July 27, 2023 • 22 mins
Join co-hosts Erin and Jade as they engage in a thought-provoking and heartfelt conversation with Anishinaabe Grandmother Kim Wheatley, delving into the profound themes of healing through ceremony, reclaiming Indigenous identity, and challenging the notion of "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion." In this powerful episode, Grandmother Kim fearlessly explores Canada's ongoing cultural genocide of Indigenous people and the importance of continuous learning and growth as we seek rooted truths and action toward reconciliation on stolen land. Stay tuned for Part 2 to continue this inspiring journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin (she/her) (00:00):
Jade, there is so much richness in everything that she's saying.
(00:04):
So I'm thinking that we makethis episode into a two-parter.
Jade (they/them) (00:08):
My God, I think you're so right on that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:13):
I'm Jade Pichette ( they / them )
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:15):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns she and her.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Welcome to Uncovering Belonging, (00:18):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:21):
a podcast that explores the professional
and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:26):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Jade (they/them) (00:31):
Well, Welcome, Kim.
Kim (00:32):
Hello to both of you and thank you so much for welcoming me.
Jade (they/them) (00:36):
Traditional Anishinaabe grandmother Kim
Wheatley, ( she / her ) is Ojibwe,Potawatomi, and Caribbean in ancestry.
She is a band member of the ShawanagaFirst Nation, located on the shores
of Georgian Bay on Robinson-HuronTreaty territories and is Turtle Clan.
She carries the spirit name “Head orLeader of the Fireflower” and has worked
(00:58):
for three decades with Indigenous andnon-Indigenous communities across Canada.
As a multi-award winning speaker forover three decades, Kim has appeared
locally, nationally and internationallyin books, magazines, television,
radio and numerous news articles.
She is a published author, handdrummer, singer, water walker,
(01:19):
artist and ceremonial practitioner.
Kim is committed to forging goodrelationships based on acts of
reconciliation that honor thepast, connect to the present,
and contribute to the future.
And just as a content note forour listeners, that she will be
mentioning issues of colonizationviolence later in the program.
(01:39):
It is such a pleasure to have youjoin us we've work together now
a couple times, which has beenabsolutely so lovely, including
Pride at Work Canada's Spark event,
so you got to meet my co-host Erin there.
So Erin, do you want to start us off
Erin (she/her) (01:55):
Absolutely.
So welcome, Kim.
So grateful to have you here with usand I had the absolute pleasure of
hearing you present at the Pride atWork Canada Spark event, and I would
love for our audience to just heara little bit more about your story.
Kim (02:10):
You know, our journeys is what people will remember.
your story.
And my story began by becoming amom and having to advocate for
my children who were not beingaccepted as community members
because of their biracial background.
And we know that identity is thefoundation upon which a lot of people
decide to judge and/or include you.
(02:31):
and in school, what I saw was a repetitionof ostracizing of my children who
spoke up about Indigenous identity.
And, as an Indigenous woman inthis country, I'm very aware that
our stories are still the greatunknown, even though we're in 2023.
And I'm very aware that we are very muchcuriosity and you know, if you're not
wearing your leather and feathers, somehowyou are less than as an Indigenous person.
(02:55):
And we have this historic burden ofblood quantum in the Indian Act that
has really supported a colonizedapproach and expectation about who
we are and how we will present.
So I started advocating for my children.
I wanted to protect them.
And I also wanted to insert authenticvoice in a space and place where
it was really quite absent, whichwas in the public school system.
(03:18):
So this was in the late 80s.
And I found that my children were beingpunished for speaking out and speaking up.
And I was proud of myself that theywould do that because I must have
raised them right in some ways.
But it was also frustrating for me becauseI experienced my entire education through
being silent and hiding my identity.
And my children wereproud of their identity.
(03:39):
And so they would stand up and correctthe teacher on terminologies or
identifying words and so I startedvolunteering to go in and just
offer some educational workshops.
This is what we call ourselves.
This is what we look like.
This is what regalia is.
This is the words we use, not only tosupport my children but to really improve
the educational experience for a schoolthat had a high Indigenous population.
(04:00):
And while they did have some Indigenousteachers there, they were busy doing
the work that they were hired for.
They didn't have time for kind of themore cultural sensitization slant.
And it was a school that was primarilya school of great diversity and
colour, but , a lack of awareness.
And then that expanded intoevents and eventually got to
universities and colleges and.
(04:21):
I just started getting invited byword of mouth to come and speak
and then actually getting paid.
Realizing that I need to takeit to the next level by actually
having some sort of a handle.
Everybody wants a title, right?
And so I chose the title, CulturalConsultant on cultural, because
that's my area of expertise.
I came into my own healingand wellness and reclaiming of
(04:44):
my identity through ceremony.
after experiencing a great deal ofstruggle and harm and diminishment as
an Indigenous woman, but also as anAnishinaabe woman who fully embraces not
only her identity, but found a place ofbelonging and healing within that identity
that is somewhat normalized today.
