June 19, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever wondered why workplace conflict often persists despite numerous policies and rules? Maria Arpa, an expert in compassionate communication, shares how embracing heart-centred, human-focused dialogue can transform workplace relationships, enhance trust, and boost productivity. Discover how intentional use of compassion can revolutionise your leadership impact and help you curate a better, more effective workplace culture. This stuff ain't fluffy! It's the real deal.
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Key Takeaways- Conflict Starts With "I Matter": Conflict arises when people feel undervalued. Compassionate communication focuses on recognising individual worth.
- Dialogue Beats Debate: Dialogue isn't about winning arguments but about understanding. Replacing debates with dialogues fosters genuine understanding.
- Hierarchies Can Be Harmful: Rigid power structures often exacerbate conflict. Compassionate leadership offers a more effective and humane alternative.
- Compassion Is Practical, Not Fluffy: Effective, compassionate communication involves robust boundaries and practical techniques that positively affect organisational performance.
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
0:00:10 – Introduction: Tackling Workplace Conflict with Compassion 0:05:16 – From London's Streets to Corporate Suites: Maria’s Journey 0:09:29 – Why Do People Really Argue? Three Core Conflict Messages 0:14:05 – Is Compassionate Communication Too Soft for Business? 0:17:36 – Relationships and Trust: The Foundation of Productive Workplaces 0:27:40 – Dialogue vs Debate: Unpacking Maria’s Dialogue Road Map 0:34:07 – Why Companies Struggle with Compassionate Leadership 0:40:02 – The Holistic Approach: Blending Energy and Practical Communication 0:42:24 – Sticky Notes: Advice for Compassionate Communication 0:44:11 – Closing Thoughts & Where to Find Maria
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Maria Arpa on LinkedIn here Listen to Maria's All Things Conflict Podcast here Find the Peaceful Solutions website here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition-smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, have you ever experienced some kind of workplace conflict?
I expect most of us have at one time or another.
Now that kind of stuff can drain energy, stifle creativity and seriously damage your company's culture, let alone cause you untold amounts of worry, pain, stress and whilst all that's going on, total suppression of your performance too.
(01:39):
Yet many businesses still approach conflict resolution with outdated top down methods that can often make things worse not better and what if the answer wasn't stricter policies or stronger discipline but what if compassion, understanding and genuine human dialogue could transform your workplace into one where people thrive.
(02:04):
Obvious, common sense even, maybe, but that's not everyone's lived experience and so today I am delighted to be joined by Maria Arpa, an expert in workplace dynamics, compassionate communication and conflict resolution.
Maria's journey to me is nothing short of extraordinary, taking her from mediating neighborhood and gang disputes in London's toughest streets to becoming an influential advisor for senior executives and global companies today.
(02:37):
Her innovative dialogue roadmap combines heart-centered communication with practical strategies that not only resolve conflict but actively build healthier relationships at the same time.
Now Maria's holistic pragmatic approach has been embraced by organizations ranging from renowned restaurant chains to diverse global communities and her methods aren't just about reducing suffering, they're about enhancing productivity, retaining talent and creating environments where people feel genuinely valued and heard.
(03:13):
So if you've ever wondered if or how compassion could become one of your strongest leadership strategies, stick around.
This conversation could radically reshape how you and your organization approach difficult conversations and challenging dynamics.
Maria, welcome to the show.
(03:33):
Thank you, wow, what an introduction, thank you.
I feel so deeply honoured and then I kept looking over my shoulder and go, is he talking about me?
Of course I'm talking about you, you come with one hell of a reputation for this and I am really interested in hearing about your journey and the dialogue roadmap, but before we kind of dive headlong into that, I've tried in my own way to give an introduction to you and what you do and what you focus on, but you have a go.
(04:06):
Tell us about you, what are you up to at the moment?
Oh wow, well, so a lot of my work now is I think in three areas, so one is prisons and I'll go back into that in a minute.
The other is workplaces, I'm really interested in workplaces and how things are developing and shaping and the kinds of changes and responses that we need that are different to the responses that we perhaps needed 10 years ago.
(04:41):
And I also run a one-year training for people that want to do this work.
I do my own podcast, but you know, perhaps you'll let me give that a plug later on.
No question, no question, we'll get into all of that, no problem.
I'm fascinated by this journey from gangland to corporate, which I don't know, may feel the same at different times depending who you're dealing with, but just take me through that.
(05:09):
How have you come from that sort of environment to where you work today?
What's happened?
So if I go right back, you know, those of you that kind of recognise my accent will know, whilst when I'm in America, they love my accent, it's so wonderful to be here.
(05:29):
It's always kind of funny, because I don't want to say like, when I'm in the UK, I'm treated like I'm an idiot with this accent.
So, you know, it's very working class, it's an obsolete accent now, because this accent doesn't exist, it's kind of evolved into something else.
But it's a very working class, slum driven London, you know, my home was declared unfit for human habitation, you know, that sort of beginnings.
(06:00):
And then into entrepreneurship, you know, that was my way out of the ghetto.
And I have a background in advertising and marketing.
And then what happened was, I started to feel like I was in the spiritual desert.
It was lovely, I had all the trappings, I worked for really good clients, blue chip clients, and I had all the trappings on the outside, but a desert on the inside.
(06:28):
And they say that when the student is ready, the teacher appears.
And that in one year, I discovered Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication, I became a volunteer mediator in neighbour disputes, in housing estates, and I became a Reiki master, I've learned Reiki, which is energy work.
(06:57):
Yeah, I'm familiar with Reiki.
It was a very powerful cocktail that, all three in one go.
And I suddenly kind of had an enlightened path, and I could see a way forward.
And I felt that I could use my creativity that I'd previously been using in advertising and marketing, could use it to be of service.
(07:20):
So that was a journey.
And then I moved into an area, and there was much more gang activity.
I mean, who'd have thought a person with my accent could be accused of gentrification?
You know, you buy a bigger house than you would get where, you know, because you move to a cheaper area.
(07:42):
And, and I didn't want to be part of the problem.
I wanted to be part of the solution.
So I literally did, a seven year old girl was fatally shot near where I live, round the corner from where I live, made headline news.
I was bringing up teenagers, the gang activity was dangerous.
(08:06):
And after that shooting, and when the police decided to arrest somebody, they created a vacuum in the gang activity, which meant that there were drive-by shootings every day, like literally, and it was now spreading out of the gang activity, you know, it wasn't just between themselves.
(08:27):
And, you know, would I do it again?
Probably not.
But, you know, at the time, I went out on the streets and just started, and, you know, it's not as good as it sounds, because most people think you're mental and cross the road, but I just wanted to find out what was going on.
Well, I don't, I don't find you mental, I find you incredibly inspiring, because just for that very point, with that stuff going on, I mean, you tell me, I, the ghettos of grey Surrey is about as deep as I've got, you know, wherever I say I'm from Surrey, they go, oh, how posh, and I go, well, not where I came from, but, you know, whatever, nothing compared to what you're talking about, right?
(09:05):
But I would imagine people may be split into two categories at that point.
There are people who think, no, this is not for me, I want out, I want safety.
And yet you crossed the street, you went towards it, you sound like compelled by curiosity, what is going on?
What is driving it?
(09:25):
Can you just, explain that a little bit?
Yeah, so having been a volunteer in neighbour disputes, you know, I could understand there were certain things I was understanding about, you know, or trying to understand.
And the question that I was asking myself that sort of also related to my own childhood and the brutality of living in the slums was why do people fight?
(09:50):
Because there are no winners.
