September 25, 2025 • 48 mins
Empathy is often described as a “soft skill” — something nice to have, but not essential for business. But what if we’ve been thinking about it all wrong?
In this episode of Sticky From The Inside, I’m joined by Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller — TEDx speaker, executive coach, host of The Empathic Leader podcast, and author of The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation.
Melissa introduces the idea of practical empathy — empathy as a skill you can develop, measure, and apply every day. We explore why empathy starts at home with self-empathy, the leadership keystone. She explains how reflection and awareness drive better leadership decisions, and why empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space. Along the way, Melissa shares personal stories, research insights, and practical steps leaders can use to build cultures that are more innovative, more productive, and more human.
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Key Takeaways- Self-empathy is the keystone. Leaders can’t show empathy for others if they don’t first understand and connect with themselves.
- Reflection builds awareness. Daily self-reflection and awareness of impact create the foundation for better decisions and relationships.
- Empathy is a skill, not fluff. Practical empathy is skills-based, data-driven, and outcomes-oriented — not just “being nice.”
- Empathy and judgment can’t coexist. Removing judgement opens the door for leaders to grow, connect, and build trust.
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
0:01:10 – Why empathy matters more than ever in leadership 0:02:45 – Meet Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: researcher, coach, author 0:05:26 – A career unravelled: when organisations show no empathy 0:07:05 – What Melissa means by “practical empathy” 0:09:43 – Can empathy be learned, or is it innate? 0:12:30 – Defining self-empathy: the leadership keystone 0:16:27 – The role of judgment and why it blocks empathy 0:22:09 – The path to building self-empathy: reflection, awareness, empathy 0:30:28 – How self-empathy leads to corrective action and growth 0:36:38 – Performative empathy: why saying it isn’t enough 0:41:56 – The business case: empathy’s impact on profit, productivity, and innovation 0:45:51 – Melissa’s three Sticky Notes of advice
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller on LinkedIn here Find the EQ via Empathy website here Listen to The Empathic Leader Podcast here Get "The Empathic Leader" book here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, if empathy is such a vital leadership skill, why do some of us skip the most important step in looking at ourselves?
Is it because it's harder for some than others?
(01:24):
Because we're all too busy to think about it?
Or maybe it's because a fair few don't really see the value in it at all.
We often talk about empathy in terms of understanding and connecting with other people.
But my guest today, Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, believes we've got to start somewhere else, closer to home.
(01:45):
And she calls it self-empathy.
It's about understanding and connecting with yourself first, so you can show up more clearly, confidently, and consistently for others.
Now Melissa is a TEDx speaker, exec coach, host of the Empathic Leader podcast, and author of the Empathic Leader, how EQ via Empathy transforms leadership for better profit, productivity, and innovation.
(02:11):
In her work, she focuses on something she calls practical empathy, turning empathy from a nice notion into a skill you can actively develop and apply every day.
So in this episode, we're going to dig into the steps to building self-empathy, explore why it matters more than you might think, and see what the latest research reveals about empathy's impact on performance, innovation, and retention, when it's done well.
(02:43):
Welcome to the show, Melissa.
Thank you so much for having me, and I don't want to get off track, but I've got to say you have some of the best bumper music in the business.
I love it.
It's amazing what you can find in the YouTube studios.
It really is.
It's fabulous.
I'd love to think that I had some sort of rock band set up in the corner just recording for me, but maybe in a few years' time, maybe.
(03:04):
We'll see how we go.
But bless you.
What a lovely way to start.
Well, I was listening to your podcast, I'm just like, yeah, that's like that guitar sound.
And oh, yeah, let's talk.
This sounds fantastic.
Tom Clougherty It's very upbeat indeed, which I'm sure this conversation is going to be too.
Now, I've given a very small little introduction to you, Melissa, but do me a favour.
(03:28):
Before we get into the topic, which I'm desperate to do, please just give us a better introduction to you, who you are, and what you're focused on today.
So I am currently very focused on empathy, and it's because of some stuff that happened in my past life.
And I'm sure a lot of people can relate to it, being in a job or in a career where there is no empathy within an organization.
(03:53):
There is no ability for people to understand and connect.
For me, it came out of an assault.
I was a musician.
I loved what I was doing.
I mean, I loved everything about it.
But I also loved food, shelter and clothing.
And being a performing musician, sometimes those things can be a little difficult.
So I went and I got my doctorate and I went to be a professor.
(04:14):
And within my first term, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues.
And then over the next seven years, my career, which I mean, I'd worked on for decades, just unraveled, because no matter who I talked to or where I went or what I tried to do, there was zero empathy.
And it wasn't because people were evil.
It isn't because people were bad.
It's because the organization and the system had them so beaten down that they just couldn't hear it.
(04:39):
And I eventually had to leave, which was hard.
I'd been a musician my whole life.
But after that, I kind of spun for a while, and I kept trying to figure out what had happened.
What was the thing?
And at this point, my husband and I were doing some consulting, and I had been doing some other work.
And I just kept seeing these behavioral patterns repeated in these organizations.
(04:59):
And I kept kind of coming back to this idea of empathy.
That's supposed to be something that's so integral to us as humans.
And yet within these organizations, somehow we couldn't be human enough to have empathy.
So I started researching it.
And long story short, now I'm into my second doctorate, which is a little insane, but it's in empathy and leadership.
(05:20):
My dissertation is empathy and leadership, and I'm that serious about it because I believe in it that strongly.
Wow.
Well, I can feel the passion already emanating from you on this topic.
But that's a horrible experience to have.
I know I'm nothing to do with it, but I'm sorry you had to go through something like that.
But it looks like you're really turning that horrible negative experience into something good and something practical.
(05:47):
Yeah, trying to.
I call it trying to turn garbage into gold.
Because if I can help other people, if I can keep anybody from having to deal with what I dealt with, even on a small level, then I figure I've succeeded.
And we see this lack of human-to-human empathy in these organizations so often that it's a place where people can make a massive impact.
(06:12):
And it does well for the business besides because the data is there to show it does increase profit, productivity, and innovation.
So it's a win-win situation.
So why not?
Which I am fascinated to get into.
I would like to, if I may, just ask you at the very start of this so we can get everyone on the same page.
There's two phrases that I think we have looked at.
(06:34):
I'm going to get to self-empathy in a sec, but practical empathy.
Because let's define what practical empathy means from your perspective, Melissa, before we move on.
Because I reckon, even based on my own research for this particular episode, I could have gone down all sorts of different alleyways in my own interpretation of that.
(06:56):
And I don't want to start the whole show off in the wrong direction.
So when you talk about practical empathy, what are you really saying?
How do you define that?
So practical empathy for me is something that is skills-based, it is data-driven, and it is outcomes-oriented.
It isn't this soft, fluffy feeling thing, which that's how most people know empathy.
(07:17):
And that's part of empathy, but it's not all of it.
Empathy, it's this incredibly complex thing.
It spans a bunch of different subjects from psychology and neurobiology to philosophy.
One researcher actually pinned it down to 43 different kinds of empathy that fall into eight broad categories.
Yeah, it's a massive, massive subject.
(07:39):
And researchers don't agree on it necessarily.
So we're kind of in that kind of water where, of course, society isn't necessarily going to understand it because the researchers aren't necessarily pinning it down.
But for me, I think the easiest way to actually describe practical empathy is that we're out of this fuzzy feeling kind of thing, and it is skills-based.
(08:02):
The way I like to describe it is it's like having a treadmill.
You get the treadmill after Christmas, and then by New Year's, it sits in the corner, and you hang clothes on it, and the cat slips on it kind of thing.
It's great to have, but you're not going to get results if you don't use it.
Empathy is the same way.
It's great to have, but you have to actually use it in interpersonal interaction in a practical way for it to really, really have value.
(08:29):
Yeah, I think, I mean, blimey, 43 types of empathy.
I mean, that's a start of a conversation right there because I think, I mean, maybe that's part of why some people will describe this as pink and fluffy and, you know, intangible.
And if the researchers can't nail it down, well, is it really a thing?
(08:50):
But I think we've all probably experienced those situations where someone does connect with you and see something from your perspective and has a line of curiosity and support that is in line with your stance at that point or the position that you are in, and they act accordingly.
So this is going to be a fascinating conversation, I'm sure.
(09:12):
Another thing I just want to touch on, you've already used words like neurobiology, which is, I'm in now, okay, I love these things.
But I wonder when we talk about empathy, we almost fall into two buckets, right?
Those guys who get it, understand it, and do let you see it as a skill.
And others perhaps with a bit more of a fixed mindset about it are of the opinion that, well, it's just a personality trait.
(09:36):
You either have empathy or you don't.
What do you say to those folks, Melissa?
So again, this is another myth that's out there because there is some biological basis, there is some empathy that you are born with or you're not, and there are certain people that are born without it completely.
(09:56):
I mean, luckily, they're a very small percentage of the population, but we're talking dark triad, which is psychopaths, sociopaths, Machiavellians, and narcissists.
They have little or no empathy by definition.
So that's part of what they are.
So those people aside.
I think I've definitely worked with a couple of those in my career, Melissa, but yeah.
(10:18):
Yeah.