But when I first started, peoplewere still searching, and we had
(05:07):
the challenges of not having publicpresence and public invitations and
no real foundation to engage withbecause there was just a lack of it.
So I found a niche, I jumped in and I'vegrown in that work and here I am today
in 2023, over 30 years later, you know,considered somewhat of an expert realms
(05:29):
and an active participant in ceremonystill to ensure that what I'm doing is,
you know, right on the pulse of truthand what's happening in our communities.
And then we have this newterm that's come out, right?
Diversity, equity and inclusion.
I feel like this term is well intended,but it is another smokescreen to again
(05:49):
divide and kind of put on the back burner.
Well, ticked that box and Idon't want to be a box tick.
So I'm challenging
Erin (she/her) (05:57):
Thank you so much for sharing your story and this genuine
connection to becoming a mother seeinghow your children were experiencing
the world and being there to helpthem find that sense of belonging.
And by doing that, you found your own.
And I have two kids as well, and wecould probably have a really lengthy
conversation on the biracial conversation,'cause that's my lived experience.
(06:21):
And it's always been , howdo I live between two worlds?
And maybe for your children, that'spart of their, teaching that they
can offer and create the changethat we want to see in this world.
Kim (06:33):
Agreed, agreed.
Erin (she/her) (06:34):
One of the things that you said, and I find it an interesting
concept in the space of diversity,equity, inclusion, because I say
it myself that I'm not an expert,
but I'm on the journey tolearn with you and through you.
And so tell us more about this ideawhere you say, "I'm somewhat of an
expert," yet you have 30 years ofexperience you just spoke to so what
(06:56):
does what does that mean to you?
Kim (06:57):
So the journey's continuous.
It's not a static journey, right?
You have to breathe lifeinto it all the time.
As people evolve, grow, and learnand become a bit more familiar,
perhaps a bit more educated, a bitmore rooted in what the truth is, what
you find is you have to bring it upto the next level and the next level.
And the levels are endless.
I mean, I think I'm going tolearn for the rest of my life.
(07:18):
This is why I stillparticipate in ceremony.
And every time I go, even if it's ateaching I think I've heard before, I am
receiving it in a different way becauseI'm a different person at this moment.
I can pull out differentconcepts and understandings.
I can evaluate where I was and whereI am now in a way that requires that
constant engagement, that constantattendance, that constant embracing
(07:42):
so that growth is continuous.
And we and we see thisreflected in the natural world.
So when you look at the natural world,You have your spring, your summer, your
fall, your winter, and you see how theplants change throughout those seasons.
I feel like we're like plants, youknow, and we evolve throughout the
seasons and then we come back again.
And over time, you know, thatlittle sapling becomes this
gargantuan beautiful tree.
And I feel like I'm just getting tothe point, especially at the age and
(08:04):
stage I'm at after 30 years, whereI actually have a nice big tree.
You know, I'm not a little saplinganymore and I have a lot of branches
and I have a lot of leaves And I havea lot of seeds to offer because at
the end of the day everything that I'vecome to learn came from somebody who
came before me and somebody who breathedlife and lived life aligned with those
values and with those concepts and withthose challenges to insert our voice
(08:29):
in our presence in a contemporary senseand where I feel there's a big gap
is we're only thinking about history.
So I'm not gonna forever be that sapling.
You know, I've become this treewith a nice solid trunk and lots of
leaves and branches you know, thediversity of who I am is kind of
captured in that analogy in some ways.
And there's this pushback in the Canadianmainstream mind, one, not to give up the
(08:53):
historic amnesia that makes everybodyfeel so comfortable and secure 'cause
then they don't have to address thewounding and the healing that needs
to take place and the responsibilitythat caused us to be in this position
where I had to step forward and say, Ineed to insert my voice to help here.
And the resistance for change and theidea that we can't be contemporary
citizens without the leather andfeather accoutrements is ridiculous.
(09:17):
Every other culture is allowed to evolveon the earth and they have to walk
around you know with their traditionaloutfits and housing and way of life to
be accepted and yet the expectation forIndigenous people at large is this very
great comfort in homogenizing who we are.
Well, you don't sound like one, youdon't look like one, you don't dress
like one, you're pretty educated for one.
(09:38):
And get a lot of this kind of reflection,which shows a lack of rootedness and
growth in foundational truths andthe brilliance of who we are and the
great diversity of who we are today.
every realm, every realm that you couldimagine as a job or an educational
space or whatever it may be.
We are everywhere, but we're not runningaround saying, "I'm Indigenous first."
(10:00):
What we're doing is inserting ourway of knowing in a contemporary
realm and kind of exemplifyinganother way of knowing first.
And that, of course, thatother way of knowing comes from
Indigeneity as the foundation.
But I find it so frustrating, you know,to go to a school in 2023, and the
children want to go and see what horseI rode in on or how big is my teepee.
