June 20, 2024 • 34 mins
In Part 2 of this conversation, Anishinaabe Grandmother Kim Wheatley expands on her mixed feelings about the concepts of decolonization and DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion). She delves into the lasting impacts of colonialism, sharing her experiences with systemic and anti-Indigenous racism, and the added burden of educating Canadians to unlearn their biases. Grandmother Kim highlights how these colonial values appear in workplaces, leaving racialized employees feeling dehumanized, undervalued, and unsafe. She also points out the progress and positive changes that some employers have implemented. Don't miss this powerful and moving episode filled with insight, inspiration and tangible calls to action for all Treaty People (yes, that includes you).
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Episode Transcript
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Kim (00:00):
I
feel mixed feelings about "DEI" I don't like when anything becomes an
acronym I always think we're going downthat slippery slope of dehumanizing
and disconnecting from why thiseven came up in the first place.
Jade Pichette (they/them): I'm Jade Pichette, they / them. (00:16):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:18):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns
she and her.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Welcome to Uncovering Belonging, (00:22):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:24):
a podcast that explores the professional
and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:30):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Welcome back to Uncovering Belonging.
I'm Jade Pichette.
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:37):
And I'm Erin Davis.
You might've noticed that there's been agap since we last brought you an episode.
In fact, it's been nearly a year sincewe recorded part one of our conversation
with grandmother Kim Wheatley.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:48):
Yeah, a lot has happened over the past year and we wanted
to take a moment to acknowledge that.
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:54):
Absolutely, you know, life gets in the way
and the insights and wisdom sharedby grandmother Kim are timeless.
And we believe that her messageis just as relevant today as
when we first recorded them.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:07):
So thanks for sticking with us.
We're excited to finally bring you parttwo of this important conversation.
Erin Davis (she/her) (01:13):
And as always, we hope you find this discussion as
enriching and enlightening as we did.
Let's get started.
Kim (01:23):
You know, as a person of colour, I am immediately judged.
and even in the educational system or themedical system or the policing system, I
know that I'm racialized all the time.
There's this assumption, justlooking at me without even hearing me
speak, that I am somehow less than.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:41):
Hmmm
Kim (01:41):
And I don't believe in that.
The brilliance of this
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:44):
country,
Kim (01:45):
the relationship we've had for thousands of years, puts
us in a place of excellence.
We have so much to offer.
And just think how muchdifferent this country could be.
It could truly be inclusive.
It could truly embrace diversity.
It could truly be a spacewhere you could be safe.
I don't feel safe in this country.
I feel like I'm a target in lots of ways.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (02:08):
Yeah.
Kim (02:08):
And I'm tired of that.
So this challenge of feeling unsafe, thischallenge of wading through ignorance,
this challenge of trying to spoon feedothers so that you can just begin to
even feed the seeds that I'm givingyou, is labor intensive, it's a huge
emotional load that I have to carry, andI can't see it diminishing anytime soon,
(02:31):
right?
All businesses are built on thesecolonial structures and values.
and their retention of employeesis, all over the place.
People are just leaving because theydon't see themselves, they don't
feel safe, they're experiencingthe same things I'm experiencing.
So in the diversity, equity andinclusion, somebody like me is a bit of
a benefit because those people who areworking in that space can actually come
(02:53):
out and say, well, I feel racialized.
I feel like you guys are not includingme in a meaningful way, so I'm gonna
take a lot of sick days and thenI'm gonna eventually just leave.
But I'm a guest speaker,you're paying me to come in.
I'll, say those things.
And then I get to leave, right?
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:08):
Yeah.
Kim (03:09):
But I get to speak a truth, maybe on behalf of not just Indigenous
people, but people who are goingthrough struggles based on common human
inequities and challenges and ignorance.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:20):
So some of the many many things that I'm getting out
of this discussion are, the issues thatwe see in terms of, individual settlers
not seeing themselves as being part ofthe process or having a responsibility
to the process or even understanding theconcept, which has less application in
(03:40):
BC, but for most of the country that we'reall treaty people, and what that actually
means and the actual impact of that.
