🐉J.F. Bierlein on Poetry, Myth, and Metaphor -www.gettherapybirmingham.com

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Music]
thank you
well I'll go we'll just go ahead and uh
start where I can introduce you and um
so I'm here with JF bear Lane am I
saying that correctly close enough and
normally I kind of maybe over prepare

(00:21):
for these but it's been such a crazy
week I've rescheduled three times and I
don't have a ton of structure to the
interview but I think the themes are
going to be mythology and poetry
um because you're a scholar and a poet
and a Gentleman anything else
oh golly uh you're too generous

(00:41):
it's fun because I just want to give a
little background Joel was very kind and
he's when he uh contacted me said you
know I read your books when I was a kid
which made me feel ancient of course and
really enjoyed them and it's so funny
because I always spend time discussing
my books and you know I wrote them 30
years ago

(01:02):
and this is my OCD site where I say I
found the following errors in them and
it's really funny because I got some uh
contact back from people saying you know
great book but this was wrong and I
would write back and say you're
absolutely right and the three examples
I give are I was a little excited

(01:22):
because the city of Mars Pennsylvania
it's named after the Roman god no if you
have a man named Mars uh maybe he was
named after the Roman god yeah it might
be and then the other one I thought was
pretty funny was London the city of
London I don't know where I got this
from oh it was named after these the
Celtic god Luke and about eight people
said all from Britain of course said

(01:44):
where did you get that crazy idea so
that was another one it's londonium
isn't it isn't it yeah
but but yes and then the third one which
is what the one I I blushed when I admit
to is
hetero in Greek of means other right but
means a courtesan and so terrorism I had

(02:08):
read it in a different way and what I
was saying was the period of hittirism
was believed the period of
life analogous to the courtesans and I
missed that completely right over my I
passed my vision but I cannot start an
interview without you know confessing
those three mistakes and somebody else
if you feel that way then the rest of

(02:29):
your book must be pretty good and I said
well I hope so you know
but I think you know it's always normal
to make mistakes when you're compiling
anything that's the size of a book but
also you know
um it's gonna be in anything
um but I think what made your books
better is that they're not strictly
academic they're about very intelligent

(02:50):
Concepts but they're not pretentious and
there isn't that not not even pretension
but there's an academic type of writing
where you can tell that someone is used
to somebody behind them being like oh
you didn't cite your Source how do you
know that emotion comes from uh you know
you know you're like okay just sit with
the metaphor for a minute man like I'm
not trying you know and then you can
tell that there's some people that when

(03:10):
they're writing they're trying to
qualify everything and lay out these
terms and Define what the terms mean and
explain why they're there before they
tell it say anything and it makes the
books kind of a miserable read you know
like academic writing has its purpose
but the purpose is research it's it's
not well you know it's funny you should
say that because I all of my all of the
myths I cite in my books I always have

(03:32):
you know references in the back of the
book so if someone wants to know they
can look but what I've found most useful
is and this is a result of exactly what
you're talking about
reading works thing you know
a lot of people I talk to say well you
just tell me what the heck this myth is
says what is the story here what is the
narrative
and you know I found that that people

(03:54):
got more out of it and then what's
really interesting is they asked more
important questions and by important
questions I mean not just about the
meaning of the myth but how the myth
informs their sense of meaning
and that I thought was a much better
approach than being too dry and academic
uh and because that's kind of where I

(04:16):
was trying to take people you know that
from reading my books but you know to
contemplate and uh
what was it the Chinese philosopher
Moses used to say that you know you
can't learn anything without
self-reflection well when you read a
myth it's got to be like how does this
affect me what does it Sense on my
meaning and I that's kind of where I was

(04:37):
coming from so
well I I plagiarize some of it I think
in like sixth grade uh for a sermon
because it was like a youth Sunday or
whatever and you have to give the sermon
at the Episcopal church and um was doing
something about sitting in the imagery
of the Bible or sitting in the imagery
of the story and he had a chapter about
water and you know water showing up in
myths and all these facts about water

(04:59):
and I remember you know copying and
pasting a lot of lines from that into
them
so it's your words have come from the
pulpit too well the statute of
limitations is up so I'm not going to
bother you
I didn't make any money off the circuits
no there you go that's the whole thing
but it's pretty funny though when I hear
people have quoted me and so on the most
a couple of really funny things before I

(05:21):
get into some other my later work doing
what I've been doing a couple of great
funny stories to tell is I'm more
popular in Brazil than I'm in the United
States and I find this is totally funny
because they sold the Portuguese rights
and I speak and read Portuguese so I got
to read the manuscript which is pretty
cool and make my little you know notes

(05:42):
and so on and uh
I started getting calls for interviews
with with uh
outlets in Brazil and was funny was and
they they knew I spoke Portuguese so it
was really funny and at one point I
think it was my sales in Brazil were
higher than they were in the United
States and Canada it happens it happens

(06:04):
you hit the zig east of some other
country like uh the Japan a lot of times
something will blow up there you know 10
years later or something I think it's
Brazil it's some South American country
but there was this show that was like on
apt just Alabama public television when
I was a kid and it was like a weirder
version of Bill Nye the Science Guy It's
called beekman's world so there'd be a
guy that was like in a rat costume and

(06:25):
they would do science experiments like
real wacky so for some reason that is
still you know no one even remembers it
here for some reason it's like huge and
this South American country it's like
still on TV being rerun and the guy like
went to live there because he's
basically a celebrity
but it's a show to teach kids science
it's weird but it you know it spoke to

(06:47):
Something in the culture oh very strange
I love stuff like that though that is
fun but yeah go ahead sir please well I
guess just so for the listeners to
introduce you
um you know we've been wanting to talk
for a while so um we'll probably want to
qualify so other people can understand
the conversation you know I'm a
therapist now I write a lot about myth

(07:07):
and psychology and the fusion of those
things and religion and Union
um a lot of that I think you know I was
born in 87 but I think it was still in
the water from the 70s the Joseph
Campbell stuff and
um I so I read a lot of like Science
Fiction and Fantasy but I didn't really
read a lot of nonfiction and then it was

