April 11, 2024 • 55 mins
If you work a patrol or high drive detection dog you have either had your dog break teeth, or you will. It happens to just about every working dog team. How should you treat a broken tooth? In this episode Jeff Meyer talks to Dr. Karen Karin Bilyard - a veterinarian and Lieutenant Colonel in the U.S Army reserves with an extensive experience dealing with military working dogs.
Gain valuable insights on managing traumatic dental injuries in working dogs and implementing preventive care measures to ensure their longevity and service continuity.
To contact Jeff Meyer email him at: JeffMeyer1@outlook.com
To see more about Jeff and the classes that are offered go to: www.Policek9Training.net
Thanks to this shows sponsors:
KATS K9 Record Keeping www.katsplatinum.com
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Use Discount Code PK920 to get 20% off your order
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Use discount Code PK9TP for a free sample until April 15th
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Ray Allen K9 https://www.rayallen.com/
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For information about the Colorado K9 Conference https://coloradok9conference.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey everybody. Today, before we get to the show, just wanted to talk about a
couple things real quick.
The Colorado Canine Conference is coming up in July.
You've been hearing me talk about it. I have a webpage up, so go to coloradocanineconference.com.
Got a lot of great instructors. It's going to be a great event.
We probably will sell out. We have plenty of room right now,
(00:21):
but we'll probably sell out.
So if you think you want to come check it out, make sure you start getting your
paperwork in and get signed up.
Let me know if you need any help any reasons to
come or whatever just reach out to me and i'll tell you more about it
but coloradok9conference.com it's a going to
be a great event i'm really excited about it and also want to reach out and
thank ray allen again ray allen's been a long time friend of mine through as
(00:45):
a company through all the different businesses i've owned and again with this
podcast ray allen jumped on and they want to sponsor the podcast so not a whole
lot you can say about Ray Allen,
if you've been a dog handler for very long, you know that Ray Allen means quality.
So I like Ray Allen's products a lot. They're here in Colorado, right by us.
They're also going to sponsor the Colorado Canine Conference.
(01:07):
Just another thing that they do. And again, when Ray Allen's sponsoring shows
like this or smaller conferences like the Colorado Canine Conference,
they're doing that to support us.
So thanks to Ray Allen. Check out all their stuff.
They got a lot of new product lines coming out. So RayAllen.com,
they're big supporters of us, besides being in our business.
They go out and they give back, doing a lot of different things.
(01:30):
They're supporting a lot of different shows, a lot of different events and everything.
And again, they're not getting more name brand recognition by doing it.
They're doing it because they support us.
So one of the things I just was having a conversation with somebody about was
Ray Allen muzzles. So they're the muzzles that I use.
If you've never had a Ray Allen Ram muzzle, at least go on their website, check them out.
(01:53):
They fit better. They work better. I'm a big, big proponent of using muzzles
with patrol dogs and they're the muzzles I use.
I'm not a big fan of some other ones for different reasons, but that Ray Allen
Ram muzzle is worth checking out.
So again, thanks to Ray Allen for sponsoring this.
And then also I want to mention again, TraceID.
It's Trace ID, so they spell it Trace, and then EYE-D.
(02:17):
That's the company I've been talking about that has the wipe that you can use
to check either for narcotics or explosives.
Real simple process. Rip open the wipe, wipe it down on something.
It'll tell you if there's a presence of whatever substance you're testing for.
They have lots of different substances they test for.
It's a really cool product. They've done some demos for me.
(02:39):
I like it a lot. It's real simple. something that should
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for your training records just to check some suspect's cars
sometimes if you don't come up with any any large
amounts of of narcotics you can at least show there's residual there and then
(03:00):
for explosive dogs handlers they have lots of ways to test for residuals of
those types of products also so check out traceid.com and if you go to to their
website and you use the PK9TP,
so Police Canine Training Podcast, PK9TP, go there, check it out.
And they have an offer right now up to April 15th, where you can get a free sample sent to you.
(03:24):
So check it out and get a free sample of a cool product.
You don't have to go through your agency or write letters or anything.
They'll send it right to you.
So I appreciate you guys taking the time to listen to this. And now we're going
to get to a show I'm real excited about. Thanks.
Music.
This is the Police K-9 Training Podcast with Jeff Meyer.
(03:46):
Join us for each episode to get real-world advice from K-9 professionals who
have experience on the street.
Each episode will focus on up-to-date information that you can use on the street.
Spend about 30 minutes with us each week as part of your training day.
Our goal at Police K-9 Training is to make every K-9 team be the best they can be.
Music.
(04:12):
Welcome to the Police K-9 Training Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Meyer.
I'm excited about this program because we're going to talk about dental health
and what to do about different dental problems.
And this podcast came about because as anybody listens to my podcast or sees
me on social media or has been to my classes, I always tell everybody,
you know, I'm available.
(04:32):
So shoot me an email, shoot me a text. My phone number's out there if you want
to call me to text me is usually better,
but I like to be able to be available for anybody that's out there that if you
have questions about just about anything, if I can't answer it,
I can find somebody who can answer the question.
And if you've got that question, somebody else does. So I appreciate all the
(04:53):
support I get on this podcast and the way that I try to give back is to be real
available and answer a lot of questions.
So I get lots and lots of emails and texts and I don't mind any of them.
So one day an officer from the East Coast called me, didn't know the officer,
and he was upset because his dog had a broken tooth.
And there he was being recommended to have
an implant done on the tooth and it was gonna require the
(05:16):
dog being out of commission for quite a while and the dog was a little bit older
so he was worried that the bill might be too high and they might start talking
about retiring the dog plus you know several months of being out of service
and he asked me kind of what my opinion was and I related the story to him that early on in my career.
Lucky for me, it seemed horrible at the time, but I think getting it out of
(05:38):
the way earlier, my very first dog broke one of his canines.
And the reason I say lucky it happened earlier is because if you're working
a police dog, you either have had a broken tooth or you're going to have a broken tooth.
Because what we do with our dogs is not anything natural.
You know, when they're biting bite suits and spinning around everything,
you're putting so much pressure on the canines on these dogs. dogs.
(05:59):
I know very few long-term handlers that have not experienced at least one broken tooth.
And usually once you've broken one canine, the other one's going to break.
So early on in my career, I had a dog break a canine. I wasn't sure what was going to happen.
The vet at the time was a very, very well-respected and was one of the teaching
(06:19):
vets through CSU in Colorado.
And right off the bat, he's like, it's no big deal. We're going to do a root
canal, reshape the tooth, and he's fine and he said told me then he said the
other one will break probably within a year and when that one breaks we'll reshape
that top one too and we'll worry about the bottom ones,
that dog went on to break all four canines all in different lengths all of them
(06:41):
had root canals he reshaped them and after even after all four were broke that
dog had many many street apprehensions and he never had a single problem being
able to hold on to a suspect when he when he was biting them.
So I learned then that there's a lot of options.
And as I travel the country, I see lots and lots of dogs that have a titanium
(07:04):
tooth or some type of implant.
And then when I talked to them, it's required the dog to be out of service for
quite a while and different things that they didn't know there was other options.
So when I got the phone call from the officers asking about a broken tooth,
I said, my idea is to reshape the tooth.
He went on and researched and asked lots lots of different canine people,
(07:24):
lots of different doctors.
And he called me back and he said, hey, I found a military doctor who works
on a lot of different military dogs for the same problem.
And she also said reshaping the tooth was a viable option.
So I had him give me her contact info because I thought she,
you know, she's a military doctor, military vet, and she's working on dogs that
(07:45):
same as a police dogs and military dogs.
So I wanted to get her on and talk about vet health. health,
I'm sorry, dental health, and what to do about broken teeth and then just overall health.
So I'm pleased to announce I have Dr.
Karen Billiard here with me. And how are you today, doctor?
I'm great. Thank you. Can you tell us about your background?
(08:07):
I read your resume and it's impressive, so I'd love to share it with all of the listeners.
Yeah, absolutely. I really liked your introduction and we are definitely on
the same page as far as many different factors that you stated.
And you did have a lot of good facts in there that I'll kind of touch on as well, too.
Good. But as far as my background goes, as soon as I, you know,
(08:29):
I grew up in Illinois, knew I wanted to be a vet.
As soon as I graduated veterinary school, I direct commissioned into the U.S. Army Veterinary Corps.
And so I went to my first assignment, which was Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton in California.
And lucky for me, it was during the big surge to the Middle East.
(08:50):
So I was there from 2007 to 2009. and nine.
So we were really busy shipping dogs, at least 30 plus dogs deploying out of
there every single month.
And so as a brand new veterinarian, I just started realizing the amount of trauma
and disease that each one of these dogs going through my vet clinic had.
(09:13):
And we really don't get a lot of training in veterinary school on dentistry.
So I thought that, That, you know, this was a really knowledge gap that I didn't
know how to service these dogs before deployment and on redeployment.
And so continuing on through the military, you know, doing the many other functions
that we have to do, I continued and did two additional assignments overseas.
(09:35):
That kind of just got me more experienced with the working dogs and then also
just with trauma and tooth trauma in general. Yeah.
And at that time, the military kind of wanted me to take a different direction with my career.
And I figured at that point, if I really wanted to make a big impact on not
just military dogs, but all working dogs, I'd have to leave active duty.
(09:58):
So I went into the reserves. So I've been in the reserves now for about nine
years and pursued a small animal dental residency.
And so I completed that residency last year, which basically allows me to become
board certified as a dentist and oral maxillofacial surgeon.
(10:18):
So I practice in a private practice right now, just in Wisconsin,
just north of Lake Geneva.
And about 50% of my time is still consulting, doing procedures,
writing protocols for all the military and multipurpose canines.
But then also, you know, high interest in the civilian op canine world as well, too,
(10:40):
because there's so much knowledge that needs to be shared with all of you to
get you and your dogs kind of the best services for dental disease and dental
trauma and just educate everyone.
Outstanding. And I know when I read your resume, I believe it says you're a lieutenant colonel.
That's correct. Yep. That's awesome. Congratulations. That's quite a career
(11:02):
so far. It sounds like you're just beginning.
Thank you. Yeah. I've, I've finally reached my ultimate goal.
And so now it's just being able to share all this knowledge and get the facts out there.
So you're, you're with the U S army as a reserve.
Correct. Yes. But I guess there's something I didn't under, I didn't know you
(11:24):
went to cabin Pendleton now do a lot of the different branches of the military
go through there, or did they just put you on loan to the Marines for their dogs or how did that?
No, that's one of the best parts about our job as an Army veterinarian is that
every single branch in the military has a veterinary clinic on that installation.
(11:45):
And so the Army is the only entity that has veterinarians that practice clinical medicine.
So our assignments are worldwide.
We can go on Marine Corps bases. We can go on Navy bases. We can go on Air Force
bases, Army bases. We can go everywhere.
So it's quite a great experience.
(12:05):
So you've dealt with working dogs through every branch of the military that I imagine?
Yeah, absolutely. I actually have never been stationed on an army base.
I prefer it that way for many different reasons.
And yes, I have opinions on all the different branches and working dogs as well.
