🛐Interview with David Tacey on Carl Jung, Mysticism, and the Politics of Religion

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
hi this is Joel Blackstock with the Tap
Root therapy Collective podcast and
today I sat down with someone who I've
been a long time fan of and been reading
since I was in high school David tacy
um tasty is kind of a public
intellectual in Australia he's a writer
of many books one of the first books
that brought me to Jung called how to

(00:21):
read Jung and the young reader he's a
professor at Latrobe University in
Melbourne and he's also a professor at
the Australian Center for Christianity
and culture
um to list all of his accomplishments
would take a long long time but uh tasty
is a student of anthropology religion

(00:42):
sociology and the history of
psychoanalytic therapy so he goes back
and knows a lot of the history of the
profession is a very interesting writer
with a lot of very unique insights the
conversation covers a lot of Jung's
early life and work and exactly what
Carl Jung was also comparative religion

(01:04):
politics and all the things in the
middle so I hope that you enjoy the
interview and I'm going to go ahead and
roll that now
here
[Music]

(01:26):
well um I appreciate you getting up uh
on a on a Monday morning it's uh evening
of the day before here
um but you know it's kind of with the
interviews with these it's we had talked
a little bit on email but it's hard
because you want to be able to have a
little bit of questions to have a
braille to guide people but you also
don't want to box somebody in and you
know you the amount of history that

(01:48):
um of the profession that you know and
uh all of the different skills that you
have it makes it hard you know not to
box you in when you probably could
um you know write an essay on any of
these things
foreign
so what what do you want to ask me first
well I was interested like in a lot of

(02:10):
the one of the things that we talked
about is just kind of because our the
podcast is for people who may not have
like a huge uh vested interest and they
may not have like a ton of uh knowledge
about all these things you know they
probably have encountered young a little
bit
um but I mean one of the things we
talked about is just that like
Jung is such a big topic people kind of
cherry pick different things in a way

(02:32):
that doesn't make sense a lot of the
time and I think American unionism
particularly as bad about just
sanitizing it where it's like it's
almost like well it's religion plus
supportive counseling that's what it
means to be a union analyst or it's but
you know they kind of discard the the
process or the parts of it that are
maybe threatening to them or harder
harder to do something with

(02:53):
um I mean do you have anything to say
about that or
well Jung is a huge area
um I mean I've spent 50 years in the
area
and um
I don't feel like even begun to really
cover all bases
Jung is a is a it's a kind of a universe

(03:15):
of thought within himself
and there are parts of the
the still parts of the collective work
so I haven't even read
um they're so dense especially the last
work he did on Alchemy
um you virtually need a much better
knowledge of Latin than I have to work

(03:38):
through those
as you know Jung often dropped Latin
ancient Greek Arabic
um French Italian terms and phrases and
it's quite inhibiting so
that's why a London publisher
asked me some years ago to write a book

(04:00):
called
um
how to read your because
there's really no way that people could
just dive in unprepared
um perhaps the only way of diving in
unprepared would be to to read his
Memoirs memories dreams Reflections is a

(04:21):
very accessible book
and the other book that's accessible is
essays on contemporary events
um and also of course man and his
symbols
but the problem with man and his symbols
he's deliberately trying to
um reach a wide audience and it's almost

(04:42):
a kind of a kindergarten book it's a
publisher book you know yeah I mean he's
responding to the publisher in London
who wanted him to do an introduction and
and I think that was John Freeman who
who interviewed him on the BBC on a
number of occasions
um so that book is not terribly terrific

(05:04):
I'd rather suggest people start with
memories dreams Reflections if they want
to dive in
um in the collective works well even to
buy them is a big Financial investment
but the one to start with I think is
volume seven two essays on analytical

(05:24):
psychology
um is a nice introduction to the field
when I was um young
um someone gave me Eon uh or ion as it's
pronounced
um a-i-o-n and that was far too um
uh too advanced for me I think I was

(05:47):
20 19 or 20 and I could make head or
tail of it and
too many ancient languages and too many
scientific terms
so um
just just getting your toe into the Jung
field is quite a challenge for for
starting off it's hard to understand

(06:09):
what it is I mean a lot of your work and
John bibi's work with mbti brought me
into it um because we're kind of in a
cognitive behavioral therapy desert here
Dev psychology is just not something
that you encounter the people if you
encounter it it's just to write it off
you know either like okay Ewing invented
the collective unconscious and did
nothing that was a little bullet point
in the psychology 101 chapter moving on

(06:29):
and
um yeah I mean and I think what gets
people too is that there's a ton of
phases over his life
and I mean I have a hard time following
him into the Alchemy stuff I just I mean
I believe that early science probably
was projective and he's right that
people were projecting psychology onto
you know pre-scientific science it's
just not super interesting to me

(06:51):
personally
um but there's these phases that he goes
through as a person and I think a lot of
different jungian Scholars or analysts
relate to different parts of those
phases and they kind of try and make
that all of it even though he changes
quite a bit and maybe doesn't know what
he even thinks he's you know chewing on
things as he's as he's uh growing

(07:14):
I've just finished reading catafelk by
Peter Kingsley
um and that's a very fascinating book
um
another another writer from the UK
and he he drops the view which I have a
lot of sympathy with that most jungians
have got young completely wrong

(07:35):
that they've domesticated him that would
be my experience yeah they've
um
you know they've turned him into a
pussycat but actually he's a raging lion
and a very dangerous and threatening
thinker in the tradition of Friedrich
Nietzsche or schopenhauer or Schiller or

(07:56):
any of his German forebears and of
course
um
one of the tendencies that America does
when someone becomes popular America
tends to make them more simple than they
are
they make them somehow more digestible a

(08:16):
more domesticated and
um it's a strange
The Habit that America has with them
popularizing people and often getting
them wrong in the process but beyond
according to Peter Kingsley Jung is a
full-blown Mystic and a religious

(08:37):
prophet and that the jungians don't want
to admit this because they they are
invested with the idea of him being a
scientist and in fact when I met the
young family in Switzerland some years
ago to ask for permission to write a
book which I've published called the

(08:59):
Jung reader
which has come out in several languages
now it designed that book was designed
to replace Joseph Campbell's book uh the
portable yawn which was edited by Joseph
Campbell in
1972 which is a long time ago and
there's been a massive amount in the

(09:21):
young field written since 1972
um you know changed our views of young
almost completely so I wrote that and I
met the well the family in the in the
house in Zurich and they still have this
impression that Jung is a scientist I

(09:45):
mean
um
I found it really hard to understand I
mean he's a philosopher first and
foremost he's a philosopher who works in
the field of psychology that's how I
would Define him and his philosophy is
of course extremely dependent on
theology as well and on Ancient you know

(10:09):
medieval studies and classical studies
he's a kind of renaissance man or a
Renaissance thinker and he seems to be
fully grass have full grasp of several
disciplines including biology
anthropology archeology

(10:30):
um physics of course he worked with the
Nobel prize-winning physicist Wolfgang
Paoli and before that he worked a course
with Einstein
um in in Zurich they were in the same
Institute together the Polytechnic
Institute and they befriended each other

(10:50):
and um it was Einstein who suggested to
Young that he might explore the field of
synchronicity
that came from Einstein
um and they both like red wine and they
would go to Young's holiday house at
bollingen on the lake
called the bollingen tower and

(11:13):
apparently they had rip roaring times
down there but unfortunately there's no
um
record
um of the com well you know the
conversations between Einstein and yuel
and I think that would be imagine what
kind of gold mine that would be today to
release
this type of information well I think

(11:34):
there was a just voracious hunger for
him to create a kind of lens to few
Human Experience that was a unified
principle the unified theory of
everything you know there was no
discipline left out because like the the
difference in Jung and I think what a
lot of other people who are doing
objective Sciences is that his
psychology is purely phenomenological I

(11:57):
mean it is what he is feeling on the
inside he's not really worried about
what is on the outside as much as what
is the experience of this like and I
think in my uh I mean and you know more
about this than I do but like what I
feel when you read his career is that he
tries to be a scientist until he can't
be anymore and then he and then and he's

(12:18):
worried about the perception he's
worried about this and then he gets to a
point where it's like you know I can't
do this scientifically it has to be this
direct experience descent
it kind of looks crazy thank you on that
uh that is a great quotable quote he
tries to be a scientist until he can't
do it anymore that is so good job

(12:41):
um and that's probably some of that
inner voice where you know Freud is
pushing him for a long time to be a
scientist get this weird New Age stuff
out of there so that people will respect
you know this profession
because don't forget that Freud got rid
of Jung in 1913.
because he felt that Jung was could be

(13:02):
seen as a prophet or a Mystic or a
spiritual leader and but did Jung get
rid of Freud you know he's maybe still
having a fight with someone who is not
there for a while
he was having a fight with someone who
wasn't fighting back all his life I mean
you can read the last pieces that Jung

(13:23):
ever wrote In
like memory streams Reflections man and
his symbols Jung is still fighting Freud
although Freud died 40 years earlier
um but absolutely right about that
um
when they met it must have been
absolutely electric the atmosphere I

(13:43):
think the first time they met they
talked non-stop for nine or ten hours
straight you know they had a lot in
common but unfortunately more
they had more not in common than they
did have in common but both of them were
committed to the to the unconscious
which by the way

(14:05):
um Freud called the subconscious and the
old said no we can't call it the
subconscious that's too demeaning let's
just call it the unconscious so Freud
took Jung's advice
um and Freud stopped after you know
after he met your we stopped using the
word subconscious but
um you'll also offered young offered

(14:28):
Freud the word complex
um that was Young's own making which
came out of his word association tests
he started to realize that people had
complexes
um when they were asked certain words
and there was a long pause young figured
the reason there was there was a long
pause it was because people were

(14:49):
confused on that particular something
had triggered something in them so Jung
called it a complex and Freud took that
up and um when he split with Freud
that's when he invented his theory of
psychological types
um which of course is now a
a huge industry in its own right every

(15:11):
workplace
in the world
uses the Myers-Briggs they change it
just enough to patent it and call it
something else yeah and in fact
sometimes these people ask me to speak
about this background
to psychological types you know
introversion extroversion

(15:33):
um
Jung uses those terms and every time we
talk about introverts and extroverts
we're quoting young without knowing it
yeah and um
that's why Jung invented that because he
could see that Freud was a different
type to himself and that part of the
reason of their falling out wasn't just

(15:54):
personal difficulties or faults but they
were looking at the world through
different lenses and Adler too I think
he saw Freud Adler and him so
passionately and going in very different
directions Adler probably had more in
common than you than Freud did the
compensation and attention of opposites
is a lot like yes

(16:15):
the power struggle power was very
important to Adler that's one idea that
for every external part that's big there
is an internal part that is big that is
unseen you know they're both noticing
that probably because they're sitting
with Freud
has a lot that he never deals with
but the problem is that Freud wasn't at

(16:37):
all grateful I mean you've spent several
years of his life
constructing this theory of
psychological types almost as an apology
to Freud as why as to explain why they
split but Freud never received the the
gift in the right Spirit you know he

(16:57):
just ignored you
um from then on and of course it was a
very odd Larry and like power struggle
between Freud and mule
but Freud had coordinated this so-called
special committee that sat in London
under the leadership of Ernest Jones to

(17:18):
try and test the scientific credibility
of Young's ideas
um naturally
Ernest Jones who was a close associate
of Freud came up with a view that Jung's
scientific ideas weren't really
empirically valid and that Jung had gone

(17:38):
off into philosophizing and well it's an
intuitive and felt psychology you know
it's not one that you can measure or
turn into a number like behaviorism or
cognitive therapy to it yeah
so but that that um that London group
was so Savage toward Jung that I I
actually feel that he never really
recovered his reputation that

(18:03):
um
that that was so influential especially
in Europe
um and parts of America as well
that in Canada that
um young was sort of completely knocked
out of out of business and uh he had to