(07:27):
in fifth or sixth grade and a friend of
our family gave me like a gift
certificate to the bookstore so I went
and picked your book out because I
opened it to the story of the Hindu
um Pantheon where um I don't have the
book on me but one of the
one somebody goes to talk to the God and
he's like how many gods are there and
they're like well there's 130 and he's

(07:47):
like yeah but really how many are they
and they're like well they share an
aspect there's really 50 and he's like
no but really how many are there and
he's like well there's three it's like
well how many are there and it's like
okay fine you got me it's really I'm in
all of them like there's really just one
you know and it was like and I started
thinking about the way that religion
there's a universalness to it but then
there's also something that's very like

(08:08):
culturally unique and then it's this
people are talking about
basically their life and their existence
in a unique voice but they're all
describing the same thing even though I
don't really like the comparative
religion Trope that all religions are
the same I don't think that's true and
it was like just open this door of like
what comparative religion was and all
this stuff and I started getting into

(08:29):
that and I read about mythology and all
these things forever and people would
always be like well Joel likes history
so he's reading these stories and it's
like it's not history it's psychology
you know like
um
and but it was no one really got that
and it really opened the door so um it's
exciting to talk to you now and and see
uh so what brought you to wanting to
write about mythology and doing those

(08:51):
books we we have them in our
professional library at work and we let
patients and uh clinicians borrow them I
tried to grab both of them and they were
both checked out so hopefully we'll get
them back
um
so I
wow but that's a great introduction uh
I I've always been a person who loved to
read stories I was kind of uh I guess

(09:13):
would say introverted introspective kid
and I remember one time my parents uh I
think they wanted to shut me up so they
say let's give this kid a book and he'll
leave us alone and the book was a
mythology book
and I got into and that's probably about
I would say 10 or 11. and it was a

(09:34):
mythology for children and it was Greek
and Roman mythology and some Norse and
uh then they I said this is really good
stuff you know my grandparents then said
oh that's my grandparents said oh this
is the birth of an intellectual
experience for this child so they
decided that they would festoon me with
books which all which I read

(09:54):
and then when I was in college taking a
course I had a wonderful professor and
this guy and I I'll give a shout out to
the lake theater Ludwig
and this guy and I could talk for hours
about mythology and he was a fascinating
guy he was a Lutheran pastor and uh
Theologian and a scholar of Mythology

(10:16):
and all these things and he said you
know what you need to do you go you need
to get a copy of the golden Bow by
Frasier and don't sit on the beach
sometime just read and I did that
and then it was the whole Obsession I
had with how what are the common things
that make us tick
all human beings have stuff that make

(10:37):
them tick and mythology
kind of was a record of that search for
meaning and What Makes Us tick and a
reflection of it at the same time that
makes some sense
and so I thought that was really
interesting and so I just continued to
read and everything else in my my
addiction to languages and it also

(11:00):
helped me out because I was able to then
look at some you know even some primary
sources with three dictionaries and a
magnifying glass
clever uh how many languages do you
speak you were speaking like in three or
four different languages when we were on
the phone telling a story about going to
South America but how many languages are
you fluent in enough uh you know I'm

(11:20):
picking up English pretty well uh but
actually my latest thing is is Turkish I
really enjoy it it's not in New York and
we've made space trips to Turkey I have
I'm gonna give a shout out to my
wonderful Turkish teacher in Istanbul
and uh
and you know and you can watch all this

(11:41):
great turkey soap operas understand them
now without subtitles which which is
great and by the way you want to talk
about archives okay I'm gonna tell you
why not an archetype is I will use
Turkish drama as a way to explain what
archetypes are
every Turkish drama has the kindly and
innocent uh young lady who is being

(12:03):
abused by a wrathful father and or
mother
then there's always the sweet old lady
who's the cleaning woman but knows all
of their dirty secrets and then there's
always the dashing but poor young man
who's the hero and there's always some
vile vile Rich spoiled brat kid and his
rotten parents and Disney movie oh it's

(12:26):
it is it's like you know Hallmark all
that stuff what's so funny is if you
know someone were to ask me what is an
archetype I'd say watch a Turkish drama
actually probably any soap opera
and you find the same type of characters
and I said really that is what goes on
in myth you've got very much this these
archetypes and where do they come from
well young tells us that their images in

(12:47):
our Collective unconscious
uh but it's they occur everywhere
they're fascinating because they occur
in every culture and that was another
thing that fascinated me in reading the
myths that they you know some of the
plots even I think one of them one of my
books I say there's a Blackfoot American
Indian story that matches to an Egyptian

(13:08):
Story I mean that matched to a Bible
story but the Bible story if the story
yeah they were neighbors right but the
Blackfoot or out in the middle of the uh
North America
and it's just all of the material is
there and Libby Strauss and
structuralists they they love that stuff
but but I always felt that it's a sense

(13:29):
of meaning is what that's about that we
all human beings you know we're in this
time now where people are all tribal and
they don't necessarily they're still
fighting about myths you know they're
fine
yeah common myths and they don't see the
commonality of other people's myths or
the commonality of other people

(13:51):
and you know this creates strife and all
stuff and I of course you know as as you
do we try to lessen others suffering and
try to make life a little better for
people and that's one of the things I
think you can do through the study of
myth is you start saying ah
I am I have cultural differences but the
me what makes me tick is a lot like

(14:12):
every other person out there in this
world
will change how I view and treat other
people
well it's interesting with the the doing
a podcast that's kind of rooted in
brain-based medicine and depth
psychology is like the jungian stuff in
the deaf psychology like it informs
everything so it's like we talk to
musicians and Architects and urban

(14:34):
planners a guy reached out after our
urban planner documentary and he was
like or after our urban planning
interview with Andre strawny somebody
sent me their manuscript that now is
getting published which is I'm proud of
him maybe he'll be on here one day but
he had written a book about using Jung
and mysticism to do urban planning like
how to find the archetypes of the way
that people want to interact with the
design space so it's oh and yeah all

(14:56):
this there's a lot of things in in
unionism that are just everyday life you
just say aha that's it I'm not going to
get into a long discussion but I mean
that is archetypalism but also animus
anima the shadow all these things you
see manifested and and you more than I
am sure but you see it manifested all
over the place
and they kind of help you navigate a