I think we all have, sadly.
But that part that you are born with or not, there's other kinds.
Like you talk about cognitive empathy, and that means I logically understand what you feel or I logically understand what you're at.
I just don't feel it.
And in business and leadership, I actually find this to be one of the biggest tools that we can use because if you're in charge of a company, right, and you're having to make big decisions, and they're not all going to be popular decisions, but you have to because the business has to run first, then you can fall into this cognitive empathy and actually being able to logic through it.
(10:57):
It's actually a very important part of it.
I believe that the three go together.
And this is what I talk about in my book, affective or emotional empathy, which is the one that I feel, what you feel, cognitive empathy or logical empathy, which is I logically get it.
I just don't necessarily feel it.
And then self-empathy, which is a whole different thing that there isn't a lot of research, like hardcore research on, which is why it fascinates me all the more.
(11:20):
Well, it fascinates me too.
And we're going to introduce people to this topic today, but I'm, my head's already spinning.
This is wonderful.
Even the three, the three types, just the way that you described the cognitive empathy, because I would, I would consider myself more of the emotional empath, if you like, you know, I'm, I guess I'm pretty well wired for that, but the way you've just described cognitive empathy, I can see examples of that with people that I've worked with, but perhaps I didn't connect with there.
(11:51):
I'm pretty sure I used that process myself at times too, without giving it a label or understanding it.
So I'm in Melissa, this is going to be fab.
So let's look at self-empathy then, the third place in your list of three.
There's a couple of things I'd like to ask.
You've just started on a sort of a mild definition.
I'd like, if you could just to explain that definition a little more deeply, the self-empathy, what that really is, what it shows up like, how do we, should we think about it?
(12:22):
And then why you think this is particularly a really interesting foundation stone for leading other people?
Sure.
Cause I think, I think it is the keystone.
I mean, I think that's, that's where you have to begin.
So we get, if we get away from this idea that empathy is feeling right, really what empathy is, is understanding and connecting.
(12:45):
And there's different ways to do that, which is why there's so many different kinds, right?
So when you think about self-empathy, really what it is, is being able to understand and connect with yourself.
Cause if you think about these people in these leadership positions, right, usually they're very driven.
They're very ambitious.
They're very high self-actualized, right?
If you think of Maslow's pyramid and the little piece at the top, you know, these are people that, that really strive.
(13:10):
And because of that, they don't necessarily take the time to understand and connect with themselves first, which means that number one, that's why you end up with higher rates of burnout.
You end up with different substance problems.
You can end up with family problems.
You end up with all sorts of issues in leadership, right?
But number two, how can you expect to be able to show this for somebody else if you don't know how to show it for yourself?
(13:34):
Charity starts at home.
It's interesting, isn't it?
The, the, the people can become, I guess, so fixated with the goal, the target, the result, everything else sort of pales in into insignificance in the background until it becomes too late and something happens as a result of those things, right?
You're talking about taking a more present attitude to understanding where you are at any given moment in time, I guess, and what's, what's driving that.
(14:03):
Okay, great.
Fabulous.
How do you think that actually shows up though in daily behavior?
What, what's, what sort of behaviors are you advocating?
So here's, here's an example, right?
A lot of times we get people in these leadership positions that get there not because they're the best leaders, because they're the best technicians, because they're the best politicians, because they've, they've done all the right steps, but it's not necessarily because they know how to lead.
(14:31):
And a lot of times, if these people actually take the time to think about it, they know this, but instead of taking the time to think about it, they'll just rush in, they'll make snap judgments, both against themselves and other people.
It'll be that this is how we do things, because this is how we've always done things without actually taking a moment to go, okay, so why are we doing this?
(14:53):
Could I lead this better?
Am I able to create a better synthesis between what I'm doing with my leadership and my people to create an environment where everybody can grow?
And what I'm finding, and you know, some of my other stuff is on, is that a lot of this comes back to judgment.
When we judge, we immediately place judgment on, you know, this is good, this is bad, this is the right way to do it, this is the wrong way to do it.
(15:20):
And under this judgment, you know, we kind of tend to suffer, honestly.
And without adding that judgment to what you're doing, self-empathy allows you to look at these behaviors and say, yeah, maybe this wasn't the best way for me to lead.
Maybe I could have done better in that meeting without yelling at people.
(15:42):
Maybe taking that heavy-handed approach when I was doing my employee reviews wasn't the best way to go.
But you're doing it without judgment, right?
Empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, period, whether it's judgment of yourself or judgment of another person.
So the second you know judgment is going on, it's not empathy.
(16:03):
And that's usually a big cue that now I need to step back, be critical, not caring of whatever it is that I feel I'm judging myself for as a leader.
You know, think about it.
Critique is good.
It helps us to grow.
It helps us to learn.
But there's a difference between critiquing and judging, where we're actually putting a value on it and saying, I'm a bad person because I did this like this, you know?
(16:27):
Okay.
That's actually quite a lot to take in, you know, especially if you come pre-wired with the notion of what empathy is and you think you understand empathy.
Because I'm not the cleverest man in the world.
We know that.
Let's get that out in the open.
Not that it needs any flagging.
(16:49):
But I'm coming to this conversation open, trying to understand, looking to understand more stuff, right?
But I'm also coming to the conversation with my own bias of what empathy means and what it feels like.
And I've already sort of said I'm definitely on the more emotional side of understanding what empathy is, seeing something from somebody else's perspective and not making, like you say, a judgment, but just trying to see something from somebody else's perspective to connect with them in that sense and understand what's going on.
(17:23):
I have just found that last bit really hard to put myself in a place where I'm properly understanding self-empathy in the way that you describe it, which is fascinating because I get what you're saying.
It's just, I've never attached empathy to that, if you like, critique or assessment or whatever that process label has.
(17:50):
I've never used the word empathy alongside it.
But it's beginning to make a bit of sense for me in that it's about an understanding and connecting to what's just happened or the thought process that's gone.
I just would never have used the word empathy.
And most people wouldn't.
Yeah.
You're not the only one.
And that's part of why we have so much, like when you said in the beginning, what do you do when people push back against this?
(18:14):
Well, they push back against this idea that empathy is all feeling and that feeling doesn't belong in organizations.
Yeah.
But empathy is so much bigger than that.
That's the thing.
It really, I mean, I understand.
I just, I said a lot in a very...
No, no, no, no, no.
It wasn't anything to do with the volume of things that you were putting across.
(18:35):
It was me being able to detach from my own personal understanding, let's put it that way, of what I believe empathy is to somebody who's studying this topic, right?
In far more detail, from far many more different perspectives than I have.
(18:57):
And I would never have attached the word empathy to that thought process.
I just think that's really, really interesting.
Really interesting.
I don't know.
There could be people listening here going, oh, get on, Andy.
Come on.
We're all there.
We've already got it.
And I'm like, hey, listen, I'm just being honest.
I'm just trying to connect to it.
No, there's a reason why people study this the way they do, because it really is.
(19:20):
We didn't even really study empathy as a topic until like 1910 or so.
Before that, it meant pity.
So, you know, this whole thing has gone through this massive evolution.
I think that's really interesting, because maybe some of the people who believe this stuff is a little bit woo-woo and doesn't have a place in business is that we've still got conflation with terms or feelings around sympathy or being self-indulgent or pity.
(19:50):
I mean, in the research that you have done clearly to write one book and continue on your second doctorate, which is crazy with the amount of work that must take, do you see that...
Not anymore.
But that's why we love you, Melissa, and that's why we're having a lovely chat.
I think, do you come across this sort of conflation in other people, still using those old definitions, beliefs that that's what it's all about?
(20:20):
Oh, definitely.
Yeah, totally.
And I mean, even within the research, you can look and see this evolution of the topic.
So even if the researchers who are supposed to be cutting edge are moving along this line, then the lay people who are following what they're saying, of course, they're going to be confused, because it is such a massive subject.
And there's been such a huge thing in the last 10 years or so, but especially since COVID, where a lot of big thinkers are like, use empathy, use empathy, use empathy, use empathy.
(20:52):
Okay, that's great.
How do I use empathy?
Well, I don't know, just go out and use it.
It's natural.
Okay, well, can you lead me in the right direction?
No, just go use it.
That doesn't help, because it makes it sound like it's something we're either born with or we're not, which again, I mean, goes back to what we were saying.
I mean, in other countries, they actually teach empathy in schools.
Really?
(21:12):
Wow.
Yeah.
Under like social emotional learning models.
That's cool.
I think that is fascinating.
Really fascinating.
I'm sitting here, the old brains whirring.
I want to go back to this thing you were talking about, where empathy and judgment can't sit in the same room.
I love that.
That's a lovely, lovely notion.
Has that got something to do with, you think, this group of leaders who perhaps might turn their back on this or pay no attention to this topic, and by then not looking inward, what do you think it is that they're missing from not putting this stuff into practice?
(21:53):
What are the gulfs that you see in all of the research and the people that you work with, Melissa?
I'm fascinated.
I see a real gulf in the steps that lead up to having self-empathy.
Okay.
This is just from what I've seen and what I've put together and that sort of thing.
(22:13):
It starts with being able to self-reflect.