Yeah.
You could win the argument, but there really are no winners.
It's a pointless exercise.
But what I started to see was all arguments are the same.
They really are underneath at the very heart of it.
They're all the same.
(10:10):
What's different is how many rocks or weapons or the size of the weapons and resources I have to throw at somebody else.
What makes them the same?
Maria, in your experience today, why do you say they are the same?
What is it?
So I could give this to you very easily.
There are three conflict messages.
(10:31):
And you can look at this at the micro and the macro level.
So the first conflict message is you change to suit me.
No, you change to suit me.
No, you change to suit me.
Now, if you put a power imbalance in that, then you really got something very toxic.
(10:51):
Yeah.
Right.
Then the other message is a competition to the bottom, which is I'm worse off than you.
No, you're much worse.
No, I'm much more worse off than you.
Now, you've no idea how badly off I am.
I see that a lot in couple relationships.
(11:12):
Right.
And it's competing for an empty pot of empathy.
But the true conflict message, when you can get beyond that, the true conflict message is I need to know I matter.
Okay.
I need to know I matter.
And again, when you look at workplaces and you put power imbalances or gangs or anywhere where there's hierarchical structures and people with more resources and weapons and others, you're in a very toxic place.
(11:44):
So we need, you know, the things that we've been using, you know, we can alleviate the pain and the suffering and we can use enforcement.
But, you know, when I look back over 30 years, very little has changed in our ability to to work through conflict and come out the other side.
(12:07):
Very little has changed with the mainstream technologies and methodologies.
Yeah.
And I guess then this is why you may say it is or it isn't.
But if we've got these kind of three fundamental, I guess, essences of argument and conflict, the similarities between the street gangs that you've dealt with and now the corporate boardrooms that you kind of help facilitate, it's the same thing going on, right?
(12:36):
It's pretty much the same thing.
It's just levels of politeness.
Less weapons.
Because you can still be very polite and be toxic and an enforcer and using your authority or power over others.
You can do that very politely.
(12:59):
And and the difference being the willingness to cross the line into physical violence or not.
Yeah.
Less of that in the boardroom.
Yeah, obviously.
Yeah, clearly.
Maybe.
So your message, or one of your messages, is all about compassionate communication.
(13:19):
And it's a topic, not exactly what we talk about all the time, but we do talk a lot about human skills, empathy, compassion, these sorts of things.
I think they're massively important in today's workplace.
I think the society that we live in today demands it and businesses are catching up slowly.
But I sometimes get accused of being a bit of a fluff monster with all this sort of stuff.
(13:41):
You know, come on, Andy, business is about tough stuff.
And I don't think any of this human skills, as I would call it, is anything other than tough.
I think this is some of the toughest stuff we do.
But is compassionate work entirely practical, Maria, from your perspective, or is it in danger of crossing the fluff zone?
(14:02):
What would you say to that?
Well, you know, I can only speak for the work that I do.
And I know that my work is rigorous.
Yeah.
It holds boundaries.
It helps everybody to find a path.
Because, you see, compassion is not about being nice.
It has nothing to do with being nice.
(14:25):
In fact, I would say I'm not a very nice person.
But, you know, I'll give you the shirt off my back if there's a need.
It's about holding the contracts that we make and where our contracts either were never made properly or are no longer fit for purpose.
It's about redefining them, understanding that at the end of the day, we're all human.
(14:50):
At the end of the day, you go to the toilet, I go to the toilet.
I eat, you eat.
We go to the bathroom.
There are all certain fundamental bits of humanity.
And we can't just go, no, I have a job title and you don't have that job title.
Even with all of that, there's a humanity.
(15:11):
So, there's something I would like to put in here to make sure that people really get that the work is robust.
May I just take a minute to do that?
Oh, please.
I would love you to do that.
So, I understand that, you know, like you have disciplinary and grievances and policies and all of this stuff, right?
(15:31):
So, how I come at this is when you put a group of people together, and let's call that a workplace, right?
It could be a gang, could be a family, could be anything, right?
But a group of people come together.
And no organisation is ever going to allow one person or one group of people to put Spanner in the works.
(15:54):
It's not.
Because the cost of that to everyone, to the whole community could be greater than the survival of the organisation, okay?
So, I don't have a problem with that.
I have a problem with how, how we do it, okay?
(16:14):
We can come on to that.
So, I get that.
And we need to be able to communicate that to people, right?
We need to be able to communicate.
We're probably not going to let you stick a Spanner in the works and bring the whole thing to a standstill because your individual needs are not being met, okay?
However, to get to that place, you don't get to that place by having rules and enforcement.
(16:42):
Because all rules and enforcement will do is send people into dark corners where they'll be discussing how to undermine a system that doesn't care about them in other ways that you won't see until it's too late.
Absolutely.
Because I think sometimes it's the inability for ill-equipped managers or leaders to deal with people who've all got Spanners that they could chuck into the works.
(17:12):
And their inability to deal with those does cause slow-moving toxic problems within businesses.
As you said, eventually it's too late to do something about it.
So, you've got this, no chance we'll let someone absolutely ruin my business through their behaviour.
But little versions of that are going on all the time.
And our inability to deal with it could cause major problems, for sure.
(17:36):
So, if I start with that, then the next thing is, am I going to be able to run this business on my own with no other people?
Should I just go live alone in a cave, set myself up and run?
No, probably not.
Probably for any business to scale or operate, it's going to require relationships.
(17:58):
And what do I want from those relationships?
From those relationships, I need trust, need mutuality, need cooperation, contribution, honesty, care, diligence.
I mean, the stuff we need from those relationships doesn't come automatically.
(18:23):
There are skills we have to learn.
I can't demand trust and loyalty from you.
I can't demand care and diligence from you.
We can write it in a contract and then I can go after you and performance manage you.
And we can do all of those things.
(18:43):
But in the end, what that will do to me as a leader is it will leave me trusting even less.
It will leave me with what I had, you know, that spiritual desert I talked about.
So I want to run a business.
I want to make money.
I'll come on to some principles about that in a minute.
(19:06):
I want to put something wonderful out in the world or be of service or produce a product that, you know, that people want.
But I also need to care for my own humanity.
I need to sleep at night.
I need to eat good food.
I need to take care of myself because I'm one person when I'm fully resourced and I'm a completely different person when I'm not resourced.
(19:36):
So compassionate communication isn't top down.
And that's so I think that that's part of the thinking that needs to change is it isn't.
I'm going to, as a leader, learn to be compassionate to others.
It's compassion is a way of life.
It's a way of life that says, why are we doing this?
(20:00):
Why are we here now?
I mean, look, if you run a business, a for profit business, right, it must make a profit.
There's no other way is no then run a nonprofit or run a cooperative.
Right.
It must make a profit if it's a for profit business.
Now, what you do with that profit, how you distribute that profit or reinvest it.
(20:27):
And if you just want to buy yourself 10 Lamborghinis, then expect people are going to be pissed off with you.
All right.
If you how you use that profit determines how your workforce will see you.
And will also determine some of their willingness to go the extra mile.
(20:49):
So there are so you know, my work isn't I teach you some compassionate communication, you use it on people, and then you get a result.
It's, there's a different paradigm that I'm asking people to step into, that will bring riches that are often unquantifiable.
(21:12):
So I wonder, you know, how do you receive that?
Me, I think it's just wonderful.
One of the reasons I set this podcast up was this ridiculous in my head, because people will shout at me for saying things like, but ridiculous notion that you can't have a humanity based business and make it profitable.