(15:18):
little bit because I feel what's a lens
that lets you understand yourself and
other people in a way that is gentler I
think
and you can navigate life better yeah
you know navigate with that sense of
meaning that I think everything boils
down to
when so you started reading mythology as
a kid did you ever get into psychology

(15:40):
or you stayed method what did your
academic or what did your track look
like as a as a professional enough I
really don't want to go into it okay
thank you so much because now I'm
working in a consulting firm we uh
manage uh contracts for companies to
visit with the federal government but it
went into Political Science and
economics
and I was teaching as an adjunct in the

(16:02):
Washington semester program at American
University and I just tell people my
night job was mythology that I you know
I read and did so many things and I've
had a couple of people who are true
Scholars which I didn't claim to be in
the field contact me and they said you
know we like your book or we're
interested in your ideas so on I said
well I'm going to tell you I I don't

(16:24):
have pretension to be you know a great
deep scholar of the topic I would say
rather I'm a really really interested
amateur and I'm a really very uh
emotionally engaged reader of Mythology
and one of the people I talked to uh
actually it was a uh chair of the

(16:44):
religions at a university said to me
yeah but you know what you're talking
about now that was pretty funny it kind
of made my day
so yeah that was my trajectory my
trajectory wasn't the usual and as far
as psychology goes I don't think you can
study mythology without bumping against
psychology every step of the way you

(17:04):
know I think
uh and a sense of meaning I I'm you know
you hear me say it over and over again
but I think that so much is important
about human beings having a sense of
meaning and navigating their ways
through life I think that's the issue
and I think a lot of things that used to
give us a sense of meaning and hope are

(17:25):
going away in the world you know even
the younger Generations you know there's
polls and they don't even think the
planet will be around for their kids in
the same capacity that it is now or the
the economic the economic system will
allow them to have any their kids have
any kind of semblance of life like we
have and not saying that's true or false
you know but that
that's a belief you know that people who

(17:45):
grew up with an iPhone you know think
before they're you know 13 they are
already sitting with this pretty dark
existential stuff and when you see that
in therapy it's like the generational
difference used to be 10 years apart now
it's like when I see somebody 25 and
somebody 19 the difference is vast you

(18:05):
know the way that they see the world
I agree with you and I also find
fascinating all this you know the
fastenings with apocalyptic stuff like
zombie stuff and all that and you know
and I've had conversations very
intelligent rational people who said you
know uh zombie apocalypse is strange and

(18:26):
probably is very obviously fiction but
that type of apocalyptic thing
is not so crazy and they really think
that and then when covid came out I
remember a number of people's younger
people especially saying to me well you
know this is quite imitating art we've
had all these movies like outbreak and
all this stuff and and here we are with

(18:47):
this and you know is there going well
that whole year was like uh you know
political catastrophe and plague and
fires and yeah
famine like it was just like the
biblical yeah it was my comment always
when did locusts show up you know yeah
but yeah but I mean but you talked I'm

(19:07):
still an optimist but I'm old you know
but I also think that you know one thing
when you get old is you've you've
survived so many train wrecks that you
say I wouldn't worry about this too much
but uh well I think it's a combination
of things are probably not sustainable
there is going to be a change at some
point and kids just have access to
information where they were able to ask

(19:29):
that question at six to Google whereas
most people get to college and they're
like what if nothing means anything you
know that's the first time they
encounter this year if anything is you
know in their 20s and now
kids are sitting with that stuff at five
which is did you probably yes it
deprived of the uh pleasure of ignorance
that others have enjoyed and as I say

(19:50):
when you talk to a seven-year-old who
sounds like chopinara that's very very
sobering
well so you you did you
um ever study young or do any Union
psychology or were you just kind of
interested in methods actually yeah Mr
prolific reader yes well also the other

(20:12):
thing too is uh
actually had a group of friends who
Union reading group and this is oh wow
almost 40 years ago
and that was really interesting and I
read German so I was another reason to
read young and and unlike Freud young is
readable in German uh bright hurts my

(20:33):
brain when I read try reading him in
German but young I can get through
pretty easily and
and it's interesting because
I like when he discusses his trips like
his trips among the American Indians and
describes uh his experiences with them
and so forth and how their mythology
informs their sense of meaning and how

(20:54):
they navigate through life and and I
think that that's something that I'm
still obsessed with and my poetry you
know reflects that as well but uh
I always feel like life is hard enough
you know
why and I'm sure you feel the same way
if you can somehow help people navigate
through life you're making your own life

(21:16):
meaningful
yeah I mean I love the job that I have
now just being able to sit with patients
I don't like the the business part is
kind of a means to an end just to make
sure other people can work and we can
build a clinic but I don't live for that
I live for just sit in a room with
people and um helping them make meaning
even when you can't make meaning
something yeah that's true the work

(21:37):
always interrupted my gardening poetry
writing it's just a shame and winemaking
I was not interrupted you know you make
wine yeah of course and uh I gotta do
that that's good for your
you got we live in Texas and we have
grapes I mean what's wrong with you know
it's all good I am
so yeah I mean it's but it is I've

(21:58):
always felt uh
most useful thing we can do is help
other people navigate through life and
so this way I would put it in and
mythology is bait is built to help
people navigate through life I mean my
second it's an attempt to make meaning
you know yeah my second book living
myths like each stage of your life as as
a myth that this got a myth of some

(22:21):
culture or many cultures that help you
to navigate that phase of your life
so well and I think I know you've read
them um but just for the listeners in
case anyone's not familiar the eliada
marchea did sacred of the buffet which
is a pretty early book about um
study of Religion and mythology
one of the things he did was uh you know

(22:42):
he would find these Aboriginal tribes
that had a stick and the whole history
of the tribe is written on the stick and
then the stick is the tent pole of your
tent and and then in the morning it
falls in a direction and you go where
the stick tells you to go yeah and the
great world axis that's what yeah and
it's so well so that's what was making
their meaning you know and if the stick

