May 17, 2022 • 28 mins
Join Jade & Erin in the series premiere episode of Uncovering Belonging, launched on the 2022 International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia. Featuring our guest, Deepak Kashyap (he/him), as he shares his experiences in making the shift from a Social Justice Warrior to a Social Justice Worker, the Canadian immigration system, belongingness, intersectionality, and wellness at work and beyond.
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Deepak (he/him) (00:00):
When I came to Canada, I realized that and this has been said about the Canadian
immigration system, that it's very justbut it's not very fair.
Jade (they/them) (00:10):
I'm Jade Pichette, they/them.
Erin (she/her) (00:12):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns she and her.
Jade (they/them) (00:16):
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
Erin (she/her) (00:18):
A podcast that explores the professional and personal stories of unique voices
of what it means to belong.
Jade (they/them) (00:23):
And the journey to finding our authentic self.
So I'm really excited, Erin,
today to be talking to Deepak Kashyap.
I've met him quite a few times.
I know you haven't yet.So welcome, Deepak.
Deepak (he/him):Thank you very much. It means a lot to me.
Deepak Kashyap, he/him,
is a member of the Ontario Associationof Mental Health Practitioners
(00:47):
and the Canadian Counselingand Psychotherapy Association.
He provides emotional and mental health
services in personas well as online for over ten years.
He holds a master's degreein the Psychology of Education
from the University of Bristol, U.K.,has been formally trained
in advanced programs in REBT and CBT
from the Albert Ellis Institutein New York and attended the MBCT
(01:11):
Summer School Program at the OxfordMindfulness Center at the University
of Oxford.
Deepak's experience lies in developingand delivering programs for organizational
mental health initiatives, anti-racismand anti-oppression frameworks, diversity,
inclusion, training and LGBTQ2Splus leadership and rights activism.
He has developed and deliveredprograms like Employee Emotional First
(01:34):
Aid, Productivity and Mental HealthDuring the Pandemic, Working from Home:
The New Normal, Unconscious Bias, Safeand Respectful Work Environment.
Psychological Safety at Work,Effective versus Performative Allyship,
Making Workplaces
More Welcoming of the Queer EmployeesBeyond Just the Pride Month,
Emotional Skills for Feminism,
Distinctionsbetween Social Justice Warriors
(01:56):
and Workers, Squaring Up Meritocracyand Privilege Myths.
He has conductedworkshops in India, Dubai,
the United States, UK, Europe and Canada.
He is a published columnist.
He has appeared on various nationaland international news channels,
talk shows,and this is something that I am learning
also, is that Deepak is India's firstopenly gay television co-host.
(02:20):
Deepak, happyto have you as a guest on our podcast.
Erin (she/her) (02:24):
I don't know if this is true for you, but I will set in a little bit of discomfort
as someone else readsmy bio and feel like,
wow, that's really a lot of things.
We don't need to spend time on myself,but I'm here to give gratitude
for all of the amazing workthat you've done.
Deepak (he/him) (02:41):
Exactly the same, exactly the way.
I was just like, Oh, my God,I'm going to apologize to Jade later
and tell them that listen, next timeI'll send you an abbreviated one.
So yeah, thank you very much.
Jade (they/them) (02:56):
I just think all of those pieces of yourself are important.
And as somebody with a background inSocial Work who's working in this space,
I know how often those of uswho are doing that kind of Social Work
or Psychology,Counseling Support often are focused
so much on others that it's hardsometimes to focus on ourselves.
(03:18):
But we're all about you today.
And I think that every piece of thatis important.
Deepak (he/him) (03:25):
That it gives me such an ego boost.
Jade (they/them) (03:28):
We all need those each give us once in a while.
I think, especially those of uswho do community work, we deserve it
once in a while.
So, Erin,do you want to get to know Deepak a bit
more in terms of beyond the on the bio?
Erin (she/her) (03:40):
Absolutely.
And I know that our listenerswill want to as well.
So how did you get to this work?
How did you end up in the Diversityand Inclusion space?
I mean, I chose Psychologybecause I absolutely love Psychology.
And at the time we're talking 15,20 years ago when Diversity and Inclusion
wasn't the hot topic, as the history oftopics goes, it's literally 5 minutes old.
(04:02):
It's still hot.Everyone wants a piece of it.
So I was born in India,my father was born in India,
but his father was born in Pakistanduring the partition of the country.
His father had moved here.
I was raised in India as the English
speaking elite of the country,as the upper caste, upper class.
But we were still refugees from Pakistan.
It was a very interesting experience.
(04:23):
We were upper caste but economically poorbecause we were refugees
when I was growing up,I think because of who we were,
our education and things like that,we quickly rose through the social ranks.
We were already the upper,and I know it's a horrible thing
to even use that word "upper caste"and "lower caste".
(04:44):
But right now I'm talking aboutwhat is not what I would like it to be.
So that's importantas a context to remember.
So it was easier for us to sort of,you know, get education and get the money
and get the connectionsand whatnot and rise
up to the level of truly calling onsounds middle class Indians.
So while I was in Indiaand before I was sent to England
(05:05):
to study and my parents then could afford
to send me to England to study,I had so much privilege.
The moment I landed in England,I was just another brown immigrant.
Jade (they/them) (05:18):
Hi, everyone, this is Jade,
and I'm recording this after the factto provide listeners with a content note.
Deepak is going to share a story
which includes a reference to humantrafficking and sex trafficking.
So if you need to, you may want to pressthe skip forward button
to go about a minute or two forward.
Deepeak (he/him) (05:39):
So of course, I went through the sophomore year of angry
college student who's angry at everythingand everything is racist.
And everyone's homophobicand everyone's "this"phobic.
And then I had a teacher from Ghana.
She had worked on salvaging,saving literally
saving girls from human trafficking.
And I was this angry sophomore person.
(06:02):
So once I kind of had it out with myteacher and I said, Why are you not angry?
You talk about injustice with this -
Um - the word that I use Jade inErin was "academic sterility".
And I was so proud of my vocabularybecause I was learning this vocabulary
to name and shame.
And then I realized quicklythat I'm yelling at a Black woman
(06:23):
in a class and I'm like, Oh,my God, you need to,
like, you know, calm the fuck down a little,a little, blah, blah, blah.
