November 28, 2022 • 45 mins
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com
S3E41 TRANSCRIPT:----more----
Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm Mark, one of your hosts.
Yucca: and I'm Yucca.
Mark: and today we have a really exciting episode. We have an interview with a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, Michael, who is joining us today, and is gonna tell us about his journey and what this community means to him and his vision for the future and all kinds of cool stuff.
So welcome.
Michael: Well, thank you very much for having me.
Mark: I'm delighted to have you here,
Yucca: Thanks for coming on.
Michael: Yeah, no, I'm excited.
Yucca: Yeah. So why don't we start with so who are you? Right? What's, what's your journey been to get here?
Michael: Gosh. Well, I kind of have to start at the very beginning. So my name's Michael and you know, I've, I start, sometimes I go by Mícheál, which is my Irish, the Irish version of my name. And that's something I've been using more as I've been involved in the Pagan community. My parents are both Irish and.
They moved to the United States in their early eighties cuz my dad got a green card working over there
Mark: Hmm.
Michael: and I was born in America. And then they decided they want to move back to Ireland then in 1991. So already I had this kind of dissected identity. Was I American or was I Irish? I never really lost my American accent.
When I, when I moved to Ireland my sister who was born in Ireland, she actually has a slight American accent just from living with me. So she never people always ask her, are you, are you American? And she's like, I've never lived there. So it's funny that it's kind of stuck with her, but I moved to Ireland and I suddenly was kind of got this culture shock at the age of five and moving to this new country.
And my mother has a very large family, so she has like, two, two brothers and seven sisters, and then I've got like 30 cousins. So , it was a big, a big change from AmeriCorps. It was just the three of us. Moving back to Ireland and. It was a very, you know, Ireland, you know, is, would've been considered a very Catholic country, and it's been kind of secularizing since the nineties up until now.
But back then it was still quite Catholic. Like homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1992 and divorce was only made legal in 1995. So, I guess the first kind of sense of, of what I meant to be Irish back then was, You know, you learned Irish in school, you learned to speak Irish in school, and this was very it wasn't taught very well, I would say, and I think most Irish people would agree with that.
It's kind of taught like almost like Latin or something as a dead language rather than as a living language. So you're spending time learning all this grammar. And you don't kind of develop that love of it that I think you should. I did go to like Irish summer camp in the Gaeltacht . The Gaeltacht is the Irish speaking area of Ireland, and I kind of became aware of my Irishness, you know, just through being part of all this and also. I would've introduced myself as American when I was little but people didn't really like that. It was kind of a, like a weird thing to do. So my mom eventually told me, maybe you should just stop paying that. And so throughout my I, you know, as I mentioned, it was a very Catholic country.
And when I was in the Gaeltacht in Irish summer camp one of the kids said they were atheist. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't believe in God. And I was, and in my head I was like, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know that was an option. . So I kind of thought about it for a while.
I became, we started studying the Reformation in school when I was about 14. And t
Mark as Played
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:32):
Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism.
I'm Mark, one of your hosts,
Yucca (00:37):
and I'm Yucca.
Mark (00:39):
and today we have a really exciting episode.
We have an interview with a member ofthe Atheopagan Society Council, Michael,
who is joining us today, and is gonnatell us about his journey and what this
community means to him and his vision forthe future and all kinds of cool stuff.
So welcome.
Michael (01:01):
Well, thank you very much for having me.
Mark (01:03):
I'm delighted to have you here,
Yucca (01:05):
Thanks for coming on.
Michael (01:07):
Yeah, no, I'm excited.
Yucca (01:09):
Yeah.
So why don't we start with so who are you?
Right?
What's, what's yourjourney been to get here?
Michael (01:16):
Gosh.
Well, I kind of have tostart at the very beginning.
So my name's Michael and you know, I've,I start, sometimes I go by me Hall, which
is my Irish, the Irish version of my name.
And that's something I'vebeen using more as I've been
involved in the Pagan community.
My parents are both Irish and.
(01:40):
They moved to the United Statesin their early eighties cuz my dad
got a green card working over there
Mark (01:45):
Hmm.
Michael (01:46):
and I was born in America.
And then they decided they want tomove back to Ireland then in 1991.
So already I had this kindof dissected identity.
Was I American or was I Irish?
I never really lost my American accent.
When I, when I moved to Ireland my sisterwho was born in Ireland, she actually
(02:07):
has a slight American accent just fromliving with me, . So she never people
always ask her, are you, are you American?
And she's like, I've never lived there.
So it's funny that it's kind of stuckwith her, but I moved to Ireland
and I suddenly was kind of got thisculture shock at the age of five
and moving to this new country.
And my mother has a very largefamily, so she has like, two, two
(02:29):
brothers and seven sisters, andthen I've got like 30 cousins.
So , it was a big, a bigchange from AmeriCorps.
It was just the three of us.
Moving back to Ireland and.
It was a very, you know, Ireland,you know, is, would've been
considered a very Catholic country,and it's been kind of secularizing
since the nineties up until now.
(02:50):
But back then it was still quite Catholic.
Like homosexuality was onlydecriminalized in 1992 and divorce
was only made legal in 1995.
So, I guess the first kind of senseof, of what I meant to be Irish back
then was, You know, you learned Irishin school, you learned to speak Irish
in school, and this was very it wasn'ttaught very well, I would say, and I think
(03:15):
most Irish people would agree with that.
It's kind of taught like almost likeLatin or something as a dead language
rather than as a living language.
So you're spending timelearning all this grammar.
And you don't kind of develop thatlove of it that I think you should.
I did go to like Irishsummer camp in the Gal talk.
The gal talk is the Irish speakingarea of Ireland, and I kind of became
(03:40):
aware of my Irishness, you know, justthrough being part of all this and also.
I would've introduced myself asAmerican when I was little but
people didn't really like that.
It was kind of a, likea weird thing to do.
So my mom eventually told me, maybeyou should just stop paying that.
And so throughout my I, you know, as Imentioned, it was a very Catholic country.
(04:07):
And when I was in the Gale talkin Irish summer camp one of the
kids said they were atheist.
And I was like, what does that mean?
I'm like, I don't believe in God.
And I was, and in my head I was like,I didn't know you could do that,
I didn't know that was an option.
. So I kind of thought about it for a while.
I became, we started studying theReformation in school when I was about 14.
(04:35):
And then I learned that Catholicsbelieved in transubstantiation and
nobody had really mentioned that before.
They didn't really teach thecatechism very well, I guess.
I'd done my communion and my confirmation,but nobody ever mentioned that.
We literally believed that the,the body and blood, you know,
was that the bread and water?
Oh, sorry.
The bread and wine actuallybecame literally, And the body.
(05:00):
And I thought that was a very strangething, that that was a literal thing.
It wasn't just symbolic.
And then we also studiedCalvinism and all that stuff.
And I was like, then I started toread the Bible and I was like, then
it fun, it finally just dawned onme that I didn't believe any of
this, and it was kind of liberating.
But it was kind of a way of being d.
In a very homogenous society too.
(05:22):
You could be a bit of a rebel.
So I think I was one of those annoyingteenagers who was always questioning
everybody and having, trying to havedebates with everybody about religion
and they didn't enjoy that . And so Iwent through school and I just remember
hating studying the Irish languageuntil eventually when I left school.
On the last day, I actually took all my.
(05:42):
My Irish textbooks and burntthem and I feel I . Yeah.
I mean I feel so much guilt and regretabout that and I think about that how
important it's to me now and that, thatwas a real shame that, but I didn't,
(06:05):
partially I didn't put the work in,but also I just think the structure.
Was not there.
I mean so many Irish people come out ofoutta school not really know, knowing
how to speak the language, you know,and I think it is an effective col
colonization as well, where, you know,you consider English is a useful language
and learning French or Spanish, that'sa useful thing, but there's no use for
(06:28):
Irish in people's minds, which is a,and I find that a real shame and I.
could go back and change that.
In university I studied anthropologyand history because I was
very interested in religion.
All throughout my teenage years, Iwas obsessed with learning about world
religions, you know, there was a worldreligion class in, in secondary school.
(06:48):
I didn't get into it, but Ibegged the teacher to allow me to.
Into it because I was sointerested in the topic.
And he was like, fine, fine.
And he kind of thought he'd humorme in one class one day and he
was like, well, Michael, maybeyou could talk about satanism.
That's the topic for today.
And I was like, well, let'sstart with Al Crowley.
And he was like, okay, maybehe actually knows what he is
(07:10):
talking about So, I went, I.
I went to the university sorry, nationalUniversity of Ireland, Minuth Campus.
And it's funny because thatused to be known as so it's
actually, it's two campuses.
They're St.
Patrick's college, which islike a, a seminary for priests.
(07:32):
And there's the I, which is like thesecular version, and they're both,
but they both share the same compass.
So it's funny, it used to be the,the biggest seminary in Europe.
They call it the priest factory cuzthey pumped out so many priests that
sent, sent them all over the world.
And it's when you go out andyou walk down the corridors, you
see all the graduating classes.
(07:53):
So you go back to 1950 andyou see a graduating class
of like a hundred priests.
And every year as you're goingdown the corridor, it gets
smaller and smaller and smaller.
Until I think the year I graduated, therewas like two people graduating as priests.