(23:03):
pointed to a river real great the stick
wanted to have water thank you stick if
it goes to a mountain oh it's a Holy
Mountain thank you I appreciate it and
he would talk to the tribes where the
stick would have been lost in a flood or
stolen by an enemy or something and the
people would just wander and die like
they had no ability to make meaning out
of without a stick and how many and how
many Primal people do we encounter right

(23:23):
yeah yeah I think that's the problem is
we've we've lost our stick or we're
fighting about which stick the sticks
say to go different directions but I
mean that's the Primal myth is it's just
this is order and this is chaos and
somebody goes from order into chaos and
then turns the chaos into order you know
that's the Primal myth and you know you
can get into all the archetypes that
make that process more complicated but

(23:45):
that's all it is that's what psychology
is it's what religion is and it's what
myth is why look at and look at Hindu
mythology too right it's like
you know things are going to be created
they're going to Decay and they're going
to be destroyed that you can't get
around it but it'll happen again and
again and again and I always tell people
I say you know is that's a very uh

(24:06):
pessimistic World USA is it really not
really not really it's a realistic point
of view that you know I've been reading
and that everything is a dream that the
you know the Vishnu is dreaming
everything into existence but eventually
I mean they'll just be gone we're just
we're just well yeah these are the
Chinese philosophers Juan Zee

(24:26):
butterfly
and Martin Heidegger thought this was
the coolest thing ever okay I mean he
thought this was very exciting and which
zwangzi said I woke up from a dream
where I was a butterfly and I was you

(24:48):
know flitting about from flower to
flower and getting nectar and all this
happy stuff
and then I woke up and I was wrong Z
again and he said you know
am I a butterfly that dreams about Juan
Zee or my Juan Zee who dreams about
being a butterfly
and I just love that story and then he
said yeah he said you know

(25:10):
it was fun being a butterfly you know
and I I just like the way he said that
though it's like oh you know and Martin
heiger thought that was a great story he
was a big fan of that story well it's
probably challenging to some of
Heidegger's stuff too because he was all
that language is the house of being and
you know you're traveling cognition so
if you're a butterfly and you don't have
language and you still exist what are
you you know ready

(25:34):
yeah he was he's a happy guy yeah it's
been a long time since my Heidegger
classes at Swami yeah being in time is
not a fun read in English
anyway this sounds so awful in German
anyway uh actually I'm a great fan
though Carl Jasper snacker because he

(25:56):
was a great fan of myth and he was the
man who came up with the idea of the
axial age and all these religious great
religious thinkers emerged around the
world
uh somewhat simultaneously and you know
some I think did inform each other and
someday not but
he's the great one for for saying you

(26:18):
know he never took a young impact but he
was a great one though for saying that
you know
it's all about meaning
people have got like you said about this
virtual reality listing it's all about
meaning everything everybody wants to do
is about finding meaning
and navigating life
and that uh

(26:39):
you can tell people what to expect in
life but until they experience it
they don't know how to navigate it
that's very our order making I mean I
think part of the contradiction of human
nature is our order making principle in
our ego that is the organizing principle
of the psyche is what stops us from
making meaning because we cling to it

(26:59):
and too rigidly and so we have to
dissolve it and then go under the ego
and under language even into the body
and the emotional and the transcendental
space and that is how we come back from
The Descent you know like Campbell says
in the here is Jeremy or Jung says with
the shadow two we come back with a
greater meaning from that but we can't
quite take all of the information from

(27:21):
that place with us you know
its view that yeah the whole process of
life is finally God behind God in other
words what you think of as God is going
to be shattered by what God is in
reality to you in the next phase and I
was like that that thought that Tilly
had about that because it doesn't stop

(27:42):
that the reality of God continues to
unfold as you as you know it unless you
correct right and it's the recipient of
self as well uh well I think that's the
problem with a lot of different models
of psychology is that they're perfectly
fine if you're here you know so if
you're like coming out of recovery or if
you're 21 and you're you broke up with
your boyfriend for the first time in
college or if this you know they're
they're fine with helping you with that

(28:03):
but you know 10 20 years of cognitive
behavioral therapy I you know I can't
imagine you'd be doing the same thing no
um like what is it Urban yolom's the
existential philosophy or the
existential psychologist and he would
always kind of poke fun at the cognitive
people that um don't really do anything
other than uh ego management strategies
which are which is fine you know but it

(28:23):
was always like I mean when CBT
therapists gets sick why don't they come
see me why don't they go to another CBD
therapist if it's so great
[Laughter]
and it's a script you know you're you're
if the client says this then you say
this is manualizable and because it's
manualizable you already know how it
works so there's no point going to see
one and then there's a lot of people too

(28:44):
who say they do CBT
um but then when you sit with them in
therapy or you work with them they're
really doing more of an attachment
existential thing you know they've
figured out you know so a physician heal
thyself yeah
oh that's great yeah so all these
metaphors for mythology I mean it's that
I think that's one of the biggest things

(29:05):
is it can kind of take part of
psychology the thing that is challenging
is you got to take people outside of
their experience to make them kind of
doubt their assumptions but that is
threatening so you have to do that in a
way that doesn't make somebody defensive
and mythology is a great way to do that
because you're taking somebody and
you're being like hey this is what's
going on with you but you're not saying
that you're being like you know there
was this Centaur Chiron and he could

(29:25):
heal everybody
but he had this wound that he couldn't
heal but I think the reason that he
could heal everyone is because he was in
such pain and then the person's like oh
holy [ __ ] that's me oh my God you know
and Chiron was the send Tower of
attention he was a what the send Tower
of attention
oh what do you mean there the center of
attention I was trying to make okay okay

(29:47):
gotcha yeah when you have to mean a joke
it's not that good a joke my the audio
kind of dipped for a minute and I
thought I was dismissed I thought the
noise canceling was mushing me you know
what's really interesting is when I talk
to young people especially and they
talking about Game of Thrones I just
kind of said Thank grin because hey I

(30:08):
can give you Games of Thrones uh
mythology from here till you know I
think won't have it right because it's
so much of so much of uh and I really
what Martin wrote in Game of Thrones is
really brilliant but it's all very
mythologically based and all of the
themes and archetypes and even episodes
are mythologically based and why does

