February 21, 2024 • 46 mins
Welcome to another engaging episode of 'The Undiscovered You', featuring Kirsty Andrews, a professional lawyer, renowned underwater photographer and regular columnist for Scuba Magazine.
Explore the fascinating world beneath the waves as Kirsty shares tales of scuba diving in the waters around the United Kingdom and her brush with a great white shark! Kirsty's thrilling encounters with marine life and underwater photography not only captivate listeners but also shed light on the complexity and beauty of underwater ecosystems.
She shares her perspective on witnessing the effects of climate change on oceanic habitats. Through her experiences, Kirsty gives listeners a firsthand account of global warming's ramifications on marine flora & fauna, from coral bleaching to changes in aquatic species' habitats.
Discover the hopeful story of crawfish's resurgence due to effective conservation efforts and learn about the world of competitive underwater photography. Kirsty's stories illuminate the thrill of capturing the undersea world and the satisfaction of winning prestigious awards in the field.
In this enlightening discussion, Kirsty also shares her journey of juggling a demanding corporate career with her scuba passion. She emphasizes the importance of a flexible workplace and achieving work-life balance for personal satisfaction and employee loyalty.
Moreover, Kirsty talks about the detailed preparations needed in scuba diving and encourages listeners to pursue a passion outside work. The episode concludes with the importance of being part of a like-minded community and accepting constructive criticism for personal growth. Dive into this captivating conversation and discover a unique balance of work and passion with Kirsty Andrews.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.
(00:09):
Welcome back to The Undiscovered You, a podcast for people who feel like they
have so much more to offer but are somehow stuck where they are.
I'm your host, Kimberly Johnston, and today I'm speaking to Kirstie Andrews,
who is an underwater photographer by night and an in-house lawyer by day.
She's also a multi-award-winning photographer, a monthly columnist for Scuba
(00:32):
Magazine that has a circulation of over 30k.
She's an author in terms of being a contributor to Wild and Temperate Seas,
which is a book all about scuba diving in the UK.
Welcome to the show, Kirstie. Hi, thanks for having me.
100% excited to hear about scuba diving and photography in the UK.
(00:53):
Two things I would never put together, scuba diving and the United Kingdom.
Tell me a little bit about that. What in the world are you seeing around the
waters of the United Kingdom?
Well, you're not alone in that opinion, I'd say. and
and that's part of the thrill for me actually is is
trying to talk to people about how great it is
and how how accessible it is and the types of
(01:17):
fantastic things that you can see I mean I'd
say our our shores are full of life and
more so in fact than lots of places around the world they're a bit colder and
so you need to make sure you're wearing the right kind of gear but you can see
some fantastic things I mean if you're into really big exciting animals then
(01:37):
we have over 20 types of shark in UK waters,
including the second biggest shark in the sea across the whole world, the basking shark.
We've got important colonies of grey seals, which are really fun to snorkel with.
Beyond that, we've also got incredibly colourful waters that are full of life.
(01:58):
And yes, sometimes weather's not conducive, like
for the last couple of weeks unfortunately but when it is
good it really is fantastic diving in
the UK amazing and so how long have
you been doing this for when did you get into scuba diving
and did the photography come with it or does the photography come first and
then the scuba diving how did this all work out for you not at all I was a terrible
(02:21):
beginner with photography I did I had to give some thought to this in advance
of the interview and toss up
some sums and And I suppose there have been definite phases in my love of,
obsession with, preoccupation with scuba diving.
And it's actually been, well, over 20 years. I started when I was 18.
(02:42):
So you can do the sums there. You just gave your age away.
As a young thing about to go to university, I did a working gap year. year.
But right at the end of it, I went to Thailand, like so many thousands of other
people and learned to dive when I was 18, which was fantastic.
(03:02):
And then I,
I went to university. And although I went to university in Leeds originally,
which is literally as far from the sea as you can get in the UK,
the Sub-Aqua Club there was really vibrant, great community.
And I loved that. I really blossomed.
And for me at that time, it was all about being a member of the British Sub-Aqua Club and teaching.
(03:27):
Teaching so sort of getting my qualifications and then teaching others
and that community was was brilliant and and
that was my sort of initially what I get
got out of scuba diving and then I think
what kept me in was love of wildlife and learning
more and more about the types of life we have in the sea and
that naturally seeped into wanting to
(03:49):
take photos of it I had friends who got into that
before I did I was probably a bit of a late starter it's probably
about halfway through my diving career that
I picked up a camera I actually I
remember there's a there's a
dive show every year where manufacturers and holiday companies and get together
(04:10):
and talk about stuff we love doing and I remember I picked up a secondhand camera
from someone at that show and also a copy of Martin Edge's book The Underwater
Photographer which is the sort of.
The bible I suppose the the manual for beginners
and I took both of them the next week on holiday with
me and on a red sea liverboard
(04:31):
where I was just diving all day and before every dive I'd be flicking through
going what setting oh what am I doing okay give this a go I was completely clueless
but I loved it and ever since then and that's over 10 years ago now I've you
know the photography has definitely been to the fore that's a long hunt for
you no I love it and and when you You were doing that assuming that was all
(04:51):
digital. So you were in a space where you're practicing on digital?
Yeah, that's right. I've got lots of friends who started online.
Before digital. And I think actually when I first did my course,
we were given a camera on film, but that doesn't really count, I think.
So yeah, I never experienced the real challenge of underwater photography on film.
(05:16):
As I say, friends of mine had a Nikonas 5 and that type of camera,
which actually produced great results.
But my goodness, I don't know if I would have been incapable because
there's so yeah so many
things you've got to get right and you don't find out until you
develop your film whether you got them right and oh my
goodness I'm in total awe of those people who managed it then and I'm very grateful
(05:39):
to have my digital camera yeah and I mean anybody that's gone on holiday with
one of those underwater film cameras can attest to the fact that the photos
are never great you know you have the you have a couple that may have come out really well Well,
so I can imagine if your job is to catch the right photo and actually you're
sitting there with the pressure of that and knowing it's film and knowing you only have,
(05:59):
you know, 32 shots or whatever it is, it would be quite, quite an experience.
So I think there's probably some, some joys in being able to have the digital
side of things, but also, you know, I think you still have to do a lot of post-production.
So it's not like you've got the, you got the shot and that's it.
You actually have to take time in post-production, don't you?
(06:20):
Yes, still definitely. And I enjoy that. We talk about it as the digital darkroom.
And some photographers may be a bit poo-poo about processing.
Some people are real geniuses, and it's only the start of the process, taking the photo.
And I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle. I do think it's a necessary part
(06:41):
of creating the image that you want to do some processing.
And it's just another skill, which I quite enjoy getting the hang of.
What do you use just out of interest for your processing? For almost all of
it, I use Adobe Lightroom, which is really easy to use and has incredible amounts
of things you can do with it.
(07:02):
That's great. So tell me a little bit about your monthly columnist in Scuba
Magazine. What type of stuff do you write about?
Well, my brief is anything I want, which is a little bit worrying.
So bread baking? no it's got to be scuba related yeah I suppose um.
(07:25):
Whatever has happened to me takes my fancy
relating to the world of scuba so I kind of
I try and vary it a little bit so I might interview someone
as you're doing with me now but on a very much shortened scale
I might talk about a location that I've
been to recently recently I might maybe just
a feature of diving which I looking at
(07:47):
it again I think is something very odd one of my favorite
columns I wrote just after we were allowed to dive
again post-covid was about mask spitting which is if if you are already a scuba
diver you'll know that it is quite well quite common across the world some countries
tend to use artificial sprays but in the UK we We very much spit in our mask so that we can see in it.
(08:11):
And it's a bit of an essential. But in a world of COVID, we suddenly realized, oh, hang on.
This has other factors that we need to think about. So it's just,
yeah, a commentary on diving life, I suppose.
And what was your most recent article on? So the one that you just published. Yeah.
I, well, there've been a couple of good ones recently. I think I've actually,
(08:34):
I've got scuba mag on my doorstep. I haven't opened it yet.
And it's our, it's actually the 70th anniversary of the British Subaqua Club.
So again, looking back to the, the pioneers of the past is just incredible, I think.
And so the one hot off the press that I haven't opened yet is about my appreciation
actually for those diving pioneers.
(08:54):
I recently went on a dive trip to St Kilda which is one of the most far-flung
outreaches of the British Isles and I was.
Thrilled to even get out there because you got it at the right weather to get
out there and then it's visually spectacular it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site
both above and below the water so really brilliant place. Where is it north south east west?
(09:20):
It's very west so it's west of the
the outer hebrides okay wow 40 miles
from the nearest bit of outer hebrides so how
do you get there on a liveaboard a boat
that we live on which if you're overseas liveaboards
tend to be incredibly glamorous and full of
all all types of luxury whereas in
(09:42):
the uk they're often converted fishing boats so a bit of
a different experience but nonetheless good and and
fun and and that was was great but my column
was actually just appreciating that before I
was born even I think chap called Gordon Ridley
had written a guide to diving in St Kilda he
he founded an expedition scheme and he he ran some expeditions you know again
(10:08):
before the the sort of nice big boats that we've got now were being used and
and he wrote this guide to diving with some beautiful illustrations illustrations
and 180, I think, different dive sites.