Yeah.
So that was, that was a, I decided tostudy history and anthropology at n Y
Minuth and one of the books that I read.
(08:16):
Was kind of a gateway into thinkingabout land and language, which are two
things that are really important tome in my, when I think about Paganism.
It's a book called wisdom Sits in Placesby Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and.
I'm just gonna read a little bithere from the book because he was an
(08:39):
anthropologist working with the Apache,the Western Apache, to try and remap
the land using the Native Apache wordsrather than the, the English words.
So trying to make a native map andworking with Apache people to find all
the true, the true names of all these.
so this is the quote, but already ononly our second day in the country
(09:02):
together a problem had problem had comeup for the third time in as many tries.
I have mispronounced the Apachename of the boggy swale before us.
And Charles, who is weary of repeatingit, has a guarded look in his eyes
after watching the name for a fourth.
I acknowledged defeat andattempted to apologize for my
(09:23):
flawed linguistic performance.
I'm sorry, Charles.
I can't get it.
I'll work on it later.
It's in the machine.
It doesn't matter.
It matters.
Charles says softly to me in English,and then turning to speak to Morley.
He addresses him in WesternApache, is what he said.
(09:43):
What he's doing isn't right.
It's not good.
He seems to be in a.
Why is he in a hurry?
It's disrespectful.
Our ancestors made this name.
They made it just as it is.
They made it for a reason.
They spoke it first a long time ago.
He's repeating thespeech of our ancestors.
(10:05):
He doesn't know that.
Tell him he's repeating thespeech of our ancestors.
And I'm gonna just there's anothersection here, a little, a few pages.
But then unexpectedly in one of thosecourteous turnabouts that Apache
people employ to assuage embarrassmentin salvage damaged feelings,
(10:27):
Charles himself comes to the rescuewith a quick corroborative grin.
He announces he is missing severalteeth and that my problem with
the place name may be attributableto his lack of dental equipment.
Sometimes he says he is hard to underst.
His nephew, Jason, recently told him that,and he knows he tends to speak softly.
(10:50):
Maybe the combination of too few teeth andtwo little volume accounts for my failing.
Short morally, on the other hand,is not so encumbered though shy.
Two, a tooth or two.
He retains the good ones for talkingand because he's not afraid to
speak up, except as everyone knowsin the presence of gar women no
one has trouble hearing what he.
(11:12):
Maybe if Morley repeated theplace name again slowly and with
ample force, I would get it right.
It's worth a try, cousin.
And then he, I'm just gonna skip forwarda bit and he successfully pronounces
the name, which translates as waterLies with mud in an open container.
Relieved and pleased.
I pronounce the name slowly.
Then I, then a bit more rapidlyand again, as it might be spoken.
(11:33):
In normal conversation, Charleslistens and nods his head in.
. Yes.
He says in Apache, that is how ourancestors made it a long time ago,
just as it is to name this place.
Mm-hmm.
So this became important to me whenthinking about the Irish language
(11:55):
because something similar happenedin Ireland in the you know, we
have all our native Irish place.
But in the 1820s the British Army'sOrdinance survey came and decided
they were gonna make these namespro pronounceable to English ears.
And so they kind of tore up thenative pronunciation and kind of
push an English pronunciation on top.
(12:16):
So you have these very strange EnglishAnglo size versions of Irish Place names
Yucca (12:21):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (12:22):
Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't
really have anything to do with the Irish.
And there are plenty of, there are so manyexamples of this and I think when you're
trying to learn about a landscape in yourrelation to a ship, to a landscape, it
is important to know the native place.
It's something that I thinkabout a lot and I try to learn.
(12:43):
One of my favorite writers is named TimRobinson, and he's well he died in 2020.
But I had the opportunity to meet him in2009 and he was an English cartographer.
But he moved to the west of Ireland,to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara.
So he kind of movedbetween those two places.
He lived there for more than 30 years,and what he actually did was he went out
(13:06):
and mapped the landscape and talked tolocal people, and he was able to find
some of the place names that had beenlost over the years that weren't on the
official maps, and he was able to helprecreate a Gaelic map of those areas.
I think that's a really kind ofreligious or spiritual activity to
(13:26):
go out onto the land and walk it.
And to name it and to name it correctly.
And I think that's what I thinkmy pagan path is in a way.
It's to go and walk the landand learn it, what to call it.
Cause I think language is the mostimportant tool we have as pagans.
Mark (13:49):
Hmm.
Michael (13:51):
So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff.
I've always been interested in folk.
It was actually funny.
There was, it started with a videogame one of the legend of Zelda
video games called Major's Mask
Mark (14:03):
Hmm.
Yucca (14:03):
Yep.
Michael (14:04):
in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival
and they dis they discuss thethe history of the festival.
Anna was just like, wow, I didn't,I ended up making masks with my
sister and we kind of pretended to.
A little mask festival of our own
Yucca (14:22):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (14:22):
that you're, you're familiar with that?
Yucca?
Yucca (14:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I played a lot of it.
Michael (14:29):
Yeah.
So, but I guess I really started tothink about folklore when when I watched
the Wickerman as um, as a teenager.
I was probably at 16 when I watched it,and it kind of opened my eyes completely.
And we've talked a lotabout this in the group.
And I.
It's watched as a horrormovie in a way, but
(14:51):
I think I really got into the, thepaganism idea of, of paganism as a
teenager because of watching the Wickmanand just the symbolism and the pageantry.
And I also just like the idea.
These island people turning on thestate in the form of, of the policeman.
So that's kind of been something I'vethat I've really enjoyed over the years,
(15:12):
watching that every every May as part ofmy, my, my annual ritual so, you know,
after university, I, I moved to SouthKorea to teach English, and, but at the
same time I was quite into Buddhism.
I had been practicing some Zen Buddhismfrom about the age of 18, and, but
(15:34):
not like, more as just a practicerather than believing in any of it.
Not believing in reincarnationor anything like that.
I just found the ritualof it very beautiful.
And I ended up going and doing a templestay in a, in a place at, at a temple.
Up in the mountains and it wasvery beautiful and really amazing.
(15:58):
You know, something you'd see in amovie because the monk, the head monk
actually brought us out into a bamboogrove and we sat there meditating
just with all surrounded by bamboo.
And it was waving in the wind andit felt like a correction, tiger
Hidden dragon or something like that.
And one of the powerful eventsthat happened on that trip.
(16:19):
Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where weate in in the style of a Buddhist monk.
And the idea is that you donot leave any food behind.
After you're, after you're finishedeating, you've, you eat all the food,
and then when you wash the bowls andthey kind of put the communal water back
into the, the, the waste bowl, thereshould be no no bit of food, nothing.
(16:43):
It should just be clean water.
That comes out of, after everybodyfinishes washing all their bowls.
So we followed all the steps todo that and, you know, some people
really, really weren't into it.
They didn't wanna do the workof, of being extremely thorough.
And there were a few rice piecesof rice in the water at the end and
(17:05):
the head monk said to us oh, thatwill now get, you're, you're gonna
cause pain to the hungry to ghost.
Because the hungry goats ghosts haveholes in their throats, and when
we pour the water outside for thehungry ghosts, the rice particles
are gonna get stuck in their throats.
And a lot of people were like, what?
(17:26):
What are you talking about
Mark (17:27):
Hmm.
Michael (17:28):
But I thought that was beautiful because it
doesn't, not, you don't have to.
It's a story that has a purpose, andthat's why, you know, It made me think
about the superstitions that we have.
And I don't know if I like superstitionlike these, calling it that.
Cause I think a lot of thesethings have purpose and you have to
(17:50):
look for the purpose behind them.
And the purpose of that story of the honkygo story, maybe for him it is about not
causing harm to these, these spirits,but it's also about not wasting food.
And I think it, it has morepower and more meaning.
And you remember.
(18:10):
More thoroughly when you have a storylike that to back up this, this practice.
So I think it kind of made me rethink alot about the kind of folkloric things
that I, in my, in the Irish traditionand that, you know, I think about
things like fairy forts, which are, youknow, the, these are the archeological
(18:32):
sites that you find around Ireland.
Like, I think there's like60,000 left around the country.
These, these circular.
Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw,or saw that you find all over the country
and people don't disturb them becausethey're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck.
The, if you, if you disturb the,the fair fort the ferry's gonna come
(18:52):
after you , or if you could, or ifyou cut down a tree, a lone tree.
Lone trees that grow in the middle offields that don't have a, a woodland
beside them, just singular trees.
These are known as fairy trees andit's bad luck to cut them down.
But I feel like these folk beliefs helppreserve the past as well, because, you
know, farmers who don't have this belief,they don't have any problem tearing
(19:16):
down fray, forts and that kind of thing.
They just see it as a, something in theway of them farming, especially in the
kind of age of industrial agriculture.
Yeah.
So it just made, that was when Istarted to think about how important
it is to keep folk belief alive.
And I've really, and I really started tostudy Irish folk belief after that point.
(19:40):
And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned.
I met my wife there, she's from Iowaand she was also teaching in, in South
Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that.
And we lived there for a couple of years,and I might come back to that later.
(20:00):
But fast forwarding, we movedto Iowa then in 2013, and I'm
teaching a course in Irish.
At a local community college,but I always start with this
poem by Shama Heini Boland.
