October 10, 2024 • 49 mins
Andy Goram sits down with leadership expert Sammy Burt to discuss the transformative concept of being leaderful. Moving beyond traditional leadership roles and titles, Sammy introduces a fresh perspective on leaderful leadership, where the focus shifts to the experience and impact leaders have on others, rather than just the authority they hold.
Together, Andy and Sammy explore the challenges of accidental leadership, the importance of self-awareness, and how to foster a human-centered leadership approach. They dive into the differences between leadership and management, uncover the power of curiosity, and discuss the emotional and relational connections crucial in effective leadership today.
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Key Takeaways- What it means to be leaderful
- The important impact of self-awareness in leadership
- How to build human-centered leadership practices
- Why curiosity is a fundamental part of leadership development
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
00:00:10 - What Does It Mean to Be Leaderful? 00:09:40 - The Challenges of Traditional Leadership Roles 00:13:28 - Leadership Is More Than a Title: It's About Impact 00:16:26 - The Impact of Poorly Defined Leadership in Organizations 00:26:49 - Leadership vs Management: Why Managing People Is a Myth 00:28:26 - Building Human-Centered Leadership Practices 00:34:33 - Navigating the Post-COVID Shift in Leadership Expectations 00:42:00 - The Importance of Curiosity In Leadership Development 00:45:02 - How To Foster A Leaderful Culture In Your Organisation
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Sammy Burt on LinkedIn here Follow Sammy Burt on Facebook here Follow Sammy Burt on Instagram here Visit the Farleigh Performance website here Find the Grown Up Book here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the
(00:13):
Inside, the employee engagement podcast
that looks at how to build stickier,
competition-smashing consistently
successful organisations from the inside
out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm
on a mission to help more businesses turn
the lights on behind the eyes of their
employees, light the fires within them,
and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe
that's something worth going after and
would like a little help and guidance in
achieving that. Each episode, we dive into
the topics that can help create what I
call stickier businesses. The sort of
businesses where people thrive and love to
work, and where more customers stay with
you and recommend you to others because
(01:01):
they love what you do and why you do it.
So if you want to take the tricky out of
being sticky, listen on. Okay then. Today
we are diving into a topic that I think
challenges the traditional concepts of
leadership. We're going to explore what it
means to be leaderful, a term that might
(01:23):
be new to some of you, but one that could
quite possibly revolutionize how you think
about leading, regardless of your job
title or the tasks you perform. So joining
me today is Sammy Burt, someone who's
driven by a real passionate desire for
more people to experience more joy in
their lives. And seeing as we spend so
(01:44):
much time at work, either being led by our
leaders or being that leader trying to
lead others, our joy is impacted on both
sides of the coin at work. And Sami also
believes that leadership today is pretty
ill defined, which can often lead to more
harm than good in our workplaces for all
concerned. In fact, she's concerned that a
(02:05):
lot of language surrounding leadership can
be weaponised, creating divisions rather
than the unity we're after. It could also
be argued at this point in history that we
need effective leadership more than ever.
Plenty of organizations are still trying
to sort out issues where the gap between
what leaders and employees want and need
can still seem wider than ever. So how do
(02:29):
we face into the frustrations that persist
and the errors that still happen and take
a sure footed move forward? And whose
responsibility is that anyway? Is it the
organization or is it the leaders
themselves? And what role do the employees
play in all that? So, so many questions
and so little time. So grab your notepad
and get ready to explore what it truly
(02:51):
means to live a leaderful life. An
approach which maybe will help you
transcend titles and focus on the impact
and being a really human centered leader.
Welcome to the show, Sammy. Hi, Andy. Hey,
thanks for having me. Hey, great to have
you here. I can't whack a conversation
(03:12):
about leadership, and especially when
someone comes in from a. From a slightly
different perspective. So I'm really
looking forward to chatting to you today.
Yes, me, too. Just so that everybody gets
to know you and we can kind of move from
that point. Just do us a quick favor,
Sammy, will you just do us a little bit of
a background into who you are, what you've
been doing, and what you're focused on
(03:32):
today? Okay. I always get nervous with the
idea of background and where to start. You
know, I was born in, and also, I think
because my background's really meandering
and I kind of dropped out of college. I've
got one shiny half an a level in fine art,
but I just tended to follow my nose. And
(03:53):
so from part time jobs into the next thing
and the next thing, and I was in
hospitality for a while and finance and
eventually brought me into marketing, and
I realized that I think the thing that I
was always following was a greater
connection with people, or perhaps a
greater proximity to more people. And that
(04:16):
took me through lots of places, and
luckily, it led me to encounter lots of
different types of people and leaders. And
my business is called backpack. And I
strongly feel that I've kind of meandered
that way, throwing things in my backpack
over my shoulder that I'm sure will be
useful to me in time and already are. And
(04:38):
that obsession with people really then led
me to working in what's often referred to
as culture, as we know, but mostly feels
like having the important conversations
with people or smashing the silence was a
phrase that I started playing with last
week, you know, spotting the elephants in
(04:59):
the room and just going, should we talk
about that for a bit? And so now I work
with organizations on culture, on
leadership development, drifting into
purpose sometimes that even with. With
really people centered organizations
drifts into the business strategy as a
whole. And I feel incredibly lucky and
privileged to do so. Well, I'm with you on
(05:23):
that. I think where you get to focus your
entire time consciously on trying to have
a positive impact on others and help them
really fulfill their full potential. I
mean, that is a rewarding place to be, and
yet that is the job of most leaders, and
it just flies over their head a lot of the
(05:44):
time, because I'm in the job, I'm in the
do. I'm in the tasks. So I think we're in
a privileged position, right? I think so.
Absolutely. And I think, I mean, part of
that privilege is that you can't do this
kind of work without it changing you. So
I'm always on a developmental journey and,
you know, a new client comes through the
door and there is a new challenge in there
(06:04):
and there will be something new to notice
about myself in that mix. And what of that
is useful and what of it isn't? So it can
be quite sometimes feel quite self
indulgent, actually, because I'm
constantly in conversation with myself
about me and what it is that I'm bringing
to the party. We are a very interesting
person, Sammy. Why wouldn't we be
(06:26):
interested? Yeah, but no, yeah. I think it
is the job of all leaders, so I'm sure
we'll come into that. I'm absolutely
confident we will. As a fellow marketer, I
do love a link between a company name, a
way of life, and actually the job we're
trying to do. So the whole kind of
backpack meandering journey stuff, I love.
(06:47):
I absolutely love that. I know you're also
kind of, you're, I guess, mid book writing
at the moment. Yeah, I'm going to
optimistically say post mid. Wow, that's
good. That says progress. That's his
progress. I'm sort of three ish years into
the research and I'm pretty close now to
(07:08):
finishing the words that will summarise
that research. And it's a book. Trying to
answer the question, what is a grown up?
Oh my God. A question that I think a lot
of people hold and is akin to kind of
imposter syndrome and that space. But I
(07:29):
certainly noticed it, noticed myself not
feeling like a grown up yet at every age
that I've been and wondering, why is that?
And then it sort of dawned on me one day.
I was like, well, I don't actually know
what one is in order to know if I am one
or not. So I set out on this journey to
try and work out, so what is it? And then
we can work out how we're doing against
(07:50):
that. And as you can imagine, that too has
been a journey for me. Wow. I mean, that
is something I would love to hear about
when it gets there. And perhaps you can
answer some questions for all of us. I
want us to have a good old look today at
this leadership thing. I get to see, I
(08:12):
guess I'm very lucky. I get to see a whole
host of people at the moment around the
world who want to come onto podcasts and
want to talk about stuff. And let's be
honest, and actually, we've had this
conversation before. When we talk about
leadership, you could be rowing out the
same old stuff. It's a very busy space of
lots of people saying lots of common sense
(08:34):
things, but trying to find a different
perspective and cut through can be tough.
Right? Can be difficult. And that wasn't a
problem with you. When I saw your
information and then I saw a few of your
videos and bits and pieces. This whole
concept of leaderful I thought was really
(08:55):
interesting to look into. You know, I've
heard all the kind of leadership. Not
leadership things. Oh, nice. I like that
one. There was one for you. But I liked
the idea of leaderful. You know, it, to
me, it really played to my own purpose of,
like, trying to help people have more
fulfilling work lives. Your. Your thing
(09:16):
about trying to have people experience
more joy, I just felt that's a nice
connection that'd be worthwhile talking
about, but just help me get out of my rose
tinted world. When you think about leader
full, there must be some kind of problem
that you were trying to sort of, like,
view in leadership and take a different
position on to come up with something like
(09:38):
that. What was that thing? Yeah. Well, if
I. Let's go. Let's go to the word
leadership, if I may. Then I think I see
people in positions of leadership all the
time. And a bit like idea of being a grown
up. It is a suit of armor that we wear, or
(09:59):
it's the, you know, the thing on our. On
our business cards or our email signatures
or whatever. It's. It feels very much like
a thing. It is a named thing that can be
fairly surface level. Right. You are. You
are now, Andy, in a position of
leadership. Well done, you. Thank you very
much. Right, there we go. And now you can
(10:20):
wear that and you can, you know, and
everyone around you will see that. And I
think, actually, what we often find and
what I encounter a lot in organizations is
accidental leaders. Yeah. People who have
been promoted. You know, there's the old.
