January 19, 2023 • 22 mins
Jefferson Darrell (he/him), the founder and CEO of Breakfast Culture, joins co-hosts Erin and Jade to share some of his “Secret Sauce” when it comes to inclusion and belonging including the roles and impacts of self-reflexivity and Racial Battle Fatigue in the workplace, and how EDI consulting work can be a solutions-focused way to survive and thrive.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm on the apps like a lot of us.And yeah, I was looking, you know,
scrolling through, I was like,
he's kind of cute and the personhappened to be Chinese.
I thought he was kind of cute and Iwas interested. So I message, Hey,
how's it going? And then he messagesback, oh, not into Black guys, sorry,
just a preference. And my immediateknee-jerk reaction was, yeah,
a lot of Chinese guys just aren't intoBlack men. And then I remember thinking,
(00:23):
huh, well you just useda massive broad brush,
on an entire group of people. Andthat's where I go back to empathy,
actively listening, questioning.
I'm Jade Pichette; They/Them.
And I'm Erin Davis. And Iuse the pronouns She and Her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories of unique voices
(00:46):
of what it means to belong.
And the journey to findingour authentic self.
Erin.
I am so excited today to introduceyou to Jefferson Darrell He/Him,
the founder and CEO of Breakfast
Culture.
I'm excited as well because Jeffersonand I had the opportunity to
connect and get to knoweach other a little bit.
(01:08):
And so I'm excited to doa bit of a deeper dive.
Yeah, definitely.
I met Jefferson early in the pandemiconline when Pride at Work Canada was
trying to pivot to really try and findenough virtual content cuz we had been
doing so much in person.
And so Jefferson was one of the people Igot introduced to very early on because
(01:28):
of his background in diversity,equity and inclusion work,
as well as his specific knowledge interms of how you do that in a marketing
context. And so his marketingbackground and so he did a really,
really amazing webinar for us calledWoke Marketing Rainbow Edition that our
partners loved.
He's also become our Anti-Blackracism action plan consultant
(01:51):
and he's become one of the people thatI really value and admire in my network.
And so I'm so excited to introduce youtoday to Jefferson and just like myself
is calling in from Tkaronto or Toronto today.
And so welcome Jefferson.
Thank you Jade. Happy to be here.
(02:12):
This is Erin and I'm recording this afterthe fact to provide our listeners with
a content note and let you know inadvance that throughout the conversation
Jefferson shares experiencesof suicidal ideation as well as
Anti-Black racism.
We wanted to take a quick pause andencourage you to check in with yourself so
that you can decide whether this iscontent you're able to engage with at this
(02:34):
moment before listening on.
Tell us a little bit about yourstory. How did you get into this work?
Thank you, Erin. Happy toshare my story. It's funny,
I often hear how did youget into this line of work?
And I can't speak for everyone obviously,
but I suspect a lot of people who listento this. But I think we're always,
(02:54):
always just doing this becausewe have to for our own survival.
Mm-hmm for me specifically,
part of it was my own life experience,
lived experiences working within anorganization when there was quite a bit of
um, racism, specifically Anti-Black racism.
And through that I also found out aboutsome of the gender discrimination that
was happening there. Homophobiathat was happening there as well.
(03:16):
And I end up becoming this go-to voicefor the marginalized peoples in the
workplace.
Tell me more about that.
So I spent eight yearsin this organization.
I always say I spent seven years too long.
It was not a good time forme. I was extremely depressed,
(03:37):
frankly to the point ofI felt suicidal - Sunday
morning at 3:00 AM was always the worst.
I would literally wake up in a cold sweat,
dreaded going into work the nextday that said, when I say suicidal,
I need to qualify this. Um,
I was in therapy for about three or fouryears and I was going through all of
this. My therapist kept asking me, doyou have a plan to take your own life?
(03:59):
To be clear, I did not havea plan to take my own life.
I felt more hopeless than helpless.Mm-hmm., um,
behavioral psychologist WillSmith, not Will Smith,
but the psychologist Will Smith,he actually did a study on this,
he called it Racial Battle Fatigueor RBF. Mm-hmm.
And it talks about the physical,
mental and emotional impact that racism,
(04:22):
especially systemic racism,
but racism period can have onracialized peoples within the workplace.
And I was a very much a textbook ofexample of that and it was a horrible,
horrible dark time in my life.
And I realized I don't want anyoneelse to have to go through what I went
through.
And that's one of the reasons why Igot into this work cuz I'm very much,
you know what if I'm gonnacomplain about something,
(04:42):
let me come to the table with a solution.
And I took all my learning and myexperience and I put it into um,
Breakfast Culture.
So maybe a bit of a follow up Jefferson,
you kind of at the beginningof your story shared this,
I would say sense of exclusion inthe role that you were doing Right.
And have you found a greater senseof belonging now that you have this
(05:04):
organization and you get to diveinto this work every single day?
