July 31, 2022 • 36 mins
How can we create belonging when we can’t talk to one another? David Lewis-Peart (he/him), community worker, corporate trainer, writer and playwright, joins our cohosts Erin Davis (she/her) and Jade Pichette (they/them) in discussing how we can talk across differences. David addresses how we can work in right relationship with one another. Audio transcript and captions are coming shortly.
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David (he/him) (00:00):
There's a million and one EDI professionals everywhere.
(00:02):
We've been doing allthese inclusion projects,
and it's been going on likethis for the last 15 years.
If this is working, have we producedthe outcomes that we've set out to do?
And if we haven't, do we needto go back to the drawing board
around what it is that we're doing?
Jade (they/them) (00:18):
I'm Jade Pichette.
(they/them)
Erin (she/her) (00:20):
and I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns
she and her.
Jade (they/them) (00:24):
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging,
Erin (She/her) (00:26):
a podcast that explores the professional and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade (they/them) (00:32):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Erin, I'm so
excited to introduce youtoday to David Lewis-Peart.
Erin (she/her) (00:42):
I'm excited as well. This is so fun for us because every episode
one of us gets to meet someone new
and so that's for me this episodeand meeting David and hearing more
about his journey and his work.
Jade (they/them) (00:54):
David Lewis-Peart (he/him) has worked in a number of roles - adjunct professor,
community worker, consultant, corporatetrainer, writer, and playwright.
He completed graduate studies atYork University in Toronto, where
his area of research was on communityinterventions and Black gay male youth.
(01:15):
He holds a diploma in Human ServicesCounseling - mental health and addictions,
post-graduate training in AlternativeDispute Resolution and Mediation,
has certification in Life SkillsCoaching, and additional training
in Facilitating Restorative Circlesand Family Group Conferencing.
He has previously been a member offaculty in both the Child and Youth
(01:36):
Care and Social Service Work programsin Toronto, Brampton and Oakville.
David has been a founding lead ona number of community service and
arts-based initiatives, supportingBlack and other groups, including
work with Sunset Service Toronto
and We Other Sons, a queer men of colortheater arts collective through Buddies
in Bad Times Theater. More recently,David speaks on and delivers training
(02:00):
around working across difference andrestorative practice, and has regularly
contributed to publications such as CBCArts, Huffington Post Canada, ByBlacks
and Global News on topics of race,identity, masculinity, and wellbeing.
He is presently undergoing graduatestudy with a focus on Indigenous trauma
(02:20):
and resiliency at the University ofToronto's Faculty of Social Work.
And currently he's calling in fromTkarón:to or Toronto, and I'm
grateful to have you here and
also just to see your face, cuz it'sbeen, uh, I think the last time we
actually saw each other in person wasthe Parliament of World Religions, in 2018,
which was, uh, quite the experienceI have to say, but so glad that you're
(02:43):
able to make it with us today andyou're spending the time with us.
David (he/him) (02:46):
Thanks for having me Jade.
Thanks for having me Erin.
Erin (she/her) (02:50):
Hi, David.
So excited to hear yourstory. Just hearing your bio
there are so many themes and topicsthat we could discuss today, but
I wanna open up the conversationand just ask: how did you get into
this work, and how did you end up inthe diversity and inclusion space?
David (he/him) (03:07):
So, I feel like my story is just as long as my bio and
it's a bit of a winding road.
I got into social work because I was akid from a home that had fallen apart,
and I had ended up in the care system.
And I had been helped through somereally amazing people in my life. And
some not-so-amazing people in my life.
And I wanted to do this work becauseI had been impacted by it too.
Erin (she/her) (03:29):
Hmm
David (he/him) (03:30):
And I ended up going into a counseling program at a
vocational college in Toronto.
And while I was there, I had theopportunity to get involved into
some work with an organization calledthe Metro Action Committee on Violence
Against Women and Children (METRAC).
And for those who are in the know METRACwas, and I'm sure still is, a bit
(03:51):
of a hub for a lot of thought leadersand activists. Many many, many, many,
many, mostly women who've gone on tocontribute to this EDI space
and doing work and activism. And it waswhile I was there that I really sort
of honed this interest in the work ofeducating and training and facilitating.
And that was a really great experiencefor me. And when I had completed
(04:14):
college, I had gone off into the world,
I was working in the HIV/AIDSsector, but just prior to that, I
think it was in my late teens,
I had ended up at a talk at theUniversity of Toronto. And there
was a gentleman, who was giving a talk,uh, by the name of Douglas Stewart.
And Douglas Stewart is a quite wellknown Afro-Caribbean Canadian
community builder, and an activist,
(04:36):
and now a consultant and trainer.
And, I saw him, you know, in mylate teens and I see this handsome
older man with dreadlocks commandingthe space in such a beautiful way.
And I remember thinking, God, he'sso handsome, he's so articulate,
and you know, when I'm older, I reallywanna do some of what he's doing.
And as fate would have it, some yearslater, I'm working at Black CAP, the
(04:57):
organization that he helped found andwas the first executive director for,
and he invited me to support him on someconsulting project with a children's
mental health agency in the city.
And that was my first opportunityto do consulting work and
training and education work.
And it went swimmingly.
And that was sort of my toe intothe water of the sort of EDI space.
Jade (they/them) (05:19):
I find it really interesting cuz Douglas intersects with my story as well.
He helped me get to where I am interms of my consulting as well.
If anybody wants to learn about DouglasStewart, his current company is Competence
Consultants, and we'll throw it in theshow notes, as well as METRAC, which is
such a great organization that is stilldoing really, really amazing work.
(05:42):
So David, you've started to mentionthe people and organizations that
have shaped you, but I know wewant to explore more of that story.
So I'm gonna throw it overto Erin to dig a bit deeper.
Erin (she/her) (05:54):
Yeah, thanks Jade.
And
I wanna come back to howyou started your story.
How do you, how have you found this senseof belonging in the work that you're
doing now, as you think about that littleboy, many years ago, to where you are now?
David (he/him) (06:08):
I think most of my career, and most of my personal journey too, has not been about
belonging, but an absence of belonging,
Erin (she/her) (06:15):
mm-hmm.
David (he/him) (06:16):
And, um, if I'm honest, a lot of that still remains.
I think that the workis sort of aspirational.
My work is less about, um, trying tomake better humans because I, I know that
I am a human with a lot of, uh, my ownchallenges and flaws and shortcomings,
but how to create, sort of, and curate thekinds of spaces, environments that allow
(06:37):
people to rise to their best self, right?
Whatever that means, you know?
Erin (she/her) (06:41):
mm-hmm.
David (he/him) (06:42):
Ironically enough some of my work also was in the child welfare space.
And all of the statistics, all ofthe data shows across the country
and across the province that havingbeen involved in the care system
puts so many young people atrisk of a whole host of poor
outcomes later on in their life.
And the antidote to all of thoseexperiences of disconnection is
(07:04):
always about how to create rightrelationship, how to bring them into
right relationship, how to connectthese folks who've historically
experienced adversity and disconnection.
And so while that's true in thechild welfare space, and for
those who move through that, Ithink it's true for the world too.
Jade (they/them) (07:19):
Right.
David (he/him) (07:20):
A lot of my work is about trying to create those kinds
of
environments that allow us to feellike we're in right relationship with
one another, give the tools to be inright relationship with one another
and to work through some of thechallenges that keep us from being in
relationship and feeling like we belong.
You know?
Erin (she/her) (07:36):
I hear that.
David (he/him) And I do that from not like a, like um,
like a lofty place, right?
Like, like, it's, it's,it's not like, oh, I'm at the
mountaintop and I'm now going tospeak down to those in the valley.
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm inthe mix and the mire too.
And I've seen how a sense of notbelonging, a sense of not being in right
relationship, how that's impacted me andcontinues to impact me in some areas.
(07:57):
And I want to have less of that.
mm-hmm
David (he/him) (08:00):
So it's almost like doing for others
what you'd like done for you. Creatingthe things for others that you would
like created for yourself. And Iwanna raise that because I think it's
so important for us to be honest aboutwhat motivates us in the work that we do.
Cause too often, those of us whoare in the helping profession or
in facilitation, training, consultingwork, it's often about others, right?
Like I have to bring somethingto these others, rather than
saying no, I'm in it too.
Erin (she/her) (08:21):
Hmm
David (he/him) (08:22):
You know,
had I been some Huxtable kid, Ilikely would not have ended
up doing this kind of work.
I would've had a very different outcome.