A lot of times, these people are very busy, and I'm not negating that.
I mean, it's hard to be a leader.
It's like the end of the Conan movie, where they say, heavy is the head that wears the crown.
It is.
It's a lot of responsibility.
But because of that, they either can't or won't take that time to self-reflect.
(22:37):
It's hard, because you're looking at stuff you may not want to see.
But if you think of self-reflection as turning it in, how am I doing with this?
How did I end up with this situation?
How did I make people feel when I blew up in that meeting?
How did I react to that?
That self-reflection, ideally, then can turn to self-awareness, where you turn this outward.
(23:00):
How did this make everybody else feel?
What is this doing to my company?
Now, I've got two more employees leaving.
We have this attrition, which, according to the Society of Human Resource Management, takes 90% to 200% of the employees' wages to replace these people.
How have my actions affected my environment around me?
Then you can get to self-empathy and the critical not caring.
(23:22):
Okay, I see what I did.
This didn't work.
This did work.
I'm not going to put judgment on myself and call myself a horrible person, even if, in the moment, that's definitely how it was perceived, but I'm going to fix it.
I'm going to move this forward.
I'm going to show myself kindness and understanding and mercy that this maybe shouldn't have happened, but it did, and now we have to move forward.
(23:45):
Then, once you have those things in place, self-reflection, self-awareness, self-empathy, now you can start to turn that empathy outward and start to understand your people and the organization and how this all synergistically flows as a huge organism.
I'm just reflecting on something a previous guest said on a show we were talking about, psychological safety.
(24:07):
I think he gave a great example of what you've just talked about here in this reflection piece.
There was an example he gave of going through a psychological safety test with some employees, and on the results, somebody said to the boss, well, I could have told you that before.
The boss immediately reacted and said, well, why didn't you tell me?
(24:30):
The reflection on that afterwards was, hey, actually, it's not why do you tell me, it is what sort of environment have I created that means you couldn't tell me.
I think that's my interpretation of what you've just said in a practical sense, right?
Yes, exactly.
That's exactly how it plays out in the real world.
(24:50):
Yeah.
Okay.
You've now started to talk about this path to building self-empathy.
I think we're now beginning to understand that this self-empathy thing is about connection, understanding, this judgment-caring piece.
You talk about a path towards building self-empathy.
Can you walk us through that path, just picking up the various stages and just explaining how they link together and the importance of that process?
(25:22):
Yeah.
It is a process.
I tell my clients that this is, I mean, back to being a musician, that it's a practice, not a performance, because in practice, you're doing it every day.
You are working on it every day.
A performance happens one time and you're done, finished, perfect, in the can.
Practice happens every single day, all the time.
(25:43):
This is definitely a practice.
It follows those steps of starting with self-reflection, so taking the time to really stop and think about that day.
It doesn't have to be hours and hours of meditating.
It can be 30-second journal entries.
It can be what I call micro-meditations, where you stop and you stop the world for just a second.
(26:07):
You go, how did that actually go?
Did this actually go like I think it did or did it not?
This is where having someone outside of you that will tell you the truth is good.
That doesn't mean someone that's going to answer to you and tell you what you want to hear.
This means someone who's going to tell you the truth, whether it's a coach or a mentor or something like that, but having that piece in place so that you actually have a clear view of how this is happening and how it relates to you on the inside.
(26:35):
It's that adage of the pickle jar.
If you're in the pickle jar, you can't read the label on the outside of the pickle jar, so you have to have someone out there who can help you read it.
That's precisely what the self-reflection piece is.
That's the dirty work.
Moving from that to the self-awareness, now you're asking these same people, can you show me how this affected other people?
(26:57):
I saw this, this, and this.
Is that what actually happened?
I think this affected other people.
These layoffs, they had to happen for the good of the company, but maybe I could have handled the way I did it better in that meeting when I blew up.
What I wanted to do was light a fire, but I think all I did was scare everybody.
(27:21):
Am I aware of my place in this universe, or do I think maybe I'm creating this microcosm that isn't quite real?
Now that you've reflected and you're aware of how this is affecting everybody else, you can start to instill the actual self-empathy.
I now understand what happened.
I can connect to that part of myself that was judging myself for being a bad leader, so I was trying to lead other people the way I thought I should by yelling at them, by being hardcore, by pushing them just as hard as I push myself.
(27:55):
We see that a lot.
Well, that's how I was trained.
Well, that's what my leaders did.
Well, this is what I do to myself.
Well, no.
Now that I've reflected on it and I'm aware of what that is actually doing to me and why I now have a substance abuse problem, then I have the empathy to be able to start to address this to myself and the empathy for my people to say, I don't want to drive them like that.
(28:19):
This is not helping me.
This is not helping them.
This is not helping our organization.
Okay.
I am getting clearer.
Honestly, I love what you're taking me through today, so let me just try and see if I can connect to you, see if I've properly understood this, because I'm sitting here going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it now, but I really want to make sure, because this is such a departure and actually not really what I expected I was going to take from today's conversation so far, which is brilliant.
(28:53):
So, I get the self-reflection thing.
I think the thing that sort of prompted me to think about stuff when you were talking about that is when you mention words like meditation to people, I mean, that can lose an audience immediately, right?
That's when people start going, oh God, where is it?
But again, that's another word I think just gets misinterpreted.
(29:14):
I think this is just about being alone with your thoughts for a bit and seeing some things clearly.
So, I get the self-reflection thing.
And actually, when we think about this whole self-empathy thing and me not being able to connect to it initially, I think it's all been wrapped up in reflection previously in my own head.
The process that I've gone through has been wrapped up in reflection.
(29:35):
I think the self-awareness after reflection, that's great.
The clarity of what was the impact of what just happened.
For me, I've taken the impact assessment of that in that sense.
There's a real purpose to it.
And then now I kind of see the self-empathy thing around, in that instance, you talked about connecting to what I was trying to achieve, but understanding what was going on because of the impact that may have taken place instead.
(30:05):
Now, if I bring together the time I've taken to think about it, understanding the impact of what I did, and then having the self-empathy to understand what I was trying to do or why perhaps I did the thing I did, I can now take a corrective action on the back of that because I've joined all the dots, if you like.
Am I anywhere closer to understanding this stuff better now?
(30:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
The big thing is just that, as you said, it comes back to that understanding and connection.
Whether it's an understanding
and connecting of events or an understanding of yourself about why you do things the way you do
and connecting to that so you don't do it anymore, an understanding of your people and connecting so
(30:50):
that you can actually create a better organization instead of just doing the same things because this
is how we've always done them and not stopping to actually think about it, not understanding why you
do it and not connecting to the fact that this may not actually be the best course of action.
Yeah, and this really does link quite strongly to the whole development of emotional intelligence, right?
(31:12):
Moving from react to respond, I guess, making the connections between the two parts, would you say?
Yeah, totally.
In fact, in the beginning, empathy was put into the emotional intelligence basket.
This goes back to Daniel Goleman's book in 1995, and it was part of it.
(31:33):
I actually think you have to have empathy first because if you think of emotional intelligence as a basket of tools, right?
You've got chisels and saws and hammers and screwdrivers and whatever.
If you use empathy first to connect and understand, then you know when you reach into that basket if you're reaching in for a saw or a left-handed screwdriver.
(31:54):
Whereas if you don't employ empathy first, how do you know what's going to be the most effective tool to grab?
And when you talk about tools, I mean, you mentioned things like journaling, meditation, micro-meditation.
Are there other specific tools that you recommend to help try and strengthen, build this sort of self-empathy muscle that we have but perhaps don't use as often as we should?
(32:25):
I actually think the best thing you can do is have someone that you can talk to about this that will give you the straight answers.
And it doesn't matter if it's a spouse or a colleague or a coach or whatever, as long as this person understands, I've been looking at this path to be able to instill self-empathy so that I can actually employ empathy within my organization.
(32:50):
I'm building this skill.
It isn't just a fluffy woo, we're going to journal and feel better kind of thing, which has its place too, just this isn't it.
I'm sure you have client confidentiality and all that kind of stuff.
But are there any specific stories that spring to mind of people you've taken through this process who have really understood and got to grits with the self-empathy thing and seen some major changes in behavior or attitude as a result?
(33:22):
Yeah.
So I'll keep it kind of vague.
There's one in particular.
Always useful.
Yeah.
I can actually think of a couple, but I can think of one in particular because as he himself has said, he doesn't really feel he has emotional empathy.
(33:45):
He doesn't necessarily have that deep feeling, but he was really able to get a hold of the cognitive empathy side of things and start to be able to use this with his people.
But in the process, we were working him into self-empathy through the self-reflection, self-awareness, self-empathy.
In doing this, what he figured out was that he wasn't really using self-empathy or whatever, because there was too much going on with his leadership that he didn't want to see.
(34:15):
He knew that he had been damaged, I guess is maybe a good way to put it, by some of his leaders and the way that they had taught him, and he had compartmentalized this.
So of course he wasn't necessarily feeling it because it was painful.
He didn't want to think about some of the ways that he had been brought into the industry.
(34:37):
Once he was able to connect with that, then he was able to get away from the, this is how we do it because this is how I was trained, and now I'm going to train others, and now I'm going to do this to my people.
