S3E4 | John Bray | Leadership - The Remote Teacher

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Remote Teacher podcast. We're excited to have you here.

(00:09):
I'm Hake Hassehler, an experienced regional rural and remote teacher, author of children's
middle and YA books and co-creator of the Facebook group, teaches in remote communities
past, present and future, along with Karl Merrison and Lynette Gordon, and the co-owner
of website the remote teacher. The remote teacher, podcast and all our support platforms

(00:32):
come from a passion to improve the experience of remote teachers and in turn create positive
outcomes for our remote students and communities.
You can find out more about us on www.vremoteteacher.com.au, over on our Facebook group, teaches
in remote communities past, present and future, and of course by listening to this podcast.

(00:55):
I remember you can also download these podcasts so you don't need internet access and you
can listen to them wherever you need, including on your long drives out to your remote and
rural communities. Please remember to like us on Facebook, on Instagram and by signing up
to our email list.
Before I introduce our guest for today, it's important to acknowledge that the discussions

(01:17):
that we have here are the opinion of the guest and myself alone and do not represent
anyone including Department of Education or any particular organisation unless of course
they've come on stating that they're representing that organisation.
It's also important to consider first-station peoples, communities, students and families

(01:38):
are all diverse and unique and what works for our guests and myself, they all may not
work for you, your students, your families, your communities and your schools so take what
you need, leave what you don't, sit back and enjoy, let's begin.
Hello everyone and welcome to the remote teacher podcast.
Today I'm chatting with John Bray, a teacher who has experienced working in remote communities,

(02:02):
but before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians on the lands we
meet today, the Bungalong people of Northern Rivers, New South Wales where I am, and the
Turball and the Jaguar up country where John is at this interview.
We power respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to any
first nations people listening along with our podcast today.

(02:24):
So John can you introduce yourself a little bit and maybe your life and career before remote
teaching?
Before remote teaching, wow, I grew up on a farm north of Brisbane, so it was a really
interesting place.
When I was six remember my dad take me down to the bottom of the farm and it was a big

(02:45):
mound of shells.
I said, "What's this dad?"
And he said, "Well, that's a place where indigenous people here used to bring, they used
to work in the mangroves and come back and bring."
And ever since that was all being fascinated about, wow, you know, it was very interesting.
I was going to say the mound would have been at least 10 meters tall.

(03:06):
So imagine the rich history of people going into the mangroves bringing back crustaceans
and shells and eating and it's still there today.
And dad said, "Whatever you do, don't tell anybody about this."
So I went, "Okay, well, but I did and now it's been recognised and being saved."
So down there, it's great.

(03:28):
So anyway, that was me on a farm.
We grew the best tomatoes in Australia, pumpkins, things like that.
And I sort of had the fortune and experience then to get into uni and do a batch of science
in Australian environmental studies which started my lovely, interesting career around

(03:50):
environment and things like that.
And also, I think public issues around the environment which led to the indigenous aspect
as well.
So, pretty lucky, did that, did a great dip in between teaching because I don't know what
I was going to do.
And I ended up first year teaching at a tire of West to Queensland and then from there,

(04:11):
just kept going on and all of a sudden I was ahead of the department down in Brisbane
at a high school and a job came up at Richmond which is North Queensland.
And I went for the job.
I was deputy.
I was a pod, but it was a principal job.
It's just a school up there and I met the executive director and after any of you guys, you

(04:37):
know what, John, you don't want that job.
I've got a better job for you.
You have that d'Almagee which is seven hours north of Mount Isah.
And he's made this young fella with a young family, more wife, two little kids in Nappy's
and he goes, "I want to give it a go."
He said, "It's probably the hardest school in Australia."

(04:57):
And I'm thinking, "Were you sending your first year buddy principal up there?"
We will turn out—
We will turn out—
We will turn out—
We will turn out— yes, yes.
We will turn out— yes, yes, yes.
We will turn out— yes.

(05:18):
Yes.
That's where I met my wife actually.
In fact, the Bresbyn, the big high school in Bresbyn,
and then up to, you wouldn't believe it,
Jaburoo, Gumballonia in the Northern Territory,
was asked to run the first ever,
it was a really interesting birthday jobs,

(05:39):
really.
It was getting kids as young as Bubbs in the school
and going all the way through,
which was I've got to say,
the best job I've ever had at Gumballonia,
which is in West Ireland land.
So it was really, really remarkable.
It's interesting, absolutely fascinating

(05:59):
with the indigenous languages there.
But I came in and that was probably the best story
I've ever had where his,
Mayor Watfeller coming in,
experienced principle,
yeah, I know what to do.
And there's an indigenous lady who is running the school,
Gumballonia, Esther.
And I got told,
John, look, we've got to get rid of Esther.