And I just wanted to readtwo extracts from it.
(20:21):
So the first stands out is wehave no prairies to slice a
big sun at evening everywhere.
The eye concedes to encroaching.
And then moving downwards.
Our pioneers keep strikinginwards and downwards.
(20:42):
Every layer they strip, they, everylayer they strip seems camped on before.
So I, I started with thatinitially, kind of trying to, as,
it was almost like a gateway formy students to kind of look at.
Look at Iowa with its historic prairies,which don't really exist anymore.
It's all farmland.
(21:03):
There's very little prairie land left.
I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie.
But that idea, that idea of ourpioneers strike downwards, and I've
been thinking about that a lot as well,that that's kind of a, a colonial look
at the land because this land, theAmerican land has is just as camped.
(21:27):
As Ireland, and I've been kind ofexperiencing that more and more.
I have a friend who's an archeologisthere and just hearing them talk about
the kinds of fines that they have.
You know, we lived in a town wherethere was a Native American fishing
weir was a couple of hundred years old.
It you could kind of see the remains, butit mostly washed away by the time we had.
(21:49):
But I did see an old postcardof it from the seventies, and
you could see it very clearly.
And so just make, and then we alwaysit's become a ritual every every autumn,
we go up to northeast Iowa to these,to these effigy mounds, which are some
Native American mounds up there ona bluff, just overlooking the miss.
Mark (22:09):
Hmm.
Michael (22:09):
And that's really amazing to look at that and
experience and experience that.
And you know, I'd love to go back,unfortunately, Shamus, he died more
than 10 years ago now, but I'd loveto go back and ask him if he would
consider rewriting that line, you know,because this land is just as a count on
Yucca (22:30):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (22:31):
and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means.
As an Irish person living in America,
Yucca (22:38):
Mm.
Michael (22:38):
Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism,
Mark (22:43):
Hmm.
Michael (22:46):
Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became
white as well and had the samecolonial attitudes as everybody.
And I'm trying to kind of, but youknow, there's, there's, there's kind
of stories of reciprocation as well.
Where during the famine, the Irishfamine the, I think, I believe
(23:09):
it was the Chota Nation sentEmin relief to the AR to Ireland.
Even though they didn't have muchthemselves, they still saw this.
People in need across the waterand they sent money to help.
And, you know, there's that connectionbetween the Chta nation and the
Irish has continued to this day.
But I am just trying to figure outwhat it means to be an Irish person
(23:34):
and a pagan living in this country.
And that's kind of whereI, where I am right now.
But to get back to how I got intoEthiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier
that I was really into the Wickermanand I found this group called Folk
folk Horror Revival on Facebook.
And somebody one day mentioned thatthere was this group called Atheopagan.
(23:59):
And so I decided to join and Ifound a lot of like-minded people.
And I've been kind of involvedin the community for, for,
I think that was maybe 2018.
Mark (24:08):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (24:09):
And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe
on a bigger, I've been much moreinvolved since Covid started and we
started doing our Saturday mixers.
And I think I've made maybe 90% of those
Mark (24:25):
something
Michael (24:25):
and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last
three years and it's just been.
It's a really amazing, it's one ofthe highlights of my week to spend
time with with other people inthat, in that hour and 45 minutes
that we spend every Saturday.
Mark (24:39):
Mm.
Michael (24:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:41):
Yeah, I, I really agree with you.
That's, I, it's a highlightof my week as well.
Such warm, thoughtful peopleand so diverse and living
in so many different places.
It's yeah, it's just a really good thingto do on a Saturday morning for me.
And.
We'll probably get into this morea little bit later, but the idea of
(25:04):
creating human connection and communitybuilding I know is really important to
you and it's really important to me too.
I think there have been other sortof naturalistic, pagan traditions
that have been created by people,but they just kind of plunked them
on the internet and let them sit.
And to me it's.
That would be fine if I werejust gonna do this by myself.
(25:26):
But when other people started saying,I like this, I want to do this too.
To me that meant, well thenwe should all do it together.
Right?
Let's, let's build a community andsupport one another in doing this.
And so the Saturday mixers, whenwe, when Covid started, I think.
I mean, to be honest, COVID did some greatthings for the Ethiopia, pagan community.
Yucca (25:49):
Yeah.
Mark (25:50):
yeah.
Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's
Yucca (25:53):
Well that's the silver linings, right?
That's one of the thingswe, you know, life goes on.
We have to find the, the, thebenefits and the good things,
even in the challenging times.
Mark (26:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michael (26:10):
yeah.
I think.
I'm just thinking back to when we started.
So it's kind of, we have maybesix or seven regulars who
come to every meeting maybe.
And then we have other people whojoin now and then, but I'm just trying
to think back to the first meeting.
I think we, that's when the ideaof doing virtual ritual began
(26:30):
as well in that first meeting.
And we were trying tofigure out how to do.
Yucca (26:33):
Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was
it as a response to Covid?
Mark (26:41):
You know, honestly, I don't remember.
I think it must have been in responseto Covid because everybody was shut
in and, you know, everybody waskind of starving for human contact.
Michael (26:54):
I think the first one may have been March or April.
2020,
Yucca (27:00):
Okay, so right there at the.
Michael (27:02):
Yeah, right at the beginning.
Yeah.
And I think, I remember in the firstmeeting we were talking about ritual
ideas and I think the first suggestionI came up with was like I'd love to
somebody do like a, describe whatan atheopagan temple might look.
Mark (27:23):
Oh yeah.
Michael (27:24):
Yeah.
And I left, and I think you were recordingthe meetings at that time, but we don't
record 'em anymore, just so people canfeel free to be themselves and not have
a recorded recording of themselves outthere, . But I know that, I think James
who you interviewed recently he, hewas listening to that one, I believe,
and he came the next week and actuallyhad prepared a guided meditation.
(27:45):
Of what a pagan templewould be like to him.
And it was a walk through nature.
I think that was the first, ourfirst online ritual together.
Mark (27:55):
Yeah, I remember that now.
Yeah, and it's been, it's really beena journey trying to figure out how,
how can you do these ritual thingsover a, a video conferencing platform.
In a way that makes everybody feellike they're participating and engaged.
Right.
So that there's a, atransformation of consciousness.
(28:17):
But I think we've donepretty well, to be honest.
I mean, some of the rituals that we'vedone have been really quite moving.
Michael (28:25):
Yeah.
And I think the ritual framework thatyou've worked at translates very well to.
A Zoom conference as well.
I dunno if maybe, if he wantsto describe that, what the usual
atheopagan ritual would look like.
Mark (28:37):
Sure.
We've, we've talked about this before.
The, the, the ritual structure that Iproposed in my book is basically a, a
five step process where the first isarrival, which is sort of, Transitioning
into the ritual state of mind fromthe ordinary state of mind, and then
(29:00):
the invocation of qualities that area part that we'd like to be a part of
the ritual with us, which is sort ofthe equivalent in Wicca or other pagan
traditions of invoking spirits or gods orwhat have you, ancestors, what have you.
And then the main working of theritual, which varies depending on
(29:22):
what the purpose of the ritual is.
But it can be, well, we've donelots of different kinds of things.
We've braided ribbons and then tied,not tied magical knots in them.
We've made siles, we've we've donejust lots of different kinds of things.
And then gratitudeexpressions of gratitude.
The things that we're grateful for.
(29:44):
And then finally, benediction,which is sort of the closing of the
ritual at a declaration that we'removing back into ordinary time.
Yucca (29:51):
So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom
meeting In a digital format?
Mark (30:01):
Michael, you want to take that one or should I?
Michael (30:03):
So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have
a ritual more people attend that andso we might have 12 people there and
often
Yucca (30:14):
cameras on.
Michael (30:15):
Camera's on.
Well, it's optional.
Yeah.
If you don't feel comfortable havingyour camera on, that's completely
fine and you don't even have to speak.
We do encourage people just toyou know, leave a message in the
chat so you can just listen in.
You can engage as muchor as little as you want.
And you, you, so.
(30:35):
We have all the people on in theconference, and maybe we'll try and get
some more of the senses involved as well.
So sometimes we'll like candlesand everybody will have a
candle in front of them.
I do know for for someof our sound rituals.
Mark, you've used two cameraswhere you, you aim one camera at
maybe a focus, like what's oneof the examples of that that you.
Mark (30:55):
Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu.
So both the Halls ritual and the Yuleritual where I would create a focus
or alter setup with thematic andsymbolic things relating to the season.
and then I would point, I wouldlog into Zoom with my phone
and point my phone at that.
(31:18):
And then, and then I'd log in separatelyon my laptop for myself as a person,
and then I could spotlight the focusso that it's kind of the centerpiece
of what everybody experiences ontheir screen and sets the atmosphere.
Michael (31:37):
Yeah.
So just a virtual focus thateverybody can, everybody
can virtually gather around.
Yucca (31:42):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (31:43):
Yeah.
And I think we've also used a Pinterestboard in the past as well for people.
I think it was at Sound again,we had that Pinterest board where
people could put up notes about.
Their ancestors or loved ones thatthey were That's correct, isn't it?
Mark (31:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or pictures of people thathad passed recently or.
Yucca (32:01):
mm.
Michael (32:01):
yeah.