Likely. What brings me to this work ismy own wounds. And the quicker that we're
able to acknowledge our humanity in thatthe better that we'll be able to be in
the work, cuz then there's a certainamount of humility and grace, you know?
I literally had to have it tattooed on myarm. You probably can't see it, but grace
(08:46):
over everything. For me, grace is not
this sort of religious thing.
I think when people hear the wordgrace, they think of it in a sort
of religious context, but I thinkof grace as the space that we give
ourselves and by extension each otherto be fully human. The missteps, the
mistakes, the misspeaks and the messy -and trust that people can start again.
You know?
Erin (she/her) (09:05):
yes.
David (he/him) (09:06):
And so, my work is about giving opportunities and creating spaces
for people to rise to that occasionand to start again, because I was
given that. And I'm continuallygiven that, you know? So, yeah.
Your question was about belonging.
Erin (she/her) (09:19):
Yes.
And, and you're, you're now addingall of these dimensions to that word.
And do you know what's interestingfor me in hearing grace? There's
such beauty to that word.
I think that's the perfect way todescribe this idea of humility.
How often do we hear, you know, no one'sperfect or we can't seek perfection.
(09:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get it.
I get it.
I get it.
But humility to really understand thatwe might make a mistake, and guess what,
we actually probably will make a ton ofmistakes, but having humility to learn
from that becomes part of the journey.And, so I'll turn it over to Jade.
Jade (they/them) (09:56):
Yeah, this discussion of, humility, humanness, it's really connecting
and resonating for me as well.
And though different stories, I alsohave a background in social work, also
because of my family of origin. So I feelyou in that, and connect in that regard.
The word that really also stood outfor me, that you said was disconnection.
(10:17):
Where do you see thatdisconnection coming from?
Like, certainly I could assume someanswers, but I'd love to hear from you.
Like, what creates disconnection, whichis creating barriers for people to feel
that sense of belonging, for yourselfor for others that you've worked with.
David (he/him) (10:34):
I think it depends, but if you're thinking about it from like a trauma-informed
space, like most of us developed ourfirst sense of how we are oriented in
the world in our homes, and with thepeople that brought us into the world,
and a lot of us experienced our first sortof sense of disconnection right there.
Now that's not to blame or shame.
(10:54):
It's just to say like, ourwounds are early wounds.
And that can weave its way throughall of our relationships with others,
with ourselves, and with the world.
And for many of us who'veexperienced adversity and
childhood challenge and trauma,
there's often a constant sense ofdisconnection, constant sense of not
being in right relationship with others.
And for some of us and myself includeda deep desire for, uh, relationship.
(11:18):
And
it's funny, I was speaking to some youngpeople that I'm doing some work with, and
one of the things that two of the youngpeople that I was speaking to shared with
me was how when they were younger andin the child welfare space with their
foster and adopted families, how oftenthey found themselves at odds with their
(11:40):
carers. And, in a lot of ways, thembeing at odds with their carers was
a way of trying to belong. In thisweird, um, strangely antagonistic, but
there's sense in the nonsense to it.
Right?
One of the young people who was sharingwith me, you know, I was testing my carers,
(12:00):
I was testing my foster carers,
I was testing my adopted parents tosee if they'd really, really invested
in being there for me, if theyreally were in this for the long haul.
And so I showed up as my most difficultself, but underneath that was this
desire to be in family with them.
You know, I don't need you, I don'twant to be there. I, you
know, come closer, come closer.
And so, yeah, I think fora lot of us, our sense of
(12:21):
disconnect began really early.
And for those of us who are familiarwith like group processes, like many
of us are working out our primarygroup experiences, which oftentimes
is our families or communities oforigin in these other groups spaces.
And so many of us are working outthe stuff that happened in our
home, or didn't happen in our home,in our intimate relationships,
in our interpersonal relationships,in our professional spaces, and
(12:44):
wondering sometimes why it'snot always working, you know?
Jade (they/them) (12:47):
Totally.
David (he/him) (12:48):
And so go back to the source.
Maybe this isn't about your boss,
maybe this is about your mom. Maybethis isn't about your partner,
maybe this is about your dad.
That's a, that's a wholeother conversation.
Jade (they/them) (13:02):
But a really important one.
I used to do youth work with youthwho used substances, used drugs,
and really at the end of the day,they were looking for that connection,
they were looking for that belonging, evenwhen they were the most confrontational
with the people that were caring for them.
And then I think that translates alsointo how equity deserving groups
(13:26):
treat ourselves, and treat each other.
Where we have experienced that,disconnection, that lack of
belonging, when we're young and thenthat translates into how we treat
others within our own communities
when we're trying to create thatspace for ourselves and for others
who are like us. So I'm curiousif there's any other pieces that
(13:49):
you've seen, worked really well tobring some of these concepts forward?
David (he/him) (13:55):
I'm thinking of Kai Cheng Thom.
She wrote a really great article thatI was such a fan of some years ago.
Kai Cheng Thom is a clinician and awriter, a trans woman of color,
and she wrote this article some yearsago called Why are queer people so mean?
Jade (they/them) (14:09):
Hmm.
David (he/him) (14:09):
And that rubbed some people the wrong way when they saw that article,
but I loved it.
And what I thought was so excellentthat she was able to do was to
explore how our own experiences oftrauma as LGBTQ spectrum folks has
influenced and informed even theways in which we attempt to create Community.
And how that shows up in social justicecircles, how that shows up in social
(14:32):
work spaces, and how even those ofus with all the right quote unquote
language and all the right quoteunquote politics can be so horrible with
each other.
Jade (they/them) (14:43):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (14:44):
Under the guises of community building, under the guises of inclusion and equity and
under the guises of all those things.
And why there are so many folks who indroves are leaving quote unquote community
because of this feeling of disconnection.
Jade (they/them) (14:57):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (14:58):
There can be a tendency, myself included, for us to sort of drink our own Kool-Aid
and forget that, yes, you read a couplebooks or you went to a couple lectures or
you attend such and such protests, butthat doesn't exempt you from being human
Jade (they/them) (15:11):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (15:12):
You, like everybody else, showed up on this planet without your consent,
kicking and screaming. And you, likeeverybody else on this planet, is gonna
go out again, without your consent,
sometimes kicking , and screaming.
And so humility isactually about perspective.
And so when you can hold thatperspective of recognizing that
you, like everybody else, are on thisrollercoaster ride, that you didn't ask
to be on, trying to figure it out midride, the ups, the downs, it allows
(15:36):
you then back to this idea of grace.
It allows you to be more graceful withnot only yourself, but other people.
I think that there's been an over-emphasisover the years in this "community
first". Let's build for community let'sdo for community without acknowledging
the ways that communities are builtthrough individuals who come together.
And if you don't figure out theindividual and the small groups,
(15:59):
then of course you're not gonnafigure out the bigger groups.
Jade (they/them) (16:01):
Right
David (he/him) (16:02):
When I was 14 years old and coming out of the closet and finding myself, it was in
the arms of quote unquote community thatI found respite, that I found connection.
I think many people have that story, youknow, that first time in the village or
that first time saying the words Iam gay, I'm lesbian, I'm trans, whatever.
And that feeling of, ah, finally mytribe, you know? And I've also seen
(16:25):
and heard a lot of people in andoutside of community share how that
experience has dissipated over theyears, how the realities of community,
the difficulties and the challengeof communities, how that shows up too.
And so I do think that the conversationsabout the ways in which our individual
and group level traumas can impedethe very world that we're trying
to co-create together, you know?
Erin (she/her) (16:45):
Absolutely
David (he/him) (16:46):
And so why is it that all of us who speak and preach belonging
have such difficulty being inright relationship with each other.
Who have all the right words to say, andare constantly at odds with each other
on and offline about a myriad of thingsfrom the biggest to the smallest, and
why we are people that are so committedsupposedly to abolition of systems of
(17:10):
oppression and policing, are so quickto police and abolish each other.
And so I, I'm alwaysvery curious about that.
I think it's a moment that we're inright now and we're having to contend with.
Jade (they/them) (17:25):
I would agree.
I've seen this very consistently throughour communities and it's a real challenge.
I mean, I know for myself, I was thevery, like, gung-ho angry activist,
and the way that I interacted withpeople wasn't always bringing them in.
Wasn't always producing space.
(17:45):
And we had another guest, DeepakKashyap, who talked about moving from
being a social justice warrior to asocial justice worker. Not to say
that sometimes we don't need warriors,cuz sometimes we do in my opinion.
So I'm curious
how we can move through some ofthese pieces and move towards
these futures that are morewelcoming, that bring more space.