(06:19):
She's got to go.
She's not doing the job.
And here's me coming in with that Watfeller attitude,
which completely disregarded her background,
who she was.
And it was two more, two more, you know,
but to a credit,
after three months, we sat down under the tree,
the mango tree at the front of the school

(06:41):
and we just spoke about what's going on.
And she took a credit,
she could have walked away, you know, turned her back,
you know, like many indigenous women do turn her back
and, oh, he's no good, we're not going to do that,
but she didn't.
She took a time and we spoke.
And I've got it on tape, actually.
How we communicated and I apologized.
And she apologized and we went forward from there.

(07:04):
And from there,
once we sort of communicated, understood each other
and then bang, we took off.
Like, I've got another principle in.
I got Esther as the principal of cultural,
you know, principal of culture.
She did all the culture work.
And I got a lady in who she really knows

(07:25):
to do all the curriculum and all the, you know,
all the running the school stuff,
but Esther did everything else around,
getting kids to school, understanding community.
And it showed community that we actually,
we actually valued that two principles.
First of all, we have had two principles,
and indigenous and a non-indigenous.
First time ever.

(07:46):
And I've got it took off, you know, we set up then a board,
which is all run by local indigenous people
around education.
Later, they chose teachers,
chose people coming in, set the curriculum.
The curriculum, which you follow is running curriculum,
but six seasons in CACADO, which we run.
So the teaching was around six seasons.

(08:07):
Attendance was low, of course,
the Christmas time because of school shut.
What do we do?
Open the school.
We're dry season.
Everyone's out hunting and fishing as you and I would be out there.
Beautiful.
That's when we have our Christmas holidays.
So we changed the calendar.
So that type of thing meant that I don't so much

(08:28):
about listening and understanding, you know,
complex issues have many,
what I learned, you know,
they're very complex issues have multiple perspectives.
And they're all valid, and you're just going to listen.
And we just trial things, trial things,
and it's in its work.
So, you know, so then from there,
back to breezy massive big high school, which are hated,

(08:49):
then up to Arakun for a while working for NOL,
which was interesting.
I won't go on about that.
Back to breezy, another big high school.
And then all of a sudden, I worked for Strong and Smarter
with a with a Chris Sarah.
So I did want to work around indigenous leadership.

(09:10):
We're around a leadership in indigenous schools.
Get that Friday in months.
And then I've got a call to go back up to Javaru
as the Executive Director working for the Chief Ministers
Department, because the mining,
it's a mining town.
It's going to shut, and they needed somebody to help,
sort of transform the town from a mining town
to a tourist town.
So I noticed that that was a great job.

(09:31):
And I did that for two years, and we transformed.
We worked at how it was going to, you know,
back to a national park,
which was, you know, Commonwealth owned.
You've got the Northern Land Council.
You've got all the, of course,
the indigenous communities across the park
bringing that together was fascinating.

(09:51):
But that taught me a lot again about multiple perspectives
and listening and understanding.
And the biggest issues were, of course,
was government, wouldn't listen.
So, but it's happening now.
So anyway, back to breezy after that,
worked in the Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait

(10:11):
on the partnerships, says a Executive Director
doing local thriving communities,
which is all about local decision making,
which was great.
Once again, I learned about how government
has got a keen idea, but in order to do it,
they were very frustrated that it took taking so long,
which I kept trying to explain about giving people time,

(10:34):
and that's why, you know, it worked in some places,
but, you know, in the end, I got frustrated and,
went back to school, principal had War of Ender,
which is Westa Rocky.
And wonderful, wonderful community of 38 indigenous nations
in a community complex, but, we made some big inroads there.
We taught science through indigenous language there,

(10:59):
and it was outstanding.
Oh my God, it just, it just went through the roof.
So that was our language program and our science program.
And it just makes so much sense, you know,
it's just, it gives you goosebumps now
just thinking about what we did.
There's all community control, we set up a board again,

(11:19):
you know, which, you know, the people there were saying,
you know, what do you mean we can decide what we want to do
in the school? Of course you can.
You know, this is not my school.
I report to you.
I'm a CEO and you're the board members.
Oh, you tell me, you know, so,
and that taught a lot of time and, and I learned,
another thing I learned from Gumballani about,
it's not about having, who's on the board,

(11:39):
it's actually having family members,
which means you don't have to come to this meeting.
You send a family members, you go back and talk.
So, they've always made up of probably 20 family members,
but I would see different members every time,
and that's okay.
That's how your board should be run.
And I'm, I'm from there, back now to a green leafy suburb,
a school in Brisbane, which is an interesting place,

(12:02):
complex, they think they know what they were doing,
but now I'm, you know,
Indigenous numbers are rising there,
but it's still very complex,
and I'm sort of itching to get back to community.
My wife is too, but we'll take our time
and we'll fix this place up and then go.
So that's me.
Very short.
- Albo, what a huge adventure.