And, you know, that is something that I can use now to inform myself.
And, you know, I think that's great. I think I really feel that power of contributing
(10:30):
to wider knowledge and wanting to do that.
But I think if I go back to my previous article, the contrast I wrote about
when I bumped into a great white shark underwater earlier this year.
So that was good. Wait, wait, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Back that one up again. You bumped into a great white shark
tell me more well actually thankfully I didn't bump
(10:50):
in literally I was probably about two meters away at the
closest but that's still pretty close that is really close where were you I
was in South Africa in Alishol I'm really really glad to say you weren't like
in Bournemouth or you know right off down in Dorset yeah somewhere right off
the coast so you're down in South Africa diving where one might think that there
(11:11):
may be a great white nearby nearby.
You happen to come upon one, but that's pretty close quarters to be next to a Great White.
Yes, it is. I will seek just to say that I wouldn't rule out having Great Whites in UK waters. Same.
Soon or even now, and we don't know about it, it's quite possible on their roots.
We've got food for them here.
(11:32):
And yes, as waters change, perhaps. But yes, more likely in South Africa,
although actually it wasn't quite the season for them. So it was a surprise.
And we were just doing a normal dive on the reef and the shark swam towards us.
It was absolutely incredible. incredible and she
(11:53):
was a female and she was I think
certainly between four and five meters in size really really
large just one and swimming directly towards me I would say as well and is that
like a danger moment where you're like she thinks I'm a seal I'm about to get
eaten like what's going through your head in that moment no well no I don't know if I'm.
(12:19):
I don't know if I'm just foolish I mean I absolutely I love
sharks I think they are incredible they're beautiful and so
I think mainly to the extent that I was thinking
and I'm not sure how much I was actually thinking I was thinking
come close come close so that I can take a photo
yeah yeah the obsessive underwater photographer and
(12:39):
my strobes only carry it probably a couple of
meters at most so she has to be pretty close for me to get what I
would consider a usable photo and and she
was quite relaxed so you can tell the shark's body
language broadly and I could tell that she
was very relaxed the fins were were out wide and just
curious but having said that of course she can
(13:01):
change that quite quickly and she's
a wild animal and I suppose it's it's
something it's not the type of thing that I worry about because if she
were going to bite me or eat me or whatever I
would had no say in the matter and it probably would have happened before well
the catastrophic thing would have happened before I was aware of it so
it's not something that I worry about and and really she was just curious about
(13:23):
me in the group and when when my flash went off when I took a photo she actually
wasn't sure what's this I wasn't expecting that and turned away from me and
towards the other divers and then when she saw the group of divers she thought
oh there's a lot of you actually and swam off so.
It was wonderful, but it was quite brief. And I love that you can kind of tell
(13:44):
the body language of the shark the same way you think about,
you know, you can tell if a horse is angry, you can tell if a dog's angry.
And the more time you spend with them, the more you can recognize that.
And so I think, you know, because we have this innate fear against sharks,
because of things like Jaws and all the different movies that we've seen that,
you know, the sharks come and attack people.
I wonder if actually we took the time to kind of recognize the same way you
(14:05):
would with a dog. There are certain dogs you wouldn't go up and pet because
you can see they're in a state of anxiety or they're snarling,
for instance, or they are barking. You know the signs.
And I wonder if we actually knew that about sharks, whether we'd have a different
relationship with them.
You said fins out. What else do we need to be looking for? Just in case,
you know, we're scuba diving and this lovely female great white is coming towards
(14:29):
us and we're super relaxed.
How do we know if she's relaxed? relaxed well yeah
as i say out wide tends to be more relaxed and as there's
maybe some more emotions the fins drop and become
sort of rigid i'm by no means a
shark expert but i do i try and educate myself as
much as possible and there's certainly different types of sharks that are
more of a threat and usually it's
(14:52):
not it's because
of how sophisticated their senses are actually
so bull sharks have been responsible for a lot of fatalities and things and
that tends to be because they're not very sophisticated in their sight and their
smell in comparison with some sharks and so they're more likely to to mistake
(15:14):
a usually a swimmer or a surfer for their prey.
Whereas other sharks less so and
i mean by a factor of many many
times we are more of a a threat to
sharks yeah yeah especially yeah boats and jet skis and
big nets and all the rest of it yeah and and
(15:35):
i mean there's i think there's about 200 and some odd species of sharks and
there are only several of them that would even harm you isn't there something
there's something you probably know the stats a lot better than i do well i
wish i'd got my notes with me because i mean there'd be more more as i say there's
over 20 species of shark in uk waters alone so there's certainly Certainly more species than that,
but we are what with bycatch or long lining,
(15:59):
then we are directly responsible for their deaths, but also in our destruction
of their habitat and in climate change and changes there, you know,
it's a really sad tale for them.
And sharks, you know, we might think of them as big, scary predators,
but it's certainly been shown, you know, as a top predator, they are responsible
for a healthy ecosystem.
(16:19):
You know so if we if we lose the sharks and
that impacts the sea as a whole i was
watching a special and they were talking about was it is
it rockfish or something that there's something they sell that is in
fish and chip shops it's actually shark yes it
might well be yeah i can't remember what it was called but
i was yeah and i think it was called rockfish or something but it
(16:40):
was actually it's actually shrimps maybe rock salmon yeah
yeah and it was actually it was actually shark which
i was just like and they did they did a whole bunch of they took it and
they studied it and they took it back to the labs and like no this actually
is it is shark yeah there's a really good charity operating in the uk called
bite back who are who would recommend checking out you know on their social
(17:01):
media and things for educating yourself and your friends about that kind of thing.
So this is something i really want to go back to because something you said
you said you've been doing this for about 20 years now.
We know we've had a massive amount of climate change that's happened that's
already impacted our waters around the world.
We've seen, you know, there's lots of reports coming out around the Great Barrier
(17:24):
Reef. If we get much more of an increase in water temperature,
you know, that a lot of that's going to be dying.
What have you noticed in terms of your diving, your photography,
the waters around the UK or elsewhere that
you've seen the impact of climate change in the
waters in general it's a really important question and it is something i do
(17:46):
i do think about but i am conscious i'm not a scientist and i wouldn't want
to make sweeping statements without the the backdrop to that certainly diving abroad.
Which i i try and do sort of maybe once a year
these days you know try and be a little bit bit thoughtful about travel
i have noticed going
(18:07):
to the tropics that coral coral
has bleached even in the coral
triangle the sort of the most beautiful areas
of underwater coral reefs in the
world in indonesia and the philippines say coral bleaching
which is indicating that it's it's dying and that's
due to rising temperatures and also in
(18:30):
the wildlife that we that i've seen there's effects called
el nino and la nina which are changes
in the ocean currents due to climate change which
mean that cold water or warm
streams aren't found perhaps where you might expect them
to be and that changes the wildlife so i've had a few trips where i haven't
(18:52):
seen the really big animals because the water's been warmer than normal and
they've stayed very deep so perhaps I might expect to see mantas and they are
there because scientists monitor them and perhaps have tagged them.
And we know that they're on the site, but they're maybe a hundred meters below
where I am because the water's... But certainly seeing the bleached corals is a really sad sight.
(19:17):
And in the UK, it's perhaps more difficult to tell, but I do think it's important,
particularly people like me who dive in the UK a lot, to try and contribute to that data.
So in recent times, I've tried. I'm not the best, but I'm trying to be better at recording what I see.
(19:38):
And there's an organization called Sea Search that is citizen science arm of
the Marine Conservation Society and they collect reports both on dive sites
and also on key species so they can see populations as they ebb and flow.
There have been some success stories, so things like crawfish they in the 1980s
(20:05):
and 1990s there was an absolute population dive.
Because they were overfished not least by divers actually who
picked them up and when I started my diving career I wasn't expecting to see
one wouldn't have known what one looked like really but now there was a no-take
sort of more of a I'm not sure to what what extent it was litigation,
(20:30):
but voluntary no-take in some cases, they can now be caught.
But we are seeing them bounce back very much. And I often see them now on the South Coast.
And people who are more rigorous with their science than I am have definitely
seen that there's a real population boom, which is lovely to see.
That's so cool. Thank you for sharing a positive story. That's always good to hear as well.
(20:54):
I lived in Ecuador when I was in high school, And we had the pepinillo de mar.
So the sea cucumbers were being overfished and were massively depleted.
And they actually were used as a delicatessen in certain dishes.
And so they actually had to get the Navy out there to protect the pepinillo de mar.
(21:15):
And it was a proper skirmish. It was a real thing because they were worth quite
a bit of money for these fishermen.