He saw results in terms of innovation right away because he was able to build that trust with his people.
They started coming to him with ideas to be more efficient right from the front lines.
(34:59):
They understood that he was listening, actually tapping into some of those emotional intelligence skills.
It's created a really good system.
He's working well with his people, and he's come a long way.
I think the people reference here is fascinating because I think I think we genuinely have a good sense of when people are being genuinely empathetic towards us and when they're being performative or pretending, and I think this is a bit of a worrying trend.
(35:31):
I tried to be a good boy, I tried to do some research, and I had a quick look at the Ernst and Young, well they have a repeated report, right, between 21 and 24, I think, where they've started to look at some of these things.
I thought there were a couple of things that were really interesting.
You will know these, but I'd love to get your view on this and how you see this playing out, but I think the two pieces that stuck out for me were 90% of workers link empathic, or sorry, empathetic leadership to higher job satisfaction, and there were clearly reported boosts in innovation, efficiency, and most importantly for me and the topic of this podcast, particularly retention.
(36:13):
However, the report, especially of late, is also citing growing concerns over this performative empathy, pretending or masking, and a complete lack of follow-through, like we'll say we're being empathetic and then nothing ever happens.
(36:34):
Do you see these things playing out, those stats living large for you?
Yes, yes, very much so, and I think that is a result of so many high-profile people talking about it, is now it's a very buzzy word, right, and people want that in their mission, vision, and values that we show empathy and, you know, that kind of thing, but people aren't stupid.
(36:56):
They can see it.
You know, if you talk one thing and walk another, they're going to know, and yet these employers wonder why they have the employee attrition they have, or why they have the generational friction, or why there's all these other problems coming up, and they never stop to reflect on the fact that, well, I'm the one talking this game, and because I'm the leader, I'm always on stage.
(37:20):
Somebody is watching.
Somebody sees what I'm doing, and when they see this difference between what I'm saying and what I'm doing, that makes me look like a hypocrite.
They can't trust me.
Trust is when words and actions align over time, and if they see my words and actions do not align over time, how are they going to trust me, but yet they don't understand why everyone's leaving.
(37:42):
That connection and awareness thing crops up again, right?
That's why I think that authentic empathy, self-empathy, to understand the impact of your actions on others, I think is fascinating because that's where I think the formative stuff falls flat, is that there's some almost ridiculous view that if I say this stuff loudly enough and with confidence and with some mouse mats and some posters, people are going to say, yeah, that's him.
(38:14):
That's what we're doing.
We're all with it, but if my actions don't kind of follow that up, then we know, but I don't understand how people fool themselves to think that they can get away with it because the employee population know it.
I mean, you mentioned values and behaviors.
I mean, this is a massive soapbox for me because I'd rather organizations didn't even talk about these things if they're not going to live and die by them because they become more divisive, right?
(38:44):
And this is the same stuff.
This is just, this is more action-based though.
This is saying, I think, and I feel, and I connect, and I understand, and I see your perspective.
Yeah, but screw that.
I'm still going to do this, this, this, this, this.
It just doesn't match up, right?
It just doesn't match up.
Are you, are you seeing, I mean, it's such a new, it's such a, well, to me at least, it's such a new concept, this self-empathy thing.
(39:09):
Are you seeing more and more leaders become aware of this, this stuff and wanting to do something about it?
And, and I don't even know if this is a self-fulfilling question or not.
The people that come to you, what end of the scale are they on?
Are they on the, I love this, I know this, I'd like to get better at it, or are they like, I am a psycho, I need, I need help?
(39:33):
I mean, what goes on?
You know, it's, they kind of fall into two groups.
Either there's the ones that are in so much trouble, the psychos, that they're like, I got to do something or my board's kicking me out.
I need you to implement this.
And it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not how this works.
You know, I'm happy to help you with this.
(39:54):
I'm happy to help you learn it, but I can't do this for you.
You have to do it.
And then there's the other ones that are more like, you know, I kind of have a hold on this.
I kind of have an idea what this is.
And I understand that this could help, but I don't understand exactly how.
Can you help me get a hold of this so that I can actually implement it?
And they tend to be a little bit younger.
(40:15):
Sometimes I, I, you know, I'll have people come in at the director level or something like that, which I love because those are the people that ideally are someday going to be in the C-suite, which means they can start practicing early.
And because they're leading both down and up, you know, they, they contact the most people so they can actually, you know, spread it through action.
(40:37):
So is the age thing, an openness thing, do you think that they haven't had too, too many previous lived experiences or been led down the wrong path by previous leaders?
They're just a little bit more open, perhaps some of these things.
I think that, and that they've just been more exposed to it.
You know, I think people that are a little bit older, like in leadership motions, don't belong in leadership.
(40:59):
You leave their feelings at the door, you know, put on your brave face and it's, it's just the way it was, you know, where some of these younger generations are a little more open to the fact that, yeah, we're human beings and we bring our humanness to work.
You know, that's definitely some of the pushback you do.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, that's definitely the same, the same thing I have in the soap books.
I stand on a lot.
(41:21):
I think to try and woo the naysayers and the park your emotion, tough brigade, this stuff though, has real commercial benefit, right?
I mean, the words used in your subtitle of the book, better profit, productivity, innovation, those are three of the Holy grail.
(41:42):
I think that most business leaders are crying out for today, especially today.
So how do you tangibly attach those outcomes to the work of self-empathy, Melissa?
Well, going back to that Ernst and Young article, because that's really where it began.
The very first one, which was done as a reaction to the pandemic, they actually felt that being in an empathic environment, you know, in a workplace that actually did value this and instill it, that you increased productivity by 87%.
(42:16):
I'm trying to make sure I get my numbers right.
Innovation by 86% and profit by 84%.
Wow.
And this is from Ernst and Young.
This is not me, you know, just throwing my opinion out there.
This is, you know, a big four consultancy.
So when you see stuff like that, it should make you go, oh, well, yeah.
And the interesting thing is a lot of the ways in which this affects profit and productivity and innovation is above the bottom line.
(42:44):
You're not losing people.
You'll be able to bring in innovation and efficiencies that are going to make things better before they hit your bottom line.
Yeah.
You know, your people are going to be more productive because they actually want to be there.
And was that the aim behind the book, Melissa?
Was it to try and make something that some will feel is an intangible and an innate behavior?
(43:09):
Was it an attempt to qualify it as a skill, show that it can be developed, learnt, built, but it also had, you know, tangible commercial benefits as well as human benefits to implementing it?
Yes.
That's precisely what I wanted to do.
Take it out of the and into those skills based.
(43:31):
I mean, I mean, half the stuff I talk about, I'd love to people stop thinking it's woo woo and think it and get into the practical.
I think that the interesting thing about these things, these topics, these human leadership topics, these these culture related topics is everyone's a finite time scale as to what's going to happen and when.
And the reality is that's the thing I can't give you.
(43:54):
That's the thing I can't nail on because it's often about where the organization is, where the individual is, where all the individuals in the organization are, who's waiting for who, how long things take to kind of, uh, macerate in, in, in an organization before they start.
But we know you and I know other people know the guests on this podcast knows that if you commit to these things and you're in, you're clear in your intentions and you're genuine with your intentions.
(44:23):
With all of these things that we talk about here, these have a positive effect on the people that you work with who hold the keys to performance for your organization.
It's, it's no more difficult than that, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And I mean, if you think of empathy at its best, it works in both directions.
So if you're showing this to your employees, they're going to be more apt to show you the empathy as you're trying to instill this new thing, as you're trying to create this new microcosm.
(44:53):
It is a lagging indicator.
Yeah.
I think that's why I talk about trying to connect what drives the business to what drives the people within it.
To me, that, that connection thing is, is universal here.
Oh, blimey, uh, Melissa, I have had my head exploded today.
I, I've really loved this.
Genuinely love this.
(45:14):
Uh, I do enjoy having my perspective changed and having my horizons broadened.
And you've definitely done that for me today.
That has been fantastic.
Um, I've come to the bit in the show I call sticky notes, Melissa, which is where I'm going to try and ask you to summarize, I guess, three key takeouts for people listening that they can take something tangible and practical from this self-empathy thing.
(45:42):
And we started the day talking about practical empathy.
So if you were to give three bits of advice you could fit on three little sticky notes, what would they be my friend?
So the first would be that it, you know, it takes all three kinds of empathy.
So you always want to approach this with a cool head and a warm heart, cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, self-empathy, it all goes together.
(46:07):
You know, the second thing I would say to remember is to always be critical, but not caring, right?
We're back to the cognitive empathy thing again, judgment, the second it's in there and you, and you bring in those kind of hard, hard feelings, it's not going to go well.
So you want to be critical.
You want to be able to critique, but you don't want to do it with a bunch of self-flagellation.
(46:31):
And the third one that I think is the most important is just to remember that empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space.
I love that.
Those are the words that are going to stick with me at the end of this episode.
Melissa, I have absolutely loved having you on.
Before I let you go, where can people find out more about you and where can they get hold of the book?
(46:51):
Tell us.