Um, there's that old saying that whenwe don't get a seat at the table,
we'll often leave and make our own tables.And that's basically what I've done.
I hear that.
No without its own challengesbecause I operated at a
C-suite level,
but I was never given the title and I wasnever given the compensation that goes
(05:26):
with that. Right.
So I never received that goldenparachute to start my own business.
I'm bootstrapping it all myself.
Totally.
Um, it's funny,
I received a really good piece ofadvice when I first started my company.
I make sure you partner with peoplewhose values align with yours.
And that's something we do look for.
And if anyone you're thinkingof partnering with their values don't align with
(05:48):
yours, no matter how attractivethat partnership looks,
don't partner with them becauseit's not going to end well.
Yeah. And you're also speaking to,
to not only sort of the words on thepaper but also living those values
every single day, right?
Oh.
Exactly.
It's kind of exciting when you thinkabout it from the perspective of like,
okay,
I get to start from a place of what'sgonna work for me so I have this sense of
(06:12):
belonging and how can I bring otherpeople into this space so they can
have that sense of belonging ratherthan the opposite of try to fit yourself
into this system.
That's one of the three Bs of what wecall our um, well marketing offering.
Be authentic to your brand. If itdoesn't make sense for your brand,
that's okay.
You're not necessarily gonna speak toeverybody and if it doesn't make sense for
(06:34):
your brand, don't try to fit yourself in,
as you said where it doesn't make sense.
Absolutely.
Um, the other two bees arebe present and be prepared.
Well that's for another discussion.
, I suspect they mightweave themselves into our dialogue.
I'm gonna turn it over to Jade andgive them the opportunity to dive a bit
deeper.
Thank you Erin.
I appreciate the depth ofvulnerability and many pieces that
(06:58):
connect to some of my ownhistories of a previous workplace.
And this quote really stuck in my head,
the James Baldwin quote of the placein which outfit will not exist until I
make it.
Exactly.
At least for the three of us.We've had to go outside of um,
traditional spaces to createthat space for ourselves.
(07:18):
But we're helping and trying tocreate that space for others.
So what are some of the barriers thatyou see in terms of actually bringing
that space from these consulting spaces,
nonprofit spaces to a spacewhere we can actually see
people who look like us who havethe similar experiences as us?
(07:39):
I find one of the biggest barriers is Ihave a lot of clients approach Breakfast
Culture with a solution already. Hmm.They've already made the decision of,
well we wanna do training versuslet's talk to our people first,
see what we might want toactually train them. All right.
So I had one client that came to usin 2020 during the Racial awakening.
They skewed heavily with anumber of white employees.
(08:02):
So just anecdotallyobservationally, they realized okay,
we may have some problems from a systemicracism issue that didn't surprise them
and that came out in the data. Butwhat also came out in the data,
which completely surprised them,
was 40% of their staff had hiddendisabilities and they were just gobsmack.
They're like, wow, we had no idea. Eh.
(08:23):
The other piece that came outwas, um, majority of their um,
employees were under the age of 35 andanyone over the age of 35 felt like, oh,
so you're giving me the hey boomer.
So when it comes to training now basedon that data from what their people
actually told them, itactually informed the training.
So in addition to racism training,there needed to be ageism training,
there needed to ability training,they needed to review their policies,
(08:46):
their accessibility in termsof the overall organization. Mm-hmm.
So that's where I say as I find that'sa barrier cuz a lot of times I have
clients reach out to Breakfast Cultureand they just wanna immediately go to
training. Skipping that step, thatfirst initial, let's collect some data.
I see this so often in thework that I do as well and I've
seen Aaron nodding as well. It issomething that's systemic, right?
(09:11):
And I think sometimes it'scoming from a place of,
well we just need to do something becauseotherwise we're gonna be perceived as
doing nothing. Oh yeah.
It really is something that a lot oforganizations need to rethink. You know,
how do we actually start at thebeginning and look at this from an
intersectional perspective and recognizethat there's no one issue to be able to
(09:33):
make a community feel completely included.
You hit the nail on the head. Ourcourses are built to build on each other.
We start with diversity and Englishin 1 0 1, very foundational.
Our second course we recommend afterthat we call it power and privilege.
That's breakfast cultures approachto unconscious bias training.
We flip it and we talk about how weall benefit from forms of privilege.
(09:54):
For example, in D and I 101,
I do a quick little privilege test whereI put up seven very common privileges
in North America. I'm sure we canthink of them now. Or you male.
Are you straight? Are you white?Are you cis? Are you able-bodied?
Do you have so economic privilege andwere you bought up in the Christian fate
at fought an exhaustive listfor me as a Black gay man.
I score five out of seven on thatlist. And that's a high score.
(10:17):
And this is what I'm saying, we allbenefit from some form of privilege.
And then that sort of third sectionof exercises, we break them down.
So we call them ally as a verb.