(30:30):
that resonate well you and I know why it
resonates because
this is their own human journey and you
know if they're seeing things uh seeing
conflict and seeing issues that that
made me not play obviously in the
Warriors stance of their daily life but
they play in their daily life all of

(30:51):
those things you know betrayal and
royalty and victory and defeat and
failure and success and ambition and not
realizing that you're the bad guy yeah
exactly being identifying with your own
victimhood and suffering that you don't
realize that you're victimizing others
you know yes and scuttling yourself you
know and that's what I always think is
really interesting is you know uh

(31:11):
telling a person the most painful things
you have to tell the other human being
is you know what you're doing is
cuddling yourself
but it's true and it's it's a great
theme in the mythology in mythology that
you know the hero is just blindly
rushing ahead and his vulnerability is
obvious to all of us watching him
but everyone but him and then you say

(31:32):
you know that it speaks to the human
tendency to be not introspective enough
to see where you're going to Scuttle
yourself
you know it was very interesting I mean
what you mean by Scuttle there for the
listening oh I'm sorry like he's got a
little [ __ ] I give you a positive sink
you know uh I'm sorry I didn't I'm I'm

(31:55):
used to that term thank you yeah let's
just make sure everyone can understand I
mean we feel like the enemy is out here
but really the thing is defeating us is
inside you trip yourself that's right
you trip yourself you defeat I I don't
want to use the word defeat yourself
because that's a little bit too too
final yeah but you you trip yourself you
uh you you you set yourself back through

(32:18):
choices you've made that you are not
seeing the fact that those choices will
set you back
have you ever read Neil Gaiman you ever
read him oh yeah yeah I read a lot of
Neil Gaiman in high school right behind
me on the shelves you'll see much Neil
Gaiman what I always felt like he was a
more interesting thinker than a writer
like his writing is kind of in service
of the idea not the idea and service the

(32:40):
writing which I like I like stuff I get
really bored when it's like people will
probably be up in arms but like
something like Lolita like I just I have
a hard time going through because it's
so well done but it's just kind of this
character thing and you're reinforcing
the theme and like I want Super Rich you
know density of ideas and the things and
and gaiman's not the best writer at

(33:00):
least he wasn't
um with the American Godzilla he was
kind of shifting from Comics to that but
ocean at the end of the lane I really
think it's like a perfect book it's like
that's the book he was trying to write
for 10 years so funny and I I've always
thought of him as a great narrator they
use it he was a narrative guy yeah you
know he's a structured guy yeah

(33:21):
structure what I mean
that how would I put it
who would you rather have at the coffee
pot him or Vladimir nabukovs the guy who
wrote Lolita I would play a game at any
day because I think he is
he's very astute
he is very attuned and intuitive

(33:45):
to human beings that would make them
tick and that's why I always liked him I
was like Robert Graves for that reason
because yeah he was very good at saying
you know
here's what had happened that myth now
what does that make you think about
they remind you of it was he doesn't say
there's so many words but he leads you
that point like well now what does that

(34:05):
remind you of and I love that because
it's like somebody said to me why in the
heck are you reading mythology that
stuff is dead that sounds old it's like
oh here let's open a mess
let's read it who does that remind you
of does that ring a bell and it always
does
what and in the an ocean in the end of

(34:26):
the lane kind of what we were talking
about the making order out of chaos so
that well psychologists this descent to
let go of what we think we are to become
what we really are and accept change and
all that and there there's like a
metaphor towards the end of that book
where the narrator's talking about going
into the ocean and they're like as they
are dissolving in the ocean they're like
I am able to understand how everything

(34:49):
works I'm able to see from all
perspectives I'm able to understand I
see everything so clearly but that can't
fit into a person and if you stay there
you become nothing you've done
everything that you become nothing
because that's exactly it dissolve you
know and look at the Bhagavad guitar
with Arjuna and Christians conversation
it's like if you do what you think

(35:09):
you're supposed to do you're going to be
doing exactly the wrong thing and if you
do what you're supposed to do it's going
to break your heart and I always thought
that was just the most brilliant
analysis of human life right
well and and um the bhagavad-gita the my
that's one of my favorite lines is that
behold I have become time even without
your sword all these whoa you're turning

(35:31):
to dust and die yeah he's trying he's
the the book If anyone it's a it's a
Hindu religious book but
um vision is trying to convince a prince
to go into a battle and fight and the
prince is trying to Naval gaze and not
do it
I meant to kill my relatives that's yeah
he's trying to avoid you know this

(35:51):
complicated decision and he says you
know well look I've become time even
without your sword all these people will
turn to dust and die even if you do
nothing yeah and the other thing I I
always like that too is Arjuna is the uh
for the audience's perspective in this
story it's part of a greater thing
called the maravata
which is a Hindu epic and it's the

(36:12):
segment of where Arjuna The Chariot here
is about to go into battle against his
cousins
and it's the epic battle of Good and
Evil but some are good and some are evil
and some are a little bit more good than
the evil there's a little bit more going
on there and uh
Krishna shows up and says you know

(36:33):
you've got to do something this is your
duty okay you are this is your Dharma
this is what you were made to do and you
guys nah I don't want to do this this
here are the reasons why
that's a great discussion because like
every human being goes through that
well it's not really about war or not
war it's about the way that we make

(36:53):
decisions and make meaning I mean so
many of the people who are fighting
um the bhagavad-gita like Gandhi they're
they're signing it as a work of arguing
for peace and arguing for non-violence
but the whole context is a debate about
a guy needs to go fight a war against
his family but the context is where it
leads to the point you just made which

(37:14):
is in regards to who wins this war
you're all going to be gone
Victory is your Victory is not that it's
not that big a deal and there are no
winners in time no it's sorry this is
how it is and I love reading at Bhagavad
Gita
I read it many many many times in fact
on my beds that I've got a Bible and I

(37:36):
have Gandhi's translation of the
Bhagavad guitar because
little commentaries in there in the
margin so well here's what I think was
in arjuna's mind
It Was Written his uh his translation
was written for businessmen and people
who really didn't work Sanskrit Scholars