I don't like the Peter principle, you
know, the Peter principle. Being promoted
(10:43):
to your highest level of incompetence,
which I think is desperately unfair,
actually. But there's something that, you
know, they're cousins, if you like, in
this thinking, this idea that being an
accidental leader is to be promoted out of
the thing you were really great at. And
because of the way that we perceive
progression, particularly in the UK and
(11:04):
the western world, going up the hierarchy
or the ladder, and we can do a whole
nother podcast on that one, means I move
out of things that I'm good at, and I move
into people management. Yeah. So the
higher up the organization that I go, I
have more and more people to lead until I
get really close to the top and then they
slim down again. But very few people are
(11:30):
given the support or guidance that they
need as they move from being an individual
contributor, an expert, or whatever it
might be into a leader. There's this
assumption, a bit like being a grown up,
where we're kind of born with leadership
skills and you will now know how to go on
(11:50):
and prioritize and delegate and manage
time and have difficult conversations and
motivate and all of these things which in
themselves are, you know, that's a whole
personality right there, 100%. So I feel
like this idea of moving people into
leadership and then kind of dropping them
there and seeing what happens is really
(12:12):
unfair on both the individual who is doing
what we've all been trained to do and just
go up the ladder, the people that they are
leading. And of course, the organization
isn't getting the best performance from
those as well. So I started to think about
what would be more helpful in its framing.
And I like this idea of to be leaderful as
(12:36):
more of an adjective. Yeah. A bit like
delightful or beautiful. Right. Not many
people would say I am beautiful. Somebody
else describes you as that, or I am
delightful. As you know, that's a word
that other people use when they experience
you. I experience you, Andy, to be
delightful. I experience you to be
(12:58):
leaderful. So it's something that is
experienced by the people around you as
well as you, rather than it being this
thing that we put on. And so if we are
looking for something that is in the eye
of the beholder, let's say, well, then
we're going to have to go a little bit
deeper than job titles and business cards,
and we're going to have to go inward. And
(13:18):
so I feel like leaderful asks something
that is more action orientated of us
because we have to try to be. We have to
enact beautifulness. I love that position
of experience of somebody else's
experience of your. Of your leadership. I
really. I really. I really, really like
that because, well, we use the word impact
(13:40):
probably too many times at the start of
today's episode. And that perspective of
what did it feel like being led by you?
That's something I think everybody can
kind of really relate to. Right. I think
that is something we've all seen. Yeah.
Yeah. What does it feel like to work with
(14:00):
me? Like, it's such a. An open question
and a non threatening question. It's not,
how's my leadership? It's just, what is
this? What is this feeling like? How's
this relationship going for you? It's a
brave question for many people to ask,
right. I mean, because they might not want
to hear what comes, comes back. It might
be a surprising question for people to be
asked because how many people are asked
(14:22):
that, that question that sets up a whole
bunch of stuff because I'm with you 100%.
The transition from I'm good at what I do
to oh, right now I'm going to do people.
There is huge assumption that every wants
that every can do that. In my experience,
(14:44):
largely people are pretty unprepared for
what it's really like. The person you sat
next to one day is now the person you've
got to critique the work and say, hmm,
actually I need a little bit more from
you. Yeah, that's a tough transition for a
lot of people. It is. And I think there's
a whole mindset shift because you're
literally being asked to go on one day
(15:05):
from we will deem your value by your
productivity, but tomorrow if you could
come in and then we're going to deem your
value by the productivity of others. I
mean, I'm speaking fairly bluntly, but I
think that's a massive mindset shift to go
from I have to be the person to do things
to I have to be the person that gets
(15:25):
things done is huge. And one that I see a
lot of people battling with and
questioning their own value. Well, hold
on, if I am not busy all the time doing,
then why am I valuable? Why would you keep
me? Does that put me at risk? It really
starts to speak to these fears of kind of
conditional relationships in the
organization. And I see people all the
(15:48):
time trying to fit in their leadership
around the thing that they used to do. And
instead of going, actually, if I were to
upskill the ten people that I now lead,
they could do all of this. The
performance, the output, the impact,
etcetera, would be much higher. But we're
(16:09):
really stuck in this. My value is the
thing that I do. So is this, I mean, I
mentioned it in the intro, but is this why
you have this feeling position, if I'm
going to be grandiose about it, that you
feel that leadership's ill defined in a
lot of cases today? Yeah. Is this why?
Yeah, I think so. I think. I think it's
(16:32):
ill defined and it's. And it's. And no one
is attempting to define it in many
organizations. I think that's the other
thing. I kind of wouldn't mind if no one
had a clear, certain definition of it. If
we were all just talking about it all the
time because we would be developing our
own ones and we'd be more curious as to
what it might be. But actually, most
(16:52):
organisations are just putting people in
positions of leadership and then walking
away. You know, that's that done. And so
this lack of a greater definition just
sets people up for failure or for a
mediocre sense of what leadership could
be. William. And I think that's what I
wanted to find out from you in the work
(17:12):
that you've done and you continue to do,
what's the fallout of this poorly defined
role? Is that even right? And then the
support or lack of it that's given to
someone to make that transition? I mean, I
think we've all experienced that either in
(17:32):
ourselves, being put in a situation that
we just can't cope with or aren't sure
what to deliver. But also having
experienced, I guess, not great leadership
from others through either, perhaps no
fault of their own, perhaps they have been
dropped in the deep and with no experience
or guide, or they're just terrible at it.
(17:54):
And what have you seen as the fallout in a
lot of the work? Are there any sort of
commonalities that this ill definition is
bringing forth? Well, I think where
there's gaps, people will fill those gaps.
Right. So the lack of, in my view, a
useful, helpful definition of leadership
is then filled by often a sense that, oh,
(18:16):
as a leader, I need to have all the
answers. That's what being a leader is. Or
I need to set the direction alone. You
know, I need to be at the front of this.
And these are, you know, common tropes
that I'm sure most, most people listening
to this will have experienced or seen or,
you know, you've got the meme on LinkedIn
of that sort of leadership where this is a
(18:38):
dictatorship rather than an involvement.
And that's not necessarily. Well, I very
rarely actually meet people who do that
and want to do that, but they don't
realize there's another way. You know,
very often meet leaders who are telling
people what to do very clearly and how to
do it. But then you talk to them about
(18:59):
their private life and they're coaching
football teams on Saturday mornings or
they're, you know, they're in choirs and
stuff and. And they're doing things
outside of it where they haven't noticed
that they are. They can be leaders and so
they're much more collaborative. They just
haven't made that sort of connection into
the workplace. So an individual level, I
always think, I always. My first place to
(19:20):
go, I suppose is empathy for that
individual who is trying to be something
that they're not sure what that looks like
and what success would look like in that
role. And so a personal level, I see lots
of leaders burning out because they're
trying to be productive and do the people
management bit. I see them not having the
joy they had before. You know, I'd got
(19:42):
into this to be an engineer and now I'm
managing engineers well, that's the last
thing I ever want. You know, that's not,
that's not what lights me up or feels
purposeful and a sense of inadequacy
often. So because they haven't been
equipped or supported to be at their best,
they aren't at their best and then they
(20:03):
feel like that's their fault because there
is this kind of unwritten thing that, oh,
well, everyone can do leadership. You
don't need guidance to do leadership. So
then if you're sat there feeling like, oh,
well, I don't think I'm doing it very
well, of course, then you're going to feel
like a failure and you're going to feel
kind of impotent in your ability to change
that situation because no one else is
(20:24):
asking for leadership support. So I feel
like there's this kind of a really
negative effect on the individual that is
very, very sad. And then, of course,
there's the ripples out from that to the
teams that they are leading, or even just
one individual that they're leading, who
then, as you say, you know, we've, most of
us, or many people will have experienced
(20:46):
leaders that we don't deem to be very
good, but we're colluding with it. Because
we judge competence in different ways as
well, right? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.
Yeah. Really good point. We do. And so if
you're in an organisation that, that
massively values productivity and you see
someone trying to be a leader through
connection and relationship, well, then
(21:07):
you may be deciding that now they're in a
position of leadership, they're not doing
enough, right. So we're harsh on them in
one way, but we're colluding with the
whole thing because someone is moved into
a position of leadership and then we look
to them for all of the answers and. And we
are not also saying, hey, leadere, I can
help you with that. How is this going for
(21:28):
you now? How many times have people been
promoted around us? And instead of going
to them and saying, how's the new role
going? We're sort of just looking at them,
waiting for them to either succeed or
fail. We're not seeing them as another
human being who has also just had a
massive change in their career, who might
need to talk about that or explore that a
little. William. We seem to get caught in
that. It's always down to a two by two,
(21:50):
isn't it, when you talk about business?
But it always seems to come down to ease
and speed on a two by two. And I think one
of the biggest challenges is just like
you've sort of said stuff we're graded on
throughout our careers, early careers, on
how good we are with the amount of stuff
(22:11):
in general that we get through, like, oh,
you. He's a hard worker. Look how much
he's done. Yeah. And when you're thinking
about leadership and trying to grow and
encourage and inspire and motivate a team,
that takes time. And if we're still being
graded on getting a load of shit done
(22:32):
today, then, well, it's easier for me to
give you the answer and tell you what to
do rather than encourage you to think
about it or go and try and try something
and make a mistake. And what are you going
to learn from it? We seem to be sort of
like caught between this kind of short
term, medium term pressures all over
business, whether it's the numbers we're
going after today or the way we're trying
to grow people. Absolutely. It's almost.
(22:53):
You're almost undermining leadership from
the start if you don't have this
definition. But even the definition in an
organization could be very, very narrow.
Right? We want leaders like this. Yeah.