So it's really interesting, though, too, seeing the different types of training
(12:28):
and techniques each one of the different branches have as well.
And just kind of where we've come with that mindset too.
So it's really good operational kind of oversight of a lot of different entities
and how we kind of all have the same things, but have very many different things
as well too. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So I would imagine that, you know, during that time when you were at Pendleton,
(12:49):
I mean, I knew, you know, there was a lot of dogs that were coming into the
country, mostly from Europe, being trained up and then getting redeployed.
I guess, start there. What was the dogs before they went to their first deployment?
What was the overall health there? Because I know there was kind of a big machine
at that time of cranking out a lot of dogs through different countries.
(13:10):
And even the dogs I bought on a much smaller scale, the dogs I saw back then,
I don't think were quite as healthy as what I see now, because it seems like
the markets calmed down a little bit. Yeah.
I mean, to be honest, there really wasn't a stopping point.
So unless, you know, the dog had a real critical illness where they weren't
(13:32):
a capable, functional partner for that team, the dog was going to be deploying.
So as far as I relate it to oral health, it depended on how long the teams were coming through.
So if they were staying in the area for a month or two during their pre-deployment training,
I knew that I had some time in their training schedule to put the dog under
(13:54):
general anesthesia if need be and treat any teeth or oral disease that needed
done before deployment.
Oftentimes that might not have been the case where i was just basically writing
the health certificate because they were shipping out the next day and at that
point i just had to medically document it and hope that they got the care down
range based on the capabilities of the vet where they were going or it would
(14:19):
just have to wait for their redeployment back home sure,
But, I mean, you know, this all kind of stemmed just kind of my capacity in
the different, you know, roles at the different vet clinics kind of stemmed
me to really want to gather official data,
you know, because I can tell leadership and I can make recommendations or consultations
(14:42):
for, you know, dogs are breaking their teeth.
This is how they're doing it. But without having statistics and data, it's just an opinion.
Yeah. So, you know, that was one of the bigger factors, too,
to get my thoughts and my opinions more solid as far as having a publication.
And so during my dental residency, I actually was able to publish a paper.
(15:07):
And it was just published in 2023.
And it's open forum, meaning that anyone can go to the website and download the paper and read it.
But it was basically a research paper on the prevalence, so how common and the
etiology as far as how these dogs
are doing the trauma of trauma in United States military working dogs.
(15:30):
So basically, I took one year of reviewing every single working dog that had
a dental cleaning performed under general anesthesia.
And we had about 1,500 dogs that I was able to track, like exactly what teeth were broken.
How were they fixed? How did they break the teeth?
So all that data was really able to help me kind of verify and give the push.
(15:56):
Like you said, almost every handler is going to experience a broken tooth.
And this paper was able to identify that every time the dog went under for general
anesthesia, there was a 43% chance of that dog having some type of tooth trauma,
whether or not it needed treatment.
Varied as well too, but you're always, you're always going to find something.
(16:19):
And that's what I try to tell my, my handlers as well too, is that,
you know, it's not just for cleaning the teeth.
It's for identifying trauma that could be limiting their full capacity because,
you know, I, I'm not a general practitioner any longer. However, I have that experience.
(16:40):
And like I used When I was in general practice, I would tell handlers,
and I always advise handlers, try to find those individuals that know these dogs.
Because, like you know, any provider that doesn't have experience with these
dogs are going to most likely treat them like pets.
(17:02):
Exactly. So we have to have that mindset of a working dog that does X,
Y, and Z versus the Labrador that's sitting at home.
And so it's really important to find not only general practitioners,
but also veterinary dentists that do a lot of working dogs.
(17:22):
And this is kind of my soapbox too, but a working dog is such a broad category.
We're not talking about companion animals. We're not talking about pets.
You know, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So that's why I try to say operational canine. So federal entities,
law enforcement, these dogs that are usually multi-purpose dogs that are trained
(17:47):
to do some type of apprehension and some type of odor detection as well too.
Yeah. And I mean, I can give you a good example of that too,
is I was helping an agency that when their dog bit it, the drives of the dog,
everything about the dog indicated the dog should bite, have
a really nice solid bite but the dog would
bite once let go bite once let go and then
(18:08):
when I watched him he turned his mouth sideways so
he could only and what he's trying to do is bite with half of his mouth so I
told him well clearly he's got a tooth problem there's something going on here
and they told me he's been to the vet they cleaned his teeth everything was
fine didn't find anything you know and I said I'm telling you it does there's
you know the drive of the dog you You could see he's trying to bite, but he's in pain.
(18:30):
So they took him to a different vet that does a lot more police dogs in our area.
And when they put that dog out, I don't know, you obviously don't know the name
of the tooth that has the two roots in the back.
He had a slab fracture front to back on that.
And every time he would bite, that molar would open up. But the vet that looked
at it, you know, I don't think he was familiar with the dog doing this crazy stuff that we do. too.
(18:55):
So probably didn't even recognize that as a problem or, or, you know, look for it or whatever.
But once they got that tooth fix, the dog became a new dog.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, you know, always ask for a second opinion,
even with your general practitioners.
I mean, handlers have to be the advocate for these dogs. And I tell them all
the time, like, you know, you're with the dog daily, like, you know, the dog.
(19:18):
So if you know something's wrong and you get an opinion of a professional that
says everything's fine, you know,
go somewhere else or just ask somebody else for their thoughts as well, too.
We have to, you know, we really have to be their voice because they do tell us.
A lot of times with oral disease, we call it the silent disease.
Because especially with our working dogs, we're not going to see a lot of clinical finds.
(19:42):
Like you're not going to see a swelling usually on the face.
I mean, it can happen, but not usually.
I tell handlers and master trainers and, you know,
anyone in the dog world, usually you're going to see
a new dog after the
treatment's performed or we'll see
a lot of bite work issues like you just described i love
(20:03):
that and so i tell handlers you know if they're like his bite is
off he's just not used to be the best dog and now he's just not wanting to bite
i always ask them to send me a video because like you said that can tell us
a lot even if i'm not visualizing inside that dog's mouth i can see what that
dog is doing so a lot of times they'll slip They'll slip off the wrap, they'll release early.
(20:23):
Sometimes they'll chatter either when they come off the wrap.
And yeah, it's night and day after we identify a tooth issue and then treat that dog.
It's just, you know, it can create a lot of training issues I imagine as well too.
So if you have a dog with oral pain and every time that dog does bite work or
(20:44):
does something that's hurting him, he might have a bad response to what you're
asking him to do because it hurts.
And so then it becomes this conflict. Sure. And yeah, so I always recommend,
you know, we need anesthesia. And I know that can be somewhat scary.
But again, find the people that have the experience. There's nothing scary about
(21:07):
anesthesia if you have a good doctor team and you have a good team.
Facility that knows what they're doing. And I know that's hard for everyone
to identify, but ask around word of mouth and talking to other handlers in your
area is definitely, you know, kind of the feedback that you get from others is good as well too.
(21:27):
But we, we really need to see their mouths without them trying to bite us without a muzzle on.
And we really need to get eyes on under anesthesia and x-rays.
And I will tell you, a lot of general practices do not have dental x-rays or
they're not comfortable interpreting dental x-rays. So that's another thing.
(21:49):
We're only seeing a quarter of the tooth looking in the mouth.
Most of the tooth structure and the bone structure and the force where you're
going to get this bite from is usually the roots of the tooth and the jaws and the bones.
So we really need to take dental x-rays of every tooth just to identify any
other problems that we're not seeing.
(22:09):
So is it difficult to find, you know, in different cities across the country,
is it difficult to find an actual, you know, veterinarian that's a dentist?
Yeah, it really varies by state. But if you go to the dental website,
so there's the dental website, it's called American Veterinary Dental College, AVDC.
(22:31):
You can go to their website and just type in your location and it will show
you everywhere that there's a boarded veterinary dentist.
So each state usually has one or two, depending on where you're at.
It might entail travel, but start, you know, start with your general practice,
your regular vet, see if they have oral radiographs.
(22:51):
If they take dental radiographs and you want another opinion,
you could always have your vet send them to the veterinary dentist that's local to you or to myself.
I'm happy to offer that as well too. but if they take the x-rays and do an oral exam.
Someone else can at least get a second eyes on that to see how, how that looks to them.
(23:12):
Yeah. And I think it's probably important to note you already touched base on it.
You know, you might be a vet that, that is part of, you know, a dentist and all that.
But again, if that, if that vet doesn't have a lot of experience with working
dogs, is it going to take a little bit of just conversation with them?
Because obviously they'll see it on the radiographs, but on the x-rays,
(23:33):
but would not just every vet's going to understand to the degree that you're
speaking about with kind of what we do and the damage that we can do to a dog's mouth.
Yeah. And I will tell you, and I, when I lecture, I let everyone know too.
I mean, if we're talking about apprehension, your dog needs about 10 teeth in
(23:53):
his mouth to do a initial grip advancement as far as a deep bite and hold.
And there's identified, and I highlight it on every dental chart,
it's all four of the canines, top and bottom, and then it's the upper fourth
premolar and the lower mandibular M1.
So those are the carnasial teeth in the back. So anytime a working dog has fractures to those teeth,
(24:19):
we always try to save the teeth, meaning that if there is a fracture and there's pulp exposure,
that the blood supply and the nerves are exposed to the mouth,
the oral cavity, that dog either needs a root canal or an extraction because open pulp means pain.
(24:39):
That means that there's nerves in there that's going to eventually die.
It's going to eventually most likely get infected.
So that treatment option is either a root canal or an extraction.
And there's 10 to 12 teeth in a working dog's mouth that I never extract.
I mean, sometimes they're broken way beyond me even fixing.
(25:02):
I mean, I like the challenge of
repairing and keeping that dog in service because it's not just the cost.
We have to think about the amount of dog days down. Exactly.
And so in the military, that's huge.
So when we talk about extraction, depending on what type of tooth it is,
extraction can be out of work for anywhere from two to four weeks for that surgical site to heal.
(25:29):
Whereas the beauty of a root canal is they're
back to work almost the very next day because we don't
we don't remove any of that bone we don't remove tooth structure we
basically keep the tooth as is they're back to work
the next day so those are really the importance of understanding the treatment
options and kind of knowing the follow-up to what those treatments are and i
(25:51):
know that that's going to be the you know as i start to publish this podcast
that's going to be what's It's going to draw a lot of people to listen to this because, again,
you know, if you've never had a dog with a broken canine, you work a patrol dog, you will.
And if you have, you know, you've probably had different experience.
So let's talk about broken canines because I think that's, you know,
we'll talk about the other teeth too.
(26:12):
But broken canine, I come to you, my dog say, you know, pick whatever you want.
Three-year-old Malinois, fairly young dog, patrol dog, dual-purpose dog,
whatever it is, patrol dog. dog,
broken canine, top right canine is broken halfway down, pulp is exposed.
You know, I know the options would be like a root canal or an implant or whatever.
(26:34):
So can you kind of go over the options and what the pros and cons are that people would be hearing?