(37:57):
but we needed to read the bugabani
thoughts I thought so
it's my favorite version that I had
well I mean I think we've kind of
answered the question about why
mythology is important to uh study and
why it's a part of psychology
um what about poetry I mean that's the
other half of the stuff that you do
you're a poet now you've got a Blog

(38:17):
about poetry do you publish poems uh on
print or do you just do them on the web
I'm doing on the blog now and I'm in the
process of doing some in print I'm also
depressed with translating my poetry to
Turkish uh which is that's my little
intellectual exercise to keep me keep my
old brain as I was working but I've had
a really good response to the website

(38:38):
and I encourage people of course to look
at it and also make comments uh and
we'll link to it in the in the show
notes sure and you know one of the
things I I put in there by the way is uh
the critics were somewhat right is what
I say because I address the issue of
criticism and how
when you are doing anything uh like

(38:59):
writing or painting or thinking that
there's criticism and how do you take
constructive criticism
and in retrospect you realize that a lot
of the criticism would ever the person's
motive
is useful is very useful and helps you
to think and you can say yeah well his
or her uh you know motive was terrible

(39:19):
they were just didn't like me okay but
maybe they said something you may want
to consider and that was one topic I've
done but I try to do things but I think
I listen to people and I try to do
things that help them navigate right and
somewhat informed by mythology someone
formed by introspection and philosophy

(39:41):
and
a couple of the poems that are really
popular I I mean if I may I'll read them
for you oh that would be wonderful I'd
love for you to read some oh thanks well
the one that is most popular and written
is uh unselfing and there's a prologue
to it for Tran Russell uses the term
unselfing to describe the practice of

(40:03):
going outside your yourself your needs
and your present situation to connect
with others and with things greater than
oneself I should say yourself I realize
that inconsistency there
in Russell's case the wonders of science
mathematics in the universe this led to
a meditation on unselfing
for Christians it seems particularly

(40:23):
appropriate during Lent which is now I
also think it's very fitting for
ramadans uh or for Muslims in Ramadan so
I'll read it for you myself is me
imagine myself as a hot air balloon
with many heavy rocks attached to it by
ropes anchoring it firmly to the ground

(40:44):
the balloon is my spirit and the rocks
are my own concerns needs wishes worries
desires preoccupy preoccupations
preconceived notions prejudices fears
and worries about things that will never
happen
if I am in this balloon and look down
that is all I see
I look up for however I see the infinite

(41:06):
sky and I know that if I cut the ropes
to these rocks weighing me down
the balloon was soar and I will see new
panoramas I will see others I will see
the place I had been from a loftier
height and see just how small it is
unself
Cut the Ropes to your own Petty concerns

(41:26):
and soar move higher towards Visions
Beyond Myself
towards things greater than the self
where I am my spirit will rise beyond
the self that weighs me down and as I
Rise and soar what was once large
becomes small
my heart expands Beyond me to embrace
others and what was small in my spirit

(41:47):
becomes greater as it rise
that was beautiful thank you that was
fun I enjoyed it
I do my writing of poems I'm going to
tell you this is kind of fun
early early in the morning when I first
get up I think
I'd Ponder I meditate I read things and
I make little notes right

(42:08):
and I do that one day and the poem just
gets written a day or two later because
I then end up uh arguing with myself
saying that's not what you must say it's
kind of stupid or that's I really that
sounds awfully uh you know vaseline on
the lens uh hallmarky so don't do that
and so that's how these things come out

(42:29):
another one I'm gonna read is one of my
most popular ones I've seen getting good
feedback on it's called what does it
matter to me
and I'm going to warn you up front it's
very straightforward
not a lot of of uh metaphor to work
through or anything
it starts with a quote if you feel pain
you are alive you feel another's pain
you're a human but little toe story

(42:52):
what does and guess what this is
inspired by but by the way let you hear
the whole poem go oh yeah I get it what
does it matter to me when there's a war
on the other side of the Earth
very sad quite tragic sorry to hear
about that
but it isn't my War
what does it matter when there's an
earthquake on the other side of the
earth that kills as many people as live

(43:14):
in most small towns tragic I feel sorry
for that what a shame should I buy a hot
tub
we really should install track lighting
in the dining room
why does what does it matter that a
child is hungry on the other end of the
Earth after all people shouldn't have so
many children
well it matters I suppose really but

(43:36):
they always have problems there
if it's on the other side of the world I
really can't see it so it doesn't exist
it doesn't matter
or doesn't matter it isn't my problem
if it appears on the screen I can change
the channel and relax by watching a
zombie apocalypse
The Human Condition is so tragic but
it's not my condition

(43:58):
well perhaps that's the real tragedy
because they're humans and then there's
me
my indifference means that I'm not human
but some other kind of creature
but if I see the things I'd rather not
see it will make me human and then those
things will matter to me
the empty stomach of a child will become

(44:19):
the emptiness of my heart
the empty hand of another will matter
when it touches my hand
and fullness of soul is when other Souls
matter
beauty of faith is not an expensive
cream
but in seeing the beauty of another
human face in our eyes
and the best defense against aging is a
maturity that is so young that it sees

(44:41):
itself an hungry child
and you both matter a little
and you both are undeniably human
perhaps human evolution means becoming
more human
and the discovery of the amount of room
in the human heart is our next great
discovery
wow that is um

(45:01):
there is a complexity to that that is
very effecting thank you sir
I appreciate that appreciate the kind
words
yeah I hadn't I hadn't seen that one on
your blog is that an older one ah well
yeah it's ancient February 11th
it's an old timer

(45:22):
uh would you like another one or them am
I going to get more you no no please and
and say the website too so we can um oh
yeah people can make sure they can find
you everywhere they are very hard to
find it's jfbeerline.com but now since
my name is not quite phonetic in English
it's b-i-e-r-l-e-i-n

(45:45):
and uh absolutely and
and since I'm a great lover of gardening
and wine I planted I planted lots of
grapes
and I wrote a poem about it
called dormant
I just love that word does it sound
awful dormant