(10:23):
And then you can see the failure inyour seed planting, because this is the
second time you've come to this school.
So what did the teachers do lastyear, in preparation for me?
And how did they learn?
And,
you know,
How did they prepare the studentsfor our contemporary contributions?
And not only that, but the greatdiversity of how we present.
You know, so many times,I'm not responsible for my
(10:46):
genes, but I have curly hair.
And so many times people ask, well, Ithought Native people had straight hair.
Why do you have curly hair?
And then there's this kind ofrabbit hole, you go down, well,
you're not really Indigenous enough.
And then we have the struggleof pretendianism, you
know, that's on the rise.
And this is the latest almost witchhunt that's happening externally
(11:06):
and internally in our communitiesthat is really again creating a
silencing and a dismissal of authenticvoice and another way of knowing.
And when it comes to our childrenwho have biracial identities, can you
imagine how much more magnified thatis, where they are being forced to
accept being in one place or the other.
And we know this, especially when it comesalong conversations about gender, right?
(11:29):
We have two genders that peopleare supposed to align with.
And in our culturalconcepts, we don't have that.
We multiple genders.
So for me, it's like a no-brainer.
But we still have to assert ourselvesin the world as some sort of an identity
that makes others feel comfortableand may not reflect our actual
internal truth and sense of belonging.
(11:51):
My children and my grandchildrencomfortable with both of lineage
and how that dynamic works.
And they feel like they should fluidlybe able to travel between those without
saying, "Well, you're not Black enough.
Well, you're not Indigenous enough.
Well, well, well."
Who gets to decide that?
You should be able to assert that inyour own right not only should you
(12:12):
be able to assert it, but you shouldbe able to walk it back as to why.
You know, put the onus inthe other person's lap to
learn rather than to judge.
And that's hopefully what I'm doingin the work that I do, is I give
you the tools to learn so thatyou're not coming front-facing
with judgment and expectation.
You're opening your heart to receivethe heart speak that we're offering
(12:32):
and the encouragement to embrace us ashow, you know, we, present ourselves
Erin (she/her) (12:38):
I love that concept of heart speak so much.
If only we could find a placeto always start from there.
I think it would change our world Iwanna say thank you again for sharing
with us this foundation that you've built.
I can envision this tree, but thisacknowledgement that you are still
growing, that you're still learning, thatyou're still taking on these opportunities
(13:02):
and I know Jade wants to talk alittle bit more about the challenges
that we face working in this space.
And so I'll turn it over to you Jade.
Jade (they/them) (13:09):
Thank you, Erin.
So I know that you touched on some ofthe challenges with the school system
and that being kind of one of the impetusfor why you've got into this work, and
you're being brought into more and moreof these spaces And so I was wondering
what you see as some of the challengesof doing this work in the workplace.
(13:29):
And I think you'vetouched on some of them.
You've touched on homogenization,you've touched on tokenization, you've
touched on pretendians or peoplewho are pretending to be Indigenous.
and so certainly those are some ofthe things that I'm sure are some of
the challenges, but do you want toexpand on any of those or are there
others that people should be aware of?
Kim (13:49):
Oh, Jade, you know, the list is long.
And those just come off thetop of my head, because those
are probably the regular thingsI encounter on a daily basis.
But you know, we've got all these reports,all these studies that have been done
on Indigenous people to try and helpthem overcome, basically, cultural
genocide in this country as mandatedand funded by, you know, our governance
(14:11):
system
and we're not going to forget aboutthat, You know as, we continue to
unearth children's bodies in thesegraves that are unmarked and unrecorded,
and we ask questions, you know,like, who's accountable for this?
And I always ask, what stories, whatgifts did we miss in that process?
We've got the Missing and MurderedIndigenous Women and Girls report.
(14:31):
We've got the Truth and Reconciliationreport with 94 calls to action.
Most people in Canada feel like thisis Indigenous work, this is Indigenous
stuff, it has nothing to do withus, we don't need to do any work.
Most people have not read those, letalone Coles Notes versions of the calls
to action to manifest real meaningfulchange, not only for us to receive
healing, but for Canadians at large tonormalize our continued presence, because
(14:56):
the idea that we are a disappearingrace and that somehow we're just going
to be gone has not been successful.
Resilience is magnified in our communitieswith all the harms committed against us,
over the last 150 years has not worked.
We're still here.
You know, the residentialschools didn't work.
The assimilation, theIndian Act is not working.
(15:16):
It's being challenged.
It's one of the most revisedracist acts in the world.
You know, the Indian Act is whatapartheid in South Africa was framed
upon and that has since been dismantled.
But in Canada, we're still controlledby this act that is dehumanizing and
archaic and really breathes life intothe idea that we are disappearing.
Our languages are disappearing, our peopleare disappearing, our elders are dying.
(15:39):
and there's not a lotof hope seeded in that.
But , I want to challenge that.