Yeah, absolutely. And I have handouts on all this as well, too.
I do have a working dog handout that I'm happy to send or make available online.
It just kind of describes all these treatment options as well,
too, and why it's important for working dogs.
As far as choosing, but yeah. So when you come to see me with your,
(26:59):
your Malinois or whatever you have, I'm going to need a lot of history.
So what's really important too, and this is why I don't like protocols and flow
charts because the military, you know, we try to standardize everything too.
And I tried to tell them dentistry can't be put in a box.
Like I need to know, Is your Malinois a cage chewer?
(27:22):
Does he try to destroy the back of the vehicle when you leave the squad?
Does he chew on rocks in the backyard? I kind of need to know his habit.
Number one, how is he traumatizing his teeth? What is he doing?
Is he a tug? Does he tug really hard? What kind of toys are you using for a reward?
(27:42):
Oftentimes, you know, those toy rewards are what's causing a lot of the wear
or the trauma on their teeth.
So I kind of talk with the handler, get to know the dog, get to know the handler,
kind of their routine, what they do so that I can start thinking about what's
going to be, you know, the best treatment for this dog.
Basically, once the dog's under anesthesia, I look at the rest of the teeth
because that helps me decide what's going to be best.
(28:04):
And then I also have to understand the dog's job and the handler's job,
you know, as far as like their operational requirements, their,
you know, what kind of the goals of the department.
Young dog, yeah, we get, you know, a young dog has a lot longer career and they
want to keep the dog in service as long as possible.
But, you know, old dogs is a number two. I mean, really, age isn't too much
(28:29):
of a factor when it comes to teeth.
But for a dog that just has, let's say this was just a random incident where
the decoy kind of jabbed the dog and the tooth just split in half.
And all the rest of the teeth looked perfect. It was just kind of a freak accident.
What I would tell this young dog is that my recommendation would most likely
(28:51):
be definitely a root canal.
And then I would talk with the handler about a crown, so a cap,
a metal crown, or just the root canal.
And that leads a whole other discussion of why.
But what we do know about canine teeth is that when one canine tooth fractures,
(29:13):
exactly like you said, you're almost
likely to have another canine tooth fracture within the year or two.
So it's kind of like this downward spiral. viral and how I explain it to handlers
is think of the biomechanics of the bite.
So we want everything to be level. You know, if your dog bites with his head
tilted to the right, you might develop some issues in the jaw or the muscles
(29:35):
in the back of the jaw because he's not balanced and he doesn't have a good solid grip.
But when you have a shorter canine, so let's say you have a short canine,
the other three are normal length, you're more likely going to have compensation
on those other canines now.
So that shorter canine is kind of protected.
Now the other canines are doing most of the work. And so they're likely some
(29:56):
sort of tug and pull are potentially going to fracture as well too.
Not always, but it just depends on kind of the dog and the biomechanics of that dog's head.
So I always recommend root canal and a crown.
And what I will tell you is is that it's not always a requirement.
(30:16):
It depends on the dog and it depends on the dog's job.
The benefits that I see of a crown, and this is another discussion too,
but the benefits that I see of a crown is that.
Goal of the crown is protecting that tooth
so that tooth that dog can no
longer feel that tooth so he can sit
(30:36):
there and crunch on something and never feel it yeah so
basically the enamel around that tooth can
still chip away we haven't prevented him from
hurting that tooth again or breaking that tooth
again the other thing that i like
is that my crown lab we've done a lot
of discussions and you know dentistry
(30:58):
has come a long way in the last 20 years it's a
brand new specialty and profession and i
think i know crowns get a bad opinion
and a bad reputation and i absolutely understand that
because of the fact that i think previously
before we started thinking about the biomechanics of the
dog's mouth we wanted this really tall sharp long
(31:20):
looking you know dagger tooth that looked
so scary and so a lot of the dentists
at that time were building the
crown up or making the metal cap as
long and curved as it was previously to the tooth fracturing so if you can just
imagine now you have this longer piece of metal and it's a big lever point so
(31:44):
now you've just created the perfect tooth to break off at the gum line because
you created this huge lever.
So that's a no-go as far as rebuilding the tooth up or making the crown longer
than the actual tooth is.
And then the other no-go, and this is my personal opinion, this has nothing
to do, pretty much everything I say has nothing to do with the military or my
(32:07):
private practice stance. This is my personal opinion.
But my opinion is that titanium metal is too hard for working dogs. Right.
And so if you've seen titanium metal crowns, and I know caps are kind of the
synonym that I hear throughout the police world, but the titanium crown is like a concrete brick.
(32:27):
It is tough and you are never going to get that off.
And what's going to happen is that when that dog pushes something or bites something
or tries to grab and tug that tooth, that titanium tooth is going to break off
at the gum line because it's such a hard metal.
Yeah, it's stronger than the tooth.
(32:49):
Exactly. So talking to my crown lab, who we use, and talking to other experts
in the field, we use a softer metal.
It's a softer, flexible metal because, again, the job of that crown is to protect that tooth.
It's helping restore that tooth and keep it the same exact structure as it is the day I put it on.
So that tooth with a silver alloy metal has a little bit more flexibility.
(33:12):
It's a little bit softer. And so it can do the things we're asking that dog's
mouth to do without traumatizing or breaking.
And so I have not, within the last couple of years of where I currently am at,
I have not had a tooth ever fracture at the gum line ever.
Again, because I think a lot of the thought process has to go into the right
(33:33):
treatment plan for the right dog.
It's not the right answer for every dog. It just really depends.
And that makes sense. What is the success ratio like with your real active military dogs?
And I know, especially in the environment that a lot of the military dogs are,
the kennel chewing's real prevalent and all that, so I know that that's gotta be a huge challenge.
(33:53):
So when you've put one of these crowns on the dogs.
How often does that crown come off? Or, I mean, is that usually,
is that the end of the problem with that tooth?
And you just wait for the other ones or is it, does it take care of the problem?
I guess that's my question.
Right. So the question, yeah. So I have never had one break off at the gum line.
(34:14):
If it does, most of the time that tooth is probably done.
Yeah. Meaning we leave it, we can either leave it intact with just the root
canal there and reshape it.
Just kind of, you know, clinically clean it up.
Yeah. or we extract that too. So that has never occurred.
What I have had happen once on a civilian dog and once on a special operations
(34:36):
dog was the metal cap, the crown just popping off.
So for some reason, well, I know the reasons, both of these dogs were heavy cage chewers.
One of the dog was in a boarding facility while the handler was on leave.
And the other dog is a cage chewer in his regular environment.
So at some point that crown just got
weakened and weakened and then weekend and then that dog just hit
(34:59):
it at the right angle where it just popped right off so that
the tooth itself was still fine so for
the special operations dog i haven't seen that dog back he's
pretty busy right now so he's just living his life without that metal crown
doing everything the other police dog he found actually a boarding facility
found the crown so we just cleaned it up and re-cemented it back on okay so
(35:22):
both of them are still functional no problems moving forward with having that treatment performed.
Okay. And let's touch base on implants.
Is that anything that you ever recommend or do? No.
Yeah. And I will forewarn you, it's a very highly debatable topic in the veterinary
world as well too, but implants really have no place for our pets and our working dogs.
(35:47):
And the reason I say that is because to truly do an implant,
and what that means is if any if you guys have had regular dental work or had
an implant on your own, it basically means that the tooth is extracted.
So the broken tooth is extracted.
There's a screw like a metal rod that gets put up into the bone where the tooth
(36:08):
normally was supposed to sit.
The bone then has to heal around that implant site.
And then the final tooth gets screwed into that implant site.
So the whole process is about a four to six month process where the dog cannot work.
Yeah. So to me, that's not an option. I mean, who wants a working dog sitting around for six months?
(36:32):
So it's, it's not an option. If we do a good job and keep the rest of their
43 teeth healthy or 41 teeth healthy, you know, whichever, then they'll be fine.
Yeah. So I would, I would never offer an implant, especially for a working dog.
Glad you said that but i i travel a lot and i actually see it and i don't know.
(36:53):
You know i don't know if that's a what the motivation
is or you know just the vets that don't quite
understand or whatever but i do see i do see
i talk to handlers who who their dog's been out of work for
you know three or four or five months and they're trying to
get the teeth fixed and and i you know i'm
not i'm not sure because a lot of times words get you know
(37:15):
words get labeled and correctly i
know when i was stationed in europe when i was
in the military i know the german military at that time i
believe were putting posts and crowns in
the dogs that had root canals performed so i know this is a lot of lingo that
yeah doesn't mean much but but basically it wasn't an implant but they were
(37:37):
doing a post inside of their metal crown yeah so So there's different nomenclature
for different treatments.
I wouldn't doubt that there's veterinary dentists doing implants.
I know that some papers have been published on it.
Mostly it had been like in pets or incisors.
(37:58):
But I would love to know. So if you come across any that say that that's what's
going on, I'm happy to be put in contact with them.
Because I'm willing to learn as well, too. I mean, I don't, I don't know everything.
So if there's something more that I need to know, I'm happy to.
And, and maybe it was like a post in crown, but even that will,
(38:19):
is going to keep the dog out of work for a decent amount of time. Right.
Yeah, you know, I will tell you too, that's why location is everything. Location, location.
We actually, we have a really wonderful setup.
We have a crown lab that can turn around my crowns within six to seven days.
So what that means is that working dog comes with a broken tooth.
(38:43):
He has his root canal done. A week later, he has his crown put on.
A day later, he's back to work. So he's out for a total of like seven days.
And we have really highlighted that key feature to the point that,
you know, military soft, any of these high operational seal dogs,
any of these dogs that don't have a lot of time to sit around and get better,
(39:06):
they fly their handlers TDY with their dogs just for a week to get all this out at one time. Nice.
Just because, again, it's just operationally more efficient than sometimes going locally.
And I don't mean to put you on the spot, but is it financially more efficient
too? Is it, I mean, can you give me a rough idea?
(39:27):
I know that prices vary all over the country, but for a handler who's facing
this at different parts of the country, can you, is there, is there any way
to even give a general idea what, what that, the price range of that should be? I mean, maybe. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It varies so much from geographic location.
I would say in my area, we're kind of in rural Midwest Wisconsin,
(39:48):
my area, a root canal and a crown on a canine tooth, you know,
with the specialists in my area, I know that it ranges anywhere from 3,000 to 4,600.
So that would kind of be the Midwest area. I know on the East Coast or in California,
so to say, that it could range anywhere from 4,000 to 8,000,
(40:11):
depending on where you're at.
So it's not unheard of for SEAL teams to come up from California and get four
crowns placed on their dog for the same price it would cost one in California.
And again, that's not even cost savings for the government. That's just efficiency operational means.
(40:31):
To be honest, the money doesn't matter to them. Yeah, so if you just did a root
canal and reshape the tooth, is that gonna be significant cost savings?
Not so much. I mean, I want to say our cost, you know, in private practice, it will be cheaper.
(40:52):
So it's most likely it should be cheaper because, you know, the crown,
it takes a lot of skill to to to shape the crown, to make an impression of the
crown, use the crown lab.