And I just don't believe that.
(21:35):
I don't believe it.
I think we're so conditioned to the top down, beat the drum, do as you're told, and make me money, sort of motif in old business, there's still too much.
I think there's too much that rhetoric still around today.
I'd rather have the will of the people around me.
And that sort of collegiate in it together spirit.
(21:57):
And I don't care if anybody's listening to this game.
Oh, God, there he goes again.
That's why that's why thriving, that's an environment I want to be part of.
That's an environment I would feel happy leading, managing, working in.
Because I think if you're inside an organization like that, we've got that commonality of spirit, that curiosity of understanding.
(22:18):
And I think many times you spend so much time at work, that's the stuff that gives you a bit more meaning when you come home at the end of the day.
It is not such an abrupt kind of work and home.
It feels a bit more like you, it feels a bit more centered.
And why that sort of organization can't be successful profitably, and distribute it equally across its workers.
(22:42):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I love it.
Personally, Maria.
I mean, that's why I've got you on the show.
Because I want other people I love.
I love listening to people who challenge my view.
But I'll be honest, I get a lot of validation from hearing people who are making much more of a success of this than me, come on into this show and start talking about all the great things that they're doing.
(23:05):
And maybe if one or two more listeners hear from other people, they'll start to believe and change and do things.
And we'll all be in a better place as a result.
Is that too long a winded answer for you?
Oh, no, I mean, you know, this is music to my ears.
And, you know, we could be each other's mutual admiration.
We could have just started that today.
(23:27):
But what I wanted to respond to you was, you know, the idea that there are people that say you can't make money and have a humanity based, whatever.
And I like to give one of my robust answers to that, you know, and I love where you're coming from.
And clearly, that's my agenda, too.
But if I want to get really robust and rough about it, the truth is, you're not going to be able to run a business that's not humanity based, because we raised a generation, we just raised a couple of generations where we gave them access to all the psychological phrases.
(24:04):
We told them to look at psychology.
We told them to look at their neurodiversity.
We told them that they're allowed to be human.
We gave them lots of rights.
And I'm not saying we should or we shouldn't.
I don't have an opinion about this.
I'm just saying I'm trying to state a world as I see it.
It's a reality.
It's a reality.
(24:25):
It's a reality.
We said, oh, you've got rights.
There was a period where there was no parent who hadn't heard their child say, I've got rights.
So we gave a lot of rights out.
We gave them access to psychological terms.
I mean, the number of people that were walking, you know, when I was running the practice and say, oh, you know, I looked on the internet and it turns out my ex-husband or my ex-wife is a psychopath or whatever, you know, we handed out all these notes because they met all the criteria on the definition on Google, you know.
(24:59):
And so we've handed all this out to people.
You've got rights.
You're allowed to be different.
We can actually name that for you.
We put people through COVID restrictions where their freedoms were taken away and people didn't like that very much.
And then we said, oh, but actually the powers that be didn't follow any of those rules.
(25:24):
They did something different.
So we've taken a whole generation and we've given them a completely different perspective, a different perspective to the one I was given.
And now we're putting them in workplaces and they are saying, I'm not going to be treated like this.
Do I want to work for you?
(25:45):
I don't even know that I want a full-time job.
I don't even know that that's a destination for me.
And certainly if I do get it, you're going to have to be grateful that I'm coming to work for you.
And secondly, what is work in the first place?
Nobody taught me what work is.
And so I'm not sure I like the way that this is unfolding, the strategies, because it's just creating more them and us, right?
(26:14):
It's feeding into that.
But I can see that actually there's an expansion and a development and a shift that my question is, how painful do you want this to be if you want to run a successful business?
(26:36):
Yeah, we can't have done all this stuff in the background and then moan that they use that platform.
And they're using it and it's kind of like, oh my God, I never expected the change to come from this doorway.
And it's interesting to step back and watch and understand.
(27:02):
And leaders who can kind of at least come through the doorway into this world the way I'm seeing it, have got a better chance of doing something less painfully.
Which I think leads us nicely on to your dialogue roadmap maybe, in that if we're going to have these situations, going to have these conversations, what does that practical compassion look like in reality, in action?
(27:35):
So can you unpack that map for us?
Yeah.
So the origins of it are that as part of my search for why do people fight, I saw that a lot of it was trained into us, indoctrinated into us, because there's communicating with each other using words.
(28:01):
There are other ways of communicating, but we're not going to cover that today.
But communicating using words are conversations.
Now, there are many different types of conversation.
And what I learned is the model of conversation that we have been indoctrinated with is debate.
(28:22):
It's the debate model of conversation, because we place such value on academia, the military, science, the law, and those disciplines all use debate.
And the purpose of a debate is to have one argument prevail over all others.
(28:44):
Now, within certain contexts, that's fine.
But when that filters down into the way we entertain ourselves, watching films, and, you know, the way scripts are written.
And when we bring that into our families, and when we put it in the classroom, and in the classroom, actually, in our education system, we have the worst form of that because it's debate plus enforcement.
(29:11):
And that's the most toxic form of communication.
So what I was looking for, well, what's the alternative?
And dialogue is an alternative.
Yet, it's never presented, it's never talked, it's certainly not in our mainstream.
I started to see that in a dialogue, what we accept is that there isn't an argument to be won, that all the people involved and impacted have a piece of the answer.
(29:45):
They don't have it all, but we all have a piece of the answer.
And that's a very different way of talking to each other.
So then I started to look for how do you have a dialogue?
And how do you have a dialogue when everything you've ever learned is a debate?
How do you unlearn debate and learn dialogue?
And there wasn't any kind of manual for it.
(30:07):
So my work has been creating the very practical steps of how to have a dialogue.
A debate comes from the head.
A debate demands rational, logical thinking to put forward arguments to defeat the other.
It's a very strategic, militaristic way of being in the world.
(30:32):
A dialogue comes from a heart-based communication.
It has a very different vibration around it.
In fact, it says there may be differences that we need to discover or uncover, or tensions that need attending to, and we will attend to these because the cost of not attending it is too great.
(30:57):
But how do we look after each other while we fathom this out?
You're not an enemy or an adversary because we disagree.
So the dialogue roadmap has a lot of understanding about the state that I'm in.
Am I in the state of listening?
(31:18):
So you can do these active listening skills, and I do have techniques to get you there.
But it really is, am I in a state to receive?
So there's a place of receiving.
Then there's a place of human connection.
That's the empathy.
Like now we need to meet in our humanity.
(31:40):
And then maybe I want to give you a gift in the form of feedback.
And now I've received.
Now we can meet as humans.
I can understand this.
I can't walk in your shoes, but I can try and accept this is where we are.
Whether we like it or not, this is the raw material we have between us right now.
(32:06):
And now we need to share some gifts.
So and that comes as feedback, not criticism.
I mean, the word feedback in the business is terrible.
People hate because all it means is an excuse to tell people how rubbish they are.
Right.
But I'm talking about giving each other gifts and some gifts.
(32:26):
Some gifts are not as nice as others.
Some gifts are really useful and some gifts are not so useful.
And then how do we how are willingness to still be in relationship intact?
And there are, you know, there are techniques I use in the dialogue roadmap to help people understand the state.
(32:56):
Is that a sort of good enough answer?
Does that?
Oh, yeah.
I'm I'm just saying with my mind kind of ticking over about all of these.
I mean, I'm I'm I'm looking, listening to your roadmap, but I'm thinking of my own models that I would use when it comes to communication.
I think the feedback thing is is fascinating because it's a bit like performance management.