So yeah it's interesting how sometimes you
know you have to you have to protect it in order to have it come back and sometimes
they're over fish sometimes they're over caught and it's interesting
to hear that you're not noticing anything specifically like you're
not seeing a depletion of something in your
(21:37):
own dive so you're not going back to the same place over and over
and seeing a big change in the i
call it the floor and the fauna but i don't know what would the language would
you be that you'd use for yeah for sure it's mostly fauna underwater most things
are animals even if they look like plants i like it i like them so for people
(21:57):
that wanted to dive in the uk where would you say top places to go would be oh.
Hmm so many places i
mean i'm lucky i live in in bristol which i
can achieve various coasts relatively easily
so i happily dive devon dorset cornwall
wales and i particularly love scotland and
(22:20):
the various coasts of scotland and some of the sea locks there so difficult
to choose a favorite i suppose if you're learning then diving or snorkeling
on the south coast probably a bit more achievable for a lot of people it's a
bit warmer and less scary but there's so much to see,
and yeah scotland's got a special place in my heart
(22:43):
i think any place specifically in scotland that
you love some of
the sea locks they're all different um i've got a
few favorites and the west coast and
the east coast oh it's too hard anywhere anywhere and i hear there's a book
called wild and temperate that you may have been a contributor to that might
(23:06):
actually be all about yeah so what is it it's all about scuba diving in the
uk right it is yeah so probably good one for getting some ideas about where to dive around.
A chap called will appleyard put that together and
probably around covid time when we had nothing think better to do
than put a book together and it's a it's a guide to
diving spots across the uk and he got some
(23:28):
passionate people to talk about their favorite places
so there's a good area on devon there's specialists
on the east coast i think will did dorset himself and
and i covered some of my favorites right up
in the far north of scotland for that one oh and
so is that available on amazon or where can we get a copy of that
it is yeah wild and temperate seas wild and temperate
(23:50):
seas okay fabulous I think I'm going to grab that because I'm
so I'm so curious about diving here so I
grew up in very warm climates still a
lot of like warm water scuba a lot of warm water snorkeling
but then I've never even ventured I barely have ventured in to go swimming much
so the water is so cold so I think I need to get a wetsuit and I think I need
(24:12):
to at least get a snorkel to uh to start trying that out yeah definitely definitely
so we're talking about balance.
So really focusing a lot on your underwater photography and the scuba diving
that you do and how, you know, this is something that you're really passionate
about and that comes through pretty clearly.
And I love it when people have passions alongside of their day jobs.
(24:36):
So my first question is how much of your time, so if you were doing a pie chart
with a hundred percent of your time, and let's assume that, you know,
50% of it's sleeping, no, about, let's say, I am good at sleeping.
That's a decent amount of sleeping what percentage would you put on scuba and
underwater photography and post-production and writing and doing all that how
(24:58):
much time do you think you spend,
Oh, wow. Well, being a lawyer, I should be good at measuring my time by the
minutes, but I'll probably not.
And I do work full time, although many friends joke with me that they don't think I do.
It's funny that we try and cultivate this impression on social media and such,
don't we, that we're always out having fun.
But no, I do work full time. but but then
(25:21):
yes i i suppose with almost all
of my free time i am either heading to
the coast or planning a trip looking
at the weather forecast hopefully and or
or looking at my catalog and maybe doing a bit
of image polishing i do you know i
do spend a lot of time doing that but i get a lot of enjoyment out of
(25:44):
all of that i'm lucky my partner's got similar obsessions to
me so I'm not going to put a number on
it because that'll probably scare me but yeah it's
almost my free time I suppose and and you just said something
that's really interesting there so your partner also does is it are they into
underwater photography and also into scuba diving etc yes yes absolutely so
(26:08):
does that help yeah it does help but we egg each other on we're We're probably
both a bit competitive and we both love it.
Absolutely. So that's brilliant.
Cool. And when you take the photographs, what are they used for?
So do you have a gallery? Do you sell them online? What do you do with your photography?
I mean, the vast majority sit there on my hard drive. I don't do very much,
(26:32):
of course, because I enjoy the process of it and the taking of it.
So even if I didn't do anything with them, I don't suppose that would matter too much.
Because I still love scuba diving for the sake of it. Just the feeling of being
weightless underwater is one.
And I still enjoy the challenge, the technical challenge of photography.
(26:54):
So, you know, that is what taking the photos is for predominantly for me.
But having said that, yes, there's also an aspect of it, which is a bit competitive
in trying to create the best photos I can and then pitting myself against my friends and beyond.
So I help to run a photo group locally of other underwater photographers and
(27:17):
we sort of have a monthly competition.
There's a British Society of Underwater Photographers and we do the same.
And then there's other competitions, whether it be underwater specific or,
and wildlife more broadly. So I do sometimes enter some of those too.
And you've won a few. Tell us a bit about your winnings.
(27:43):
Yeah. It's terrible talking about your winnings because you think,
what if I never win anything ever again?
Well, then you would have had these winnings to pin up. So let's hear
about the ones that you've won already yeah I
so there I
mean there's a lot of photo competitions out there so
if it's something people are interested in doing you know
anything from sort of a magazine monthly competition
(28:06):
to you know all kinds of things around so I
don't enter everything because I think you could do that as a full-time job
but some of them when I really admire the the quality of what what they're putting
together and the organization doing it there's some good ones so I suppose I'm
really pleased to have done well in the British Wildlife Photography Awards a couple of times.
(28:28):
I think I got some postcards
made by them with one of my images so I've got a collection of
those at home which I can't like but yeah I've been highly commended
and runner-up is the highest I've gotten there but that's nice
also underwater photographer of the
year obviously plays to my my strengths that's a
really highly rated competition amongst underwater photographers of course and
(28:53):
I I'm really proud actually that I've managed to get at least an image in there
for the last seven years I think I've won one of the British categories three times so that's,
you know I'm really proud of that they you know
thousands of entrants not not as many perhaps as
then to British Wildlife Photography Awards where it's not
(29:13):
just underwater crazy people you know I'm
pleased with that and the European Wildlife
Photography Awards I got an image
through to those a couple of years ago which I really like because looking at
the collection of images that that wins that they are beautiful they have a
very artistic stylish type of image that they award and so I was just pleased
(29:36):
to be part of the collection there and that was a feather in my cap as well.
I bought the British Wildlife Photography Awards calendar for my daughter this year.
And so every month we turn it over and it is. They're beautiful images.
There are some that are quite funny.
There are some that are quite emotive. It's really, I really like it.
And some of them have a bit of a social aspect to them too.
(29:59):
Like you'll have, you know, a ring that's got like a ring, you know,
for the, what are they called? Soda, soda.
I'm going to call it soda pop, which is such a Latin American thing.
So yeah, the plastic that's kind of around a fin or something on a turtle,
and it can be quite emotive as well.
So I like the fact that photography can be art, it can be something that can
(30:21):
share information with people, it can be funny, and it can also be something
that's kind of highlighting a social issue that needs to be brought to life.
And that works underwater as well, because we see a lot, obviously,
in the news, we see lots of photography now because a lot of our news is on our phones.
So I love the fact that it's able to be used in that way as well.
(30:42):
Yeah, increasingly so, I think, and the competition's trying to have an environmental
message to them, and rightly so.
And as a photographer, I don't want to see quite distressing images of wildlife
being harmed in various ways, often by human hands.
But it's an important message to get out there yeah
yeah it really is so you're using quite a
(31:04):
bit of your time on the photography we're sleeping as well and
then we're working full time tell me about full-time work so this is not even
not even four days a week not even four and a half days a week this is five
days a week that you're working yeah but now that's it that balance works we'll
see moving forward i always keep it under review i suppose but for now it works Thanks.
(31:27):
Yeah, so yeah, I do work full time. I'm very grateful that I think my employer has a,
whether it's my immediate team, or the organisation generally,
they seem to have quite a positive and supportive attitude towards people having work life balance.
And that extends beyond maybe what might be standard to people like me who are
(31:49):
a bit unusual in how they want to spend all of their free time,
but I still get support and an element of flexibility.
And I really value that. I think it engenders loyalty in your employees when
they feel that there's a bit of give and take on that front.
Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. And a lot of times when we talk
about work-life balance or balancing life in work and life out of work,
(32:12):
because I think that there's life in work as well. I don't think it's like work and life balance.
You know, we We think about people with caring responsibilities or we think
about people that have something that they're dealing with outside of work that
they need to be able to deal with.
And I think it's really important, as you say, that it engenders loyalty when
(32:32):
you also are able to do your passion projects outside of work.
Because actually, when you're able to do the passion projects outside of work,
you're able to bring that passion to the work that you're doing as well.
Because you're a happier, more well-balanced person.
You're not feeling like you're not doing what you want to do when you're at work.
You're actually able to do your job when you're there, recognize the value of
(32:55):
it, paying your bills, recognizing the fact that you've trained as a lawyer.
You've spent a lot of time and effort to do this, and this is what your speciality
is, and you can still do that as well as the time and effort you've put into
this passion of scuba diving and of underwater photography.