(18:08):
So, Erin, do you want totalk about the future space?
Erin (she/her) (18:12):
I do.
I'm going to share a quote
that's not gonna be word for word, butI'm reminded of it often from the
book Hood Feminism by Mikki Kendall.
And she talks about this concept of
having to exist in the worldas it currently is, not in
how we wish it would be.
And there's so much in there for meabout this future state. And it's
(18:36):
gonna take us a while to get there.
You know, it pains me even to sayit's gonna take us a while, but
it's not gonna happen overnight.
So David, as we think about thefuture, what are we working towards?
David (he/him) (18:48):
When I think about
what I'm working towards,
I think it's changed.
And I like the quote that you offered up.
I'd love to sit with the original quoteitself, but what it's drawing
to mind is this conversation
I remember James Baldwin havingand watching this lecture he and
Malcolm X had had. Malcolm X had had someideas around what would be in
the best interest of Black people.
And I think for him it was basedin sort of religious ideology.
(19:09):
But one of the things that James hadsaid was, you know, Malcolm, I don't
think Black people need any more myth.
What Black people need is thecourage to face reality as it is.
Erin (she/her) (19:19):
Hmm
David (he/him) (19:20):
And
I remember hearing that lecture, and I wasliving in England at the time, and that
landed for me like a really powerful way.
Erin (she/her) (19:27):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (19:28):
And, you know, I'm a big meditator.
That's a part of my own practice.
And a lot of meditation is aboutlearning to just be with what is.
Not to resist it, but to be in wholerelationship with life as it is.
Erin (she/her) (19:44):
mm-hmm
David (he/him) (19:44):
That you can't change anything that you can't be with, you can't change
anything that you can't sit in.
And so the way that the work for melooks different now than it might have,
15 years ago, or 20 years ago, when I wasstarting out is I'm less interested in
having the world conform to this ideaof what I see as whatever in my head
(20:06):
and have me be able to recognize the worldfor what it is and work with what it is.
Now
that doesn't mean accepting things thatare unacceptable, but it means, and
this goes back to this humility thing,
like recognize where you are in thefull spectrum of life. The insignificance
of you, and yet the significance of you.
Erin (she/her) (20:28):
Yep.
David (he/him) (20:29):
I don't know what a perfect world would look like because I'm an imperfect thing.
And because the machine itselfis imperfect, any of its
computations will be imperfect.
So my work now I think is, rather thanhow can I get Erin and Jade on my page?
It's how can I find the places whereErin and Jade and I are in accord,
Erin (she/her) (20:48):
I love that.
Tell me more about that
David (he/him) (20:51):
How can I build bridges?
How can I be in right relationship,even across difference?
There's so much going on.
One
of the things I've beenhaving to ask myself and other
colleagues in this space is
there's a million and one EDIprofessionals everywhere.
We've been doing allthese inclusion projects,
and it's been going likethis for the last 15 years.
If this is working, have we producedthe outcomes that we've set out to do?
(21:14):
And if we haven't do we needto go back to the drawing board
around what it is that we're doing?
Erin (she/her) (21:19):
I hear that.
David (he/him) (21:20):
Now
I know that that's not necessarilyeverybody's jam to hear, but I
think that there's a value inbuilding more bridges, you know?
Jade (they/them) (21:27):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (21:27):
And so I'm really interested in, and I think my time in, my mediation
program what it really taught me was how dowe create spaces to have people across
different come together? And, andright now, given all the things that
we're in so many culture wars, right?
Like there's so many culture warshappening right now, concurrently all
of them, all at once, right? Aroundrace, around gender, around religion,
around class, around..., and everybody'sat odds, and everybody has the answer,
(21:52):
but very few of us are engaged increating more opportunities for
conversation. And like real conversationthat sometimes will make us uncomfortable.
Sometimes you're gonna have to sit acrossfrom somebody who sees the world in a
completely different way than you do, andthat doesn't make them a horrible person.
It means that we have to find thein. And not the in for you the wise
(22:12):
one to get into the ignorant one,but how can two wise people find a
place of commonality, despite thedifferences, and despite the different
perspectives, and all that other jazz.
Erin (she/her) (22:24):
Wow. You are speaking my language.
I love this so much because we'renot asking people to understand
every single part of us.
We're trying to
create the space, like you'retalking about, to at least just
be able to connect as humans.
And, you know, I, I'm pausing and, andreflecting a little bit here because
(22:45):
you asked a really powerful question.
Have we figured it out?
Have we actually createdmore inclusive spaces?
Have people found a sense of belonging asthese organizations work in these spaces?
And, to be honest, I don'tknow if we necessarily have.
David (he/him) (23:04):
And I would gently push against the idea that we are all trying to do this.
Cause I actually don't know ifwe are all trying to do that.
Erin (she/her) (23:10):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (23:10):
I think some of us aren't there.
I think some of us have notyet gotten to the place where
there's even the possibility for abridging of the divides with other folks.
Erin (she/her) (23:20):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (23:20):
There are many of us who can't even be in the room with people who might
see the world differently than us.
So I don't know if that's all of ouraim, but I think, given everything
that's going on, it should bemost of our aims at this time.
Erin (she/her) (23:31):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (23:32):
Like, there's no other option.
It's this or civil warsand more tribalism
and more... like we have to beable to cultivate an ability to
endure it long enough to hear,to be, with difference, you know?
Erin (she/her) (23:45):
Definitely
Jade (they/them) (23:46):
Agreed.
Tell me more about that.
David (he/him) (23:49):
Some years ago, I was doing a training around anti-racism.
And there was a gentleman inthis particular training, a
racialized white person, and
he was just not jivingwith some of the things.
, . And I continued to engage him.
You know? I made intentionally to makesure he felt , even though this wasn't
his jam, that he felt like this space wasfor him, that I'm not here to wag a finger
(24:12):
and tell you that you're a horrible humanbeing, cuz that's not, I don't believe it.
I'm not that guy.
You want a facilitatorwho does that? Find them.
I don't do that.
And what was so amazing for me isthat at some point in the training,
he ended up sharing a story.
His family had come as newcomersand they had lived in small
town Ontario. And they were theforeigners in this community. And they
often didn't have a lot of money,
(24:33):
they didn't usually goout to the mall or to restaurants.
But one, one day his mother had savedup enough money to take the family
out to McDonald's. And he remembersas a young person following his
mother and his siblings out to go toMcDonald's and watching her struggle
to count her change and communicatewith the waiter to make her order at
McDonald's. And a group of young menbehind them began to make fun, right?
(24:54):
Making fun of these foreigners.
And he's telling this story,and he he's sharing the story.
And he talks about looking up at hismother's face and seeing the deflation.
She had started out this conversationreally proud, you know, I'm here, taking
my kids to McDonald's, and by the end,she was feeling like a piece of, of crap
because these folks had made fun ofher. And so I said to him, I said, do you
(25:15):
remember what that felt like to watch yourmom, and to see the deflation and to feel
that? And as he was sharing some of thethings that were coming up for him, I
said, so now back to the conversation wewere having about some of the experience
of racialized folks, can you see perhapsthat connection between that experience
of disconnection and deflation thatyour mother experienced and the ones that
are held by many other folks, includingracialized and other minority folks.
(25:39):
And it was this aha moment.
Now, I wasn't trying to rubhis nose in anything, I wasn't
trying to shame him or blame him.
Everybody
can get this stuff,
if we approach them as whole human beings,and not as problems to be fixed by us,
the benevolent other, or the angry warriorwith the picket fence ready to bash
anybody over the head who doesn't seethings in the exact same way that we do.
(26:00):
I love to have conversationswith people who are not like me.
I love to have conversations with peoplewho, in a lot of ways would vexate my spirit.
And I love to have those kinds ofconversations that have me walking away,
finding something, even if it's a kernelof truth and connection that other.
I don't need to like you to hear you.
I don't need to agree with you togive you an opportunity to speak.
Erin (she/her) (26:21):
mhm.
David (he/him) (26:22):
And as long as you're not going out of your way to cause me actual harm, I'm
open, I'm open. Not only diversity ofbodies, but diversity of perspectives.
Erin (she/her) (26:34):
Wow. Everything you're talking about makes me think about the
bump against how might be told
we need to show up inside of acorporate environment - that we have
to fit into a box that we have tobe a certain way to do our work.
And what a weird concept that is.
Aren't we the same person
right now as we're having thisconversation as the person that shows
(26:56):
up inside of a corporate environment?
. David (he/him): I've been thinking about this a lot.