So you can go to my website, which is EQVIA, that's V as in Victor, IA, Empathy, and that'll have a lot of my links and that sort of thing.
You can always catch me on social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, and my book is at Amazon.
You can get it at Barnes and Noble.
You can get it at most online retailers.
(47:14):
And then there's my podcast too, which is the Empathic Leader.
Which we will put links to in the show notes for sure.
You've got a new listener out of me.
That's going to be amazing.
I'm going to look forward to that.
Melissa, thank you so much for coming on.
I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and I've loved chatting with you today.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
(47:35):
And this was fantastic, Andy.
Thank you.
I'm happy to talk to anybody who's on the empathy path.
I'm with you.
I'm so with you.
It's great.
Well, you take care.
I look forward to our next conversation.
Thank you.
Me as well.
And many thanks to your audience.
Bless you.
Okay, everyone.
Well, that was Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller.
(47:57):
And if you'd like to find out a little bit more about her or any of the topics that we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
(48:21):
If you have, please like, comment, and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Gorham, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast.
Until next time, thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, if empathy is such a vital leadership skill, why do some of us skip the most important step in looking at ourselves?
Is it because it's harder for some than others?
(01:24):
Because we're all too busy to think about it?
Or maybe it's because a fair few don't really see the value in it at all.
We often talk about empathy in terms of understanding and connecting with other people.
But my guest today, Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, believes we've got to start somewhere else, closer to home.
(01:45):
And she calls it self-empathy.
It's about understanding and connecting with yourself first, so you can show up more clearly, confidently, and consistently for others.
Now Melissa is a TEDx speaker, exec coach, host of the Empathic Leader podcast, and author of the Empathic Leader, how EQ via Empathy transforms leadership for better profit, productivity, and innovation.
(02:11):
In her work, she focuses on something she calls practical empathy, turning empathy from a nice notion into a skill you can actively develop and apply every day.
So in this episode, we're going to dig into the steps to building self-empathy, explore why it matters more than you might think, and see what the latest research reveals about empathy's impact on performance, innovation, and retention, when it's done well.
(02:43):
Welcome to the show, Melissa.
Thank you so much for having me, and I don't want to get off track, but I've got to say you have some of the best bumper music in the business.
I love it.
It's amazing what you can find in the YouTube studios.
It really is.
It's fabulous.
I'd love to think that I had some sort of rock band set up in the corner just recording for me, but maybe in a few years' time, maybe.
(03:04):
We'll see how we go.
But bless you.
What a lovely way to start.
Well, I was listening to your podcast, I'm just like, yeah, that's like that guitar sound.
And oh, yeah, let's talk.
This sounds fantastic.
Tom Clougherty It's very upbeat indeed, which I'm sure this conversation is going to be too.
Now, I've given a very small little introduction to you, Melissa, but do me a favour.
(03:28):
Before we get into the topic, which I'm desperate to do, please just give us a better introduction to you, who you are, and what you're focused on today.
So I am currently very focused on empathy, and it's because of some stuff that happened in my past life.
And I'm sure a lot of people can relate to it, being in a job or in a career where there is no empathy within an organization.
(03:53):
There is no ability for people to understand and connect.
For me, it came out of an assault.
I was a musician.
I loved what I was doing.
I mean, I loved everything about it.
But I also loved food, shelter and clothing.
And being a performing musician, sometimes those things can be a little difficult.
So I went and I got my doctorate and I went to be a professor.
(04:14):
And within my first term, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues.
And then over the next seven years, my career, which I mean, I'd worked on for decades, just unraveled, because no matter who I talked to or where I went or what I tried to do, there was zero empathy.
And it wasn't because people were evil.
It isn't because people were bad.
It's because the organization and the system had them so beaten down that they just couldn't hear it.
(04:39):
And I eventually had to leave, which was hard.
I'd been a musician my whole life.
But after that, I kind of spun for a while, and I kept trying to figure out what had happened.
What was the thing?
And at this point, my husband and I were doing some consulting, and I had been doing some other work.
And I just kept seeing these behavioral patterns repeated in these organizations.
(04:59):
And I kept kind of coming back to this idea of empathy.
That's supposed to be something that's so integral to us as humans.
And yet within these organizations, somehow we couldn't be human enough to have empathy.
So I started researching it.
And long story short, now I'm into my second doctorate, which is a little insane, but it's in empathy and leadership.
(05:20):
My dissertation is empathy and leadership, and I'm that serious about it because I believe in it that strongly.
Wow.
Well, I can feel the passion already emanating from you on this topic.
But that's a horrible experience to have.
I know I'm nothing to do with it, but I'm sorry you had to go through something like that.
But it looks like you're really turning that horrible negative experience into something good and something practical.
(05:47):
Yeah, trying to.
I call it trying to turn garbage into gold.
Because if I can help other people, if I can keep anybody from having to deal with what I dealt with, even on a small level, then I figure I've succeeded.
And we see this lack of human-to-human empathy in these organizations so often that it's a place where people can make a massive impact.
(06:12):
And it does well for the business besides because the data is there to show it does increase profit, productivity, and innovation.
So it's a win-win situation.
So why not?
Which I am fascinated to get into.
I would like to, if I may, just ask you at the very start of this so we can get everyone on the same page.
There's two phrases that I think we have looked at.
(06:34):
I'm going to get to self-empathy in a sec, but practical empathy.
Because let's define what practical empathy means from your perspective, Melissa, before we move on.
Because I reckon, even based on my own research for this particular episode, I could have gone down all sorts of different alleyways in my own interpretation of that.
(06:56):
And I don't want to start the whole show off in the wrong direction.
So when you talk about practical empathy, what are you really saying?
How do you define that?
So practical empathy for me is something that is skills-based, it is data-driven, and it is outcomes-oriented.
It isn't this soft, fluffy feeling thing, which that's how most people know empathy.
(07:17):
And that's part of empathy, but it's not all of it.
Empathy, it's this incredibly complex thing.
It spans a bunch of different subjects from psychology and neurobiology to philosophy.
One researcher actually pinned it down to 43 different kinds of empathy that fall into eight broad categories.
Yeah, it's a massive, massive subject.
(07:39):
And researchers don't agree on it necessarily.
So we're kind of in that kind of water where, of course, society isn't necessarily going to understand it because the researchers aren't necessarily pinning it down.
But for me, I think the easiest way to actually describe practical empathy is that we're out of this fuzzy feeling kind of thing, and it is skills-based.
(08:02):
The way I like to describe it is it's like having a treadmill.
You get the treadmill after Christmas, and then by New Year's, it sits in the corner, and you hang clothes on it, and the cat slips on it kind of thing.
It's great to have, but you're not going to get results if you don't use it.
Empathy is the same way.
It's great to have, but you have to actually use it in interpersonal interaction in a practical way for it to really, really have value.
(08:29):
Yeah, I think, I mean, blimey, 43 types of empathy.
I mean, that's a start of a conversation right there because I think, I mean, maybe that's part of why some people will describe this as pink and fluffy and, you know, intangible.
And if the researchers can't nail it down, well, is it really a thing?
(08:50):
But I think we've all probably experienced those situations where someone does connect with you and see something from your perspective and has a line of curiosity and support that is in line with your stance at that point or the position that you are in, and they act accordingly.
So this is going to be a fascinating conversation, I'm sure.
(09:12):
Another thing I just want to touch on, you've already used words like neurobiology, which is, I'm in now, okay, I love these things.
But I wonder when we talk about empathy, we almost fall into two buckets, right?
Those guys who get it, understand it, and do let you see it as a skill.
And others perhaps with a bit more of a fixed mindset about it are of the opinion that, well, it's just a personality trait.
(09:36):
You either have empathy or you don't.
What do you say to those folks, Melissa?
So again, this is another myth that's out there because there is some biological basis, there is some empathy that you are born with or you're not, and there are certain people that are born without it completely.
(09:56):
I mean, luckily, they're a very small percentage of the population, but we're talking dark triad, which is psychopaths, sociopaths, Machiavellians, and narcissists.
They have little or no empathy by definition.
So that's part of what they are.
So those people aside.
I think I've definitely worked with a couple of those in my career, Melissa, but yeah.
(10:18):
Yeah.
I think we all have, sadly.
But that part that you are born with or not, there's other kinds.
Like you talk about cognitive empathy, and that means I logically understand what you feel or I logically understand what you're at.
I just don't feel it.
And in business and leadership, I actually find this to be one of the biggest tools that we can use because if you're in charge of a company, right, and you're having to make big decisions, and they're not all going to be popular decisions, but you have to because the business has to run first, then you can fall into this cognitive empathy and actually being able to logic through it.
(10:57):
It's actually a very important part of it.
I believe that the three go together.
And this is what I talk about in my book, affective or emotional empathy, which is the one that I feel, what you feel, cognitive empathy or logical empathy, which is I logically get it.
I just don't necessarily feel it.
And then self-empathy, which is a whole different thing that there isn't a lot of research, like hardcore research on, which is why it fascinates me all the more.
(11:20):
Well, it fascinates me too.
And we're going to introduce people to this topic today, but I'm, my head's already spinning.
This is wonderful.