And then I go up to herand she says, "Deepak, the only difference
between you and I atthis moment is you look at inequalities
and discriminationas a result of human evilness.
I look at them as a result of humanweakness."
Erin (she/her) (06:45):
Wow. Deepak (he/him)
That was the start of the changethat a woman who was sex
trafficked herself,who saved herself into becoming
literally the savior for others, for many,many others wasn't angry.
And I was this little privileged boyfrom India.
And I was carrying this angerfrom everyone around me thinking that
(07:09):
that's what gives me identityand that's what gives me validation.
So that sort of made me realize that
I need to make the shiftfrom being a warrior to a worker.
And she kept educating me about this.
And she would say, you have to realizethat the moment you are in the warrior
mentality, you have to choose sidesand you have to look at the other side
as a monolith to be attacked,not to be understood.
(07:32):
The moment we are in war mentality.
The other is a monolithic tribeand all have to be attacked.
Women, children, old alike.
But a worker has to passionately workwith everybody.
The worker doesn't have to choose sides.
It has to be on the side of valuesand not identities.
If you're applying justice, that appliesto everyone. That particular teacher
(07:55):
of mine really changed my attitudestowards it. Erin (she/her): Wow.
Deepak (he/him) (07:59):
And then the second step came into my journey when I came to Canada.
And this has been said about the Canadianimmigration system that it's very just
but it's not very fair.
Why is it just? Because you can'tbribe yourself into Canada.
You have to fulfill some of the thingsand if you fulfill, regardless
of where you are from,you will make it to Canada.
So, it's just that way.
But Canada goes around the worldcollecting the cream of the crop.
(08:22):
We asked for a Master's degree.
We ask for certainlevel of English proficiency.
We ask for a certain amount in your bank.
We ask for this, that and the other.
So we are going around not just picking upanyone other than the refugee things
that we have going on,which I applaud with all of my heart.
We're not just inviting anyone.
We are inviting the cream of the cropand then the moment they land in Canada,
(08:44):
we like, Oops, sorry,you can only work at Tim Hortons
and there's nothing wrong
with working at Tim Horton's,but that's not what these people
have proved their skills for.
So that's what happened to me.
Yes, there are unions and yes,there are quality assurance things
that every country needs to have,but these quality assurances could quickly
turn into entry barriersfor people who are very qualified
(09:07):
but are not allowed to work.
I've sat in one too many
Ubers being driven by doctorsfrom Iran, from Syria, from India.
So that just made me realize that, yes,you've let me in and I'm grateful,
but, you've taken my professional identityaway from me
and there is no recourse to it.
And no one tells you thiswhen you're immigrating to Canada
(09:28):
and that's what that me like,hey, I need to do something.
So it's like I've been doing Diversityand Inclusion work in India.
I'm going to continue.
So I set up my own organizationcalled Lotus Mindfulness Center
where we work on Wellness,we work on Psychological Safety
in workplaces, and we work on Diversityand Inclusion and Belongingness.
Yes, sorry, that was a long story,but I kind of needed to get through it
(09:51):
for you to understand why I'm sopassionate about wellness and diversity.
Erin (she/her) (09:56):
There's no need to apologize.
I'm taking copious amounts of notesbecause I love all of these
different piecesthat you're sharing with us.
And yes, D&I is 5 minutes old,and the work that people have been
doing for years definitely constitutesthe work that we do now in this space.
It's just been sort of categorized in away to allow organizations to check a box
(10:18):
to say that we are doing these thingsto make people feel included at work.
But do they? Do they truly findand feel that sense of belonging?
And I wondernow, at this stage in your career,
why does this workmake you feel that sense of belonging?
Deepeak (he/him) (10:34):
Because belongingness is a two way street.
You can find belonging from outside
but a sense of belongingcan also be generated from within.
Like, for example, I look the way I do.
I've got a weird accent.I switch accents every now and then.
When I go to India, or hereI've lived in four different countries.
There are times when I ask,Where do I belong?
I know where I was born.
(10:55):
I speak four languages,but where do I belong?
I had to start belonging to me first.Belongingness
is another name for attachmentplus connection.
I'm connected to you,but I also feel care.
So if I start feeling the connectionwith myself and give up this idea
(11:15):
that I have to prove myself to somebody.This is who
I am in my unique colours.
Erin (she/her) (11:22):
Absolutely.
And I think there's this fascinatingcomponent to the work that we do in terms
of our own unique identitiesand this need to fit in
that I need to be like othersto feel a sense of belonging.
But as you unpack, it is absolutely notthat it's our unique sense of
how do we have this attachmentto something,
(11:44):
but also make that connection,knowing that we can exist
within differencesand celebrate those differences.
So I'll turn it over to Jadeto take us a little bit down that pathway.
Jade (they/them) (11:57):
This discussion is making me think a lot about chosen family, and I think
this is something that a lot of workplacesstruggle with understanding
is that for equity-deserving groups,those people who we build
attachment and connectionand care with may not be who
we are biologically or legally related toin the same ways.
(12:19):
And that has a big impact on our wellnessat work.
That has a big impacton how we see ourselves
and in the supports that we need.
So, Deepak,what are some of the barriers that you see
in terms of building that wellness?
Deeoeak (he/him) (12:35):
I think you said something really important about choosing family.
The word choicemeans that you have to act to choose.
Jade (they/them) (12:43):
Right.
Deepak (he/him) (12:44):
The choice has to be made for belonging.
To venture outand take dangerous risks of vulnerability.
Jade (they/them) (12:51):
Yes. Deepak (he/him)
Neither is heart guaranteed,nor is safety guaranteed.
And that's how I'm going to sort ofcome to the barriers.
You will face discomfort on a day to daybasis.
When you go out, there will be peoplewho probably don't understand pronouns.
There are people who do not understandor believe in intersectionality.
There are people who thinkthat you are probably
(13:14):
overstating the harm and hurtthat's been done to you.
Or you're being dramatic.
All of these are discomforting,distressing things,
but they are not dangerous.
The moment we conflate dangerand discomfort,
then we're ensuring safetyonly for ourselves.
So while it is super importantto make safe
(13:34):
spaces, it's also super importantto make brave spaces.
We need to have both.
A lot of the times
people dismiss the safety of it,and I don't stand behind that idea.
I'm not coming here with a"but" I'm coming here with an "and" safe
and brave,
because if we're going to chooseto be leaders,
we will have to expect these bumps tocome our way and they can get very tiring.