(18:23):
rely on his Close Associates most of
whom by the way were Jewish
um and yet
you know uh Freud kept claiming that
Jung was anti-Semitic and so he Freud
played the race card on your and I've
written about this extensively

(18:44):
um and I thought it was very unfortunate
because of course this was during the
Nazi era and so um Freud was very
careful to try and pin
um
anti-Semitism on your during the Nazi
era which basically meant that that your
Young's reputation was sunk

(19:06):
um I one thing that fascinates me Joel
is that
um
Jung's relationship to the Nazis
um was on the whole
a very negative one like you know he
wrote essays called votan which was
about The Madness of Hitler
um whereas someone like Martin Heidegger

(19:27):
the philosopher probably the most
philosopher of the 20th century
um
that was a full-blown member of the Nazi
party
and somehow or other
rehabilitated pretty fast for some
reason how did that happen you know I

(19:47):
mean or the scientists you know the
right you look at Von Braun and a lot of
these people who had to know about the
supply chain and things that we win and
forgive them because they're useful
yeah so
hiding it was forgiven I mean admittedly
it took a while hiding was was only
forgiven quite relatively recently you

(20:09):
know during the 1980s
um late 70s but you almost still got
stain of anti-Semitism there's some
there's some hip pieces I mean I think
one of the things that it may be part of
the reason the red book got published
but you know Richard Noll has these
books where he attacks young and says
all this stuff that I really just don't

(20:30):
think is true at all you know he says he
was trying to start a cult and it was
like he didn't want an Institute he the
only reason he did it was he was like
they're going to do this with or without
me so I might as well be a little bit
involved in it
um you know he asked not to be lionized
after he died you know there's if he was
trying to be kind of the Mad Prophet or
start a cult he did a bad job of it
um but one of the things with Knoll

(20:52):
because I I actually read Richard
Knowles stuff before I read uh Jung
before I knew a lot about Jung and so I
was willing to kind of accept the theory
and then it was slowly like what because
you know he he says you know that a big
tenet of unionism not Richard Noll
doesn't say this but like a big part of
Young's psychology is that religion is
projective you know we we take something

(21:15):
internal and then we need the world to
function a certain way and then we start
to believe certain things through
mythology or ritual or and and that
process is how you can understand what's
going on on the inside and the deepest
part of the unconscious and so as you're
reading the book and and null
essentially is like well yeah you know
the biggest organizing principle of our
entire civilization and Society since

(21:36):
the Bronze Age it doesn't correspond to
psychology at all it's just created
randomly in a vacuum totally removed
from the psychology of the people making
it it's like wait what I mean I mean I
don't is he is he Catholic or something
I mean I guess if you're saying that the
the word of God is handed down in this
book then you need to separate that from
psychology but with any kind of with any

(21:59):
kind of healthy perspective on religion
how can you say that it nothing none of
that corresponds to a psychological
State and that our psychology is not
part of our religion I mean that we're
picking these things at random just to
build civilizations around that's wild
well I think um Richard Noll started
with very malicious intent you know he

(22:20):
had obviously read some Jung but I don't
think he read him correctly and I think
that Richard Noll had deliberately
misread your
see one of the big things that separates
psychology and religion is the symbolic
attitude so in in-depth psychology every
month every pretty much everything is is

(22:41):
read through the lens of symbolism
but but Richard Noll is persistent in
his tendency to read what Jung says
literally
you know and to read it literally is to
make it almost bizarre and um and
religion is not literal it's not a

(23:02):
literal thing you know I was raised to
Episcopalian
and it's there's a certain point that
some people get to where they're like
okay that's an allegory that's an
allegory that's an allegory but from
here on out it's literal you know you're
the first book there's a snake that is
talking about eating fruit most people
you know maybe not everyone but most
people who are Christian in America are
probably like well you know that's
that's a a myth it's an allegory for

(23:24):
something but then you get a little
further in the Bible and they're like no
but that part you can't and then some
people are willing to make the whole
thing a metaphor
um but it's you know how much your
religion is in control of your life or
or where you stop being a scientist and
start being a person of Faith
I've written the whole book on this
topic so I could talk for this for an

(23:45):
hour those books tend to not sell a
whole lot in the US I don't know how
they do in Australia you can write books
of religion and sell them but you can't
write books about religion and sell them
uh one of my books recently is called
religion as metaphor and uh it's all
about this question and it it it says

(24:06):
that there is
um a tendency for Christian for
Christians to read the Old Testament
metaphorically you know the the the the
Eden Garden of Eden creation myth a lot
of Christians are happy to read that
it's a myth one of my students said to
me
come on she said you can't take a book

(24:30):
that starts with a talking snake
literally
I think people do I mean I've heard
defenses of the snake
but I imagine there are many people in
the Deep South and the Midwest America
who still read the Bible literally
that's the feeling I get I used to live
in the states some years ago actually

(24:50):
you used to live in Texas too so yeah
and a lot of people in Texas are eating
still reading the Bible literally you
know they've not caught on to the modern
interpretation about reading it through
symbol myth and metaphor in fact I did
think about calling my book religion as
myth but my U.S publisher advised me

(25:13):
against that because
in America like in most countries the
word myth means falsehood you know like
it has no mirror in it it's just uh it's
just um
untruth and I didn't want that because I
have a very strong uh respect for
religion but I also have a strong

(25:34):
respect for the intellectual reading of
religion and it was Young Who pointed
out to me one of the first
uh people that that we've been there's
been a mistake made a long while ago of
reading the Bible literally
and um Jung couldn't abide the Virgin

(25:54):
birth of Jesus for instance nor could he
abide the physical Resurrection but he
he saw both of these events a very
important spiritual ideas that we need
to contemplate and he let patients you
know continue their religious Traditions
a couple places he points people back to
their religious tradition he tells them

(26:15):
to go back to the the there's the Muslim
man and the Christians so I mean he he
had respect and and viewed the utility
of this as something that enriched life
and was helpful yes he told him to go
back but he didn't tell tell them to go
back to the literal reading of it all so
you know like if you were a Christian
and you lapsed out because you couldn't

(26:35):
read it literally you all would support
you in that
um lapsing out
um and saying look but go back and and
and read it non-literally and it'd still
be very very it'll be more important for
you than red literally so you know
that's a big topic of its own but I

(26:56):
don't want to waste our time talking
only about religion but as you know Jung
wrote whole books on volumes on religion
psychology of religion
American unions will tell you that Jung
is their religion which is a strange way
to use junk I mean it's a lens to
understand what it is but I don't think

(27:16):
being a union analyst is a religion in
the way that some people will say no
No in fact young was her deadly opposed
to this idea that
um it's funny you're the people who
loved John and the people who hated you
had the same view about him
which was that he was starting a new

(27:37):
religion that's why people hated and
loved him but both were wrong because he
kept saying no no no no no this is not
what I'm doing I'm building a
psychological bridge to religion he uses
that metaphor job constantly when he has
the falling out with the priest right he

(27:57):
was kind of trying to update
Christianity yeah yeah the priest in
Britain called Father Victor white
um he followed young until he published
answered a job
1952. he writes a letter to Martin
boober too where they disagree on
religion
bowling out with Martin buber in the

(28:19):
Jewish tradition did the Pope ever
respond I knew that he wrote a letter to
the pope being like oh you're getting
you're making Catholicism better good
job this is what it's supposed to be
like in the Pope's like of course making
good autism right on the boat
um well that was Pope Pius the 12th and
he respond to him or anything
who respond to who did the Pope write

(28:41):
junk back when Jung wrote that letter
no no he didn't No in fact from that
point on Jung got banned by the Vatican
um because
um but don't tell the pope he's doing a
good job
Vatican is very ambivalent about you
because

(29:02):
um
one one
thing that Jung did was was as you said
he returned certain Catholics to
Catholicism where they'd abandoned it
because they'd become enlightened or
intellectually
got sick of it or and the pope actually
sent Young a blessing

(29:24):
in 19 I think 1950 it wasn't the pope
who delivered it personally but he
passed it on to the Catholic Archbishop
of Zurich whose name I can't remember
and he all got the blessing from the
pope through the Archbishop of Zurich

(29:45):
um I hope they realize that Jung was
never even a Catholic you know like why
he's getting blessed by the pope was a
bit of a well they've banned you pretty
much every decade since he died it's
like too many too many vocal clergy with
podcasts and and and quills will start
to write books about you and then they

(30:06):
will
um come in and say uh oh no you can't
you can't do that
um
I mean there's a huge number of Catholic
priests in the world especially in North
America
um who've taken young very seriously and
written books about him and I think the

(30:28):
Vatican has felt very insecure about
this and um as you say about every
decade they come out with a new edict
against young it's hilarious actually
because
um one of these things anyone listening
uh can Google it it's called Jesus

(30:49):
Christ The Water of Life
um it's online and it's about 30 pages
condemning your as a heretic as a
gnostic uh as a blasphemer it's
incredible considered that the same
church blessed him not too long ago so I
think the Catholic Church does that to a

(31:10):
lot of people you know moisture Eckhart
is excommunicated and you know sainted
so there's in fact um X Meister Eckhart
the historians are now claiming was
murdered by the Vatican army on his way
to Rome he left Paris he'd been called
up by the Vatican but because Eckhart

(31:31):
had said that God has to be reborn in
the human heart
and that was dangerous for the Catholic
church because
there was only one person that was close
to that close to God and that was his
son Jesus Christ and so Eckhart like all
Mystics basically says the whole

(31:53):
religious drama is about every person
it's not just about one person
and there's another person I should
mention in this context
um the German Theologian Eugene
dreverman
d-r-e-w-e-r-m-a-w in Eugene dreverman
Eugene dreverman who's been

(32:15):
um
banished by the Catholic Church he's
written 40 books on Catholicism and yawn
but only three of them have been
translated into English I've read them
all and they're just absolutely stunning
and I wish that somebody would translate
the rest of these 40 books but the

(32:35):
Catholic church was up in arms and he
got defrault and um he can't practice as
a Catholic priest anymore that's how
serious they take the challenge uh from
Jung so religions are very aware of your
but mostly it's this hysterically
negative point of view

(32:56):
one of the things that they all have in
common is misreading your so I can just
give you a quick example when you'll of
course young was hugely influenced by
Meister Eckhart
um the you know late term late medieval
Mystic in the Rhineland what we call
Germany today

(33:17):
and um Jung believes that Eckhart is
right about the idea that God needs to
be reborn in the human soul
and so that that made the authorities in
Rome uh very uh negative toward new but

(33:38):
when you young uses the word self this
is where a lot of the complication
arises he's actually borrowing the
Indian idea of the self capitalism the
Atman yeah yeah and in Vatican and
everywhere else
I've been reading this self as the ego

(33:58):
and so in this long
30 page diatribe against young they
refer to young as narcissistic egotistic
and making some kind of demonic religion
out of the ego because the idea that
we've got something in us that's in
addition to the ego is not a western

(34:20):
idea and it's threatening to the ego you
know to the hierarchies of that it's
threatening to the ego
but the the idea of God being reborn in
this Capital itself is a cool standard
in the east Hinduism
um Buddhism has that of course but a
slightly different

(34:41):
uh Direction because Buddhism doesn't
believe in the self and it doesn't
believe in God either well if there's
not a self you know what is being
reincarnated or if there's not there's a
lot of or what if there's not a self
then how did the bodus offers have a
self to come now different branches of
Buddhism sort of become Hinduism or
Jainism again and they've reintroduced
the idea proclaiming to not have it so

(35:03):
what in sense what Jung is is the east
in the West
you know and he had such a hard time he
was he basically had Eastern insights
Eastern intuitions but in the context of
Western science and Sonu shamdasani is
probably the leading scholar on Jung
today he lives in London works at the

(35:25):
University of London was basically
saying that the scientists regard
disregarded York for being too religious
and the theologians
disregarded Jung for being too mystical
and they have people who call me and
they're like well I want to come see you
and they schedule and then they're like
well I looked on your website and it
says you do young so I can't see you