So it's a whole nother process and a whole nother procedure.
So, yeah, it should be pretty, you know, cost savings, I would say could range
anywhere from $700 to $3,000 if you don't have the crown put on. Yeah.
(41:19):
And the reason I ask is, I mean, I have listeners all over the country and that comes into play.
I was doing a class one time and a handler had a dog that the tooth broke.
And when he went back and talked to the sheriff and once they got the prices
and everything, the sheriff just lost his mind.
It was going to blow his budget for lots of different things because very small agency.
(41:40):
So, you know, that definitely comes into play. So the reason I bring it up is
that, I mean, I guess that's one more reason why, you know, it's good for handlers
to know they can reach out, you know, different people all over the country,
even if that's not going to be the doctor who's going to treat their dog.
They can at least get some informed decisions and figure out what the options are.
And sometimes, you know, and luckily there's some charities now that will help
(42:03):
with vet bills. But, you know, if you're a handler that works for a real small
agency in a rural area, you know, I know that money can be an issue.
So when we start talking $4,000 or $5,000 for one tooth, that gets to be a little cringy for some guys.
Yeah, I know. It's sad sometimes, the budget.
And I know a lot of the law enforcement do have to do a lot of fundraisers or,
(42:26):
you know, try to support their dog for the care that they need.
But you know it's a whole nother that's a
whole nother podcast so let's talk about the other teeth too in the mouth i
mean we've talked a lot about uh the canines but uh you know like i know a couple
times i've had dogs where they had to pull a couple of the front teeth do they
(42:49):
have any real purpose other than i had dogs that kind of look like hillbillies when they're done but.
Is is that a big deal if you have to pull them in between the canines no i mean
those those those incisors are, you know, yes, they serve a purpose,
but the dog is still functional to do what we have asked them to do.
The, what I will say is that if, if a working dog has an upper third incisor
(43:13):
tooth, so the top of the jaw, the incisor right next to the canine tooth,
that tooth is actually a really large tooth.
So if I have working dogs that come in with that tooth fractured,
I always recommend root canal of that tooth as well.
So the upper third incisor is the one right next to the upper canine.
In between the two canines? Yes.
(43:36):
Yeah, it's the one in the front right next to the canine. Yeah.
But surprisingly, and I don't know, I'm trying to figure out,
in my study, the two most common teeth that were fractured in the military working
dog was the second incisor on the top of the right and the left.
If you can visualize, they have three on the right side, three on the left.
(43:59):
So the very middle incisor is the most common tooth that a working dog fractures.
And then it's his upper canines. So his upper right and left canine are kind
of the four teeth that our working dogs most commonly fracture.
And in your study, was that a combination of single purpose detection dogs or
were they all dogs that do some type of patrol work and do bite work?
(44:21):
It was broken down. I think we had like 11 different categories.
So it was single purpose, it was dual purpose, and that brings up a good kind of shocker.
I was able to actually identify that our non-patrol dogs, so our dogs not doing
any patrol work, actually fractured their teeth more than patrol dogs, which blew my mind.
(44:43):
But during that timeframe, we did have a lot of SSD dogs, specialized search dogs.
So again, these are dogs that are still high drive.
I have a lot of theories on why that is, but also their housing environment
is so different compared to the law enforcement or some of the federal agencies.
So that plays into a lot as well too.
(45:05):
And most of those dogs assume there were, I mean, even if they were single purpose
dogs are most of them either shepherds, Malinois or Dutchies or.
Yes. Yes. A hundred percent shepherds or mouse.
Okay. So no floppy or Labradors or. No, no. Okay. Yeah.
What about the other teeth, like going back behind the canines?
(45:25):
Do you see problems with those? Like I mentioned, the one dog that I saw had
a slab fracture. Is that very common? Yeah.
Yeah. So actually, the upper fourth premolar, so the teeth, I'm usually used
to doing a presentation, so I'm trying to point and you can't see it.
But yeah, the upper fourth premolar
is the bigger tooth on the top of the right and left of their jaw.
(45:48):
That tooth is actually the most common tooth in our pet's fracture.
Fracture so working dogs almost always fracture teeth
in the front like their canines and incisors pets always
fracture their back upper fourth premolar some working
dogs do and it's usually because handlers are giving them things
they're not supposed to have so hard bones are the most common things that our
(46:09):
pets fracture that upper fourth tooth on that's your typical slab fracture so
hard bones like bully sticks i know that yeah it's a little controversial but
antlers bully Foley sticks, butcher bones,
the dogs take those hard.
Yeah, they do make a different kind of variety, like a softer variety.
(46:30):
But hard bones where the dog just sits and crunches and puts that toy and that
bone in the back of his mouth, that's how you're going to get the slab fracture
of the upper fourth pre-buller.
That's a very significant tooth. It's a three-rooted tooth.
So that tooth and then the lower mandibular molar, that's a huge tooth.
And that's a very important tooth as well, too.
(46:51):
That tooth, they also break on chewing on inappropriate things. Yeah.
That was, I mean, I learned that from the folks at Kong that a lot of those
toys, the hard plastic ones, are seasoned or flavored with different things
to make the dogs want them.
And toys like Kong, it's the shape of it and the feel of it and everything that
(47:13):
gets dogs that want to do it. But so you don't, I mean, I don't think we talk
enough about using the right toy for your dogs.
Yeah. Well, we might need a second podcast. Yeah. I think that would be really good.
Yeah. We haven't even touched on dental disease, like all that calculus and stinky dental disease.
Yeah. You know. And I think we, yeah, I think we do need to probably do another
(47:36):
podcast because I want to talk about that. Yeah.
You know, and I know that there's a connection, and I think most handlers know,
but I'd like you to maybe go into a little more detail about the connection,
about how that's going to affect their nose at the same time.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a huge one. And actually, that would fit really well
with dental disease as far as all the bacteria and stuff that's now into the nasal passage.
(48:00):
And that's a huge, huge interest right now for a lot of the research industry
as far as olfactory goes and odor detection.
And I have made the link and we do know that infected tooth roots and dental
disease can affect odor detection.
And so that, you know, now looking back, thinking about all those dogs that
(48:22):
I deployed down range, sniffing explosives with potential decreased odor threshold.
I mean, that's just a catastrophic thought.
And I don't want to think that. But now we know more and we know better and we can do better.
But yeah, that's definitely something to touch on because it is an issue and it can be an issue.
(48:43):
Well, I'm looking forward to that. We'll bring you back on very soon.
So if you're listening to this podcast and you like this, know that I'll be
talking to the doctor very soon again.
So when you're listening to this, if you have questions, shoot them to me and
shoot me an email and I'll bring up any questions on that podcast.
And we'll probably be putting that out here sooner rather than later,
(49:03):
because I think it's a fascinating topic.
I think it's an important topic. And I'm so happy to find someone with your
experience and knowledge base that's specializing in teeth.
So I sure appreciate you taking the time. We traded some emails and texts to get this going.
And I know you're a busy person. So thank you very much for taking the time.
(49:23):
And I'm looking forward to our next podcast, which will be very soon, I hope.
Yeah, of course. And we can also talk about, I just want to put it out there
because this might spark some interest with the handlers as well, too.
So my practice is really starting to employ preventative care of tooth fracture.
So what that means is that when you have those working dogs,
(49:46):
let's say you got it from the vendor or they're just horrible cage chewers,
they already have really significant wear along the backside of those canine teeth.
Those are almost inevitably going to fracture.
And so for a lot of our highly operational dogs that don't have a lot of downtime
and they don't want to worry about when they're deployed or whatnot with a fractured
(50:07):
tooth, when certain dogs meet that criteria,
we're actually doing a crown shortening procedure where we remove a little height
of that canine tooth to make it less fractured. Yeah.
Resistant we make it we make it more fracture resistant by shortening
the height of that tooth and then we put a metal crown on top of
(50:29):
it preventatively so we'll do that on two canines
we'll do that on four depending on the dog you know it's not it's
it's not for any particular reason other than we know the dog's going to fracture
a tooth let's just get on top of it now keep the tooth alive that's the other
thing to talk about we don't do a root canal we do something called a vital
pulp which keeps the tooth alive because that is the most important thing is
(50:52):
to to keep the teeth alive,
and then we crown it to prevent the dog from fracturing the tooth in the future.
That's interesting. And we've been very, very successful with that.
So a handler could do that when they're on vacation or something,
and the dog won't really miss much downtime.
Well, and same thing. They're down for a week at my facility.
Perfect. So I do all four of them. They're down for a week, and they're back to work.
(51:15):
But yeah, next time. Yeah, for sure.
We'll be doing a few. So if you have questions, send them to me and I'll pass
them on to the doctor and we're going to get her back on very soon.
So again, thanks for all your time and I'm looking forward to the future shows.
Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm really excited about this. It's been a long time
to learn and kind of advance the education of our dogs and so they deserve it
(51:40):
and I'm happy to be on more frequently.
Outstanding. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. Thank you.
Well, that's going to wrap it up for this show. I was excited about this show before we did it.
Now that we've finished the show and we got to talk to the doctor,
I'm excited about this show coming out.
And then I'm excited about bringing the doctor back on and talking to her more
about some of these other topics that we just talked about.
(52:03):
So it's fun that I get to do this and find experts in the field and then sit
down and pick their brains.
So I couldn't do that without the support that you guys give me by listening
to it and then the support from our sponsors. There's a couple more of our sponsors
that I wanted to reach out and thank again today.
CATS, so CATS is Canine Activity Tracking System, KTS.
Check out catsplatinum.com. You've heard me talk about it for the last several months.
(52:27):
Bob Eden is the proprietor of CATS. He's the one who started a lot of different
things in our industry, and record-keeping on a computer was something that Bob started.
He's been doing it the longest. He has an outstanding program.
Customer service is great. You
can get a free trial, look around the whole product, see if you like it.
You can change so much stuff about cats and make it your own program very easily.
(52:52):
It's a really well thought out program, works really well. The technology behind
it is outstanding and he's always improving it.
And when you need anything, you can reach out to Bob himself.
It's not a big company and he's taking care of all the customer service and very approachable guy.
So you can hit him up about the company and maybe pick his brain on some dog training stuff.
(53:13):
So again, thanks to Bob and Katz for sponsoring the show.
So check out katzplatinum.com.
And then finally, we've been talking about Fox and Hound. They're a good company.
They have good products, a lot of natural stuff, soaps and kennel cleaners, those types of things.
Go to shopfoxandhound.com, shopfoxandhound.com and check out all the stuff they have.
(53:38):
And like I've been mentioning, it's clearly, you know, their big business probably
is more pets and stuff, but they really support what we do, and they support working dogs.
So I like that Oscar Kennel Cleaner a lot. So go on there, check out that Oscar Kennel Cleaner.
You can keep your car smelling a lot better and a lot cleaner,
which is then you can keep your dog a lot cleaner just by spending a few minutes
(54:00):
cleaning out your dog kennel in your car every day.
Pretty easy to do when you have the right equipment. So, check out shopfoxandhound.com,
and when you're on there, you can see that they have the Fox and Hound Foundation,
which is supporting what we do.