Kim (03:48):
Hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:48):
I'm also hearing about kind of some of the on-going
legacy of colonialism that I think peopledon't realize is still the case today.
And, as a result, people are justhomogenized into what an Indigenous
person is, without recognizingthe humongous amounts of diversity
and nations from coast to coast.
(04:10):
to coast.
And-
Kim (04:11):
True.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:11):
Um, I'm hearing, , these many layers of ongoing
colonization, the fact that peoplearen't stepping up, and they aren't
listening, they aren't really listening.
Kim (04:23):
Yeah.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:23):
Often when we have these spaces, there's a
tokenistic listening that happens where," Okay, I'll listen to your story, but
then I won't take it out the door."
it, It'll that moment of, " thatan interesting discussion," or,
"That was very inspiring withoutsaying, "Okay, now what am I
required to do with this information?
(04:44):
And how am I going to take it forward?
Kim (04:46):
Yeah.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:46):
So, what are some things that you found have
actually had that like positive impactwhere you see them taking it beyond just
that was an interesting or inspiringdiscussion to one where this is
something where we are making change.
Kim (05:04):
Such a great question, Jade.
You know, I just wanna step back in someof the comments you made for a moment.
You know, people talk about treatiesand there's still this perception
that that's a Native thing, but it's aCanadian thing because are recognized
in the Canadian Constitution as FirstNations, Métis, Inuit people which means
that Canadians have an agreement or arelationship and a responsibility to us.
(05:26):
So it's not one-sided.
This is a two-sided relationship.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (05:30):
Yeah.
Kim (05:30):
And so that means you have to do your work, right?
And when we go along thispath of reconciliation,
this is not Indigenous work.
This is Canadian's work.
We did nothing.
We didn't cause harm.
We received harm.
even the word reconciliationis a bit deceiving because
really it should be restitution.
I've heard many elders say this.
Where Canadians need to make it right.
(05:50):
They need to take responsibility, getover their elders emotional fragility
and just say, okay, what can we do?
And then actually do something.
So that leads us to answeringthe question you have.
The other thing I wanted to say is we'vehad 150 years of cultural genocide.
And so many of our people withinour communities, they're not
on their path of healing yet.
They're not well, they'renot whole and complete.
(06:11):
And so when they're being asked tostep forward and, help educate people,
sometimes it's not always the bestexperience . Sometimes they're not coming
from a place of being fully informed basedon their own healing work themselves.
And so, the harms get magnifiedand the, divide gets greater.
And then people do leave like, "Well,that was a sad story, but I'm leaving."
(06:33):
And, you know, "I hopeyou find your healing."
And they don't actually move forward.
Where I've seen some successesin moving forward is when people
come to our events, when theyactually see us and humanize us.
They humanize the story, they humanizethe faces, they humanize the diversity,
and they get to see us in not just sadsituations or in struggles or in defiance
(06:55):
of what Canada decides are the rules.
They get to see us perhaps at a powow.
Everybody loves a powwow.
Those are like festivals.
And you get to see dancers anddrummers and singings and teachings
and food and art and just therichness and the beauty of who we are.
You know, some listeners may cringe,"Oh, she talked about Powwows.
We're more than Powwows."
Yes, we are.
But Powwows is something that peoplecan easily research, and then it
(07:18):
could be the doorway into all of theother options that would be available.
And it feels good.
It's welcoming.
It's fun.
It's educational.
It has all these kind of points ofcontact based on what you're ready for.
And then you leave betterthan when you came.
Uh, Sometimes people will come to ourevents where we're trying to share a
(07:40):
way of re-engaging with our Mother theEarth that is not tree hugging an animal
worshiping, It's actually doing something.
So a good example of thatis water walking, right?
Water walks or prayers for the water.
It's not walking on water.