(33:18):
Most people don't look at it through one eye, the negative, naughty, you've done something wrong or you're not performing.
But the other side of the coin is there, too.
You know, it's like, hey, that was brilliant.
Keep doing more of that.
And often we miss that reinforcement piece, the validation piece, which is actually what a lot of people crave and need to push them on to the next level.
(33:39):
So I'm I'm totally I'm totally bought in to the framework.
But do you get when you're in businesses?
Are they hiring because they get it, but they don't know what to do?
Or are they hiring you because they realize, oh, we've got problems?
And actually, it's because of me, because I'm all hierarchical and I've got emotional issues and la la la help us out.
(34:02):
Because you must come up against cynics to this all the time.
Oh, completely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are sort of two types of businesses, you know, for this work, you know, one is where they've run into problems.
And, you know, they just want a quick fix.
Yeah.
You know, they want to hire me an external mediator, they go around and look for the best price, bring someone in and hope they can put fire out and get everyone back to work as quick as possible.
(34:30):
You know, sometimes that's needed.
But I will often say, you know, I'll do that to showcase what's possible, but on the basis that we can get a longer relationship.
And then there are businesses that truly understand this.
And, you know, they realize that this is not this is not like an add on.
(34:50):
It's a way of, you know, people talk about culture now, don't know, it's all about people and culture.
And the culture will override anything and culture needs to shift.
And it's a slow process of building people's confidence in something new and different.
(35:12):
But you see, you go through that with this work, what you do.
And I want to be really clear.
Yeah, please.
This trust building to get to the point where you can start using shorthand with each other.
I mean, Jesus Christ, I am probably the most impatient person and everyone who knows me will know that I have very little patience.
(35:33):
So I love this work because it's taught me that I get to what I want quicker.
I get to the goal quicker using these once everyone's bought in.
So.
And more sustainably, Maria, right?
More sustainably, once you do this stuff, you got to keep going around the blinking loop the whole time.
Absolutely.
I haven't got, I can't, you know.
(35:56):
So, so, you know, this work's been really good for me because I'm not traditionally not a patient person.
And most things drive me mental, you know.
Right.
So, so this work's been very good for me and I want to share that with people.
You know, I want people to have that.
So, so you go through this and people learn and join and then you have a trust basis, a sustainable trust basis from which I can use shorthand.
(36:29):
I can say, oh, for ***** sake, do we have to go around that again?
And nobody's taking me to tribunal over it because we all, we got the love where you know, that I'll give you the shirt off my back if it came to it.
That's the point.
We're not dancing around, you know, my issue, who can tell the truth in any workplace?
(36:52):
Yeah.
We talk about trust a lot on this podcast and yet not enough because it's the foundation for everything.
And if you want performance and you want sustainable results, you only got to look at something like Lencioni's pyramid, five dysfunctions of a team.
It's there in black and white that the difference between high performing teams and those also rans is a constant foundation of trust and not something you tick once and go, right, we've done trust.
(37:23):
Let's move on.
It's a work in progress for forever.
But they realise having that trust means you can have the sort of conversations you've just talked about.
You can show some vulnerability.
I don't get this.
I don't like this.
I don't want this.
I'm not sure about it.
I can't do it all on my own.
Help me.
And challenge stuff through.
And then if you can challenge stuff through, then we'll commit to stuff, we'll take accountability, and then the results will be there.
(37:47):
But they'll be there in the long term, not this kind of like yin and yang, short termism stuff.
But I don't know, in your experience, why do you think we've still got, I'm guessing, a high proportion of organisations who still fail at this stuff, who still rely on authority and hierarchy to sort conflict, which to me only fans the flames a lot, or at least, you know, pisses people off and they leave.
(38:14):
Well, I mean, you know, we could do I could write a thesis on this.
I've got to get you back.
We haven't had enough time.
It's ridiculous.
If I have to give you a really short answer.
So this hierarchical system I name, it's not my words, it came from a theologian called Walter Wink, domination culture.
(38:34):
And we have been programmed and indoctrinated with domination culture since birth in our mainstream society.
And it's in the DNA.
It's actually in the DNA, what I've discovered, it's in the DNA.
Now, I've also discovered that empathy can change the DNA, but it's a process.
(38:55):
And so we are so attached to this, that it's hard to imagine another way.
It's hard to take the leap into another way, because then you're going to be in uncertainty.
And there is a period of uncertainty.
(39:16):
But what I've learned in my one year training is how to carry people through that uncertainty, to see the gifts that this really brings.
We have had nothing like enough time to get into this.
I'm going to have to get you back at some stage to have another chat, Maria.
And that what a chore that will be.
I will love that.
(39:37):
I do want to have a quick chat with you there before you go, around how you've been integrating some of your more holistic practices.
And because you mentioned at the top about your energy work and your Reiki work.
And I've just sort of said you got sceptics talking about compassionate conversation and communication.
My God, when you walk in and say you're going to do Reiki, I bet you get some right old looks.
(40:02):
No, I don't use, I don't talk about Reiki, but I do talk about energy.
And one of the things I will say that I think most people can relate to is when you put a group of people, when you shove a group of people together with some kind of aim or connection or some reason to be together, a lot of what's happening is I come in at my frequency and you come in at your frequency.
(40:25):
And a lot of the, you know, that forming, storming.
Yeah, yeah.
Performing, mourning, all that stuff.
Whatever is, we're trying to find the frequency that we can all operate at.
We're trying to find that vibration or frequency.
(40:46):
And that takes quite a lot of fluctuation.
And the mistake that people often make is we know how good it could be, right?
But you're never going to hit the top vibration.
You never, because people are messy.
Working with people, being in relationship is messy and you're never going to be able to regulate that into the best it can ever be.
(41:11):
So we have to find the bandwidth.
But when we can't hit the top, what we mustn't do is then go down into the bottom.
Yeah.
So that's the work if you want me to talk about more about that energy.
So that energetic piece fits then with the language and the words we're using and moving into dialogue rather than debate.
(41:34):
It's all, that is the holistic piece, isn't it?
That is what makes this a human topic, right?
It's not a one element.
It's all of us.
And bringing all of us to these conversations into our communication, I guess that is the whole point, right?
Rather than relying on these outdated things.
Maria, we have run out of time already, which is mad.
(41:56):
But before we think about anything else, I have this part in the show I like to call Sticky Notes, where I'm going to ask you for your best bits of advice, your pearls of wisdom, Maria, that if people are listening to this and going, right, I do need to embed this stuff.
I need to embed some more compassionate communication in my workplace.
(42:17):
What three pieces of advice that you would fit on three little sticky notes would you leave us with?
Right.
Gosh.
So the first one is check your own reactions and triggers.
So the first and number one thing is it starts with you.
Starts with you.
(42:37):
Ask yourself, am I resourced?
Just because I'm feeling triggered, does it mean there's any kind of emergency going on right now?
And what's the likely impact of what I'm about to do?
So then and then the next one would be, is what I am about to do worth the cost to the relationships that I've built up?
(43:07):
Oh, is it worth it?
And then the third one would be, how do I take the temperature of what's happening in my team, group, business, client base?
(43:34):
And these three things are an art, not a science.
That's a beautiful way to end your sticky notes.
Some very thought-provoking questions asked in there as well.
Brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
As it's been this time I've had to spend with you, Maria, I have absolutely loved meeting you and listening to you.
(43:56):
I have absolutely no doubt this is not our last conversation.
Not if I have my way anyway.
If people want to find out a bit more about you, where can they find you?
Where are you hiding?