(12:24):
I loved the story of how that interest was peaked
back in the Shell Middens,
and how your path was kind of always going to be
environmental science and finding that path into education.
There was, there was so much data unpack.
I, wow, what a career you've had,
and what an adventure you've had,
that two way science that bubs to jobs program,

(12:46):
I think anyone would love to know more about that.
And if they do, how do they find out more about a program
back then in the audience?
- Email me, and we're, it's still going to die
up in Gumballania, but email me,
you'll put my email out.
- Yep, I'll be in the show notes if you like.
Yes, that'd be great.
- Yeah, yeah, no problem at all.
And it's, I think, you know,

(13:06):
and it's a sort of thing that needs to be done
with community, not for community,
so I learned, so, I use things with people,
not for people, and that's the big thing.
- And people can also contact you about six seasons
and the two way science initiatives
that you work on.
- Absolutely.
- You think about two ways, so you can do anything else,

(13:28):
you know, the art program, oh my God, you know,
it's, and we did, you know, at Gumballania,
we did every Friday was culture day.
So no English was all, it was all culture,
all culture every Friday, which meant that,
and kids came to school on a Friday,
which they used to finish school at one o'clock on a Friday,
so we turned out, we, school started finishing at five

(13:49):
because everyone's there.
- Everyone's there.
- Yes.
- The point you touched on about Esther,
and that the Department of Education didn't value her
or didn't see her value,
and then it wasn't about the value, it was about the role
that, and the expectations, the role,
so finding the right role that really valued her cultural
knowledge, her connection to community,

(14:09):
that role that she could play in shaping the school,
but not from that paperwork elements.
- Yep, that was, look, and that's a fascinating,
look, and I may be thinking back now about,
always in that, you know, when you lose yourself
from a role, authentic human interaction is impossible.
And I was in that role.
I was in, I was Colleys' director and bang, you know,
this is what we have to do, and it wasn't until I went,

(14:33):
I did a course with another, with actually Esther's cousin,
and we went away for three days,
and it sort of hit me in the face.
We did a cultural sort of cultures of collaboration,
and it hit me in the face.
I remember the day the time, I was wholly bloody,
how his may sit in there, and I just realized,
I was in this, what fell a world of, you know, coming in,

(14:54):
and that sort of changed my attitude.
I said, "Esther, let's work together."
And we did, but I could see how the department sees that,
and they're slowly changing, but it's very difficult,
because it depends on who's running the,
and me being involved in government,
you can see how different an issue to start,
and it may not match community, but it could.

(15:16):
There's got to be a different way, so.
- Well, and you're talking a little bit about you being,
kind of like the tool to make things work as well,
by listening to community and going with the community
initially, whereas you're just being the tool to make that happen.
- Correct, and that's why I think young teachers
or any teachers come in community,
and that's the learning aspect,

(15:38):
because you bring in your own cultural,
you're going to know what you're doing and why,
and they talk about three types of people
coming in to bloody communities, I hate that.
And I think everyone's got, well, I had a bit of both,
in everything, I'll say,
the mission they're going to do is miss its bits,
but thing is, you've got to know who you are,
as a new cultural being, but also be willing to let go,

(16:00):
and be sailed, and that takes a lot of effort,
and if you're like, and there's nothing against a 23 year old,
coming in who's brilliant, you know, want to go,
but I think the best teachers I've seen have been 23, 24 year olds,
because they're gummed, they love kids, if you love kids,
love relationships.
You do anything for kids, you get out of the community,

(16:20):
they're the ones.
But at the same time, you've got to head your own piece,
your own quite time, you've got to get away, that type of thing.
And you were talking about yourself as a cultural being,
in our little discussion around what we could talk about today.
You said, sometimes people forget that cultural background
and forget to share their stories,
and kind of don't think about the lens

(16:41):
through which they're looking through.
Did you want to talk a little bit about that?
OK, oh, that's one.
And exactly right, look, enough of witnessed it,
where it's almost like people come in,
and they lose who they are.
And all of a sudden, they want to be part of you,
and they want to be indigenous.
Oh, this is me.
And local people want to know who you are.
Who's your family?
Where are they from?

(17:01):
Tell me about your life.
It's very unique.
And I think if you lose yourself in that role,
you then lose who you are and what you're doing.
So you've got to be really self-conscious.
And I think that self-conscious, you need to practice that
and understand that.
And it's a dangerous situation.
And the reason why it's dangerous is because it
does affect professionally as a teacher.

(17:22):
You are there to teach.
Number one, let's remember that.
You're there to teach.
Number two, and then there comes all the relationship
side of things.
So let's get back to the department.
You know, if the Queensland Department
got a code of conduct, that's what you're teaching.
You are teaching, OK?
Then you work into relationship side of things.