(13:59):
Yeah, I hear a lot about self-accommodation,
creating those spaces for yourself,especially when we're in just spaces of
discomfort, and that discomfort can comefrom a number of different reasons.
But if we're in that space of discomfort,
identifyingwhere is this discomfort coming from? Deepak (he/him): Yeah!
Is it because there's a rooted to historical harm,
(14:23):
or is it my uncomfortabilitywith getting to know
something newor getting engaged with a new thought
and getting to engage with somethingthat is different for yourself.
And so making those accommodationsfor yourself, making that space
for yourself,I think is a big piece of this discussion.
Now when we're talking about workplacesisn't just another employee
(14:45):
my job is not to educate youunless that's my job description.
That's my job description
is to be a Learning and Development personfor Diversity and Inclusion programs.
Otherwise, my job is not hereto make you comfortable with who I am.
Your job, on the other hand,is to not stand in the way of inclusion,
don't make the environments such thatI feel like you don't belong there.
(15:07):
Does that make sense?
Definitely does.
Like, I don't need you to understandmy experience
as an autistic person for instance,but I do need you to respect that
I'm going to communicate differently.
I'm going to engage slightly differently,and I might not pick up
on some social cues and it's recognizingthese intersections with each other
(15:29):
and the different ways that we canmake sure that we're not causing harm
as we go forwardand not intentionally making other people
feel like they don't belong in a spacethrough those actions.
Like there are certain thingsthat I just don't understand.
Like there are certain political beliefsI don't understand.
There are certain experiences of identityI just don't understand.
(15:53):
But that doesn't mean I'm going to makethem not feel like they belong.
So what has workedwell to make people feel like they belong
through wellness programs or otherwiseor what
are those small moments that have madeyou feel like you belong?
Deepak (he/him) (16:09):
So I think the moment I let go of the insistence on
I will make progressonly when I guilt and shame you.
I don't insist on thatjust because I've gone through something.
Now you have to change your life for me.
But I also make sure that reasonable
accommodationsare made for things that I cannot change
(16:32):
and things that actually make the workenvironment unsafe.
The other unrelated thingthat sort of has worked for me is
I do not gothe route of making financial arguments
about the validity of diversity, inclusionand belonging to work.
I love money.
I love people when they make money fairand square.
(16:53):
It's amazing.
But we are here not to make money overother people's suffering.
So you're not righting the wrongsso that you can earn more money
if it's a happy consequence. Amazing.
Erin (she/her) (17:04):
I totally agree. Deepak (he/him)
So if I'm presenting to you a company,you'd probably find one slide
that talks about this.
You find another slide that makes the pointof socio-ethical, legal arguments.
I take you through the journeyof how we used to look at workers.
We have improved a lot, but we cannot saynow we've come to the place
(17:27):
where there's no more evolution requiredin terms of bettering workers conditions.
In terms of bettering inclusion.
It's like, say to women;"You know, you've got the right to vote.
You can own property. Nowwhat else do you need?"
There never comes a timewhere you have to many rights.
Rights is not a conceptthat can be applied in excess.
(17:48):
Rights is a conceptthat's not giving. Rights
are never given -you just move out of the way.
Jade (they/them) (17:54):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of progress that we've made, but a lot more that can be.
And I see how some of these workplacewellness initiatives
that we've learned over recent time
over the pushing of the moral casefor Diversity,
Equity, Inclusionare getting a bit of pushback, too.
But I do see the progress still.
(18:15):
And so do you have any advicefor engaging employers
or for otherswithin their organizations?
Deepak (he/him) (18:23):
Profit becomes more and more and more meaningful
only when there are threeother P's that come before it; People
Purpose and Planet.Their relationship to each other
is very interdependentand circular in nature.
If you have more profit, you have moremoney, you will invest it in your people.
You will try to invest itin more purposeful ways.
Otherwise you're just going to be lookedat as a heartless organization,
(18:48):
an organization where people workonly because they're desperate.
And the moment they upskill themselvesand they better themselves,
the first thing they want to do is leave.
And people have woken upto the three M's, which is Money
Manager and Meaning. Money.
We were always aware of money,but people have woken up.
Now they can compare
how much the same position is being paidin other companies of similar size.
(19:10):
It's no longer a secret. Managers.
People know people don't quit their jobs.
They quit their Managers.Because they don't feel included.
They don't feel they belong there.
They feel humiliatedor they feel psychologically
unsafe.And meaningful connection to the work.
Not every work is evidently meaningfulin and of itself.
The most rewarding and meaningfulthings is make it relational, make it
(19:32):
relational, make it attachedto real meaning, real life, real people.
Because nothing inthis world is important
if it is not affecting real people'slives, either
in the long term or the shortterm immediately or in a bit of time.
And if you're ableto get these three M's: Money,
a good Manager and Meaning,you'd probably be able to hold on
(19:53):
to people a little longerand make them feel dignity in the process.
Jade (they/them) (19:57):
That concept of meaning is so deeply connected for this idea of belonging.
If you don't have meaning,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If you don't have purpose,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If you're not compensated properly,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If your manager micromanagesor just doesn't manage at all.
(20:22):
Also, where you're just like lefthanging and left in the wind,
you're not going to feel like you belong.
So I appreciatelike all of these different aspects
of recognizing the changing nature of workwhere it's
actually caught up to our humannessor we hope that it is, at least.
Deepak (he/him) (20:41):
And the good
news about meaning, Jade,is that it is always created.
There is no inherent meaning in anything,as I see it.
Jade (they/them) (20:49):
Yeah. Deepak (he/him)
Your moneyis not going to make me immortal.
Neither will it make you immortal.
Yes. Your funeral processionmight be slightly bigger than mine.
More people might attended,but it won't bring you back to life.
All that we are asking foris before we die, we suffer less.
And we live with dignity.
(21:09):
And that's all that we are asking.
I'm so grateful for that share.
So let's look towards the future.
Erin, where are we going from hereto build that future?
Erin (she/her) (21:20):
Yeah. Thanks, Jade.
I think this is sort of our opportunityto paint a picture.
I use the term "utopia".
I don't know if we will ever getthere as a human species,
because you said it earlier,Deepak, evolution is still required.
But can you create and paint a picturefor us what does that utopia look like?