Yeah, it could be. And in some weird way,
if that works, then. Then that's cool,
too. It's something about setting an
expectation and being measured against
(23:14):
that expectation and being in constant
conversation about that. I think what we
could accidentally do, even in this
conversation, is put these failings with a
lowercase f, if you like, at the feet of
the organization or the institution. And
of course, the reality is organizations
don't exist. They are lots of people
(23:37):
organized in a certain pattern. And so as
soon as we start to say it's them or it's
they or whatever, we move away from them
being human, too, and us colluding in the
problem. So if an organisation hasn't well
defined leadership, then there's no reason
why anyone in that organisation can't
(23:57):
start to ask the question. But again, we
look up this ladder that we've created and
say, well, surely it should come from the
top. And that kind of undermines the idea
of. Of leadership and dispersed leadership
as well. Sorry, I'm going a bit off track.
No, you're not. I'm just getting excited.
No, because this is what happens in this.
(24:18):
I think what happens in good conversations
is you think about stuff and someone's
talking, you know, I'm listening to you
going, yeah, I mean, this could be simple
or incredibly complex. And that's a thing
my brain doesn't handle right very well
going backwards and forwards between those
sorts of things. But I, you know, there's
the added, I guess, complexity on that is
(24:40):
that we, we will encourage people to find
your own style of leadership. Well, okay,
that's great, but I'm not quite sure what
I'm trying to do. I'm just gonna be me.
Yeah, but doing. Doing what? And how
effective can that, can that be? So here's
a thing I'm not quite sure about, but I've
got to put my own stamp on it. I mean,
that's an interesting question for someone
(25:01):
to get their head around. Well, and it's
fixed. It says, this is your style of
leadership. You are now green. That's your
style of leadership. That's the box we're
going to put you in. And that's how we are
always going to see you, rather than
recognizing that both you as the leader
will have many different styles depending
on the day and what you have for
(25:22):
breakfast. Right. So there's that side of
it, and there is the other side. And this
goes back to some really, you know, this
is probably 60 years old now as a theory,
but something called situational
leadership, which is about thinking about
the individual that you're leading, but
also the thing that they are doing. So,
Andy, if, you know, for you and I were
working together, there might be one thing
(25:43):
that you do that you've been doing for ten
years and you're smashing it. Right. And
so the leadership you need from me around
that thing is very hands off. Yeah. But
there is a new thing that you've just
picked up that you've never done before.
And so the leadership you need from me
around that thing is much closer. You
know, I'm going to bring that proximity
and I'm going to coach a lot closer. And
while I think the world is more complex
(26:04):
than that, I still think that that is a
useful way of thinking, not about what's
my leadership style, but what is needed of
me in this moment. Yeah. And within that,
just to further complicate it, again,
there's, I guess, the nuances between
managing someone and then leading
somebody. Even in the situational
(26:26):
awareness stuff. Yeah. Even the different
hats that we wear. Absolutely. And I think
this is where, again, without clear
definition, without clear support, without
the right equipping of tools and
confidence to kind of get this stuff
right, we see more mistakes. Obviously the
wrong approach taken, or perhaps not the
(26:47):
most effective approach, as opposed to
wrong. Yeah. And I think. Yes, and I was
grinning when you said the difference
between management leadership, because I.
There's not many things that I'm super
firm about. Right. I hope she's going to
be good. I can tell you. But this is for.
I don't think you can manage people. That
is a really inconvenient truth. I'm sorry,
(27:07):
but I don't think you can manage people.
You can manage tasks, you can manage
projects, you can manage systems, you
can't manage people. You can lead people,
and you can encourage people to do what
needs to get done, and you can do that in
different ways. But unless you go right
into kind of coercive control style
(27:29):
situations, we can't be managed. And I
think that's one of the myths that has us
tangled up a lot of the time, is we think
that moving from being an individual
contributor where I do a thing, and I'm
going to stay with engineers for a moment.
Right. So I come in and I manage the
system around x now, you've given me a
load of people to manage. I can manage
(27:50):
them in the same way that I do a system,
which is that I tell them a brief, I tell
them how to do it. They go and do it. They
come back, I check, it works. We go around
the loop again. And that's not how we work
as humans. We are desperate constantly for
connection and relationship. And so I
think that's one of the things that would
be really helpful. You know, even if
organizations just sort of shifted, one
(28:11):
tiny thing would be to stop talking about
people management or the idea that we ever
can and start to lean into that mindset
that says, I can only ever create an
environment in which you might succeed. As
someone in my team, that's the realms of
my control. Listen, I think that's great
for me, that leadership thing is all about
that it create the environment where
(28:32):
people can flourish. If I look back at my
career normally through, well, from behind
the sofa, through sort of like fingers
across my eyes, that there were good
things I did, there were terrible things
that I did, and hopefully I learned from
them. But at the end of the day, that was
my realization was my job at this point is
(28:53):
to create the environment. It's not to do
the stuff it's not to pick up the sharpies
and design everything. It was to kind of
encourage and empower everybody else
around me to kind of like, go get it. And
there were lots of different things that
involved in building that environment. It
could have been shielding them. It could
have been supporting them, it could have
been challenging them. It could have been
breaking down barriers as it could have
(29:14):
been all sorts of things. That was my job.
I am very keen to move into thinking about
this leaderful piece and what it looks
like, perhaps. Where are some of the
things it's run into? But I do just want
to pick up on something that you mentioned
when I first met you and we had our first
chat because you said something that stuck
(29:36):
with me for a long time about the language
associated around leadership and it being
weaponized. And I've never, I'd never
thought of that concept before. Yeah, I
think there's a, there's a lot of judgment
that goes alongside it. And I, and I hope
that anyone listening to this isn't
hearing judgment in you and I, but it's
(29:58):
probably there under the skin. Right.
Because we have views and we have
perspectives. But I think a lot like
saying to someone, grow up. Man up. Grow
up, be a grown up. You know, what's your
shoe size? All those, all those things we
used to say. I feel like there's a similar
thing in leadership. And I hear it when
people say, but they're in a position of
(30:19):
leadership, they shouldn't be doing that.
Okay, well, did anybody help them know
that? Did anybody guide them on that? I
think there's certain words now that have
really negative connotations. So
accountability for me is a fabulous word,
but it is so often used as, like a cover
(30:42):
up for blame. Right. I want to say blame,
but I can't say blame. Passive aggressive.
It's passive aggressive. And it is
something I demand of you. I demand
leadership. I demand accountability. I
demand responsibility. All these words
that are themselves beautiful words when
you really sit and think about it. I want
to be accountable because that says that
(31:04):
I've got ownership over this thing and
I've got some autonomy around it and I'm
going to be proud of it and I'm going to.
Lovely stuff. But, but they've been used
in negative ways that has then made them
become very unhelpful. And I think where
you and I went with this conversation last
week was then this sense of, how can I ask
(31:25):
accountability of people without sounding
like, I want you to commit to something
that I'm going to hit over your head with
next week, you know, I want you to sign up
to something so that I can. I can hold it
against you. And that shared sense of
responsibility then, that we ask of is,
for me, is diminishing. Yeah. So we're
(31:46):
ending up with leaders who hold absolute
responsibility for the people that they.
That they work with rather than
recognizing that they, too are grown ups
or whatever word we want to use, are
adults navigating this world, and they can
be, and for the most part, want to be
responsible for themselves. But we've
(32:07):
ended up in this parent child environment
where leaders or managers or whatever we
want to call them are the parents, and
those that are reporting into them are the
children. Or I'd probably say the
adolescents. Yeah. You know, there is a
teenage thing there. It's ennui in there.
They won't do that. There's a real
(32:29):
passivity going on in that way that's
like, just tell me what you want and I'll
do it. Or I won't do it if I don't want to
do it and if I don't believe in it.
Because you're the leader and the buck
stops with you, and that's okay. And
leaders collude with that by saying,
here's what I want doing and here's how I
want it done. So we are both in
relationships that we don't really want to
be in. The parent doesn't really want to
(32:50):
be parenting all these grown ups around
them. Most adults don't really want to be
parented by someone at work. But what it
does do when that relationship is in place
is it counters this fear of I'm going to
be held to blame for something, I'm going
to be held accountable in a negative sense
for something. So, actually, if I'm just a
kid here, it's not really my fault. So if
(33:13):
we have that in the back of our minds,
that relationship piece, and we go back to
your, frankly, wonderful definition of
leaderful being, the experience somebody
else has of your leadership, and we think
about perhaps this human connection piece,
just the humanity of it all. And you have
(33:39):
correctly, outside of this episode,
cautioned me about my continued use of the
c word. And just for the benefit of the
tape, that's Covid, gang. That is not
anything else. I have said many times that
I wondered whether we have missed a trick
(33:59):
in the last few years. Because a few years
ago, when the c word was happening, there
seemed to me to be this bowel wave of
humanity that came back in to business. At
least that's what I felt. I felt people
were taking an interest in others. Good
leaders were connected and in touch with
their people. A greater level of
understanding seemed to get, and therefore
(34:20):
support from both sides seemed to be more
equitable, more natural. But I'm getting
the feeling like we're kind of moving away
from that stuff at the moment and almost
regressing. I think what happened was
these really beautiful things where
leaders took a lot of responsibility for
their people's wellbeing and organizations
(34:42):
took a lot of responsibility for their
people's wellbeing. And that was welcomed
and I think in many, many ways was exactly
what needed to happen. You know, we needed
organizations to just say, right, don't
come in tomorrow, work from here. Do that.