(17:42):
Then you work into how you work with families and communities.
But you've got to understand you are a teacher
and you are, if you don't, it's like you're doing a disservice
to your community and your kids.
It's, you know, it's, you know, it's only two kids here today.
I'm just going to bludge and do nothing.
You know, it's not that.
Yes.
Yes.

(18:02):
I'm not saying blot, but you know, it's, you are a professional
and you've got to remember that.
And I think that's where.
And then, you know, that's what--
And it also ties into families also
have high expectations and wants and dreams for their children
too.
And they expect you as a teacher to be delivering high quality
education.
And teaching kids had a, you know, code speech
and two way learning.

(18:24):
But also, it is about educating them
about what the possibilities are.
And if you're not focusing on what the curriculum is so much,
as well as being culturally relevant and locally relevant,
you know, tying all that in.
But if you're ignoring what your job is,
then you're not doing service exactly like you said
to your students.
You hit on that.
That's beautiful.
I love how you said that.
Beautiful.

(18:44):
Exactly right.
Just a short break to share books and resources
by Hake Hussler and Karl Mererson.
The Children's Book Council of Australia book week
on a book in 2019, Black Cocker 2,
is a middle reader, short novella, set on JARU Country.
Well, short, there are many jumping off points to explore.

(19:05):
Tracks of the missing is a WA Premier Book Award,
Daisy Atomara Award, shortlisted, YA Suspense Thriller.
Set it out back Australia.
It follows Declan Archer in his race to find
a missing busload of students.
My deadly boots is a First Nations picture book
about confidence, identity, and connection.

(19:27):
Karl and Hake Hia also have many more books out
across the next few years, perfect for remote classrooms.
Full teaching packs are available over on the website,
Karl and Hake Hia.com.au.
We also create remote teacher resources,
getting to know you, to learn, date, and much more
over on our TPT store.

(19:49):
So let's get back this deadly interview.
You talked about seeing to understand not to respond
and how Whitefellas perhaps are uneasy with silence.
Did you want to talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, that's a real big learning thing for me
and I've learnt that about listening to understand it.
I've been fortunate to be fishing in Gumballania,

(20:09):
taken out with men and sitting as a men's business.
And it's a really interesting, one of my loudest sayers,
just how it operates about sitting there, sitting there,
and just saying, and nothing, that the silence
to the heavy lifting and someone will speak.
But in my world, or my world, you know,

(20:31):
someone speaks that you're expecting to respond.
Well, no one responded.
You look at it and go, "Hmm."
And it might be five minutes later, somebody responds.
And all the language is me.
The Whitefellas sit in the circle
and I'm trying to understand Kowenge,
which is why I'm getting, you can hear it,
and he'll respond, and he'll respond, and silence.
And then I learnt from meetings, you know,

(20:54):
big meetings with corporate people from government
and indigenous people, and no response.
And it's interesting how, as Whitefellas,
we see no responses in agreement.
But the not-one thing we came up is as part
of our board is that we talk, we discuss,
we come back after a week or two weeks,

(21:15):
then we amount to the decision.
And we did that a lot as part of our work,
especially in designing the Child and Family Center
at Gumballonia, it wasn't about make.
And people coming in, I'll, "How you want your building?"
And I made sure all the government people realised
we're not making decisions today.
Let's talk, come back in a month.
I'll job, but we need to get this done.

(21:35):
No, come back in a month.
And I think that's the thing, don't expect an answer,
because people need to think
and have a really good understanding about what it meant,
especially English, interpreting it,
and you can see people getting tired of the continually
code switching, and the kids do it every day,
the code switch, code switch, and they're bugging,
you know what I'm saying?
So that was, that's a really great learning experience.

(21:58):
Just let silas do the heavy lifting.
Don't expect an answer, come and wait.
Put the question out.
Look, I need some advice around this,
and I'll come back in a couple of days, let's have a chat, you know?
It's something that I'm definitely still working on,
because we did grow up in our culture,

(22:18):
and it is where you jump in and you share ideas,
and Carl often gets annoyed because he says
that I'm listening, but I'm not hearing,
and that he'll take discussion
when we have right jumping with my ideas,
and I think we're bouncing off each other
and he feels like I'm taking over or not listening,
but it is really interesting, I think, of staff room meetings,

(22:39):
for example, whether you have that need
to make space for silence,
and if we've got our Aboriginal education officer there,
and we're shooting out ideas and pumping out things,
and not making time just to sit and sit on things,
which is something that is well-a-work in progress for me.
Beautiful points, I love what you're saying there,

(22:59):
that's exactly it, and I'm doing it now, my place.
We've spent a lot of time on a got there about understanding each other,
you know, spending time at staff, and it's just, who are we?
You know, understand and taking our time.
Well, John, we've got to get on to, you know,
where our three levels of planning, let's do that,
we're going, no, no, no, no, that's wait, and it's worked.