Yeah, that's it. It's all part of the picture. Yeah, I do agree with you there.
(33:16):
And obviously, having a quite corporate job enables me to dedicate my time and
resources elsewhere for the rest of my life.
So for now, the balance is right.
But I think all of us should be looking at that on an ongoing basis and seeing what works. Yeah.
And let me ask you, in terms of what you do that you think works well.
(33:36):
So have there been times when things have been in better better balance than
not? And when is that looked well?
And when is it maybe not, maybe fallen short of the word well?
Well, yeah, I mean, it is a tricky one, isn't it?
I think all of us, when we have a stressful time at work, we value perhaps the
(34:00):
weekend, you know, the time when you're not at work for downtime,
but that stress impacts us sort of mentally and physically in ways perhaps we we don't envisage.
And I've seen it to an extent with myself, but also with friends who have been
really busy and they come away with me for the weekend and then their brain
(34:21):
just can't keep up and they make a stupid mistake.
So for example, in cold British waters, they forget to do their suit up properly
and they get absolutely drenched. That is an absolute classic.
And I often put it it down to people who's just a bit
frazzled and generally
speaking I I'm I'm
(34:43):
quite a relaxed person and I can deal but yeah I do have my moments when it
all gets a bit much and I suppose sometimes I feel you know it's great to fill
your weekends with brilliant exciting things but it is also important to have
just a relax actually and perhaps not to be doing anything and so.
(35:03):
Well but then it's always fun to to plan a
good exciting dive so yeah I uh I'm
not sure I take my own advice on that one but I think we need to keep
an eye on ourselves to make sure that we're not doing too much because ultimately
scuba diving it's it
can be a risky activity and you don't want to be going into it so tired that
you're not prepared properly what i think is really interesting as well and
(35:28):
maybe this is one for you answer is you said when you're kind of weightless
in the water and you're in there you really enjoy that is that also rejuvenation time for you.
Mm, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think there's that, you know,
a lot of times people think, oh, I need downtime.
So I need to sit on the couch and watch TV. And actually, that's,
(35:48):
that's not necessarily the best thing for you.
Because it is kind of, you know, your brain still ticking along,
you know, a lot of things that you watch can cause stress.
You know, you'll have emotional reactions to things.
So actually, you end up in a very heightened state of emotion when when you
watch certain things and actually going out and going for a walk or in your case,
going scuba diving or going for a swim or listening to music or reading a book
(36:13):
or just finding that space and time for yourself is really important because as you say,
even if it's an exciting dive off the back of an exciting week.
You know, you do need to be in a mental state where you can do that safely or
where you can show up to work in a way that's actually going to be beneficial
for your employer that you're not exhausted and, you know, falling asleep at at your desk.
(36:34):
And so it's quite interesting to hear you say that sometimes actually taking
that time off at the weekend is actually the way that you need to operate in
order to regenerate and to rejuvenate. And that is part of the balance.
It's not just about, what am I doing outside of work? What am I doing in work?
It's also about what are you doing to relax? What are you doing to reset?
(36:56):
What are you doing to detox, to unwind, to actually just get your brain to be
in a state of, I mean, it used to have a Sabbath.
It used to be a Sabbath that everything was shut down on Sundays,
even all the shops and everything.
You couldn't go and do anything on a Sunday, and everybody had to shut down.
But now we're like a 24-7 cycle, and so you have to find that time in your own
(37:20):
life that allows you to shut down.
I'm smiling because it is definitely still like that in Devon where my partner lives.
I can't do anything on a Sunday. but yeah yeah
i mean you're right sitting on the sofa isn't usually
the the best answer every now and then but you know get getting out and about
and some fresh air and sincere certainly does it for me but maybe it's just
(37:42):
a case of toning things down a bit so perhaps instead of driving for eight hours
to get to scotland maybe just you know heading to the nearest bit of coastline instead and yeah.
Do you get in the water just from the beach as well?
Or do you have to kind of just suit up and then just go straight in?
(38:03):
Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, you can do that for sure. I have some friends in
Dorset who are always just heading in even to a couple of meters of water.
And I was there doing that on a night dive myself last weekend.
And it was absolutely fantastic. just wading
into the water swimming out five minutes and
(38:25):
then in in three meters of water there was this fantastic squid
i love cephalopods i find them beautiful and fun
and fascinating so a really happy hour and a half in the dark hours on saturday
night i mean that's just wading in so you absolutely can do that it is different
to taking a boat or traveling a long way but it's it's just as fun in many ways. That's really cool.
(38:51):
Well, it's almost reached that time for me to ask you our two final questions.
So my first question for you is along this journey, what have you discovered
about yourself along the way?
Well, I suppose I've, I've always been a bit of a slow learner about myself.
It would be fair to say and I think
(39:13):
I've got to a place now a pretty happy place when I yeah I have my kind of corporate
career but I'm also pretty happy with the diving and photography side of it
and I guess it's been an outlet for a side of me that otherwise I wasn't I was
neglecting which is partly creative and.
Partly sort of learning and
(39:35):
the competitiveness and the passion for
sure so I've learned
a lot about myself in in through this activity in
ways that yeah the rest of my life I sort of focus
on other things so it's very very precious
to me I love it and I like that idea of you
know I often say finding that thing that you really love to
(39:58):
do if it's not in work find it outside of
work work so you can just fulfill that passion because sometimes
you'll have you know if you're in if you're in high school if you're
in university and you do something really creative
so you do you know plays or you do singing
or you do art or you do you know diving i mean you were part of you know in
your university you were part of a dive club and then you leave and you go out
(40:22):
into the corporate world and you're not doing that anymore there's actually
a bit of a mourning a bit of a a loss from not being able to have those creative outlets.
And so sometimes, you know, you do unhealthy stuff around that and sometimes
you find it in other ways.
And so I love that you've been able to find that creative outlet.
And I would encourage listeners if they're feeling a bit of a drought around
(40:42):
that, see if you can go and, you know, do an art class or, you know,
go find a scuba team that's near you that, what are they called?
You're not called scuba teams. what are they called go find a
dive club or go find a dance class or something that can
help you to to have that outlet because again that's part of that balance is
(41:04):
finding the joy in in life finding the joy in what you do yeah and I suppose
I haven't focused on it much today at it not intentionally but there's definitely
the community side to that as well which I've also found and and really appreciate.
Finding your tribe is a really valuable thing, isn't it? And it's quite a niche hobby that I have.
But equally, the people that also do that are good friends and very precious
(41:28):
relationships through that as well.
And I can imagine like having the like-minded people means you're spending the time with them.
Because you said you spend all your free time when you're not working doing this.
And so it's actually, that's your group of friends. You can go diving with your partner.
You can go off with friends on a weekend for a night dive, you know, in Devon.
Like you can find those ways to amalgamate the two because you have those similar passions.
(41:53):
And as you said, you found your tribe. I love that. and final
question is what's the best piece of advice you've ever
received heard overheard read in
a really good scuba magazine this is
a tricky one i i've had
good advice through over the years from a
(42:14):
number of friends and contemporaries or mentors underwater i often and value
constructive criticism and I remember going on a workshop with with Alex Mustard
who's he's a friend but also an incredibly fantastic photographer and teacher and him telling me that,
he sort of he did the whole sandwich of feedback as you do of saying that uh
(42:38):
yeah this is okay but this is really not very good.
And I do value that I think you you learn through people being honest with you
but having said that also through my photo group, various chairmen of that over the years.
Arthur Kingdon used to be chairman of BUPG, another fantastic photographer.
(43:01):
And it's incredibly encouraging to up and coming new members.
And he'd always find something nice to say about your photo when it was on screen.
And if he couldn't think of anything, he'd sort of say, good effort, which is lovely.
But in terms of.
Advice i suppose i think the something
(43:22):
which can be applied to what i do but to
any number of other things as well is that
whole principle that it's
the time you put in beforehand that's so important
that preparation and it's definitely true in what i do because we have physical
constraints diving as to how much time we can spend in the water whether it's
(43:45):
the cold or how much gas we've got up with this or whatever so you might only
be on a day's diving spending two hours in the water,
but before then you are you're spending
time prepping your kit choosing your camera learning your techniques in my case
i think it's really important to learn about the marine life you're looking
to to see whether that be its its behavior when and where you're likely to see
(44:10):
it looking at the condition you know all of these things that you think about
beforehand are so important so So,
you know, the advice that I'm sure I've had in a number of ways over the years
and I would give to others is that that time spent preparing for what you do
is really valuable time. And it's all part of the fun as well.
(44:30):
Yeah, I love that. And even just, you know, as we said, your passion comes through
in this, but also the knowledge that you've acquired through this comes through as well.
I know you said you're not a scientist, you're not an expert several times,
but actually I think you're probably getting pretty close.
So this is an absolute pleasure. And Kirstie, thank you so much for sharing your love of diving.