(35:46):
because I'm an atheist or I can't see
you because I'm a Christian so you lose
people I was like well you know I'm
wondering what you're taking me using
you know again technique to mean here
but that's fine yeah so the problem with
the old now in the University she don't
find young in The Universities at all
anymore
um I think there was a stage back in the

(36:07):
20s and 30s where American universities
were very interested in you in fact
Freud and young used to go to America in
the 70s that was everywhere yeah
Campbell wasn't too upfront about his
influences though I mean he didn't Point
people back to where he got a lot of his
ideas which I think
yeah I I did I dislike that about

(36:30):
Campbell I mean most of his ideas are
completely borrowed from you but
um yeah there is an American idea that
America is a source country and doesn't
like always to acknowledge that many of
its so-called original ideas came from
Europe

(36:51):
um so I think that's a problem that's
part of the American complex is that it
is original and uh original thinking is
important to it James a rugged
individualism and and that we are the
source of culture for the world yes
exactly which is true in part about the
US I'm not wishing to be too critical

(37:11):
but I think that Jung's influence on
Campbell and Jung's influence on people
like Robert Bly and uh
um Jordan Peterson that's another topic
uh and uh James Hillman is enormous but
uh that's around certain reluctance to
admit Mercier eliade is another one

(37:33):
who's very reluctant to admit to the
public uh that he was hugely influenced
by Young
um I was wondering you know before we
get off the topic of religion or take a
break from it
um if
there's an idea you know you're talking
about Jung
[Music]
um
kind of independently discovering

(37:55):
probably a lot like Eckhart you know
this Eastern idea
um could you say a little bit about the
relationship in a jungian conception
between the self not the ego but the
deep and aware self and and God or the
reality of God because there is a
relationship that is interesting you
know in the Indian tradition between

(38:16):
those but it is kind of hard to explain
it
it is
um's model is completely based on
Hinduism
which he was really influenced by and in
Hinduism
the self as I said before is called the
Atman Atman and the Atman is regarded as

(38:40):
the place in the human being so to speak
I mean I'm using the word Place
metaphorically but the place in the
human being which is in touch with bro
with Brahma which is God
so the relationship between Atman and

(39:00):
Brahma is very similar in Christianity
to relationship between God the son and
God the Father
so but in Christianity
of course the whole idea of the Atman as
it were is projected onto the Jesus
Christ figure
and only he has the special close

(39:23):
relationship to God the father so this
was never even conceived as a
possibility
in Hinduism
because they always felt that the
relationship between the human being and
Brahma or God is closer than it gets in

(39:45):
Christianity so
there are of course uh Hindu Christians
who respect and
appreciate the Christian
story
and uh but but Hinduism itself is really
I guess is form it's a form of mysticism

(40:07):
um so this is the thing that fascinates
me that the East doesn't need to develop
mysticisms which can complement their
orthodoxies
whereas in the West in both um well the
three abrahamic religions
Christianity Judaism and and Islam

(40:30):
in order to get that closeness or
proximity between the human and
the god
we have to develop mysticisms so you
know a Jewish Kabbalah for instance the
Christian mystical tradition and the
Islamic tradition of Sufism
developed because the need to compensate

(40:53):
the Orthodox traditions which tend to
place the human and the god far apart
but um in both Hinduism and Buddhism you
know the two major Eastern religions
um there is no need to complement the
orthodoxies because they're already

(41:14):
mysticisms well the path is there but
you know if you're dealing with Islam or
Christianity or you need to build the
path to have the direct experience to
God because the tradition is there to
keep it away from you to give you a
hierarchy and a structure in a container
and if you hang out there long enough
maybe you get bored with the container
and you want to crack that open and

(41:35):
leave the ego and so then you have to
have uh you know a mystical uh a pathway
that out of the literal interpretation
that's exactly right but in Catholicism
has made an interesting
breakthrough
on this and and particularly from the

(41:56):
Theologian Carl Rana
r-a-h-n-e-r the German Catholic
Theologian who was very influential in
the Vatican II to Council in 1960s and
Vatican
um to council plus Carl Rana said that
the future Christian must be a mystical

(42:17):
person or won't be at all
so Catholicism
almost seemingly in a turn of about you
know an about face has this idea that it
itself should become more mystical
that's what it said in Vatican II
Council in the early 60s but of course

(42:39):
what happened was that most Bishops
archbishops and Cardinals didn't agree
with this radical finding of Vatican II
councils so they kind of protested
against it
so we we find in the Catholic church
today
very few priests who actually believe in

(43:01):
this mystical Direction they they want
to restore the old hierarchy they want
to restore power of the clergy because
of course if individuals have a mystical
connection to God then really the clergy
and its hierarchy is irrelevant because
if you don't make room for that the

(43:22):
priests leave you know they leave the
tradition when you're not allowing uh
the pessimistical pathway to exist
simultaneously with the people who need
the literalism and the people who need
the so that's that's right so that's why
the Catholic church is in a bit of a
chaotic State at the moment because
in the 60s the Vatican II Council was

(43:43):
said to be a movement of the Holy Spirit
and in one of the encyclicals um
called the word of God
um verbum day Deo Deo Urban uh it
actually says that we want to change
Catholicism to being a religion about
God

(44:04):
to a religion of God
so they wanted to bring this they could
see that
that the world especially the Western
World and educated people no longer
wanted this kind of second-hand religion
they wanted the first hand experience
and that of course is what Jung was
saying all along

(44:25):
so Catholicism said that and then it
backtracked fiercely with a huge
backlash
um from conservative Bishops well the
people who are kind of the most
reactionary Catholics a lot of the time
that memorize all the rules and can
calculate exactly how much you time you
spend in purgatory for each crime and

(44:46):
sin and all that they're the converts
but the communities that have been
Catholic for a long time they tend to
develop that transcendental pathway
through the Saints a lot of the time and
then that's what the Saints functioning
similar to the way that in a you know in
Hinduism the different gods function as
there is one God but this is a
manifestation of one need for God you

(45:06):
know Ganesha the elephants elephants are
construction equipment it will remove
the obstacle for you and you see you
know different cultural groups have
festivals the Saints start to function
that way when you spend time in that
world
the Saints do act as intermediaries I
think is the word that we're looking for
here and Mary Virgin Mary Mother of God

(45:28):
mother of Jesus is of course in
Catholicism uh are seen as a mediary
um away if you like I mean in the
beginning Christianity was called the
way capital W and
um it lost that as hierarchy dogma and
Doctrine sort of took over and it became

(45:49):
as you said before virtually became a
way to keep people from God you know to
protect to protect people from a
potentially disorienting direct
experience with god
um and that's what Jung says in his book
psychology and religion that the West

(46:13):
partly feared direct contact
with the source of our being because it
thought it might be totally disorienting
and even dismembering
even dismembering of people so well
Edinger has that great map and um ego
and archetype where you know you're

(46:33):
familiar with the diagram where he says
like this is the functioning church and
the archetypes are being held by the
container but then when it breaks down
everyone is having a direct experience
but they're not ready for it and it
starts to look like psychosis if you're
not ready for it and you look at
political developments like Q Anon or
these things where people are engaging
you know that aren't quite ready with

(46:53):
this archetypal stuff and it's there's a
rootlessness there's no container
there's no hierarchy there's they're not
ready and you know a lot of American
certain kinds of American political and
religious belief are starting to look
just a lot like schizophrenia you know
in the broad Strokes of how they
function no that's right and that's why

(47:14):
Jung was in in two minds about all this
you know one part of him admired the
Christian churches for presenting what
he called a bull walk against direct
experience he liked that idea because it
protected people I mean the American
writer Annie Dillard has written

(47:35):
extensively about this do you know Annie
Dillard I'm not familiar
no she's written a number of books and
one of her books she says uh people in
churches
who ask the Holy Spirit to come down
upon them and bless them have no idea
what what they're asking for and she

(47:56):
says they should wear safety helmets on
their heads in case what they're asking
for actually does happen and they should
go in with those bicycle helmets hard
hats and um she's a mystical writer in
the United States and I love her work
very much
um

(48:17):
uh teaching a stone to talk is one of
her books yeah I have heard that title
yeah and um another book is called uh I
think it's called um
holy
Holy Ground holy the ground something
like that and she obviously is on the

(48:39):
same page here as young and young says
that you know the Christianity is dying
because people aren't having first-hand
experiences of their of the source of
their being and that the church was too
much of a bull walk and a defensive wall
against direct experience but as as you

(49:02):
said people who want direct experience
can end up and do end up schizophrenic
because we're not used to it you see
we're not used to we're not we don't
have the
um
the values the ego is that organizing
principle of the psyche when you get rid
of it entirely there is no organizing

(49:22):
principle you know something like Newman
talking about Central version and the
process that when when animals are
evolving you know into humans there are
all these instinctual reactions and
there get to be so many there needs to
be a central principle that can choose
between them and when you just
completely just destroy that
um you're not functioning so Jung used

(49:46):
to say that the West is the head of the
East with technology and science but the
East is way ahead of the West in terms
of religion mysticism and and the
numinous you know the experience of the
Divine
and I think that in the east in India in
particular and also calls Tibet

(50:09):
um China's in a different position
because it's been officially atheist
since Maori Dawn although I can see a
reaction happening quite soon in China
as people are are not going to be happy
with them but when you go to China and
you you ask them at what their religion
is they're like well we're atheists and
then we're going to burn all this paper

(50:30):
money so that our ancestral Spirit can
have it in the afterlife during the
funeral and then we're going to and
you're like wait a minute so you do no
no we're atheists we're Communists we're
atheists and they'll continue to tell
you about and I mean Americans do the
same thing when you when you turn
mythology into something that is scary
and of the past you're blind out as
functioning in the present and then it

(50:51):
is unconscious there were a lot of
Chinese here in Australia where I live
in fact in my city Melbourne
um they I looked it up recently there
are 485
000 Chinese in my city so it's just
under a half a million Chinese in my

(51:12):
city alone the reason they're here is
because the standard of living here is
very high in fact the standard of living
in Australia if you don't mind me saying
is higher than America sure because we
have free public health you know we you
can go and see the doctor and it all is
free

(51:33):
we don't have that Fiasco that you had
about Obamacare and things like that we
have a system which is quite similar to
Sweden health services are free and
there's lots of doctors and lots of
nurses and and of course food here is
relatively cheap compared to China where

(51:54):
it's expensive so a lot of Chinese are
coming here but I've met several Chinese
I had quite a few Chinese students when
I taught at the University and yes I'd
ask them do they have a religion and the
first answer was always no
because they're supposed to be atheists
but after you talk to them a bit they

(52:15):
say they pray to the deities and that
they Light Skin Sense and candles and
and have intermediaries that they
worship so it's a kind of a
schizophrenic culture really or perhaps
that's a bit hard
um perhaps it's the same as America you
turn everything into a religion and then

(52:36):
you don't see religion anymore and so
people aren't aware that their politics
have become that or you know we don't
even atheism is like a religion in the
United States when someone becomes an
atheist they have to be enlightened and
they're Superior and they're very
Freudian and intellectual and it's like
your whole life is about this lack of
belief in something that is itself a

(52:56):
religion you were created it's a
religion and it's particularly in its
dogmatism and the way it can you know
basically shapes your whole life but
I've I've found with the the Chinese
that
it's almost like it's used in terms the
Persona versus the soul
you know the Persona of the Chinese is

(53:17):
atheist but the soul is not atheist and
never has been and so this suggests that
China is a very dangerous country
because if the Persona and the Soul are
out of whack and they don't actually
relate to each other then the potential
for splitting of the personality of

(53:37):
schizophrenia or dissociation is always
there that's how that's happened to my
sister
um she like me was brought up very
religious you know I had a totally
full-on religious upbringing and so did
my sister she rejected it intellectually
as she became more educated she read

(53:59):
existentialism and Freud and nature and
she got me reading existentialism when I
was about 17 which was probably too
young to understand existentialism
but after a while she clung to this
atheist idea and became progressively
schizophrenic