Deepak (he/him) (21:40):
So I think there are functional utopias and dysfunctional utopias.
The idea of utopia where everyone is
"woke" and no one's hurt.
I'm not sure we'll get to that pointbecause in this story is a very linear
and one dimensional story where there'sonly one oppressor, one victim, one hero.
(22:03):
Most of the Eastern stories will confuse
you because the herosometimes act as a villain.
Sometimes a villainis actually the victim.
Sometimes the victim is the oppressor.
You are a dynamic human being.
You're going to play all the roles.
So part of Utopia would be giving yourselfmore dimensions
and othersmore dimensions than are meeting the eye.
(22:25):
I also love this one line from Buddha.
He says, doyou want the wire to be so tight that it
breaks, or do you want it to be so loosethat it can't produce
music? It has to be somewhere in that golden mean, that it's tight enough
and loose enough that it producesthe music of poetry
of life. So a functional utopia is whereverthere is suffering,
(22:49):
you shall have the coping mechanismto deal with it.
Erin (she/her) (22:52):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Deepak (he/him) (22:53):
It's very interesting exercise to talk about utopia right?
Erin (she/her) (22:58):
No, keep going, keep going.
I like this picturethat you're painting for us.
Deepak (he/him) (23:02):
Yeah.
So I think accountability, vulnerability
and safety, they're not mutually exclusiveof each other.
They, in fact, arecomplementary of each other.
You still have the accountabilityfor your behavior
to not traumatize others.
The moment you asked for unreasonablethings of others to accommodate you,
(23:22):
that is no longer trauma.
That's entitlement.
There's trauma-entitlement as well.
There's privilege-entitlement.
There's trauma-entitlement.
Listen, you could come
from all sorts of identitiesand all sorts of lived experiences.
But an explanationand an excuse are two different things.
If we say "no" to,everything that makes us uncomfortable.
Our "yeses" also become meaningless.
(23:45):
So we need to know our "no's"so that our "yeses" are more meaningful.
Erin (she/her) (23:49):
Absolutely.
Thank you so muchfor answering our questions,
but we have a few rapid fire questionsto close us out.
Jade's going to start us off.
We want the firstthing that comes to mind.
Jade (they/them) (24:02):
So, question
one (24:02):
if you could recommend one book, what would it be?
Deepak (he/him) (24:07):
(Homo) Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari.
And not only because he's gay.
It's an amazing book. Erin (she/her) (24:11):
Amazing.
I now have another book to add to my list.
My question is, what brings you joy?
Deepak (he/him) (24:18):
Oh my God, I'm such a nerd.
Learning new things about philosophy,psychology, politics, history, sexuality.
No matter how sad I am, if I do that, I'mjust put in a different zone altogether.
And I do enjoy good standupcomedy routine.
Erin (she/her) (24:34):
I love it.
Jade (they/them) (24:34):
Amazing what's your theme song for today?
"Go Easy on Me" by Adele.
Erin (she/her) (24:43):
Yes, I am over here loving all of these answers.
Oh, Adele. Who is someone that inspires you
and how you create belongingand doesn't get enough credit?
There's a gay prince from India.
His name is Manvendra Singh Gohil.
He came outas probably among the first royalty
in the world to openly come outand declare that he's gay.
(25:06):
And he's been trying.
He was thrown out of the palace,has just the title and no money.
He's still trying and tryingand trying to create an inclusive society.
That's just likeone of my personal heroes.
And I also happen to know himpersonally. Jade (they/them): Amazing.
And our final question is,
what is one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners?
Deepak (he/him) (25:26):
Introspection is where we start.
So I would like all of usto be as honestly introspective
and honestly accepting of ourselvesas we can.
And don't get too scared.
You'll be fine.
Jade (they/them) (25:39):
To sit in the discomfort once in a while.
Deepak (he/him) (25:42):
Yeah.
Jade (they/them) (25:44):
I am so grateful for everything that you've shared today, Erin (she/her)
Thank you for giving usthe gift of your time today.
Deepak (he/him) (25:51):
Thank you for having me.
It was amazing experience.
Jade (they/them) (25:56):
Erin, what do you think?
Erin (she/her) (25:58):
I am still processing all of the amazing pieces that Deepak shared with us.
What stood out for you?
Jade (they/them) (26:06):
You know, one of the things that I really saw through the conversation
today with Deepak was just how muchhe brought vulnerability to the discussion
of being a newcomer in Canadaand what that was like for employment.
Erin (she/her) (26:20):
I totally agree.
I know from my personal experience,I meet many people who have come to Canada
who have such a high education, yetthey face barriers in terms of access
to jobs and jobs that would be meaningfulto them based on their education,
what they're passionate about.Why does this matter?
(26:43):
We know through statisticsthat immigrants and refugees
comprise 21.9% of the Canadian population,
and this number continues to rise.
This is part of the workthat we have to do to unpack
our own privileges and understandthe work that still needs to be done
to allow everyoneto achieve their highest potential.
Jade (they/them) (27:04):
Yeah, I see that questioning happening a lot.
Erin (she/her) (27:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it'll will give our listenerslots to think about as well.
And I look forwardto continuing these conversations.
Jade (they/them) (27:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
We hope that you enjoyed learnedand uncovered deeper belonging with us.
and our guest Deepak Kashyap.We encourage you to connect with us on
LinkedIn and let us know what part oftoday's episode resonated most with you.
We also would like to think and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
Erin (she/her) (27:37):
Today's episode is sponsored by Shaw Communications.
They connect millions of Canadiansevery day
to brighter technology solutions,and they're proud to celebrate
the rainbow of identities on their teamsthat make that possible.
The richness of diversity
among their staff and communitiesis what makes them uniquely Shaw.
It impacts everything they do. Shaw is a placewhere everyone can bring
(28:00):
their whole selves to workand feel a sense of belonging.
To learn more about Shaw, visit Shaw.ca
That's s - h- a- w - dot c-a.
Jade (they/them) (28:11):
Also thanks to our production team, including our editor Shawn Ahmed, our
communications coordinator, Luis Augusto Nobre, and our production support,
Connor Pion.
And of course
most of all, we'd like to thank youfor joining us on our first episode.
This has been
a bit of a dream for Erin and Iand so we're so grateful for the support.
(28:31):
For more informationabout today's guests, links referenced
and a transcript,check out our show notes,
which are available on the Pride at WorkCanada website.