(23:20):
So, you've got to invest in a government circle,
it's hard to invest in something that is a really fast,
shaping, bloody beast, so, you know,
I reckon, this is take our time.
It also makes me think of some First Nations colleagues
that I've had, or, you know, Carl has said that,
why would we give our ideas when everyone else just wants to do all the talking?

(23:43):
And I know sometimes some friends of mine have just kind of stood back
and waited to be invited into the conversation,
because all this stuff is noisily happy around,
they're like, "I've got ideas, but, you know,
no one invited me into the conversation."
It was, without the space, there's kind of no chance
to jump in as well, so that's important for people listening
to make sure they're making space.

(24:04):
Wonderful point, love it, exactly.
You also mentioned the 'I'd like to discuss knowing your community'
and its history.
You know, and look, unfortunate of the apartment,
you know, labels and indigenous education is one,
and it's not, we know that.
The First Nations communities across Australia, we know,
and they're all different, all different backgrounds,
all different histories, and all different, unfortunately,

(24:27):
there's some issues around what fellers coming in.
So you've got to know the background, what's happened,
how did it settle there?
What type of community is it?
Is it a dog or a community that did a grant in trust?
Or is it just, you know, there's a big difference
between the remote and dog communities,
you know, how they're labeled and how they were set up,

(24:49):
but it's also knowing who are the people in the community
and what role they play.
You've got to know that background.
The only way to know that is to ask and find out, ask questions.
And then you do your own research,
and I did the research where War of Binde
was a horrendous thing that's happened there.
And they wonder why people don't get on.

(25:10):
It's just disgraceful.
But at the same time, it's a bustling community that's going on,
and you've still got traditional owners there,
that you've got another 50 different, 52 different nations there,
actually.
And what happened, how they walk, you know,
they had to walk 300 kilometers back in the early 30s

(25:32):
to that community.
And you've got to know that.
And then you understand trauma.
And that's that trauma that we know we talk about,
even the kids today, and families, all their grandparents,
they went through trauma.
That's an adverse childhood event.
When you're four-year-old War,
and that's an adverse childhood event, ACE.
And all the research knows, if there's at least three ACEs

(25:53):
as a kid between one, zero, and three, we know
there's huge, huge disadvantage that's coming.
And we know in indigenous communities, ACEs are there.
So as a teacher, you've got to understand,
then why will a sudden the kid will get up and go bang?
And it's understanding the behavior,

(26:14):
not reacting to the behavior, understanding it,
and then how do we deal with it?
And that's that.
And that's how we do a lot of work around brain health.
Yeah, it's got to be called brain health.
And understanding the brain and get kids
understanding what's going on with their meagles.
We call it meggies.
So at my school, we call meggies and kids know
what's happening with their meggies.
And it's going to go--
Giving them the language to learn about their own mental health

(26:37):
and their own brain health, that's very powerful.
So I want you to, from now, I'm not
ever say the term mental health anymore.
It's brain health.
Yes.
And we know.
It used to look like a member when I was at Dormagia,
like Tolboa, a nurse, John, or once they get to--
once they get to--

(26:57):
Tan, we can't do anything about their brains.
And but now we know that's actually so untrue.
Brains can be retrained through a lot, supporting that.
And we know it can.
And we can see with kids at school about understanding and getting
them to understand what's going on their brain and get up.
And a great story of a young boy, 11-year-old, who

(27:21):
come to school, we could only have him at school for an hour
to begin with, because he'd just go nuts, then two hours and three hours.
But they got to a point at second break.
And you-- that was it.
But before that, he used to go around punching people, throwing chairs,
just causing havoc.
I knew we were winning when he used to come in and go,

(27:41):
in my office, I missed the break.
It's time for me to go.
I said, thanks, mate.
Let's go.
And I'll drop him home.
It's only two streets down, drop him home.
He did it every day.
And Mr. Brains, time for me to go.
Time for me to go.
It might be after even first break, Mr. Brains, I think I need to go.
I hate you stopped.
But he's learning.
And like that, that gives me goosebumps just now on that.

(28:02):
And we've worked on that.
Often there's this pressure to upintendents.
So we're trying to keep kids that are no longer
need to be in the classroom.
In the classroom, you want to keep kids there for the whole day.
There's this push.
But partial attendance plans and empowering young people
know when they're done is so important
because they're experiencing success for the time that they're there.

(28:24):
They're feeling empowered.
You're giving them the language to explain their feelings and their emotion.
And the department or rules know, we've got to get permission of parent.
The parent, they go, yep, when he wants to go,
I'll give permission to go.
So you're covered.
Yeah, because all these other legal things we know, you know?
Of course.
I think that's the thing.