And tell us about this podcast that you're doing as well.
Thank you.
Well, my podcast is called All Things Conflict and I'm fully expecting you to be a guest on it.
(44:18):
I think that's a given.
And luckily, I have a fairly unusual name, Maria Arpa, A-R-P-A.
So if you Google me, I will show up.
And if you email me from one of the websites, you'll get to me.
It's not difficult to find me.
Brilliant.
(44:38):
And I love sharing these gifts.
I love sharing this work.
So yeah, bring it on.
Well, I can feel your energy and I'm sure the listeners can too.
Maria, it's been fantastic having you on.
Thank you so much for your time.
And I will definitely speak to you again soon.
Thank you.
Much love to you.
Thank you.
(44:58):
And you, that was Maria Arpa.
And if you'd like to find out any more about the things we've talked about on the episode or find out some more bits and pieces about Maria, then please go ahead and check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
(45:27):
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time.
Thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition-smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, have you ever experienced some kind of workplace conflict?
I expect most of us have at one time or another.
Now that kind of stuff can drain energy, stifle creativity and seriously damage your company's culture, let alone cause you untold amounts of worry, pain, stress and whilst all that's going on, total suppression of your performance too.
(01:39):
Yet many businesses still approach conflict resolution with outdated top down methods that can often make things worse not better and what if the answer wasn't stricter policies or stronger discipline but what if compassion, understanding and genuine human dialogue could transform your workplace into one where people thrive.
(02:04):
Obvious, common sense even, maybe, but that's not everyone's lived experience and so today I am delighted to be joined by Maria Arpa, an expert in workplace dynamics, compassionate communication and conflict resolution.
Maria's journey to me is nothing short of extraordinary, taking her from mediating neighborhood and gang disputes in London's toughest streets to becoming an influential advisor for senior executives and global companies today.
(02:37):
Her innovative dialogue roadmap combines heart-centered communication with practical strategies that not only resolve conflict but actively build healthier relationships at the same time.
Now Maria's holistic pragmatic approach has been embraced by organizations ranging from renowned restaurant chains to diverse global communities and her methods aren't just about reducing suffering, they're about enhancing productivity, retaining talent and creating environments where people feel genuinely valued and heard.
(03:13):
So if you've ever wondered if or how compassion could become one of your strongest leadership strategies, stick around.
This conversation could radically reshape how you and your organization approach difficult conversations and challenging dynamics.
Maria, welcome to the show.
(03:33):
Thank you, wow, what an introduction, thank you.
I feel so deeply honoured and then I kept looking over my shoulder and go, is he talking about me?
Of course I'm talking about you, you come with one hell of a reputation for this and I am really interested in hearing about your journey and the dialogue roadmap, but before we kind of dive headlong into that, I've tried in my own way to give an introduction to you and what you do and what you focus on, but you have a go.
(04:06):
Tell us about you, what are you up to at the moment?
Oh wow, well, so a lot of my work now is I think in three areas, so one is prisons and I'll go back into that in a minute.
The other is workplaces, I'm really interested in workplaces and how things are developing and shaping and the kinds of changes and responses that we need that are different to the responses that we perhaps needed 10 years ago.
(04:41):
And I also run a one-year training for people that want to do this work.
I do my own podcast, but you know, perhaps you'll let me give that a plug later on.
No question, no question, we'll get into all of that, no problem.
I'm fascinated by this journey from gangland to corporate, which I don't know, may feel the same at different times depending who you're dealing with, but just take me through that.
(05:09):
How have you come from that sort of environment to where you work today?
What's happened?
So if I go right back, you know, those of you that kind of recognise my accent will know, whilst when I'm in America, they love my accent, it's so wonderful to be here.
(05:29):
It's always kind of funny, because I don't want to say like, when I'm in the UK, I'm treated like I'm an idiot with this accent.
So, you know, it's very working class, it's an obsolete accent now, because this accent doesn't exist, it's kind of evolved into something else.
But it's a very working class, slum driven London, you know, my home was declared unfit for human habitation, you know, that sort of beginnings.
(06:00):
And then into entrepreneurship, you know, that was my way out of the ghetto.
And I have a background in advertising and marketing.
And then what happened was, I started to feel like I was in the spiritual desert.
It was lovely, I had all the trappings, I worked for really good clients, blue chip clients, and I had all the trappings on the outside, but a desert on the inside.
(06:28):
And they say that when the student is ready, the teacher appears.
And that in one year, I discovered Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication, I became a volunteer mediator in neighbour disputes, in housing estates, and I became a Reiki master, I've learned Reiki, which is energy work.
(06:57):
Yeah, I'm familiar with Reiki.
It was a very powerful cocktail that, all three in one go.
And I suddenly kind of had an enlightened path, and I could see a way forward.
And I felt that I could use my creativity that I'd previously been using in advertising and marketing, could use it to be of service.
(07:20):
So that was a journey.
And then I moved into an area, and there was much more gang activity.
I mean, who'd have thought a person with my accent could be accused of gentrification?
You know, you buy a bigger house than you would get where, you know, because you move to a cheaper area.
(07:42):
And, and I didn't want to be part of the problem.
I wanted to be part of the solution.
So I literally did, a seven year old girl was fatally shot near where I live, round the corner from where I live, made headline news.
I was bringing up teenagers, the gang activity was dangerous.
(08:06):
And after that shooting, and when the police decided to arrest somebody, they created a vacuum in the gang activity, which meant that there were drive-by shootings every day, like literally, and it was now spreading out of the gang activity, you know, it wasn't just between themselves.
(08:27):
And, you know, would I do it again?
Probably not.
But, you know, at the time, I went out on the streets and just started, and, you know, it's not as good as it sounds, because most people think you're mental and cross the road, but I just wanted to find out what was going on.
Well, I don't, I don't find you mental, I find you incredibly inspiring, because just for that very point, with that stuff going on, I mean, you tell me, I, the ghettos of grey Surrey is about as deep as I've got, you know, wherever I say I'm from Surrey, they go, oh, how posh, and I go, well, not where I came from, but, you know, whatever, nothing compared to what you're talking about, right?
(09:05):
But I would imagine people may be split into two categories at that point.
There are people who think, no, this is not for me, I want out, I want safety.
And yet you crossed the street, you went towards it, you sound like compelled by curiosity, what is going on?
What is driving it?
(09:25):
Can you just, explain that a little bit?
Yeah, so having been a volunteer in neighbour disputes, you know, I could understand there were certain things I was understanding about, you know, or trying to understand.
And the question that I was asking myself that sort of also related to my own childhood and the brutality of living in the slums was why do people fight?
(09:50):
Because there are no winners.
Yeah.
You could win the argument, but there really are no winners.
It's a pointless exercise.
But what I started to see was all arguments are the same.
They really are underneath at the very heart of it.
They're all the same.
(10:10):
What's different is how many rocks or weapons or the size of the weapons and resources I have to throw at somebody else.
What makes them the same?
Maria, in your experience today, why do you say they are the same?
What is it?
So I could give this to you very easily.
There are three conflict messages.
(10:31):
And you can look at this at the micro and the macro level.
So the first conflict message is you change to suit me.
No, you change to suit me.
No, you change to suit me.
Now, if you put a power imbalance in that, then you really got something very toxic.
(10:51):
Yeah.
Right.
Then the other message is a competition to the bottom, which is I'm worse off than you.
No, you're much worse.
No, I'm much more worse off than you.
Now, you've no idea how badly off I am.
I see that a lot in couple relationships.
(11:12):
Right.