(54:20):
um and I did speak to her about it and
she thought I was part of the devil you
know because she developed paranoia but
my family
uh is Irish and the Irish are inherently
religious you know no two ways about it
um if you say you're atheist in Ireland
you're basically lying you're trying to

(54:43):
be an atheist but your soul was still
religious so with my sister she said she
was atheist but actually she's she was
of the sets the same psyche that I had
and I can't get rid of religion I can
I've tried to but I can't and I don't
want to anymore because well I don't
know that anyone can it's the are you
honest about it and how it is

(55:04):
functioning in your life are you
conscious of that I mean like going back
to China you know the Persona can turn
on a dime but the soul can't you know
you have this modernist Marxist cultural
project where you come in and say okay
everybody's atheist now this is what you
believe and this is this new way of life
you can do that in 50 years but you can
get rid of the history yeah the the body
like the the that is still this felt

(55:26):
rootedness
thousands of years ancestor worship and
families and solution and and Buddhism
as well apparently Richard Wilhelm uh or
Richard will Wilhelm as we say in
English wrote a book in the 40s called
the soul of China
but of course he wrote it before Mao

(55:48):
Zedong and a friend of mine is sending
me this book it's in the mail now I
can't wait to read it because I think
the soul of China is going to come up
again and when that comes up again we're
going to get a very different China to
the one we see today
um with Xi Jinping as the presiding

(56:10):
oligarch over the whole thing of 1.6
billion people which makes America look
small in terms of the population
and as for my country you know we have
fewer people than you have in California
and so we're sitting at the foot of
China
sheep farms in Australia that are the

(56:30):
size of Alabama
with very few people on them
well America when I lived in America
they called Australia British Texans
yeah
we have a we have wide horizons with
nothing in them you know it's massive
massive continent harm it's the same

(56:51):
size as Americans Australia
geographically
without Alaska but um we only have 24
million people in this massive country
and so we are I think quite afraid of
China because it's in an aggressive
expansionist mood at the moment it's

(57:12):
clearly already moved on Hong Kong
taking it back
and it's about to of course despite
Nancy Pelosi's visits
um take take Taiwan back
that's expressed policy of current
Chinese uh political

(57:32):
strategy and the course they will
probably come closer they took over
South Vietnam and of course as you well
know America fought that war and lost it
and Australia supported America fighting
against the Communists from the north
when there's a lot of building projects
and things in Africa you know that where

(57:53):
they're building hospitals roads bridges
for memorates and there was a funny
Twitter exchange a couple months ago
where somebody was like the Chinese are
you know the Africans want the Chinese
to come they don't want the Americans
and the British and the saying is when
the Chinese come we get a hospital when
the Americans and the British come we
get a lecture and a British and American

(58:14):
person responded on the thing and they
said well I mean you have to understand
there's no such thing as a free lunch
and communist and then an African said
and there goes the lecture that is so
funny that is so true Australians are
like Americans you know we we happily
give out lectures to countries you know
like Africa or African there's I think

(58:36):
you give out a little bit more Health
Care than the state so
and the British too give them lectures
but America uh China wants to build
hospitals and schools not only Africa
but this is all the Pacific Islands like
Samoa
um Fiji all these countries in the
Pacific and China want wants them a

(58:57):
strategic basis for their expansionist
policy
this expansionist policy is for some
reason called the Belton Road the belt
and Road policy and of course naturally
America is shaking in its boots because
of the world order and our mythology is
under threat that no one can world order

(59:18):
is under threat no one can do anything
without us approving of it and and that
myth is ending and we do Americans
resist making a new myth you know yes
the the American Myth is this is
basically that it rules the world you
know that it's the policemen of the of
the world and China's in the process of

(59:39):
challenging that and um already has
outmaneuvered with America in terms of
its gross national product and its
Economic Development so Australia is one
of a very close allies of America
um is shaking because we're wondering
we're wondering if we've made allies
with the wrong country we we made allies

(01:00:01):
with America after the second world war
America saved Australia from the
Japanese just as it saved Europe from
Hitler
um as well America did a massive amount
of good work in the second world war but
it's a Pacific Theater was focused on
helping Australia say so our country and

(01:00:24):
they did a marvelous job but but now
we're wondering whether we need better
alliance with China so we too feel
totally confused about the world order
but we're talking politics now yeah the
religious thing is bubbling away under
the surface you know I mean always

(01:00:47):
they're always and it's hard to know
what the answer will be about China on
the brink of some kind of religious
breakthrough I used to teach at the
Young Institute in Zurich
for quite a few years actually 10 years
and most of my students were Asians

(01:01:09):
um Chinese Japanese
Thailand
Taiwan also Vietnamese cambodians and
Koreans
we're there in huge numbers and I would
think to myself
you know what's going on in Asia why are
they so hungry for York and the biggest

(01:01:31):
pop band in the world is called BTS and
their work is all based on your
um they've they've released a series of
albums based on the book by Murray Stein
called the map of the soul and they
released released an album called the
Persona and then something called

(01:01:53):
archetypes and something about soul
and that's the biggest selling band in
the world so there's some very
extraordinary things going on in Asia at
the moment
and of course in Russia there are
extraordinary things too the the Russian
Orthodox church has
re-bonded with the Russian government

(01:02:16):
um so there's not there's no connection
disconnect anymore between the Russian
church and the Russian state
well so you know this is an
extraordinary thing
um
which is unprecedented and we used to
think of Russia as the secular country
and then communist of course based on

(01:02:37):
Marx
but now I think the Marxist stuff's
flying away quickly
and there's this sort of fundamentalist
Fusion between religion and the state
and Russia is a very dangerous country
of course
um always has been probably always will
be

(01:02:58):
so the whole world order is Shifting
under our feet well it's a dangerous
world I mean I think the bigger through
line in our conversation has been the
the benefits and the risks of direct
experience yeah and I know that you have
said that you're not super comfortable
talking about clinical realities or
therapy but at the same time I mean I

(01:03:19):
don't know why you'll feel like you know
more about therapy than probably most
clinicians at least the ones that send
resumes to me
um and like the now now now look big
what no I'm not and I'm not saying that
they're not good clinicians it's that we
don't teach the history of the
profession I mean
cognitive behavioral therapy came in in

(01:03:40):
the 80s and and it's just the ego is all
there is here's some ego management
strategies you know clap your hands and
tell the anxiety to stop yeah and I mean
what I notice
two is like the the institutes the
jungian institutes in the 80s have
become incredibly analytical I mean
they're analyzing trauma but they're not
treating it and they're you know
somebody who has a dissociative disorder

(01:04:01):
you're telling them about the myth of
Pericles you know but you're not doing
any kind of direct experience there's
this distance and then in those out of
those institutes a lot of people a lot
of Union analysts leave
um like Arnold Mendel and he does
process therapy and Sidra and how stone
that do voice dialogue and the thing
that those have in common is that
they're directly experiential one

(01:04:21):
they're not analytical Styles they're
based on Jung's map
but then also they're somatic they're
using the body you know can you say
anything about that or do you know
anything about that that point with the
Institutes
well I think you're right and I think
there's been a book recently written
about this which I mentioned before
Peter Kingsley

(01:04:44):
cattle cattle felk is is something to do
with the ceremonies uh in funerals
um
the book subtitled the book is CJ Young
and the end of humanity
which is a rather dramatic sounding
title

(01:05:05):
um but
I think that the jungian
project is in danger of if not already
has lost its Soul actually there's a lot
of infighting in the institutes I don't
know the politics behind that but
there's like three competing ones now
where people left and made their own and
I mean it well in London which I'm very

(01:05:25):
familiar with because I'm often in
London there are five competing jungian
institutes it's already a small little
piece of clinicians or jungian I mean to
be cutting those into fractions seems
like uh Freud Freud had a wonderful
phrase for this he called it the
narcissism of minor differences

(01:05:46):
and I'm working for next week I'm
actually working for one of the London
institutes and they're sort of not
friendly with the other jungian
institutes so it's one of the
disagreements I mean why do they fight
these fighting this fighting indicates
the field is fragmented to say the least
and being fragmented how can it function

(01:06:09):
properly so I think you're right and a
lot of people that get disillusioned
with jungian clinical training
for instance I was giving a series of
lectures last month in October
2022 and there was a fellow on came on

(01:06:29):
who was studying at the Jung Institute
in Zurich and I was giving contextual
lectures about where young had come from
what are the major influences on his
thinking from Germany and of course
Switzerland and France
Etc and he said at the end that they
never get taught that at the Young

(01:06:50):
Institute they just get the kind of
these are the archetypes this is the
shadow this is the ego they just get
that model uh taught to them but they
don't get the whole intellectual
development well it's one a lot of
jungian clinicians don't know how to
apply it they know how to talk about it
but I mean it's a map but you need a

(01:07:11):
technique
um and I think you just get stuck in
analysis forever and you never directly
encounter any of these things or if you
do it's on accident you know
um I mean one maybe good jumping off
point into James Hillman in the red book
is talking about direct experience
um yeah if I mean if anyone isn't

(01:07:33):
familiar he's listening you know James
Hillman is the first what
non-provisional director of The
Institute
um and he you know by all accounts he's
a very good analyst
and a a brilliant mind but never really
deals with a lot of things going on you
know maybe the father wound that brings
a ton of male jungkins into the jungian

(01:07:54):
lens
um he you know
has a falling out with the Institute
develops archetypal theology there are
archetypal uh what do you call it or
archetypal psychology which I think no
one really ever figured out how to
practice it including Hillman you know
he came up with something that he could

(01:08:15):
talk about but he couldn't he even he
did not know how to do it because I mean
he took the idea of the self and the ego
away and I mean everything that I could
sell about archetypal psychology is that
you basically push people into a pagan
religious experience with no intellect
and no sense of self and the symbol
becomes reality and I mean I I don't
know what that would do but it doesn't
sound helpful and bro I never really

(01:08:37):
found any accounts of him and even doing
that doesn't happen did you you do you
know that I worked with Hillman for
three years yeah so that was why we
wanted to get your perspective what I'd
heard you say before and correct me
where I'm wrong here is that you know
your Institute had sent you to work with
Hillman and then Hillman decided that
you didn't know as much as he did and so
that you couldn't guest host the radio
show but he wanted to analyze you which

(01:08:58):
seems kind of arrogant there I mean I
mean people who don't have the
vocabulary or the learning that I have
I'm not bored by there's still
interesting conversations I mean
apparently I mean that seems like
strange so then he said that he should
become his patient basically yes don't
forget though the age difference I've

(01:09:19):
worked I started working with Hillman
when I was 28. yeah I'm now 70.
um when I was 28 Hillman was I think 58.
so there were 30 years difference so he
was a good generation or more older than
me and my institution which was funded

(01:09:39):
by New York
um Partners foundation in New York City
uh wanted me to have conversations with
Hillman that might might end up in books
published about post so-called
post-jungian psychology and
um but Hillman is such a or was such a

(01:10:01):
controversial figure you know he'd been
as you said he'd been booted out of
Zurich because he was too radical well
he also slept with a patient and he
slept with a patient who happened to be
the wife of a clergyman yeah um in in
Switzerland it scandalized everybody

(01:10:23):
um his his uh analyst C.A Meyer I mean
he was kind of in a fight with his
mentor too which was maybe why he was
acting out like that did you know CA
Meyer anything about him no I seemed no
to not be a popular person when you no I
didn't know C.A Maya I knew my I knew
Marie Louise Von France and I met Edward

(01:10:43):
Edinger and I met Robert Johnson
and June Singer
and all these sorts of people Thomas
ones are probably more fun to meet Meyer
yeah I think was one of the best of the
lot actually Tom Moore very grounded
fellow an excellent man
um until his writing reminds me of James

(01:11:06):
Hollis they seem similar yes James
Hollis is also a good friend of mine
um used to live in Texas I think he
lives in Washington DC now beautiful
yeah Thomas Moore used to live
close to me in Texas and then he moved