A lot of companies, private and publicsector, have begun filling slots and
checking boxes for queers, for racializedfolks, for women, for whatever.
I think that there is valueto representation, but beyond
representation is having meaningfulintegration and collaboration
(27:17):
of people across differences.
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (27:20):
I don't want checkbox relationships.
I don't want, okay,
now it's Pride Month and noweverything in the office is
gonna be sprinkled fairy dust.
And I, I know for some other folks, thisnext statement will challenge them. I
don't even need your celebration.
I don't necessarily need that.
I would like to see a place wherehowever we are, and however we show up
(27:40):
in whatever boxes we tick are so regular
it doesn't even register.
Jade (they/them) (27:44):
Exactly.
David (he/him) (27:45):
I talk about this often in the ABR space or anti-Black racism space. As a bit of a
sort of reflex against anti-Black racism,many of us sort of took up this Black
magic, Black excellence mantra, right.
Where we're gonna be awesome all the time.
And many of us have seen ina lot of our communities
there's been this sort of deificationof all things minority. And what
(28:07):
happens to all of the things thatwe lift up and exalt? They fall
the ground, because they're human.
Erin (she/her) (28:12):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (28:12):
And I'm like, actually to me, the win would be being able to be mediocre.
Being able to be Black and mediocre.Regular, just regular. And that
not to, to, to elicit any kind ofwhatever. That I don't need to be
magical and excellent at all times.
I just need to be regular. Good enough.
Because that's, to me,the sign of true inclusion.
(28:33):
And so I'd like a place where the transstaff member, it doesn't even register.
It's not even a thing.
It doesn't even have to be a conversation.
That the Black colleague,not even a thing.
That the whatever, fill in the blank onwhatever, it doesn't even register. It's
as normal and as every day as anythingelse. That to me is the win. Rather
(28:53):
than these performative celebrationsof us that have been co-opted and
corporatized, and everybody's, you know,turns their screens a particular color,
and that's the demonstrationof their allyship.
You don't need to drink my Kool-Aid.
You just need to see me and myfullness and be okay with that
and not have to other me, or moveme out of existence, you know?
Erin (she/her) (29:11):
Yeah.
Allow space for everyone, right?
David (he/him) (29:14):
Everyone.
Erin (she/her) (29:15):
Yeah, that's a beautiful image to create and to work towards and
pull back on your word of grace.
We're gonna have to giveourselves grace as we navigate
that idea and figure it out.
Um, so I know we're gonna, we're goingto I'm I'm pre-warning you cuz we're
gonna get into rapid fire, but I will,I will read the quote from Mikki. She
(29:35):
says, "We all have to engage with the worldas it is, not as we might wish it to be"
And so
we wanna get to this future state,but we also exist in the now, and
how do we all create the spaceto show up and be ourselves?
And I think you've reallyshared some great insights
(29:56):
with us. So thank you so much.
And Jade's gonna lead us into a bitof rapid fire, so I hope you're ready.
Jade (they/them) (30:05):
Let's get into the rapid fire.
So if you could recommendone book, what would it be?
David (he/him) (30:10):
I Hope We Choose Love by Kai Cheng Thom.
Jade (they/them) (30:13):
I fully agree and I'm in love with that book as well.
Erin (she/her) (30:17):
It's
now
going on my list.
So next question.
What brings you joy,
no matter what?
David (he/him) (30:23):
Having people over who wouldn't normally be in the same room together,
but are only brought together becauseyou know, they know me. I'm the king
of standing quietly in the corner ofmy own party and watching the room.
Because I just love the sound of peoplewho wouldn't normally speak, speaking.
Erin (she/her) (30:38):
I love that.
Jade (they/them) (30:38):
It's beautiful.
So what's your theme song for today?
David (he/him) (30:43):
So I was thinking about belonging and, and I thought of a song that I did and do love.
I will forewarn that there'sa bit nepotism in there.
It's a song that my nephew JamesBaley has written, called My Family.
And in the song, he talks aboutthis idea of feeling disconnected
and feeling alone. Looking forlove and surrounded by sadness,
he says, and findingcommunity and finding family.
(31:05):
And I felt like given thisidea of belonging, that was sort
of apt to call into the space.
So, My Family by James Baley.
Erin (she/her) (31:13):
I love that.
Well, it's actually maybe resonantof our next question. Who is
someone that inspires you inhow they create belonging, but
doesn't receive enough credit?
David (he/him) (31:23):
So I would say Sylvia Delgado. Really great facilitator, trainer,
educator. In fact, she was sortof the inspiration for me to go
back to school and, and do my MSW.
Kai Cheng Thom gets a lotof nods, but I'll nod her again,
especially now a lot of her work isfocused on restorative practice , and
supporting people through conflict.
And my now friend Aisha Akanbi, havingsort of the difficult conversations
(31:46):
about how we can have differentrelationship in communities of justice.
Yeah, those are the three.
Jade (they/them) (31:52):
All powerful community workers who bring a lot to the space and
the communities that they serve.
So to close out with our lastquestion, what is one call to action
you'd like from our listeners?
David (he/him) (32:05):
Have a conversation
with
someone that you would never have aconversation with. Read a magazine
or a newspaper from across the fence.
Go to a part of the city that youwould normally not go to, just
as a thought experiment.
You know, if, if you read the TorontoStar, pick up the Toronto Sun. If you read
The Globe and Mail, pick up the National Post.If you live in the west side of the
(32:27):
city, go to the east side of city. Havea conversation with that colleague that
you would think is completely unlike you,
and see what happens.
Jade (they/them) (32:36):
That power of making that connection actually resonates with something
I read this morning in one ofthe books that I was reading.
David (he/him) (32:42):
What book are you reading Jade?
Jade (they/them) (32:43):
uh, I am reading currently Dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
David (he/him) (32:48):
Oh, I love Brene Brown.
Jade (they/them) (32:52):
She comes up in every episode of this podcast
it seems like.
Everybody who listens to thispodcast, I really hope that they
take up your call to action andreally put themselves out there.
And
I think, especially those ofus who are white, we like
to say, oh, well I read it.
I read it and now I'm done.
(33:12):
And so I'm going to encouragepeople to do more than read it, but
also they can go read it as well,
in addition. So, so thankfulfor you being here today.
My goodness, Erin, what aconversation we had today.
Erin (she/her) (33:28):
Yeah,
wow.
What a powerful conversation
with David.
He did leave us with so manygreat ideas for our listeners
to think about, because,
as practitioners, we can become socomfortable with those that are in our
sphere, the sphere that are willing
to listen,
that they're on the samejourney that we are on.
But if we're truly
going to make a difference inthis world, I do think it's
(33:50):
connecting across difference.
I do think it's hearing what otherpeople have to say, creating the space
so they can hear what we have to say too.
But if we just keep havingthe same conversation
with people
who are on that same journey,then I don't know if we're
actually gonna create that change.
Jade (they/them) (34:06):
I agree.
We have to be connecting withpeople who are not on the journey,
who, you know, sometimes maycause us some discomfort too.
But if we're not doing that, are we trulydoing the work of creating belonging?
Erin (she/her) (34:20):
Absolutely.
And that's our challenge to ourselves,but a challenge to our listeners
as well as they uncover belonging.
Jade (they/them) (34:32):
Thank
you so much for tuning in.
We hope that
you
enjoyed, learned and uncovereddeeper belonging with us.
Connect with us on LinkedIn, andlet us know what part of today's
episode resonated most with you. Many
thanks to our production team:
editor,
Shawn Ahmed,
communications, Luis Augusto Nobre,
(34:54):
and
production support,
Connor Pion.
We'd
also like to thank and share abrief message from our sponsor
Erin Davis Co.
Erin (she/her) (35:04):
Today's episode is sponsored by Erin Davis Co.
.
As the founder and Lead InclusionStrategist, Erin Davis brings her
award-winning expertise, global thoughtleadership, and unique ability to
bravely and authentically challenge
the status quo to help people feel agreater sense of connection and belonging.
Ultimately, Erin Davis Co. supportsorganizations on their diversity,
(35:27):
equity, and accessibility journey tocreate a more inclusive workplace.
One conversation at a time.
To learn more about Erin DavisCo. visit erindavisco.ca
Jade (they/them) (35:40):
And of course, most of all, we'd like to
thank you
for joining us today. For more informationabout today's guest, links referenced,
and a transcript, check out our shownotes, which are available on the
Pride at Work Canada's website. Subscribeor follow wherever you get your
podcasts, including Apple Podcasts,Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and more.