It's actually praying for all bodiesof water because water is life.
So how do we do that?
We come together in these big groups.
(08:00):
We sing songs.
and We carry water and we offer prayers.
And the Great Lakes Water Walk in2017 that I helped to lead, we saw a
thousand people come out on one of thehottest days of the year, of all ages,
all races, all religious practices,and come to, you know, the shores
of Lake Ontario and offer prayersin their languages, in their custom.
(08:22):
and it was a beautiful, seamlessweaving together of who we are in a
contemporary sense, bringing historicalknowledge forward and historical
practice with a contemporary applicationthat was universally inclusive.
Those kinds of things are whereI see some real major progress.
Because subsequent to that areinvitations to come and speak about
(08:43):
how long have you been a water walker?
Why is water important?
How is this a living being?
What are the teachings connected to that?
Can you um, see how your teachingsare connected to our teachings?
Uh, you know, these kind of weavingtogether of commonalities, finding
our commonalities is powerful,but not losing ourselves in the
identity sharing is really important.
(09:05):
And so another thing where Isee a success is when people
remember you can't speak for us.
We're still here.
Let us speak for ourselves.
And if you're going to speak about us, toidentify who you're speaking about, use
a name, use a nation, authenticate wherethis is coming from, not just I met this
Indigenous woman and she said this, right?
(09:25):
I met grandmother Kim Wheatleyand, and she shared this at this
event, " Name names because thenit validates that you're not just
inserting your own idea and concept."
And so I see success in that.
And in, academic realms, they'renow accepting orality as an
acceptable citation as long asyou name names, location, dates
(09:45):
and all that kind of stuff.
So I see some growth in that area.
I also see a big upsweep in all kinds oforganizations from environmental to social
to economic to federal, provincial, outreach to culturally sensitize their
organizations or at least become aware.
Like just come and speak, you know,do a lunch and learn or do an actual
(10:06):
multi-faceted teaching and integrationso that not just diversity, equity,
and inclusion, but the populace.
at different levels, getsome awareness of this.
So maybe it's the management, andthen it's, the frontline workers,
and then it's the secretaries andthe janitors and all of those.
And I see that in lots ofdifferent organizations, because
I've been invited to do that.
So I see success happening there.
(10:29):
What I think people need todo is recognize that they have
the power to do something,
You can join a virtual event, you can goto a physical building, you can write
the Prime Minister and demand fresh, cleandrinking water for all Indigenous people.
Even if you've never met one of us.
You know, it's free topop a letter in the mail.
You don't have to puta stamp on that letter.
And they have to read every letterand they have to save every letter.
(10:49):
I mean, you can bring it down tobare bones simplicity in terms
of action oriented impacts,and it's not just water, right?
It's the injustice.
It's the colonial way of going alongand dismantling the challenges, the
inequities, the oppressions, thesilencing that we continue to experience
in a country that is our home.
(11:10):
We're not going anywhere.
We're gonna continue to be here.
We're gonna continue to challenge.
We're going to continue to gather.
We're gonna continue to be who we are.
And Canadians need to stop being afraid.
They need to get to know us by comingto our events, by listening us speak,
by reading what we write, by youknow, doing something like this.
(11:31):
I mean, what you are doing right now,giving me an opportunity to speak to
an audience I might never tap into.
This is powerful.
This is change making.
You're walking your talk.
you're doing something based on apassion that is broad and inclusive
and when we do that, not only do wehumanize who we are, but we actually
naturally gravitate towards inclusivity,
(11:52):
and we naturally embrace diversity.
And-
Jade Pichette (they/them) (11:55):
Agreed.
Kim (11:56):
-feel mixed feelings about "DEI".
I don't like when anythingbecomes an acronym.
I always think we're going downthat slippery slope of dehumanizing
and disconnecting from why thiseven came up in the first place.
So these catchphrases makepeople comfortable and businesses
are quick to absorb them.
But they're not really good at deliveringat the other end of, you know, the
(12:19):
meat and potatoes that we need.