We're still here, we're brilliant,we have things to say, we're
educated, we're articulate, wedon't all live on the majority of
us live in cities, we havesomething to say about everything.
But the most important thing thatCanadians need to remember is that we
are sovereign citizens We are not part ofthe melting pot or the diversity pools.
(16:01):
We have our own unique standingbecause all of Canada is built
on stolen land, and Canada willnever be able to repay us for that.
Canada also holds billions ofdollars, trillions I think now,
in monies as a trust for us thatwe can't even access freely.
We are still ostracized if we live onreserve in these places of forgetting.
(16:22):
Most people don't know that just inOntario alone, there's like 135 First
Nations communities and the greatdiversity of who we are and the languages
and the identities and, you know, ourcosmology is too much for most people
to begin uncovering and wading through.
And you don't have to do that.
We're here.
Let us help you.
Let us make it appropriate for you.
(16:43):
Let us introduce you to who youwould most commonly interact with.
So in southern Ontario, Anishinaabeand Haudenosaunee people are two of
the largest language speaking groups
so get to know us and learnwhat we call ourselves.
You know, normalizing another languageis difficult, but I'll tell you this, in
150 years, well, I guess in the last 500years, we've learned all of the different
(17:05):
languages that are spoken around theworld, how people dress, how they eat,
how they pray, but not even a micropercentage in this country has learned
one of our languages, can identify anation of people and speak about it with
some sort of comfort and confidence orspeak to it, not about it, because really
nothing about us without us, right?
It's our job to do that.
But, you know, to be able to show trueallyship by having that proficiency.
(17:28):
The two recognized languages,official languages, are French
and English in this country.
That comes from France and England.
They have their countries.
We have over 60 spokenlanguages in this country.
We have lots of choices.
Not even one of them is recognizedas an official language.
Now, how could that be in ourhome as sovereign nations?
There's zero recognition of us.
(17:50):
The upheaval that we had overJully Black's changing of one
word in the national anthem showedthat we are ready for change.
.. Jade (they/them) (18:01):
In case you're wondering, this is in reference to
the NBA All-Star Game traditionallythe lyrics said "home and
native land" and was changed to.
Kim (18:25):
the truth in changing just one word was powerful.
and so, when I talk about challengesand when I talk about obstacles,
I'm not the only one who's doing it.
and not all of us get a space in placelike this platform to share our ideas.
And these come from ourbeliefs, not just our passions.
They come from absolute truthsthat are rooted in a historical
(18:48):
colonial bank of just abuse, youknow, continued genocidal agendas.
And it doesn't matter if webecome politicians and get
voted into our position.
The system itself is dysfunctional.
It needs a rework.
And it's not working for Canadiansat large, as we saw in the last
election, where they had thelowest voter turnout in history.
(19:11):
And I think that's only going to continue.
When people are ready for change, youhave to be ready as a country to
hold a sense of accountabilityabout that, and then move forward
with actual meaningful changes.
And I feel like we havetwo ears in one mouth.
So, you know, I always say inteachings, we should listen
twice as much as we speak.
But I feel like Canadians actlike they have three mouths.
(19:32):
They're always talking, butthey're not doing anything.
You have two feet, putone foot in front of
You know, use those as well.
feel I don't know what to do to help.
You can use your voice.
You have privilege and power beyondmost Indigenous people in this country
to some degree, because you're notsubject and subjugated by the Indian
Act and by your sheer identity.
(19:53):
You know, people can come from all overthe earth here and they're going to
get food, they're going to have accessto water, they're going to get homes,
they're going to get medical care.
We, the original inhabitantsof these lands, struggle to
get those kinds of accesses.
It is limited and it is always racialized.
So how are we getting a step forward here?
(20:14):
You know, it's through talkingabout it again and again, reminding
people, My experience is not goingto be the same as yours based on
my physicality, how I present.
You know, as a person ofcolour, I am immediately judged.
and even in the educational system or themedical system or the policing system, I
know that I'm racialized all the time.
(20:34):
There's this assumption, justlooking at me without even hearing me
speak, that I am somehow less than.
And I don't believe in that.
The brilliance of this country, therelationship we've had for thousands
of years, puts us in a place ofexcellence We have so much to offer.
And just think how muchdifferent this country could be.
It could truly be inclusive.
(20:56):
It could truly embrace diversity.
It could truly be a spacewhere you could be safe.
I don't feel safe in this country.
I feel like I'm a target in lots of ways.
And I'm tired of that.
So this challenge of feeling unsafe,this challenge of wading through igneous,
this challenge of trying to spoon feedothers so that you can just begin to
(21:19):
even feed the seeds that I'm givingyou, is labor intensive, it's a huge
emotional load that I have to carry, andI can't see it diminishing anytime soon.
Erin (she/her) (21:30):
Jade, I'm gonna pause this for a second and I think we need
to make Kim's episode into two parts.
There is so much richness ineverything that she's saying.
I think this constitutes two episodes.