(36:04):
Join us for our next episode, where wewill be joined by Jake Stika, co-founder
and Executive Director of Next Gen Men.
We
look forward to you joining us next timeas we continue to uncover belonging.
There's a million and one EDI professionals everywhere.
(00:02):
We've been doing allthese inclusion projects,
and it's been going on likethis for the last 15 years.
If this is working, have we producedthe outcomes that we've set out to do?
And if we haven't, do we needto go back to the drawing board
around what it is that we're doing?
Jade (they/them) (00:18):
I'm Jade Pichette.
(they/them)
Erin (she/her) (00:20):
and I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns
she and her.
Jade (they/them) (00:24):
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging,
Erin (She/her) (00:26):
a podcast that explores the professional and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade (they/them) (00:32):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Erin, I'm so
excited to introduce youtoday to David Lewis-Peart.
Erin (she/her) (00:42):
I'm excited as well. This is so fun for us because every episode
one of us gets to meet someone new
and so that's for me this episodeand meeting David and hearing more
about his journey and his work.
Jade (they/them) (00:54):
David Lewis-Peart (he/him) has worked in a number of roles - adjunct professor,
community worker, consultant, corporatetrainer, writer, and playwright.
He completed graduate studies atYork University in Toronto, where
his area of research was on communityinterventions and Black gay male youth.
(01:15):
He holds a diploma in Human ServicesCounseling - mental health and addictions,
post-graduate training in AlternativeDispute Resolution and Mediation,
has certification in Life SkillsCoaching, and additional training
in Facilitating Restorative Circlesand Family Group Conferencing.
He has previously been a member offaculty in both the Child and Youth
(01:36):
Care and Social Service Work programsin Toronto, Brampton and Oakville.
David has been a founding lead ona number of community service and
arts-based initiatives, supportingBlack and other groups, including
work with Sunset Service Toronto
and We Other Sons, a queer men of colortheater arts collective through Buddies
in Bad Times Theater. More recently,David speaks on and delivers training
(02:00):
around working across difference andrestorative practice, and has regularly
contributed to publications such as CBCArts, Huffington Post Canada, ByBlacks
and Global News on topics of race,identity, masculinity, and wellbeing.
He is presently undergoing graduatestudy with a focus on Indigenous trauma
(02:20):
and resiliency at the University ofToronto's Faculty of Social Work.
And currently he's calling in fromTkarón:to or Toronto, and I'm
grateful to have you here and
also just to see your face, cuz it'sbeen, uh, I think the last time we
actually saw each other in person wasthe Parliament of World Religions, in 2018,
which was, uh, quite the experienceI have to say, but so glad that you're
(02:43):
able to make it with us today andyou're spending the time with us.
David (he/him) (02:46):
Thanks for having me Jade.
Thanks for having me Erin.
Erin (she/her) (02:50):
Hi, David.
So excited to hear yourstory. Just hearing your bio
there are so many themes and topicsthat we could discuss today, but
I wanna open up the conversationand just ask: how did you get into
this work, and how did you end up inthe diversity and inclusion space?
David (he/him) (03:07):
So, I feel like my story is just as long as my bio and
it's a bit of a winding road.
I got into social work because I was akid from a home that had fallen apart,
and I had ended up in the care system.
And I had been helped through somereally amazing people in my life. And
some not-so-amazing people in my life.
And I wanted to do this work becauseI had been impacted by it too.
Erin (she/her) (03:29):
Hmm
David (he/him) (03:30):
And I ended up going into a counseling program at a
vocational college in Toronto.
And while I was there, I had theopportunity to get involved into
some work with an organization calledthe Metro Action Committee on Violence
Against Women and Children (METRAC).
And for those who are in the know METRACwas, and I'm sure still is, a bit
(03:51):
of a hub for a lot of thought leadersand activists. Many many, many, many,
many, mostly women who've gone on tocontribute to this EDI space
and doing work and activism. And it waswhile I was there that I really sort
of honed this interest in the work ofeducating and training and facilitating.
And that was a really great experiencefor me. And when I had completed
(04:14):
college, I had gone off into the world,
I was working in the HIV/AIDSsector, but just prior to that, I
think it was in my late teens,
I had ended up at a talk at theUniversity of Toronto. And there
was a gentleman, who was giving a talk,uh, by the name of Douglas Stewart.
And Douglas Stewart is a quite wellknown Afro-Caribbean Canadian
community builder, and an activist,
(04:36):
and now a consultant and trainer.
And, I saw him, you know, in mylate teens and I see this handsome
older man with dreadlocks commandingthe space in such a beautiful way.
And I remember thinking, God, he'sso handsome, he's so articulate,
and you know, when I'm older, I reallywanna do some of what he's doing.
And as fate would have it, some yearslater, I'm working at Black CAP, the
(04:57):
organization that he helped found andwas the first executive director for,
and he invited me to support him on someconsulting project with a children's
mental health agency in the city.
And that was my first opportunityto do consulting work and
training and education work.
And it went swimmingly.
And that was sort of my toe intothe water of the sort of EDI space.
Jade (they/them) (05:19):
I find it really interesting cuz Douglas intersects with my story as well.
He helped me get to where I am interms of my consulting as well.
If anybody wants to learn about DouglasStewart, his current company is Competence
Consultants, and we'll throw it in theshow notes, as well as METRAC, which is
such a great organization that is stilldoing really, really amazing work.
(05:42):
So David, you've started to mentionthe people and organizations that
have shaped you, but I know wewant to explore more of that story.
So I'm gonna throw it overto Erin to dig a bit deeper.
Erin (she/her) (05:54):
Yeah, thanks Jade.
And
I wanna come back to howyou started your story.
How do you, how have you found this senseof belonging in the work that you're
doing now, as you think about that littleboy, many years ago, to where you are now?
David (he/him) (06:08):
I think most of my career, and most of my personal journey too, has not been about
belonging, but an absence of belonging,
Erin (she/her) (06:15):
mm-hmm.
David (he/him) (06:16):
And, um, if I'm honest, a lot of that still remains.
I think that the workis sort of aspirational.
My work is less about, um, trying tomake better humans because I, I know that
I am a human with a lot of, uh, my ownchallenges and flaws and shortcomings,
but how to create, sort of, and curate thekinds of spaces, environments that allow
(06:37):
people to rise to their best self, right?
Whatever that means, you know?
Erin (she/her) (06:41):
mm-hmm.
David (he/him) (06:42):
Ironically enough some of my work also was in the child welfare space.
And all of the statistics, all ofthe data shows across the country
and across the province that havingbeen involved in the care system
puts so many young people atrisk of a whole host of poor
outcomes later on in their life.
And the antidote to all of thoseexperiences of disconnection is
(07:04):
always about how to create rightrelationship, how to bring them into
right relationship, how to connectthese folks who've historically
experienced adversity and disconnection.
And so while that's true in thechild welfare space, and for
those who move through that, Ithink it's true for the world too.
Jade (they/them) (07:19):
Right.
David (he/him) (07:20):
A lot of my work is about trying to create those kinds
of
environments that allow us to feellike we're in right relationship with
one another, give the tools to be inright relationship with one another
and to work through some of thechallenges that keep us from being in
relationship and feeling like we belong.
You know?
Erin (she/her) (07:36):
I hear that.
David (he/him) And I do that from not like a, like um,
like a lofty place, right?
Like, like, it's, it's,it's not like, oh, I'm at the
mountaintop and I'm now going tospeak down to those in the valley.
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm inthe mix and the mire too.
And I've seen how a sense of notbelonging, a sense of not being in right
relationship, how that's impacted me andcontinues to impact me in some areas.
(07:57):
And I want to have less of that.
mm-hmm
David (he/him) (08:00):
So it's almost like doing for others
what you'd like done for you. Creatingthe things for others that you would
like created for yourself. And Iwanna raise that because I think it's
so important for us to be honest aboutwhat motivates us in the work that we do.
Cause too often, those of us whoare in the helping profession or
in facilitation, training, consultingwork, it's often about others, right?
Like I have to bring somethingto these others, rather than
saying no, I'm in it too.
Erin (she/her) (08:21):
Hmm
David (he/him) (08:22):
You know,
had I been some Huxtable kid, Ilikely would not have ended
up doing this kind of work.
I would've had a very different outcome.
Likely. What brings me to this work ismy own wounds. And the quicker that we're
able to acknowledge our humanity in thatthe better that we'll be able to be in
the work, cuz then there's a certainamount of humility and grace, you know?
I literally had to have it tattooed on myarm. You probably can't see it, but grace
(08:46):
over everything. For me, grace is not
this sort of religious thing.