Here's a laptop. You know, whatever it
might be, we needed someone to take charge
of the situation. But what I am now
(35:04):
noticing all these years on is that
organizations are now looking to their
employees or their colleagues to take some
responsibility back. But we've got quite
comfortable, actually, with people saying,
no, no, no, I'll be responsible for your
well being. I'll be responsible for how
you're doing. And so there's this sort of
(35:24):
tension going on between colleagues
looking to organizations say, you're
supposed to look after me. You're supposed
to remove the barriers ahead of me and
just let me succeed. Which sounds like a
really great thing. Yeah, but they've got
no skin in the game. No, they're not
taking responsibility for their own
development, their own journey, and their
own well being. To say, you know,
(35:45):
actually, if I'm in a, if I'm in a shitty
relationship with my boss, it is as much
my responsibility as it is theirs. To say
this doesn't feel like it's going very
well. I think there feels like an
imbalance in the force right now. There
just feels like it's gone from one extreme
to the other in some cases. I am
(36:08):
absolutely, desperately not preaching this
is everywhere, because it isn't. But it
just feels that there's more of a common
thread here, that it's imbalanced. I think
your point about where's the
responsibility or accountability here. Is
it the organization? Is it the leader? Is
it the employee? Something's got to change
in the majority of organizations right now
to get back to a more even keel, where
(36:30):
people do feel seen, heard and valued, but
they also understand we've got stuff, we
got to do stuff. Yeah. And I think there's
a real fear in talking about that. So I
was away with some clients last year, and
we were having a drink after sort of
working together for a day. And the cooze
and I were chatting, and he sort of leant
(36:50):
in close like he was going to tell me a
secret or something. And he said, do you
think people should be a little more
resilient at times? And it was really
interesting because it looked like it was
coming from a place of fear. Like, I can't
ask for resilience of people. And funnily
enough, just last week I was in a
(37:12):
conversation with a client, and. And his
fear was around mental health. And I don't
for a second want to dilute or talk down
at all about people with genuine mental
health issues, but I do feel like there's
a lot of people who are starting to talk
about my mental health. And what they mean
is, I would like you to create an
(37:34):
environment around me in which everything
works the way that I want it to. And I
really want to bang on the drum of. I'm
not saying that everyone with mental
health is saying that, but, like, by any
means, no one thinks that, Sammy. No one
in. But it's a watch out, I think. And
even actually, me feeling the need to
repeat it is probably a really good
(37:55):
symptom of the fear that we have in
society right now of talking about mental
health and talking about when there is a
responsibility of the individual to
consider themselves as well and the
environment that they are in and the
choices they have to make. And so I think
part of being. Part of being a grown up,
actually, is knowing what choices do I
(38:17):
have available to me, and what might those
choices lead to? You know, what. What's
within my control and what's not. I think
that's such an important question. I love
the covey spheres of control, influence
and concern model because I think that is
so applicable not just in the way that he
(38:37):
designed it, but just in getting people to
understand where it's really effective in
moving themselves forward and sort of
starting to live their potential. And then
the two words, conscious and intentional,
you know, being aware of what you do and
having a reason for doing it. I think you
combine those three things in this concept
of leadership. I think that's not a bad
(38:59):
platform to kind of go forward with,
right? Yeah. And if we take that platform,
Sammy, and we come back to your lovely
positioning around leaderful, how do we
deal with some of the things that we've
talked about today? What do you think
leaderfulness looks like? What's the
(39:20):
picture in your mind, and how do we move
towards that? The picture in my so I don't
think we could have had this conversation
without a Venn diagram. We need to sneak a
ven in somewhere. And while this isn't
something I've drawn out, I think, and I
am terrible for knowing who to credit on
these things, but the original kind of me,
us in it diagram. So imagining a ven and
(39:46):
you have one of those circles, has it in
it, and it is there to represent the
context that we're in. So it might be the
task that we're working on, it might be
the environment we're in, but it is
essentially the things that humans are
interacting with as opposed to the human
element. Then there is the me part of
this. And I think this is where leaders
(40:06):
often fall down, is their attention is
outward far more than it is inward. What's
going on for me right now? What am I
bringing to this? If I walk into a meeting
and I'm frustrated with something
external, and I walk into a meeting and
I'm carrying that frustration, well, that,
of course, is going to have an impact on
what's going on around me. So really
(40:27):
tuning in with how you are, I think, is,
is a key component. And then if you look
at where those, then those circles start
to overlap, and how do I feel about this
thing that we're starting to do or we're
trying to do? How does the me interact
with the it? And then if we bring in that
third one of us, that starts to bring in
(40:49):
the relational side of this. You know,
this isn't individualistic. We cannot lead
on our own. We can't sit in a white room
unimpacted by the world around us and be
leaders. We are in relationship
constantly. So looking inward to me,
understanding myself, where I'm at, my
relationship with the thing that it is
we're working on, and my relationship with
(41:12):
the team around me, the people that I'm
interacting with, that might be one
person, that could be a thousand people.
But I think when people are truly
leaderful, they are moving seamlessly
between those three circles and giving
attention, really conscious and deliberate
attention to all of those spaces, but
(41:32):
particularly the human ones. If you like,
the it comes later. The it come. The it
actually may come from the US much more
than it does for me. I just might need to
know the vision around it. And actually
giving my attention to the relationships
that I'm in is, is the most key thing
here. So in terms of how you do that, I
mean, I think the first thing is to be
really open and curious. And if that were
(41:55):
the only thing I think that would be still
hugely impactful in most. Most people and
most organizations. Yeah. Taking a genuine
interest in the people that you're working
with. Absolutely. And in myself, you know,
what's really going on for me right now?
Why do I feel this way about this person
or this thing or this timeline or whatever
it might be? Being really curious about
(42:17):
the assumptions that I make, being really
curious about the tensions. I think we
often, when we notice a tension in
something, you know, there's two opposing
views, we convince ourselves that we have
to decide upon one of them. But actually,
sometimes there are tensions, and both are
right. You just have to notice them and be
(42:37):
curious about them. So I really feel like
if leaders could stay in discovery more,
be curious more about the me, the us, and
the it, that would go a huge way to
shifting the. The impact or the experience
that others have of us if that were the
starting point. Wow. It's so much more
(42:58):
than a starting point, isn't it? Yeah,
it's so much more. I suppose I say that's
the starting point because what comes
after probably looks. I'm staring at,
like, a multicolored blanket here. It's
probably a rainbow, right? Yeah. You know,
that starting point will kick off
different things for all different people.
Curiosity may make one leader actually
(43:18):
realize their fallibility and recognize
that they have the experts around them,
and they are leading a group of experts so
that the experts can do the great thing.
They don't have to do it. I think that's
one of the most important things for
leaders to get comfy with. Right. And I
know another podcast episode about
imposter syndrome, we'll get in the way of
all that kind of stuff. But I think this
(43:39):
definitely comes back to thinking more
consciously about the impact of your
leadership, which is where the leaderful
thing really is beautiful in its
phraseology. I really, really, really like
that. And then I think just bringing that
kind of human, the humanity into that
impact as a conscious thing, and without
(44:01):
wanting to sound all happy clappy, but
that. We love a bit of woo woo. Well, you
know what? I'm on board the woo woo train
when it comes to this stuff, right?
Because it works. And I think this is what
gets conflated in a lot of people's minds,
is when they. They go from being a
colleague to being, all of a sudden
they're a. They're a leader. I've got a
(44:21):
different badge. I've got a different
thing to do. No, it's not a different
thing. You're just looking at it from a
different perspective. You've still got to
bring the human to get the best out of
somebody else. Like you said, I don't know
too many adults who like being told how to
behave or what to do, you've got to create
an environment where they want to do the
things that need to happen. And that's a
(44:43):
skill. Yeah, absolutely. I cannot believe
we're at this point already, but we're at
the sticky notes point of this podcast,
which is an attempt to drill down into
three really simple takeaways from today
that you could stick on. Three little post
it notes. Samuel. Yeah, so when we think
(45:05):
about this wonderful, leaderful position,
if someone wants to start the journey and
begin living a more leaderful life, what
would you put on three sticky notes today?
So I really honed in on the how do you
write it on a post it, the sticky note.
And I think the first one is talk to
(45:25):
yourself about yourself more. Love that.
So to find time, even just a heartbeat,
just before I say something, just before I
open a door, just before whatever, and go,
oh, what's going on for me right now? Talk
to yourself about yourself more, I think
is a key component, and all the research
supports that in terms of great leaders,
(45:45):
it's a key quality, is that self
regulation, self awareness? I think the
second one is noticing the connections. We
coexist. We have to, and we want to, you
know, we've evolved to want to. So notice
those connections and notice the gap
(46:06):
between us as well. You know, the space
between you and I is our relationship.
Yeah. And let's give it attention. Let's
not just look at me and look at you. Let's
give attention to that connection, that
space between us. And the third, you won't
be surprised to hear, is probably
curiosity is king, as far as I'm
concerned. I used to have a boss who I
love dearly, and he used to say, cash is
(46:26):
king. And I think I've evolved that
slightly, that curiosity is king.
Actually, we need to spend much longer in
discovery. We need to spend much longer
wondering about things and wondering about
them together. And I think that's a real
key for successful leadership, is to come
to your team with questions, not answers.
(46:50):
I think they are three incredibly
practical, yet very humanistic sticky
notes that I tell you what, if we all did
a bit more of those, I think the world at
work would be an easier place to stay.
Sammy, thank you so much for coming into
sticky studios today and just sharing your
(47:11):
really honest thoughts about what
leadership can be, not necessarily what it
is really love listening to you. Thank
you. And thank you for rolling with me on
that as well. We went on a little journey
together there. I've loved our
conversation. I'm very grateful for you
coming and doing that before I let you go.
If people want to find out more about you,
(47:31):
if they want to join the queue to get the
book when it eventually, where can people
find out more? Sammy? Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I am a LinkedIn addict, self
confessed, so you can find me on LinkedIn,
Sammy, Burt and I'll pop up there and then
my company website, which then has a page
on it about the book, is yourbackpack dot
(47:53):
co dot UK. So yourbackpack dot co dot UK
and you'll see a page on there called the
grown up book where you can register for
updates. Brilliant. Well, we'll make sure
all of that goes in the show notes and so
people can find out all the stuff and join
that queue. Sammy, thanks so much, mate,
for coming. And I absolutely loved our
conversation and I hope it's not our last.