We have a racism edition where we justlook at white privilege and how white
people, men, women, trans, etcetera benefit in today's society.
We have a women's edition where we lookat male privilege and the patriarchy of
misogyny and how men,
(10:38):
black gay trans men even benefitfrom male privilege in society.
Definitely.
And if anyone comes in, well whatabout, what about, you're right,
there are other people whodon't have these privileges.
The only one who wins when we get intoOppression Olympics is the oppressor.
Agreed. And so that's why Ialways like to tell my clients,
I don't care who you are, butbefore we do ally as a verb,
(11:00):
we are doing power and privilegefirst to help avoid that.
What about is a and Oppression Olympics.
Yeah. That's so important.
I know one of the mostpowerful anti-racism trainings that was like designed
by Chanelle Gallant, it wascalled uh, Beyond White Tears.
And she got a lot of support.
One of the things that shekept going back to in that was,
(11:22):
let's make sure to reaffirm,
what about looking at that issuespecifically? So when it came to racism,
you know, as a white person,
I may be a disabled transfemme and I could go on,
but what about theexperience of a trans femme of
color who's disabled in that sameexperience and really needing to focus on
(11:47):
that.
So making sure that people have kindof this broader understanding of power,
privilege, how it interacts in the world,
how we all have privileges but thatthings can interact differently when those
different privileges andoppressions interact. Exactly.
So I'm hearing like lookat the broader picture,
step back and then focusin on specific forms of
(12:10):
marginalization. What other thingshave you seen that work really,
really well to make kindof that systemic change?
Biggest thing I'd say is empathy. Mm-hmm.
empathizing with otherpeople's perspectives, number one.
Number two, active listening. Hmm.
Don't you listen tounderstand not to counter.
And then number three is questioning,like questioning our own biases.
(12:34):
Right.
May I share a quicklittle story? Of course.
I'm on the apps like a lot of usand yeah, I was looking, you know,
scrolling through, I was like,
oh he's kind of cute andthe person happened to be Chinese.
My thought was kind of cute, namewas interested. So I message, Hey,
how's it going? And then he messagesback, oh not into Black guys, sorry,
just a preference. And my immediateknee-jerk reaction was, yeah,
(12:57):
a lot of Chinese guys just aren't intoBlack men. And then I remember thinking,
huh, well you just useda massive broad brush,
on an entire group of people. Andthat's where I go back to empathy,
actively listening, questioning.And I thought, you know what?
That's a racist thought. Why did Ithink that? Where did that come from?
And learning from it andmoving forward. Mm-hmm.
(13:17):
, that initialvoice that comes up.
I like to describe that as thevoice of the oppressor in all of us.
But really that second voice,that second moment where you say,
oh wait, why did I think that?That's who we truly are though.
And so I think there's hope whenwe take that moment back and um,
move beyond it.
And I don't think we do enoughof that in today's society.
(13:39):
I think we're just looking at thingsthrough our own cultural lens.
Agreed.
And that's the part that um, Ifind is kind of scaring me now.
Mm-hmm..Yeah. There is fear.
There is fear that is happening inthe world, but there's also hope too.
And I thank you for that cuzI often forget about the.
Hope. Right. And that'swhy I still do this work.
I love that.
(14:00):
So I'm gonna pass it back over to Erin.
Thanks Jade. And I'm just uh,
sitting here reflecting on allof that hope Jefferson for you.
What are we working towards?What are we trying to get to?
What does that look like for you?
Ultimately I think empathy. Mm-hmm.
as human beings justempathizing with other people's
(14:20):
scenarios and situations. Um,which is often very hard to do.
Some of these lessonsI've learned personally,
case from point 15 years ago is diagnosedwith a very rare neurological disorder
that left me paralyzedfrom the waist down.
I literally had to relearn how to walk.
And it's funny cuz I startedseeing how people treated
me when I had these mobility issuesand it really taught me a lot
(14:42):
about ableism. Mm-hmm..
And I remember friends of mine invitedme to a restaurant. I was hunched over,
had to use two canes, literally.
I could not walk and andchew gum at the same time.
I had to think about every singlemoment putting my foot down,
rolling from the heel into the toes,
making sure my weight's distributedthere as my balance. Good, okay.
I can lift up my next legnow. And the hostess said, oh,
(15:04):
do you know what tableyou might be looking for?
And spoke to me as if I was stupid. Ijust looked at her without skipping.
But I said, I just can'twalk. I'm not dumb.
And that's where I go back to empathyand just put yourself in other people's
shoes. Whether that's women,whether that's trans people,
whether that's racialized people. And Ijust don't think we do enough of that.
So in terms of working towards,
(15:25):
that's what I'd say is a spaceI think we're trying to get to.
And then also from an organizational lens,
let me start looking at systemic issues.
Has a lot of the challengesthat marginalized groups face
often do you fall under systemicissues based on a lot of
these individual assumptions?