(44:52):
Thank you for teaching us a little bit about scuba diving in the UK.
I'm definitely going to be picking up this book that you contribute to,
Wild and Temperate Seas. It sounds fabulous.
And just really sharing about the balance that you found and how you've managed
to do that and just really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
(45:16):
Join me next time when I speak to our next guest about how they are balancing
on the proverbial seesaw.
If you're looking for an executive coach or want to get in touch,
check out my website, kljconsulting.co.uk, or shoot me an email on the Undiscovered
You podcast at gmail.com.
If you're enjoying the podcast and would like to support me in putting out more
(45:37):
content, why not buy me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com forward slash undiscovered you.
Don't forget to follow, subscribe, like and comment below and I hope that you're
one step closer to discovering.
Music.
Music.
(00:09):
Welcome back to The Undiscovered You, a podcast for people who feel like they
have so much more to offer but are somehow stuck where they are.
I'm your host, Kimberly Johnston, and today I'm speaking to Kirstie Andrews,
who is an underwater photographer by night and an in-house lawyer by day.
She's also a multi-award-winning photographer, a monthly columnist for Scuba
(00:32):
Magazine that has a circulation of over 30k.
She's an author in terms of being a contributor to Wild and Temperate Seas,
which is a book all about scuba diving in the UK.
Welcome to the show, Kirstie. Hi, thanks for having me.
100% excited to hear about scuba diving and photography in the UK.
(00:53):
Two things I would never put together, scuba diving and the United Kingdom.
Tell me a little bit about that. What in the world are you seeing around the
waters of the United Kingdom?
Well, you're not alone in that opinion, I'd say. and
and that's part of the thrill for me actually is is
trying to talk to people about how great it is
and how how accessible it is and the types of
(01:17):
fantastic things that you can see I mean I'd
say our our shores are full of life and
more so in fact than lots of places around the world they're a bit colder and
so you need to make sure you're wearing the right kind of gear but you can see
some fantastic things I mean if you're into really big exciting animals then
(01:37):
we have over 20 types of shark in UK waters,
including the second biggest shark in the sea across the whole world, the basking shark.
We've got important colonies of grey seals, which are really fun to snorkel with.
Beyond that, we've also got incredibly colourful waters that are full of life.
(01:58):
And yes, sometimes weather's not conducive, like
for the last couple of weeks unfortunately but when it is
good it really is fantastic diving in
the UK amazing and so how long have
you been doing this for when did you get into scuba diving
and did the photography come with it or does the photography come first and
then the scuba diving how did this all work out for you not at all I was a terrible
(02:21):
beginner with photography I did I had to give some thought to this in advance
of the interview and toss up
some sums and And I suppose there have been definite phases in my love of,
obsession with, preoccupation with scuba diving.
And it's actually been, well, over 20 years. I started when I was 18.
(02:42):
So you can do the sums there. You just gave your age away.
As a young thing about to go to university, I did a working gap year. year.
But right at the end of it, I went to Thailand, like so many thousands of other
people and learned to dive when I was 18, which was fantastic.
(03:02):
And then I,
I went to university. And although I went to university in Leeds originally,
which is literally as far from the sea as you can get in the UK,
the Sub-Aqua Club there was really vibrant, great community.
And I loved that. I really blossomed.
And for me at that time, it was all about being a member of the British Sub-Aqua Club and teaching.
(03:27):
Teaching so sort of getting my qualifications and then teaching others
and that community was was brilliant and and
that was my sort of initially what I get
got out of scuba diving and then I think
what kept me in was love of wildlife and learning
more and more about the types of life we have in the sea and
that naturally seeped into wanting to
(03:49):
take photos of it I had friends who got into that
before I did I was probably a bit of a late starter it's probably
about halfway through my diving career that
I picked up a camera I actually I
remember there's a there's a
dive show every year where manufacturers and holiday companies and get together
(04:10):
and talk about stuff we love doing and I remember I picked up a secondhand camera
from someone at that show and also a copy of Martin Edge's book The Underwater
Photographer which is the sort of.
The bible I suppose the the manual for beginners
and I took both of them the next week on holiday with
me and on a red sea liverboard
(04:31):
where I was just diving all day and before every dive I'd be flicking through
going what setting oh what am I doing okay give this a go I was completely clueless
but I loved it and ever since then and that's over 10 years ago now I've you
know the photography has definitely been to the fore that's a long hunt for
you no I love it and and when you You were doing that assuming that was all
(04:51):
digital. So you were in a space where you're practicing on digital?
Yeah, that's right. I've got lots of friends who started online.
Before digital. And I think actually when I first did my course,
we were given a camera on film, but that doesn't really count, I think.
So yeah, I never experienced the real challenge of underwater photography on film.
(05:16):
As I say, friends of mine had a Nikonas 5 and that type of camera,
which actually produced great results.
But my goodness, I don't know if I would have been incapable because
there's so yeah so many
things you've got to get right and you don't find out until you
develop your film whether you got them right and oh my
goodness I'm in total awe of those people who managed it then and I'm very grateful
(05:39):
to have my digital camera yeah and I mean anybody that's gone on holiday with
one of those underwater film cameras can attest to the fact that the photos
are never great you know you have the you have a couple that may have come out really well Well,
so I can imagine if your job is to catch the right photo and actually you're
sitting there with the pressure of that and knowing it's film and knowing you only have,
(05:59):
you know, 32 shots or whatever it is, it would be quite, quite an experience.
So I think there's probably some, some joys in being able to have the digital
side of things, but also, you know, I think you still have to do a lot of post-production.
So it's not like you've got the, you got the shot and that's it.
You actually have to take time in post-production, don't you?
(06:20):
Yes, still definitely. And I enjoy that. We talk about it as the digital darkroom.
And some photographers may be a bit poo-poo about processing.
Some people are real geniuses, and it's only the start of the process, taking the photo.
And I suppose I'm somewhere in the middle. I do think it's a necessary part
(06:41):
of creating the image that you want to do some processing.
And it's just another skill, which I quite enjoy getting the hang of.
What do you use just out of interest for your processing? For almost all of
it, I use Adobe Lightroom, which is really easy to use and has incredible amounts
of things you can do with it.
(07:02):
That's great. So tell me a little bit about your monthly columnist in Scuba
Magazine. What type of stuff do you write about?
Well, my brief is anything I want, which is a little bit worrying.
So bread baking? no it's got to be scuba related yeah I suppose um.
(07:25):
Whatever has happened to me takes my fancy
relating to the world of scuba so I kind of
I try and vary it a little bit so I might interview someone
as you're doing with me now but on a very much shortened scale
I might talk about a location that I've
been to recently recently I might maybe just
a feature of diving which I looking at
(07:47):
it again I think is something very odd one of my favorite
columns I wrote just after we were allowed to dive
again post-covid was about mask spitting which is if if you are already a scuba
diver you'll know that it is quite well quite common across the world some countries
tend to use artificial sprays but in the UK we We very much spit in our mask so that we can see in it.
(08:11):
And it's a bit of an essential. But in a world of COVID, we suddenly realized, oh, hang on.
This has other factors that we need to think about. So it's just,
yeah, a commentary on diving life, I suppose.
And what was your most recent article on? So the one that you just published. Yeah.
I, well, there've been a couple of good ones recently. I think I've actually,
(08:34):
I've got scuba mag on my doorstep. I haven't opened it yet.
And it's our, it's actually the 70th anniversary of the British Subaqua Club.
So again, looking back to the, the pioneers of the past is just incredible, I think.
And so the one hot off the press that I haven't opened yet is about my appreciation
actually for those diving pioneers.
(08:54):
I recently went on a dive trip to St Kilda which is one of the most far-flung
outreaches of the British Isles and I was.
Thrilled to even get out there because you got it at the right weather to get
out there and then it's visually spectacular it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site
both above and below the water so really brilliant place. Where is it north south east west?
(09:20):
It's very west so it's west of the
the outer hebrides okay wow 40 miles
from the nearest bit of outer hebrides so how
do you get there on a liveaboard a boat
that we live on which if you're overseas liveaboards
tend to be incredibly glamorous and full of
all all types of luxury whereas in
(09:42):
the uk they're often converted fishing boats so a bit of
a different experience but nonetheless good and and
fun and and that was was great but my column
was actually just appreciating that before I
was born even I think chap called Gordon Ridley
had written a guide to diving in St Kilda he
he founded an expedition scheme and he he ran some expeditions you know again
(10:08):
before the the sort of nice big boats that we've got now were being used and
and he wrote this guide to diving with some beautiful illustrations illustrations
and 180, I think, different dive sites.
And, you know, that is something that I can use now to inform myself.
And, you know, I think that's great. I think I really feel that power of contributing
(10:30):
to wider knowledge and wanting to do that.
But I think if I go back to my previous article, the contrast I wrote about
when I bumped into a great white shark underwater earlier this year.