Even the three, the three types, just the way that you described the cognitive empathy, because I would, I would consider myself more of the emotional empath, if you like, you know, I'm, I guess I'm pretty well wired for that, but the way you've just described cognitive empathy, I can see examples of that with people that I've worked with, but perhaps I didn't connect with there.
(11:51):
I'm pretty sure I used that process myself at times too, without giving it a label or understanding it.
So I'm in Melissa, this is going to be fab.
So let's look at self-empathy then, the third place in your list of three.
There's a couple of things I'd like to ask.
You've just started on a sort of a mild definition.
I'd like, if you could just to explain that definition a little more deeply, the self-empathy, what that really is, what it shows up like, how do we, should we think about it?
(12:22):
And then why you think this is particularly a really interesting foundation stone for leading other people?
Sure.
Cause I think, I think it is the keystone.
I mean, I think that's, that's where you have to begin.
So we get, if we get away from this idea that empathy is feeling right, really what empathy is, is understanding and connecting.
(12:45):
And there's different ways to do that, which is why there's so many different kinds, right?
So when you think about self-empathy, really what it is, is being able to understand and connect with yourself.
Cause if you think about these people in these leadership positions, right, usually they're very driven.
They're very ambitious.
They're very high self-actualized, right?
If you think of Maslow's pyramid and the little piece at the top, you know, these are people that, that really strive.
(13:10):
And because of that, they don't necessarily take the time to understand and connect with themselves first, which means that number one, that's why you end up with higher rates of burnout.
You end up with different substance problems.
You can end up with family problems.
You end up with all sorts of issues in leadership, right?
But number two, how can you expect to be able to show this for somebody else if you don't know how to show it for yourself?
(13:34):
Charity starts at home.
It's interesting, isn't it?
The, the, the people can become, I guess, so fixated with the goal, the target, the result, everything else sort of pales in into insignificance in the background until it becomes too late and something happens as a result of those things, right?
You're talking about taking a more present attitude to understanding where you are at any given moment in time, I guess, and what's, what's driving that.
(14:03):
Okay, great.
Fabulous.
How do you think that actually shows up though in daily behavior?
What, what's, what sort of behaviors are you advocating?
So here's, here's an example, right?
A lot of times we get people in these leadership positions that get there not because they're the best leaders, because they're the best technicians, because they're the best politicians, because they've, they've done all the right steps, but it's not necessarily because they know how to lead.
(14:31):
And a lot of times, if these people actually take the time to think about it, they know this, but instead of taking the time to think about it, they'll just rush in, they'll make snap judgments, both against themselves and other people.
It'll be that this is how we do things, because this is how we've always done things without actually taking a moment to go, okay, so why are we doing this?
(14:53):
Could I lead this better?
Am I able to create a better synthesis between what I'm doing with my leadership and my people to create an environment where everybody can grow?
And what I'm finding, and you know, some of my other stuff is on, is that a lot of this comes back to judgment.
When we judge, we immediately place judgment on, you know, this is good, this is bad, this is the right way to do it, this is the wrong way to do it.
(15:20):
And under this judgment, you know, we kind of tend to suffer, honestly.
And without adding that judgment to what you're doing, self-empathy allows you to look at these behaviors and say, yeah, maybe this wasn't the best way for me to lead.
Maybe I could have done better in that meeting without yelling at people.
(15:42):
Maybe taking that heavy-handed approach when I was doing my employee reviews wasn't the best way to go.
But you're doing it without judgment, right?
Empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, period, whether it's judgment of yourself or judgment of another person.
So the second you know judgment is going on, it's not empathy.
(16:03):
And that's usually a big cue that now I need to step back, be critical, not caring of whatever it is that I feel I'm judging myself for as a leader.
You know, think about it.
Critique is good.
It helps us to grow.
It helps us to learn.
But there's a difference between critiquing and judging, where we're actually putting a value on it and saying, I'm a bad person because I did this like this, you know?
(16:27):
Okay.
That's actually quite a lot to take in, you know, especially if you come pre-wired with the notion of what empathy is and you think you understand empathy.
Because I'm not the cleverest man in the world.
We know that.
Let's get that out in the open.
Not that it needs any flagging.
(16:49):
But I'm coming to this conversation open, trying to understand, looking to understand more stuff, right?
But I'm also coming to the conversation with my own bias of what empathy means and what it feels like.
And I've already sort of said I'm definitely on the more emotional side of understanding what empathy is, seeing something from somebody else's perspective and not making, like you say, a judgment, but just trying to see something from somebody else's perspective to connect with them in that sense and understand what's going on.
(17:23):
I have just found that last bit really hard to put myself in a place where I'm properly understanding self-empathy in the way that you describe it, which is fascinating because I get what you're saying.
It's just, I've never attached empathy to that, if you like, critique or assessment or whatever that process label has.
(17:50):
I've never used the word empathy alongside it.
But it's beginning to make a bit of sense for me in that it's about an understanding and connecting to what's just happened or the thought process that's gone.
I just would never have used the word empathy.
And most people wouldn't.
Yeah.
You're not the only one.
And that's part of why we have so much, like when you said in the beginning, what do you do when people push back against this?
(18:14):
Well, they push back against this idea that empathy is all feeling and that feeling doesn't belong in organizations.
Yeah.
But empathy is so much bigger than that.
That's the thing.
It really, I mean, I understand.
I just, I said a lot in a very...
No, no, no, no, no.
It wasn't anything to do with the volume of things that you were putting across.
(18:35):
It was me being able to detach from my own personal understanding, let's put it that way, of what I believe empathy is to somebody who's studying this topic, right?
In far more detail, from far many more different perspectives than I have.
(18:57):
And I would never have attached the word empathy to that thought process.
I just think that's really, really interesting.
Really interesting.
I don't know.
There could be people listening here going, oh, get on, Andy.
Come on.
We're all there.
We've already got it.
And I'm like, hey, listen, I'm just being honest.
I'm just trying to connect to it.
No, there's a reason why people study this the way they do, because it really is.
(19:20):
We didn't even really study empathy as a topic until like 1910 or so.
Before that, it meant pity.
So, you know, this whole thing has gone through this massive evolution.
I think that's really interesting, because maybe some of the people who believe this stuff is a little bit woo-woo and doesn't have a place in business is that we've still got conflation with terms or feelings around sympathy or being self-indulgent or pity.
(19:50):
I mean, in the research that you have done clearly to write one book and continue on your second doctorate, which is crazy with the amount of work that must take, do you see that...
Not anymore.
But that's why we love you, Melissa, and that's why we're having a lovely chat.
I think, do you come across this sort of conflation in other people, still using those old definitions, beliefs that that's what it's all about?
(20:20):
Oh, definitely.
Yeah, totally.
And I mean, even within the research, you can look and see this evolution of the topic.
So even if the researchers who are supposed to be cutting edge are moving along this line, then the lay people who are following what they're saying, of course, they're going to be confused, because it is such a massive subject.
And there's been such a huge thing in the last 10 years or so, but especially since COVID, where a lot of big thinkers are like, use empathy, use empathy, use empathy, use empathy.
(20:52):
Okay, that's great.
How do I use empathy?
Well, I don't know, just go out and use it.
It's natural.
Okay, well, can you lead me in the right direction?
No, just go use it.
That doesn't help, because it makes it sound like it's something we're either born with or we're not, which again, I mean, goes back to what we were saying.
I mean, in other countries, they actually teach empathy in schools.
Really?
(21:12):
Wow.
Yeah.
Under like social emotional learning models.
That's cool.
I think that is fascinating.
Really fascinating.
I'm sitting here, the old brains whirring.
I want to go back to this thing you were talking about, where empathy and judgment can't sit in the same room.
I love that.
That's a lovely, lovely notion.
Has that got something to do with, you think, this group of leaders who perhaps might turn their back on this or pay no attention to this topic, and by then not looking inward, what do you think it is that they're missing from not putting this stuff into practice?
(21:53):
What are the gulfs that you see in all of the research and the people that you work with, Melissa?
I'm fascinated.
I see a real gulf in the steps that lead up to having self-empathy.
Okay.
This is just from what I've seen and what I've put together and that sort of thing.
(22:13):
It starts with being able to self-reflect.
A lot of times, these people are very busy, and I'm not negating that.
I mean, it's hard to be a leader.
It's like the end of the Conan movie, where they say, heavy is the head that wears the crown.
It is.
It's a lot of responsibility.
But because of that, they either can't or won't take that time to self-reflect.
(22:37):
It's hard, because you're looking at stuff you may not want to see.
But if you think of self-reflection as turning it in, how am I doing with this?
How did I end up with this situation?
How did I make people feel when I blew up in that meeting?
How did I react to that?
That self-reflection, ideally, then can turn to self-awareness, where you turn this outward.
(23:00):
How did this make everybody else feel?
What is this doing to my company?
Now, I've got two more employees leaving.
We have this attrition, which, according to the Society of Human Resource Management, takes 90% to 200% of the employees' wages to replace these people.
How have my actions affected my environment around me?
Then you can get to self-empathy and the critical not caring.
(23:22):
Okay, I see what I did.
This didn't work.
This did work.