So yeah, there's a lot of digitalspace that you can use for this ritual.
We also try not to involvetoo many props as well.
Because we wanna make it as easy aspossible for people of all abilities.
And just if you don't have the spacefor something, for a large proper if
you don't wanna make a lot of noise,you know, we're not gonna have you
(32:22):
using chimes or things like that.
So we try and make it as easy as possible.
Sometimes we do invite you to bring somefood to eat as well, because, you know,
a lot of these are feasting rituals.
So we maybe, if you feelcomfortable bringing some
refreshments, you might want to do.
And just have a friendlymeal with people online.
For example, we're actually gonna startdoing I'm gonna be leading full Moon
(32:44):
meals every month on the, on the, sothe first one's gonna be December 7th.
And I'll post, post about that onDiscord, and I think Mark will post
about that in the Facebook group.
Yeah.
And so the idea is everybody just comes.
Joins the Zoom meeting andeverybody should have their meal.
(33:05):
Whether you're, whether that'slunch or if you're in a different
time zone, maybe there'll bedinner or maybe it's just a snack.
And then we'll spend a minute justthinking about the providence of the
food and then we'll eat us and maybepeople can talk about the food that
they're eating and what it means to.
(33:25):
And I'm hoping to make that amonthly event that we meet every
full moon to share a meal together
Mark (33:33):
That
sounds.
I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over howlittle I pay attention to the full moon.
I'm, I'm always, I'm always awareof what phase the moon is in, but
I, I don't do a lot in the way ofobservances of the phases of the moon.
And so, I'm excited to have this addedin to something that I can attend.
Michael (33:54):
Mm-hmm.
. But yeah, as you can see fromthat format, it's very simple.
And again, you, if, if peoplelistening would like to attend as well,
there's no obligation to keep your.
Your camera on, there'sno obligation to speak.
You just, you can just listenin and just feel part of the,
part of the community that way.
Yucca (34:15):
Mm-hmm.
So in the mixers sometimesritual, are there discussions
or what else do the mixers.
Michael (34:26):
Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing.
Yucca (34:29):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (34:30):
Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come
and do a check in and talk about howthey're, how they're getting on that
week and if there's anything they wannadiscuss, we just open it up to that.
Depending on the size of the turn, wemay require some kind of etiquette stuff.
(34:50):
So if there are a lot of peopleand we don't want people to.
Shut it down or have spoken over.
So we'll ask people to raisetheir hands if they wanna speak.
That's, that really is only when there'sa lot of people and, and often I, I
know I'm somebody who likes to talk,so it's a, I think raising hands also
gives people who are less confident,or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just
(35:13):
not at, don't feel like interrupting.
It gives them an opportu.
To to have their say as well
and be called on mm-hmm.
Mark (35:21):
Yeah.
Yucca (35:22):
Mm.
Mark (35:23):
I think it's really good that we've implemented that.
It, it's, it helps.
Michael (35:27):
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the really cool ritualswe had recently was for like the ATO
Harvest, so that was when was that?
That was in September or October.
In September, yeah.
Yeah.
So.
We were trying, I mean, usually it's,you could do some kind of harvest related
(35:50):
and I think we've done that in the past.
But I have a book called CelebratingIrish Festivals by Ruth Marshall.
And this is my go-to bookfor, for, for ritual ideas.
And this is, and I like to.
Kind of some of the traditionalholidays and maybe just steal from them.
(36:11):
. So Michael Mass is is the holidayaround that time in Ireland?
It's a Christian holiday,but it's also it's
a
Yucca (36:20):
were older.
Michael (36:21):
yeah, yeah,
Yucca (36:22):
Christians took for the older
Michael (36:23):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
you know, it's about St.
And he's known for slayinga dragon as just as St.
George was known for slaying a dragon.
But I thought, well, let's turnthis on this head and let's
celebrate our inner dragons.
Let's bring our dragons to life.
So it was the wholeritual was about dragons.
And we actually drew Dragons, drewour inner dragons and shared them.
(36:45):
Talked about what they.
And kind of we were feeding ourinner dragon so that they could warm
us throughout the coming winter.
Yucca (36:51):
Hmm.
Michael (36:51):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (36:53):
as well as watching the home.
Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video,
Michael (36:59):
Oh yeah,
Mark (37:00):
which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme.
It's just too funny to avoid.
Michael (37:07):
That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands.
That was pretty popular.
Mark (37:12):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (37:13):
Yeah.
Track toward the ator.
Google it, and in fact, I dida, I did the hot chip challenge
as part of that ritual as
Mark (37:21):
That's right.
Yeah.
Michael (37:23):
where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera.
And.
It was it was painful, but I'msure, I don't know if it entertained
other people, but it was, it was fun
Mark (37:33):
Oh yeah.
It was fun.
Michael (37:37):
So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're
fun and they're kind of silly and goofyand but I mean, I thought at the same
time they're very meaningful becausepeople really opened up in that one
Mark (37:47):
Yeah.
Michael (37:48):
and shared some really profe profound truth.
That was one of my favorites actually,and I hope we do another, another
dragon invoking ritual in the future.
Mark (37:58):
Maybe in the spring
Michael (38:00):
yeah.
Mark (38:01):
you do it at, at both of the equinoxes.
Michael (38:04):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (38:06):
so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great.
Thank you so much for your, yourvolunteering and your effort.
What do you think about the future?
How do you, how do you seewhere this community is going
and what would you like to see?
What's, what's your perspective on that?
Michael (38:26):
Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group
I had attended A local cups meeting.
So that's the covenant ofUnitarian Universalist Pagans.
And so it was just a taro reading workshopand, you know, I was, I, I like kind
of using these kind of rituals just fortheir beauty and, but not, for not, not
(38:50):
seeing anything supernatural in them.
I was, it was amazing to, to find agroup that was interested in these
kind of things too, but withoutthe they weren't incredulous.
So I guess what I'm hoping for isthat as we, as we kind of find more
people who are, are, are alignedwith us, maybe we can have more in.
(39:11):
Experiences.
That was one of the great, thegreat highlights of, of last year
was attending the Century retreatand meeting all, all these amazing
people in real life and being ableto spend time together in real life.
And I hope that as we kind of,as the word gets out about this
group, more and more of us can meetin person or as we are able to,
Mark (39:36):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (39:38):
That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding
your, your people that we are, weare being able to get these local
groups together and then spend timeon these important days of the year.
And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan groupwas able to do that not too long ago.
And I know Mark, your local groupmeets quite regularly as well.
Mark (39:59):
We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath.
So yeah, we're gonna get together onthe 18th of December and burn a fire
in the fire pit and do a, a ritual andenjoy food and drink with one another.
And yeah, it's a, it's a really goodfeeling that that feeling of getting
together is just You can't replaceit with online connection, but online
(40:24):
connection is still really good.
So that's why, that's why we continueto do the mixers every Saturday.
And Glen Gordon has also beenorganizing a mixer on Thursday evenings.
Well evenings if you're in the Americas.
And.
Yeah, there's just, there's,there's a bunch of different
(40:44):
opportunities to plug in and it'salways great to see somebody new.
Michael (40:49):
Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if
you've been on the fence about coming toa mixer I hope that what we've described
today maybe entices you to come along.
You know that there's no expectationsand you can, you can share, you
can just sit in the backgroundand watch, or you can participate.
There's no expectations and it's just anice way to, to connect with people, so,
Yucca (41:09):
how would somebody join in?
They find the, the linkon the Facebook discord.
Michael (41:16):
that's right.
Yeah.
So I think, mark, you post itregularly on the Facebook group,
and it's also posted on the disc.
As well.
So, and it's the same time every Saturday,so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and
that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the,
Mark (41:35):
No, it's 1115 for Yucca.
Michael (41:37):
Oh, okay.
Mark (41:38):
It's 10 15 for me.
Michael (41:40):
Okay.
Okay.
Yucca (41:41):
one 15 for Eastern.
Then
Michael (41:42):
one, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Yucca (41:46):
Hmm
Mark (41:47):
And.
Michael (41:47):
and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I
think we've only missed one week,maybe in the last three years.
Mark (41:53):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I wasn't available and I couldn't findsomebody else to host or something like
that, but yeah, it's been very consistent.
And I see no reason to think itisn't gonna keep being consistent.
But yeah, we, you know,we welcome new people.
And if you're not in theAmericas, that's fine too.
We've got a couple of Dutchpeople that come in all the time.
(42:15):
There's a, an Austrian woman wholives in Helsinki who participates.
So
Yucca (42:21):
E eight nine ish kind of for Europe,
Mark (42:25):
Yeah.
Michael (42:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We've even had on the Thursdaynight mixer, we've even had
Australians join occasionally too.
So
Yucca (42:34):
That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right?
Michael (42:36):
yeah,
Yucca (42:36):
getting up in the.
Michael (42:38):
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
But I'd I'd love for some of thelisteners to come and join us on
one of the mixers and then cuzyou know, you bring new ideas.
And I we're always lookingfor new ritual ideas,
Mark (42:51):
Mm.
Michael (42:51):
That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's.
Mark (42:55):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, cuz that's, I mean,that's what we're doing, right?
We're, we're create, we're,it's a creative process for us.
We've got these sort of frameworkslike the Wheel of the Year and the,
the ritual format that I laid out.