100%. And I think we don'tcreate the time to reflect,
(15:49):
we don't create the time to haveempathy, if that makes sense.
And I'm worried about that.
So I think a reminder forfolks to how are you actioning?
Rather than just talking about it.
As Jade quoted earlier, I oftendo quote James Baldwin myself.
And one of my favoritequotes from James Baldwin is,
I can't believe what you saybecause I see what you do. Mm-hmm.
(16:11):
. Yeah. It's so true.Actions absolutely speak such volumes.
Totally.
So what do we need to focus onto build a more inclusive world?
One thing I've recognizedin the D and I space,
a lot of it is actually marketing.
Yeah.
A lot of it's really public relations,which is my core background.
Public relations at its core isabout changing public perception,
(16:34):
getting people to think differentlyso they'll act differently.
In the past I used purchase poweras in that action was buy my widget,
whether that was theater tickets or watchthe television network that I worked
for or buy the soap that I was selling.
Now the action is I want you to startthinking differently and thinking and
questioning yourself in termsof why am I thinking this way?
Where is this coming from?
(16:55):
Yeah.
And I think if we start focusingon that more as individuals,
I think the world would be amuch better place personally.
Absolutely.
We've talked for quite a while,
it's such a great conversation andI know we can talk a lot longer,
but I wanna throw us into the rapid fire.
So do we feel ready atfirst some rapid fire?
(17:16):
Sure.
. So our first question is,
if you could recommendone book, what would it.
Be? It's a book called What If ShortStories to Spark Inclusion and Diversity
Dialogue. It's writtenby Steve Al Robbins PhD.
What I love about this book is for peoplewho are not familiar with the D and I
space, it's very accessible.
(17:38):
I love that. And I actuallyhave not read that book.
So it is now officially on my list.So next question, what brings you joy?
No matter what?
I think it's springing time with my niece.
We'll just go on adventures and we'llgo check out like art exhibits or we'll
go check out dance things. We'lljust do something fun together.
(17:59):
We'll sometimes just cook together even.
I love that.
Yeah. That's absolutely beautiful.Now I want you to be my uncle.
So what is your theme song for today?
It's been an oldie but agoodie from the 1990s Love Inc.
You are a superstar. Reach for the sky,
hold your head up hard fortonight and every night you are a
(18:24):
superstar. Anyways, I can go.
Side note for everyone if you're able to.
Getting up and dancing is just, Ithink another opportunity for joy.
But back to the questions.
Who is someone that inspiresyou but doesn't receive
enough credit?
Two people came to mind.
So one is my friend Ken might be shootingmyself in the foot. Will I say this?
(18:48):
But a man by the name of Randall Pearce.
So our final question,
what is one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners.
When you have those biased thoughts,
those discriminatory thoughts,those racist thoughts,
those homophobic thoughts, thosetransphobic thoughts. We all have them.
(19:08):
Like your lines yourself. If youdon't, I want you to stop, pause,
and question where is thatcoming from? What's happening?
Why am I thinking what hascaused me to have this thought?
That's an amazing one.Thank you so much Jefferson,
for joining us today.It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you.
(19:31):
So great to hear Jefferson in remindingus about how important empathy is and
active listening and thisidea of questioning ourselves.
Where is that bias coming from? Becausewe all have it. We can't eliminate it,
but we can definitely interrupt it. SoI appreciate his perspectives there.
Yeah, I share everything that you saidand we've talked about this in previous
(19:55):
episodes. We're becoming more andmore divided. Mm-hmm.,
everybody's just kind of going to theirown sources. Mm-hmm.,
including probably many of our listenerswho come here because they share a
similar belief system that you and I doErin even though we have very different
experiences. Right.
One of my go-tos is the SevenHabits of Highly Effective People
(20:16):
and Habit five is actually seekfirst to understand and then
to be understood.
And that goes through everythingthat Jefferson was saying and
frankly how he works in theworld. So I've been grateful for.
That. Me too.
Thank you so much for tuningin. We hope you enjoyed,
(20:38):
learned and uncovereddeeper belonging with us.
Connect with us on LinkedIn and letus know what part of today's episode
resonated most with you.
Many thanks to our production team,
Editor and Producer ShawnAhmed Communications,
Luis Augusto Nobre andproduction support, Connor Pion.
(21:01):
We would also like to thank and sharebrief message from our sponsors,
Pride at Work Canada.
For 2SLGBTQIA+
people in Canada toconfront today's economic challenges.
They need good jobs with risingincomes because of stigma,
(21:22):
stereotypes, bias anddiscrimination against
2SLGBTQIA+ people.
Empowering community members with skillsis simply not enough of a strategy.
Pride at Work Canada operates as amember services agency for employers,
offering institutional education andguidance to organizations that make a
(21:42):
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The vision we share with ouremployer members is a Canada,
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For more information aboutour membership and programs,
please visit prideatwork.ca.