So, the foundation is doing all kinds of things for police dogs and working dogs.
(54:20):
They're doing a lot of good work. They're supporting different dogs in retirement, medical stuff.
It's a great foundation, and they're doing it all through proceeds from their company.
So, again, companies like Fox and Hound that are supporting us are always going
to be near and dear to me. So I appreciate their support. Thank you guys for
listening and have a safe.
Music.
Hey everybody. Today, before we get to the show, just wanted to talk about a
couple things real quick.
The Colorado Canine Conference is coming up in July.
You've been hearing me talk about it. I have a webpage up, so go to coloradocanineconference.com.
Got a lot of great instructors. It's going to be a great event.
We probably will sell out. We have plenty of room right now,
(00:21):
but we'll probably sell out.
So if you think you want to come check it out, make sure you start getting your
paperwork in and get signed up.
Let me know if you need any help any reasons to
come or whatever just reach out to me and i'll tell you more about it
but coloradok9conference.com it's a going to
be a great event i'm really excited about it and also want to reach out and
thank ray allen again ray allen's been a long time friend of mine through as
(00:45):
a company through all the different businesses i've owned and again with this
podcast ray allen jumped on and they want to sponsor the podcast so not a whole
lot you can say about Ray Allen,
if you've been a dog handler for very long, you know that Ray Allen means quality.
So I like Ray Allen's products a lot. They're here in Colorado, right by us.
They're also going to sponsor the Colorado Canine Conference.
(01:07):
Just another thing that they do. And again, when Ray Allen's sponsoring shows
like this or smaller conferences like the Colorado Canine Conference,
they're doing that to support us.
So thanks to Ray Allen. Check out all their stuff.
They got a lot of new product lines coming out. So RayAllen.com,
they're big supporters of us, besides being in our business.
They go out and they give back, doing a lot of different things.
(01:30):
They're supporting a lot of different shows, a lot of different events and everything.
And again, they're not getting more name brand recognition by doing it.
They're doing it because they support us.
So one of the things I just was having a conversation with somebody about was
Ray Allen muzzles. So they're the muzzles that I use.
If you've never had a Ray Allen Ram muzzle, at least go on their website, check them out.
(01:53):
They fit better. They work better. I'm a big, big proponent of using muzzles
with patrol dogs and they're the muzzles I use.
I'm not a big fan of some other ones for different reasons, but that Ray Allen
Ram muzzle is worth checking out.
So again, thanks to Ray Allen for sponsoring this.
And then also I want to mention again, TraceID.
It's Trace ID, so they spell it Trace, and then EYE-D.
(02:17):
That's the company I've been talking about that has the wipe that you can use
to check either for narcotics or explosives.
Real simple process. Rip open the wipe, wipe it down on something.
It'll tell you if there's a presence of whatever substance you're testing for.
They have lots of different substances they test for.
It's a really cool product. They've done some demos for me.
(02:39):
I like it a lot. It's real simple. something that should
probably be in every dog handler's car just to
have whether you're if you're an arc dog handler obviously it's good
for your training records just to check some suspect's cars
sometimes if you don't come up with any any large
amounts of of narcotics you can at least show there's residual there and then
(03:00):
for explosive dogs handlers they have lots of ways to test for residuals of
those types of products also so check out traceid.com and if you go to to their
website and you use the PK9TP,
so Police Canine Training Podcast, PK9TP, go there, check it out.
And they have an offer right now up to April 15th, where you can get a free sample sent to you.
(03:24):
So check it out and get a free sample of a cool product.
You don't have to go through your agency or write letters or anything.
They'll send it right to you.
So I appreciate you guys taking the time to listen to this. And now we're going
to get to a show I'm real excited about. Thanks.
Music.
This is the Police K-9 Training Podcast with Jeff Meyer.
(03:46):
Join us for each episode to get real-world advice from K-9 professionals who
have experience on the street.
Each episode will focus on up-to-date information that you can use on the street.
Spend about 30 minutes with us each week as part of your training day.
Our goal at Police K-9 Training is to make every K-9 team be the best they can be.
Music.
(04:12):
Welcome to the Police K-9 Training Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Meyer.
I'm excited about this program because we're going to talk about dental health
and what to do about different dental problems.
And this podcast came about because as anybody listens to my podcast or sees
me on social media or has been to my classes, I always tell everybody,
you know, I'm available.
(04:32):
So shoot me an email, shoot me a text. My phone number's out there if you want
to call me to text me is usually better,
but I like to be able to be available for anybody that's out there that if you
have questions about just about anything, if I can't answer it,
I can find somebody who can answer the question.
And if you've got that question, somebody else does. So I appreciate all the
(04:53):
support I get on this podcast and the way that I try to give back is to be real
available and answer a lot of questions.
So I get lots and lots of emails and texts and I don't mind any of them.
So one day an officer from the East Coast called me, didn't know the officer,
and he was upset because his dog had a broken tooth.
And there he was being recommended to have
an implant done on the tooth and it was gonna require the
(05:16):
dog being out of commission for quite a while and the dog was a little bit older
so he was worried that the bill might be too high and they might start talking
about retiring the dog plus you know several months of being out of service
and he asked me kind of what my opinion was and I related the story to him that early on in my career.
Lucky for me, it seemed horrible at the time, but I think getting it out of
(05:38):
the way earlier, my very first dog broke one of his canines.
And the reason I say lucky it happened earlier is because if you're working
a police dog, you either have had a broken tooth or you're going to have a broken tooth.
Because what we do with our dogs is not anything natural.
You know, when they're biting bite suits and spinning around everything,
you're putting so much pressure on the canines on these dogs. dogs.
(05:59):
I know very few long-term handlers that have not experienced at least one broken tooth.
And usually once you've broken one canine, the other one's going to break.
So early on in my career, I had a dog break a canine. I wasn't sure what was going to happen.
The vet at the time was a very, very well-respected and was one of the teaching
(06:19):
vets through CSU in Colorado.
And right off the bat, he's like, it's no big deal. We're going to do a root
canal, reshape the tooth, and he's fine and he said told me then he said the
other one will break probably within a year and when that one breaks we'll reshape
that top one too and we'll worry about the bottom ones,
that dog went on to break all four canines all in different lengths all of them
(06:41):
had root canals he reshaped them and after even after all four were broke that
dog had many many street apprehensions and he never had a single problem being
able to hold on to a suspect when he when he was biting them.
So I learned then that there's a lot of options.
And as I travel the country, I see lots and lots of dogs that have a titanium
(07:04):
tooth or some type of implant.
And then when I talked to them, it's required the dog to be out of service for
quite a while and different things that they didn't know there was other options.
So when I got the phone call from the officers asking about a broken tooth,
I said, my idea is to reshape the tooth.
He went on and researched and asked lots lots of different canine people,
(07:24):
lots of different doctors.
And he called me back and he said, hey, I found a military doctor who works
on a lot of different military dogs for the same problem.
And she also said reshaping the tooth was a viable option.
So I had him give me her contact info because I thought she,
you know, she's a military doctor, military vet, and she's working on dogs that
(07:45):
same as a police dogs and military dogs.
So I wanted to get her on and talk about vet health. health,
I'm sorry, dental health, and what to do about broken teeth and then just overall health.
So I'm pleased to announce I have Dr.
Karen Billiard here with me. And how are you today, doctor?
I'm great. Thank you. Can you tell us about your background?
(08:07):
I read your resume and it's impressive, so I'd love to share it with all of the listeners.
Yeah, absolutely. I really liked your introduction and we are definitely on
the same page as far as many different factors that you stated.
And you did have a lot of good facts in there that I'll kind of touch on as well, too.
Good. But as far as my background goes, as soon as I, you know,
(08:29):
I grew up in Illinois, knew I wanted to be a vet.
As soon as I graduated veterinary school, I direct commissioned into the U.S. Army Veterinary Corps.
And so I went to my first assignment, which was Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton in California.
And lucky for me, it was during the big surge to the Middle East.
(08:50):
So I was there from 2007 to 2009. and nine.
So we were really busy shipping dogs, at least 30 plus dogs deploying out of
there every single month.
And so as a brand new veterinarian, I just started realizing the amount of trauma
and disease that each one of these dogs going through my vet clinic had.
(09:13):
And we really don't get a lot of training in veterinary school on dentistry.
So I thought that, That, you know, this was a really knowledge gap that I didn't
know how to service these dogs before deployment and on redeployment.
And so continuing on through the military, you know, doing the many other functions
that we have to do, I continued and did two additional assignments overseas.
(09:35):
That kind of just got me more experienced with the working dogs and then also
just with trauma and tooth trauma in general. Yeah.
And at that time, the military kind of wanted me to take a different direction with my career.
And I figured at that point, if I really wanted to make a big impact on not
just military dogs, but all working dogs, I'd have to leave active duty.
(09:58):
So I went into the reserves. So I've been in the reserves now for about nine
years and pursued a small animal dental residency.
And so I completed that residency last year, which basically allows me to become
board certified as a dentist and oral maxillofacial surgeon.
(10:18):
So I practice in a private practice right now, just in Wisconsin,
just north of Lake Geneva.
And about 50% of my time is still consulting, doing procedures,
writing protocols for all the military and multipurpose canines.
But then also, you know, high interest in the civilian op canine world as well, too,
(10:40):
because there's so much knowledge that needs to be shared with all of you to
get you and your dogs kind of the best services for dental disease and dental
trauma and just educate everyone.
Outstanding. And I know when I read your resume, I believe it says you're a lieutenant colonel.
That's correct. Yep. That's awesome. Congratulations. That's quite a career
(11:02):
so far. It sounds like you're just beginning.
Thank you. Yeah. I've, I've finally reached my ultimate goal.
And so now it's just being able to share all this knowledge and get the facts out there.
So you're, you're with the U S army as a reserve.
Correct. Yes. But I guess there's something I didn't under, I didn't know you
(11:24):
went to cabin Pendleton now do a lot of the different branches of the military
go through there, or did they just put you on loan to the Marines for their dogs or how did that?
No, that's one of the best parts about our job as an Army veterinarian is that
every single branch in the military has a veterinary clinic on that installation.
(11:45):
And so the Army is the only entity that has veterinarians that practice clinical medicine.
So our assignments are worldwide.
We can go on Marine Corps bases. We can go on Navy bases. We can go on Air Force
bases, Army bases. We can go everywhere.
So it's quite a great experience.
(12:05):
So you've dealt with working dogs through every branch of the military that I imagine?
Yeah, absolutely. I actually have never been stationed on an army base.
I prefer it that way for many different reasons.
And yes, I have opinions on all the different branches and working dogs as well.
So it's really interesting, though, too, seeing the different types of training
(12:28):
and techniques each one of the different branches have as well.
And just kind of where we've come with that mindset too.
So it's really good operational kind of oversight of a lot of different entities
and how we kind of all have the same things, but have very many different things
as well too. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So I would imagine that, you know, during that time when you were at Pendleton,
(12:49):
I mean, I knew, you know, there was a lot of dogs that were coming into the
country, mostly from Europe, being trained up and then getting redeployed.