Although people can useother ritual formats too.
(43:17):
That's fine.
But it's, it's an ongoing processof creation and of taking some old
traditions and folding them in wherethey fit but creating new stuff as well.
One of the innovations that we, thatwe've been doing for the l past year
or so is if people want to be donewith something, if they want to be
(43:40):
finished with something in their.
They can write it in the chat andthen I take the chat file and I
print it on my printer and I takeit and I burn it in my cauldron.
So it is actually being burnt physically.
But it just takes a little bit oftechnical processing before that happens.
Yucca (44:02):
Hmm.
Mark (44:03):
And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals.
And boy, if you have new ideasabout things we can do for online
rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em.
Yucca (44:18):
So thank you so much for sharing your story and your
visions or the future with us.
This has been, it's, it's really beenbeautiful to hear and to get that insight.
Thank you, Michael.
Michael (44:31):
Well, thank you for having me on.
Yucca (44:33):
Yeah.
Mark (44:34):
It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I
feel like our community is very lucky.
You've been exploring religion and andfolklore and ritual for a long time
in a lot of different frameworks andI feel really fortunate that you've
landed with us cuz I like you so.
Michael (44:52):
Okay.
Well thanks very much.
I like you too,
Mark (44:55):
Okay folks, that'll be all for this week.
And as always, we'll have anotherepisode for you next week on the
Wonder Science Based Paganism.
Have a great week.
Yucca (45:05):
Thanks everybody.
Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism.
I'm Mark, one of your hosts,
Yucca (00:37):
and I'm Yucca.
Mark (00:39):
and today we have a really exciting episode.
We have an interview with a member ofthe Atheopagan Society Council, Michael,
who is joining us today, and is gonnatell us about his journey and what this
community means to him and his vision forthe future and all kinds of cool stuff.
So welcome.
Michael (01:01):
Well, thank you very much for having me.
Mark (01:03):
I'm delighted to have you here,
Yucca (01:05):
Thanks for coming on.
Michael (01:07):
Yeah, no, I'm excited.
Yucca (01:09):
Yeah.
So why don't we start with so who are you?
Right?
What's, what's yourjourney been to get here?
Michael (01:16):
Gosh.
Well, I kind of have tostart at the very beginning.
So my name's Michael and you know, I've,I start, sometimes I go by me Hall, which
is my Irish, the Irish version of my name.
And that's something I'vebeen using more as I've been
involved in the Pagan community.
My parents are both Irish and.
(01:40):
They moved to the United Statesin their early eighties cuz my dad
got a green card working over there
Mark (01:45):
Hmm.
Michael (01:46):
and I was born in America.
And then they decided they want tomove back to Ireland then in 1991.
So already I had this kindof dissected identity.
Was I American or was I Irish?
I never really lost my American accent.
When I, when I moved to Ireland my sisterwho was born in Ireland, she actually
(02:07):
has a slight American accent just fromliving with me, . So she never people
always ask her, are you, are you American?
And she's like, I've never lived there.
So it's funny that it's kind of stuckwith her, but I moved to Ireland
and I suddenly was kind of got thisculture shock at the age of five
and moving to this new country.
And my mother has a very largefamily, so she has like, two, two
(02:29):
brothers and seven sisters, andthen I've got like 30 cousins.
So , it was a big, a bigchange from AmeriCorps.
It was just the three of us.
Moving back to Ireland and.
It was a very, you know, Ireland,you know, is, would've been
considered a very Catholic country,and it's been kind of secularizing
since the nineties up until now.
(02:50):
But back then it was still quite Catholic.
Like homosexuality was onlydecriminalized in 1992 and divorce
was only made legal in 1995.
So, I guess the first kind of senseof, of what I meant to be Irish back
then was, You know, you learned Irishin school, you learned to speak Irish
in school, and this was very it wasn'ttaught very well, I would say, and I think
(03:15):
most Irish people would agree with that.
It's kind of taught like almost likeLatin or something as a dead language
rather than as a living language.
So you're spending timelearning all this grammar.
And you don't kind of develop thatlove of it that I think you should.
I did go to like Irishsummer camp in the Gal talk.
The gal talk is the Irish speakingarea of Ireland, and I kind of became
(03:40):
aware of my Irishness, you know, justthrough being part of all this and also.
I would've introduced myself asAmerican when I was little but
people didn't really like that.
It was kind of a, likea weird thing to do.
So my mom eventually told me, maybeyou should just stop paying that.
And so throughout my I, you know, as Imentioned, it was a very Catholic country.
(04:07):
And when I was in the Gale talkin Irish summer camp one of the
kids said they were atheist.
And I was like, what does that mean?
I'm like, I don't believe in God.
And I was, and in my head I was like,I didn't know you could do that,
I didn't know that was an option.
. So I kind of thought about it for a while.
I became, we started studying theReformation in school when I was about 14.
(04:35):
And then I learned that Catholicsbelieved in transubstantiation and
nobody had really mentioned that before.
They didn't really teach thecatechism very well, I guess.
I'd done my communion and my confirmation,but nobody ever mentioned that.
We literally believed that the,the body and blood, you know,
was that the bread and water?
Oh, sorry.
The bread and wine actuallybecame literally, And the body.
(05:00):
And I thought that was a very strangething, that that was a literal thing.
It wasn't just symbolic.
And then we also studiedCalvinism and all that stuff.
And I was like, then I started toread the Bible and I was like, then
it fun, it finally just dawned onme that I didn't believe any of
this, and it was kind of liberating.
But it was kind of a way of being d.
In a very homogenous society too.
(05:22):
You could be a bit of a rebel.
So I think I was one of those annoyingteenagers who was always questioning
everybody and having, trying to havedebates with everybody about religion
and they didn't enjoy that . And so Iwent through school and I just remember
hating studying the Irish languageuntil eventually when I left school.
On the last day, I actually took all my.
(05:42):
My Irish textbooks and burntthem and I feel I . Yeah.
I mean I feel so much guilt and regretabout that and I think about that how
important it's to me now and that, thatwas a real shame that, but I didn't,
(06:05):
partially I didn't put the work in,but also I just think the structure.
Was not there.
I mean so many Irish people come out ofoutta school not really know, knowing
how to speak the language, you know,and I think it is an effective col
colonization as well, where, you know,you consider English is a useful language
and learning French or Spanish, that'sa useful thing, but there's no use for
(06:28):
Irish in people's minds, which is a,and I find that a real shame and I.
could go back and change that.
In university I studied anthropologyand history because I was
very interested in religion.
All throughout my teenage years, Iwas obsessed with learning about world
religions, you know, there was a worldreligion class in, in secondary school.
(06:48):
I didn't get into it, but Ibegged the teacher to allow me to.
Into it because I was sointerested in the topic.
And he was like, fine, fine.
And he kind of thought he'd humorme in one class one day and he
was like, well, Michael, maybeyou could talk about satanism.
That's the topic for today.
And I was like, well, let'sstart with Al Crowley.
And he was like, okay, maybehe actually knows what he is
(07:10):
talking about So, I went, I.
I went to the university sorry, nationalUniversity of Ireland, Minuth Campus.
And it's funny because thatused to be known as so it's
actually, it's two campuses.
They're St.
Patrick's college, which islike a, a seminary for priests.
(07:32):
And there's the I, which is like thesecular version, and they're both,
but they both share the same compass.
So it's funny, it used to be the,the biggest seminary in Europe.
They call it the priest factory cuzthey pumped out so many priests that
sent, sent them all over the world.
And it's when you go out andyou walk down the corridors, you
see all the graduating classes.
(07:53):
So you go back to 1950 andyou see a graduating class
of like a hundred priests.
And every year as you're goingdown the corridor, it gets
smaller and smaller and smaller.
Until I think the year I graduated, therewas like two people graduating as priests.
Yeah.
So that was, that was a, I decided tostudy history and anthropology at n Y
Minuth and one of the books that I read.
(08:16):
Was kind of a gateway into thinkingabout land and language, which are two
things that are really important tome in my, when I think about Paganism.
It's a book called wisdom Sits in Placesby Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and.
I'm just gonna read a little bithere from the book because he was an
(08:39):
anthropologist working with the Apache,the Western Apache, to try and remap
the land using the Native Apache wordsrather than the, the English words.
So trying to make a native map andworking with Apache people to find all
the true, the true names of all these.
so this is the quote, but already ononly our second day in the country
(09:02):
together a problem had problem had comeup for the third time in as many tries.
I have mispronounced the Apachename of the boggy swale before us.
And Charles, who is weary of repeatingit, has a guarded look in his eyes
after watching the name for a fourth.
I acknowledged defeat andattempted to apologize for my
(09:23):
flawed linguistic performance.
I'm sorry, Charles.
I can't get it.
I'll work on it later.
It's in the machine.
It doesn't matter.
It matters.
Charles says softly to me in English,and then turning to speak to Morley.
He addresses him in WesternApache, is what he said.
(09:43):
What he's doing isn't right.
It's not good.
He seems to be in a.
Why is he in a hurry?
It's disrespectful.
Our ancestors made this name.
They made it just as it is.
They made it for a reason.
They spoke it first a long time ago.
He's repeating thespeech of our ancestors.
(10:05):
He doesn't know that.