(01:11:26):
up to I think the Boston Cambridge area
and um
but
um where were we we were saying we were
talking about um just Hellman being your
mentor and that you know he was kind of
a talented analyst who wanted to develop
something that wasn't Indian that was
hillmanian but I don't think he ever
found the words for it

(01:11:48):
no you're exactly right I don't know how
you know so much about this stuff
because you're a young man how do you
know so much I just read everything I
mean I think the profession is you
should know the history of the
profession and then that means that you
you read the papers these people publish
and you get a sense of their psychology
and and you get a sense of the things
going on in The Institute you know as

(01:12:09):
much as I do so I should be interviewing
you
um but you know you're half my age and
um but look frankly you're absolutely
right everything you say is spot on and
that is that Hillman wanted to go beyond
your and he bragged about it in a
fashion which I thought was a bit
offensive actually Ian was a genius you

(01:12:31):
know you read things like the souls
curtain he's talking about his Discovery
but not able to articulate what it is
you know it's a Trope or a truism and he
he's not ever
he never was really able to
um I think separate from Young in a
mature way you know you have the this

(01:12:51):
kind of father wound that brings I mean
and Hillman really I wanted to lead into
a larger question which is I mean this
maybe sounds a little controversial but
I worry for myself I mean do you think
that male jungians go want nuts at the
end of their life do you want do all of
them do that because there seem to be a
lot of people who you know they have an
overidentified anima you know they have

(01:13:12):
heightened intuitive feelings since and
probably some pain and they're attracted
to their psychology and then they get in
it and they start to get to the end of
their career and then they're angry like
well I didn't get to save the world I
did everything right I mapped all this
stuff out I taught forever but the world
is still a mess why am I not the Messiah
and and you see them I mean Hillman was

(01:13:34):
yelling on on right wing talk radio at
the end of his life about how we'd been
doing therapy for 40 years and the world
wasn't better so what was the point and
like these problems have gone on since
the Bronze Age you're not going to fix
them but that isn't the reason that we
try
yeah I think you're right you you know

(01:13:55):
too much oh you you know too much I mean
I I don't even need to tell you well if
you were there I mean I'm listening to
the recordings of this you know and some
torrent that I downloaded in college
like a big computer file of all these
jungian talks and appearances you know
but I don't
um I think a lot of jungian men do go a

(01:14:17):
bit alright at the end of their careers
um they've developed close as you say an
identified animal they've often got
strong intuition and feeling
their relationship with reality is often
rather tenuous yeah
um because they've been which makes them
effective when they're young and it
makes them yeah they're hers when they

(01:14:39):
are dying essentially like toward the
end of his life Hillman I think had a
deep father wound a deep father wound
that's why he joined up with Robert
Blythe because Robert Bly trades on the
father womb and so did more I mean all
of those guys I mean more was a little
nicer than Bly but he he still had this
tendency to be Evangelical about the

(01:15:01):
Shadows you mean Robert Moore you're
Robert Moore yeah I thought you might
talk about Tom Moore
Robert Moore would talk about the shadow
like he was an Evangelical Pastor
sometimes and you know the poor Robert
Moore's life ended very tragically well
it's funny because I didn't know that
when I was reading him but he it was
scaring me because he's so gentle and

(01:15:22):
kind and then he would start talking
about no but the shadow is 100 evil in
black and if you take a step in there it
will eat you alive and you you can never
integrate it and it was like this is
anti-jungian there's something in you
that is very dark and very scary and
then I was reading more about him and
come to find out I mean there were
medical things going on too but you know
he does essentially shoot himself and

(01:15:44):
his wife you know at the end of his life
yeah
his life ended tragically in a suicide
murder and
um you know what does that say about
jungi in Psychology you know sense how
dangerous it is
um Robert Moore I I loved his work but
like you I sensed there was something

(01:16:05):
unresolved in it uh he's stuff on the
shadow wasn't good
um it was like the satanic panic I mean
it it was wild I'm just so reactionary
and against his against his whole
persona I was shocked for years when I
found that he'd shot himself in the head

(01:16:27):
um after shooting his wife and
um
it just left me speechless
um these people are supposed to be the
Guardians are our soul but if there's
things in us that we don't ever directly
experience you know that we just
described you know that comes out and I
think that's why psychology is changing

(01:16:48):
and I think that I mean that's kind of
the through line of this conversation
you can do it in religion politics
whatever but
um you know you you feel when you read
Hillman that something's wrong you know
yeah and you feel when you read more
that something's wrong you read James
Hollis and you feel like that person is
a lot uh better actualized and okay you

(01:17:09):
know I don't feel that James Hollis is
quite integrated yeah he's there's
nothing in there that is a red flag
no but there were red flags in Robert
Moore and red flags in Hillman and they
start men's rights movements you know
all of those guys go kind of right-wing
and and start these men's rate movements
at the end of their career
I don't know if you've read my essays on

(01:17:31):
Hillman have you or not I read um the
unmaking of a psychologist and then I
read all the people who were jumping on
to to critique that with their responses
I used to pay for the Wiley library and
I got so sick of dealing with the Wiley
Library I would they would send me my
login information six months later and I
would be like well can I have six months
free or refunded no you can't and that's

(01:17:52):
just fine so so over it well I can send
anyone who's listening who wants them I
can send them to you for free you know I
have the PDF files but I basically said
in those essays which by the way I
published in Britain not in America
because I thought there were too many
fans of Hillman in America who would

(01:18:12):
object to what I had to say but I
believe so many Americans first
experience with young you know that was
just the way they knew of it
but the father wound is huge in Hillman
and he he enacted it with Jung you know
he tried to basically say that he'd gone
beyond young he's better than you all

(01:18:35):
um but I think he nailed it earlier and
you said that in his practice
Hillman was still jungian I I once asked
him at the end of a session
I said Jim
everything that we've done is so jungian
I can't I'm waiting for the Hillman part

(01:18:56):
and he just looked at me and he said I
haven't yet developed a practice in line
with my theory so that there was a big
gap between his practice and his theory
he read him and he's telling everyone
how post-jungian it is but being an
analysis with him as I was he was

(01:19:18):
unbelievably Orthodox Union I couldn't
even I couldn't even tell one bit of the
analysis that wasn't purely jungian I
heard him yelling about how jungianism
resolves you know removes the symbol by
analyzing it and you have to go into the
symbol and I heard him yelling about
archetypal psychology I never heard a

(01:19:38):
case study of him practicing it but I
can find anywhere no he didn't he
doesn't have even one case study in all
of his 24 books which tells you
something doesn't it I mean I mean in
your your's work is full of case studies
he was you're when you start trying to
give other people the medicine you need

(01:19:59):
you know you're saying that other people
need to have a direct experience yeah
it's one that you haven't had
and I think he wanted he wanted some
kind of ego dissolving spiritual
transcendental moment that he never he
never was able to find or go into
he did he did toward the end was aware
of of what he was missing in for that

(01:20:21):
book maybe was that experience for him
yes yes very good point red book but
also there's a book called archetypal
process I don't know if you've seen it
uh yeah that's one that is on my eBay
alerts but it's very expensive so yeah
just like your Routledge books if
somebody sells one use and they don't
know what it's worth I'll buy it but I
don't have the money right now it's

(01:20:42):
called archetypal process it was edited
by David Ray Griffin the title of the
subtitle of archetypal process is Jung
um Whitehead and Hillman
and Hillman writes some fascinating
stuff in there and he admits that his

(01:21:03):
work missing is missing a whole
dimension which is the metaphysical the
spiritual dimension
just she was longing for so much that he
almost was trying to like resurrect
paganism or something you know exactly
he was trying to resurrect paganism
he hated Christianity partly because he

(01:21:23):
was Jewish but he also hated Judaism so
he did not like monotheism he wanted the
Divine to be broken up into he didn't
like any form of monotheism whether his
own Judaism or Christianity and he
didn't like Islam either so
he wanted us to go back to the Greek

(01:21:45):
pantheon
um the polytheism of the Greeks I think
he would have gone even farther back he
wanted us to go back to the mother
called you know to the the Venus uh
figurines
of the of the Stone Age I touch if you
know if you can hear the torrential rain
pounding on my roof here I'm not able to

(01:22:06):
um yeah that's good so anyway I think um
when I was studying with Hillman and
being analyzed by him as a fellow or
Ralph Moore who came down from Alberta
Canada
and he asked Hillman a question which I
thought was completely spot on he said

(01:22:26):
how come your work is asking us to go
back to the religion of the ancient
Greeks before Christianity you're asking
us to basically worship people like
Athena and and Artemis and Aphrodite
you know they're all of course the
female goddesses

(01:22:47):
um he wasn't terribly interested in the
male Gods except for Hermes I think I
really do think he wanted to go back to
the like the Venus of villendorf you
know and crawl into a cave of the great
mother
and uh anyway this guy from Alberta said
why should we go back to the Greek

(01:23:07):
religion when even the Greeks got rid of
their own polytheism in favor of
Christianity because the Greeks were
were one of the first cultures of the
world to convert to Christianity and
and he says to Hillman
why did the Greeks lose faith and belief

(01:23:28):
in their own religions
their own many polytheisms and Hillman
couldn't answer it so there was a you
know he was just silent it's a great
question and that didn't happen after
the filming when he was asked
he basically had nothing to say and um
I suppose

(01:23:48):
the visitor from Canada basically
thought to himself to shade you know I I
you know uh Checkmate have you um have
you read the well meant for the dad the
uh Hellman and uh Sanu samshadani yes
for a British Journal oh I didn't know

(01:24:09):
that you had written a review but I have
to look that up I I was impressed I mean
I'm not wild I mean it seemed to be
especially in the beginning some of the
best writing that Hillman did it's
thoughtful and
um there's death to it uh I I liked it
yeah me too I liked it as well and uh I
like anything that Sonu sham Dasani does

(01:24:30):
um I think he's a very balanced one of
the good things about Sonu shamsasani is
that he's
he he's a scholar he's not a clinician
he's an historian of Young's ideas and
he's he knows the whole context in which
it all occurs and naturally he's his

(01:24:51):
course the editor of the red book as
well yeah so I mean he kind of is the
reason it was published too I mean he I
mean you have Richard and all who's
attacking young so maybe that motivates
the family to want to defend him but I
mean my understanding was Sanu basically
got these copies of where Yoon could
mailed the red book to the publisher but
it was not a complete draft and said

(01:25:13):
unless you let me publish the big one
I'm going to publish the perfect one and
then the family gave him permission
that's right but actually coming back to
the red book I think what we can see
there is that direct experience of the
the god or the gods or the numina or
whatever you want to call it I don't
really care I'm not attached to a

(01:25:34):
particular language
um is very disruptive
um I mean Young's red book is basically
an analysis of his own psychosis yeah I
think he could not find an analyst for
him and he tried to basically become
that no he tried to analyze himself
through his own psychosis and I think

(01:25:56):
it's rather Coy and child the jungians
to constantly refer to this phase of his
life as his creative encounter with the
unconscious
you know anyone with half an inkling
about Psychiatry can see that Jung was
struggling with a full-blown psychosis

(01:26:17):
and even there's a debate about how much
of it was a loss of control and how much
was active imagination and know what
mindset is he in when he's doing this
because he was seeing patients I mean he
was punching the clock he's peeling the
meat off his soul to talk directly to
God and then yeah talking out and going
to the don't forget what I said to you
about China I think Young was a good
example of China his Persona was still

(01:26:39):
intact he was still acting as a a
respect respectable psychiatrist with
his patients but within himself he was a
seething cauldron of psychotic activity
like he's a volcano that had exploded
he wanted to make it conscious and go

(01:27:01):
all the way to the bottom yeah he did
and he went all the way to the bottom he
he does say in some of his essays that
the psyche is like a volcano which can
which can blow its top at any moment
well of course and it's in all of us
it's in all of us whether or not we
pretend that it isn't there or wish it
away or eat try and cling to the yeah