You can also subscribe or followwherever you get your podcasts,
and we look forward to joining usin the future and finding moments
where we can uncover belonging
When I came to Canada, I realized that and this has been said about the Canadian
immigration system, that it's very justbut it's not very fair.
Jade (they/them) (00:10):
I'm Jade Pichette, they/them.
Erin (she/her) (00:12):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns she and her.
Jade (they/them) (00:16):
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
Erin (she/her) (00:18):
A podcast that explores the professional and personal stories of unique voices
of what it means to belong.
Jade (they/them) (00:23):
And the journey to finding our authentic self.
So I'm really excited, Erin,
today to be talking to Deepak Kashyap.
I've met him quite a few times.
I know you haven't yet.So welcome, Deepak.
Deepak (he/him):Thank you very much. It means a lot to me.
Deepak Kashyap, he/him,
is a member of the Ontario Associationof Mental Health Practitioners
(00:47):
and the Canadian Counselingand Psychotherapy Association.
He provides emotional and mental health
services in personas well as online for over ten years.
He holds a master's degreein the Psychology of Education
from the University of Bristol, U.K.,has been formally trained
in advanced programs in REBT and CBT
from the Albert Ellis Institutein New York and attended the MBCT
(01:11):
Summer School Program at the OxfordMindfulness Center at the University
of Oxford.
Deepak's experience lies in developingand delivering programs for organizational
mental health initiatives, anti-racismand anti-oppression frameworks, diversity,
inclusion, training and LGBTQ2Splus leadership and rights activism.
He has developed and deliveredprograms like Employee Emotional First
(01:34):
Aid, Productivity and Mental HealthDuring the Pandemic, Working from Home:
The New Normal, Unconscious Bias, Safeand Respectful Work Environment.
Psychological Safety at Work,Effective versus Performative Allyship,
Making Workplaces
More Welcoming of the Queer EmployeesBeyond Just the Pride Month,
Emotional Skills for Feminism,
Distinctionsbetween Social Justice Warriors
(01:56):
and Workers, Squaring Up Meritocracyand Privilege Myths.
He has conductedworkshops in India, Dubai,
the United States, UK, Europe and Canada.
He is a published columnist.
He has appeared on various nationaland international news channels,
talk shows,and this is something that I am learning
also, is that Deepak is India's firstopenly gay television co-host.
(02:20):
Deepak, happyto have you as a guest on our podcast.
Erin (she/her) (02:24):
I don't know if this is true for you, but I will set in a little bit of discomfort
as someone else readsmy bio and feel like,
wow, that's really a lot of things.
We don't need to spend time on myself,but I'm here to give gratitude
for all of the amazing workthat you've done.
Deepak (he/him) (02:41):
Exactly the same, exactly the way.
I was just like, Oh, my God,I'm going to apologize to Jade later
and tell them that listen, next timeI'll send you an abbreviated one.
So yeah, thank you very much.
Jade (they/them) (02:56):
I just think all of those pieces of yourself are important.
And as somebody with a background inSocial Work who's working in this space,
I know how often those of uswho are doing that kind of Social Work
or Psychology,Counseling Support often are focused
so much on others that it's hardsometimes to focus on ourselves.
(03:18):
But we're all about you today.
And I think that every piece of thatis important.
Deepak (he/him) (03:25):
That it gives me such an ego boost.
Jade (they/them) (03:28):
We all need those each give us once in a while.
I think, especially those of uswho do community work, we deserve it
once in a while.
So, Erin,do you want to get to know Deepak a bit
more in terms of beyond the on the bio?
Erin (she/her) (03:40):
Absolutely.
And I know that our listenerswill want to as well.
So how did you get to this work?
How did you end up in the Diversityand Inclusion space?
I mean, I chose Psychologybecause I absolutely love Psychology.
And at the time we're talking 15,20 years ago when Diversity and Inclusion
wasn't the hot topic, as the history oftopics goes, it's literally 5 minutes old.
(04:02):
It's still hot.Everyone wants a piece of it.
So I was born in India,my father was born in India,
but his father was born in Pakistanduring the partition of the country.
His father had moved here.
I was raised in India as the English
speaking elite of the country,as the upper caste, upper class.
But we were still refugees from Pakistan.
It was a very interesting experience.
(04:23):
We were upper caste but economically poorbecause we were refugees
when I was growing up,I think because of who we were,
our education and things like that,we quickly rose through the social ranks.
We were already the upper,and I know it's a horrible thing
to even use that word "upper caste"and "lower caste".
(04:44):
But right now I'm talking aboutwhat is not what I would like it to be.
So that's importantas a context to remember.
So it was easier for us to sort of,you know, get education and get the money
and get the connectionsand whatnot and rise
up to the level of truly calling onsounds middle class Indians.
So while I was in Indiaand before I was sent to England
(05:05):
to study and my parents then could afford
to send me to England to study,I had so much privilege.
The moment I landed in England,I was just another brown immigrant.
Jade (they/them) (05:18):
Hi, everyone, this is Jade,
and I'm recording this after the factto provide listeners with a content note.
Deepak is going to share a story
which includes a reference to humantrafficking and sex trafficking.
So if you need to, you may want to pressthe skip forward button
to go about a minute or two forward.
Deepeak (he/him) (05:39):
So of course, I went through the sophomore year of angry
college student who's angry at everythingand everything is racist.
And everyone's homophobicand everyone's "this"phobic.
And then I had a teacher from Ghana.
She had worked on salvaging,saving literally
saving girls from human trafficking.
And I was this angry sophomore person.
(06:02):
So once I kind of had it out with myteacher and I said, Why are you not angry?
You talk about injustice with this -
Um - the word that I use Jade inErin was "academic sterility".
And I was so proud of my vocabularybecause I was learning this vocabulary
to name and shame.
And then I realized quicklythat I'm yelling at a Black woman
(06:23):
in a class and I'm like, Oh,my God, you need to,
like, you know, calm the fuck down a little,a little, blah, blah, blah.
And then I go up to herand she says, "Deepak, the only difference
between you and I atthis moment is you look at inequalities
and discriminationas a result of human evilness.
I look at them as a result of humanweakness."