Jade (they/them) (21:43):
You're so right on that I mean, the amount that we've just
gone over in this last little bit I'mreally excited for us to have a part two.
Erin (she/her) (21:53):
Let's do it.
We're inviting you to join usfor part two, and until then,
stay curious, share this episode,and keep the conversation going.
Jade, there is so much richness in everything that she's saying.
(00:04):
So I'm thinking that we makethis episode into a two-parter.
Jade (they/them) (00:08):
My God, I think you're so right on that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:13):
I'm Jade Pichette ( they / them )
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:15):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns she and her.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Welcome to Uncovering Belonging, (00:18):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:21):
a podcast that explores the professional
and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:26):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Jade (they/them) (00:31):
Well, Welcome, Kim.
Kim (00:32):
Hello to both of you and thank you so much for welcoming me.
Jade (they/them) (00:36):
Traditional Anishinaabe grandmother Kim
Wheatley, ( she / her ) is Ojibwe,Potawatomi, and Caribbean in ancestry.
She is a band member of the ShawanagaFirst Nation, located on the shores
of Georgian Bay on Robinson-HuronTreaty territories and is Turtle Clan.
She carries the spirit name “Head orLeader of the Fireflower” and has worked
(00:58):
for three decades with Indigenous andnon-Indigenous communities across Canada.
As a multi-award winning speaker forover three decades, Kim has appeared
locally, nationally and internationallyin books, magazines, television,
radio and numerous news articles.
She is a published author, handdrummer, singer, water walker,
(01:19):
artist and ceremonial practitioner.
Kim is committed to forging goodrelationships based on acts of
reconciliation that honor thepast, connect to the present,
and contribute to the future.
And just as a content note forour listeners, that she will be
mentioning issues of colonizationviolence later in the program.
(01:39):
It is such a pleasure to have youjoin us we've work together now
a couple times, which has beenabsolutely so lovely, including
Pride at Work Canada's Spark event,
so you got to meet my co-host Erin there.
So Erin, do you want to start us off
Erin (she/her) (01:55):
Absolutely.
So welcome, Kim.
So grateful to have you here with usand I had the absolute pleasure of
hearing you present at the Pride atWork Canada Spark event, and I would
love for our audience to just heara little bit more about your story.
Kim (02:10):
You know, our journeys is what people will remember.
your story.
And my story began by becoming amom and having to advocate for
my children who were not beingaccepted as community members
because of their biracial background.
And we know that identity is thefoundation upon which a lot of people
decide to judge and/or include you.
(02:31):
and in school, what I saw was a repetitionof ostracizing of my children who
spoke up about Indigenous identity.
And, as an Indigenous woman inthis country, I'm very aware that
our stories are still the greatunknown, even though we're in 2023.
And I'm very aware that we are very muchcuriosity and you know, if you're not
wearing your leather and feathers, somehowyou are less than as an Indigenous person.
(02:55):
And we have this historic burden ofblood quantum in the Indian Act that
has really supported a colonizedapproach and expectation about who
we are and how we will present.
So I started advocating for my children.
I wanted to protect them.
And I also wanted to insert authenticvoice in a space and place where
it was really quite absent, whichwas in the public school system.
(03:18):
So this was in the late 80s.
And I found that my children were beingpunished for speaking out and speaking up.
And I was proud of myself that theywould do that because I must have
raised them right in some ways.
But it was also frustrating for me becauseI experienced my entire education through
being silent and hiding my identity.
And my children wereproud of their identity.
(03:39):
And so they would stand up and correctthe teacher on terminologies or
identifying words and so I startedvolunteering to go in and just
offer some educational workshops.
This is what we call ourselves.
This is what we look like.
This is what regalia is.
This is the words we use, not only tosupport my children but to really improve
the educational experience for a schoolthat had a high Indigenous population.
(04:00):
And while they did have some Indigenousteachers there, they were busy doing
the work that they were hired for.
They didn't have time for kind of themore cultural sensitization slant.
And it was a school that was primarilya school of great diversity and
colour, but , a lack of awareness.
And then that expanded intoevents and eventually got to
universities and colleges and.
(04:21):
I just started getting invited byword of mouth to come and speak
and then actually getting paid.
Realizing that I need to takeit to the next level by actually
having some sort of a handle.
Everybody wants a title, right?
And so I chose the title, CulturalConsultant on cultural, because
that's my area of expertise.
I came into my own healingand wellness and reclaiming of
(04:44):
my identity through ceremony.
after experiencing a great deal ofstruggle and harm and diminishment as
an Indigenous woman, but also as anAnishinaabe woman who fully embraces not
only her identity, but found a place ofbelonging and healing within that identity
that is somewhat normalized today.
But when I first started, peoplewere still searching, and we had
(05:07):
the challenges of not having publicpresence and public invitations and
no real foundation to engage withbecause there was just a lack of it.