(46:05):
I planted grits and grapes and was
warned that they looked dead but they're
merely dormant
sure enough and beneath that appearance
I Nick Divine with my jackknife and saw
green inside
but the right combination of sun rain
and warm soil and it will Spring to life
send out shoots and eventually yield fat

(46:25):
juicy grapes we'll drink that wine for
many years to come
it would have been easy to clear the
vines dead by all appearances they were
gone what a waste that would have been
there have been dormant times in my life
and yours things seemed dead in or even
sterile
completely devoid of any growth and
these times of anxiety and fear I had to

(46:48):
reach deep inside myself to find that
Speck of grain
it seems nothing would bear fruit and
one is at a dead end
others may have decided that you were
finished and done but you weren't
it appeared so to them
but if you know there's still that green
alive in you
with the right combination of hope faith

(47:08):
in the warm soul of the heart you too
will Sprout out and reach out your
branches
you have no idea of the future bear you
have no idea what fine things will come
with the ears
learn the magic that the magic of
dormancy is not death but the staging
for magnificent things
and learn the mystery of seasons in our

(47:29):
life
and the Hope arising that seasons change
none of the seasons last but we can
it's beautiful thank you thank you thank
you so much oh my pleasure I was Happy
Garden someone write smart poems huh
yeah I need to um you do all your
recordings of any of them sometimes like

(47:50):
it's uh we're noticing that younger
Generations like I recommend books or
something like they won't do it unless
it's uh recorded but you know like the
audible seems to be boosting everyone
else I think we'll have to do this we'll
have to do this in credit Joel
Blackstock on his excellent suggestion
I think that's a great idea uh audible
publishing is pretty easy you just you

(48:10):
need a nice mic you can read it yourself
and just upload it and then if it sells
they send you a cut of it Amazon does
well all right we'll investigate that
Joel I mean actually I will pick your
brain at another time and we'll figure
it out the next track yeah it's funny a
lot of people who have aspiring writers
have sent emails and I've told them that
or or current writers um but if you've

(48:30):
got books that haven't sold for a while
or something you know they're not highly
circulated you can just go back and
either pay somebody you know 200 bucks
to record the book uh with on Fiverr or
something one of those contractor sites
where you just read it yourself and
upload it and uh people looking for an
audiobook they have the audible
subscription will start doing it and it
will it old classics are getting

(48:51):
rediscovered that way and also too I
mean if any of your patients have issues
with insomnia I can read I don't know
so
it can help you ever read pin Warren
Robert oh yeah
I love Robert Ben Warren his stuff is
very hard to find like in Nashville my
friend lived in Nashville and said
they're all these he would go to all
these antique stores and used bookplaces

(49:13):
and we had all these books and then
throughout the year some of them got
lost and I was like well I'll just order
another copy and it's like you can't
find a ton of his poetry intelligence of
modern quote-unquote can I say in quote
unquote American verse that my mom
bought in like 1958 or something
and I still have that thing and I've got
it all marked up and it's got Post-it

(49:34):
notes and
coffee stains and I think tears I think
it's got all the works in there and that
book contains a number of his poems
I think a way to love God and waiting
are two my favorite ones oh they're
lovely I I also I'm a big big fan of uh
well T.S Eliot I've been a fan of TS
Elliot
I'm also a great fan of uh Frost I know

(49:57):
Frost has become kind of like overly
popular but Frost is very good for
navigating and overly romanticized I
mean a lot of his stuff is a lot Bleaker
than people will let it be
you know and well you know what you know
the story about him waking his daughter
up at night you familiar with that I
don't know that story he he was drinking

(50:18):
whiskey and he went and got his daughter
up with his gun and was like come
downstairs and kept like holding the gun
and being like who you love more me or
your mom
until she was like no Dad I can't choose
and then the sun came up and he got
tired and he finally went to bed but
it's just like he was not a well guy
well I kind of changed a few things I

(50:38):
didn't have to go back and do some
revisiting for us uh that came from my
poetry professor at Swan he said yeah
I've never heard that before but that is
the professor who taught uh poetry to be
a new swanny so he had known he knew a
lot of things about poets especially the

(51:00):
Southern agrarians and the inklings that
were not common knowledge because he
knew people who had seen it
so he knew the dirt on the people so
it's like would be it's money and he'd
be like oh that's the balance that's the
balcony that Alan Tate held this other
poet off because and he said he was
going to drop him if he didn't recount
all the women had slept with and then
all the women left the party and then it

(51:21):
turned into this huge Ranger and then
this other point was composed I don't
even remember all the stories but it was
just like you know things you can't
Google because they were first or
second-hand accounts of these guys you
hear these saying boy you feel very well
adjusted you know
really
that's something that's pretty uh that's
pretty edgy

(51:42):
behind the flowery language you know is
this insanity or what is it pin one was
really good friends with uh what's his
name who's the guy that wrote um
Deliverance
sticky yeah I was gonna say Duffy and
that's wrong that was and and Dicky I
think Dickie was stalking at swanny like
right before he died of alcoholism too

(52:02):
Vicky was sticky had a rough life I
think he was horribly
you're talking about people with
depression Nikki was on the top of that
list
it's pretty seriously who else it was I
just finished reading the the Joel Cohen
is super into you know the Coen Brothers
he loves existentialism and
Spinoza and all this stuff and he spent

(52:24):
a really long time trying to get the
James Dickey book made he's good there's
a script of Joel Cohen adapting a James
Dickey book which is really interesting
Spinoza's best quote that I liked I tell
everyone when I have a chances but Peter
says about Paul tells you more about
Peter than it does about Paul
believe it or not

(52:45):
I always thought that was a brilliant
vote
well
um and and the thing I like about pin
Warren is his books uh are kind of poems
and his poetry is kind of prose it is
and that's why I'd ask you because you
were reading something that was just a
series of statements that was not overly
ornate that turns into just by this the

(53:06):
way that these simple statements are
arranged this beautiful thing and but
Morton would kind of do that where he's
just being like Oh you know the way that
sheep chew grass and their eyes watch
the sky yes yes I know what you're
saying and and and Penn Warren has a
very nice way of lulling you into this
happy place and then biting you you know
what I mean it's like oh yeah it's like
you wild into well it's a pretty bucolic