(48:13):
Thank you. Me too. Cheers, Andy. Take
care. Take care. Okay, everyone, that was
Sammy Burt, and if you'd like to find out
a bit more about Sammy or any of the
things we've talked about today, please
check out the show notes. So that
concludes today's episode. I hope you've
enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard
(48:36):
something maybe that will help you become
a sticky, more successful business from
the inside going forwards. If you have,
please like, comment and subscribe. It
really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've
been listening to the sticky from the
inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the
(00:13):
Inside, the employee engagement podcast
that looks at how to build stickier,
competition-smashing consistently
successful organisations from the inside
out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm
on a mission to help more businesses turn
the lights on behind the eyes of their
employees, light the fires within them,
and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe
that's something worth going after and
would like a little help and guidance in
achieving that. Each episode, we dive into
the topics that can help create what I
call stickier businesses. The sort of
businesses where people thrive and love to
work, and where more customers stay with
you and recommend you to others because
(01:01):
they love what you do and why you do it.
So if you want to take the tricky out of
being sticky, listen on. Okay then. Today
we are diving into a topic that I think
challenges the traditional concepts of
leadership. We're going to explore what it
means to be leaderful, a term that might
(01:23):
be new to some of you, but one that could
quite possibly revolutionize how you think
about leading, regardless of your job
title or the tasks you perform. So joining
me today is Sammy Burt, someone who's
driven by a real passionate desire for
more people to experience more joy in
their lives. And seeing as we spend so
(01:44):
much time at work, either being led by our
leaders or being that leader trying to
lead others, our joy is impacted on both
sides of the coin at work. And Sami also
believes that leadership today is pretty
ill defined, which can often lead to more
harm than good in our workplaces for all
concerned. In fact, she's concerned that a
(02:05):
lot of language surrounding leadership can
be weaponised, creating divisions rather
than the unity we're after. It could also
be argued at this point in history that we
need effective leadership more than ever.
Plenty of organizations are still trying
to sort out issues where the gap between
what leaders and employees want and need
can still seem wider than ever. So how do
(02:29):
we face into the frustrations that persist
and the errors that still happen and take
a sure footed move forward? And whose
responsibility is that anyway? Is it the
organization or is it the leaders
themselves? And what role do the employees
play in all that? So, so many questions
and so little time. So grab your notepad
and get ready to explore what it truly
(02:51):
means to live a leaderful life. An
approach which maybe will help you
transcend titles and focus on the impact
and being a really human centered leader.
Welcome to the show, Sammy. Hi, Andy. Hey,
thanks for having me. Hey, great to have
you here. I can't whack a conversation
(03:12):
about leadership, and especially when
someone comes in from a. From a slightly
different perspective. So I'm really
looking forward to chatting to you today.
Yes, me, too. Just so that everybody gets
to know you and we can kind of move from
that point. Just do us a quick favor,
Sammy, will you just do us a little bit of
a background into who you are, what you've
been doing, and what you're focused on
(03:32):
today? Okay. I always get nervous with the
idea of background and where to start. You
know, I was born in, and also, I think
because my background's really meandering
and I kind of dropped out of college. I've
got one shiny half an a level in fine art,
but I just tended to follow my nose. And
(03:53):
so from part time jobs into the next thing
and the next thing, and I was in
hospitality for a while and finance and
eventually brought me into marketing, and
I realized that I think the thing that I
was always following was a greater
connection with people, or perhaps a
greater proximity to more people. And that
(04:16):
took me through lots of places, and
luckily, it led me to encounter lots of
different types of people and leaders. And
my business is called backpack. And I
strongly feel that I've kind of meandered
that way, throwing things in my backpack
over my shoulder that I'm sure will be
useful to me in time and already are. And
(04:38):
that obsession with people really then led
me to working in what's often referred to
as culture, as we know, but mostly feels
like having the important conversations
with people or smashing the silence was a
phrase that I started playing with last
week, you know, spotting the elephants in
(04:59):
the room and just going, should we talk
about that for a bit? And so now I work
with organizations on culture, on
leadership development, drifting into
purpose sometimes that even with. With
really people centered organizations
drifts into the business strategy as a
whole. And I feel incredibly lucky and
privileged to do so. Well, I'm with you on
(05:23):
that. I think where you get to focus your
entire time consciously on trying to have
a positive impact on others and help them
really fulfill their full potential. I
mean, that is a rewarding place to be, and
yet that is the job of most leaders, and
it just flies over their head a lot of the
(05:44):
time, because I'm in the job, I'm in the
do. I'm in the tasks. So I think we're in
a privileged position, right? I think so.
Absolutely. And I think, I mean, part of
that privilege is that you can't do this
kind of work without it changing you. So
I'm always on a developmental journey and,
you know, a new client comes through the
door and there is a new challenge in there
(06:04):
and there will be something new to notice
about myself in that mix. And what of that
is useful and what of it isn't? So it can
be quite sometimes feel quite self
indulgent, actually, because I'm
constantly in conversation with myself
about me and what it is that I'm bringing
to the party. We are a very interesting
person, Sammy. Why wouldn't we be
(06:26):
interested? Yeah, but no, yeah. I think it
is the job of all leaders, so I'm sure
we'll come into that. I'm absolutely
confident we will. As a fellow marketer, I
do love a link between a company name, a
way of life, and actually the job we're
trying to do. So the whole kind of
backpack meandering journey stuff, I love.
(06:47):
I absolutely love that. I know you're also
kind of, you're, I guess, mid book writing
at the moment. Yeah, I'm going to
optimistically say post mid. Wow, that's
good. That says progress. That's his
progress. I'm sort of three ish years into
the research and I'm pretty close now to
(07:08):
finishing the words that will summarise
that research. And it's a book. Trying to
answer the question, what is a grown up?
Oh my God. A question that I think a lot
of people hold and is akin to kind of
imposter syndrome and that space. But I
(07:29):
certainly noticed it, noticed myself not
feeling like a grown up yet at every age
that I've been and wondering, why is that?
And then it sort of dawned on me one day.
I was like, well, I don't actually know
what one is in order to know if I am one
or not. So I set out on this journey to
try and work out, so what is it? And then
we can work out how we're doing against
(07:50):
that. And as you can imagine, that too has
been a journey for me. Wow. I mean, that
is something I would love to hear about
when it gets there. And perhaps you can
answer some questions for all of us. I
want us to have a good old look today at
this leadership thing. I get to see, I
(08:12):
guess I'm very lucky. I get to see a whole
host of people at the moment around the
world who want to come onto podcasts and
want to talk about stuff. And let's be
honest, and actually, we've had this
conversation before. When we talk about
leadership, you could be rowing out the
same old stuff. It's a very busy space of
lots of people saying lots of common sense
(08:34):
things, but trying to find a different
perspective and cut through can be tough.
Right? Can be difficult. And that wasn't a
problem with you. When I saw your
information and then I saw a few of your
videos and bits and pieces. This whole
concept of leaderful I thought was really
(08:55):
interesting to look into. You know, I've
heard all the kind of leadership. Not
leadership things. Oh, nice. I like that
one. There was one for you. But I liked
the idea of leaderful. You know, it, to
me, it really played to my own purpose of,
like, trying to help people have more
fulfilling work lives. Your. Your thing
(09:16):
about trying to have people experience
more joy, I just felt that's a nice
connection that'd be worthwhile talking
about, but just help me get out of my rose
tinted world. When you think about leader
full, there must be some kind of problem
that you were trying to sort of, like,
view in leadership and take a different
position on to come up with something like
(09:38):
that. What was that thing? Yeah. Well, if
I. Let's go. Let's go to the word
leadership, if I may. Then I think I see
people in positions of leadership all the
time. And a bit like idea of being a grown
up. It is a suit of armor that we wear, or
(09:59):
it's the, you know, the thing on our. On
our business cards or our email signatures
or whatever. It's. It feels very much like
a thing. It is a named thing that can be
fairly surface level. Right. You are. You
are now, Andy, in a position of
leadership. Well done, you. Thank you very
much. Right, there we go. And now you can
(10:20):
wear that and you can, you know, and
everyone around you will see that. And I
think, actually, what we often find and
what I encounter a lot in organizations is
accidental leaders. Yeah. People who have
been promoted. You know, there's the old.
I don't like the Peter principle, you
know, the Peter principle. Being promoted
(10:43):
to your highest level of incompetence,
which I think is desperately unfair,
actually. But there's something that, you
know, they're cousins, if you like, in
this thinking, this idea that being an
accidental leader is to be promoted out of
the thing you were really great at. And
because of the way that we perceive
progression, particularly in the UK and
(11:04):
the western world, going up the hierarchy
or the ladder, and we can do a whole
nother podcast on that one, means I move
out of things that I'm good at, and I move
into people management. Yeah. So the
higher up the organization that I go, I
have more and more people to lead until I
get really close to the top and then they
slim down again. But very few people are
(11:30):
given the support or guidance that they
need as they move from being an individual
contributor, an expert, or whatever it
might be into a leader. There's this
assumption, a bit like being a grown up,
where we're kind of born with leadership
skills and you will now know how to go on
(11:50):
and prioritize and delegate and manage
time and have difficult conversations and
motivate and all of these things which in
themselves are, you know, that's a whole
personality right there, 100%. So I feel
like this idea of moving people into
leadership and then kind of dropping them
there and seeing what happens is really
(12:12):
unfair on both the individual who is doing
what we've all been trained to do and just
go up the ladder, the people that they are
leading. And of course, the organization
isn't getting the best performance from
those as well. So I started to think about
what would be more helpful in its framing.