I guess, start there. What was the dogs before they went to their first deployment?
What was the overall health there? Because I know there was kind of a big machine
at that time of cranking out a lot of dogs through different countries.
(13:10):
And even the dogs I bought on a much smaller scale, the dogs I saw back then,
I don't think were quite as healthy as what I see now, because it seems like
the markets calmed down a little bit. Yeah.
I mean, to be honest, there really wasn't a stopping point.
So unless, you know, the dog had a real critical illness where they weren't
(13:32):
a capable, functional partner for that team, the dog was going to be deploying.
So as far as I relate it to oral health, it depended on how long the teams were coming through.
So if they were staying in the area for a month or two during their pre-deployment training,
I knew that I had some time in their training schedule to put the dog under
(13:54):
general anesthesia if need be and treat any teeth or oral disease that needed
done before deployment.
Oftentimes that might not have been the case where i was just basically writing
the health certificate because they were shipping out the next day and at that
point i just had to medically document it and hope that they got the care down
range based on the capabilities of the vet where they were going or it would
(14:19):
just have to wait for their redeployment back home sure,
But, I mean, you know, this all kind of stemmed just kind of my capacity in
the different, you know, roles at the different vet clinics kind of stemmed
me to really want to gather official data,
you know, because I can tell leadership and I can make recommendations or consultations
(14:42):
for, you know, dogs are breaking their teeth.
This is how they're doing it. But without having statistics and data, it's just an opinion.
Yeah. So, you know, that was one of the bigger factors, too,
to get my thoughts and my opinions more solid as far as having a publication.
And so during my dental residency, I actually was able to publish a paper.
(15:07):
And it was just published in 2023.
And it's open forum, meaning that anyone can go to the website and download the paper and read it.
But it was basically a research paper on the prevalence, so how common and the
etiology as far as how these dogs
are doing the trauma of trauma in United States military working dogs.
(15:30):
So basically, I took one year of reviewing every single working dog that had
a dental cleaning performed under general anesthesia.
And we had about 1,500 dogs that I was able to track, like exactly what teeth were broken.
How were they fixed? How did they break the teeth?
So all that data was really able to help me kind of verify and give the push.
(15:56):
Like you said, almost every handler is going to experience a broken tooth.
And this paper was able to identify that every time the dog went under for general
anesthesia, there was a 43% chance of that dog having some type of tooth trauma,
whether or not it needed treatment.
Varied as well too, but you're always, you're always going to find something.
(16:19):
And that's what I try to tell my, my handlers as well too, is that,
you know, it's not just for cleaning the teeth.
It's for identifying trauma that could be limiting their full capacity because,
you know, I, I'm not a general practitioner any longer. However, I have that experience.
(16:40):
And like I used When I was in general practice, I would tell handlers,
and I always advise handlers, try to find those individuals that know these dogs.
Because, like you know, any provider that doesn't have experience with these
dogs are going to most likely treat them like pets.
(17:02):
Exactly. So we have to have that mindset of a working dog that does X,
Y, and Z versus the Labrador that's sitting at home.
And so it's really important to find not only general practitioners,
but also veterinary dentists that do a lot of working dogs.
(17:22):
And this is kind of my soapbox too, but a working dog is such a broad category.
We're not talking about companion animals. We're not talking about pets.
You know, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So that's why I try to say operational canine. So federal entities,
law enforcement, these dogs that are usually multi-purpose dogs that are trained
(17:47):
to do some type of apprehension and some type of odor detection as well too.
Yeah. And I mean, I can give you a good example of that too,
is I was helping an agency that when their dog bit it, the drives of the dog,
everything about the dog indicated the dog should bite, have
a really nice solid bite but the dog would
bite once let go bite once let go and then
(18:08):
when I watched him he turned his mouth sideways so
he could only and what he's trying to do is bite with half of his mouth so I
told him well clearly he's got a tooth problem there's something going on here
and they told me he's been to the vet they cleaned his teeth everything was
fine didn't find anything you know and I said I'm telling you it does there's
you know the drive of the dog you You could see he's trying to bite, but he's in pain.
(18:30):
So they took him to a different vet that does a lot more police dogs in our area.
And when they put that dog out, I don't know, you obviously don't know the name
of the tooth that has the two roots in the back.
He had a slab fracture front to back on that.
And every time he would bite, that molar would open up. But the vet that looked
at it, you know, I don't think he was familiar with the dog doing this crazy stuff that we do. too.
(18:55):
So probably didn't even recognize that as a problem or, or, you know, look for it or whatever.
But once they got that tooth fix, the dog became a new dog.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, you know, always ask for a second opinion,
even with your general practitioners.
I mean, handlers have to be the advocate for these dogs. And I tell them all
the time, like, you know, you're with the dog daily, like, you know, the dog.
(19:18):
So if you know something's wrong and you get an opinion of a professional that
says everything's fine, you know,
go somewhere else or just ask somebody else for their thoughts as well, too.
We have to, you know, we really have to be their voice because they do tell us.
A lot of times with oral disease, we call it the silent disease.
Because especially with our working dogs, we're not going to see a lot of clinical finds.
(19:42):
Like you're not going to see a swelling usually on the face.
I mean, it can happen, but not usually.
I tell handlers and master trainers and, you know,
anyone in the dog world, usually you're going to see
a new dog after the
treatment's performed or we'll see
a lot of bite work issues like you just described i love
(20:03):
that and so i tell handlers you know if they're like his bite is
off he's just not used to be the best dog and now he's just not wanting to bite
i always ask them to send me a video because like you said that can tell us
a lot even if i'm not visualizing inside that dog's mouth i can see what that
dog is doing so a lot of times they'll slip They'll slip off the wrap, they'll release early.
(20:23):
Sometimes they'll chatter either when they come off the wrap.
And yeah, it's night and day after we identify a tooth issue and then treat that dog.
It's just, you know, it can create a lot of training issues I imagine as well too.
So if you have a dog with oral pain and every time that dog does bite work or
(20:44):
does something that's hurting him, he might have a bad response to what you're
asking him to do because it hurts.
And so then it becomes this conflict. Sure. And yeah, so I always recommend,
you know, we need anesthesia. And I know that can be somewhat scary.
But again, find the people that have the experience. There's nothing scary about
(21:07):
anesthesia if you have a good doctor team and you have a good team.
Facility that knows what they're doing. And I know that's hard for everyone
to identify, but ask around word of mouth and talking to other handlers in your
area is definitely, you know, kind of the feedback that you get from others is good as well too.
(21:27):
But we, we really need to see their mouths without them trying to bite us without a muzzle on.
And we really need to get eyes on under anesthesia and x-rays.
And I will tell you, a lot of general practices do not have dental x-rays or
they're not comfortable interpreting dental x-rays. So that's another thing.
(21:49):
We're only seeing a quarter of the tooth looking in the mouth.
Most of the tooth structure and the bone structure and the force where you're
going to get this bite from is usually the roots of the tooth and the jaws and the bones.
So we really need to take dental x-rays of every tooth just to identify any
other problems that we're not seeing.
(22:09):
So is it difficult to find, you know, in different cities across the country,
is it difficult to find an actual, you know, veterinarian that's a dentist?
Yeah, it really varies by state. But if you go to the dental website,
so there's the dental website, it's called American Veterinary Dental College, AVDC.
(22:31):
You can go to their website and just type in your location and it will show
you everywhere that there's a boarded veterinary dentist.
So each state usually has one or two, depending on where you're at.
It might entail travel, but start, you know, start with your general practice,
your regular vet, see if they have oral radiographs.
(22:51):
If they take dental radiographs and you want another opinion,
you could always have your vet send them to the veterinary dentist that's local to you or to myself.
I'm happy to offer that as well too. but if they take the x-rays and do an oral exam.
Someone else can at least get a second eyes on that to see how, how that looks to them.
(23:12):
Yeah. And I think it's probably important to note you already touched base on it.
You know, you might be a vet that, that is part of, you know, a dentist and all that.
But again, if that, if that vet doesn't have a lot of experience with working
dogs, is it going to take a little bit of just conversation with them?
Because obviously they'll see it on the radiographs, but on the x-rays,
(23:33):
but would not just every vet's going to understand to the degree that you're
speaking about with kind of what we do and the damage that we can do to a dog's mouth.
Yeah. And I will tell you, and I, when I lecture, I let everyone know too.
I mean, if we're talking about apprehension, your dog needs about 10 teeth in
(23:53):
his mouth to do a initial grip advancement as far as a deep bite and hold.
And there's identified, and I highlight it on every dental chart,
it's all four of the canines, top and bottom, and then it's the upper fourth
premolar and the lower mandibular M1.
So those are the carnasial teeth in the back. So anytime a working dog has fractures to those teeth,
(24:19):
we always try to save the teeth, meaning that if there is a fracture and there's pulp exposure,
that the blood supply and the nerves are exposed to the mouth,
the oral cavity, that dog either needs a root canal or an extraction because open pulp means pain.
(24:39):
That means that there's nerves in there that's going to eventually die.
It's going to eventually most likely get infected.
So that treatment option is either a root canal or an extraction.
And there's 10 to 12 teeth in a working dog's mouth that I never extract.
I mean, sometimes they're broken way beyond me even fixing.
(25:02):
I mean, I like the challenge of
repairing and keeping that dog in service because it's not just the cost.
We have to think about the amount of dog days down. Exactly.
And so in the military, that's huge.
So when we talk about extraction, depending on what type of tooth it is,
extraction can be out of work for anywhere from two to four weeks for that surgical site to heal.
(25:29):
Whereas the beauty of a root canal is they're
back to work almost the very next day because we don't
we don't remove any of that bone we don't remove tooth structure we
basically keep the tooth as is they're back to work
the next day so those are really the importance of understanding the treatment
options and kind of knowing the follow-up to what those treatments are and i
(25:51):
know that that's going to be the you know as i start to publish this podcast
that's going to be what's It's going to draw a lot of people to listen to this because, again,
you know, if you've never had a dog with a broken canine, you work a patrol dog, you will.
And if you have, you know, you've probably had different experience.
So let's talk about broken canines because I think that's, you know,
we'll talk about the other teeth too.
(26:12):
But broken canine, I come to you, my dog say, you know, pick whatever you want.
Three-year-old Malinois, fairly young dog, patrol dog, dual-purpose dog,
whatever it is, patrol dog. dog,
broken canine, top right canine is broken halfway down, pulp is exposed.
You know, I know the options would be like a root canal or an implant or whatever.
(26:34):
So can you kind of go over the options and what the pros and cons are that people would be hearing?
Yeah, absolutely. And I have handouts on all this as well, too.
I do have a working dog handout that I'm happy to send or make available online.
It just kind of describes all these treatment options as well,
too, and why it's important for working dogs.
As far as choosing, but yeah. So when you come to see me with your,
(26:59):
your Malinois or whatever you have, I'm going to need a lot of history.
So what's really important too, and this is why I don't like protocols and flow
charts because the military, you know, we try to standardize everything too.