So I found a niche, I jumped in and I'vegrown in that work and here I am today
in 2023, over 30 years later, you know,considered somewhat of an expert realms
(05:29):
and an active participant in ceremonystill to ensure that what I'm doing is,
you know, right on the pulse of truthand what's happening in our communities.
And then we have this newterm that's come out, right?
Diversity, equity and inclusion.
I feel like this term is well intended,but it is another smokescreen to again
(05:49):
divide and kind of put on the back burner.
Well, ticked that box and Idon't want to be a box tick.
So I'm challenging
Erin (she/her) (05:57):
Thank you so much for sharing your story and this genuine
connection to becoming a mother seeinghow your children were experiencing
the world and being there to helpthem find that sense of belonging.
And by doing that, you found your own.
And I have two kids as well, and wecould probably have a really lengthy
conversation on the biracial conversation,'cause that's my lived experience.
(06:21):
And it's always been , howdo I live between two worlds?
And maybe for your children, that'spart of their, teaching that they
can offer and create the changethat we want to see in this world.
Kim (06:33):
Agreed, agreed.
Erin (she/her) (06:34):
One of the things that you said, and I find it an interesting
concept in the space of diversity,equity, inclusion, because I say
it myself that I'm not an expert,
but I'm on the journey tolearn with you and through you.
And so tell us more about this ideawhere you say, "I'm somewhat of an
expert," yet you have 30 years ofexperience you just spoke to so what
(06:56):
does what does that mean to you?
Kim (06:57):
So the journey's continuous.
It's not a static journey, right?
You have to breathe lifeinto it all the time.
As people evolve, grow, and learnand become a bit more familiar,
perhaps a bit more educated, a bitmore rooted in what the truth is, what
you find is you have to bring it upto the next level and the next level.
And the levels are endless.
I mean, I think I'm going tolearn for the rest of my life.
(07:18):
This is why I stillparticipate in ceremony.
And every time I go, even if it's ateaching I think I've heard before, I am
receiving it in a different way becauseI'm a different person at this moment.
I can pull out differentconcepts and understandings.
I can evaluate where I was and whereI am now in a way that requires that
constant engagement, that constantattendance, that constant embracing
(07:42):
so that growth is continuous.
And we and we see thisreflected in the natural world.
So when you look at the natural world,You have your spring, your summer, your
fall, your winter, and you see how theplants change throughout those seasons.
I feel like we're like plants, youknow, and we evolve throughout the
seasons and then we come back again.
And over time, you know, thatlittle sapling becomes this
gargantuan beautiful tree.
And I feel like I'm just getting tothe point, especially at the age and
(08:04):
stage I'm at after 30 years, whereI actually have a nice big tree.
You know, I'm not a little saplinganymore and I have a lot of branches
and I have a lot of leaves And I havea lot of seeds to offer because at
the end of the day everything that I'vecome to learn came from somebody who
came before me and somebody who breathedlife and lived life aligned with those
values and with those concepts and withthose challenges to insert our voice
(08:29):
in our presence in a contemporary senseand where I feel there's a big gap
is we're only thinking about history.
So I'm not gonna forever be that sapling.
You know, I've become this treewith a nice solid trunk and lots of
leaves and branches you know, thediversity of who I am is kind of
captured in that analogy in some ways.
And there's this pushback in the Canadianmainstream mind, one, not to give up the
(08:53):
historic amnesia that makes everybodyfeel so comfortable and secure 'cause
then they don't have to address thewounding and the healing that needs
to take place and the responsibilitythat caused us to be in this position
where I had to step forward and say, Ineed to insert my voice to help here.
And the resistance for change and theidea that we can't be contemporary
citizens without the leather andfeather accoutrements is ridiculous.
(09:17):
Every other culture is allowed to evolveon the earth and they have to walk
around you know with their traditionaloutfits and housing and way of life to
be accepted and yet the expectation forIndigenous people at large is this very
great comfort in homogenizing who we are.
Well, you don't sound like one, youdon't look like one, you don't dress
like one, you're pretty educated for one.
(09:38):
And get a lot of this kind of reflection,which shows a lack of rootedness and
growth in foundational truths andthe brilliance of who we are and the
great diversity of who we are today.
every realm, every realm that you couldimagine as a job or an educational
space or whatever it may be.
We are everywhere, but we're not runningaround saying, "I'm Indigenous first."
(10:00):
What we're doing is inserting ourway of knowing in a contemporary
realm and kind of exemplifyinganother way of knowing first.
And that, of course, thatother way of knowing comes from
Indigeneity as the foundation.
But I find it so frustrating, you know,to go to a school in 2023, and the
children want to go and see what horseI rode in on or how big is my teepee.
(10:23):
And then you can see the failure inyour seed planting, because this is the
second time you've come to this school.
So what did the teachers do lastyear, in preparation for me?
And how did they learn?
And,
you know,
How did they prepare the studentsfor our contemporary contributions?
And not only that, but the greatdiversity of how we present.