And I like this idea of to be leaderful as
(12:36):
more of an adjective. Yeah. A bit like
delightful or beautiful. Right. Not many
people would say I am beautiful. Somebody
else describes you as that, or I am
delightful. As you know, that's a word
that other people use when they experience
you. I experience you, Andy, to be
delightful. I experience you to be
(12:58):
leaderful. So it's something that is
experienced by the people around you as
well as you, rather than it being this
thing that we put on. And so if we are
looking for something that is in the eye
of the beholder, let's say, well, then
we're going to have to go a little bit
deeper than job titles and business cards,
and we're going to have to go inward. And
(13:18):
so I feel like leaderful asks something
that is more action orientated of us
because we have to try to be. We have to
enact beautifulness. I love that position
of experience of somebody else's
experience of your. Of your leadership. I
really. I really. I really, really like
that because, well, we use the word impact
(13:40):
probably too many times at the start of
today's episode. And that perspective of
what did it feel like being led by you?
That's something I think everybody can
kind of really relate to. Right. I think
that is something we've all seen. Yeah.
Yeah. What does it feel like to work with
(14:00):
me? Like, it's such a. An open question
and a non threatening question. It's not,
how's my leadership? It's just, what is
this? What is this feeling like? How's
this relationship going for you? It's a
brave question for many people to ask,
right. I mean, because they might not want
to hear what comes, comes back. It might
be a surprising question for people to be
asked because how many people are asked
(14:22):
that, that question that sets up a whole
bunch of stuff because I'm with you 100%.
The transition from I'm good at what I do
to oh, right now I'm going to do people.
There is huge assumption that every wants
that every can do that. In my experience,
(14:44):
largely people are pretty unprepared for
what it's really like. The person you sat
next to one day is now the person you've
got to critique the work and say, hmm,
actually I need a little bit more from
you. Yeah, that's a tough transition for a
lot of people. It is. And I think there's
a whole mindset shift because you're
literally being asked to go on one day
(15:05):
from we will deem your value by your
productivity, but tomorrow if you could
come in and then we're going to deem your
value by the productivity of others. I
mean, I'm speaking fairly bluntly, but I
think that's a massive mindset shift to go
from I have to be the person to do things
to I have to be the person that gets
(15:25):
things done is huge. And one that I see a
lot of people battling with and
questioning their own value. Well, hold
on, if I am not busy all the time doing,
then why am I valuable? Why would you keep
me? Does that put me at risk? It really
starts to speak to these fears of kind of
conditional relationships in the
organization. And I see people all the
(15:48):
time trying to fit in their leadership
around the thing that they used to do. And
instead of going, actually, if I were to
upskill the ten people that I now lead,
they could do all of this. The
performance, the output, the impact,
etcetera, would be much higher. But we're
(16:09):
really stuck in this. My value is the
thing that I do. So is this, I mean, I
mentioned it in the intro, but is this why
you have this feeling position, if I'm
going to be grandiose about it, that you
feel that leadership's ill defined in a
lot of cases today? Yeah. Is this why?
Yeah, I think so. I think. I think it's
(16:32):
ill defined and it's. And it's. And no one
is attempting to define it in many
organizations. I think that's the other
thing. I kind of wouldn't mind if no one
had a clear, certain definition of it. If
we were all just talking about it all the
time because we would be developing our
own ones and we'd be more curious as to
what it might be. But actually, most
(16:52):
organisations are just putting people in
positions of leadership and then walking
away. You know, that's that done. And so
this lack of a greater definition just
sets people up for failure or for a
mediocre sense of what leadership could
be. William. And I think that's what I
wanted to find out from you in the work
(17:12):
that you've done and you continue to do,
what's the fallout of this poorly defined
role? Is that even right? And then the
support or lack of it that's given to
someone to make that transition? I mean, I
think we've all experienced that either in
(17:32):
ourselves, being put in a situation that
we just can't cope with or aren't sure
what to deliver. But also having
experienced, I guess, not great leadership
from others through either, perhaps no
fault of their own, perhaps they have been
dropped in the deep and with no experience
or guide, or they're just terrible at it.
(17:54):
And what have you seen as the fallout in a
lot of the work? Are there any sort of
commonalities that this ill definition is
bringing forth? Well, I think where
there's gaps, people will fill those gaps.
Right. So the lack of, in my view, a
useful, helpful definition of leadership
is then filled by often a sense that, oh,
(18:16):
as a leader, I need to have all the
answers. That's what being a leader is. Or
I need to set the direction alone. You
know, I need to be at the front of this.
And these are, you know, common tropes
that I'm sure most, most people listening
to this will have experienced or seen or,
you know, you've got the meme on LinkedIn
of that sort of leadership where this is a
(18:38):
dictatorship rather than an involvement.
And that's not necessarily. Well, I very
rarely actually meet people who do that
and want to do that, but they don't
realize there's another way. You know,
very often meet leaders who are telling
people what to do very clearly and how to
do it. But then you talk to them about
(18:59):
their private life and they're coaching
football teams on Saturday mornings or
they're, you know, they're in choirs and
stuff and. And they're doing things
outside of it where they haven't noticed
that they are. They can be leaders and so
they're much more collaborative. They just
haven't made that sort of connection into
the workplace. So an individual level, I
always think, I always. My first place to
(19:20):
go, I suppose is empathy for that
individual who is trying to be something
that they're not sure what that looks like
and what success would look like in that
role. And so a personal level, I see lots
of leaders burning out because they're
trying to be productive and do the people
management bit. I see them not having the
joy they had before. You know, I'd got
(19:42):
into this to be an engineer and now I'm
managing engineers well, that's the last
thing I ever want. You know, that's not,
that's not what lights me up or feels
purposeful and a sense of inadequacy
often. So because they haven't been
equipped or supported to be at their best,
they aren't at their best and then they
(20:03):
feel like that's their fault because there
is this kind of unwritten thing that, oh,
well, everyone can do leadership. You
don't need guidance to do leadership. So
then if you're sat there feeling like, oh,
well, I don't think I'm doing it very
well, of course, then you're going to feel
like a failure and you're going to feel
kind of impotent in your ability to change
that situation because no one else is
(20:24):
asking for leadership support. So I feel
like there's this kind of a really
negative effect on the individual that is
very, very sad. And then, of course,
there's the ripples out from that to the
teams that they are leading, or even just
one individual that they're leading, who
then, as you say, you know, we've, most of
us, or many people will have experienced
(20:46):
leaders that we don't deem to be very
good, but we're colluding with it. Because
we judge competence in different ways as
well, right? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.
Yeah. Really good point. We do. And so if
you're in an organisation that, that
massively values productivity and you see
someone trying to be a leader through
connection and relationship, well, then
(21:07):
you may be deciding that now they're in a
position of leadership, they're not doing
enough, right. So we're harsh on them in
one way, but we're colluding with the
whole thing because someone is moved into
a position of leadership and then we look
to them for all of the answers and. And we
are not also saying, hey, leadere, I can
help you with that. How is this going for
(21:28):
you now? How many times have people been
promoted around us? And instead of going
to them and saying, how's the new role
going? We're sort of just looking at them,
waiting for them to either succeed or
fail. We're not seeing them as another
human being who has also just had a
massive change in their career, who might
need to talk about that or explore that a
little. William. We seem to get caught in
that. It's always down to a two by two,
(21:50):
isn't it, when you talk about business?
But it always seems to come down to ease
and speed on a two by two. And I think one
of the biggest challenges is just like
you've sort of said stuff we're graded on
throughout our careers, early careers, on
how good we are with the amount of stuff
(22:11):
in general that we get through, like, oh,
you. He's a hard worker. Look how much
he's done. Yeah. And when you're thinking
about leadership and trying to grow and
encourage and inspire and motivate a team,
that takes time. And if we're still being
graded on getting a load of shit done
(22:32):
today, then, well, it's easier for me to
give you the answer and tell you what to
do rather than encourage you to think
about it or go and try and try something
and make a mistake. And what are you going
to learn from it? We seem to be sort of
like caught between this kind of short
term, medium term pressures all over
business, whether it's the numbers we're
going after today or the way we're trying
to grow people. Absolutely. It's almost.
(22:53):
You're almost undermining leadership from
the start if you don't have this
definition. But even the definition in an
organization could be very, very narrow.
Right? We want leaders like this. Yeah.
Yeah, it could be. And in some weird way,
if that works, then. Then that's cool,
too. It's something about setting an
expectation and being measured against
(23:14):
that expectation and being in constant
conversation about that. I think what we
could accidentally do, even in this
conversation, is put these failings with a
lowercase f, if you like, at the feet of
the organization or the institution. And
of course, the reality is organizations
don't exist. They are lots of people
(23:37):
organized in a certain pattern. And so as
soon as we start to say it's them or it's
they or whatever, we move away from them
being human, too, and us colluding in the
problem. So if an organisation hasn't well
defined leadership, then there's no reason
why anyone in that organisation can't
(23:57):
start to ask the question. But again, we
look up this ladder that we've created and
say, well, surely it should come from the
top. And that kind of undermines the idea
of. Of leadership and dispersed leadership
as well. Sorry, I'm going a bit off track.
No, you're not. I'm just getting excited.
No, because this is what happens in this.