(01:27:21):
that
um partly it's a father wound talk about
coming back to the father wound I mean
Jung was terribly wounded by his father
you know because you'll wanted to help
his father understand the interior
dimension of Christianity but his father
wasn't interested in any interior
Dimension he basically thought his son

(01:27:43):
was mad and then and he had lost his own
faith that his father had so he was
refusing the pathway that was being
offered to him to try and reconcile some
of his Persona and I think it's a
classic
case of healing the edible complex you
know young had out done his father but
he wanted he didn't want to destroy his

(01:28:05):
father like Oedipus did he wanted to
remake his father he wanted to redeem
his father
and of course then the whole thing gets
acted out with Freud Freud was and Meyer
and then Meyer through Hellman you know
and then it's to a certain extent you I
would be fascinated to know how much a
father can plot the father complex came

(01:28:26):
up and what Hillman was telling you
about your analysis yeah well my uh it
won't surprise you to learn that my
analysis was about my father wound now
we give other people the medicine that
we need you know I don't want to think
I mean I have had a very big father
wound and I I fronted up to Hillman one

(01:28:49):
day and I just said guess what Jim said
what's happening I said my father has
decided to come over here
and meet you and and talk with me about
my analysis and illness
is getting close it wasn't so brave
anymore

(01:29:10):
my father just you know this is where
synchronicity hits the the road you know
the rubber hits the road I was working
on my father complex and my father felt
it
it doesn't matter that I was in America
and he was
12 000 miles away in Australia he felt

(01:29:30):
it in the the psyche knows no it could
be through a small gap of communication
and inflection of tone yeah I mean so
much of what we're aware of is not what
we're aware of
so coming back to Young
um he's break he split with Freud really
totally fragmented him and a psychosis

(01:29:52):
resulted with which unions
pretend to domesticate at some point
well that's what I wanted to ask you
about is you don't like the red book
whereas I do most jungians do I agree
with you that most people most they
sanitize it and they act like oh he made
this beautiful work of art his diary
cool doesn't it look alchemical and it

(01:30:12):
was like no this is a deep and profound
suffering that is yeah partially
reconciled because it is an
unreconcilable pain you know that he's
going into and I mean huge pain
but you think that it hits him trying to
be too prophetic or you don't like the
the presentation of the of the tone in
the book The Persona I don't like the

(01:30:34):
tone of the book I was asked to write on
it by Murray Stein in Zurich and I did
but I told Murray
Murray I don't like the red book I think
it's psychotic I think that that the the
prophetic tone is too strong I find it
too strident
you know chapters called the things

(01:30:55):
which are to come or things which have
yet to come or seven sermons to the dead
you know it's it's written in the tone
of like the Bible almost well it's like
people scraping their fingernails down a
Blackboard or something it just got on
my nerves well if he was coming down the
mountain with it to bring it to the

(01:31:16):
masses and starting a cult and treating
himself like the prophet and and you
know making Jordan Peterson type YouTube
videos I think that would be a problem
but it was something he chewed on
privately which you know I feel like I
chew on things privately through ART and
writing and it doesn't look that good
enough you know frankly I I think Jung
had every bride to do the red book

(01:31:37):
to save himself from schizophrenia
basically but I don't know if we have a
right to read it do you think he would
have published it no he did go to
Publishers at one point he thought about
it yeah but I I don't think I think he's
I think his better mind would have
convinced him not to get it published

(01:31:58):
and there's rooms in bollingen that the
family is still guarding you know no one
knows what's in there no one knows there
are whole chapters of his of his
autobiography that still haven't been
published because they're scandalous
I was sitting on a casket once in Zurich
and the fellow who owned the premises

(01:32:18):
came in he said you know what you're
sitting on I said no he said there are
three chapters in there from memories
dreams Reflections that the family has
refused to allow to be published one of
the chapters was on his marriage to his
wife
another chapter was on his lifelong
affair with his mistress Tony Wolfe

(01:32:42):
which the family didn't want to become
public did they have an arrangement I
mean she was traveling with him and Emma
at some points I mean we could
hypothesize it was they had an
arrangement but feminists today would
say bully for you you know your bloody
Arrangements you know why didn't the
wife what why didn't your wife have a

(01:33:03):
lover you'll you'll basically said I
need my lover because she is my animal
well today that just wouldn't wash
well there are places where he's
strangely conservative you know like you
bring up in um the how to read young
book that his theories about anime and
anima and his own writing paved the way
for a sexual psychology and politics

(01:33:25):
that he says is not right but he's
opening the door to that and the
implications of what he is saying is
that you know that this is part of us
and I mean or you know and I think they
talk about it in a lot not for the dead
too but there's places where he wants
The Descent and then the return he
doesn't want anyone to just descend into
things so when the modernist or the

(01:33:45):
transcendentalists go way far into their
abstract art he hates it he wants them
to go there feel that and then come back
and bring it into the world of the ego
which is he you know that's kind of a
conservative
position you know not politically but
very conservative so Jung was a bag of

(01:34:07):
contradictions you know so he he gave us
the the entrance into the study of
bisexuality in the psyche talking about
the anima in men and the Animus in women
um James Hillman blew that out of the
water when he said if the animal is an
archetype why should it be limited to

(01:34:27):
men
and if the Animus is an archetype why
should it be limited to women and so
Hillman spoke about anima and animus in
men and women which is one of the ways
by the way that Hillman was genuinely
post Julian because jungians don't
subscribe to that theory that Hillman

(01:34:47):
used Jung's logic against his own
argument
and I agreed with Hillman on that I
thought that was a bit of an advance but
if you read um Jung's essay called women
in Europe which talks about the
increasing masculinization of women
and he could see right back in the 20s

(01:35:08):
that women were becoming more masculine
they were becoming more like men and in
my country and I'm sure in yours women
now demand the right to do the same
sports that men do
so he was relatively culturally
conservative too and I mean I don't
think there was I mean there's places
that are definitely problematic by

(01:35:29):
today's standards of what is what is
okay to say about race but he had this
attitude of it's okay to go Adventure in
India it's okay to go look at yoga but
you don't do it you're white you can't
do that I mean and I I just I'm trying
to read him with some Grace but that's
in there you know it is in there and and
just as I was saying before his let's

(01:35:51):
say women in Europe ends up with this
rather deadening sentence he said men
should remain men and women should
remain women and maybe if there had been
you know a talk radio or something it
would have been Jung who became the
crank at the end of his life and you
know and uh Campbell was kind of headed

(01:36:12):
that way I mean there's there's kind of
he died pretty early but there's some
bizarre talks at the end of his life
where he's screaming at college students
about being Marxist and stuff the
sorry I don't mean to cut you off there
no no so I don't know what Young would
have said about transsexual
operations no doubt he would have liked

(01:36:33):
that no when men becoming women and
women becoming men
um he would have been outrageously
against it he would say that if you
ident if you're a man and you identify
with your feminine side
then what happens to your masculine side
he'd say it would fall into the
unconscious become repressed and then it

(01:36:55):
would come back and haunt you well but
if you're not able to hold your enema to
the point where you're saying that you
need to have a harem because it doesn't
fit into your wife that maybe is a you
know there's maybe something going on in
him well he had even Tony wolf couldn't
deal with the Alchemy I mean she
basically left because he got to it to
Alchemy yeah yeah

(01:37:18):
no Tony wolf
um of course ran with his theory of
types in fact in fact I think it was
Tony wolf who suggested the theory of
types to heal and he took it up and
developed it just as it was the other
woman that Jung had a vegan affair with
Sabina Spiel rhyme from Russia some

(01:37:38):
people like he wrote In the book that he
had they made music together or Matt
like it was kind of allegorical do you
feel like that was a sexual Affair
there's disagreements it was no have you
seen the film A Dangerous Method I do I
don't know that I agree with I mean the
the s m part of it or whatever
um but I don't know what's true and

(01:37:59):
what's not true except it's important to
know that the movie the conversations
between him and Freud are almost
complete transactions or like they're
only all they're like complete
transcriptions of what he wrote that
they had like the rap in the bookcase
the the director of that film that
Canadian fellow
um is it Fincher Fincher do that one
I can't remember who it was but he was a

(01:38:21):
Freudian so he was actually he had an
agenda which was to make it all look bad
and he certainly did make more you know
look bad in A Dangerous Method and he
made you all look like a a beast of
sexuality with those scenes with Sabina
spill Ryan

(01:38:41):
um but anyway the point I was making was
it was sabine's Bill Ryan who said to
you all that she felt there was a
masculine element in women and a
feminine man in a conversation during
their sexual affair I don't know if that
s m stuff happened at all that could be
just part of the movie

(01:39:02):
but
Jung said that's a great idea and he ran
with it and developed his theory of
contracexuality so
you know you'll owe a lot to the women
around him and worked with him
especially Tony wolf and Sabina should
be all right but he didn't always give

(01:39:23):
them the acknowledgment that they
deserve so he was a typical patriarch a
man of his time and what kind of an
appalling life did Emma Young have as he
went she was the one that paid for all
of it I mean it was her failed his mouth
yeah when he couldn't have explored any
of that without the funding that I grew
up because it was not a profitable

(01:39:44):
Endeavor he was very rich one of the
richest women in Switzerland
and um you know he lost his job he had
to give up his job because he was going
psychotic
at the end of that scene in the movie I
do love
um where Freud and young are going to
the different places on the boat and
Freud is trying to have this father

(01:40:05):
posture and have authority over young
and then Jung is going upstairs because
his wife has booked him first class and
Floyd is going down into the yeah he's
and Ewan kind of says oh I'm sorry my
wife booked the tickets I didn't yes
I love that moment actually uh it's
quite moving because Freud was the one

(01:40:26):
without money and he was Jewish too I
mean he dealt with anti-Semitism a lot
yeah and Jung had a fortune so he didn't
need to work he didn't even need to see
patients because they had enough money
and um his financial situation was very
secure and so

(01:40:46):
um and then of course late in life what
midlife actually a lot of American rich
people came over to Switzerland to fund
him as well like the melons yeah and you
know the melon uh the melons who had
been funding major universities I think
it was Yale University

(01:41:06):
um and set up the bollingen series with
Princeton University press they paid for
all of that so that Jung's uh German uh
writings could all be translated into
English and published in in America that
he didn't pay for any of that it was all
funded by his um benefactors so he he

(01:41:30):
had a dream run when it comes to money
was never an issue not like most of us
uh money is is a big issue and it was
for Freud as well well that's the reason
Tap Root therapy existed is you know we
left to start this because I was tired
of being um forced to kick patients out
when they didn't have insurance and I

(01:41:51):
wanted to remember a famous line that uh
Hillman told me and while I was working
with him in Texas and he said he said
everybody's worried about how to
terminate the analysis you know when
does the transference end and he said he
said to me and there were others there
in the room

(01:42:12):
the transference ends when the client
runs out of money
[Laughter]
I don't I I don't know how you afford to
be in analysis for seven years or
whatever before you go to Zurich and get
your you know second master's degree on
your analytical training I know maybe
that's one of the reasons that
jungianism is dying I say pure practice

(01:42:32):
well it's so expensive that's why it's
dying but there are some analysts who
have a social conscience and a sliding
scale so you know if you don't have
enough money some analysts will see you
anyway we can charge you less but
um Hillman didn't seem to have sliding
scale I paid the standard fee well he

(01:42:55):
knew that he could get the money out of
the Institute that was sending you over
probably he he knew that I was being
funded by big money and he wanted to
share of that too as he did and I don't
Grudge him that because he gave me a lot
of time I saw him twice a week
for three years except when he was in

(01:43:15):
Japan he was always heading off to Japan
I don't know that part of his life I
wonder what was interested in there
Japanese were very interested in his
stuff
um and um the Japanese unions today are
very much shaped by Hillman's ideas
you know the architect Leon career here