(22:08):
And of course, most of all,
we'd like to thank you for joiningus for this important discussion.
For more information about today'sguest links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Private Work Canada's website.
Thank you so much for coming on thisjourney with us to uncover belonging.
I'm on the apps like a lot of us.And yeah, I was looking, you know,
scrolling through, I was like,
he's kind of cute and the personhappened to be Chinese.
I thought he was kind of cute and Iwas interested. So I message, Hey,
how's it going? And then he messagesback, oh, not into Black guys, sorry,
just a preference. And my immediateknee-jerk reaction was, yeah,
a lot of Chinese guys just aren't intoBlack men. And then I remember thinking,
(00:23):
huh, well you just useda massive broad brush,
on an entire group of people. Andthat's where I go back to empathy,
actively listening, questioning.
I'm Jade Pichette; They/Them.
And I'm Erin Davis. And Iuse the pronouns She and Her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories of unique voices
(00:46):
of what it means to belong.
And the journey to findingour authentic self.
Erin.
I am so excited today to introduceyou to Jefferson Darrell He/Him,
the founder and CEO of Breakfast
Culture.
I'm excited as well because Jeffersonand I had the opportunity to
connect and get to knoweach other a little bit.
(01:08):
And so I'm excited to doa bit of a deeper dive.
Yeah, definitely.
I met Jefferson early in the pandemiconline when Pride at Work Canada was
trying to pivot to really try and findenough virtual content cuz we had been
doing so much in person.
And so Jefferson was one of the people Igot introduced to very early on because
(01:28):
of his background in diversity,equity and inclusion work,
as well as his specific knowledge interms of how you do that in a marketing
context. And so his marketingbackground and so he did a really,
really amazing webinar for us calledWoke Marketing Rainbow Edition that our
partners loved.
He's also become our Anti-Blackracism action plan consultant
(01:51):
and he's become one of the people thatI really value and admire in my network.
And so I'm so excited to introduce youtoday to Jefferson and just like myself
is calling in from Tkaronto or Toronto today.
And so welcome Jefferson.
Thank you Jade. Happy to be here.
(02:12):
This is Erin and I'm recording this afterthe fact to provide our listeners with
a content note and let you know inadvance that throughout the conversation
Jefferson shares experiencesof suicidal ideation as well as
Anti-Black racism.
We wanted to take a quick pause andencourage you to check in with yourself so
that you can decide whether this iscontent you're able to engage with at this
(02:34):
moment before listening on.
Tell us a little bit about yourstory. How did you get into this work?
Thank you, Erin. Happy toshare my story. It's funny,
I often hear how did youget into this line of work?
And I can't speak for everyone obviously,
but I suspect a lot of people who listento this. But I think we're always,
(02:54):
always just doing this becausewe have to for our own survival.
Mm-hmm
part of it was my own life experience,
lived experiences working within anorganization when there was quite a bit of
um, racism, specifically Anti-Black racism.
And through that I also found out aboutsome of the gender discrimination that
was happening there. Homophobiathat was happening there as well.
(03:16):
And I end up becoming this go-to voicefor the marginalized peoples in the
workplace.
Tell me more about that.
So I spent eight yearsin this organization.
I always say I spent seven years too long.
It was not a good time forme. I was extremely depressed,
(03:37):
frankly to the point ofI felt suicidal - Sunday
morning at 3:00 AM was always the worst.
I would literally wake up in a cold sweat,
dreaded going into work the nextday that said, when I say suicidal,
I need to qualify this. Um,
I was in therapy for about three or fouryears and I was going through all of
this. My therapist kept asking me, doyou have a plan to take your own life?
(03:59):
To be clear, I did not havea plan to take my own life.
I felt more hopeless than helpless.Mm-hmm.
behavioral psychologist WillSmith, not Will Smith
but the psychologist Will Smith,he actually did a study on this,
he called it Racial Battle Fatigueor RBF. Mm-hmm
And it talks about the physical,
mental and emotional impact that racism,
(04:22):
especially systemic racism,
but racism period can have onracialized peoples within the workplace.
And I was a very much a textbook ofexample of that and it was a horrible,
horrible dark time in my life.
And I realized I don't want anyoneelse to have to go through what I went
through.
And that's one of the reasons why Igot into this work cuz I'm very much,
you know what if I'm gonnacomplain about something,
(04:42):
let me come to the table with a solution.
And I took all my learning and myexperience and I put it into um,
Breakfast Culture.
So maybe a bit of a follow up Jefferson,
you kind of at the beginningof your story shared this,
I would say sense of exclusion inthe role that you were doing Right.
And have you found a greater senseof belonging now that you have this
(05:04):
organization and you get to diveinto this work every single day?
Um, there's that old saying that whenwe don't get a seat at the table,
we'll often leave and make our own tables.And that's basically what I've done.