Erin (she/her) (06:45):
Wow. Deepak (he/him)
That was the start of the changethat a woman who was sex
trafficked herself,who saved herself into becoming
literally the savior for others, for many,many others wasn't angry.
And I was this little privileged boyfrom India.
And I was carrying this angerfrom everyone around me thinking that
(07:09):
that's what gives me identityand that's what gives me validation.
So that sort of made me realize that
I need to make the shiftfrom being a warrior to a worker.
And she kept educating me about this.
And she would say, you have to realizethat the moment you are in the warrior
mentality, you have to choose sidesand you have to look at the other side
as a monolith to be attacked,not to be understood.
(07:32):
The moment we are in war mentality.
The other is a monolithic tribeand all have to be attacked.
Women, children, old alike.
But a worker has to passionately workwith everybody.
The worker doesn't have to choose sides.
It has to be on the side of valuesand not identities.
If you're applying justice, that appliesto everyone. That particular teacher
(07:55):
of mine really changed my attitudestowards it. Erin (she/her): Wow.
Deepak (he/him) (07:59):
And then the second step came into my journey when I came to Canada.
And this has been said about the Canadianimmigration system that it's very just
but it's not very fair.
Why is it just? Because you can'tbribe yourself into Canada.
You have to fulfill some of the thingsand if you fulfill, regardless
of where you are from,you will make it to Canada.
So, it's just that way.
But Canada goes around the worldcollecting the cream of the crop.
(08:22):
We asked for a Master's degree.
We ask for certainlevel of English proficiency.
We ask for a certain amount in your bank.
We ask for this, that and the other.
So we are going around not just picking upanyone other than the refugee things
that we have going on,which I applaud with all of my heart.
We're not just inviting anyone.
We are inviting the cream of the cropand then the moment they land in Canada,
(08:44):
we like, Oops, sorry,you can only work at Tim Hortons
and there's nothing wrong
with working at Tim Horton's,but that's not what these people
have proved their skills for.
So that's what happened to me.
Yes, there are unions and yes,there are quality assurance things
that every country needs to have,but these quality assurances could quickly
turn into entry barriersfor people who are very qualified
(09:07):
but are not allowed to work.
I've sat in one too many
Ubers being driven by doctorsfrom Iran, from Syria, from India.
So that just made me realize that, yes,you've let me in and I'm grateful,
but, you've taken my professional identityaway from me
and there is no recourse to it.
And no one tells you thiswhen you're immigrating to Canada
(09:28):
and that's what that me like,hey, I need to do something.
So it's like I've been doing Diversityand Inclusion work in India.
I'm going to continue.
So I set up my own organizationcalled Lotus Mindfulness Center
where we work on Wellness,we work on Psychological Safety
in workplaces, and we work on Diversityand Inclusion and Belongingness.
Yes, sorry, that was a long story,but I kind of needed to get through it
(09:51):
for you to understand why I'm sopassionate about wellness and diversity.
Erin (she/her) (09:56):
There's no need to apologize.
I'm taking copious amounts of notesbecause I love all of these
different piecesthat you're sharing with us.
And yes, D&I is 5 minutes old,and the work that people have been
doing for years definitely constitutesthe work that we do now in this space.
It's just been sort of categorized in away to allow organizations to check a box
(10:18):
to say that we are doing these thingsto make people feel included at work.
But do they? Do they truly findand feel that sense of belonging?
And I wondernow, at this stage in your career,
why does this workmake you feel that sense of belonging?
Deepeak (he/him) (10:34):
Because belongingness is a two way street.
You can find belonging from outside
but a sense of belongingcan also be generated from within.
Like, for example, I look the way I do.
I've got a weird accent.I switch accents every now and then.
When I go to India, or hereI've lived in four different countries.
There are times when I ask,Where do I belong?
I know where I was born.
(10:55):
I speak four languages,but where do I belong?
I had to start belonging to me first.Belongingness
is another name for attachmentplus connection.
I'm connected to you,but I also feel care.
So if I start feeling the connectionwith myself and give up this idea
(11:15):
that I have to prove myself to somebody.This is who
I am in my unique colours.
Erin (she/her) (11:22):
Absolutely.
And I think there's this fascinatingcomponent to the work that we do in terms
of our own unique identitiesand this need to fit in
that I need to be like othersto feel a sense of belonging.
But as you unpack, it is absolutely notthat it's our unique sense of
how do we have this attachmentto something,
(11:44):
but also make that connection,knowing that we can exist
within differencesand celebrate those differences.
So I'll turn it over to Jadeto take us a little bit down that pathway.
Jade (they/them) (11:57):
This discussion is making me think a lot about chosen family, and I think
this is something that a lot of workplacesstruggle with understanding
is that for equity-deserving groups,those people who we build
attachment and connectionand care with may not be who
we are biologically or legally related toin the same ways.
(12:19):
And that has a big impact on our wellnessat work.
That has a big impacton how we see ourselves
and in the supports that we need.
So, Deepak,what are some of the barriers that you see
in terms of building that wellness?
Deeoeak (he/him) (12:35):
I think you said something really important about choosing family.
The word choicemeans that you have to act to choose.
Jade (they/them) (12:43):
Right.
Deepak (he/him) (12:44):
The choice has to be made for belonging.
To venture outand take dangerous risks of vulnerability.
Jade (they/them) (12:51):
Yes. Deepak (he/him)
Neither is heart guaranteed,nor is safety guaranteed.
And that's how I'm going to sort ofcome to the barriers.
You will face discomfort on a day to daybasis.
When you go out, there will be peoplewho probably don't understand pronouns.
There are people who do not understandor believe in intersectionality.
There are people who thinkthat you are probably
(13:14):
overstating the harm and hurtthat's been done to you.
Or you're being dramatic.
All of these are discomforting,distressing things,
but they are not dangerous.
The moment we conflate dangerand discomfort,
then we're ensuring safetyonly for ourselves.
So while it is super importantto make safe
(13:34):
spaces, it's also super importantto make brave spaces.
We need to have both.
A lot of the times
people dismiss the safety of it,and I don't stand behind that idea.
I'm not coming here with a"but" I'm coming here with an "and" safe
and brave,
because if we're going to chooseto be leaders,
we will have to expect these bumps tocome our way and they can get very tiring.
(13:59):
Yeah, I hear a lot about self-accommodation,
creating those spaces for yourself,especially when we're in just spaces of
discomfort, and that discomfort can comefrom a number of different reasons.