We don't need snacks and appetizers.
We need the meat and potatoes.
does this mean?
We need to see it, feel it, and, be ableto share it, with everybody and hold
people accountable for that as well.
So a lot of passion about that,because it's such a quagmire,
but such a good question.
And I wanna see change.
This is why I do what I do.
(12:41):
This is why I speak.
This is why I push peopleto listen and to invite me.
You know, people don'talways open the door.
I knock on the door and say, "Hey,have you had an Indigenous speaker?
Here I am.
I can talk about this."
And I never let them pigeonhole me.
You know, never.
I'm not only gonna talk aboutwater as a water walker.
I'm not only gonna talk about our history,you know, as a traditional grandmother
(13:04):
who gives cultural sensitization.
I'm gonna talk about everything.
I can talk about anything within ourrealms, because where I see Canadians at
at this time is they're at Indigenous 101.
They're still at kindergarten level.
They're not ready for the deep dive yet.
There are people who are doing thedeep dive, and when they try and
talk publicly, we can't digest it,because we don't have the foundation.
(13:25):
So I'm gonna continue helping toroot and nurture the foundation
so we can do the deep dives.
And through the deep dives, we maysee the changes that we actually
need to experience, not just forIndigenous people, but for all
people in this country, becausewe all win when that happens.
I truly believe in that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (13:43):
So I'm hearing, so much about humanization, and making
sure that we avoid those processes,and acronyms that dehumanize us and
disconnect us from that human connection.
And I think as we're doing this work,it's, really about that connection.
You know, coming to, apowwow or a, water walk.
(14:05):
Listening.
Taking that away, doing something thathas been suggested by, the knowledge
keeper, that is sharing knowledge inthat moment, then bringing that person
into your work and saying, thisperson's going to be paid, we're going
to have, some intentions set around howwe are going to engage afterwards, and
(14:26):
really kind of creating a foundationto build upon, for future growth.
Kim (14:31):
I love what you said, I think, emphasis on paying
It's brilliant that you said that.
The expectation is we're being providedan opportunity that should be enough.
But the level of expertiseyou can't get anyplace else.
So of course you have to pay and payus like you would any consultant.
You know, it's like a donation ora little honorarium here and there.
(14:53):
This is unique access to wisdomand knowledge that comes from
our people, through our people.
So be prepared to embraceus, in the financial realms.
You gotta have a budget line for us.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (15:05):
Yeah the budget line is something that,
shouldn't be an afterthought, butshould be a pre-thought and for us
we always see it as, not just paymentfor the time, but from our perspective
at Pride Work Canada, it's also arecognition of the amount of work
that, people have done to be able to becoming into that space, into that door.
(15:27):
and I could go on about theimportance of payment, but I
wanna throw it over to Erin.
Erin Davis (she/her) (15:33):
Yeah,
Thanks, Jade and, I'm wondering, from your perspective, are we
missing anything that can help usto really, really impact change?
Kim (15:43):
Hmm...
so I'm thinking deeply about your questionbecause I have a variety of responses.
My first response is always emotional,because it affects our sense of belonging.
It affects every component of who we are.
And I look at the Truth and ReconciliationReport presented to the public in 2015,
(16:07):
and the uptake, hopefully, we thoughtwas clear, with 94 calls to action.
Pick one and champion it is what I alwayssay to any organization or business
or anybody who reaches out to me who'sasking how can we walk that path.
Well which one are you championing?
Oh we haven't read it.
Oh, ' so start there and then pick one.
and then you look at kind of theexample from the top down if you're
(16:29):
looking at the hierarchy of Canada.
When it comes to the feds, they'veonly managed to work their way
through three of those since 2015.
So it's certainly not a fast process.
And when you listen to the wordsof somebody like Justice Murray
Sinclair who said, "It took us150 years to get where we're at.
It'll probably take 150 yearsto get where we need to go."