I hear that.
No without its own challengesbecause I operated at a
C-suite level,
but I was never given the title and I wasnever given the compensation that goes
(05:26):
with that. Right.
So I never received that goldenparachute to start my own business.
I'm bootstrapping it all myself.
Totally.
Um, it's funny,
I received a really good piece ofadvice when I first started my company.
I make sure you partner with peoplewhose values align with yours.
And that's something we do look for.
And if anyone you're thinkingof partnering with their values don't align with
(05:48):
yours, no matter how attractivethat partnership looks,
don't partner with them becauseit's not going to end well.
Yeah. And you're also speaking to,
to not only sort of the words on thepaper but also living those values
every single day, right?
Oh.
Exactly.
It's kind of exciting when you thinkabout it from the perspective of like,
okay,
I get to start from a place of what'sgonna work for me so I have this sense of
(06:12):
belonging and how can I bring otherpeople into this space so they can
have that sense of belonging ratherthan the opposite of try to fit yourself
into this system.
That's one of the three Bs of what wecall our um, well marketing offering.
Be authentic to your brand. If itdoesn't make sense for your brand,
that's okay.
You're not necessarily gonna speak toeverybody and if it doesn't make sense for
(06:34):
your brand, don't try to fit yourself in,
as you said where it doesn't make sense.
Absolutely.
Um, the other two bees arebe present and be prepared.
Well that's for another discussion.
I'm gonna turn it over to Jade andgive them the opportunity to dive a bit
deeper.
Thank you Erin.
I appreciate the depth ofvulnerability and many pieces that
(06:58):
connect to some of my ownhistories of a previous workplace.
And this quote really stuck in my head,
the James Baldwin quote of the placein which outfit will not exist until I
make it.
Exactly.
At least for the three of us.We've had to go outside of um,
traditional spaces to createthat space for ourselves.
(07:18):
But we're helping and trying tocreate that space for others.
So what are some of the barriers thatyou see in terms of actually bringing
that space from these consulting spaces,
nonprofit spaces to a spacewhere we can actually see
people who look like us who havethe similar experiences as us?
(07:39):
I find one of the biggest barriers is Ihave a lot of clients approach Breakfast
Culture with a solution already. Hmm.They've already made the decision of,
well we wanna do training versuslet's talk to our people first,
see what we might want toactually train them. All right.
So I had one client that came to usin 2020 during the Racial awakening.
They skewed heavily with anumber of white employees.
(08:02):
So just anecdotallyobservationally, they realized okay,
we may have some problems from a systemicracism issue that didn't surprise them
and that came out in the data. Butwhat also came out in the data,
which completely surprised them,
was 40% of their staff had hiddendisabilities and they were just gobsmack.
They're like, wow, we had no idea. Eh.
(08:23):
The other piece that came outwas, um, majority of their um,
employees were under the age of 35 andanyone over the age of 35 felt like, oh,
so you're giving me the hey boomer.
So when it comes to training now basedon that data from what their people
actually told them, itactually informed the training.
So in addition to racism training,there needed to be ageism training,
there needed to ability training,they needed to review their policies,
(08:46):
their accessibility in termsof the overall organization. Mm-hmm
So that's where I say as I find that'sa barrier cuz a lot of times I have
clients reach out to Breakfast Cultureand they just wanna immediately go to
training. Skipping that step, thatfirst initial, let's collect some data.
I see this so often in thework that I do as well and I've
seen Aaron nodding as well. It issomething that's systemic, right?
(09:11):
And I think sometimes it'scoming from a place of,
well we just need to do something becauseotherwise we're gonna be perceived as
doing nothing. Oh yeah.
It really is something that a lot oforganizations need to rethink. You know,
how do we actually start at thebeginning and look at this from an
intersectional perspective and recognizethat there's no one issue to be able to
(09:33):
make a community feel completely included.
You hit the nail on the head. Ourcourses are built to build on each other.
We start with diversity and Englishin 1 0 1, very foundational.
Our second course we recommend afterthat we call it power and privilege.
That's breakfast cultures approachto unconscious bias training.
We flip it and we talk about how weall benefit from forms of privilege.
(09:54):
For example, in D and I 101,
I do a quick little privilege test whereI put up seven very common privileges
in North America. I'm sure we canthink of them now. Or you male.
Are you straight? Are you white?Are you cis? Are you able-bodied?
Do you have so economic privilege andwere you bought up in the Christian fate
at fought an exhaustive listfor me as a Black gay man.
I score five out of seven on thatlist. And that's a high score.
(10:17):
And this is what I'm saying, we allbenefit from some form of privilege.
And then that sort of third sectionof exercises, we break them down.
So we call them ally as a verb.
We have a racism edition where we justlook at white privilege and how white
people, men, women, trans, etcetera benefit in today's society.