Tell him he's repeating thespeech of our ancestors.
And I'm gonna just there's anothersection here, a little, a few pages.
But then unexpectedly in one of thosecourteous turnabouts that Apache
people employ to assuage embarrassmentin salvage damaged feelings,
(10:27):
Charles himself comes to the rescuewith a quick corroborative grin.
He announces he is missing severalteeth and that my problem with
the place name may be attributableto his lack of dental equipment.
Sometimes he says he is hard to underst.
His nephew, Jason, recently told him that,and he knows he tends to speak softly.
(10:50):
Maybe the combination of too few teeth andtwo little volume accounts for my failing.
Short morally, on the other hand,is not so encumbered though shy.
Two, a tooth or two.
He retains the good ones for talkingand because he's not afraid to
speak up, except as everyone knowsin the presence of gar women no
one has trouble hearing what he.
(11:12):
Maybe if Morley repeated theplace name again slowly and with
ample force, I would get it right.
It's worth a try, cousin.
And then he, I'm just gonna skip forwarda bit and he successfully pronounces
the name, which translates as waterLies with mud in an open container.
Relieved and pleased.
I pronounce the name slowly.
Then I, then a bit more rapidlyand again, as it might be spoken.
(11:33):
In normal conversation, Charleslistens and nods his head in.
. Yes.
He says in Apache, that is how ourancestors made it a long time ago,
just as it is to name this place.
Mm-hmm.
So this became important to me whenthinking about the Irish language
(11:55):
because something similar happenedin Ireland in the you know, we
have all our native Irish place.
But in the 1820s the British Army'sOrdinance survey came and decided
they were gonna make these namespro pronounceable to English ears.
And so they kind of tore up thenative pronunciation and kind of
push an English pronunciation on top.
(12:16):
So you have these very strange EnglishAnglo size versions of Irish Place names
Yucca (12:21):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (12:22):
Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't
really have anything to do with the Irish.
And there are plenty of, there are so manyexamples of this and I think when you're
trying to learn about a landscape in yourrelation to a ship, to a landscape, it
is important to know the native place.
It's something that I thinkabout a lot and I try to learn.
(12:43):
One of my favorite writers is named TimRobinson, and he's well he died in 2020.
But I had the opportunity to meet him in2009 and he was an English cartographer.
But he moved to the west of Ireland,to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara.
So he kind of movedbetween those two places.
He lived there for more than 30 years,and what he actually did was he went out
(13:06):
and mapped the landscape and talked tolocal people, and he was able to find
some of the place names that had beenlost over the years that weren't on the
official maps, and he was able to helprecreate a Gaelic map of those areas.
I think that's a really kind ofreligious or spiritual activity to
(13:26):
go out onto the land and walk it.
And to name it and to name it correctly.
And I think that's what I thinkmy pagan path is in a way.
It's to go and walk the landand learn it, what to call it.
Cause I think language is the mostimportant tool we have as pagans.
Mark (13:49):
Hmm.
Michael (13:51):
So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff.
I've always been interested in folk.
It was actually funny.
There was, it started with a videogame one of the legend of Zelda
video games called Major's Mask
Mark (14:03):
Hmm.
Yucca (14:03):
Yep.
Michael (14:04):
in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival
and they dis they discuss thethe history of the festival.
Anna was just like, wow, I didn't,I ended up making masks with my
sister and we kind of pretended to.
A little mask festival of our own
Yucca (14:22):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (14:22):
that you're, you're familiar with that?
Yucca?
Yucca (14:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I played a lot of it.
Michael (14:29):
Yeah.
So, but I guess I really started tothink about folklore when when I watched
the Wickerman as um, as a teenager.
I was probably at 16 when I watched it,and it kind of opened my eyes completely.
And we've talked a lotabout this in the group.
And I.
It's watched as a horrormovie in a way, but
(14:51):
I think I really got into the, thepaganism idea of, of paganism as a
teenager because of watching the Wickmanand just the symbolism and the pageantry.
And I also just like the idea.
These island people turning on thestate in the form of, of the policeman.
So that's kind of been something I'vethat I've really enjoyed over the years,
(15:12):
watching that every every May as part ofmy, my, my annual ritual so, you know,
after university, I, I moved to SouthKorea to teach English, and, but at the
same time I was quite into Buddhism.
I had been practicing some Zen Buddhismfrom about the age of 18, and, but
(15:34):
not like, more as just a practicerather than believing in any of it.
Not believing in reincarnationor anything like that.
I just found the ritualof it very beautiful.
And I ended up going and doing a templestay in a, in a place at, at a temple.
Up in the mountains and it wasvery beautiful and really amazing.
(15:58):
You know, something you'd see in amovie because the monk, the head monk
actually brought us out into a bamboogrove and we sat there meditating
just with all surrounded by bamboo.
And it was waving in the wind andit felt like a correction, tiger
Hidden dragon or something like that.
And one of the powerful eventsthat happened on that trip.
(16:19):
Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where weate in in the style of a Buddhist monk.
And the idea is that you donot leave any food behind.
After you're, after you're finishedeating, you've, you eat all the food,
and then when you wash the bowls andthey kind of put the communal water back
into the, the, the waste bowl, thereshould be no no bit of food, nothing.
(16:43):
It should just be clean water.
That comes out of, after everybodyfinishes washing all their bowls.
So we followed all the steps todo that and, you know, some people
really, really weren't into it.
They didn't wanna do the workof, of being extremely thorough.
And there were a few rice piecesof rice in the water at the end and
(17:05):
the head monk said to us oh, thatwill now get, you're, you're gonna
cause pain to the hungry to ghost.
Because the hungry goats ghosts haveholes in their throats, and when
we pour the water outside for thehungry ghosts, the rice particles
are gonna get stuck in their throats.
And a lot of people were like, what?
(17:26):
What are you talking about
Mark (17:27):
Hmm.
Michael (17:28):
But I thought that was beautiful because it
doesn't, not, you don't have to.
It's a story that has a purpose, andthat's why, you know, It made me think
about the superstitions that we have.
And I don't know if I like superstitionlike these, calling it that.
Cause I think a lot of thesethings have purpose and you have to
(17:50):
look for the purpose behind them.
And the purpose of that story of the honkygo story, maybe for him it is about not
causing harm to these, these spirits,but it's also about not wasting food.
And I think it, it has morepower and more meaning.
And you remember.
(18:10):
More thoroughly when you have a storylike that to back up this, this practice.
So I think it kind of made me rethink alot about the kind of folkloric things
that I, in my, in the Irish traditionand that, you know, I think about
things like fairy forts, which are, youknow, the, these are the archeological
(18:32):
sites that you find around Ireland.
Like, I think there's like60,000 left around the country.
These, these circular.
Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw,or saw that you find all over the country
and people don't disturb them becausethey're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck.
The, if you, if you disturb the,the fair fort the ferry's gonna come
(18:52):
after you , or if you could, or ifyou cut down a tree, a lone tree.
Lone trees that grow in the middle offields that don't have a, a woodland
beside them, just singular trees.
These are known as fairy trees andit's bad luck to cut them down.
But I feel like these folk beliefs helppreserve the past as well, because, you
know, farmers who don't have this belief,they don't have any problem tearing
(19:16):
down fray, forts and that kind of thing.
They just see it as a, something in theway of them farming, especially in the
kind of age of industrial agriculture.
Yeah.
So it just made, that was when Istarted to think about how important
it is to keep folk belief alive.
And I've really, and I really started tostudy Irish folk belief after that point.
(19:40):
And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned.
I met my wife there, she's from Iowaand she was also teaching in, in South
Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that.
And we lived there for a couple of years,and I might come back to that later.
(20:00):
But fast forwarding, we movedto Iowa then in 2013, and I'm
teaching a course in Irish.
At a local community college,but I always start with this
poem by Shama Heini Boland.
And I just wanted to readtwo extracts from it.
(20:21):
So the first stands out is wehave no prairies to slice a
big sun at evening everywhere.
The eye concedes to encroaching.
And then moving downwards.
Our pioneers keep strikinginwards and downwards.
(20:42):
Every layer they strip, they, everylayer they strip seems camped on before.
So I, I started with thatinitially, kind of trying to, as,
it was almost like a gateway formy students to kind of look at.
Look at Iowa with its historic prairies,which don't really exist anymore.
It's all farmland.
(21:03):
There's very little prairie land left.
I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie.
But that idea, that idea of ourpioneers strike downwards, and I've
been thinking about that a lot as well,that that's kind of a, a colonial look
at the land because this land, theAmerican land has is just as camped.
(21:27):
As Ireland, and I've been kind ofexperiencing that more and more.
I have a friend who's an archeologisthere and just hearing them talk about
the kinds of fines that they have.
You know, we lived in a town wherethere was a Native American fishing
weir was a couple of hundred years old.
It you could kind of see the remains, butit mostly washed away by the time we had.
(21:49):
But I did see an old postcardof it from the seventies, and
you could see it very clearly.
And so just make, and then we alwaysit's become a ritual every every autumn,
we go up to northeast Iowa to these,to these effigy mounds, which are some
Native American mounds up there ona bluff, just overlooking the miss.
Mark (22:09):
Hmm.
Michael (22:09):
And that's really amazing to look at that and
experience and experience that.