I think when people hear the wordgrace, they think of it in a sort
of religious context, but I thinkof grace as the space that we give
ourselves and by extension each otherto be fully human. The missteps, the
mistakes, the misspeaks and the messy -and trust that people can start again.
You know?
Erin (she/her) (09:05):
yes.
David (he/him) (09:06):
And so, my work is about giving opportunities and creating spaces
for people to rise to that occasionand to start again, because I was
given that. And I'm continuallygiven that, you know? So, yeah.
Your question was about belonging.
Erin (she/her) (09:19):
Yes.
And, and you're, you're now addingall of these dimensions to that word.
And do you know what's interestingfor me in hearing grace? There's
such beauty to that word.
I think that's the perfect way todescribe this idea of humility.
How often do we hear, you know, no one'sperfect or we can't seek perfection.
(09:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get it.
I get it.
I get it.
But humility to really understand thatwe might make a mistake, and guess what,
we actually probably will make a ton ofmistakes, but having humility to learn
from that becomes part of the journey.And, so I'll turn it over to Jade.
Jade (they/them) (09:56):
Yeah, this discussion of, humility, humanness, it's really connecting
and resonating for me as well.
And though different stories, I alsohave a background in social work, also
because of my family of origin. So I feelyou in that, and connect in that regard.
The word that really also stood outfor me, that you said was disconnection.
(10:17):
Where do you see thatdisconnection coming from?
Like, certainly I could assume someanswers, but I'd love to hear from you.
Like, what creates disconnection, whichis creating barriers for people to feel
that sense of belonging, for yourselfor for others that you've worked with.
David (he/him) (10:34):
I think it depends, but if you're thinking about it from like a trauma-informed
space, like most of us developed ourfirst sense of how we are oriented in
the world in our homes, and with thepeople that brought us into the world,
and a lot of us experienced our first sortof sense of disconnection right there.
Now that's not to blame or shame.
(10:54):
It's just to say like, ourwounds are early wounds.
And that can weave its way throughall of our relationships with others,
with ourselves, and with the world.
And for many of us who'veexperienced adversity and
childhood challenge and trauma,
there's often a constant sense ofdisconnection, constant sense of not
being in right relationship with others.
And for some of us and myself includeda deep desire for, uh, relationship.
(11:18):
And
it's funny, I was speaking to some youngpeople that I'm doing some work with, and
one of the things that two of the youngpeople that I was speaking to shared with
me was how when they were younger andin the child welfare space with their
foster and adopted families, how oftenthey found themselves at odds with their
(11:40):
carers. And, in a lot of ways, thembeing at odds with their carers was
a way of trying to belong. In thisweird, um, strangely antagonistic, but
there's sense in the nonsense to it.
Right?
One of the young people who was sharingwith me, you know, I was testing my carers,
(12:00):
I was testing my foster carers,
I was testing my adopted parents tosee if they'd really, really invested
in being there for me, if theyreally were in this for the long haul.
And so I showed up as my most difficultself, but underneath that was this
desire to be in family with them.
You know, I don't need you, I don'twant to be there. I, you
know, come closer, come closer.
And so, yeah, I think fora lot of us, our sense of
(12:21):
disconnect began really early.
And for those of us who are familiarwith like group processes, like many
of us are working out our primarygroup experiences, which oftentimes
is our families or communities oforigin in these other groups spaces.
And so many of us are working outthe stuff that happened in our
home, or didn't happen in our home,in our intimate relationships,
in our interpersonal relationships,in our professional spaces, and
(12:44):
wondering sometimes why it'snot always working, you know?
Jade (they/them) (12:47):
Totally.
David (he/him) (12:48):
And so go back to the source.
Maybe this isn't about your boss,
maybe this is about your mom. Maybethis isn't about your partner,
maybe this is about your dad.
That's a, that's a wholeother conversation.
Jade (they/them) (13:02):
But a really important one.
I used to do youth work with youthwho used substances, used drugs,
and really at the end of the day,they were looking for that connection,
they were looking for that belonging, evenwhen they were the most confrontational
with the people that were caring for them.
And then I think that translates alsointo how equity deserving groups
(13:26):
treat ourselves, and treat each other.
Where we have experienced that,disconnection, that lack of
belonging, when we're young and thenthat translates into how we treat
others within our own communities
when we're trying to create thatspace for ourselves and for others
who are like us. So I'm curiousif there's any other pieces that
(13:49):
you've seen, worked really well tobring some of these concepts forward?
David (he/him) (13:55):
I'm thinking of Kai Cheng Thom.
She wrote a really great article thatI was such a fan of some years ago.
Kai Cheng Thom is a clinician and awriter, a trans woman of color,
and she wrote this article some yearsago called Why are queer people so mean?
Jade (they/them) (14:09):
Hmm.
David (he/him) (14:09):
And that rubbed some people the wrong way when they saw that article,
but I loved it.
And what I thought was so excellentthat she was able to do was to
explore how our own experiences oftrauma as LGBTQ spectrum folks has
influenced and informed even theways in which we attempt to create Community.
And how that shows up in social justicecircles, how that shows up in social
(14:32):
work spaces, and how even those ofus with all the right quote unquote
language and all the right quoteunquote politics can be so horrible with
each other.
Jade (they/them) (14:43):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (14:44):
Under the guises of community building, under the guises of inclusion and equity and
under the guises of all those things.
And why there are so many folks who indroves are leaving quote unquote community
because of this feeling of disconnection.
Jade (they/them) (14:57):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (14:58):
There can be a tendency, myself included, for us to sort of drink our own Kool-Aid
and forget that, yes, you read a couplebooks or you went to a couple lectures or
you attend such and such protests, butthat doesn't exempt you from being human
Jade (they/them) (15:11):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (15:12):
You, like everybody else, showed up on this planet without your consent,
kicking and screaming. And you, likeeverybody else on this planet, is gonna
go out again, without your consent,
sometimes kicking , and screaming.
And so humility isactually about perspective.
And so when you can hold thatperspective of recognizing that
you, like everybody else, are on thisrollercoaster ride, that you didn't ask
to be on, trying to figure it out midride, the ups, the downs, it allows
(15:36):
you then back to this idea of grace.
It allows you to be more graceful withnot only yourself, but other people.
I think that there's been an over-emphasisover the years in this "community
first". Let's build for community let'sdo for community without acknowledging
the ways that communities are builtthrough individuals who come together.
And if you don't figure out theindividual and the small groups,
(15:59):
then of course you're not gonnafigure out the bigger groups.
Jade (they/them) (16:01):
Right
David (he/him) (16:02):
When I was 14 years old and coming out of the closet and finding myself, it was in
the arms of quote unquote community thatI found respite, that I found connection.
I think many people have that story, youknow, that first time in the village or
that first time saying the words Iam gay, I'm lesbian, I'm trans, whatever.
And that feeling of, ah, finally mytribe, you know? And I've also seen
(16:25):
and heard a lot of people in andoutside of community share how that
experience has dissipated over theyears, how the realities of community,
the difficulties and the challengeof communities, how that shows up too.
And so I do think that the conversationsabout the ways in which our individual
and group level traumas can impedethe very world that we're trying
to co-create together, you know?
Erin (she/her) (16:45):
Absolutely
David (he/him) (16:46):
And so why is it that all of us who speak and preach belonging
have such difficulty being inright relationship with each other.
Who have all the right words to say, andare constantly at odds with each other
on and offline about a myriad of thingsfrom the biggest to the smallest, and
why we are people that are so committedsupposedly to abolition of systems of
(17:10):
oppression and policing, are so quickto police and abolish each other.
And so I, I'm alwaysvery curious about that.
I think it's a moment that we're inright now and we're having to contend with.
Jade (they/them) (17:25):
I would agree.
I've seen this very consistently throughour communities and it's a real challenge.
I mean, I know for myself, I was thevery, like, gung-ho angry activist,
and the way that I interacted withpeople wasn't always bringing them in.
Wasn't always producing space.
(17:45):
And we had another guest, DeepakKashyap, who talked about moving from
being a social justice warrior to asocial justice worker. Not to say
that sometimes we don't need warriors,cuz sometimes we do in my opinion.
So I'm curious
how we can move through some ofthese pieces and move towards
these futures that are morewelcoming, that bring more space.
(18:08):
So, Erin, do you want totalk about the future space?
Erin (she/her) (18:12):
I do.
I'm going to share a quote
that's not gonna be word for word, butI'm reminded of it often from the
book Hood Feminism by Mikki Kendall.