And the avenue isthrough education, right?
(16:52):
This is how all of this greatharm that's being uncovered
is finally coming to light.
And so maybe that's the placewhere we need to center our focus.
It's hard to give just one response.
But, you know, emotionallytriggering is, I don't think
we should be doing this fast.
I think we should be doing it well.
.And post COVID, we understood that relationality is very important.
(17:17):
Having, you know, two years of not beingable to freely access each other was
horrible for many people across the world.
But for Indigenous people, it's justlike, well, this is what our life has
been like, you know, welcome to a res.
Not having access tothings, not having freedoms.
This is our life.
This is our everyday lived life.
So, personally speaking, I didn'tthink it was that big a deal, you
(17:41):
know, but then I'm not running abusiness and the whole commodification
of everything that's considered aresource in this country is a crime.
It's a crime against,our earth, the mother.
It's a crime against the space in place weall need to live, thrive and survive in.
And it is
a massive slippery down slide to theultimate degreening of the world.
(18:03):
So this is why I keep talkingabout humanizing, right?
We have to remember who we are inright relation to all that supports us.
That will keep us on theright road of connection.
That will take us to where we need togo in terms of healing and connection
and understanding and continued growth.
And you don't wanna grow with somesort of a cancer inside of you.
(18:23):
You wanna grow in a way that enablesyou to hold a sense of responsibility.
And I talk about the four Rs, right?
Relationship, respect,responsibility, and reciprocity.
And if we could go from those fourfoundational Rs and remember that
these are universal teachings.
So, you know, the morals and the teachingsthat we have as Indigenous people that
(18:46):
direct us and and kind of guide us in howwe're going to interact, they're reflected
in all cultures around the earth.
Being a good human, here, is beinga good human being anywhere on earth.
So I don't know if that's answering yourquestion 'cause I think I got down my
rabbit hole a bit 'cause there's, this issuch a broad discussion and opportunity
(19:06):
for listeners to get propelled intosome sort of action moving forward.
Don't just listen to this.
You know, once this s podcastis over what are you gonna do?
Erin Davis (she/her) (19:16):
How do we,
How do we help our listenersthink a bit deeper about that?
Because I see practitioners likemyself, I will come in and talk about
diversity, equity, and inclusion,and reference the work that needs
to be done around reconciliation.
And I will always bring forward theopportunity for those individuals
(19:37):
to come in and share their story.
But these two bodies of work arequite often seen as two separate
things inside of organizations.
So what are your thoughts on that?
Kim (19:46):
Yeah, that's, that's a, deep dive question as well, because
the systemic changes don'tsupport the actual work needed.
So you hear this word alot of "decolonizing" and I
don't believe in that word.
I know it's being used in academicrealms and it's starting to be
used in social realms a lot.
But how do you decolonize anyorganization when the entire country
(20:08):
is built, on colonial frameworks?
You can't dismantle an entire countryand you also can't get to bridging
because if you bridge, then eachside has to give up something and the
colonial side won't give up anything.
We've seen this historically.
We see it in a contemporary sense.
So where is the bridge?
(20:29):
One side is giving up something to try andfit into a mold that doesn't work, right?
It's like putting that round peg ina square hole and oh, no matter which
way you turn it, it just doesn't fit.
So I love the idea of the Two Row Wampumbelt and, you know, the kind of colonized
and Indigenous, Traveling side by side,not interfering in each other's affair,
(20:51):
but coexisting in a harmonious way that isrespectful, that is, equally beneficial.
That is, accepted as a normalized,part of the way that we do things.
And I think it's more truthful thinkingabout it in that conceptual way because
we are sovereign citizens in this country.
(21:12):
We have our own rights, we have special,you know, special rights because
we are sovereign in this country.
No other people from any place onearth can come here and claim that.
So we do need to travel along andwe need to really focus, inwardly
on our own needs, but be supportedexternally for that because of the,
(21:34):
you know, the historic crimes committedagainst entire nations of people.