So that was good. Wait, wait, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Back that one up again. You bumped into a great white shark
tell me more well actually thankfully I didn't bump
(10:50):
in literally I was probably about two meters away at the
closest but that's still pretty close that is really close where were you I
was in South Africa in Alishol I'm really really glad to say you weren't like
in Bournemouth or you know right off down in Dorset yeah somewhere right off
the coast so you're down in South Africa diving where one might think that there
(11:11):
may be a great white nearby nearby.
You happen to come upon one, but that's pretty close quarters to be next to a Great White.
Yes, it is. I will seek just to say that I wouldn't rule out having Great Whites in UK waters. Same.
Soon or even now, and we don't know about it, it's quite possible on their roots.
We've got food for them here.
(11:32):
And yes, as waters change, perhaps. But yes, more likely in South Africa,
although actually it wasn't quite the season for them. So it was a surprise.
And we were just doing a normal dive on the reef and the shark swam towards us.
It was absolutely incredible. incredible and she
(11:53):
was a female and she was I think
certainly between four and five meters in size really really
large just one and swimming directly towards me I would say as well and is that
like a danger moment where you're like she thinks I'm a seal I'm about to get
eaten like what's going through your head in that moment no well no I don't know if I'm.
(12:19):
I don't know if I'm just foolish I mean I absolutely I love
sharks I think they are incredible they're beautiful and so
I think mainly to the extent that I was thinking
and I'm not sure how much I was actually thinking I was thinking
come close come close so that I can take a photo
yeah yeah the obsessive underwater photographer and
(12:39):
my strobes only carry it probably a couple of
meters at most so she has to be pretty close for me to get what I
would consider a usable photo and and she
was quite relaxed so you can tell the shark's body
language broadly and I could tell that she
was very relaxed the fins were were out wide and just
curious but having said that of course she can
(13:01):
change that quite quickly and she's
a wild animal and I suppose it's it's
something it's not the type of thing that I worry about because if she
were going to bite me or eat me or whatever I
would had no say in the matter and it probably would have happened before well
the catastrophic thing would have happened before I was aware of it so
it's not something that I worry about and and really she was just curious about
(13:23):
me in the group and when when my flash went off when I took a photo she actually
wasn't sure what's this I wasn't expecting that and turned away from me and
towards the other divers and then when she saw the group of divers she thought
oh there's a lot of you actually and swam off so.
It was wonderful, but it was quite brief. And I love that you can kind of tell
(13:44):
the body language of the shark the same way you think about,
you know, you can tell if a horse is angry, you can tell if a dog's angry.
And the more time you spend with them, the more you can recognize that.
And so I think, you know, because we have this innate fear against sharks,
because of things like Jaws and all the different movies that we've seen that,
you know, the sharks come and attack people.
I wonder if actually we took the time to kind of recognize the same way you
(14:05):
would with a dog. There are certain dogs you wouldn't go up and pet because
you can see they're in a state of anxiety or they're snarling,
for instance, or they are barking. You know the signs.
And I wonder if we actually knew that about sharks, whether we'd have a different
relationship with them.
You said fins out. What else do we need to be looking for? Just in case,
you know, we're scuba diving and this lovely female great white is coming towards
(14:29):
us and we're super relaxed.
How do we know if she's relaxed? relaxed well yeah
as i say out wide tends to be more relaxed and as there's
maybe some more emotions the fins drop and become
sort of rigid i'm by no means a
shark expert but i do i try and educate myself as
much as possible and there's certainly different types of sharks that are
more of a threat and usually it's
(14:52):
not it's because
of how sophisticated their senses are actually
so bull sharks have been responsible for a lot of fatalities and things and
that tends to be because they're not very sophisticated in their sight and their
smell in comparison with some sharks and so they're more likely to to mistake
(15:14):
a usually a swimmer or a surfer for their prey.
Whereas other sharks less so and
i mean by a factor of many many
times we are more of a a threat to
sharks yeah yeah especially yeah boats and jet skis and
big nets and all the rest of it yeah and and
(15:35):
i mean there's i think there's about 200 and some odd species of sharks and
there are only several of them that would even harm you isn't there something
there's something you probably know the stats a lot better than i do well i
wish i'd got my notes with me because i mean there'd be more more as i say there's
over 20 species of shark in uk waters alone so there's certainly Certainly more species than that,
but we are what with bycatch or long lining,
(15:59):
then we are directly responsible for their deaths, but also in our destruction
of their habitat and in climate change and changes there, you know,
it's a really sad tale for them.
And sharks, you know, we might think of them as big, scary predators,
but it's certainly been shown, you know, as a top predator, they are responsible
for a healthy ecosystem.
(16:19):
You know so if we if we lose the sharks and
that impacts the sea as a whole i was
watching a special and they were talking about was it is
it rockfish or something that there's something they sell that is in
fish and chip shops it's actually shark yes it
might well be yeah i can't remember what it was called but
i was yeah and i think it was called rockfish or something but it
(16:40):
was actually it's actually shrimps maybe rock salmon yeah
yeah and it was actually it was actually shark which
i was just like and they did they did a whole bunch of they took it and
they studied it and they took it back to the labs and like no this actually
is it is shark yeah there's a really good charity operating in the uk called
bite back who are who would recommend checking out you know on their social
(17:01):
media and things for educating yourself and your friends about that kind of thing.
So this is something i really want to go back to because something you said
you said you've been doing this for about 20 years now.
We know we've had a massive amount of climate change that's happened that's
already impacted our waters around the world.
We've seen, you know, there's lots of reports coming out around the Great Barrier
(17:24):
Reef. If we get much more of an increase in water temperature,
you know, that a lot of that's going to be dying.
What have you noticed in terms of your diving, your photography,
the waters around the UK or elsewhere that
you've seen the impact of climate change in the
waters in general it's a really important question and it is something i do
(17:46):
i do think about but i am conscious i'm not a scientist and i wouldn't want
to make sweeping statements without the the backdrop to that certainly diving abroad.
Which i i try and do sort of maybe once a year
these days you know try and be a little bit bit thoughtful about travel
i have noticed going
(18:07):
to the tropics that coral coral
has bleached even in the coral
triangle the sort of the most beautiful areas
of underwater coral reefs in the
world in indonesia and the philippines say coral bleaching
which is indicating that it's it's dying and that's
due to rising temperatures and also in
(18:30):
the wildlife that we that i've seen there's effects called
el nino and la nina which are changes
in the ocean currents due to climate change which
mean that cold water or warm
streams aren't found perhaps where you might expect them
to be and that changes the wildlife so i've had a few trips where i haven't
(18:52):
seen the really big animals because the water's been warmer than normal and
they've stayed very deep so perhaps I might expect to see mantas and they are
there because scientists monitor them and perhaps have tagged them.
And we know that they're on the site, but they're maybe a hundred meters below
where I am because the water's... But certainly seeing the bleached corals is a really sad sight.
(19:17):
And in the UK, it's perhaps more difficult to tell, but I do think it's important,
particularly people like me who dive in the UK a lot, to try and contribute to that data.
So in recent times, I've tried. I'm not the best, but I'm trying to be better at recording what I see.
(19:38):
And there's an organization called Sea Search that is citizen science arm of
the Marine Conservation Society and they collect reports both on dive sites
and also on key species so they can see populations as they ebb and flow.
There have been some success stories, so things like crawfish they in the 1980s
(20:05):
and 1990s there was an absolute population dive.
Because they were overfished not least by divers actually who
picked them up and when I started my diving career I wasn't expecting to see
one wouldn't have known what one looked like really but now there was a no-take
sort of more of a I'm not sure to what what extent it was litigation,
(20:30):
but voluntary no-take in some cases, they can now be caught.
But we are seeing them bounce back very much. And I often see them now on the South Coast.
And people who are more rigorous with their science than I am have definitely
seen that there's a real population boom, which is lovely to see.
That's so cool. Thank you for sharing a positive story. That's always good to hear as well.
(20:54):
I lived in Ecuador when I was in high school, And we had the pepinillo de mar.
So the sea cucumbers were being overfished and were massively depleted.
And they actually were used as a delicatessen in certain dishes.
And so they actually had to get the Navy out there to protect the pepinillo de mar.
(21:15):
And it was a proper skirmish. It was a real thing because they were worth quite
a bit of money for these fishermen.
So yeah it's interesting how sometimes you
know you have to you have to protect it in order to have it come back and sometimes
they're over fish sometimes they're over caught and it's interesting
to hear that you're not noticing anything specifically like you're
not seeing a depletion of something in your
(21:37):
own dive so you're not going back to the same place over and over
and seeing a big change in the i
call it the floor and the fauna but i don't know what would the language would
you be that you'd use for yeah for sure it's mostly fauna underwater most things
are animals even if they look like plants i like it i like them so for people
(21:57):
that wanted to dive in the uk where would you say top places to go would be oh.