And it's competing for an empty pot of empathy.
But the true conflict message, when you can get beyond that, the true conflict message is I need to know I matter.
Okay.
I need to know I matter.
And again, when you look at workplaces and you put power imbalances or gangs or anywhere where there's hierarchical structures and people with more resources and weapons and others, you're in a very toxic place.
(11:44):
So we need, you know, the things that we've been using, you know, we can alleviate the pain and the suffering and we can use enforcement.
But, you know, when I look back over 30 years, very little has changed in our ability to to work through conflict and come out the other side.
(12:07):
Very little has changed with the mainstream technologies and methodologies.
Yeah.
And I guess then this is why you may say it is or it isn't.
But if we've got these kind of three fundamental, I guess, essences of argument and conflict, the similarities between the street gangs that you've dealt with and now the corporate boardrooms that you kind of help facilitate, it's the same thing going on, right?
(12:36):
It's pretty much the same thing.
It's just levels of politeness.
Less weapons.
Because you can still be very polite and be toxic and an enforcer and using your authority or power over others.
You can do that very politely.
(12:59):
And and the difference being the willingness to cross the line into physical violence or not.
Yeah.
Less of that in the boardroom.
Yeah, obviously.
Yeah, clearly.
Maybe.
So your message, or one of your messages, is all about compassionate communication.
(13:19):
And it's a topic, not exactly what we talk about all the time, but we do talk a lot about human skills, empathy, compassion, these sorts of things.
I think they're massively important in today's workplace.
I think the society that we live in today demands it and businesses are catching up slowly.
But I sometimes get accused of being a bit of a fluff monster with all this sort of stuff.
(13:41):
You know, come on, Andy, business is about tough stuff.
And I don't think any of this human skills, as I would call it, is anything other than tough.
I think this is some of the toughest stuff we do.
But is compassionate work entirely practical, Maria, from your perspective, or is it in danger of crossing the fluff zone?
(14:02):
What would you say to that?
Well, you know, I can only speak for the work that I do.
And I know that my work is rigorous.
Yeah.
It holds boundaries.
It helps everybody to find a path.
Because, you see, compassion is not about being nice.
It has nothing to do with being nice.
(14:25):
In fact, I would say I'm not a very nice person.
But, you know, I'll give you the shirt off my back if there's a need.
It's about holding the contracts that we make and where our contracts either were never made properly or are no longer fit for purpose.
It's about redefining them, understanding that at the end of the day, we're all human.
(14:50):
At the end of the day, you go to the toilet, I go to the toilet.
I eat, you eat.
We go to the bathroom.
There are all certain fundamental bits of humanity.
And we can't just go, no, I have a job title and you don't have that job title.
Even with all of that, there's a humanity.
(15:11):
So, there's something I would like to put in here to make sure that people really get that the work is robust.
May I just take a minute to do that?
Oh, please.
I would love you to do that.
So, I understand that, you know, like you have disciplinary and grievances and policies and all of this stuff, right?
(15:31):
So, how I come at this is when you put a group of people together, and let's call that a workplace, right?
It could be a gang, could be a family, could be anything, right?
But a group of people come together.
And no organisation is ever going to allow one person or one group of people to put Spanner in the works.
(15:54):
It's not.
Because the cost of that to everyone, to the whole community could be greater than the survival of the organisation, okay?
So, I don't have a problem with that.
I have a problem with how, how we do it, okay?
(16:14):
We can come on to that.
So, I get that.
And we need to be able to communicate that to people, right?
We need to be able to communicate.
We're probably not going to let you stick a Spanner in the works and bring the whole thing to a standstill because your individual needs are not being met, okay?
However, to get to that place, you don't get to that place by having rules and enforcement.
(16:42):
Because all rules and enforcement will do is send people into dark corners where they'll be discussing how to undermine a system that doesn't care about them in other ways that you won't see until it's too late.
Absolutely.
Because I think sometimes it's the inability for ill-equipped managers or leaders to deal with people who've all got Spanners that they could chuck into the works.
(17:12):
And their inability to deal with those does cause slow-moving toxic problems within businesses.
As you said, eventually it's too late to do something about it.
So, you've got this, no chance we'll let someone absolutely ruin my business through their behaviour.
But little versions of that are going on all the time.
And our inability to deal with it could cause major problems, for sure.
(17:36):
So, if I start with that, then the next thing is, am I going to be able to run this business on my own with no other people?
Should I just go live alone in a cave, set myself up and run?
No, probably not.
Probably for any business to scale or operate, it's going to require relationships.
(17:58):
And what do I want from those relationships?
From those relationships, I need trust, need mutuality, need cooperation, contribution, honesty, care, diligence.
I mean, the stuff we need from those relationships doesn't come automatically.
(18:23):
There are skills we have to learn.
I can't demand trust and loyalty from you.
I can't demand care and diligence from you.
We can write it in a contract and then I can go after you and performance manage you.
And we can do all of those things.
(18:43):
But in the end, what that will do to me as a leader is it will leave me trusting even less.
It will leave me with what I had, you know, that spiritual desert I talked about.
So I want to run a business.
I want to make money.
I'll come on to some principles about that in a minute.
(19:06):
I want to put something wonderful out in the world or be of service or produce a product that, you know, that people want.
But I also need to care for my own humanity.
I need to sleep at night.
I need to eat good food.
I need to take care of myself because I'm one person when I'm fully resourced and I'm a completely different person when I'm not resourced.
(19:36):
So compassionate communication isn't top down.
And that's so I think that that's part of the thinking that needs to change is it isn't.
I'm going to, as a leader, learn to be compassionate to others.
It's compassion is a way of life.
It's a way of life that says, why are we doing this?
(20:00):
Why are we here now?
I mean, look, if you run a business, a for profit business, right, it must make a profit.
There's no other way is no then run a nonprofit or run a cooperative.
Right.
It must make a profit if it's a for profit business.
Now, what you do with that profit, how you distribute that profit or reinvest it.
(20:27):
And if you just want to buy yourself 10 Lamborghinis, then expect people are going to be pissed off with you.
All right.
If you how you use that profit determines how your workforce will see you.
And will also determine some of their willingness to go the extra mile.
(20:49):
So there are so you know, my work isn't I teach you some compassionate communication, you use it on people, and then you get a result.
It's, there's a different paradigm that I'm asking people to step into, that will bring riches that are often unquantifiable.
(21:12):
So I wonder, you know, how do you receive that?
Me, I think it's just wonderful.
One of the reasons I set this podcast up was this ridiculous in my head, because people will shout at me for saying things like, but ridiculous notion that you can't have a humanity based business and make it profitable.
And I just don't believe that.
(21:35):
I don't believe it.
I think we're so conditioned to the top down, beat the drum, do as you're told, and make me money, sort of motif in old business, there's still too much.
I think there's too much that rhetoric still around today.
I'd rather have the will of the people around me.
And that sort of collegiate in it together spirit.
(21:57):
And I don't care if anybody's listening to this game.
Oh, God, there he goes again.
That's why that's why thriving, that's an environment I want to be part of.
That's an environment I would feel happy leading, managing, working in.
Because I think if you're inside an organization like that, we've got that commonality of spirit, that curiosity of understanding.
(22:18):
And I think many times you spend so much time at work, that's the stuff that gives you a bit more meaning when you come home at the end of the day.
It is not such an abrupt kind of work and home.
It feels a bit more like you, it feels a bit more centered.
And why that sort of organization can't be successful profitably, and distribute it equally across its workers.
(22:42):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I love it.