(28:44):
If you've got your 100% game face on and you're ready to have a guard
that you'll make the time to do that.
We did that.
Yes.
So you've got to have administration staff that are willing to give that a guy as well.
Of course.
And of course, knowing that they're safe where they're going to.
But for them, we've also got programs like Clontar for shooting stars.
Or I'm not sure the Queensland ones that also provide that alternative

(29:07):
space for the people that are in the hospital.
And I think that's the key space for them.

(29:29):

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(32:47):
And you've got to be aware of that.
And it's difficult because you don't want to let your team down.
And then we'll let the kids down.
There's no one in, well, I've got no car, but which means, you know,
my mates are going to have to take both my classes.
Well, you know what?
This doesn't happen often, but be aware of your own cup.
And when it does, you need, you actually need it.

(33:11):
Like exactly like you said, otherwise, you're not delivering your best at your students.
Feel it.
Your colleagues.
See it.
Yeah.
And you might, obviously, your behavior changes and you said,
"Shit, I don't normally do that."
Yes.
And then the relationship breaks down over something like that.
Yeah, I didn't mean that.
And it's okay.
It's okay.

(33:32):
Okay.
John, we were going to talk a little bit about knowing the curriculum.
And this kind of ties in really nicely to what you mentioned about two way science
and the seasons program as well, the importance of knowing your Australian curriculum.
And then once you know curriculum, you can be flexible with it and do the house.
Those powerful house.
Do you want to talk a bit about?

(33:54):
Yeah, but I think that's, you talk about silver bullets.
That's it.
One of the silver bullets is many silver bullets.
But knowing the, what is it, knowing the quicker means,
what is the intent?
What's the quicker asking you to do?
And then from that, knowing then, well, what can I do within community to do that?

(34:15):
You know?
And it's not about, like, we talk about, um,
Yes, culturally relevant, relevant.
And culturally relevant, you really understand what that means because it may be culturally relevant.
But it's also knowing that you're not, you're not disintegrating the curriculum in order to achieve that.
And that's a difficult thing to do.
That's where you need strong advice from head of departments and things like that.

(34:39):
But however, what I'll say is that you need to know the intent of the,
what is year three term one English asking you to do?
What's it asking you to do?
What's the intent?
Okay, let's design our assessment piece.
What's the assessment piece going to be and how are we going to do that?
And what I need to do to ensure that the assessment is achieveable by every single person.

(35:03):
What differentiation do I need to do?
What I need to do?
What's it saying?
It's saying to students must complete a recall of something.
It doesn't say in the curriculum that the kid has to write.
Can the kid draw or can the kid verbalize it?
And that's the thing.
And it could be something, you know, a recount of, you know, going out into the bush and talking about

(35:26):
Australian animals, which is year three curriculum, Australian animal, or animals.
Here it is.
And knowing what the intended curriculum is and the assessment piece.
The assessment piece is critical.
And then the marking guide around that.
What's the marking guide telling you to do?
And that takes a lot of effort, but also understanding.

(35:47):
So don't be afraid to say, right, what am I going to do and how am I going to do it?
At my school, we just concentrate on English.
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, get it right, get it right, get it right, get it right.
You know, we've got all the KLAs, we know that, all the areas of learning.
But I think whatever you're going to concentrate on whether it's science, English, or maths,
you can work within committees, along with your assessment pieces and why.

(36:11):
What's the intent of the curriculum?
What's the intent?
Ask that question.
What am I asking?
What do they need the kids to do?
And then how am I going to help them?
How am I going to teach?
What's my pedagogical practice is around that?
You know, it's fun, fun work, and it's hard work.
And it's making you think outside the box because if you've come from a mainstream school

(36:34):
and you've done practicum in your town or, you know, city, sometimes you don't have to do that,
that thinking beyond what's been designed in the scope and sequence in unit plans before you
or you don't really have to think outside the box.
So you don't, you just assume what you're doing is you know curriculum,
but when you really deeply know curriculum and exactly what you said,
like what's the intent of this?
Once you know that you can have those flexible, culturally relevant hands on,

(36:57):
locally based, like real life experiences for your kids,
not dumbing down, you're not just randomly going out, randomly doing things that like you said,
it always links directly back to the knowledge and SAE,
down to Australia, English, so you're trying to teach these kids.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think that's a really powerful point for new teachers to go out with,
and also your point of leaning on your head of department and your team to make sure

(37:22):
that your number one, knowing your curriculum, but also seeing how other people have done it really powerfully
and the programs and the assessments that they've done as well,
you don't have to reinvent the wheel when you're doing this either.
Exactly, and it's been done a thousand times before probably in a school,
but it gets lost, you know, the curriculum skills get lost.