(01:43:37):
did poundbury England and
um he's an urban planner new urbanist
but he we had interviewed him Leon Creer
he designed the town poundberry England
for Prince Charles and England and then
he did uh some like communities here the
new organist communities like Seaside we
just he's older we interviewed him on

(01:43:58):
this about some of the jungian
applications of in visual archetypes and
architecture and he had met Hillman and
he told me that Hillman told him when
you go to Europe the the buildings The
Arc the eye is pulled up
so that you look at heaven and when you
go to an American Building there's a
drop ceiling with a fluorescent light so
that you look at hell

(01:44:19):
I thought that was pretty fun yeah
but look um Hillman hasn't made
much impression in the United Kingdom
they don't like him
they see him as a kind of a trickster
and an egotistical Maniac he's too much
of a a rebel I mean the the British like
a kind of authoritarian or traditional

(01:44:41):
thing and his thing was to blow up every
tradition for no reason yes exactly and
the British don't like that and as for
Australia here they've never no one in
my country has ever heard of Hillman and
they wonder why I spent so much time
with him well he was a major figure
and probably one of the first truly

(01:45:03):
creative jungians who reached out to a
broader audience so particularly that
book you mentioned
we've had a thousand years or no we've
had a hundred years of psychotherapy and
the world's getting worse I didn't know
though that he was on right-wing radio
about that is that what you said yeah um

(01:45:24):
so the the a lot of the talks that I
have I don't know when they were
recorded I don't know what they are the
recording quality is awful and they've
been ripped from digital to they've been
ripped from basically analog tapes so
when I was getting into Jung there was
like a giant file that somebody had put
up on the internet that you shared files
on something called BitTorrent at that
point and so it's just terabytes and

(01:45:45):
terabytes of jungian talks and so I
heard everything more Hillman blind all
these people said for their entire
careers but so you heard it change too
because you know they talked you know
from the 70s until the 90s A lot of them
call shed and so but one of the
appearances was helmet on the radio kind
of having this reactionary

(01:46:06):
he was talking
um to
uh I don't know the name of the program
but he was saying basically like
therapy's making us weak we have to be
tougher and you know it's just the kind
of reactionary stuff that seems silly
Hillman went to a peace conference
during the early 1980s in New York

(01:46:28):
and and gave this most crazy talk about
the need for war
um
and I said to him why did you do that
for I mean you're trying hard to make
yourself unpopular
imagine going to a peace conference and
talking up War
he didn't help it it was this

(01:46:49):
unconscious trickster and rebellious boy
he wanted somebody to put him in his
place and and tell him
Denise levitov almost smashed him at
that conference you know I mean she
basically said how dare you come here
and talk about the the virtues of war
and then he had and then he had the

(01:47:11):
temerity to write a whole book on it
um called the necessary the need for war
or something do you know that book it's
a glorious love of war and that's a
different option yes
yeah the glorious love of War
I mean what crazy crap was that all
about you know I mean anyone with their

(01:47:31):
right mind would be great I mean like I
said you've got these unions with this
wound and the males they over identify
with the anima in early life and then
they get the only Taste of power that
they've had and then they way over
identify with the Animus and they become
you know dangerous it's it's strange
dangerous
I was totally against this

(01:47:54):
about him praising war and he said don't
worry David I have Mars accented
strongly in my astrological child I said
I don't care what Mars is doing in your
chart I'm more interested in the
well-being of the earth and our future
as a civilization yeah and it came with
nukes you want to talk about oh well

(01:48:14):
Greeks went out in the Phalanx and it
made men so we should extinct the planet
with radiation Freud used to complain
that young was off with the fairies but
I tell you what Hillman was off with the
fairies huh as well and um this this
idea that we need to give Mars a
prominent Place well I mean the

(01:48:35):
tradition of Western Civilization has
been one Mars catastrophe about after
another
the first world war the second world war
the Korean War Hillen wasn't joining the
Army I mean he was telling other people
to go to war he you know he wasn't
signing up for a mercenary company he
was sitting in an armchair you know he

(01:48:55):
was in azim's chair writing about how
great war was I just said to him this is
just Bonkers this is crazy stuff
um he said um I can't remember what he
said but I was so appalled and then the
next thing I heard it it linked up
Robert Blye with a men's movement which
of course attracted angry men Angry

(01:49:16):
Young and who needed help I mean the the
same thing you know a lot of those
people that I mean because that's just
those people are dime a dozen on YouTube
now of yeah you have to eat more red
meat and women are trying to make you
weak and all this stuff but they get you
in the door with self-help that's just
cognitive psychology it's not you know

(01:49:36):
they the the tips work but then the
prescription after that is that you have
to believe all this crazy stuff I I
wrote a book denouncing Hillman and Bly
in regard to this stuff about men
you mightn't have seen it but no one
just the basic insecurity of it is so
obvious I mean I was like I remember
people saying stuff like that when I was

(01:49:57):
13 when I was an Angry Young Man and I
was just like no one would say this
unless they were deeply insecure yeah
like that Robert Bligh hated that book I
called it remaking men
um I don't think it was even published
in the states it was published in London
I'd never heard of it no published in

(01:50:18):
Melbourne which is where I live and in
London it sold quite well but I don't
think it even touched ground on the U.S
but Robert Bly read it and he wrote me
this Furious letter
about you know blah blah blah blah blah
he was just so angry and Hillman was
angry too in fact at the end of his
letter Bligh said I'm going to tell

(01:50:40):
Hillman about all this and blah blah
blah he was your dad yeah I'm gonna tell
your dad how naughty you've been I'm
just imagining grown men you know saying
someone
he threatened yeah
he said I'm writing this letter on a
plane because I wanted it to be kept

(01:51:02):
secret that's why I wrote it in a book
and published it
but anyway I I think that the beware the
jungians you know I mean some of them
are brilliant Tom Moore is brilliant and
maintained his Brilliance and I think we
can rely on James Hollis
um and uh Robert Johnson's books are

(01:51:23):
very good although they're not
intellectually oriented
and Robert Johnson's not so good on
gender politics I think he's very very
old-fashioned about men and women and
the only person that Hillman even worked
with for a while without fighting with
him was Michael Mead I mean Michael Mead
was the only person that he actually

(01:51:44):
liked but Michael Mead is so kind of out
there and space yeah that I think they
just didn't have enough of an ego to
butt heads but he basically fell out
with everyone else you know because
Michael Moore or Michael Mead was just
drumming and chanting and so there was
no ego to threaten elements you know
Brilliance I think uh Hillman and Tom
Moore I don't think they had a falling

(01:52:05):
out but I do think that they had some
disagreements
um I think basically on jealousy I
Hillman was so jealous about Tom Moore's
success and
um well there was a big love means I
mean did he want more financial success
yes uh Hillman kept saying to me he had
no superannuation

(01:52:27):
and uh he wanted more money and that you
know there's his student becoming
writing millions and millions of uh
copies so the care of the soul and I
think good on Tom I think he wrote some
terrific stuff but Hillman wrote
basically as an intellectual for
intellectuals you know he you can't read

(01:52:50):
uh revisioning psychology without having
studied philosophy psychology and
sociology at the University it doesn't
make sense
um so Hillman was writing for Highly
Educated people whereas Tom Moore
stepped down the ladder and basically
wrote for a much broader audience and

(01:53:12):
Hillman Europeans tend to know way too
much I mean because it's like to make
those connections you have to know
sociology anthropology comparative
religion you know ancient history and in
order just to get your foot in the door
and it's like who has all that that's
right no nobody has all that so I mean
to read Hillman properly you need to be
about 40 years old and have at least two

(01:53:32):
or three degrees to make sense of it
um that's why I think he he sold himself
short when he teamed up with Robert Bly
you know you got the worst of Hillman
coming out and the best of Hillman was
written in the 70s and 80s and I think
that none of the Hillman fans

(01:53:53):
uh had the maturity or the education to
actually understand the early Hillman
which was the main element well he
started to try and write more broad
mainstream but when he got rid of he
couldn't quite get rid of the
intellectual bent and so it was just
retention there was there was no well
one of these books became a bestseller I

(01:54:15):
think code yeah yeah and I I think he
got up on Opera the Opera show Opera
Winfrey Show oh yeah I didn't know he
appeared on there and there there was
his superannuation nest egg that he'd
always wanted so he did um achieve a
degree of popular success but I don't
think the Soul's code is a very

(01:54:36):
interesting book you know it kind of
fails conceptually
um and it's mainly it's not really a
theory that I don't know I mean there's
some interesting and poetic bits of it
but it isn't no it's not as good as Tom
Moore Tom had the right recipe you know
to go public as did Robert Johnson
Robert Johnson's book sold in millions

(01:54:59):
yeah you know his books he she we uh his
other book called ecstasy
there was another book by him called
inner work
for Harper Collins you know the
harpercollins made a fortune out of
Robert Johnson
um he's not often not talked about I

(01:55:19):
think the Envy toward Robert Johnson who
lived in San Diego uh was so high that
the jungians couldn't stand even reading
him well Hillman was well known as a
speaker and he was well known in
different countries that kind of liked
him but so many jungians around him were
becoming rich I mean Clarissa pinkelized

(01:55:40):
as in these people they were just the
70s and 80s was like the Jung
and he could never really articulate
what he was doing in a way that he
grabbed that Zeke in any kind of
interesting way Robert uh Robert Bly
made a fortune out of your you know
writing that book iron John based on
jungian reading of the fairy tale of

(01:56:01):
iron John
um so a lot of people were making
massive money I mean Joseph Campbell
made a fortune
especially with the power of myth you
know the TV series which was pure young
but he didn't say it was and that's what
annoyed me
even his talks on schizophrenia and
things like he's saying that and it's

(01:56:22):
like this you're quoting case studies
you know you have to contribute this
so I don't think the jungian hey days
over by the way Joel I think we're going
to get more and more of it again it's
coming waves the 80s was a wave in the
early 90s was a wave you had
as you said Clarissa pinkola I think

(01:56:44):
right now is too with younger people
it's just that they don't have any money
you know at least in the US like we were
opening Taproot when I was meeting with
the person who was helping you know and
then wait there was a big way with the
red book there's a big gray wave with
that um South Korean boy band I
mentioned BTS
the biggest selling album in the history

(01:57:06):
of Korea it's just going to go on and on
because you're there's your something
vital in your that has a future Freud
however is just going to get more and
more looking passe out of date yeah I I
don't I never or Joseph Campbell
actually has a pretty good quote where

(01:57:27):
he said you know I read a young and I
read Floyd when I was younger and I
thought they were both interesting and
then I read you again Floyd again five
years later and I didn't get anything
else out of you know out of Freud but
young got hit different and then I read
them again five years later and I got
something else out of the same unit but
I didn't get anything out of Freud and
finally I just quit rereading it Freud
and only read young and yeah it does

(01:57:48):
grow with you over your life in a way
that Freud is kind of a OneNote I still
read Freud because he's such a great
writer you know he writes in a beautiful
succinct he was
well there's a just an efficiency to the
way he presents information yeah I love
the way he presents his ideas
um even though I disagree with most of

(01:58:08):
them but I still admire Freud as a
stylist I admire Hillman as a stylist
and don't always agree with him either
and I tried to re-read Hillman's
revisioning psychology a couple of years
ago and it was like grating on me a bit
you know he was too fast he was trying

(01:58:29):
to sort of flash his his credentials
around I think he wrote that book in
order to get a top-notch job in an Ivy
League Northeast American University but
nobody took the bait he did deliver that
those lectures at Yale University for
the Terry lectures Jung delivered Terry

(01:58:51):
lectures too
um which we call psychology and religion
and um Hillman I think there were too
many intellectuals that worried about
illness and worried about his flashy
style and uh well I mean if you want to
work in an institution you cannot be the

(01:59:13):
rebel you know just the college does not
make this person who wants to blow
things up even if they're right you know
I I worked in a hospital for a while and
there's this attitude of well Sarah has
a good idea but Tiffany has a PHD and we
sell phds here so do your time and then
we'll listen to your I mean Hillman
eventually took a job at the University
of Dallas