(53:30):
image and also boom
something something nasty hits what's
that uh in waiting it's like you think I
speak in riddles but I don't yeah
exactly the world means nothing but
itself
it's lovely
I'm glad you enjoyed that poem and I'm
glad you enjoyed poetry it's wonderful

(53:50):
and my wife likes to I I think I've
never seen a roller eyes harder than
when our daughter our first child was
taking her first step and she was like
oh my gosh and violet stood up and
walked and I'll write recited the the
Avid the the animals must cast their
gaze upon the grass to trod but
humankind can stand direct to avert its
eyes to God

(54:15):
thank you
yeah
oh man
um well yeah so you're can you talk
about the transition from mythology to
poetry you know because we know as
mythology was poetry or is poetry sure
sure but you know the greatest thing you

(54:35):
I always tell people is they say well
what's the difference in mythology and
poetry I'll say well go to see Ovid
because he has [ __ ] go see Homer
go see the writers of the Mahabharata go
see these guys look at them it's all
poetry it was recited as poetry uh the
epics were recited ethics they all are

(54:57):
poetry and poetry has always been the
way of conveyance of the elements of
meaning
well in pre-writing that was how you
would memorize it you know if somebody
told the story you could change stuff
but if I you know somebody else could
invent a new thing but if every end of
the line rhymes with the next thing and
there's a meter then you can't change it
you gotta you remember what's funny is
people immediately recognize poetry as

(55:19):
separate from prose or basic narrative
instantly
it sounds like they don't even know if
they have to be taught it's a
fascinating thing to me it's I think
there's some innate poetic thing going
on with people and in mythology it works
the same way
they instinctively know what the story

(55:40):
is they instinctly know that it's not
objective recounting of something you
know it's like
I always find fans with both poetry
mentality you have to explain to people
the difference from usually at least
they're most sane people I should say
you don't have to explain the difference
from that from normal stated narrative

(56:00):
and they know that conveys something
different than our stated narrative
and
you know a few times I recall talking to
people and I remember years ago the
this person speaking poetically they
don't know they are but there's being
poetically that would tell them and say
what do you mean by that

(56:22):
and I would say you're not speaking in
normal narrative it's not like you know
we need some coffee creamer uh you're
speaking about
conveying to me a very cons very
complicated concept of negotiating our
way through human existence in a
relatively simple way that I can grasp
and that I think is what poetry and

(56:42):
mythology do
yeah and I think there's something
about poetry that when people have kind
of a rigid ego when they kind of cling
to logic or existential whatever it
bothers them you know yeah uh you I
don't remember you know there's certain
types of people that have a poem or
something it's in the book you know they

(57:03):
start to roll their eyes and I think
it's a lot of why Jung is on the outside
you know Carl Jung is on the outside of
uh the Medical Institution and probably
always will be is you know what is it in
school they said like well you can't be
a union because
there's no way to objectively disprove
it the theory the theory isn't valid

(57:24):
because there's no way to objectively to
disprove it it's like there's no way to
disprove a metaphor like it's not a
literal psychology it's it yeah it
wasn't built that way you know his book
the answer to job
is uh I always felt was an amazing piece
of poetry really you understand you're
at the answer joke it's very good and
it's it's the problem of misery and why

(57:46):
do we suffer and all these things and
it's very poetic to read you know and
then you go back and read the biblical
Book of John and get some new insights
out of it but
it tells you about the
awareness that derives from suffering
and that suffering is an important

(58:06):
element in navigating one's way through
life that suffering generates values
the last line of the red book is thank
you for the suffering
oh that's right I'm plagiarized didn't I
yeah suffering generates values I may be
wrong there that's my memory but yeah so
I find I just find that really
interesting that you know uh to look at

(58:27):
things that way and and what is tragedy
tragedy is a finger wagging form of uh
of wisdom isn't it
what is tragic what is tragic is
Meaningful I always tell people that
what is truly tragic is always
meaningful
that sounds like Simone you you read
samanbe or any of the messages of course

(58:50):
when they got the publisher perfect they
they did the publisher did uh this
republishing of a bunch of uh
Greek plays and um
that they would have like historical
photographs on the different things like
for the Agamemnon it's like Mussolini
going into Italy and different things oh
yeah
um but the for uh the Antigone there was

(59:12):
just a picture of Simone Bay like it's
like perfect I mean that's just a
perfect thing because there's such a
Melancholy sadness that you get this
person who it's so wise but is also kind
of halfway in this world and halfway out
oh yeah one of my one of my worst puns
of all time though I must say is uh
euripides believe it or not

(59:33):
like you've heard of Ripley's Believe it
or not but yeah and euripides believe it
or not
oh that's clever
oh yeah that's I
some people find that tiresome but it's
well I'm gonna cut us off in a minute
here you'll keep going for a few minutes
yet but uh yeah you've got you've got a

(59:53):
meeting coming up so I don't want to
keep you past that but this is more fun
yeah well it's fascinating I'd love to
we'd love to do a part two or something
uh maybe we could do just kind of a
poetry reading or something um
if you're ever in Texas you can drink
some of my wine with me oh yeah that'd
be wonderful

(01:00:14):
um we uh we do some work with another
clinic down there and we're thinking
they have a thing here so I might maybe
maybe at some point I don't know uh one
of my good friends is from there but I
don't travel a ton after the kids and
pretty much just work and
um
listen you have a wonderful day and it's
been a joy to talk to you sir yeah thank
you so much I really appreciate it let

(01:00:34):
me um stop the recording and then is
there anything else that you want to
plug that you want uh to talk about
people can get your books or the books
still for sale on Amazon they sure are
it's a parallel notes and living this by
Robert by uh JF bear Lane anything else
you could say by Robert Frost yeah
I don't know why Robert was a man
I swear I've never

(01:00:56):
done so I don't think the word
um let's see all right so those books
are on Amazon and then jfbearlane.com
that's j f b i e r l e i n.com and we'll
link to that uh in the show notes and in
the in the notes on the YouTube but um
check it out and thank you so much for

(01:01:16):
making time
thank you
[Music]

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