You know, so many times,I'm not responsible for my
(10:46):
genes, but I have curly hair.
And so many times people ask, well, Ithought Native people had straight hair.
Why do you have curly hair?
And then there's this kind ofrabbit hole, you go down, well,
you're not really Indigenous enough.
And then we have the struggleof pretendianism, you
know, that's on the rise.
And this is the latest almost witchhunt that's happening externally
(11:06):
and internally in our communitiesthat is really again creating a
silencing and a dismissal of authenticvoice and another way of knowing.
And when it comes to our childrenwho have biracial identities, can you
imagine how much more magnified thatis, where they are being forced to
accept being in one place or the other.
And we know this, especially when it comesalong conversations about gender, right?
(11:29):
We have two genders that peopleare supposed to align with.
And in our culturalconcepts, we don't have that.
We multiple genders.
So for me, it's like a no-brainer.
But we still have to assert ourselvesin the world as some sort of an identity
that makes others feel comfortableand may not reflect our actual
internal truth and sense of belonging.
(11:51):
My children and my grandchildrencomfortable with both of lineage
and how that dynamic works.
And they feel like they should fluidlybe able to travel between those without
saying, "Well, you're not Black enough.
Well, you're not Indigenous enough.
Well, well, well."
Who gets to decide that?
You should be able to assert that inyour own right not only should you
(12:12):
be able to assert it, but you shouldbe able to walk it back as to why.
You know, put the onus inthe other person's lap to
learn rather than to judge.
And that's hopefully what I'm doingin the work that I do, is I give
you the tools to learn so thatyou're not coming front-facing
with judgment and expectation.
You're opening your heart to receivethe heart speak that we're offering
(12:32):
and the encouragement to embrace us ashow, you know, we, present ourselves
Erin (she/her) (12:38):
I love that concept of heart speak so much.
If only we could find a placeto always start from there.
I think it would change our world Iwanna say thank you again for sharing
with us this foundation that you've built.
I can envision this tree, but thisacknowledgement that you are still
growing, that you're still learning, thatyou're still taking on these opportunities
(13:02):
and I know Jade wants to talk alittle bit more about the challenges
that we face working in this space.
And so I'll turn it over to you Jade.
Jade (they/them) (13:09):
Thank you, Erin.
So I know that you touched on some ofthe challenges with the school system
and that being kind of one of the impetusfor why you've got into this work, and
you're being brought into more and moreof these spaces And so I was wondering
what you see as some of the challengesof doing this work in the workplace.
(13:29):
And I think you'vetouched on some of them.
You've touched on homogenization,you've touched on tokenization, you've
touched on pretendians or peoplewho are pretending to be Indigenous.
and so certainly those are some ofthe things that I'm sure are some of
the challenges, but do you want toexpand on any of those or are there
others that people should be aware of?
Kim (13:49):
Oh, Jade, you know, the list is long.
And those just come off thetop of my head, because those
are probably the regular thingsI encounter on a daily basis.
But you know, we've got all these reports,all these studies that have been done
on Indigenous people to try and helpthem overcome, basically, cultural
genocide in this country as mandatedand funded by, you know, our governance
(14:11):
system
and we're not going to forget aboutthat, You know as, we continue to
unearth children's bodies in thesegraves that are unmarked and unrecorded,
and we ask questions, you know,like, who's accountable for this?
And I always ask, what stories, whatgifts did we miss in that process?
We've got the Missing and MurderedIndigenous Women and Girls report.
(14:31):
We've got the Truth and Reconciliationreport with 94 calls to action.
Most people in Canada feel like thisis Indigenous work, this is Indigenous
stuff, it has nothing to do withus, we don't need to do any work.
Most people have not read those, letalone Coles Notes versions of the calls
to action to manifest real meaningfulchange, not only for us to receive
healing, but for Canadians at large tonormalize our continued presence, because
(14:56):
the idea that we are a disappearingrace and that somehow we're just going
to be gone has not been successful.
Resilience is magnified in our communitieswith all the harms committed against us,
over the last 150 years has not worked.
We're still here.
You know, the residentialschools didn't work.
The assimilation, theIndian Act is not working.
(15:16):
It's being challenged.
It's one of the most revisedracist acts in the world.
You know, the Indian Act is whatapartheid in South Africa was framed
upon and that has since been dismantled.
But in Canada, we're still controlledby this act that is dehumanizing and
archaic and really breathes life intothe idea that we are disappearing.
Our languages are disappearing, our peopleare disappearing, our elders are dying.
(15:39):
and there's not a lotof hope seeded in that.
But , I want to challenge that.
We're still here, we're brilliant,we have things to say, we're
educated, we're articulate, wedon't all live on the majority of
us live in cities, we havesomething to say about everything.
But the most important thing thatCanadians need to remember is that we
are sovereign citizens We are not part ofthe melting pot or the diversity pools.