(37:43):
So I mean just in community, no, you know, this time of year,
it's time the kids have been down at, you're five, down at the shops,
and they're writing about community, it's a community-based thing,
and you know, designing what community could look like, so down at the shops,
I don't know, you know.
They've seen them there before, yes, yes.
And I think that idea of curriculum or not curriculum,

(38:05):
but ideas getting lost with the high turnover of staff as well, highlights
that not only community know that your first nations educators have been through many teachers before you
and have seen what other things were.
Your assistant teachers, teacher aids are the number one.
They have goals.
Treat them like, like, you know, and there's a big turn over,
but it's getting better because now teacher aids are being treated like bloody teachers

(38:27):
and they're getting permanent, see?
So they are gold, and that relationship is critical,
and don't underestimate it.
And you know, that's the thing, that's your input.
Design together with the teacher aid.
Bring them in, bring them in, let's do this together.
What's our unit planning?
And when you've done that together, you're more likely have them,

(38:49):
you know, teaching a small group, or you teach another small group, or team teaching together,
or doing that too, we're learning too.
Exactly.
You also spoke about being aware of staff room authorisation.
Did you want to speak about that?
It happens, and when I say authorised things, you know,
you sit down and start from bloody hell.

(39:10):
I can't believe, you know, Rico has done this again, and you know,
did you see Rico's mum down in the shop on Saturday?
Oh my god, she was pissed, you know, I'm kind of sick of this place, or, you know,
that, and that authorisation has a huge impact on other people.
Be aware, and that staff room conversation, to me,

(39:31):
I've got to get really upset when I hear it.
I understand it, but the authorisation makes it no better, doesn't help you.
But more importantly, Sally sitting next to me over there,
who's been here for three weeks.
She says, "Oh shit, wouldn't work, you know, and then all of a sudden,
your authorisation becomes what we do here in the staff room."

(39:53):
You know, the safe place to go, but you've got teacher Aide sitting over here,
who's hearing, "That's actually my cousin," you're talking about that.
Well, that's that, so, don't awfulise.
Don't awfulise.
Simple as that, just be aware of what, yeah, you're pissed off.
Go do it at home somewhere, or just be aware,
what are you pissed off of that, you know?

(40:14):
Just, to me, that's really been, and I see it often.
And it brings the staff culture down when we focus on the negatives or the future?
And I'm saying where young teachers have reversed that,
because, you know, in one of my schools, an older teacher who'd been there ten years,
was an awful lot, and the young teachers went bad, opposite.

(40:35):
And he was like over here, and our young beautiful teachers,
you know, in their second, third, fourth year, were the goal,
of their love community, boom.
He was the outsider, which was great.
At first, he was, you know, you don't want that kid, or that kid,
so you've got to think of that family, they're terrible to them, you know?
And that's creating.
When a child comes to us with, like, the baggage already,

(40:56):
people telling us that this child will be hard,
and then some people might be afraid to try new things,
or they already label him, they label him,
"Pitcher," which is detrimental to everyone.
I think it also highlights the need to have your places where you do let off steam,
so whether that's your counsellor from back home,
do you stay in contact with, or a school counsellor,

(41:18):
that, you know, you know, touch base with?
But it's also important to be, like, solution-focused,
it's okay to let it out, and that's hard.
But then, what can I do?
Is it my way of perceiving things?
How can I improve this relationship with this kid
that I'm having a really tough time with?
Yeah, you're right.
And you've got to have that, and that takes a lot of self awareness
about, and it's tough, because you do lose yourself sometimes,

(41:42):
but that's self-aware, and it's okay,
but self-aware, self-aware, self-aware.
Anything else you would like to talk about in regards to remote leadership,
or remote-creditant?
Yeah, look, both my relationship and teaching,
I think it's the best opportunity you can do.
When you come to, you know, what you're going,
you know, one of my, is it, "I'm there, why am I there?"
But also, be open to, it's going to be different,

(42:05):
and it's okay.
And if you're a white fella, the middle of Brisbane,
or Sydney, or whatever, or where are, you know, in the community going,
you might not have seen what's you call an indigenous person,
"Oh, I've never seen an indigenous person."
Well, guess what? You probably have.
You probably have a lot, but you just not aware of it.
Come in the community, and then all of a sudden,
your perception is, "Oh, indigenous people are all black skin."

(42:26):
Well, actually, you know what?
Indigenous people are multi-variations of everything that's good,
but, you know, you come to community that may have, you know,
a first language, which you don't know.
You are then the outside, or even Aboriginal language.
Everybody in this is recognised, you know, as a language.
So kids are, kids are code switching all the time.

(42:49):
So just be aware, just come in and have the best time.
Be positive, and kids will love you.
Kids love you.
They go home, they sit in the shop, "Ah, me, it's so are you."
You know, you go out of the cell out of the mom, and the mom will go, "Oh, listen, we have an barbecue,
"so I've never found a family."
You come around, and it's like, "Go around, you know, just listen and watch."
You know, it's just fun.
It's really fun, and the other thing is culturally learning in the community.