I'm not going to put judgment on myself and call myself a horrible person, even if, in the moment, that's definitely how it was perceived, but I'm going to fix it.
I'm going to move this forward.
I'm going to show myself kindness and understanding and mercy that this maybe shouldn't have happened, but it did, and now we have to move forward.
(23:45):
Then, once you have those things in place, self-reflection, self-awareness, self-empathy, now you can start to turn that empathy outward and start to understand your people and the organization and how this all synergistically flows as a huge organism.
I'm just reflecting on something a previous guest said on a show we were talking about, psychological safety.
(24:07):
I think he gave a great example of what you've just talked about here in this reflection piece.
There was an example he gave of going through a psychological safety test with some employees, and on the results, somebody said to the boss, well, I could have told you that before.
The boss immediately reacted and said, well, why didn't you tell me?
(24:30):
The reflection on that afterwards was, hey, actually, it's not why do you tell me, it is what sort of environment have I created that means you couldn't tell me.
I think that's my interpretation of what you've just said in a practical sense, right?
Yes, exactly.
That's exactly how it plays out in the real world.
(24:50):
Yeah.
Okay.
You've now started to talk about this path to building self-empathy.
I think we're now beginning to understand that this self-empathy thing is about connection, understanding, this judgment-caring piece.
You talk about a path towards building self-empathy.
Can you walk us through that path, just picking up the various stages and just explaining how they link together and the importance of that process?
(25:22):
Yeah.
It is a process.
I tell my clients that this is, I mean, back to being a musician, that it's a practice, not a performance, because in practice, you're doing it every day.
You are working on it every day.
A performance happens one time and you're done, finished, perfect, in the can.
Practice happens every single day, all the time.
(25:43):
This is definitely a practice.
It follows those steps of starting with self-reflection, so taking the time to really stop and think about that day.
It doesn't have to be hours and hours of meditating.
It can be 30-second journal entries.
It can be what I call micro-meditations, where you stop and you stop the world for just a second.
(26:07):
You go, how did that actually go?
Did this actually go like I think it did or did it not?
This is where having someone outside of you that will tell you the truth is good.
That doesn't mean someone that's going to answer to you and tell you what you want to hear.
This means someone who's going to tell you the truth, whether it's a coach or a mentor or something like that, but having that piece in place so that you actually have a clear view of how this is happening and how it relates to you on the inside.
(26:35):
It's that adage of the pickle jar.
If you're in the pickle jar, you can't read the label on the outside of the pickle jar, so you have to have someone out there who can help you read it.
That's precisely what the self-reflection piece is.
That's the dirty work.
Moving from that to the self-awareness, now you're asking these same people, can you show me how this affected other people?
(26:57):
I saw this, this, and this.
Is that what actually happened?
I think this affected other people.
These layoffs, they had to happen for the good of the company, but maybe I could have handled the way I did it better in that meeting when I blew up.
What I wanted to do was light a fire, but I think all I did was scare everybody.
(27:21):
Am I aware of my place in this universe, or do I think maybe I'm creating this microcosm that isn't quite real?
Now that you've reflected and you're aware of how this is affecting everybody else, you can start to instill the actual self-empathy.
I now understand what happened.
I can connect to that part of myself that was judging myself for being a bad leader, so I was trying to lead other people the way I thought I should by yelling at them, by being hardcore, by pushing them just as hard as I push myself.
(27:55):
We see that a lot.
Well, that's how I was trained.
Well, that's what my leaders did.
Well, this is what I do to myself.
Well, no.
Now that I've reflected on it and I'm aware of what that is actually doing to me and why I now have a substance abuse problem, then I have the empathy to be able to start to address this to myself and the empathy for my people to say, I don't want to drive them like that.
(28:19):
This is not helping me.
This is not helping them.
This is not helping our organization.
Okay.
I am getting clearer.
Honestly, I love what you're taking me through today, so let me just try and see if I can connect to you, see if I've properly understood this, because I'm sitting here going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it now, but I really want to make sure, because this is such a departure and actually not really what I expected I was going to take from today's conversation so far, which is brilliant.
(28:53):
So, I get the self-reflection thing.
I think the thing that sort of prompted me to think about stuff when you were talking about that is when you mention words like meditation to people, I mean, that can lose an audience immediately, right?
That's when people start going, oh God, where is it?
But again, that's another word I think just gets misinterpreted.
(29:14):
I think this is just about being alone with your thoughts for a bit and seeing some things clearly.
So, I get the self-reflection thing.
And actually, when we think about this whole self-empathy thing and me not being able to connect to it initially, I think it's all been wrapped up in reflection previously in my own head.
The process that I've gone through has been wrapped up in reflection.
(29:35):
I think the self-awareness after reflection, that's great.
The clarity of what was the impact of what just happened.
For me, I've taken the impact assessment of that in that sense.
There's a real purpose to it.
And then now I kind of see the self-empathy thing around, in that instance, you talked about connecting to what I was trying to achieve, but understanding what was going on because of the impact that may have taken place instead.
(30:05):
Now, if I bring together the time I've taken to think about it, understanding the impact of what I did, and then having the self-empathy to understand what I was trying to do or why perhaps I did the thing I did, I can now take a corrective action on the back of that because I've joined all the dots, if you like.
Am I anywhere closer to understanding this stuff better now?
(30:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
The big thing is just that, as you said, it comes back to that understanding and connection.
Whether it's an understanding
and connecting of events or an understanding of yourself about why you do things the way you do
and connecting to that so you don't do it anymore, an understanding of your people and connecting so
(30:50):
that you can actually create a better organization instead of just doing the same things because this
is how we've always done them and not stopping to actually think about it, not understanding why you
do it and not connecting to the fact that this may not actually be the best course of action.
Yeah, and this really does link quite strongly to the whole development of emotional intelligence, right?
(31:12):
Moving from react to respond, I guess, making the connections between the two parts, would you say?
Yeah, totally.
In fact, in the beginning, empathy was put into the emotional intelligence basket.
This goes back to Daniel Goleman's book in 1995, and it was part of it.
(31:33):
I actually think you have to have empathy first because if you think of emotional intelligence as a basket of tools, right?
You've got chisels and saws and hammers and screwdrivers and whatever.
If you use empathy first to connect and understand, then you know when you reach into that basket if you're reaching in for a saw or a left-handed screwdriver.
(31:54):
Whereas if you don't employ empathy first, how do you know what's going to be the most effective tool to grab?
And when you talk about tools, I mean, you mentioned things like journaling, meditation, micro-meditation.
Are there other specific tools that you recommend to help try and strengthen, build this sort of self-empathy muscle that we have but perhaps don't use as often as we should?
(32:25):
I actually think the best thing you can do is have someone that you can talk to about this that will give you the straight answers.
And it doesn't matter if it's a spouse or a colleague or a coach or whatever, as long as this person understands, I've been looking at this path to be able to instill self-empathy so that I can actually employ empathy within my organization.
(32:50):
I'm building this skill.
It isn't just a fluffy woo, we're going to journal and feel better kind of thing, which has its place too, just this isn't it.
I'm sure you have client confidentiality and all that kind of stuff.
But are there any specific stories that spring to mind of people you've taken through this process who have really understood and got to grits with the self-empathy thing and seen some major changes in behavior or attitude as a result?
(33:22):
Yeah.
So I'll keep it kind of vague.
There's one in particular.
Always useful.
Yeah.
I can actually think of a couple, but I can think of one in particular because as he himself has said, he doesn't really feel he has emotional empathy.
(33:45):
He doesn't necessarily have that deep feeling, but he was really able to get a hold of the cognitive empathy side of things and start to be able to use this with his people.
But in the process, we were working him into self-empathy through the self-reflection, self-awareness, self-empathy.
In doing this, what he figured out was that he wasn't really using self-empathy or whatever, because there was too much going on with his leadership that he didn't want to see.
(34:15):
He knew that he had been damaged, I guess is maybe a good way to put it, by some of his leaders and the way that they had taught him, and he had compartmentalized this.
So of course he wasn't necessarily feeling it because it was painful.
He didn't want to think about some of the ways that he had been brought into the industry.
(34:37):
Once he was able to connect with that, then he was able to get away from the, this is how we do it because this is how I was trained, and now I'm going to train others, and now I'm going to do this to my people.
He saw results in terms of innovation right away because he was able to build that trust with his people.
They started coming to him with ideas to be more efficient right from the front lines.
(34:59):
They understood that he was listening, actually tapping into some of those emotional intelligence skills.
It's created a really good system.
He's working well with his people, and he's come a long way.
I think the people reference here is fascinating because I think I think we genuinely have a good sense of when people are being genuinely empathetic towards us and when they're being performative or pretending, and I think this is a bit of a worrying trend.
(35:31):
I tried to be a good boy, I tried to do some research, and I had a quick look at the Ernst and Young, well they have a repeated report, right, between 21 and 24, I think, where they've started to look at some of these things.
I thought there were a couple of things that were really interesting.
You will know these, but I'd love to get your view on this and how you see this playing out, but I think the two pieces that stuck out for me were 90% of workers link empathic, or sorry, empathetic leadership to higher job satisfaction, and there were clearly reported boosts in innovation, efficiency, and most importantly for me and the topic of this podcast, particularly retention.