We have a women's edition where we lookat male privilege and the patriarchy of
misogyny and how men,
(10:38):
black gay trans men even benefitfrom male privilege in society.
Definitely.
And if anyone comes in, well whatabout, what about, you're right,
there are other people whodon't have these privileges.
The only one who wins when we get intoOppression Olympics is the oppressor.
Agreed. And so that's why Ialways like to tell my clients,
I don't care who you are, butbefore we do ally as a verb,
(11:00):
we are doing power and privilegefirst to help avoid that.
What about is a and Oppression Olympics.
Yeah. That's so important.
I know one of the mostpowerful anti-racism trainings that was like designed
by Chanelle Gallant, it wascalled uh, Beyond White Tears.
And she got a lot of support.
One of the things that shekept going back to in that was,
(11:22):
let's make sure to reaffirm,
what about looking at that issuespecifically? So when it came to racism,
you know, as a white person,
I may be a disabled transfemme and I could go on,
but what about theexperience of a trans femme of
color who's disabled in that sameexperience and really needing to focus on
(11:47):
that.
So making sure that people have kindof this broader understanding of power,
privilege, how it interacts in the world,
how we all have privileges but thatthings can interact differently when those
different privileges andoppressions interact. Exactly.
So I'm hearing like lookat the broader picture,
step back and then focusin on specific forms of
(12:10):
marginalization. What other thingshave you seen that work really,
really well to make kindof that systemic change?
Biggest thing I'd say is empathy. Mm-hmm.
Number two, active listening. Hmm.
Don't you listen tounderstand not to counter.
And then number three is questioning,like questioning our own biases.
(12:34):
Right.
May I share a quicklittle story? Of course.
I'm on the apps like a lot of usand yeah, I was looking, you know,
scrolling through, I was like,
oh he's kind of cute andthe person happened to be Chinese.
My thought was kind of cute, namewas interested. So I message, Hey,
how's it going? And then he messagesback, oh not into Black guys, sorry,
just a preference. And my immediateknee-jerk reaction was, yeah,
(12:57):
a lot of Chinese guys just aren't intoBlack men. And then I remember thinking,
huh, well you just useda massive broad brush,
on an entire group of people. Andthat's where I go back to empathy,
actively listening, questioning.And I thought, you know what?
That's a racist thought. Why did Ithink that? Where did that come from?
And learning from it andmoving forward. Mm-hmm.
(13:17):
I like to describe that as thevoice of the oppressor in all of us.
But really that second voice,that second moment where you say,
oh wait, why did I think that?That's who we truly are though.
And so I think there's hope whenwe take that moment back and um,
move beyond it.
And I don't think we do enoughof that in today's society.
(13:39):
I think we're just looking at thingsthrough our own cultural lens.
Agreed.
And that's the part that um, Ifind is kind of scaring me now.
Mm-hmm.
There is fear that is happening inthe world, but there's also hope too.
And I thank you for that cuzI often forget about the.
Hope. Right. And that'swhy I still do this work.
I love that.
(14:00):
So I'm gonna pass it back over to Erin.
Thanks Jade. And I'm just uh,
sitting here reflecting on allof that hope Jefferson for you.
What are we working towards?What are we trying to get to?
What does that look like for you?
Ultimately I think empathy. Mm-hmm.
(14:20):
scenarios and situations. Um,which is often very hard to do.
Some of these lessonsI've learned personally,
case from point 15 years ago is diagnosedwith a very rare neurological disorder
that left me paralyzedfrom the waist down.
I literally had to relearn how to walk.
And it's funny cuz I startedseeing how people treated
me when I had these mobility issuesand it really taught me a lot
(14:42):
about ableism. Mm-hmm.
And I remember friends of mine invitedme to a restaurant. I was hunched over,
had to use two canes, literally.
I could not walk and andchew gum at the same time.
I had to think about every singlemoment putting my foot down,
rolling from the heel into the toes,
making sure my weight's distributedthere as my balance. Good, okay.
I can lift up my next legnow. And the hostess said, oh,
(15:04):
do you know what tableyou might be looking for?
And spoke to me as if I was stupid. Ijust looked at her without skipping.
But I said, I just can'twalk. I'm not dumb.
And that's where I go back to empathyand just put yourself in other people's
shoes. Whether that's women,whether that's trans people,
whether that's racialized people. And Ijust don't think we do enough of that.
So in terms of working towards,
(15:25):
that's what I'd say is a spaceI think we're trying to get to.
And then also from an organizational lens,
let me start looking at systemic issues.
Has a lot of the challengesthat marginalized groups face
often do you fall under systemicissues based on a lot of
these individual assumptions?
100%. And I think we don'tcreate the time to reflect,
(15:49):
we don't create the time to haveempathy, if that makes sense.
And I'm worried about that.
So I think a reminder forfolks to how are you actioning?
Rather than just talking about it.
As Jade quoted earlier, I oftendo quote James Baldwin myself.