And you know, I'd love to go back,unfortunately, Shamus, he died more
than 10 years ago now, but I'd loveto go back and ask him if he would
consider rewriting that line, you know,because this land is just as a count on
Yucca (22:30):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (22:31):
and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means.
As an Irish person living in America,
Yucca (22:38):
Mm.
Michael (22:38):
Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism,
Mark (22:43):
Hmm.
Michael (22:46):
Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became
white as well and had the samecolonial attitudes as everybody.
And I'm trying to kind of, but youknow, there's, there's, there's kind
of stories of reciprocation as well.
Where during the famine, the Irishfamine the, I think, I believe
(23:09):
it was the Chota Nation sentEmin relief to the AR to Ireland.
Even though they didn't have muchthemselves, they still saw this.
People in need across the waterand they sent money to help.
And, you know, there's that connectionbetween the Chta nation and the
Irish has continued to this day.
But I am just trying to figure outwhat it means to be an Irish person
(23:34):
and a pagan living in this country.
And that's kind of whereI, where I am right now.
But to get back to how I got intoEthiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier
that I was really into the Wickermanand I found this group called Folk
folk Horror Revival on Facebook.
And somebody one day mentioned thatthere was this group called Atheopagan.
(23:59):
And so I decided to join and Ifound a lot of like-minded people.
And I've been kind of involvedin the community for, for,
I think that was maybe 2018.
Mark (24:08):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (24:09):
And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe
on a bigger, I've been much moreinvolved since Covid started and we
started doing our Saturday mixers.
And I think I've made maybe 90% of those
Mark (24:25):
something
Michael (24:25):
and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last
three years and it's just been.
It's a really amazing, it's one ofthe highlights of my week to spend
time with with other people inthat, in that hour and 45 minutes
that we spend every Saturday.
Mark (24:39):
Mm.
Michael (24:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (24:41):
Yeah, I, I really agree with you.
That's, I, it's a highlightof my week as well.
Such warm, thoughtful peopleand so diverse and living
in so many different places.
It's yeah, it's just a really good thingto do on a Saturday morning for me.
And.
We'll probably get into this morea little bit later, but the idea of
(25:04):
creating human connection and communitybuilding I know is really important to
you and it's really important to me too.
I think there have been other sortof naturalistic, pagan traditions
that have been created by people,but they just kind of plunked them
on the internet and let them sit.
And to me it's.
That would be fine if I werejust gonna do this by myself.
(25:26):
But when other people started saying,I like this, I want to do this too.
To me that meant, well thenwe should all do it together.
Right?
Let's, let's build a community andsupport one another in doing this.
And so the Saturday mixers, whenwe, when Covid started, I think.
I mean, to be honest, COVID did some greatthings for the Ethiopia, pagan community.
Yucca (25:49):
Yeah.
Mark (25:50):
yeah.
Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's
Yucca (25:53):
Well that's the silver linings, right?
That's one of the thingswe, you know, life goes on.
We have to find the, the, thebenefits and the good things,
even in the challenging times.
Mark (26:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michael (26:10):
yeah.
I think.
I'm just thinking back to when we started.
So it's kind of, we have maybesix or seven regulars who
come to every meeting maybe.
And then we have other people whojoin now and then, but I'm just trying
to think back to the first meeting.
I think we, that's when the ideaof doing virtual ritual began
(26:30):
as well in that first meeting.
And we were trying tofigure out how to do.
Yucca (26:33):
Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was
it as a response to Covid?
Mark (26:41):
You know, honestly, I don't remember.
I think it must have been in responseto Covid because everybody was shut
in and, you know, everybody waskind of starving for human contact.
Michael (26:54):
I think the first one may have been March or April.
2020,
Yucca (27:00):
Okay, so right there at the.
Michael (27:02):
Yeah, right at the beginning.
Yeah.
And I think, I remember in the firstmeeting we were talking about ritual
ideas and I think the first suggestionI came up with was like I'd love to
somebody do like a, describe whatan atheopagan temple might look.
Mark (27:23):
Oh yeah.
Michael (27:24):
Yeah.
And I left, and I think you were recordingthe meetings at that time, but we don't
record 'em anymore, just so people canfeel free to be themselves and not have
a recorded recording of themselves outthere, . But I know that, I think James
who you interviewed recently he, hewas listening to that one, I believe,
and he came the next week and actuallyhad prepared a guided meditation.
(27:45):
Of what a pagan templewould be like to him.
And it was a walk through nature.
I think that was the first, ourfirst online ritual together.
Mark (27:55):
Yeah, I remember that now.
Yeah, and it's been, it's really beena journey trying to figure out how,
how can you do these ritual thingsover a, a video conferencing platform.
In a way that makes everybody feellike they're participating and engaged.
Right.
So that there's a, atransformation of consciousness.
(28:17):
But I think we've donepretty well, to be honest.
I mean, some of the rituals that we'vedone have been really quite moving.
Michael (28:25):
Yeah.
And I think the ritual framework thatyou've worked at translates very well to.
A Zoom conference as well.
I dunno if maybe, if he wantsto describe that, what the usual
atheopagan ritual would look like.
Mark (28:37):
Sure.
We've, we've talked about this before.
The, the, the ritual structure that Iproposed in my book is basically a, a
five step process where the first isarrival, which is sort of, Transitioning
into the ritual state of mind fromthe ordinary state of mind, and then
(29:00):
the invocation of qualities that area part that we'd like to be a part of
the ritual with us, which is sort ofthe equivalent in Wicca or other pagan
traditions of invoking spirits or gods orwhat have you, ancestors, what have you.
And then the main working of theritual, which varies depending on
(29:22):
what the purpose of the ritual is.
But it can be, well, we've donelots of different kinds of things.
We've braided ribbons and then tied,not tied magical knots in them.
We've made siles, we've we've donejust lots of different kinds of things.
And then gratitudeexpressions of gratitude.
The things that we're grateful for.
(29:44):
And then finally, benediction,which is sort of the closing of the
ritual at a declaration that we'removing back into ordinary time.
Yucca (29:51):
So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom
meeting In a digital format?
Mark (30:01):
Michael, you want to take that one or should I?
Michael (30:03):
So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have
a ritual more people attend that andso we might have 12 people there and
often
Yucca (30:14):
cameras on.
Michael (30:15):
Camera's on.
Well, it's optional.
Yeah.
If you don't feel comfortable havingyour camera on, that's completely
fine and you don't even have to speak.
We do encourage people just toyou know, leave a message in the
chat so you can just listen in.
You can engage as muchor as little as you want.
And you, you, so.
(30:35):
We have all the people on in theconference, and maybe we'll try and get
some more of the senses involved as well.
So sometimes we'll like candlesand everybody will have a
candle in front of them.
I do know for for someof our sound rituals.
Mark, you've used two cameraswhere you, you aim one camera at
maybe a focus, like what's oneof the examples of that that you.
Mark (30:55):
Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu.
So both the Halls ritual and the Yuleritual where I would create a focus
or alter setup with thematic andsymbolic things relating to the season.
and then I would point, I wouldlog into Zoom with my phone
and point my phone at that.
(31:18):
And then, and then I'd log in separatelyon my laptop for myself as a person,
and then I could spotlight the focusso that it's kind of the centerpiece
of what everybody experiences ontheir screen and sets the atmosphere.
Michael (31:37):
Yeah.
So just a virtual focus thateverybody can, everybody
can virtually gather around.
Yucca (31:42):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (31:43):
Yeah.
And I think we've also used a Pinterestboard in the past as well for people.
I think it was at Sound again,we had that Pinterest board where
people could put up notes about.
Their ancestors or loved ones thatthey were That's correct, isn't it?
Mark (31:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or pictures of people thathad passed recently or.
Yucca (32:01):
mm.
Michael (32:01):
yeah.
So yeah, there's a lot of digitalspace that you can use for this ritual.
We also try not to involvetoo many props as well.
Because we wanna make it as easy aspossible for people of all abilities.
And just if you don't have the spacefor something, for a large proper if
you don't wanna make a lot of noise,you know, we're not gonna have you
(32:22):
using chimes or things like that.
So we try and make it as easy as possible.
Sometimes we do invite you to bring somefood to eat as well, because, you know,
a lot of these are feasting rituals.
So we maybe, if you feelcomfortable bringing some
refreshments, you might want to do.
And just have a friendlymeal with people online.
For example, we're actually gonna startdoing I'm gonna be leading full Moon
(32:44):
meals every month on the, on the, sothe first one's gonna be December 7th.
And I'll post, post about that onDiscord, and I think Mark will post
about that in the Facebook group.
Yeah.
And so the idea is everybody just comes.
Joins the Zoom meeting andeverybody should have their meal.
(33:05):
Whether you're, whether that'slunch or if you're in a different
time zone, maybe there'll bedinner or maybe it's just a snack.
And then we'll spend a minute justthinking about the providence of the
food and then we'll eat us and maybepeople can talk about the food that
they're eating and what it means to.
(33:25):
And I'm hoping to make that amonthly event that we meet every
full moon to share a meal together
Mark (33:33):
That
sounds.
I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over howlittle I pay attention to the full moon.
I'm, I'm always, I'm always awareof what phase the moon is in, but
I, I don't do a lot in the way ofobservances of the phases of the moon.