And I tried to tell them dentistry can't be put in a box.
Like I need to know, Is your Malinois a cage chewer?
(27:22):
Does he try to destroy the back of the vehicle when you leave the squad?
Does he chew on rocks in the backyard? I kind of need to know his habit.
Number one, how is he traumatizing his teeth? What is he doing?
Is he a tug? Does he tug really hard? What kind of toys are you using for a reward?
(27:42):
Oftentimes, you know, those toy rewards are what's causing a lot of the wear
or the trauma on their teeth.
So I kind of talk with the handler, get to know the dog, get to know the handler,
kind of their routine, what they do so that I can start thinking about what's
going to be, you know, the best treatment for this dog.
Basically, once the dog's under anesthesia, I look at the rest of the teeth
because that helps me decide what's going to be best.
(28:04):
And then I also have to understand the dog's job and the handler's job,
you know, as far as like their operational requirements, their,
you know, what kind of the goals of the department.
Young dog, yeah, we get, you know, a young dog has a lot longer career and they
want to keep the dog in service as long as possible.
But, you know, old dogs is a number two. I mean, really, age isn't too much
(28:29):
of a factor when it comes to teeth.
But for a dog that just has, let's say this was just a random incident where
the decoy kind of jabbed the dog and the tooth just split in half.
And all the rest of the teeth looked perfect. It was just kind of a freak accident.
What I would tell this young dog is that my recommendation would most likely
(28:51):
be definitely a root canal.
And then I would talk with the handler about a crown, so a cap,
a metal crown, or just the root canal.
And that leads a whole other discussion of why.
But what we do know about canine teeth is that when one canine tooth fractures,
(29:13):
exactly like you said, you're almost
likely to have another canine tooth fracture within the year or two.
So it's kind of like this downward spiral. viral and how I explain it to handlers
is think of the biomechanics of the bite.
So we want everything to be level. You know, if your dog bites with his head
tilted to the right, you might develop some issues in the jaw or the muscles
(29:35):
in the back of the jaw because he's not balanced and he doesn't have a good solid grip.
But when you have a shorter canine, so let's say you have a short canine,
the other three are normal length, you're more likely going to have compensation
on those other canines now.
So that shorter canine is kind of protected.
Now the other canines are doing most of the work. And so they're likely some
(29:56):
sort of tug and pull are potentially going to fracture as well too.
Not always, but it just depends on kind of the dog and the biomechanics of that dog's head.
So I always recommend root canal and a crown.
And what I will tell you is is that it's not always a requirement.
(30:16):
It depends on the dog and it depends on the dog's job.
The benefits that I see of a crown, and this is another discussion too,
but the benefits that I see of a crown is that.
Goal of the crown is protecting that tooth
so that tooth that dog can no
longer feel that tooth so he can sit
(30:36):
there and crunch on something and never feel it yeah so
basically the enamel around that tooth can
still chip away we haven't prevented him from
hurting that tooth again or breaking that tooth
again the other thing that i like
is that my crown lab we've done a lot
of discussions and you know dentistry
(30:58):
has come a long way in the last 20 years it's a
brand new specialty and profession and i
think i know crowns get a bad opinion
and a bad reputation and i absolutely understand that
because of the fact that i think previously
before we started thinking about the biomechanics of the
dog's mouth we wanted this really tall sharp long
(31:20):
looking you know dagger tooth that looked
so scary and so a lot of the dentists
at that time were building the
crown up or making the metal cap as
long and curved as it was previously to the tooth fracturing so if you can just
imagine now you have this longer piece of metal and it's a big lever point so
(31:44):
now you've just created the perfect tooth to break off at the gum line because
you created this huge lever.
So that's a no-go as far as rebuilding the tooth up or making the crown longer
than the actual tooth is.
And then the other no-go, and this is my personal opinion, this has nothing
to do, pretty much everything I say has nothing to do with the military or my
(32:07):
private practice stance. This is my personal opinion.
But my opinion is that titanium metal is too hard for working dogs. Right.
And so if you've seen titanium metal crowns, and I know caps are kind of the
synonym that I hear throughout the police world, but the titanium crown is like a concrete brick.
(32:27):
It is tough and you are never going to get that off.
And what's going to happen is that when that dog pushes something or bites something
or tries to grab and tug that tooth, that titanium tooth is going to break off
at the gum line because it's such a hard metal.
Yeah, it's stronger than the tooth.
(32:49):
Exactly. So talking to my crown lab, who we use, and talking to other experts
in the field, we use a softer metal.
It's a softer, flexible metal because, again, the job of that crown is to protect that tooth.
It's helping restore that tooth and keep it the same exact structure as it is the day I put it on.
So that tooth with a silver alloy metal has a little bit more flexibility.
(33:12):
It's a little bit softer. And so it can do the things we're asking that dog's
mouth to do without traumatizing or breaking.
And so I have not, within the last couple of years of where I currently am at,
I have not had a tooth ever fracture at the gum line ever.
Again, because I think a lot of the thought process has to go into the right
(33:33):
treatment plan for the right dog.
It's not the right answer for every dog. It just really depends.
And that makes sense. What is the success ratio like with your real active military dogs?
And I know, especially in the environment that a lot of the military dogs are,
the kennel chewing's real prevalent and all that, so I know that that's gotta be a huge challenge.
(33:53):
So when you've put one of these crowns on the dogs.
How often does that crown come off? Or, I mean, is that usually,
is that the end of the problem with that tooth?
And you just wait for the other ones or is it, does it take care of the problem?
I guess that's my question.
Right. So the question, yeah. So I have never had one break off at the gum line.
(34:14):
If it does, most of the time that tooth is probably done.
Yeah. Meaning we leave it, we can either leave it intact with just the root
canal there and reshape it.
Just kind of, you know, clinically clean it up.
Yeah. or we extract that too. So that has never occurred.
What I have had happen once on a civilian dog and once on a special operations
(34:36):
dog was the metal cap, the crown just popping off.
So for some reason, well, I know the reasons, both of these dogs were heavy cage chewers.
One of the dog was in a boarding facility while the handler was on leave.
And the other dog is a cage chewer in his regular environment.
So at some point that crown just got
weakened and weakened and then weekend and then that dog just hit
(34:59):
it at the right angle where it just popped right off so that
the tooth itself was still fine so for
the special operations dog i haven't seen that dog back he's
pretty busy right now so he's just living his life without that metal crown
doing everything the other police dog he found actually a boarding facility
found the crown so we just cleaned it up and re-cemented it back on okay so
(35:22):
both of them are still functional no problems moving forward with having that treatment performed.
Okay. And let's touch base on implants.
Is that anything that you ever recommend or do? No.
Yeah. And I will forewarn you, it's a very highly debatable topic in the veterinary
world as well too, but implants really have no place for our pets and our working dogs.
(35:47):
And the reason I say that is because to truly do an implant,
and what that means is if any if you guys have had regular dental work or had
an implant on your own, it basically means that the tooth is extracted.
So the broken tooth is extracted.
There's a screw like a metal rod that gets put up into the bone where the tooth
(36:08):
normally was supposed to sit.
The bone then has to heal around that implant site.
And then the final tooth gets screwed into that implant site.
So the whole process is about a four to six month process where the dog cannot work.
Yeah. So to me, that's not an option. I mean, who wants a working dog sitting around for six months?
(36:32):
So it's, it's not an option. If we do a good job and keep the rest of their
43 teeth healthy or 41 teeth healthy, you know, whichever, then they'll be fine.
Yeah. So I would, I would never offer an implant, especially for a working dog.
Glad you said that but i i travel a lot and i actually see it and i don't know.
(36:53):
You know i don't know if that's a what the motivation
is or you know just the vets that don't quite
understand or whatever but i do see i do see
i talk to handlers who who their dog's been out of work for
you know three or four or five months and they're trying to
get the teeth fixed and and i you know i'm
not i'm not sure because a lot of times words get you know
(37:15):
words get labeled and correctly i
know when i was stationed in europe when i was
in the military i know the german military at that time i
believe were putting posts and crowns in
the dogs that had root canals performed so i know this is a lot of lingo that
yeah doesn't mean much but but basically it wasn't an implant but they were
(37:37):
doing a post inside of their metal crown yeah so So there's different nomenclature
for different treatments.
I wouldn't doubt that there's veterinary dentists doing implants.
I know that some papers have been published on it.
Mostly it had been like in pets or incisors.
(37:58):
But I would love to know. So if you come across any that say that that's what's
going on, I'm happy to be put in contact with them.
Because I'm willing to learn as well, too. I mean, I don't, I don't know everything.
So if there's something more that I need to know, I'm happy to.
And, and maybe it was like a post in crown, but even that will,
(38:19):
is going to keep the dog out of work for a decent amount of time. Right.
Yeah, you know, I will tell you too, that's why location is everything. Location, location.
We actually, we have a really wonderful setup.
We have a crown lab that can turn around my crowns within six to seven days.
So what that means is that working dog comes with a broken tooth.
(38:43):
He has his root canal done. A week later, he has his crown put on.
A day later, he's back to work. So he's out for a total of like seven days.
And we have really highlighted that key feature to the point that,
you know, military soft, any of these high operational seal dogs,
any of these dogs that don't have a lot of time to sit around and get better,
(39:06):
they fly their handlers TDY with their dogs just for a week to get all this out at one time. Nice.
Just because, again, it's just operationally more efficient than sometimes going locally.
And I don't mean to put you on the spot, but is it financially more efficient
too? Is it, I mean, can you give me a rough idea?
(39:27):
I know that prices vary all over the country, but for a handler who's facing
this at different parts of the country, can you, is there, is there any way
to even give a general idea what, what that, the price range of that should be? I mean, maybe. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It varies so much from geographic location.
I would say in my area, we're kind of in rural Midwest Wisconsin,
(39:48):
my area, a root canal and a crown on a canine tooth, you know,
with the specialists in my area, I know that it ranges anywhere from 3,000 to 4,600.
So that would kind of be the Midwest area. I know on the East Coast or in California,
so to say, that it could range anywhere from 4,000 to 8,000,
(40:11):
depending on where you're at.
So it's not unheard of for SEAL teams to come up from California and get four
crowns placed on their dog for the same price it would cost one in California.
And again, that's not even cost savings for the government. That's just efficiency operational means.
(40:31):
To be honest, the money doesn't matter to them. Yeah, so if you just did a root
canal and reshape the tooth, is that gonna be significant cost savings?
Not so much. I mean, I want to say our cost, you know, in private practice, it will be cheaper.
(40:52):
So it's most likely it should be cheaper because, you know, the crown,
it takes a lot of skill to to to shape the crown, to make an impression of the
crown, use the crown lab.
So it's a whole nother process and a whole nother procedure.
So, yeah, it should be pretty, you know, cost savings, I would say could range
anywhere from $700 to $3,000 if you don't have the crown put on. Yeah.
(41:19):
And the reason I ask is, I mean, I have listeners all over the country and that comes into play.
I was doing a class one time and a handler had a dog that the tooth broke.
And when he went back and talked to the sheriff and once they got the prices
and everything, the sheriff just lost his mind.