And she talks about this concept of
having to exist in the worldas it currently is, not in
how we wish it would be.
And there's so much in there for meabout this future state. And it's
(18:36):
gonna take us a while to get there.
You know, it pains me even to sayit's gonna take us a while, but
it's not gonna happen overnight.
So David, as we think about thefuture, what are we working towards?
David (he/him) (18:48):
When I think about
what I'm working towards,
I think it's changed.
And I like the quote that you offered up.
I'd love to sit with the original quoteitself, but what it's drawing
to mind is this conversation
I remember James Baldwin havingand watching this lecture he and
Malcolm X had had. Malcolm X had had someideas around what would be in
the best interest of Black people.
And I think for him it was basedin sort of religious ideology.
(19:09):
But one of the things that James hadsaid was, you know, Malcolm, I don't
think Black people need any more myth.
What Black people need is thecourage to face reality as it is.
Erin (she/her) (19:19):
Hmm
David (he/him) (19:20):
And
I remember hearing that lecture, and I wasliving in England at the time, and that
landed for me like a really powerful way.
Erin (she/her) (19:27):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (19:28):
And, you know, I'm a big meditator.
That's a part of my own practice.
And a lot of meditation is aboutlearning to just be with what is.
Not to resist it, but to be in wholerelationship with life as it is.
Erin (she/her) (19:44):
mm-hmm
David (he/him) (19:44):
That you can't change anything that you can't be with, you can't change
anything that you can't sit in.
And so the way that the work for melooks different now than it might have,
15 years ago, or 20 years ago, when I wasstarting out is I'm less interested in
having the world conform to this ideaof what I see as whatever in my head
(20:06):
and have me be able to recognize the worldfor what it is and work with what it is.
Now
that doesn't mean accepting things thatare unacceptable, but it means, and
this goes back to this humility thing,
like recognize where you are in thefull spectrum of life. The insignificance
of you, and yet the significance of you.
Erin (she/her) (20:28):
Yep.
David (he/him) (20:29):
I don't know what a perfect world would look like because I'm an imperfect thing.
And because the machine itselfis imperfect, any of its
computations will be imperfect.
So my work now I think is, rather thanhow can I get Erin and Jade on my page?
It's how can I find the places whereErin and Jade and I are in accord,
Erin (she/her) (20:48):
I love that.
Tell me more about that
David (he/him) (20:51):
How can I build bridges?
How can I be in right relationship,even across difference?
There's so much going on.
One
of the things I've beenhaving to ask myself and other
colleagues in this space is
there's a million and one EDIprofessionals everywhere.
We've been doing allthese inclusion projects,
and it's been going likethis for the last 15 years.
If this is working, have we producedthe outcomes that we've set out to do?
(21:14):
And if we haven't do we needto go back to the drawing board
around what it is that we're doing?
Erin (she/her) (21:19):
I hear that.
David (he/him) (21:20):
Now
I know that that's not necessarilyeverybody's jam to hear, but I
think that there's a value inbuilding more bridges, you know?
Jade (they/them) (21:27):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (21:27):
And so I'm really interested in, and I think my time in, my mediation
program what it really taught me was how dowe create spaces to have people across
different come together? And, andright now, given all the things that
we're in so many culture wars, right?
Like there's so many culture warshappening right now, concurrently all
of them, all at once, right? Aroundrace, around gender, around religion,
around class, around..., and everybody'sat odds, and everybody has the answer,
(21:52):
but very few of us are engaged increating more opportunities for
conversation. And like real conversationthat sometimes will make us uncomfortable.
Sometimes you're gonna have to sit acrossfrom somebody who sees the world in a
completely different way than you do, andthat doesn't make them a horrible person.
It means that we have to find thein. And not the in for you the wise
(22:12):
one to get into the ignorant one,but how can two wise people find a
place of commonality, despite thedifferences, and despite the different
perspectives, and all that other jazz.
Erin (she/her) (22:24):
Wow. You are speaking my language.
I love this so much because we'renot asking people to understand
every single part of us.
We're trying to
create the space, like you'retalking about, to at least just
be able to connect as humans.
And, you know, I, I'm pausing and, andreflecting a little bit here because
(22:45):
you asked a really powerful question.
Have we figured it out?
Have we actually createdmore inclusive spaces?
Have people found a sense of belonging asthese organizations work in these spaces?
And, to be honest, I don'tknow if we necessarily have.
David (he/him) (23:04):
And I would gently push against the idea that we are all trying to do this.
Cause I actually don't know ifwe are all trying to do that.
Erin (she/her) (23:10):
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (23:10):
I think some of us aren't there.
I think some of us have notyet gotten to the place where
there's even the possibility for abridging of the divides with other folks.
Erin (she/her) (23:20):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (23:20):
There are many of us who can't even be in the room with people who might
see the world differently than us.
So I don't know if that's all of ouraim, but I think, given everything
that's going on, it should bemost of our aims at this time.
Erin (she/her) (23:31):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (23:32):
Like, there's no other option.
It's this or civil warsand more tribalism
and more... like we have to beable to cultivate an ability to
endure it long enough to hear,to be, with difference, you know?
Erin (she/her) (23:45):
Definitely
Jade (they/them) (23:46):
Agreed.
Tell me more about that.
David (he/him) (23:49):
Some years ago, I was doing a training around anti-racism.
And there was a gentleman inthis particular training, a
racialized white person, and
he was just not jivingwith some of the things.
, . And I continued to engage him.
You know? I made intentionally to makesure he felt , even though this wasn't
his jam, that he felt like this space wasfor him, that I'm not here to wag a finger
(24:12):
and tell you that you're a horrible humanbeing, cuz that's not, I don't believe it.
I'm not that guy.
You want a facilitatorwho does that? Find them.
I don't do that.
And what was so amazing for me isthat at some point in the training,
he ended up sharing a story.
His family had come as newcomersand they had lived in small
town Ontario. And they were theforeigners in this community. And they
often didn't have a lot of money,
(24:33):
they didn't usually goout to the mall or to restaurants.
But one, one day his mother had savedup enough money to take the family
out to McDonald's. And he remembersas a young person following his
mother and his siblings out to go toMcDonald's and watching her struggle
to count her change and communicatewith the waiter to make her order at
McDonald's. And a group of young menbehind them began to make fun, right?
(24:54):
Making fun of these foreigners.
And he's telling this story,and he he's sharing the story.
And he talks about looking up at hismother's face and seeing the deflation.
She had started out this conversationreally proud, you know, I'm here, taking
my kids to McDonald's, and by the end,she was feeling like a piece of, of crap
because these folks had made fun ofher. And so I said to him, I said, do you
(25:15):
remember what that felt like to watch yourmom, and to see the deflation and to feel
that? And as he was sharing some of thethings that were coming up for him, I
said, so now back to the conversation wewere having about some of the experience
of racialized folks, can you see perhapsthat connection between that experience
of disconnection and deflation thatyour mother experienced and the ones that
are held by many other folks, includingracialized and other minority folks.
(25:39):
And it was this aha moment.
Now, I wasn't trying to rubhis nose in anything, I wasn't
trying to shame him or blame him.
Everybody
can get this stuff,
if we approach them as whole human beings,and not as problems to be fixed by us,
the benevolent other, or the angry warriorwith the picket fence ready to bash
anybody over the head who doesn't seethings in the exact same way that we do.
(26:00):
I love to have conversationswith people who are not like me.
I love to have conversations with peoplewho, in a lot of ways would vexate my spirit.
And I love to have those kinds ofconversations that have me walking away,
finding something, even if it's a kernelof truth and connection that other.
I don't need to like you to hear you.
I don't need to agree with you togive you an opportunity to speak.
Erin (she/her) (26:21):
mhm.
David (he/him) (26:22):
And as long as you're not going out of your way to cause me actual harm, I'm
open, I'm open. Not only diversity ofbodies, but diversity of perspectives.
Erin (she/her) (26:34):
Wow. Everything you're talking about makes me think about the
bump against how might be told
we need to show up inside of acorporate environment - that we have
to fit into a box that we have tobe a certain way to do our work.
And what a weird concept that is.
Aren't we the same person
right now as we're having thisconversation as the person that shows
(26:56):
up inside of a corporate environment?
. David (he/him): I've been thinking about this a lot.
A lot of companies, private and publicsector, have begun filling slots and
checking boxes for queers, for racializedfolks, for women, for whatever.
I think that there is valueto representation, but beyond
representation is having meaningfulintegration and collaboration
(27:17):
of people across differences.