So I hear what you're saying aboutthe perception that yes, you could
bring an authentic voice speakerand then you could, you know,
recommend works and they're seen asseparate little pegs in that board.
How do you, uh, deconstruct orreconstruct that meaningfully?
(21:56):
I think maybe stepping aside outsideof judgment realms and really stepping
into, um, heart-centered choices andallowing people to go from what we
call the longest journey, your head toyour heart, and just knowing that it's
the right thing to do and doing whatis right and how do you gauge that?
How do you measure that?
How does somebody feel?
(22:18):
What are people saying?
What's their reflections?
are they asking for more?
and through that way you're not, you'recircumventing the structure in some ways
in how something is delivered, but you'reactually, um, empowering the structure.
By providing these alternative waysof, you know, engagement or learning
(22:40):
or seeing whatever it may be.
And I think that's what I do.
I think when I come in, I'mirreverent about the structure.
I don't care about the structure.
I'm coming with my heart open.
I'm inviting you to open your heart.
I'm gonna take from my heartand place in your heart.
The truth is I know it.
And encourage you just touplift yourself meaningfully.
(23:02):
And so that would be inyour personal circles.
That would be in your work circles oryour professional realms, your networks,
your social circles, however it may be.
Now how powerful is that seed?
Well, you choose because you have a giftthat is unique to you, which is free will.
And so every day you wake up withyou and that's your whole life walk.
(23:23):
You're gonna be withyou for your whole life.
So what are you gonna do with that?
Are you gonna continue to say,I'm powerless, I don't have a
voice, I don't make a difference.
We were all grains ofsand on a beach of change.
Every grain is powerful.
Collectively they become even more so,and maybe you don't know who else is
doing what you're doing, but if you geta calling, if you feel a pull, if you
feel passionate about something, chancesare that's the right thread to follow.
(23:47):
And that's where you'regoing to make a difference.
This whole conversation about, youknow, decolonizing seems so big
that most people, they can't take-it's not, it's not a bite, you
know, it's this gargantuan, I can'teven get my mouth around it thing.
And if you break it down into littledigestible bits and you do it on a
(24:07):
consistent basis, that's where you see thechanges permanently rooting themselves.
And, and the beautiful thingabout roots is they interconnect
where we don't see it.
You have to dig up the earthto see the connections.
It's the same with our connectionswhen we make them with each other.
Yes, it's nice to find the wordclothing to define it, but the idea
(24:29):
is that you feel it, and that'sa great barometer of measure.
Erin Davis (she/her) (24:33):
I love that so much, and what a beautiful way for us to
close out our formal questions to say,no longer do we need to think in this
black and white world of right and wrong.
We have to do this, don't do that.
But starting from a place of how wefeel at the center of our hearts.
And I think that that is wisdomthat our audience can truly walk
(24:55):
away with, not only for themselves,but to have those conversations.
Those that are in their communities.
So I'll turn it over to Jade now becausewe have our rapid fire questions for you.
Kim (25:08):
I love that you close it up with this because there's been such
joy in this conversation and youknow, I'm gonna listen to it and
say, oh, why didn't I say this?
I mean, there's just endless.
This is an endless dialogue, right?
Where we're, we're, circling up,hopefully, and not circling down
where we're weaving together.
Not only who we are, but we'rebringing more into the fold.
And so I, I'm grateful for theconversation and the opportunity to speak.
(25:31):
I always speak from my heart.
I don't write things down andthen read it and make sure
that, that's what I'm saying.
I let spirit guide me in whatneeds to be transmitted at
this time so it feels truthful.
It is delivered in that way.
And I, I can reflect and grow.
You know what, what wasmy heart on this day?
Oh, I listened to myself.
Well, yeah, I should have said this,but this is what I was feeling.
(25:53):
and Again, you go back tothe analogy of a tree, right?
And the many leaves that areon there, and there's always
some opening every day, right?
And then there's somedying off and falling away.