And one of my favoritequotes from James Baldwin is,
I can't believe what you saybecause I see what you do. Mm-hmm.
(16:11):
Totally.
So what do we need to focus onto build a more inclusive world?
One thing I've recognizedin the D and I space,
a lot of it is actually marketing.
Yeah.
A lot of it's really public relations,which is my core background.
Public relations at its core isabout changing public perception,
(16:34):
getting people to think differentlyso they'll act differently.
In the past I used purchase poweras in that action was buy my widget,
whether that was theater tickets or watchthe television network that I worked
for or buy the soap that I was selling.
Now the action is I want you to startthinking differently and thinking and
questioning yourself in termsof why am I thinking this way?
Where is this coming from?
(16:55):
Yeah.
And I think if we start focusingon that more as individuals,
I think the world would be amuch better place personally.
Absolutely.
We've talked for quite a while,
it's such a great conversation andI know we can talk a lot longer,
but I wanna throw us into the rapid fire.
So do we feel ready atfirst some rapid fire?
(17:16):
Sure.
if you could recommendone book, what would it.
Be? It's a book called What If ShortStories to Spark Inclusion and Diversity
Dialogue. It's writtenby Steve Al Robbins PhD.
What I love about this book is for peoplewho are not familiar with the D and I
space, it's very accessible.
(17:38):
I love that. And I actuallyhave not read that book.
So it is now officially on my list.So next question, what brings you joy?
No matter what?
I think it's springing time with my niece.
We'll just go on adventures and we'llgo check out like art exhibits or we'll
go check out dance things. We'lljust do something fun together.
(17:59):
We'll sometimes just cook together even.
I love that.
Yeah. That's absolutely beautiful.Now I want you to be my uncle.
So what is your theme song for today?
It's been an oldie but agoodie from the 1990s Love Inc.
You are a superstar. Reach for the sky,
hold your head up hard fortonight and every night you are a
(18:24):
superstar. Anyways, I can go.
Side note for everyone if you're able to.
Getting up and dancing is just, Ithink another opportunity for joy.
But back to the questions.
Who is someone that inspiresyou but doesn't receive
enough credit?
Two people came to mind.
So one is my friend Ken might be shootingmyself in the foot. Will I say this?
(18:48):
But a man by the name of Randall Pearce.
So our final question,
what is one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners.
When you have those biased thoughts,
those discriminatory thoughts,those racist thoughts,
those homophobic thoughts, thosetransphobic thoughts. We all have them.
(19:08):
Like your lines yourself. If youdon't, I want you to stop, pause,
and question where is thatcoming from? What's happening?
Why am I thinking what hascaused me to have this thought?
That's an amazing one.Thank you so much Jefferson,
for joining us today.It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you.
(19:31):
So great to hear Jefferson in remindingus about how important empathy is and
active listening and thisidea of questioning ourselves.
Where is that bias coming from? Becausewe all have it. We can't eliminate it,
but we can definitely interrupt it. SoI appreciate his perspectives there.
Yeah, I share everything that you saidand we've talked about this in previous
(19:55):
episodes. We're becoming more andmore divided. Mm-hmm.
everybody's just kind of going to theirown sources. Mm-hmm.
including probably many of our listenerswho come here because they share a
similar belief system that you and I doErin even though we have very different
experiences. Right.
One of my go-tos is the SevenHabits of Highly Effective People
(20:16):
and Habit five is actually seekfirst to understand and then
to be understood.
And that goes through everythingthat Jefferson was saying and
frankly how he works in theworld. So I've been grateful for.
That. Me too.
Thank you so much for tuningin. We hope you enjoyed,
(20:38):
learned and uncovereddeeper belonging with us.
Connect with us on LinkedIn and letus know what part of today's episode
resonated most with you.
Many thanks to our production team,
Editor and Producer ShawnAhmed Communications,
Luis Augusto Nobre andproduction support, Connor Pion.
(21:01):
We would also like to thank and sharebrief message from our sponsors,
Pride at Work Canada.
For 2SLGBTQIA+
people in Canada toconfront today's economic challenges.
They need good jobs with risingincomes because of stigma,
(21:22):
stereotypes, bias anddiscrimination against
2SLGBTQIA+ people.
Empowering community members with skillsis simply not enough of a strategy.
Pride at Work Canada operates as amember services agency for employers,
offering institutional education andguidance to organizations that make a
(21:42):
commitment to supporting2SLGBTQIA+ inclusion.
The vision we share with ouremployer members is a Canada,
where every individual can achievetheir full potential at work,
regardless of gender expression, genderidentity, and sexual orientation.
For more information aboutour membership and programs,
please visit prideatwork.ca.
(22:08):
And of course, most of all,
we'd like to thank you for joiningus for this important discussion.
For more information about today'sguest links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Private Work Canada's website.
Thank you so much for coming on thisjourney with us to uncover belonging.
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