(36:13):
However, the report, especially of late, is also citing growing concerns over this performative empathy, pretending or masking, and a complete lack of follow-through, like we'll say we're being empathetic and then nothing ever happens.
(36:34):
Do you see these things playing out, those stats living large for you?
Yes, yes, very much so, and I think that is a result of so many high-profile people talking about it, is now it's a very buzzy word, right, and people want that in their mission, vision, and values that we show empathy and, you know, that kind of thing, but people aren't stupid.
(36:56):
They can see it.
You know, if you talk one thing and walk another, they're going to know, and yet these employers wonder why they have the employee attrition they have, or why they have the generational friction, or why there's all these other problems coming up, and they never stop to reflect on the fact that, well, I'm the one talking this game, and because I'm the leader, I'm always on stage.
(37:20):
Somebody is watching.
Somebody sees what I'm doing, and when they see this difference between what I'm saying and what I'm doing, that makes me look like a hypocrite.
They can't trust me.
Trust is when words and actions align over time, and if they see my words and actions do not align over time, how are they going to trust me, but yet they don't understand why everyone's leaving.
(37:42):
That connection and awareness thing crops up again, right?
That's why I think that authentic empathy, self-empathy, to understand the impact of your actions on others, I think is fascinating because that's where I think the formative stuff falls flat, is that there's some almost ridiculous view that if I say this stuff loudly enough and with confidence and with some mouse mats and some posters, people are going to say, yeah, that's him.
(38:14):
That's what we're doing.
We're all with it, but if my actions don't kind of follow that up, then we know, but I don't understand how people fool themselves to think that they can get away with it because the employee population know it.
I mean, you mentioned values and behaviors.
I mean, this is a massive soapbox for me because I'd rather organizations didn't even talk about these things if they're not going to live and die by them because they become more divisive, right?
(38:44):
And this is the same stuff.
This is just, this is more action-based though.
This is saying, I think, and I feel, and I connect, and I understand, and I see your perspective.
Yeah, but screw that.
I'm still going to do this, this, this, this, this.
It just doesn't match up, right?
It just doesn't match up.
Are you, are you seeing, I mean, it's such a new, it's such a, well, to me at least, it's such a new concept, this self-empathy thing.
(39:09):
Are you seeing more and more leaders become aware of this, this stuff and wanting to do something about it?
And, and I don't even know if this is a self-fulfilling question or not.
The people that come to you, what end of the scale are they on?
Are they on the, I love this, I know this, I'd like to get better at it, or are they like, I am a psycho, I need, I need help?
(39:33):
I mean, what goes on?
You know, it's, they kind of fall into two groups.
Either there's the ones that are in so much trouble, the psychos, that they're like, I got to do something or my board's kicking me out.
I need you to implement this.
And it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not how this works.
You know, I'm happy to help you with this.
(39:54):
I'm happy to help you learn it, but I can't do this for you.
You have to do it.
And then there's the other ones that are more like, you know, I kind of have a hold on this.
I kind of have an idea what this is.
And I understand that this could help, but I don't understand exactly how.
Can you help me get a hold of this so that I can actually implement it?
And they tend to be a little bit younger.
(40:15):
Sometimes I, I, you know, I'll have people come in at the director level or something like that, which I love because those are the people that ideally are someday going to be in the C-suite, which means they can start practicing early.
And because they're leading both down and up, you know, they, they contact the most people so they can actually, you know, spread it through action.
(40:37):
So is the age thing, an openness thing, do you think that they haven't had too, too many previous lived experiences or been led down the wrong path by previous leaders?
They're just a little bit more open, perhaps some of these things.
I think that, and that they've just been more exposed to it.
You know, I think people that are a little bit older, like in leadership motions, don't belong in leadership.
(40:59):
You leave their feelings at the door, you know, put on your brave face and it's, it's just the way it was, you know, where some of these younger generations are a little more open to the fact that, yeah, we're human beings and we bring our humanness to work.
You know, that's definitely some of the pushback you do.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, that's definitely the same, the same thing I have in the soap books.
I stand on a lot.
(41:21):
I think to try and woo the naysayers and the park your emotion, tough brigade, this stuff though, has real commercial benefit, right?
I mean, the words used in your subtitle of the book, better profit, productivity, innovation, those are three of the Holy grail.
(41:42):
I think that most business leaders are crying out for today, especially today.
So how do you tangibly attach those outcomes to the work of self-empathy, Melissa?
Well, going back to that Ernst and Young article, because that's really where it began.
The very first one, which was done as a reaction to the pandemic, they actually felt that being in an empathic environment, you know, in a workplace that actually did value this and instill it, that you increased productivity by 87%.
(42:16):
I'm trying to make sure I get my numbers right.
Innovation by 86% and profit by 84%.
Wow.
And this is from Ernst and Young.
This is not me, you know, just throwing my opinion out there.
This is, you know, a big four consultancy.
So when you see stuff like that, it should make you go, oh, well, yeah.
And the interesting thing is a lot of the ways in which this affects profit and productivity and innovation is above the bottom line.
(42:44):
You're not losing people.
You'll be able to bring in innovation and efficiencies that are going to make things better before they hit your bottom line.
Yeah.
You know, your people are going to be more productive because they actually want to be there.
And was that the aim behind the book, Melissa?
Was it to try and make something that some will feel is an intangible and an innate behavior?
(43:09):
Was it an attempt to qualify it as a skill, show that it can be developed, learnt, built, but it also had, you know, tangible commercial benefits as well as human benefits to implementing it?
Yes.
That's precisely what I wanted to do.
Take it out of the and into those skills based.
(43:31):
I mean, I mean, half the stuff I talk about, I'd love to people stop thinking it's woo woo and think it and get into the practical.
I think that the interesting thing about these things, these topics, these human leadership topics, these these culture related topics is everyone's a finite time scale as to what's going to happen and when.
And the reality is that's the thing I can't give you.
(43:54):
That's the thing I can't nail on because it's often about where the organization is, where the individual is, where all the individuals in the organization are, who's waiting for who, how long things take to kind of, uh, macerate in, in, in an organization before they start.
But we know you and I know other people know the guests on this podcast knows that if you commit to these things and you're in, you're clear in your intentions and you're genuine with your intentions.
(44:23):
With all of these things that we talk about here, these have a positive effect on the people that you work with who hold the keys to performance for your organization.
It's, it's no more difficult than that, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And I mean, if you think of empathy at its best, it works in both directions.
So if you're showing this to your employees, they're going to be more apt to show you the empathy as you're trying to instill this new thing, as you're trying to create this new microcosm.
(44:53):
It is a lagging indicator.
Yeah.
I think that's why I talk about trying to connect what drives the business to what drives the people within it.
To me, that, that connection thing is, is universal here.
Oh, blimey, uh, Melissa, I have had my head exploded today.
I, I've really loved this.
Genuinely love this.
(45:14):
Uh, I do enjoy having my perspective changed and having my horizons broadened.
And you've definitely done that for me today.
That has been fantastic.
Um, I've come to the bit in the show I call sticky notes, Melissa, which is where I'm going to try and ask you to summarize, I guess, three key takeouts for people listening that they can take something tangible and practical from this self-empathy thing.
(45:42):
And we started the day talking about practical empathy.
So if you were to give three bits of advice you could fit on three little sticky notes, what would they be my friend?
So the first would be that it, you know, it takes all three kinds of empathy.
So you always want to approach this with a cool head and a warm heart, cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, self-empathy, it all goes together.
(46:07):
You know, the second thing I would say to remember is to always be critical, but not caring, right?
We're back to the cognitive empathy thing again, judgment, the second it's in there and you, and you bring in those kind of hard, hard feelings, it's not going to go well.
So you want to be critical.
You want to be able to critique, but you don't want to do it with a bunch of self-flagellation.
(46:31):
And the third one that I think is the most important is just to remember that empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space.
I love that.
Those are the words that are going to stick with me at the end of this episode.
Melissa, I have absolutely loved having you on.
Before I let you go, where can people find out more about you and where can they get hold of the book?
(46:51):
Tell us.
So you can go to my website, which is EQVIA, that's V as in Victor, IA, Empathy, and that'll have a lot of my links and that sort of thing.
You can always catch me on social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, and my book is at Amazon.
You can get it at Barnes and Noble.
You can get it at most online retailers.
(47:14):
And then there's my podcast too, which is the Empathic Leader.
Which we will put links to in the show notes for sure.
You've got a new listener out of me.
That's going to be amazing.
I'm going to look forward to that.
Melissa, thank you so much for coming on.
I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and I've loved chatting with you today.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
(47:35):
And this was fantastic, Andy.
Thank you.
I'm happy to talk to anybody who's on the empathy path.
I'm with you.
I'm so with you.
It's great.
Well, you take care.
I look forward to our next conversation.
Thank you.
Me as well.
And many thanks to your audience.
Bless you.
Okay, everyone.
Well, that was Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller.
(47:57):
And if you'd like to find out a little bit more about her or any of the topics that we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
(48:21):
If you have, please like, comment, and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Gorham, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast.
Until next time, thanks for listening.
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