But if we're in that space of discomfort,
identifyingwhere is this discomfort coming from? Deepak (he/him): Yeah!
Is it because there's a rooted to historical harm,
(14:23):
or is it my uncomfortabilitywith getting to know
something newor getting engaged with a new thought
and getting to engage with somethingthat is different for yourself.
And so making those accommodationsfor yourself, making that space
for yourself,I think is a big piece of this discussion.
Now when we're talking about workplacesisn't just another employee
(14:45):
my job is not to educate youunless that's my job description.
That's my job description
is to be a Learning and Development personfor Diversity and Inclusion programs.
Otherwise, my job is not hereto make you comfortable with who I am.
Your job, on the other hand,is to not stand in the way of inclusion,
don't make the environments such thatI feel like you don't belong there.
(15:07):
Does that make sense?
Definitely does.
Like, I don't need you to understandmy experience
as an autistic person for instance,but I do need you to respect that
I'm going to communicate differently.
I'm going to engage slightly differently,and I might not pick up
on some social cues and it's recognizingthese intersections with each other
(15:29):
and the different ways that we canmake sure that we're not causing harm
as we go forwardand not intentionally making other people
feel like they don't belong in a spacethrough those actions.
Like there are certain thingsthat I just don't understand.
Like there are certain political beliefsI don't understand.
There are certain experiences of identityI just don't understand.
(15:53):
But that doesn't mean I'm going to makethem not feel like they belong.
So what has workedwell to make people feel like they belong
through wellness programs or otherwiseor what
are those small moments that have madeyou feel like you belong?
Deepak (he/him) (16:09):
So I think the moment I let go of the insistence on
I will make progressonly when I guilt and shame you.
I don't insist on thatjust because I've gone through something.
Now you have to change your life for me.
But I also make sure that reasonable
accommodationsare made for things that I cannot change
(16:32):
and things that actually make the workenvironment unsafe.
The other unrelated thingthat sort of has worked for me is
I do not gothe route of making financial arguments
about the validity of diversity, inclusionand belonging to work.
I love money.
I love people when they make money fairand square.
(16:53):
It's amazing.
But we are here not to make money overother people's suffering.
So you're not righting the wrongsso that you can earn more money
if it's a happy consequence. Amazing.
Erin (she/her) (17:04):
I totally agree. Deepak (he/him)
So if I'm presenting to you a company,you'd probably find one slide
that talks about this.
You find another slide that makes the pointof socio-ethical, legal arguments.
I take you through the journeyof how we used to look at workers.
We have improved a lot, but we cannot saynow we've come to the place
(17:27):
where there's no more evolution requiredin terms of bettering workers conditions.
In terms of bettering inclusion.
It's like, say to women;"You know, you've got the right to vote.
You can own property. Nowwhat else do you need?"
There never comes a timewhere you have to many rights.
Rights is not a conceptthat can be applied in excess.
(17:48):
Rights is a conceptthat's not giving. Rights
are never given -you just move out of the way.
Jade (they/them) (17:54):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of progress that we've made, but a lot more that can be.
And I see how some of these workplacewellness initiatives
that we've learned over recent time
over the pushing of the moral casefor Diversity,
Equity, Inclusionare getting a bit of pushback, too.
But I do see the progress still.
(18:15):
And so do you have any advicefor engaging employers
or for otherswithin their organizations?
Deepak (he/him) (18:23):
Profit becomes more and more and more meaningful
only when there are threeother P's that come before it; People
Purpose and Planet.Their relationship to each other
is very interdependentand circular in nature.
If you have more profit, you have moremoney, you will invest it in your people.
You will try to invest itin more purposeful ways.
Otherwise you're just going to be lookedat as a heartless organization,
(18:48):
an organization where people workonly because they're desperate.
And the moment they upskill themselvesand they better themselves,
the first thing they want to do is leave.
And people have woken upto the three M's, which is Money
Manager and Meaning. Money.
We were always aware of money,but people have woken up.
Now they can compare
how much the same position is being paidin other companies of similar size.
(19:10):
It's no longer a secret. Managers.
People know people don't quit their jobs.
They quit their Managers.Because they don't feel included.
They don't feel they belong there.
They feel humiliatedor they feel psychologically
unsafe.And meaningful connection to the work.
Not every work is evidently meaningfulin and of itself.
The most rewarding and meaningfulthings is make it relational, make it
(19:32):
relational, make it attachedto real meaning, real life, real people.
Because nothing inthis world is important
if it is not affecting real people'slives, either
in the long term or the shortterm immediately or in a bit of time.
And if you're ableto get these three M's: Money,
a good Manager and Meaning,you'd probably be able to hold on
(19:53):
to people a little longerand make them feel dignity in the process.
Jade (they/them) (19:57):
That concept of meaning is so deeply connected for this idea of belonging.
If you don't have meaning,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If you don't have purpose,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If you're not compensated properly,you're not going to feel like you belong.
If your manager micromanagesor just doesn't manage at all.
(20:22):
Also, where you're just like lefthanging and left in the wind,
you're not going to feel like you belong.
So I appreciatelike all of these different aspects
of recognizing the changing nature of workwhere it's
actually caught up to our humannessor we hope that it is, at least.
Deepak (he/him) (20:41):
And the good
news about meaning, Jade,is that it is always created.
There is no inherent meaning in anything,as I see it.
Jade (they/them) (20:49):
Yeah. Deepak (he/him)
Your moneyis not going to make me immortal.
Neither will it make you immortal.
Yes. Your funeral processionmight be slightly bigger than mine.
More people might attended,but it won't bring you back to life.
All that we are asking foris before we die, we suffer less.
And we live with dignity.
(21:09):
And that's all that we are asking.
I'm so grateful for that share.
So let's look towards the future.
Erin, where are we going from hereto build that future?
Erin (she/her) (21:20):
Yeah. Thanks, Jade.
I think this is sort of our opportunityto paint a picture.
I use the term "utopia".
I don't know if we will ever getthere as a human species,
because you said it earlier,Deepak, evolution is still required.
But can you create and paint a picturefor us what does that utopia look like?
Deepak (he/him) (21:40):
So I think there are functional utopias and dysfunctional utopias.
The idea of utopia where everyone is
"woke" and no one's hurt.