And so, I'm excited to have this addedin to something that I can attend.
Michael (33:54):
Mm-hmm.
. But yeah, as you can see fromthat format, it's very simple.
And again, you, if, if peoplelistening would like to attend as well,
there's no obligation to keep your.
Your camera on, there'sno obligation to speak.
You just, you can just listenin and just feel part of the,
part of the community that way.
Yucca (34:15):
Mm-hmm.
So in the mixers sometimesritual, are there discussions
or what else do the mixers.
Michael (34:26):
Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing.
Yucca (34:29):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (34:30):
Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come
and do a check in and talk about howthey're, how they're getting on that
week and if there's anything they wannadiscuss, we just open it up to that.
Depending on the size of the turn, wemay require some kind of etiquette stuff.
(34:50):
So if there are a lot of peopleand we don't want people to.
Shut it down or have spoken over.
So we'll ask people to raisetheir hands if they wanna speak.
That's, that really is only when there'sa lot of people and, and often I, I
know I'm somebody who likes to talk,so it's a, I think raising hands also
gives people who are less confident,or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just
(35:13):
not at, don't feel like interrupting.
It gives them an opportu.
To to have their say as well
and be called on mm-hmm.
Mark (35:21):
Yeah.
Yucca (35:22):
Mm.
Mark (35:23):
I think it's really good that we've implemented that.
It, it's, it helps.
Michael (35:27):
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the really cool ritualswe had recently was for like the ATO
Harvest, so that was when was that?
That was in September or October.
In September, yeah.
Yeah.
So.
We were trying, I mean, usually it's,you could do some kind of harvest related
(35:50):
and I think we've done that in the past.
But I have a book called CelebratingIrish Festivals by Ruth Marshall.
And this is my go-to bookfor, for, for ritual ideas.
And this is, and I like to.
Kind of some of the traditionalholidays and maybe just steal from them.
(36:11):
. So Michael Mass is is the holidayaround that time in Ireland?
It's a Christian holiday,but it's also it's
a
Yucca (36:20):
were older.
Michael (36:21):
yeah, yeah,
Yucca (36:22):
Christians took for the older
Michael (36:23):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
you know, it's about St.
And he's known for slayinga dragon as just as St.
George was known for slaying a dragon.
But I thought, well, let's turnthis on this head and let's
celebrate our inner dragons.
Let's bring our dragons to life.
So it was the wholeritual was about dragons.
And we actually drew Dragons, drewour inner dragons and shared them.
(36:45):
Talked about what they.
And kind of we were feeding ourinner dragon so that they could warm
us throughout the coming winter.
Yucca (36:51):
Hmm.
Michael (36:51):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (36:53):
as well as watching the home.
Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video,
Michael (36:59):
Oh yeah,
Mark (37:00):
which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme.
It's just too funny to avoid.
Michael (37:07):
That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands.
That was pretty popular.
Mark (37:12):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (37:13):
Yeah.
Track toward the ator.
Google it, and in fact, I dida, I did the hot chip challenge
as part of that ritual as
Mark (37:21):
That's right.
Yeah.
Michael (37:23):
where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera.
And.
It was it was painful, but I'msure, I don't know if it entertained
other people, but it was, it was fun
Mark (37:33):
Oh yeah.
It was fun.
Michael (37:37):
So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're
fun and they're kind of silly and goofyand but I mean, I thought at the same
time they're very meaningful becausepeople really opened up in that one
Mark (37:47):
Yeah.
Michael (37:48):
and shared some really profe profound truth.
That was one of my favorites actually,and I hope we do another, another
dragon invoking ritual in the future.
Mark (37:58):
Maybe in the spring
Michael (38:00):
yeah.
Mark (38:01):
you do it at, at both of the equinoxes.
Michael (38:04):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (38:06):
so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great.
Thank you so much for your, yourvolunteering and your effort.
What do you think about the future?
How do you, how do you seewhere this community is going
and what would you like to see?
What's, what's your perspective on that?
Michael (38:26):
Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group
I had attended A local cups meeting.
So that's the covenant ofUnitarian Universalist Pagans.
And so it was just a taro reading workshopand, you know, I was, I, I like kind
of using these kind of rituals just fortheir beauty and, but not, for not, not
(38:50):
seeing anything supernatural in them.
I was, it was amazing to, to find agroup that was interested in these
kind of things too, but withoutthe they weren't incredulous.
So I guess what I'm hoping for isthat as we, as we kind of find more
people who are, are, are alignedwith us, maybe we can have more in.
(39:11):
Experiences.
That was one of the great, thegreat highlights of, of last year
was attending the Century retreatand meeting all, all these amazing
people in real life and being ableto spend time together in real life.
And I hope that as we kind of,as the word gets out about this
group, more and more of us can meetin person or as we are able to,
Mark (39:36):
Mm-hmm.
Michael (39:38):
That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding
your, your people that we are, weare being able to get these local
groups together and then spend timeon these important days of the year.
And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan groupwas able to do that not too long ago.
And I know Mark, your local groupmeets quite regularly as well.
Mark (39:59):
We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath.
So yeah, we're gonna get together onthe 18th of December and burn a fire
in the fire pit and do a, a ritual andenjoy food and drink with one another.
And yeah, it's a, it's a really goodfeeling that that feeling of getting
together is just You can't replaceit with online connection, but online
(40:24):
connection is still really good.
So that's why, that's why we continueto do the mixers every Saturday.
And Glen Gordon has also beenorganizing a mixer on Thursday evenings.
Well evenings if you're in the Americas.
And.
Yeah, there's just, there's,there's a bunch of different
(40:44):
opportunities to plug in and it'salways great to see somebody new.
Michael (40:49):
Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if
you've been on the fence about coming toa mixer I hope that what we've described
today maybe entices you to come along.
You know that there's no expectationsand you can, you can share, you
can just sit in the backgroundand watch, or you can participate.
There's no expectations and it's just anice way to, to connect with people, so,
Yucca (41:09):
how would somebody join in?
They find the, the linkon the Facebook discord.
Michael (41:16):
that's right.
Yeah.
So I think, mark, you post itregularly on the Facebook group,
and it's also posted on the disc.
As well.
So, and it's the same time every Saturday,so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and
that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the,
Mark (41:35):
No, it's 1115 for Yucca.
Michael (41:37):
Oh, okay.
Mark (41:38):
It's 10 15 for me.
Michael (41:40):
Okay.
Okay.
Yucca (41:41):
one 15 for Eastern.
Then
Michael (41:42):
one, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Yucca (41:46):
Hmm
Mark (41:47):
And.
Michael (41:47):
and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I
think we've only missed one week,maybe in the last three years.
Mark (41:53):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I wasn't available and I couldn't findsomebody else to host or something like
that, but yeah, it's been very consistent.
And I see no reason to think itisn't gonna keep being consistent.
But yeah, we, you know,we welcome new people.
And if you're not in theAmericas, that's fine too.
We've got a couple of Dutchpeople that come in all the time.
(42:15):
There's a, an Austrian woman wholives in Helsinki who participates.
So
Yucca (42:21):
E eight nine ish kind of for Europe,
Mark (42:25):
Yeah.
Michael (42:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We've even had on the Thursdaynight mixer, we've even had
Australians join occasionally too.
So
Yucca (42:34):
That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right?
Michael (42:36):
yeah,
Yucca (42:36):
getting up in the.
Michael (42:38):
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
But I'd I'd love for some of thelisteners to come and join us on
one of the mixers and then cuzyou know, you bring new ideas.
And I we're always lookingfor new ritual ideas,
Mark (42:51):
Mm.
Michael (42:51):
That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's.
Mark (42:55):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, cuz that's, I mean,that's what we're doing, right?
We're, we're create, we're,it's a creative process for us.
We've got these sort of frameworkslike the Wheel of the Year and the,
the ritual format that I laid out.
Although people can useother ritual formats too.
(43:17):
That's fine.
But it's, it's an ongoing processof creation and of taking some old
traditions and folding them in wherethey fit but creating new stuff as well.
One of the innovations that we, thatwe've been doing for the l past year
or so is if people want to be donewith something, if they want to be
(43:40):
finished with something in their.
They can write it in the chat andthen I take the chat file and I
print it on my printer and I takeit and I burn it in my cauldron.
So it is actually being burnt physically.
But it just takes a little bit oftechnical processing before that happens.
Yucca (44:02):
Hmm.
Mark (44:03):
And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals.
And boy, if you have new ideasabout things we can do for online
rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em.
Yucca (44:18):
So thank you so much for sharing your story and your
visions or the future with us.
This has been, it's, it's really beenbeautiful to hear and to get that insight.
Thank you, Michael.
Michael (44:31):
Well, thank you for having me on.
Yucca (44:33):
Yeah.
Mark (44:34):
It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I
feel like our community is very lucky.
You've been exploring religion and andfolklore and ritual for a long time
in a lot of different frameworks andI feel really fortunate that you've
landed with us cuz I like you so.
Michael (44:52):
Okay.
Well thanks very much.
I like you too,
Mark (44:55):
Okay folks, that'll be all for this week.
And as always, we'll have anotherepisode for you next week on the
Wonder Science Based Paganism.
Have a great week.
Yucca (45:05):
Thanks everybody.
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