Personally, Maria.
I mean, that's why I've got you on the show.
Because I want other people I love.
I love listening to people who challenge my view.
But I'll be honest, I get a lot of validation from hearing people who are making much more of a success of this than me, come on into this show and start talking about all the great things that they're doing.
(23:05):
And maybe if one or two more listeners hear from other people, they'll start to believe and change and do things.
And we'll all be in a better place as a result.
Is that too long a winded answer for you?
Oh, no, I mean, you know, this is music to my ears.
And, you know, we could be each other's mutual admiration.
We could have just started that today.
(23:27):
But what I wanted to respond to you was, you know, the idea that there are people that say you can't make money and have a humanity based, whatever.
And I like to give one of my robust answers to that, you know, and I love where you're coming from.
And clearly, that's my agenda, too.
But if I want to get really robust and rough about it, the truth is, you're not going to be able to run a business that's not humanity based, because we raised a generation, we just raised a couple of generations where we gave them access to all the psychological phrases.
(24:04):
We told them to look at psychology.
We told them to look at their neurodiversity.
We told them that they're allowed to be human.
We gave them lots of rights.
And I'm not saying we should or we shouldn't.
I don't have an opinion about this.
I'm just saying I'm trying to state a world as I see it.
It's a reality.
It's a reality.
(24:25):
It's a reality.
We said, oh, you've got rights.
There was a period where there was no parent who hadn't heard their child say, I've got rights.
So we gave a lot of rights out.
We gave them access to psychological terms.
I mean, the number of people that were walking, you know, when I was running the practice and say, oh, you know, I looked on the internet and it turns out my ex-husband or my ex-wife is a psychopath or whatever, you know, we handed out all these notes because they met all the criteria on the definition on Google, you know.
(24:59):
And so we've handed all this out to people.
You've got rights.
You're allowed to be different.
We can actually name that for you.
We put people through COVID restrictions where their freedoms were taken away and people didn't like that very much.
And then we said, oh, but actually the powers that be didn't follow any of those rules.
(25:24):
They did something different.
So we've taken a whole generation and we've given them a completely different perspective, a different perspective to the one I was given.
And now we're putting them in workplaces and they are saying, I'm not going to be treated like this.
Do I want to work for you?
(25:45):
I don't even know that I want a full-time job.
I don't even know that that's a destination for me.
And certainly if I do get it, you're going to have to be grateful that I'm coming to work for you.
And secondly, what is work in the first place?
Nobody taught me what work is.
And so I'm not sure I like the way that this is unfolding, the strategies, because it's just creating more them and us, right?
(26:14):
It's feeding into that.
But I can see that actually there's an expansion and a development and a shift that my question is, how painful do you want this to be if you want to run a successful business?
(26:36):
Yeah, we can't have done all this stuff in the background and then moan that they use that platform.
And they're using it and it's kind of like, oh my God, I never expected the change to come from this doorway.
And it's interesting to step back and watch and understand.
(27:02):
And leaders who can kind of at least come through the doorway into this world the way I'm seeing it, have got a better chance of doing something less painfully.
Which I think leads us nicely on to your dialogue roadmap maybe, in that if we're going to have these situations, going to have these conversations, what does that practical compassion look like in reality, in action?
(27:35):
So can you unpack that map for us?
Yeah.
So the origins of it are that as part of my search for why do people fight, I saw that a lot of it was trained into us, indoctrinated into us, because there's communicating with each other using words.
(28:01):
There are other ways of communicating, but we're not going to cover that today.
But communicating using words are conversations.
Now, there are many different types of conversation.
And what I learned is the model of conversation that we have been indoctrinated with is debate.
(28:22):
It's the debate model of conversation, because we place such value on academia, the military, science, the law, and those disciplines all use debate.
And the purpose of a debate is to have one argument prevail over all others.
(28:44):
Now, within certain contexts, that's fine.
But when that filters down into the way we entertain ourselves, watching films, and, you know, the way scripts are written.
And when we bring that into our families, and when we put it in the classroom, and in the classroom, actually, in our education system, we have the worst form of that because it's debate plus enforcement.
(29:11):
And that's the most toxic form of communication.
So what I was looking for, well, what's the alternative?
And dialogue is an alternative.
Yet, it's never presented, it's never talked, it's certainly not in our mainstream.
I started to see that in a dialogue, what we accept is that there isn't an argument to be won, that all the people involved and impacted have a piece of the answer.
(29:45):
They don't have it all, but we all have a piece of the answer.
And that's a very different way of talking to each other.
So then I started to look for how do you have a dialogue?
And how do you have a dialogue when everything you've ever learned is a debate?
How do you unlearn debate and learn dialogue?
And there wasn't any kind of manual for it.
(30:07):
So my work has been creating the very practical steps of how to have a dialogue.
A debate comes from the head.
A debate demands rational, logical thinking to put forward arguments to defeat the other.
It's a very strategic, militaristic way of being in the world.
(30:32):
A dialogue comes from a heart-based communication.
It has a very different vibration around it.
In fact, it says there may be differences that we need to discover or uncover, or tensions that need attending to, and we will attend to these because the cost of not attending it is too great.
(30:57):
But how do we look after each other while we fathom this out?
You're not an enemy or an adversary because we disagree.
So the dialogue roadmap has a lot of understanding about the state that I'm in.
Am I in the state of listening?
(31:18):
So you can do these active listening skills, and I do have techniques to get you there.
But it really is, am I in a state to receive?
So there's a place of receiving.
Then there's a place of human connection.
That's the empathy.
Like now we need to meet in our humanity.
(31:40):
And then maybe I want to give you a gift in the form of feedback.
And now I've received.
Now we can meet as humans.
I can understand this.
I can't walk in your shoes, but I can try and accept this is where we are.
Whether we like it or not, this is the raw material we have between us right now.
(32:06):
And now we need to share some gifts.
So and that comes as feedback, not criticism.
I mean, the word feedback in the business is terrible.
People hate because all it means is an excuse to tell people how rubbish they are.
Right.
But I'm talking about giving each other gifts and some gifts.
(32:26):
Some gifts are not as nice as others.
Some gifts are really useful and some gifts are not so useful.
And then how do we how are willingness to still be in relationship intact?
And there are, you know, there are techniques I use in the dialogue roadmap to help people understand the state.
(32:56):
Is that a sort of good enough answer?
Does that?
Oh, yeah.
I'm I'm just saying with my mind kind of ticking over about all of these.
I mean, I'm I'm I'm looking, listening to your roadmap, but I'm thinking of my own models that I would use when it comes to communication.
I think the feedback thing is is fascinating because it's a bit like performance management.
(33:18):
Most people don't look at it through one eye, the negative, naughty, you've done something wrong or you're not performing.
But the other side of the coin is there, too.
You know, it's like, hey, that was brilliant.
Keep doing more of that.
And often we miss that reinforcement piece, the validation piece, which is actually what a lot of people crave and need to push them on to the next level.
(33:39):
So I'm I'm totally I'm totally bought in to the framework.
But do you get when you're in businesses?
Are they hiring because they get it, but they don't know what to do?
Or are they hiring you because they realize, oh, we've got problems?
And actually, it's because of me, because I'm all hierarchical and I've got emotional issues and la la la help us out.
(34:02):
Because you must come up against cynics to this all the time.
Oh, completely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there are sort of two types of businesses, you know, for this work, you know, one is where they've run into problems.
And, you know, they just want a quick fix.
Yeah.
You know, they want to hire me an external mediator, they go around and look for the best price, bring someone in and hope they can put fire out and get everyone back to work as quick as possible.