(24:18):
I think what happens in good conversations
is you think about stuff and someone's
talking, you know, I'm listening to you
going, yeah, I mean, this could be simple
or incredibly complex. And that's a thing
my brain doesn't handle right very well
going backwards and forwards between those
sorts of things. But I, you know, there's
the added, I guess, complexity on that is
(24:40):
that we, we will encourage people to find
your own style of leadership. Well, okay,
that's great, but I'm not quite sure what
I'm trying to do. I'm just gonna be me.
Yeah, but doing. Doing what? And how
effective can that, can that be? So here's
a thing I'm not quite sure about, but I've
got to put my own stamp on it. I mean,
that's an interesting question for someone
(25:01):
to get their head around. Well, and it's
fixed. It says, this is your style of
leadership. You are now green. That's your
style of leadership. That's the box we're
going to put you in. And that's how we are
always going to see you, rather than
recognizing that both you as the leader
will have many different styles depending
on the day and what you have for
(25:22):
breakfast. Right. So there's that side of
it, and there is the other side. And this
goes back to some really, you know, this
is probably 60 years old now as a theory,
but something called situational
leadership, which is about thinking about
the individual that you're leading, but
also the thing that they are doing. So,
Andy, if, you know, for you and I were
working together, there might be one thing
(25:43):
that you do that you've been doing for ten
years and you're smashing it. Right. And
so the leadership you need from me around
that thing is very hands off. Yeah. But
there is a new thing that you've just
picked up that you've never done before.
And so the leadership you need from me
around that thing is much closer. You
know, I'm going to bring that proximity
and I'm going to coach a lot closer. And
while I think the world is more complex
(26:04):
than that, I still think that that is a
useful way of thinking, not about what's
my leadership style, but what is needed of
me in this moment. Yeah. And within that,
just to further complicate it, again,
there's, I guess, the nuances between
managing someone and then leading
somebody. Even in the situational
(26:26):
awareness stuff. Yeah. Even the different
hats that we wear. Absolutely. And I think
this is where, again, without clear
definition, without clear support, without
the right equipping of tools and
confidence to kind of get this stuff
right, we see more mistakes. Obviously the
wrong approach taken, or perhaps not the
(26:47):
most effective approach, as opposed to
wrong. Yeah. And I think. Yes, and I was
grinning when you said the difference
between management leadership, because I.
There's not many things that I'm super
firm about. Right. I hope she's going to
be good. I can tell you. But this is for.
I don't think you can manage people. That
is a really inconvenient truth. I'm sorry,
(27:07):
but I don't think you can manage people.
You can manage tasks, you can manage
projects, you can manage systems, you
can't manage people. You can lead people,
and you can encourage people to do what
needs to get done, and you can do that in
different ways. But unless you go right
into kind of coercive control style
(27:29):
situations, we can't be managed. And I
think that's one of the myths that has us
tangled up a lot of the time, is we think
that moving from being an individual
contributor where I do a thing, and I'm
going to stay with engineers for a moment.
Right. So I come in and I manage the
system around x now, you've given me a
load of people to manage. I can manage
(27:50):
them in the same way that I do a system,
which is that I tell them a brief, I tell
them how to do it. They go and do it. They
come back, I check, it works. We go around
the loop again. And that's not how we work
as humans. We are desperate constantly for
connection and relationship. And so I
think that's one of the things that would
be really helpful. You know, even if
organizations just sort of shifted, one
(28:11):
tiny thing would be to stop talking about
people management or the idea that we ever
can and start to lean into that mindset
that says, I can only ever create an
environment in which you might succeed. As
someone in my team, that's the realms of
my control. Listen, I think that's great
for me, that leadership thing is all about
that it create the environment where
(28:32):
people can flourish. If I look back at my
career normally through, well, from behind
the sofa, through sort of like fingers
across my eyes, that there were good
things I did, there were terrible things
that I did, and hopefully I learned from
them. But at the end of the day, that was
my realization was my job at this point is
(28:53):
to create the environment. It's not to do
the stuff it's not to pick up the sharpies
and design everything. It was to kind of
encourage and empower everybody else
around me to kind of like, go get it. And
there were lots of different things that
involved in building that environment. It
could have been shielding them. It could
have been supporting them, it could have
been challenging them. It could have been
breaking down barriers as it could have
(29:14):
been all sorts of things. That was my job.
I am very keen to move into thinking about
this leaderful piece and what it looks
like, perhaps. Where are some of the
things it's run into? But I do just want
to pick up on something that you mentioned
when I first met you and we had our first
chat because you said something that stuck
(29:36):
with me for a long time about the language
associated around leadership and it being
weaponized. And I've never, I'd never
thought of that concept before. Yeah, I
think there's a, there's a lot of judgment
that goes alongside it. And I, and I hope
that anyone listening to this isn't
hearing judgment in you and I, but it's
(29:58):
probably there under the skin. Right.
Because we have views and we have
perspectives. But I think a lot like
saying to someone, grow up. Man up. Grow
up, be a grown up. You know, what's your
shoe size? All those, all those things we
used to say. I feel like there's a similar
thing in leadership. And I hear it when
people say, but they're in a position of
(30:19):
leadership, they shouldn't be doing that.
Okay, well, did anybody help them know
that? Did anybody guide them on that? I
think there's certain words now that have
really negative connotations. So
accountability for me is a fabulous word,
but it is so often used as, like a cover
(30:42):
up for blame. Right. I want to say blame,
but I can't say blame. Passive aggressive.
It's passive aggressive. And it is
something I demand of you. I demand
leadership. I demand accountability. I
demand responsibility. All these words
that are themselves beautiful words when
you really sit and think about it. I want
to be accountable because that says that
(31:04):
I've got ownership over this thing and
I've got some autonomy around it and I'm
going to be proud of it and I'm going to.
Lovely stuff. But, but they've been used
in negative ways that has then made them
become very unhelpful. And I think where
you and I went with this conversation last
week was then this sense of, how can I ask
(31:25):
accountability of people without sounding
like, I want you to commit to something
that I'm going to hit over your head with
next week, you know, I want you to sign up
to something so that I can. I can hold it
against you. And that shared sense of
responsibility then, that we ask of is,
for me, is diminishing. Yeah. So we're
(31:46):
ending up with leaders who hold absolute
responsibility for the people that they.
That they work with rather than
recognizing that they, too are grown ups
or whatever word we want to use, are
adults navigating this world, and they can
be, and for the most part, want to be
responsible for themselves. But we've
(32:07):
ended up in this parent child environment
where leaders or managers or whatever we
want to call them are the parents, and
those that are reporting into them are the
children. Or I'd probably say the
adolescents. Yeah. You know, there is a
teenage thing there. It's ennui in there.
They won't do that. There's a real
(32:29):
passivity going on in that way that's
like, just tell me what you want and I'll
do it. Or I won't do it if I don't want to
do it and if I don't believe in it.
Because you're the leader and the buck
stops with you, and that's okay. And
leaders collude with that by saying,
here's what I want doing and here's how I
want it done. So we are both in
relationships that we don't really want to
be in. The parent doesn't really want to
(32:50):
be parenting all these grown ups around
them. Most adults don't really want to be
parented by someone at work. But what it
does do when that relationship is in place
is it counters this fear of I'm going to
be held to blame for something, I'm going
to be held accountable in a negative sense
for something. So, actually, if I'm just a
kid here, it's not really my fault. So if
(33:13):
we have that in the back of our minds,
that relationship piece, and we go back to
your, frankly, wonderful definition of
leaderful being, the experience somebody
else has of your leadership, and we think
about perhaps this human connection piece,
just the humanity of it all. And you have
(33:39):
correctly, outside of this episode,
cautioned me about my continued use of the
c word. And just for the benefit of the
tape, that's Covid, gang. That is not
anything else. I have said many times that
I wondered whether we have missed a trick
(33:59):
in the last few years. Because a few years
ago, when the c word was happening, there
seemed to me to be this bowel wave of
humanity that came back in to business. At
least that's what I felt. I felt people
were taking an interest in others. Good
leaders were connected and in touch with
their people. A greater level of
understanding seemed to get, and therefore
(34:20):
support from both sides seemed to be more
equitable, more natural. But I'm getting
the feeling like we're kind of moving away
from that stuff at the moment and almost
regressing. I think what happened was
these really beautiful things where
leaders took a lot of responsibility for
their people's wellbeing and organizations
(34:42):
took a lot of responsibility for their
people's wellbeing. And that was welcomed
and I think in many, many ways was exactly
what needed to happen. You know, we needed
organizations to just say, right, don't
come in tomorrow, work from here. Do that.