(43:14):
Like at Gumballania, you know, that the rich history, you know, in Jabirou,
20k is out of town, they found the longest existing community-based Indigenous place,
which is 60,000 years old.
20k is out of town on the road.
So we get our teachers and kids going out to visit the site where the archaeologists have done it,

(43:37):
and we go, "This is the longest living evidence of Indigenous people's trail."
And then you're told, "Kids, while we live in here,
"I'll look at the beautiful wetlands out there, all the fish."
And that's why people live in here, you know?
John, you would have been in your element as someone who studied environmental science
and enjoyed all that environment stuff.

(43:59):
It was just fascinating where communities live and why,
and you go, "Well, of course you live here."
Yeah.
Especially after the wet season, there's a lot of food, and then it dries season,
and you move up land, you know?
The people in Gumballania are stone-country people.
There's all stone-country, but in the wetlands are surrounded, so.

(44:20):
But you get to know that you listen to people you go out in the country,
and you become engaged in it.
Yeah, get dirty.
I say get dirty.
Great advice.
Thank you so much for your time today.
John, you're a wealth of knowledge, and I've enjoyed chatting with you.
Anytime, look, I really love what you're doing,
and I think this type of thing is a game change as well for teachers.

(44:43):
So I think what you're doing, I really think it should be more promoted,
and it's a wonderful opportunity and you're providing.
So, and I'm happy to help any time, whatever you need, and help with people listening.
And good luck to those going in the community this year.
It's not luck, it's about having fun.
Indeed, life changing.
It's changed both our lives.

(45:04):
Of course, have a crack, you know, have a crack, have a go, and love it.
Each podcast episode, we also try and highlight or spotlight or do a shout out
from amazing businesses, organizations, groups, and services
that are working in remote communities.
This could be run or owned by First Nations people or services that

(45:26):
regularly are committed to going into remote communities and listening
and working with First Nations people.
So, here is our shout out and spotlight for this episode.
Picking up from John's lead, I'd like to talk with you about the two-way science education
Facebook groups.
So, if you search two-way science, you'll find it on there in the,

(45:49):
and the facilitators, Felicity Harris, Cam Ho, Dave Braun, Fiona Webb,
and Rita Lustard, up on there to help everyone with their two-way science questions.
But they're also sharing heaps of amazing ideas and examples of work
that's working out across communities all around Australia, but in particular WA.

(46:11):
The two-way science education groups about page says,
two-way science supports remote indigenous schools and communities to develop
integrated learning programs connecting the First Nations Science Knowledge
of local community with the science curriculum.
A two-way science approach promotes indigenous leadership in education
and fosters partnerships between schools, communities, indigenous range of

(46:34):
programs and scientists.
Carl's good friend Bart Piggroom is also involved in the project,
and sent along to us an information handout for us to learn a little more.
So, although lots of things are shared more around Australia and all different types of two-way science,
the underpinning thing is the Department of Education Two-way Science program,

(46:55):
the Two-way Science Initiative, through the Department of Education WA.
And the idea behind the program is,
I give you something and you give me something.
And it's a complex cultural concept of sharing and exchange.
The document from the Department of Education speaks to the obligation of education systems
to ensure Aboriginal knowledges are included alongside the knowledges in their other curriculum.

(47:20):
It also speaks of the obligation of schools to value and respect the gift of knowledge
and ensure that Aboriginal people are acknowledged for their participation
in the development of local, culturally responsive teaching and learning programs.
It also acknowledges that two-way science is built on the skills, knowledge and effort
over many years of Aboriginal elders, communities and schools
who have worked tirelessly to ensure Aboriginal languages and cultures are represented in Australian education systems.

(47:47):
Two-way science supports schools to engage deeply and sincerely
with the educational opportunities presented by people,
language, culture and country of the local Aboriginal community.
So, for today, spot lighting, the amazing Facebook group that you should all go and join.
Two-way science education.
You've been listening to the Remote Teacher podcast, a podcast where we discuss all things remote outback teaching.

(48:10):
Make sure you follow us on Facebook, Instagram, join our email list and our Facebook group,
teachers in remote communities, past, present and future.
Any important links mentioned or businesses or organisations to support your remote teaching
that our guests have mentioned today will be in the show notes.
So make sure you have a look at them to find out more.

(48:32):
And a reminder again, this podcast can be downloaded so you can access it when you do not have internet,
coverage or reception.
So you can listen to it on your long drives between communities in the outback.
Thank you for listening. We look forward to seeing you in the next episode of the Remote Teacher.
[A quick dance move]

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S3E4 | John Bray | Leadership

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