(34:30):
You know, sometimes that's needed.
But I will often say, you know, I'll do that to showcase what's possible, but on the basis that we can get a longer relationship.
And then there are businesses that truly understand this.
And, you know, they realize that this is not this is not like an add on.
(34:50):
It's a way of, you know, people talk about culture now, don't know, it's all about people and culture.
And the culture will override anything and culture needs to shift.
And it's a slow process of building people's confidence in something new and different.
(35:12):
But you see, you go through that with this work, what you do.
And I want to be really clear.
Yeah, please.
This trust building to get to the point where you can start using shorthand with each other.
I mean, Jesus Christ, I am probably the most impatient person and everyone who knows me will know that I have very little patience.
(35:33):
So I love this work because it's taught me that I get to what I want quicker.
I get to the goal quicker using these once everyone's bought in.
So.
And more sustainably, Maria, right?
More sustainably, once you do this stuff, you got to keep going around the blinking loop the whole time.
Absolutely.
I haven't got, I can't, you know.
(35:56):
So, so, you know, this work's been really good for me because I'm not traditionally not a patient person.
And most things drive me mental, you know.
Right.
So, so this work's been very good for me and I want to share that with people.
You know, I want people to have that.
So, so you go through this and people learn and join and then you have a trust basis, a sustainable trust basis from which I can use shorthand.
(36:29):
I can say, oh, for ***** sake, do we have to go around that again?
And nobody's taking me to tribunal over it because we all, we got the love where you know, that I'll give you the shirt off my back if it came to it.
That's the point.
We're not dancing around, you know, my issue, who can tell the truth in any workplace?
(36:52):
Yeah.
We talk about trust a lot on this podcast and yet not enough because it's the foundation for everything.
And if you want performance and you want sustainable results, you only got to look at something like Lencioni's pyramid, five dysfunctions of a team.
It's there in black and white that the difference between high performing teams and those also rans is a constant foundation of trust and not something you tick once and go, right, we've done trust.
(37:23):
Let's move on.
It's a work in progress for forever.
But they realise having that trust means you can have the sort of conversations you've just talked about.
You can show some vulnerability.
I don't get this.
I don't like this.
I don't want this.
I'm not sure about it.
I can't do it all on my own.
Help me.
And challenge stuff through.
And then if you can challenge stuff through, then we'll commit to stuff, we'll take accountability, and then the results will be there.
(37:47):
But they'll be there in the long term, not this kind of like yin and yang, short termism stuff.
But I don't know, in your experience, why do you think we've still got, I'm guessing, a high proportion of organisations who still fail at this stuff, who still rely on authority and hierarchy to sort conflict, which to me only fans the flames a lot, or at least, you know, pisses people off and they leave.
(38:14):
Well, I mean, you know, we could do I could write a thesis on this.
I've got to get you back.
We haven't had enough time.
It's ridiculous.
If I have to give you a really short answer.
So this hierarchical system I name, it's not my words, it came from a theologian called Walter Wink, domination culture.
(38:34):
And we have been programmed and indoctrinated with domination culture since birth in our mainstream society.
And it's in the DNA.
It's actually in the DNA, what I've discovered, it's in the DNA.
Now, I've also discovered that empathy can change the DNA, but it's a process.
(38:55):
And so we are so attached to this, that it's hard to imagine another way.
It's hard to take the leap into another way, because then you're going to be in uncertainty.
And there is a period of uncertainty.
(39:16):
But what I've learned in my one year training is how to carry people through that uncertainty, to see the gifts that this really brings.
We have had nothing like enough time to get into this.
I'm going to have to get you back at some stage to have another chat, Maria.
And that what a chore that will be.
I will love that.
(39:37):
I do want to have a quick chat with you there before you go, around how you've been integrating some of your more holistic practices.
And because you mentioned at the top about your energy work and your Reiki work.
And I've just sort of said you got sceptics talking about compassionate conversation and communication.
My God, when you walk in and say you're going to do Reiki, I bet you get some right old looks.
(40:02):
No, I don't use, I don't talk about Reiki, but I do talk about energy.
And one of the things I will say that I think most people can relate to is when you put a group of people, when you shove a group of people together with some kind of aim or connection or some reason to be together, a lot of what's happening is I come in at my frequency and you come in at your frequency.
(40:25):
And a lot of the, you know, that forming, storming.
Yeah, yeah.
Performing, mourning, all that stuff.
Whatever is, we're trying to find the frequency that we can all operate at.
We're trying to find that vibration or frequency.
(40:46):
And that takes quite a lot of fluctuation.
And the mistake that people often make is we know how good it could be, right?
But you're never going to hit the top vibration.
You never, because people are messy.
Working with people, being in relationship is messy and you're never going to be able to regulate that into the best it can ever be.
(41:11):
So we have to find the bandwidth.
But when we can't hit the top, what we mustn't do is then go down into the bottom.
Yeah.
So that's the work if you want me to talk about more about that energy.
So that energetic piece fits then with the language and the words we're using and moving into dialogue rather than debate.
(41:34):
It's all, that is the holistic piece, isn't it?
That is what makes this a human topic, right?
It's not a one element.
It's all of us.
And bringing all of us to these conversations into our communication, I guess that is the whole point, right?
Rather than relying on these outdated things.
Maria, we have run out of time already, which is mad.
(41:56):
But before we think about anything else, I have this part in the show I like to call Sticky Notes, where I'm going to ask you for your best bits of advice, your pearls of wisdom, Maria, that if people are listening to this and going, right, I do need to embed this stuff.
I need to embed some more compassionate communication in my workplace.
(42:17):
What three pieces of advice that you would fit on three little sticky notes would you leave us with?
Right.
Gosh.
So the first one is check your own reactions and triggers.
So the first and number one thing is it starts with you.
Starts with you.
(42:37):
Ask yourself, am I resourced?
Just because I'm feeling triggered, does it mean there's any kind of emergency going on right now?
And what's the likely impact of what I'm about to do?
So then and then the next one would be, is what I am about to do worth the cost to the relationships that I've built up?
(43:07):
Oh, is it worth it?
And then the third one would be, how do I take the temperature of what's happening in my team, group, business, client base?
(43:34):
And these three things are an art, not a science.
That's a beautiful way to end your sticky notes.
Some very thought-provoking questions asked in there as well.
Brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
As it's been this time I've had to spend with you, Maria, I have absolutely loved meeting you and listening to you.
(43:56):
I have absolutely no doubt this is not our last conversation.
Not if I have my way anyway.
If people want to find out a bit more about you, where can they find you?
Where are you hiding?
And tell us about this podcast that you're doing as well.
Thank you.
Well, my podcast is called All Things Conflict and I'm fully expecting you to be a guest on it.
(44:18):
I think that's a given.
And luckily, I have a fairly unusual name, Maria Arpa, A-R-P-A.
So if you Google me, I will show up.
And if you email me from one of the websites, you'll get to me.
It's not difficult to find me.
Brilliant.
(44:38):
And I love sharing these gifts.
I love sharing this work.
So yeah, bring it on.
Well, I can feel your energy and I'm sure the listeners can too.
Maria, it's been fantastic having you on.
Thank you so much for your time.
And I will definitely speak to you again soon.
Thank you.
Much love to you.
Thank you.
(44:58):
And you, that was Maria Arpa.
And if you'd like to find out any more about the things we've talked about on the episode or find out some more bits and pieces about Maria, then please go ahead and check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
(45:27):
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time.
Thanks for listening.
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