Here's a laptop. You know, whatever it
might be, we needed someone to take charge
of the situation. But what I am now
(35:04):
noticing all these years on is that
organizations are now looking to their
employees or their colleagues to take some
responsibility back. But we've got quite
comfortable, actually, with people saying,
no, no, no, I'll be responsible for your
well being. I'll be responsible for how
you're doing. And so there's this sort of
(35:24):
tension going on between colleagues
looking to organizations say, you're
supposed to look after me. You're supposed
to remove the barriers ahead of me and
just let me succeed. Which sounds like a
really great thing. Yeah, but they've got
no skin in the game. No, they're not
taking responsibility for their own
development, their own journey, and their
own well being. To say, you know,
(35:45):
actually, if I'm in a, if I'm in a shitty
relationship with my boss, it is as much
my responsibility as it is theirs. To say
this doesn't feel like it's going very
well. I think there feels like an
imbalance in the force right now. There
just feels like it's gone from one extreme
to the other in some cases. I am
(36:08):
absolutely, desperately not preaching this
is everywhere, because it isn't. But it
just feels that there's more of a common
thread here, that it's imbalanced. I think
your point about where's the
responsibility or accountability here. Is
it the organization? Is it the leader? Is
it the employee? Something's got to change
in the majority of organizations right now
to get back to a more even keel, where
(36:30):
people do feel seen, heard and valued, but
they also understand we've got stuff, we
got to do stuff. Yeah. And I think there's
a real fear in talking about that. So I
was away with some clients last year, and
we were having a drink after sort of
working together for a day. And the cooze
and I were chatting, and he sort of leant
(36:50):
in close like he was going to tell me a
secret or something. And he said, do you
think people should be a little more
resilient at times? And it was really
interesting because it looked like it was
coming from a place of fear. Like, I can't
ask for resilience of people. And funnily
enough, just last week I was in a
(37:12):
conversation with a client, and. And his
fear was around mental health. And I don't
for a second want to dilute or talk down
at all about people with genuine mental
health issues, but I do feel like there's
a lot of people who are starting to talk
about my mental health. And what they mean
is, I would like you to create an
(37:34):
environment around me in which everything
works the way that I want it to. And I
really want to bang on the drum of. I'm
not saying that everyone with mental
health is saying that, but, like, by any
means, no one thinks that, Sammy. No one
in. But it's a watch out, I think. And
even actually, me feeling the need to
repeat it is probably a really good
(37:55):
symptom of the fear that we have in
society right now of talking about mental
health and talking about when there is a
responsibility of the individual to
consider themselves as well and the
environment that they are in and the
choices they have to make. And so I think
part of being. Part of being a grown up,
actually, is knowing what choices do I
(38:17):
have available to me, and what might those
choices lead to? You know, what. What's
within my control and what's not. I think
that's such an important question. I love
the covey spheres of control, influence
and concern model because I think that is
so applicable not just in the way that he
(38:37):
designed it, but just in getting people to
understand where it's really effective in
moving themselves forward and sort of
starting to live their potential. And then
the two words, conscious and intentional,
you know, being aware of what you do and
having a reason for doing it. I think you
combine those three things in this concept
of leadership. I think that's not a bad
(38:59):
platform to kind of go forward with,
right? Yeah. And if we take that platform,
Sammy, and we come back to your lovely
positioning around leaderful, how do we
deal with some of the things that we've
talked about today? What do you think
leaderfulness looks like? What's the
(39:20):
picture in your mind, and how do we move
towards that? The picture in my so I don't
think we could have had this conversation
without a Venn diagram. We need to sneak a
ven in somewhere. And while this isn't
something I've drawn out, I think, and I
am terrible for knowing who to credit on
these things, but the original kind of me,
us in it diagram. So imagining a ven and
(39:46):
you have one of those circles, has it in
it, and it is there to represent the
context that we're in. So it might be the
task that we're working on, it might be
the environment we're in, but it is
essentially the things that humans are
interacting with as opposed to the human
element. Then there is the me part of
this. And I think this is where leaders
(40:06):
often fall down, is their attention is
outward far more than it is inward. What's
going on for me right now? What am I
bringing to this? If I walk into a meeting
and I'm frustrated with something
external, and I walk into a meeting and
I'm carrying that frustration, well, that,
of course, is going to have an impact on
what's going on around me. So really
(40:27):
tuning in with how you are, I think, is,
is a key component. And then if you look
at where those, then those circles start
to overlap, and how do I feel about this
thing that we're starting to do or we're
trying to do? How does the me interact
with the it? And then if we bring in that
third one of us, that starts to bring in
(40:49):
the relational side of this. You know,
this isn't individualistic. We cannot lead
on our own. We can't sit in a white room
unimpacted by the world around us and be
leaders. We are in relationship
constantly. So looking inward to me,
understanding myself, where I'm at, my
relationship with the thing that it is
we're working on, and my relationship with
(41:12):
the team around me, the people that I'm
interacting with, that might be one
person, that could be a thousand people.
But I think when people are truly
leaderful, they are moving seamlessly
between those three circles and giving
attention, really conscious and deliberate
attention to all of those spaces, but
(41:32):
particularly the human ones. If you like,
the it comes later. The it come. The it
actually may come from the US much more
than it does for me. I just might need to
know the vision around it. And actually
giving my attention to the relationships
that I'm in is, is the most key thing
here. So in terms of how you do that, I
mean, I think the first thing is to be
really open and curious. And if that were
(41:55):
the only thing I think that would be still
hugely impactful in most. Most people and
most organizations. Yeah. Taking a genuine
interest in the people that you're working
with. Absolutely. And in myself, you know,
what's really going on for me right now?
Why do I feel this way about this person
or this thing or this timeline or whatever
it might be? Being really curious about
(42:17):
the assumptions that I make, being really
curious about the tensions. I think we
often, when we notice a tension in
something, you know, there's two opposing
views, we convince ourselves that we have
to decide upon one of them. But actually,
sometimes there are tensions, and both are
right. You just have to notice them and be
(42:37):
curious about them. So I really feel like
if leaders could stay in discovery more,
be curious more about the me, the us, and
the it, that would go a huge way to
shifting the. The impact or the experience
that others have of us if that were the
starting point. Wow. It's so much more
(42:58):
than a starting point, isn't it? Yeah,
it's so much more. I suppose I say that's
the starting point because what comes
after probably looks. I'm staring at,
like, a multicolored blanket here. It's
probably a rainbow, right? Yeah. You know,
that starting point will kick off
different things for all different people.
Curiosity may make one leader actually
(43:18):
realize their fallibility and recognize
that they have the experts around them,
and they are leading a group of experts so
that the experts can do the great thing.
They don't have to do it. I think that's
one of the most important things for
leaders to get comfy with. Right. And I
know another podcast episode about
imposter syndrome, we'll get in the way of
all that kind of stuff. But I think this
(43:39):
definitely comes back to thinking more
consciously about the impact of your
leadership, which is where the leaderful
thing really is beautiful in its
phraseology. I really, really, really like
that. And then I think just bringing that
kind of human, the humanity into that
impact as a conscious thing, and without
(44:01):
wanting to sound all happy clappy, but
that. We love a bit of woo woo. Well, you
know what? I'm on board the woo woo train
when it comes to this stuff, right?
Because it works. And I think this is what
gets conflated in a lot of people's minds,
is when they. They go from being a
colleague to being, all of a sudden
they're a. They're a leader. I've got a
(44:21):
different badge. I've got a different
thing to do. No, it's not a different
thing. You're just looking at it from a
different perspective. You've still got to
bring the human to get the best out of
somebody else. Like you said, I don't know
too many adults who like being told how to
behave or what to do, you've got to create
an environment where they want to do the
things that need to happen. And that's a
(44:43):
skill. Yeah, absolutely. I cannot believe
we're at this point already, but we're at
the sticky notes point of this podcast,
which is an attempt to drill down into
three really simple takeaways from today
that you could stick on. Three little post
it notes. Samuel. Yeah, so when we think
(45:05):
about this wonderful, leaderful position,
if someone wants to start the journey and
begin living a more leaderful life, what
would you put on three sticky notes today?
So I really honed in on the how do you
write it on a post it, the sticky note.
And I think the first one is talk to
(45:25):
yourself about yourself more. Love that.
So to find time, even just a heartbeat,
just before I say something, just before I
open a door, just before whatever, and go,
oh, what's going on for me right now? Talk
to yourself about yourself more, I think
is a key component, and all the research
supports that in terms of great leaders,
(45:45):
it's a key quality, is that self
regulation, self awareness? I think the
second one is noticing the connections. We
coexist. We have to, and we want to, you
know, we've evolved to want to. So notice
those connections and notice the gap
(46:06):
between us as well. You know, the space
between you and I is our relationship.
Yeah. And let's give it attention. Let's
not just look at me and look at you. Let's
give attention to that connection, that
space between us. And the third, you won't
be surprised to hear, is probably
curiosity is king, as far as I'm
concerned. I used to have a boss who I
love dearly, and he used to say, cash is
(46:26):
king. And I think I've evolved that
slightly, that curiosity is king.
Actually, we need to spend much longer in
discovery. We need to spend much longer
wondering about things and wondering about
them together. And I think that's a real
key for successful leadership, is to come
to your team with questions, not answers.
(46:50):
I think they are three incredibly
practical, yet very humanistic sticky
notes that I tell you what, if we all did
a bit more of those, I think the world at
work would be an easier place to stay.
Sammy, thank you so much for coming into
sticky studios today and just sharing your
(47:11):
really honest thoughts about what
leadership can be, not necessarily what it
is really love listening to you. Thank
you. And thank you for rolling with me on
that as well. We went on a little journey
together there. I've loved our
conversation. I'm very grateful for you
coming and doing that before I let you go.
If people want to find out more about you,
(47:31):
if they want to join the queue to get the
book when it eventually, where can people
find out more? Sammy? Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I am a LinkedIn addict, self
confessed, so you can find me on LinkedIn,
Sammy, Burt and I'll pop up there and then
my company website, which then has a page
on it about the book, is yourbackpack dot
(47:53):
co dot UK. So yourbackpack dot co dot UK
and you'll see a page on there called the
grown up book where you can register for
updates. Brilliant. Well, we'll make sure
all of that goes in the show notes and so
people can find out all the stuff and join
that queue. Sammy, thanks so much, mate,
for coming. And I absolutely loved our
conversation and I hope it's not our last.
(48:13):
Thank you. Me too. Cheers, Andy. Take
care. Take care. Okay, everyone, that was
Sammy Burt, and if you'd like to find out
a bit more about Sammy or any of the
things we've talked about today, please
check out the show notes. So that
concludes today's episode. I hope you've
enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard
(48:36):
something maybe that will help you become
a sticky, more successful business from
the inside going forwards. If you have,
please like, comment and subscribe. It
really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've
been listening to the sticky from the
inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening
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