Mm-hmm
David (he/him) (27:20):
I don't want checkbox relationships.
I don't want, okay,
now it's Pride Month and noweverything in the office is
gonna be sprinkled fairy dust.
And I, I know for some other folks, thisnext statement will challenge them. I
don't even need your celebration.
I don't necessarily need that.
I would like to see a place wherehowever we are, and however we show up
(27:40):
in whatever boxes we tick are so regular
it doesn't even register.
Jade (they/them) (27:44):
Exactly.
David (he/him) (27:45):
I talk about this often in the ABR space or anti-Black racism space. As a bit of a
sort of reflex against anti-Black racism,many of us sort of took up this Black
magic, Black excellence mantra, right.
Where we're gonna be awesome all the time.
And many of us have seen ina lot of our communities
there's been this sort of deificationof all things minority. And what
(28:07):
happens to all of the things thatwe lift up and exalt? They fall
the ground, because they're human.
Erin (she/her) (28:12):
Yeah.
David (he/him) (28:12):
And I'm like, actually to me, the win would be being able to be mediocre.
Being able to be Black and mediocre.Regular, just regular. And that
not to, to, to elicit any kind ofwhatever. That I don't need to be
magical and excellent at all times.
I just need to be regular. Good enough.
Because that's, to me,the sign of true inclusion.
(28:33):
And so I'd like a place where the transstaff member, it doesn't even register.
It's not even a thing.
It doesn't even have to be a conversation.
That the Black colleague,not even a thing.
That the whatever, fill in the blank onwhatever, it doesn't even register. It's
as normal and as every day as anythingelse. That to me is the win. Rather
(28:53):
than these performative celebrationsof us that have been co-opted and
corporatized, and everybody's, you know,turns their screens a particular color,
and that's the demonstrationof their allyship.
You don't need to drink my Kool-Aid.
You just need to see me and myfullness and be okay with that
and not have to other me, or moveme out of existence, you know?
Erin (she/her) (29:11):
Yeah.
Allow space for everyone, right?
David (he/him) (29:14):
Everyone.
Erin (she/her) (29:15):
Yeah, that's a beautiful image to create and to work towards and
pull back on your word of grace.
We're gonna have to giveourselves grace as we navigate
that idea and figure it out.
Um, so I know we're gonna, we're goingto I'm I'm pre-warning you cuz we're
gonna get into rapid fire, but I will,I will read the quote from Mikki. She
(29:35):
says, "We all have to engage with the worldas it is, not as we might wish it to be"
And so
we wanna get to this future state,but we also exist in the now, and
how do we all create the spaceto show up and be ourselves?
And I think you've reallyshared some great insights
(29:56):
with us. So thank you so much.
And Jade's gonna lead us into a bitof rapid fire, so I hope you're ready.
Jade (they/them) (30:05):
Let's get into the rapid fire.
So if you could recommendone book, what would it be?
David (he/him) (30:10):
I Hope We Choose Love by Kai Cheng Thom.
Jade (they/them) (30:13):
I fully agree and I'm in love with that book as well.
Erin (she/her) (30:17):
It's
now
going on my list.
So next question.
What brings you joy,
no matter what?
David (he/him) (30:23):
Having people over who wouldn't normally be in the same room together,
but are only brought together becauseyou know, they know me. I'm the king
of standing quietly in the corner ofmy own party and watching the room.
Because I just love the sound of peoplewho wouldn't normally speak, speaking.
Erin (she/her) (30:38):
I love that.
Jade (they/them) (30:38):
It's beautiful.
So what's your theme song for today?
David (he/him) (30:43):
So I was thinking about belonging and, and I thought of a song that I did and do love.
I will forewarn that there'sa bit nepotism in there.
It's a song that my nephew JamesBaley has written, called My Family.
And in the song, he talks aboutthis idea of feeling disconnected
and feeling alone. Looking forlove and surrounded by sadness,
he says, and findingcommunity and finding family.
(31:05):
And I felt like given thisidea of belonging, that was sort
of apt to call into the space.
So, My Family by James Baley.
Erin (she/her) (31:13):
I love that.
Well, it's actually maybe resonantof our next question. Who is
someone that inspires you inhow they create belonging, but
doesn't receive enough credit?
David (he/him) (31:23):
So I would say Sylvia Delgado. Really great facilitator, trainer,
educator. In fact, she was sortof the inspiration for me to go
back to school and, and do my MSW.
Kai Cheng Thom gets a lotof nods, but I'll nod her again,
especially now a lot of her work isfocused on restorative practice , and
supporting people through conflict.
And my now friend Aisha Akanbi, havingsort of the difficult conversations
(31:46):
about how we can have differentrelationship in communities of justice.
Yeah, those are the three.
Jade (they/them) (31:52):
All powerful community workers who bring a lot to the space and
the communities that they serve.
So to close out with our lastquestion, what is one call to action
you'd like from our listeners?
David (he/him) (32:05):
Have a conversation
with
someone that you would never have aconversation with. Read a magazine
or a newspaper from across the fence.
Go to a part of the city that youwould normally not go to, just
as a thought experiment.
You know, if, if you read the TorontoStar, pick up the Toronto Sun. If you read
The Globe and Mail, pick up the National Post.If you live in the west side of the
(32:27):
city, go to the east side of city. Havea conversation with that colleague that
you would think is completely unlike you,
and see what happens.
Jade (they/them) (32:36):
That power of making that connection actually resonates with something
I read this morning in one ofthe books that I was reading.
David (he/him) (32:42):
What book are you reading Jade?
Jade (they/them) (32:43):
uh, I am reading currently Dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
David (he/him) (32:48):
Oh, I love Brene Brown.
Jade (they/them) (32:52):
She comes up in every episode of this podcast
it seems like.
Everybody who listens to thispodcast, I really hope that they
take up your call to action andreally put themselves out there.
And
I think, especially those ofus who are white, we like
to say, oh, well I read it.
I read it and now I'm done.
(33:12):
And so I'm going to encouragepeople to do more than read it, but
also they can go read it as well,
in addition. So, so thankfulfor you being here today.
My goodness, Erin, what aconversation we had today.
Erin (she/her) (33:28):
Yeah,
wow.
What a powerful conversation
with David.
He did leave us with so manygreat ideas for our listeners
to think about, because,
as practitioners, we can become socomfortable with those that are in our
sphere, the sphere that are willing
to listen,
that they're on the samejourney that we are on.
But if we're truly
going to make a difference inthis world, I do think it's
(33:50):
connecting across difference.
I do think it's hearing what otherpeople have to say, creating the space
so they can hear what we have to say too.
But if we just keep havingthe same conversation
with people
who are on that same journey,then I don't know if we're
actually gonna create that change.
Jade (they/them) (34:06):
I agree.
We have to be connecting withpeople who are not on the journey,
who, you know, sometimes maycause us some discomfort too.
But if we're not doing that, are we trulydoing the work of creating belonging?
Erin (she/her) (34:20):
Absolutely.
And that's our challenge to ourselves,but a challenge to our listeners
as well as they uncover belonging.
Jade (they/them) (34:32):
Thank
you so much for tuning in.
We hope that
you
enjoyed, learned and uncovereddeeper belonging with us.
Connect with us on LinkedIn, andlet us know what part of today's
episode resonated most with you. Many
thanks to our production team:
editor,
Shawn Ahmed,
communications, Luis Augusto Nobre,
(34:54):
and
production support,
Connor Pion.
We'd
also like to thank and share abrief message from our sponsor
Erin Davis Co.
Erin (she/her) (35:04):
Today's episode is sponsored by Erin Davis Co.
.
As the founder and Lead InclusionStrategist, Erin Davis brings her
award-winning expertise, global thoughtleadership, and unique ability to
bravely and authentically challenge
the status quo to help people feel agreater sense of connection and belonging.
Ultimately, Erin Davis Co. supportsorganizations on their diversity,
(35:27):
equity, and accessibility journey tocreate a more inclusive workplace.
One conversation at a time.
To learn more about Erin DavisCo. visit erindavisco.ca
Jade (they/them) (35:40):
And of course, most of all, we'd like to
thank you
for joining us today. For more informationabout today's guest, links referenced,
and a transcript, check out our shownotes, which are available on the
Pride at Work Canada's website. Subscribeor follow wherever you get your
podcasts, including Apple Podcasts,Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and more.
(36:04):
Join us for our next episode, where wewill be joined by Jake Stika, co-founder
and Executive Director of Next Gen Men.
We
look forward to you joining us next timeas we continue to uncover belonging.
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