I'm not sure we'll get to that pointbecause in this story is a very linear
and one dimensional story where there'sonly one oppressor, one victim, one hero.
(22:03):
Most of the Eastern stories will confuse
you because the herosometimes act as a villain.
Sometimes a villainis actually the victim.
Sometimes the victim is the oppressor.
You are a dynamic human being.
You're going to play all the roles.
So part of Utopia would be giving yourselfmore dimensions
and othersmore dimensions than are meeting the eye.
(22:25):
I also love this one line from Buddha.
He says, doyou want the wire to be so tight that it
breaks, or do you want it to be so loosethat it can't produce
music? It has to be somewhere in that golden mean, that it's tight enough
and loose enough that it producesthe music of poetry
of life. So a functional utopia is whereverthere is suffering,
(22:49):
you shall have the coping mechanismto deal with it.
Erin (she/her) (22:52):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Deepak (he/him) (22:53):
It's very interesting exercise to talk about utopia right?
Erin (she/her) (22:58):
No, keep going, keep going.
I like this picturethat you're painting for us.
Deepak (he/him) (23:02):
Yeah.
So I think accountability, vulnerability
and safety, they're not mutually exclusiveof each other.
They, in fact, arecomplementary of each other.
You still have the accountabilityfor your behavior
to not traumatize others.
The moment you asked for unreasonablethings of others to accommodate you,
(23:22):
that is no longer trauma.
That's entitlement.
There's trauma-entitlement as well.
There's privilege-entitlement.
There's trauma-entitlement.
Listen, you could come
from all sorts of identitiesand all sorts of lived experiences.
But an explanationand an excuse are two different things.
If we say "no" to,everything that makes us uncomfortable.
Our "yeses" also become meaningless.
(23:45):
So we need to know our "no's"so that our "yeses" are more meaningful.
Erin (she/her) (23:49):
Absolutely.
Thank you so muchfor answering our questions,
but we have a few rapid fire questionsto close us out.
Jade's going to start us off.
We want the firstthing that comes to mind.
Jade (they/them) (24:02):
So, question
one (24:02):
if you could recommend one book, what would it be?
Deepak (he/him) (24:07):
(Homo) Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari.
And not only because he's gay.
It's an amazing book. Erin (she/her) (24:11):
Amazing.
I now have another book to add to my list.
My question is, what brings you joy?
Deepak (he/him) (24:18):
Oh my God, I'm such a nerd.
Learning new things about philosophy,psychology, politics, history, sexuality.
No matter how sad I am, if I do that, I'mjust put in a different zone altogether.
And I do enjoy good standupcomedy routine.
Erin (she/her) (24:34):
I love it.
Jade (they/them) (24:34):
Amazing what's your theme song for today?
"Go Easy on Me" by Adele.
Erin (she/her) (24:43):
Yes, I am over here loving all of these answers.
Oh, Adele. Who is someone that inspires you
and how you create belongingand doesn't get enough credit?
There's a gay prince from India.
His name is Manvendra Singh Gohil.
He came outas probably among the first royalty
in the world to openly come outand declare that he's gay.
(25:06):
And he's been trying.
He was thrown out of the palace,has just the title and no money.
He's still trying and tryingand trying to create an inclusive society.
That's just likeone of my personal heroes.
And I also happen to know himpersonally. Jade (they/them): Amazing.
And our final question is,
what is one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners?
Deepak (he/him) (25:26):
Introspection is where we start.
So I would like all of usto be as honestly introspective
and honestly accepting of ourselvesas we can.
And don't get too scared.
You'll be fine.
Jade (they/them) (25:39):
To sit in the discomfort once in a while.
Deepak (he/him) (25:42):
Yeah.
Jade (they/them) (25:44):
I am so grateful for everything that you've shared today, Erin (she/her)
Thank you for giving usthe gift of your time today.
Deepak (he/him) (25:51):
Thank you for having me.
It was amazing experience.
Jade (they/them) (25:56):
Erin, what do you think?
Erin (she/her) (25:58):
I am still processing all of the amazing pieces that Deepak shared with us.
What stood out for you?
Jade (they/them) (26:06):
You know, one of the things that I really saw through the conversation
today with Deepak was just how muchhe brought vulnerability to the discussion
of being a newcomer in Canadaand what that was like for employment.
Erin (she/her) (26:20):
I totally agree.
I know from my personal experience,I meet many people who have come to Canada
who have such a high education, yetthey face barriers in terms of access
to jobs and jobs that would be meaningfulto them based on their education,
what they're passionate about.Why does this matter?
(26:43):
We know through statisticsthat immigrants and refugees
comprise 21.9% of the Canadian population,
and this number continues to rise.
This is part of the workthat we have to do to unpack
our own privileges and understandthe work that still needs to be done
to allow everyoneto achieve their highest potential.
Jade (they/them) (27:04):
Yeah, I see that questioning happening a lot.
Erin (she/her) (27:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it'll will give our listenerslots to think about as well.
And I look forwardto continuing these conversations.
Jade (they/them) (27:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
We hope that you enjoyed learnedand uncovered deeper belonging with us.
and our guest Deepak Kashyap.We encourage you to connect with us on
LinkedIn and let us know what part oftoday's episode resonated most with you.
We also would like to think and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
Erin (she/her) (27:37):
Today's episode is sponsored by Shaw Communications.
They connect millions of Canadiansevery day
to brighter technology solutions,and they're proud to celebrate
the rainbow of identities on their teamsthat make that possible.
The richness of diversity
among their staff and communitiesis what makes them uniquely Shaw.
It impacts everything they do. Shaw is a placewhere everyone can bring
(28:00):
their whole selves to workand feel a sense of belonging.
To learn more about Shaw, visit Shaw.ca
That's s - h- a- w - dot c-a.
Jade (they/them) (28:11):
Also thanks to our production team, including our editor Shawn Ahmed, our
communications coordinator, Luis Augusto Nobre, and our production support,
Connor Pion.
And of course
most of all, we'd like to thank youfor joining us on our first episode.
This has been
a bit of a dream for Erin and Iand so we're so grateful for the support.
(28:31):
For more informationabout today's guests, links referenced
and a transcript,check out our show notes,
which are available on the Pride at WorkCanada website.
You can also subscribe or followwherever you get your podcasts,
and we look forward to joining usin the future and finding moments
where we can uncover belonging
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