Hmm so many places i
mean i'm lucky i live in in bristol which i
can achieve various coasts relatively easily
so i happily dive devon dorset cornwall
wales and i particularly love scotland and
(22:20):
the various coasts of scotland and some of the sea locks there so difficult
to choose a favorite i suppose if you're learning then diving or snorkeling
on the south coast probably a bit more achievable for a lot of people it's a
bit warmer and less scary but there's so much to see,
and yeah scotland's got a special place in my heart
(22:43):
i think any place specifically in scotland that
you love some of
the sea locks they're all different um i've got a
few favorites and the west coast and
the east coast oh it's too hard anywhere anywhere and i hear there's a book
called wild and temperate that you may have been a contributor to that might
(23:06):
actually be all about yeah so what is it it's all about scuba diving in the
uk right it is yeah so probably good one for getting some ideas about where to dive around.
A chap called will appleyard put that together and
probably around covid time when we had nothing think better to do
than put a book together and it's a it's a guide to
diving spots across the uk and he got some
(23:28):
passionate people to talk about their favorite places
so there's a good area on devon there's specialists
on the east coast i think will did dorset himself and
and i covered some of my favorites right up
in the far north of scotland for that one oh and
so is that available on amazon or where can we get a copy of that
it is yeah wild and temperate seas wild and temperate
(23:50):
seas okay fabulous I think I'm going to grab that because I'm
so I'm so curious about diving here so I
grew up in very warm climates still a
lot of like warm water scuba a lot of warm water snorkeling
but then I've never even ventured I barely have ventured in to go swimming much
so the water is so cold so I think I need to get a wetsuit and I think I need
(24:12):
to at least get a snorkel to uh to start trying that out yeah definitely definitely
so we're talking about balance.
So really focusing a lot on your underwater photography and the scuba diving
that you do and how, you know, this is something that you're really passionate
about and that comes through pretty clearly.
And I love it when people have passions alongside of their day jobs.
(24:36):
So my first question is how much of your time, so if you were doing a pie chart
with a hundred percent of your time, and let's assume that, you know,
50% of it's sleeping, no, about, let's say, I am good at sleeping.
That's a decent amount of sleeping what percentage would you put on scuba and
underwater photography and post-production and writing and doing all that how
(24:58):
much time do you think you spend,
Oh, wow. Well, being a lawyer, I should be good at measuring my time by the
minutes, but I'll probably not.
And I do work full time, although many friends joke with me that they don't think I do.
It's funny that we try and cultivate this impression on social media and such,
don't we, that we're always out having fun.
But no, I do work full time. but but then
(25:21):
yes i i suppose with almost all
of my free time i am either heading to
the coast or planning a trip looking
at the weather forecast hopefully and or
or looking at my catalog and maybe doing a bit
of image polishing i do you know i
do spend a lot of time doing that but i get a lot of enjoyment out of
(25:44):
all of that i'm lucky my partner's got similar obsessions to
me so I'm not going to put a number on
it because that'll probably scare me but yeah it's
almost my free time I suppose and and you just said something
that's really interesting there so your partner also does is it are they into
underwater photography and also into scuba diving etc yes yes absolutely so
(26:08):
does that help yeah it does help but we egg each other on we're We're probably
both a bit competitive and we both love it.
Absolutely. So that's brilliant.
Cool. And when you take the photographs, what are they used for?
So do you have a gallery? Do you sell them online? What do you do with your photography?
I mean, the vast majority sit there on my hard drive. I don't do very much,
(26:32):
of course, because I enjoy the process of it and the taking of it.
So even if I didn't do anything with them, I don't suppose that would matter too much.
Because I still love scuba diving for the sake of it. Just the feeling of being
weightless underwater is one.
And I still enjoy the challenge, the technical challenge of photography.
(26:54):
So, you know, that is what taking the photos is for predominantly for me.
But having said that, yes, there's also an aspect of it, which is a bit competitive
in trying to create the best photos I can and then pitting myself against my friends and beyond.
So I help to run a photo group locally of other underwater photographers and
(27:17):
we sort of have a monthly competition.
There's a British Society of Underwater Photographers and we do the same.
And then there's other competitions, whether it be underwater specific or,
and wildlife more broadly. So I do sometimes enter some of those too.
And you've won a few. Tell us a bit about your winnings.
(27:43):
Yeah. It's terrible talking about your winnings because you think,
what if I never win anything ever again?
Well, then you would have had these winnings to pin up. So let's hear
about the ones that you've won already yeah I
so there I
mean there's a lot of photo competitions out there so
if it's something people are interested in doing you know
anything from sort of a magazine monthly competition
(28:06):
to you know all kinds of things around so I
don't enter everything because I think you could do that as a full-time job
but some of them when I really admire the the quality of what what they're putting
together and the organization doing it there's some good ones so I suppose I'm
really pleased to have done well in the British Wildlife Photography Awards a couple of times.
(28:28):
I think I got some postcards
made by them with one of my images so I've got a collection of
those at home which I can't like but yeah I've been highly commended
and runner-up is the highest I've gotten there but that's nice
also underwater photographer of the
year obviously plays to my my strengths that's a
really highly rated competition amongst underwater photographers of course and
(28:53):
I I'm really proud actually that I've managed to get at least an image in there
for the last seven years I think I've won one of the British categories three times so that's,
you know I'm really proud of that they you know
thousands of entrants not not as many perhaps as
then to British Wildlife Photography Awards where it's not
(29:13):
just underwater crazy people you know I'm
pleased with that and the European Wildlife
Photography Awards I got an image
through to those a couple of years ago which I really like because looking at
the collection of images that that wins that they are beautiful they have a
very artistic stylish type of image that they award and so I was just pleased
(29:36):
to be part of the collection there and that was a feather in my cap as well.
I bought the British Wildlife Photography Awards calendar for my daughter this year.
And so every month we turn it over and it is. They're beautiful images.
There are some that are quite funny.
There are some that are quite emotive. It's really, I really like it.
And some of them have a bit of a social aspect to them too.
(29:59):
Like you'll have, you know, a ring that's got like a ring, you know,
for the, what are they called? Soda, soda.
I'm going to call it soda pop, which is such a Latin American thing.
So yeah, the plastic that's kind of around a fin or something on a turtle,
and it can be quite emotive as well.
So I like the fact that photography can be art, it can be something that can
(30:21):
share information with people, it can be funny, and it can also be something
that's kind of highlighting a social issue that needs to be brought to life.
And that works underwater as well, because we see a lot, obviously,
in the news, we see lots of photography now because a lot of our news is on our phones.
So I love the fact that it's able to be used in that way as well.
(30:42):
Yeah, increasingly so, I think, and the competition's trying to have an environmental
message to them, and rightly so.
And as a photographer, I don't want to see quite distressing images of wildlife
being harmed in various ways, often by human hands.
But it's an important message to get out there yeah
yeah it really is so you're using quite a
(31:04):
bit of your time on the photography we're sleeping as well and
then we're working full time tell me about full-time work so this is not even
not even four days a week not even four and a half days a week this is five
days a week that you're working yeah but now that's it that balance works we'll
see moving forward i always keep it under review i suppose but for now it works Thanks.
(31:27):
Yeah, so yeah, I do work full time. I'm very grateful that I think my employer has a,
whether it's my immediate team, or the organisation generally,
they seem to have quite a positive and supportive attitude towards people having work life balance.
And that extends beyond maybe what might be standard to people like me who are
(31:49):
a bit unusual in how they want to spend all of their free time,
but I still get support and an element of flexibility.
And I really value that. I think it engenders loyalty in your employees when
they feel that there's a bit of give and take on that front.
Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. And a lot of times when we talk
about work-life balance or balancing life in work and life out of work,
(32:12):
because I think that there's life in work as well. I don't think it's like work and life balance.
You know, we We think about people with caring responsibilities or we think
about people that have something that they're dealing with outside of work that
they need to be able to deal with.
And I think it's really important, as you say, that it engenders loyalty when
(32:32):
you also are able to do your passion projects outside of work.
Because actually, when you're able to do the passion projects outside of work,
you're able to bring that passion to the work that you're doing as well.
Because you're a happier, more well-balanced person.
You're not feeling like you're not doing what you want to do when you're at work.
You're actually able to do your job when you're there, recognize the value of
(32:55):
it, paying your bills, recognizing the fact that you've trained as a lawyer.
You've spent a lot of time and effort to do this, and this is what your speciality
is, and you can still do that as well as the time and effort you've put into
this passion of scuba diving and of underwater photography.
Yeah, that's it. It's all part of the picture. Yeah, I do agree with you there.
(33:16):
And obviously, having a quite corporate job enables me to dedicate my time and
resources elsewhere for the rest of my life.
So for now, the balance is right.
But I think all of us should be looking at that on an ongoing basis and seeing what works. Yeah.
And let me ask you, in terms of what you do that you think works well.
(33:36):
So have there been times when things have been in better better balance than
not? And when is that looked well?
And when is it maybe not, maybe fallen short of the word well?
Well, yeah, I mean, it is a tricky one, isn't it?