So there's room for new growth.
I see myself as that foreveruntil my last breath.
And I'm gonna continue to hang on to thatanalogy as not just my own, but encourage
(26:13):
others to see themselves as trees thatinterconnect interconnect our roots
and bloom at the top with who knows what.
But it, you know, in the, inthe greater realm of it all, we
all get breathe because of that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:28):
I don't know how to follow that up
Kim (26:30):
Well, you got some rapid fire questions, so let's
hear them.
Yes,
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:35):
get into let's get into the formal
Kim (26:37):
Let's do it.
Erin Davis (she/her) (26:38):
Let's do it.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:40):
If you could recommend one book, what would it be?
Kim (26:43):
Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimer.
If you haven't read it, read it.
If you haven't bought it, buy it.
If you have read it, share it.
Love that book.
Erin Davis (she/her): It is a brilliant book. (26:52):
undefined
next question.
What brings you
joy no matter what?
Kim (26:58):
My grandchildren, it tells me that we're not a dying race.
It reminds me that Ihave purpose and power.
I need to leave a legacy.
'cause I believe in the concept that weborrow the earth from our descendants.
So every day that I get, to helpthem feel shiny and, apart of, and
not apart from is a day of joy.
Somebody did it for me.
(27:19):
And I think it's animportant gift to pass on.
Our connections matter andmy grandchildren are part
of my connection, you know.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:30):
I need those grand baby photos,
uh, and the cute ones to come.
Um,
song so
Kim (27:38):
They're
so cute.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:39):
So for today your theme song for today?
Kim (27:42):
Brick House by the Commodore.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:45):
Yes.
Kim (27:46):
Now this is going back, you know, to the late seventies, early eighties.
But every time I think about that song, Ithink about the building that I'm doing.
And yes, you know, it's kind of acolonial construct of Brick House.
But I also think about the strengthin that, the sense of belonging in
that, the inclusion in that, thevisioning that's embraced in that.
(28:07):
And I like that song, you know, and, andfor me, uh, growing up, uh, in that time
period when that song was really popular,it was based a lot on my physicality.
'cause you know, I had a momentwhere I felt a little hot and.
Tried to share that.
And as I age, I still feel hot andI still feel like I have some value
that's beyond that physicality.
(28:29):
'cause what do you populate a house with?
Right.
So the, just the idea, theanalogy of a house and something
strong, you know, that's my song.
Erin Davis (she/her) (28:38):
I love that.
Next question, who issomeone that inspires you,
to create belonging butdoesn't receive enough credit?
Kim (28:46):
Elders, so many elders in my life who, you know, hold the traditions,
the practices, the protocols, whospend time on the land, whether anybody
recognizes them or not, who step forwardeven when they're not well, or when
they're tired, or whatever it may be.
And give, give, give.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (29:07):
And our final question is, what is one call to
action you'd like from our listeners?
Kim (29:14):
So I thought about this and I'm thinking about it right now, and my first
response is, talk less and listen more.
But then if you're not talkingenough, then those in your
circle aren't gonna learn.
So it's like a double-edgedsword, you know?
And I, I just believe that we can'tbe everywhere, we encourage you as,
(29:38):
Perhaps self-defined allies or wantingto be allies, to be brave to enter
those spaces and at least share whatyou've come to know and correct it.
If you, you know, recognize thatperhaps you said it wrongly,
you're gonna make mistakes.
We're always gonna be the experts.
You're always gonna to be learning,and we're always learning as well.
(29:59):
But be kind to yourself.
the world is, it can be areally large unkind space.
and don't subscribe to that.
Know that you're a superhero andyou gotta go out and share your
superpowers, and they're unique to you.
And, and I believe in you.
We believe in you.
And you should believe in you.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:18):
I don't think we can close on a better note.
Kim (30:21):
Woohoo!
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:22):
Thank you so much, Kim, such a pleasure to see you
every time and, I've been grateful forthese moments that we have together.