It was going to blow his budget for lots of different things because very small agency.
(41:40):
So, you know, that definitely comes into play. So the reason I bring it up is
that, I mean, I guess that's one more reason why, you know, it's good for handlers
to know they can reach out, you know, different people all over the country,
even if that's not going to be the doctor who's going to treat their dog.
They can at least get some informed decisions and figure out what the options are.
And sometimes, you know, and luckily there's some charities now that will help
(42:03):
with vet bills. But, you know, if you're a handler that works for a real small
agency in a rural area, you know, I know that money can be an issue.
So when we start talking $4,000 or $5,000 for one tooth, that gets to be a little cringy for some guys.
Yeah, I know. It's sad sometimes, the budget.
And I know a lot of the law enforcement do have to do a lot of fundraisers or,
(42:26):
you know, try to support their dog for the care that they need.
But you know it's a whole nother that's a
whole nother podcast so let's talk about the other teeth too in the mouth i
mean we've talked a lot about uh the canines but uh you know like i know a couple
times i've had dogs where they had to pull a couple of the front teeth do they
(42:49):
have any real purpose other than i had dogs that kind of look like hillbillies when they're done but.
Is is that a big deal if you have to pull them in between the canines no i mean
those those those incisors are, you know, yes, they serve a purpose,
but the dog is still functional to do what we have asked them to do.
The, what I will say is that if, if a working dog has an upper third incisor
(43:13):
tooth, so the top of the jaw, the incisor right next to the canine tooth,
that tooth is actually a really large tooth.
So if I have working dogs that come in with that tooth fractured,
I always recommend root canal of that tooth as well.
So the upper third incisor is the one right next to the upper canine.
In between the two canines? Yes.
(43:36):
Yeah, it's the one in the front right next to the canine. Yeah.
But surprisingly, and I don't know, I'm trying to figure out,
in my study, the two most common teeth that were fractured in the military working
dog was the second incisor on the top of the right and the left.
If you can visualize, they have three on the right side, three on the left.
(43:59):
So the very middle incisor is the most common tooth that a working dog fractures.
And then it's his upper canines. So his upper right and left canine are kind
of the four teeth that our working dogs most commonly fracture.
And in your study, was that a combination of single purpose detection dogs or
were they all dogs that do some type of patrol work and do bite work?
(44:21):
It was broken down. I think we had like 11 different categories.
So it was single purpose, it was dual purpose, and that brings up a good kind of shocker.
I was able to actually identify that our non-patrol dogs, so our dogs not doing
any patrol work, actually fractured their teeth more than patrol dogs, which blew my mind.
(44:43):
But during that timeframe, we did have a lot of SSD dogs, specialized search dogs.
So again, these are dogs that are still high drive.
I have a lot of theories on why that is, but also their housing environment
is so different compared to the law enforcement or some of the federal agencies.
So that plays into a lot as well too.
(45:05):
And most of those dogs assume there were, I mean, even if they were single purpose
dogs are most of them either shepherds, Malinois or Dutchies or.
Yes. Yes. A hundred percent shepherds or mouse.
Okay. So no floppy or Labradors or. No, no. Okay. Yeah.
What about the other teeth, like going back behind the canines?
(45:25):
Do you see problems with those? Like I mentioned, the one dog that I saw had
a slab fracture. Is that very common? Yeah.
Yeah. So actually, the upper fourth premolar, so the teeth, I'm usually used
to doing a presentation, so I'm trying to point and you can't see it.
But yeah, the upper fourth premolar
is the bigger tooth on the top of the right and left of their jaw.
(45:48):
That tooth is actually the most common tooth in our pet's fracture.
Fracture so working dogs almost always fracture teeth
in the front like their canines and incisors pets always
fracture their back upper fourth premolar some working
dogs do and it's usually because handlers are giving them things
they're not supposed to have so hard bones are the most common things that our
(46:09):
pets fracture that upper fourth tooth on that's your typical slab fracture so
hard bones like bully sticks i know that yeah it's a little controversial but
antlers bully Foley sticks, butcher bones,
the dogs take those hard.
Yeah, they do make a different kind of variety, like a softer variety.
(46:30):
But hard bones where the dog just sits and crunches and puts that toy and that
bone in the back of his mouth, that's how you're going to get the slab fracture
of the upper fourth pre-buller.
That's a very significant tooth. It's a three-rooted tooth.
So that tooth and then the lower mandibular molar, that's a huge tooth.
And that's a very important tooth as well, too.
(46:51):
That tooth, they also break on chewing on inappropriate things. Yeah.
That was, I mean, I learned that from the folks at Kong that a lot of those
toys, the hard plastic ones, are seasoned or flavored with different things
to make the dogs want them.
And toys like Kong, it's the shape of it and the feel of it and everything that
(47:13):
gets dogs that want to do it. But so you don't, I mean, I don't think we talk
enough about using the right toy for your dogs.
Yeah. Well, we might need a second podcast. Yeah. I think that would be really good.
Yeah. We haven't even touched on dental disease, like all that calculus and stinky dental disease.
Yeah. You know. And I think we, yeah, I think we do need to probably do another
(47:36):
podcast because I want to talk about that. Yeah.
You know, and I know that there's a connection, and I think most handlers know,
but I'd like you to maybe go into a little more detail about the connection,
about how that's going to affect their nose at the same time.
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a huge one. And actually, that would fit really well
with dental disease as far as all the bacteria and stuff that's now into the nasal passage.
(48:00):
And that's a huge, huge interest right now for a lot of the research industry
as far as olfactory goes and odor detection.
And I have made the link and we do know that infected tooth roots and dental
disease can affect odor detection.
And so that, you know, now looking back, thinking about all those dogs that
(48:22):
I deployed down range, sniffing explosives with potential decreased odor threshold.
I mean, that's just a catastrophic thought.
And I don't want to think that. But now we know more and we know better and we can do better.
But yeah, that's definitely something to touch on because it is an issue and it can be an issue.
(48:43):
Well, I'm looking forward to that. We'll bring you back on very soon.
So if you're listening to this podcast and you like this, know that I'll be
talking to the doctor very soon again.
So when you're listening to this, if you have questions, shoot them to me and
shoot me an email and I'll bring up any questions on that podcast.
And we'll probably be putting that out here sooner rather than later,
(49:03):
because I think it's a fascinating topic.
I think it's an important topic. And I'm so happy to find someone with your
experience and knowledge base that's specializing in teeth.
So I sure appreciate you taking the time. We traded some emails and texts to get this going.
And I know you're a busy person. So thank you very much for taking the time.
(49:23):
And I'm looking forward to our next podcast, which will be very soon, I hope.
Yeah, of course. And we can also talk about, I just want to put it out there
because this might spark some interest with the handlers as well, too.
So my practice is really starting to employ preventative care of tooth fracture.
So what that means is that when you have those working dogs,
(49:46):
let's say you got it from the vendor or they're just horrible cage chewers,
they already have really significant wear along the backside of those canine teeth.
Those are almost inevitably going to fracture.
And so for a lot of our highly operational dogs that don't have a lot of downtime
and they don't want to worry about when they're deployed or whatnot with a fractured
(50:07):
tooth, when certain dogs meet that criteria,
we're actually doing a crown shortening procedure where we remove a little height
of that canine tooth to make it less fractured. Yeah.
Resistant we make it we make it more fracture resistant by shortening
the height of that tooth and then we put a metal crown on top of
(50:29):
it preventatively so we'll do that on two canines
we'll do that on four depending on the dog you know it's not it's
it's not for any particular reason other than we know the dog's going to fracture
a tooth let's just get on top of it now keep the tooth alive that's the other
thing to talk about we don't do a root canal we do something called a vital
pulp which keeps the tooth alive because that is the most important thing is
(50:52):
to to keep the teeth alive,
and then we crown it to prevent the dog from fracturing the tooth in the future.
That's interesting. And we've been very, very successful with that.
So a handler could do that when they're on vacation or something,
and the dog won't really miss much downtime.
Well, and same thing. They're down for a week at my facility.
Perfect. So I do all four of them. They're down for a week, and they're back to work.
(51:15):
But yeah, next time. Yeah, for sure.
We'll be doing a few. So if you have questions, send them to me and I'll pass
them on to the doctor and we're going to get her back on very soon.
So again, thanks for all your time and I'm looking forward to the future shows.
Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm really excited about this. It's been a long time
to learn and kind of advance the education of our dogs and so they deserve it
(51:40):
and I'm happy to be on more frequently.
Outstanding. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. Thank you.
Well, that's going to wrap it up for this show. I was excited about this show before we did it.
Now that we've finished the show and we got to talk to the doctor,
I'm excited about this show coming out.
And then I'm excited about bringing the doctor back on and talking to her more
about some of these other topics that we just talked about.
(52:03):
So it's fun that I get to do this and find experts in the field and then sit
down and pick their brains.
So I couldn't do that without the support that you guys give me by listening
to it and then the support from our sponsors. There's a couple more of our sponsors
that I wanted to reach out and thank again today.
CATS, so CATS is Canine Activity Tracking System, KTS.
Check out catsplatinum.com. You've heard me talk about it for the last several months.
(52:27):
Bob Eden is the proprietor of CATS. He's the one who started a lot of different
things in our industry, and record-keeping on a computer was something that Bob started.
He's been doing it the longest. He has an outstanding program.
Customer service is great. You
can get a free trial, look around the whole product, see if you like it.
You can change so much stuff about cats and make it your own program very easily.
(52:52):
It's a really well thought out program, works really well. The technology behind
it is outstanding and he's always improving it.
And when you need anything, you can reach out to Bob himself.
It's not a big company and he's taking care of all the customer service and very approachable guy.
So you can hit him up about the company and maybe pick his brain on some dog training stuff.
(53:13):
So again, thanks to Bob and Katz for sponsoring the show.
So check out katzplatinum.com.
And then finally, we've been talking about Fox and Hound. They're a good company.
They have good products, a lot of natural stuff, soaps and kennel cleaners, those types of things.
Go to shopfoxandhound.com, shopfoxandhound.com and check out all the stuff they have.
(53:38):
And like I've been mentioning, it's clearly, you know, their big business probably
is more pets and stuff, but they really support what we do, and they support working dogs.
So I like that Oscar Kennel Cleaner a lot. So go on there, check out that Oscar Kennel Cleaner.
You can keep your car smelling a lot better and a lot cleaner,
which is then you can keep your dog a lot cleaner just by spending a few minutes
(54:00):
cleaning out your dog kennel in your car every day.
Pretty easy to do when you have the right equipment. So, check out shopfoxandhound.com,
and when you're on there, you can see that they have the Fox and Hound Foundation,
which is supporting what we do.
So, the foundation is doing all kinds of things for police dogs and working dogs.
(54:20):
They're doing a lot of good work. They're supporting different dogs in retirement, medical stuff.
It's a great foundation, and they're doing it all through proceeds from their company.
So, again, companies like Fox and Hound that are supporting us are always going
to be near and dear to me. So I appreciate their support. Thank you guys for
listening and have a safe.
Music.
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