I think all of us, when we have a stressful time at work, we value perhaps the
(34:00):
weekend, you know, the time when you're not at work for downtime,
but that stress impacts us sort of mentally and physically in ways perhaps we we don't envisage.
And I've seen it to an extent with myself, but also with friends who have been
really busy and they come away with me for the weekend and then their brain
(34:21):
just can't keep up and they make a stupid mistake.
So for example, in cold British waters, they forget to do their suit up properly
and they get absolutely drenched. That is an absolute classic.
And I often put it it down to people who's just a bit
frazzled and generally
speaking I I'm I'm
(34:43):
quite a relaxed person and I can deal but yeah I do have my moments when it
all gets a bit much and I suppose sometimes I feel you know it's great to fill
your weekends with brilliant exciting things but it is also important to have
just a relax actually and perhaps not to be doing anything and so.
(35:03):
Well but then it's always fun to to plan a
good exciting dive so yeah I uh I'm
not sure I take my own advice on that one but I think we need to keep
an eye on ourselves to make sure that we're not doing too much because ultimately
scuba diving it's it
can be a risky activity and you don't want to be going into it so tired that
you're not prepared properly what i think is really interesting as well and
(35:28):
maybe this is one for you answer is you said when you're kind of weightless
in the water and you're in there you really enjoy that is that also rejuvenation time for you.
Mm, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think there's that, you know,
a lot of times people think, oh, I need downtime.
So I need to sit on the couch and watch TV. And actually, that's,
(35:48):
that's not necessarily the best thing for you.
Because it is kind of, you know, your brain still ticking along,
you know, a lot of things that you watch can cause stress.
You know, you'll have emotional reactions to things.
So actually, you end up in a very heightened state of emotion when when you
watch certain things and actually going out and going for a walk or in your case,
going scuba diving or going for a swim or listening to music or reading a book
(36:13):
or just finding that space and time for yourself is really important because as you say,
even if it's an exciting dive off the back of an exciting week.
You know, you do need to be in a mental state where you can do that safely or
where you can show up to work in a way that's actually going to be beneficial
for your employer that you're not exhausted and, you know, falling asleep at at your desk.
(36:34):
And so it's quite interesting to hear you say that sometimes actually taking
that time off at the weekend is actually the way that you need to operate in
order to regenerate and to rejuvenate. And that is part of the balance.
It's not just about, what am I doing outside of work? What am I doing in work?
It's also about what are you doing to relax? What are you doing to reset?
(36:56):
What are you doing to detox, to unwind, to actually just get your brain to be
in a state of, I mean, it used to have a Sabbath.
It used to be a Sabbath that everything was shut down on Sundays,
even all the shops and everything.
You couldn't go and do anything on a Sunday, and everybody had to shut down.
But now we're like a 24-7 cycle, and so you have to find that time in your own
(37:20):
life that allows you to shut down.
I'm smiling because it is definitely still like that in Devon where my partner lives.
I can't do anything on a Sunday. but yeah yeah
i mean you're right sitting on the sofa isn't usually
the the best answer every now and then but you know get getting out and about
and some fresh air and sincere certainly does it for me but maybe it's just
(37:42):
a case of toning things down a bit so perhaps instead of driving for eight hours
to get to scotland maybe just you know heading to the nearest bit of coastline instead and yeah.
Do you get in the water just from the beach as well?
Or do you have to kind of just suit up and then just go straight in?
(38:03):
Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, you can do that for sure. I have some friends in
Dorset who are always just heading in even to a couple of meters of water.
And I was there doing that on a night dive myself last weekend.
And it was absolutely fantastic. just wading
into the water swimming out five minutes and
(38:25):
then in in three meters of water there was this fantastic squid
i love cephalopods i find them beautiful and fun
and fascinating so a really happy hour and a half in the dark hours on saturday
night i mean that's just wading in so you absolutely can do that it is different
to taking a boat or traveling a long way but it's it's just as fun in many ways. That's really cool.
(38:51):
Well, it's almost reached that time for me to ask you our two final questions.
So my first question for you is along this journey, what have you discovered
about yourself along the way?
Well, I suppose I've, I've always been a bit of a slow learner about myself.
It would be fair to say and I think
(39:13):
I've got to a place now a pretty happy place when I yeah I have my kind of corporate
career but I'm also pretty happy with the diving and photography side of it
and I guess it's been an outlet for a side of me that otherwise I wasn't I was
neglecting which is partly creative and.
Partly sort of learning and
(39:35):
the competitiveness and the passion for
sure so I've learned
a lot about myself in in through this activity in
ways that yeah the rest of my life I sort of focus
on other things so it's very very precious
to me I love it and I like that idea of you
know I often say finding that thing that you really love to
(39:58):
do if it's not in work find it outside of
work work so you can just fulfill that passion because sometimes
you'll have you know if you're in if you're in high school if you're
in university and you do something really creative
so you do you know plays or you do singing
or you do art or you do you know diving i mean you were part of you know in
your university you were part of a dive club and then you leave and you go out
(40:22):
into the corporate world and you're not doing that anymore there's actually
a bit of a mourning a bit of a a loss from not being able to have those creative outlets.
And so sometimes, you know, you do unhealthy stuff around that and sometimes
you find it in other ways.
And so I love that you've been able to find that creative outlet.
And I would encourage listeners if they're feeling a bit of a drought around
(40:42):
that, see if you can go and, you know, do an art class or, you know,
go find a scuba team that's near you that, what are they called?
You're not called scuba teams. what are they called go find a
dive club or go find a dance class or something that can
help you to to have that outlet because again that's part of that balance is
(41:04):
finding the joy in in life finding the joy in what you do yeah and I suppose
I haven't focused on it much today at it not intentionally but there's definitely
the community side to that as well which I've also found and and really appreciate.
Finding your tribe is a really valuable thing, isn't it? And it's quite a niche hobby that I have.
But equally, the people that also do that are good friends and very precious
(41:28):
relationships through that as well.
And I can imagine like having the like-minded people means you're spending the time with them.
Because you said you spend all your free time when you're not working doing this.
And so it's actually, that's your group of friends. You can go diving with your partner.
You can go off with friends on a weekend for a night dive, you know, in Devon.
Like you can find those ways to amalgamate the two because you have those similar passions.
(41:53):
And as you said, you found your tribe. I love that. and final
question is what's the best piece of advice you've ever
received heard overheard read in
a really good scuba magazine this is
a tricky one i i've had
good advice through over the years from a
(42:14):
number of friends and contemporaries or mentors underwater i often and value
constructive criticism and I remember going on a workshop with with Alex Mustard
who's he's a friend but also an incredibly fantastic photographer and teacher and him telling me that,
he sort of he did the whole sandwich of feedback as you do of saying that uh
(42:38):
yeah this is okay but this is really not very good.
And I do value that I think you you learn through people being honest with you
but having said that also through my photo group, various chairmen of that over the years.
Arthur Kingdon used to be chairman of BUPG, another fantastic photographer.
(43:01):
And it's incredibly encouraging to up and coming new members.
And he'd always find something nice to say about your photo when it was on screen.
And if he couldn't think of anything, he'd sort of say, good effort, which is lovely.
But in terms of.
Advice i suppose i think the something
(43:22):
which can be applied to what i do but to
any number of other things as well is that
whole principle that it's
the time you put in beforehand that's so important
that preparation and it's definitely true in what i do because we have physical
constraints diving as to how much time we can spend in the water whether it's
(43:45):
the cold or how much gas we've got up with this or whatever so you might only
be on a day's diving spending two hours in the water,
but before then you are you're spending
time prepping your kit choosing your camera learning your techniques in my case
i think it's really important to learn about the marine life you're looking
to to see whether that be its its behavior when and where you're likely to see
(44:10):
it looking at the condition you know all of these things that you think about
beforehand are so important so So,
you know, the advice that I'm sure I've had in a number of ways over the years
and I would give to others is that that time spent preparing for what you do
is really valuable time. And it's all part of the fun as well.
(44:30):
Yeah, I love that. And even just, you know, as we said, your passion comes through
in this, but also the knowledge that you've acquired through this comes through as well.
I know you said you're not a scientist, you're not an expert several times,
but actually I think you're probably getting pretty close.
So this is an absolute pleasure. And Kirstie, thank you so much for sharing your love of diving.
(44:52):
Thank you for teaching us a little bit about scuba diving in the UK.
I'm definitely going to be picking up this book that you contribute to,
Wild and Temperate Seas. It sounds fabulous.
And just really sharing about the balance that you found and how you've managed
to do that and just really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
(45:16):
Join me next time when I speak to our next guest about how they are balancing
on the proverbial seesaw.
If you're looking for an executive coach or want to get in touch,
check out my website, kljconsulting.co.uk, or shoot me an email on the Undiscovered
You podcast at gmail.com.
If you're enjoying the podcast and would like to support me in putting out more
(45:37):
content, why not buy me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com forward slash undiscovered you.
Don't forget to follow, subscribe, like and comment below and I hope that you're
one step closer to discovering.
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