(01:59:33):
you know which is a Catholic University
I don't know what he was doing in a
Catholic University but it was
and of course he got he ended up getting
sacked yeah because he was a rebel and
they didn't want him there the
psychology department said you're not a
psychologist
and the philosopher probably would have
agreed with that too I think he did

(01:59:56):
agree yeah and his the philosophy
Department said you're not a philosopher
either you know and there was you could
cross both of those worlds your career
is English and anthropology and
psychology
you see if you become too disciplinary
the university system doesn't like you
because you don't feel anywhere your

(02:00:17):
didn't fit in Psychology and he didn't
fit in philosophy nor did Hillman nor
did he fit anywhere so the university
these days just don't even bother with
you or Hillman
um I think I said it's something where
if you become too multi-disciplinary the
universities think you become

(02:00:37):
undisciplined literally
undisciplined and you're not following
the code of any of the established
disciplines so Hillman was booted out of
Dallas University and by the time I
worked with him he and some of his
friends in Texas it formed a new
Institute called the Dallas Institute of

(02:01:00):
humanities and culture which was formed
by Robert sardello
do you know his work I'm not familiar
yeah I think he's he's written some very
fine work in recent years he's explored
the relationship between Jung and
Steiner Rudolph Steiner and of course
um Gail Thomas

(02:01:22):
um and the Louise and Donald Calvin from
the University of Dallas all formed this
Dallas Institute
um and my sponsors from New York came
down to check it out but they weren't
impressed they just saw it as um some
sort of breakaway group that don't fit
into the university system they kept

(02:01:43):
they came down the Dallas Institute and
they said to me we want you back up
Northeast
and one guy looked at me and he said
there's no good can come out of Texas
and I think he meant it you know a real
New Yorker
and of course I don't know if he was
quoting scripture but um you know in the

(02:02:05):
New Testament says no there can be no
good come out of Nazareth
um someone says I think it's someone
called Nathaniel in the Bible
I'm not sure if he was quoting or it was
just a
coincidence but the New York sponsors
were not impressed by Hillman or the

(02:02:25):
Dallas Institute but I I fought against
them I said I'm here and I'm staying
here
and so you know I I really enjoyed my
time at the Dallas Institute and I loved
my time with Hillman as my analyst I
thought it was fantastic and he helped
me through my father complex

(02:02:46):
that's that's priceless yeah and um I
didn't even know I had a father complex
um was that was the analysis you know
were you confronting things in a
directly experiential way or was it a
pretty intellectual kind of analysis
because no it's quite experiential well
that's good maybe that's what he was

(02:03:06):
trying to to figure out a way to do it
was good at but unfortunately none of
that was translated into his writings
yeah that's that's what's missing it's
so strange is he's talking about direct
experience but then he wants to be a
detached intellectual and it's like
that's wrong it doesn't work you know
because in my experience with with
jungian analysis it's like I know these

(02:03:27):
complexes I can feel it and I'm
analyzing it and it they still have a
hold on me you have to be pushed into
going into the dark place and yes if he
probably was effective at pushing I mean
Hillman was effective at pushing people
yeah I think so I think Hillman did a
lot of good as an analyst and I
certainly have nothing but praise for

(02:03:49):
him at that level Sony his career that
I'm critical of
I I had one analyst I had another
analysis before I went to America with a
woman and that analysis was on my mother
complex and that was very successful
um
but I still have another complex I think

(02:04:10):
these things you don't get rid of them I
still have a father complex even though
I worked on it with Hillman
um or it's just that I know them better
it's not that I've got rid of them I
know them now I know my father complex I
know my mother conflicts they're friends
of mine close friends and I draw from

(02:04:31):
them and they draw them from me too and
make demands on me so I don't think this
idea that you work on the unconscious in
order to go to a higher or better place
I don't subscribe to that at all I think
you just go back to where you started
and know the place for the first time to

(02:04:53):
quote to yourself the fisher king that
you're going back to the same place you
were as a child but you're yeah you go
back again I go back to where I began
and know it for the first time and
that's a got a lovely warm feeling to it
and I thank Hillman for that and I thank
my first analyst Janice door for that

(02:05:16):
too so I have enormous good feelings and
I'm still in analysis today uh with
someone because he's so good with dreams
I'm not so good with my own dreams have
you ever tried brain spawning have you
ever heard of that Who brain spotting
that's a newer brain-based medicine

(02:05:36):
therapy oh I've heard of them yes yes
yes I feel the brain spotting here but
no I haven't it's wildly psychedelic
you're just looking at a pointer I mean
that's it there's that's there's not the
person is looking at a spot where your
eye dilates but
um it digs up really amazingly profound
dreams very quickly
um you know if you're into DreamWork I'd
recommend and it only takes you know 30

(02:05:58):
minutes to do it and then you're done so
I mean I would recommend finding
somebody if you're interested in
DreamWork because it's I'd love to know
your experience with it
um right I've been in every kind of
therapy that exists or I mean of course
not every kind but I don't think you get
just get the training I think you
actually have to be in it as a patient
jungian analysis is very different well
that's the way jungian analysis works

(02:06:19):
yeah why but that you know I was in
analysis but I also did internal family
systems I also did cognitive behavioral
you know did these different things and
40 minutes of brain spotting them know
life is just different
um yeah I felt this awful physical
feeling and I realized I'd been trying
to run from that and turn that off my
whole life and then just two or three

(02:06:39):
days of wild emotional experiences and
prophetic dreams and um and it tends to
be the experience patients have I mean
it's it's growing I think that's the
future of a lot of trauma work just wow
that's a very good wrap
yeah I think we better finish up here
sure yeah I don't want to take any more

(02:07:00):
of your time but it's fascinating I'm
very happy you seem to know so much as I
keep saying it's a pleasant it's great
pleasure talking to you well maybe
um you know the podcast is just kind of
an ongoing thing so I'm sure we could
talk again on another topic um yeah
but we've got a lot of stuff about Jung

(02:07:20):
and architecture coming up there's a one
of the a British academic is doing a lot
of work on ball engine so we're trying
to find a time to connect and with
different things about archetypal
applications and architecture is kind of
an interest of mine so he said Lucy
hoskinson no I emailed her and then she
said Martin Gledhill was her friend that

(02:07:40):
was doing it and so I talked to the
women I think his name is Martin
Gledhill I don't know if I'm saying that
right I've got two books by Lucy
hoskinson on uh architecture and
archetypes she said she was working on
Nietzsche now so what a good time to
talk about you she's always working on
Nietzsche she did her PhD on Nietzsche
as well

(02:08:01):
um but she's a very bright woman
lives that lives in Wales and works at
the University of
North Wales there
um
and uh yeah she does some great work in
architecture
but I'm out of my depth with
architecture I I can't I can't say I

(02:08:23):
can't speak about the topic
well um yeah I um my dad is an architect
so maybe that's a father complex oh well
there you go
but it's funny the the synchronistia
like when I wrote I wrote this article
on Leon careers design and you know he's
a big deal that's older and I'm writing

(02:08:45):
on a therapy blog in Birmingham Alabama
so it's like you don't expect him to see
it but I was riding in and then I was
like well my dad's an architect and I'm
writing about architecture but I'm a
social worker so what if people see it
and they're like you don't understand
architecture of good and it was so you
know somebody might see it from think
whatever and then Leon career sent me an
email and it's like this is great yeah

(02:09:10):
well that's terrific but you've
obviously got a father connection with
architecture like I don't have yeah
so
yeah when do you uh what I usually do
with the podcast is I put it out on
YouTube and then I also put it out on
our podcast the audio of it is there
anything that you want to promote or
Point people to go back to I mean you

(02:09:31):
have a lot of books
um anything that you want to promote you
know I should have a website that I
don't seem to have a website I'm not
into old-fashioned but yeah I've done 16
books on the topics that we're talking
about
some of them you've never heard of I can
tell that doesn't matter I don't care
but I buy them when I can find them but

(02:09:53):
uh there's I've got a couple I've got a
very good self-promoter you know
um I don't promote myself I just think
that if people are ready to read my
stuff they'll find it
but you know I have a lot of people
finds a new life on Audible you know
that people have these audio books and
so somebody who wrote a book 10 20 years
ago they do an audio version and then it

(02:10:14):
sales explode so maybe investing in
somebody to read them would uh would
promote the sales if someone kindly
wrote me a Wikipedia page so if you key
in my name a Wikipedia but it's not
updated unfortunately it hasn't got all
of my stuff in it the criticisms of
James Hillman on his page here you

(02:10:36):
mentioned on that Wikipedia page too
are they yeah on James Hellman there's
criticisms of him and you're I think
they cite it probably is I'm making of a
psychologist I'm not sure what they're
deciding all right okay no mentions
there too I think it was a fellow from
Norway that did that page for me that I
certainly wasn't me and or someone that

(02:10:58):
I know I just I looked one day and no so
there's a Wikipedia page on there it was
sort of like magic
um but I don't have a white website as I
said which I should change I should get
into the 21st century sure well if you
need help let me know we um built one
for uh for work so it's fairly easy now

(02:11:19):
to get a template and you link to your
books and different things it's just
kind of like making a Word document at
this point
anyway it's been wonderful talking to
you thank you so much for your time we
ran over and I I appreciate you um
making time to sit down with us because
it I mean it is fascinating to hear
directly from from you you know you read
somebody's books you get a sense of who

(02:11:40):
they are but then you still have
questions about you know
the the way that um you know details
about things that you don't know until
you ask so I it's fascinating and I'm
sure people will love to to hear your
insights into all these things thank you
well and as I said I've lived in the
state so I haven't taste about what
America is like

(02:12:01):
I saw the good and I saw the bad
I was walking down watching DC one day
and this guy who came crashing out of
this department store with stolen goods
and then these police screaming stop or
we'll shoot you know I thought only in
America could I see a scene like that

(02:12:23):
you know and I was scared stiff because
that doesn't happen in Australia we're
not gun
we're not big on guns here at all you
never hear of people or police shooting
people in Australia it just doesn't
happen
um and they started firing at this guy
and I I was I was just beside myself

(02:12:45):
with Terror and sorrow for this guy I
don't know what he stole but it was
certainly not worth him losing his life
you know he might have stolen some sort
of Hi-Fi or a TV or something but
America scares me about the guns there
you know all those guns

(02:13:06):
we don't have guns here it's illegal to
carry a gun in my country but not in
yours I know you know it's very
different
to bear arms is in the Constitution
it is and there's um
it's a it's it is a very different

(02:13:26):
culture from from a lot of the world but
I think that we've kicked the can down
the road on a lot of problems for a long
time yeah that we can't kick it anymore
um I mean just oh it's climate change is
a whole nother conversation but I mean
Australia is maybe the canary in the
coal mine for the rest of the world so
there's things creating bigger problems
there
um I I think the world is so tired of

(02:13:49):
waking up and turning on the news and
finding there's been yet another
American massacre in a shopping center
or a school or a movie house you know
we're just so tired of it we don't not
not to mention you people but we don't
even see it anymore I mean I had people
patients were calling to be seen for a

(02:14:11):
workplace shooting and I didn't even
hear about it I didn't even know what it
was
well they're so common you know they're
so cool it's it's the states are scary
I'd rather live in my country it just
you walk through here to walk anywhere
and you won't be shot no no one's going
to shoot you

(02:14:31):
um a lot of Americans are moving to
Australia partly because of this you
know we're a very different culture
a lot of people think we're very
American but we are and we aren't so
it's a it's a mixed bag actually
anyway I'm I'm getting hungry you must
be tired yeah for you it's about eight

(02:14:54):
uh 8 30 at night so I need to get my
kids to bed
um but I really appreciate your time and
you're just your body of work it's
really nice to meet you and talk to you
because you know I've been reading it
since college so
um let's thank you so much I can't thank
you enough
thank you very much and um keep in touch
yeah we'll uh we'll talk soon all right

(02:15:15):
take care
bye

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