(16:01):
We have our own unique standingbecause all of Canada is built
on stolen land, and Canada willnever be able to repay us for that.
Canada also holds billions ofdollars, trillions I think now,
in monies as a trust for us thatwe can't even access freely.
We are still ostracized if we live onreserve in these places of forgetting.
(16:22):
Most people don't know that just inOntario alone, there's like 135 First
Nations communities and the greatdiversity of who we are and the languages
and the identities and, you know, ourcosmology is too much for most people
to begin uncovering and wading through.
And you don't have to do that.
We're here.
Let us help you.
Let us make it appropriate for you.
(16:43):
Let us introduce you to who youwould most commonly interact with.
So in southern Ontario, Anishinaabeand Haudenosaunee people are two of
the largest language speaking groups
so get to know us and learnwhat we call ourselves.
You know, normalizing another languageis difficult, but I'll tell you this, in
150 years, well, I guess in the last 500years, we've learned all of the different
(17:05):
languages that are spoken around theworld, how people dress, how they eat,
how they pray, but not even a micropercentage in this country has learned
one of our languages, can identify anation of people and speak about it with
some sort of comfort and confidence orspeak to it, not about it, because really
nothing about us without us, right?
It's our job to do that.
But, you know, to be able to show trueallyship by having that proficiency.
(17:28):
The two recognized languages,official languages, are French
and English in this country.
That comes from France and England.
They have their countries.
We have over 60 spokenlanguages in this country.
We have lots of choices.
Not even one of them is recognizedas an official language.
Now, how could that be in ourhome as sovereign nations?
There's zero recognition of us.
(17:50):
The upheaval that we had overJully Black's changing of one
word in the national anthem showedthat we are ready for change.
.. Jade (they/them) (18:01):
In case you're wondering, this is in reference to
the NBA All-Star Game traditionallythe lyrics said "home and
native land" and was changed to.
Kim (18:25):
the truth in changing just one word was powerful.
and so, when I talk about challengesand when I talk about obstacles,
I'm not the only one who's doing it.
and not all of us get a space in placelike this platform to share our ideas.
And these come from ourbeliefs, not just our passions.
They come from absolute truthsthat are rooted in a historical
(18:48):
colonial bank of just abuse, youknow, continued genocidal agendas.
And it doesn't matter if webecome politicians and get
voted into our position.
The system itself is dysfunctional.
It needs a rework.
And it's not working for Canadiansat large, as we saw in the last
election, where they had thelowest voter turnout in history.
(19:11):
And I think that's only going to continue.
When people are ready for change, youhave to be ready as a country to
hold a sense of accountabilityabout that, and then move forward
with actual meaningful changes.
And I feel like we havetwo ears in one mouth.
So, you know, I always say inteachings, we should listen
twice as much as we speak.
But I feel like Canadians actlike they have three mouths.
(19:32):
They're always talking, butthey're not doing anything.
You have two feet, putone foot in front of
You know, use those as well.
feel I don't know what to do to help.
You can use your voice.
You have privilege and power beyondmost Indigenous people in this country
to some degree, because you're notsubject and subjugated by the Indian
Act and by your sheer identity.
(19:53):
You know, people can come from all overthe earth here and they're going to
get food, they're going to have accessto water, they're going to get homes,
they're going to get medical care.
We, the original inhabitantsof these lands, struggle to
get those kinds of accesses.
It is limited and it is always racialized.
So how are we getting a step forward here?
(20:14):
You know, it's through talkingabout it again and again, reminding
people, My experience is not goingto be the same as yours based on
my physicality, how I present.
You know, as a person ofcolour, I am immediately judged.
and even in the educational system or themedical system or the policing system, I
know that I'm racialized all the time.
(20:34):
There's this assumption, justlooking at me without even hearing me
speak, that I am somehow less than.
And I don't believe in that.
The brilliance of this country, therelationship we've had for thousands
of years, puts us in a place ofexcellence We have so much to offer.
And just think how muchdifferent this country could be.
It could truly be inclusive.
(20:56):
It could truly embrace diversity.
It could truly be a spacewhere you could be safe.
I don't feel safe in this country.
I feel like I'm a target in lots of ways.
And I'm tired of that.
So this challenge of feeling unsafe,this challenge of wading through igneous,
this challenge of trying to spoon feedothers so that you can just begin to
(21:19):
even feed the seeds that I'm givingyou, is labor intensive, it's a huge
emotional load that I have to carry, andI can't see it diminishing anytime soon.
Erin (she/her) (21:30):
Jade, I'm gonna pause this for a second and I think we need
to make Kim's episode into two parts.
There is so much richness ineverything that she's saying.
I think this constitutes two episodes.
Jade (they/them) (21:43):
You're so right on that I mean, the amount that we've just
gone over in this last little bit I'mreally excited for us to have a part two.
Erin (she/her) (21:53):
Let's do it.
We're inviting you to join usfor part two, and until then,
stay curious, share this episode,and keep the conversation going.
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