So thank you so, so much.
Kim (30:33):
So grateful for this experience.
I'm gonna close up with three things wesay we can wish without consequence, peace
of mind, good, long life, and good health.
Be well everybody.
Thank you.
Miigwetch.
Erin Davis (she/her) (30:48):
You too, Kim.
Thank you so much.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:54):
Erin Every time that grandmother Kim Wheatley shares
her perspective, it really deepens myunderstanding of the work that we do.
Erin Davis (she/her) (31:02):
Absolutely, Jade.
I am really reminded of how our workis connected to our heart But the
one thing that really stood out tome was her critique of the term DEI,
which you and I hear every singleday, probably numerous times, but what
Kim talked about was how acronyms canreally dehumanize and disconnect us
from the true purpose behind this work.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (31:23):
For sure.
, Kim's, point about diversity, equityand inclusion is maybe different than
the critique that we are hearing moreon a global context, that is kind of
backlash against DEI but I thinkKim's critique brings in this issue
that diversity, equity and inclusionisn't based in human relationships
(31:45):
sometimes and can be a top down approach.
Erin Davis (she/her) (31:50):
Exactly, it's a call to action to all of us to go beyond those
acronyms really, at the end of the day,how do we focus on that human aspect of
this work to make those impactful changes?
Jade Pichette (they/them) (32:02):
Yeah, you know, given everything happening in
the world right now I think it's moreimportant than ever that we approach these
issues with empathy and understanding.
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:11):
Mm hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (32:11):
And those four R's that Kim brought forward of
relationship, respect, responsibilityand reciprocity, are foundational for
creating meaningful and lasting change.
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:23):
It's so true.
Especially amongst the turmoil,it's crucial to remember
the essence of DEI work.
So maybe we can leave ourlisteners with a theme to ponder.
how can we each contribute to creatinga more inclusive world by genuinely
connecting with and understanding eachother rather than just ticking boxes?.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Definitely, Erin. (32:43):
undefined
Let's all strive to bring more heartand authenticity in our actions, in our
words and so I want to thank everybodywho's been with us on this journey.
It's been-
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:56):
Hm-hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Quite a powerful one. (32:56):
undefined
And I want to thank every single personwho's come up to us, who's mentioned
that they listened to the podcast,
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:05):
hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (33:06):
as all the guests that we've had, what a wonderful
journey of uncovering belonging.
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors,
Jade Pichette (they/them): Through dialogue, education and (33:22):
undefined
thought leadership private work.
Canada empowers employers, buildworkplaces that celebrate all employees,
regardless of gender expression,gender identity and sexual orientation.
We've been proud to sponsor and supportthis podcast since its inception,
but now we need your support.
So please reach out to us, , through thePride at Work Canada website or through
(33:43):
LinkedIn to either Erin or myself.
We're thankful for the supportand your interest and hope that we
can keep this conversation going.
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:53):
Many thanks to our production team,
editor and producer, Shawn Amed.
Communications, Luis Augusto Nobre.
Marketing, Paulo Lima andProduction Support, Connor Pion.
And of course, most of all, we'dlike to thank you for joining us
for this important discussion.
Connect with us on LinkedIn andlet us know what part of today's
(34:15):
episode resonated most with you.
For more information about today'sguest's links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes, which areavailable on Private Work Canada's website
Stay curious, stay engaged and let'skeep building those connections.
Until next time.
I
feel mixed feelings about "DEI" I don't like when anything becomes an
acronym I always think we're going downthat slippery slope of dehumanizing
and disconnecting from why thiseven came up in the first place.
Jade Pichette (they/them): I'm Jade Pichette, they / them. (00:16):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:18):
And I'm Erin Davis and I use the pronouns
she and her.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Welcome to Uncovering Belonging, (00:22):
undefined
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:24):
a podcast that explores the professional
and personal stories of
unique voices of what it means to belong
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:30):
and the journey to finding our authentic self.
Welcome back to Uncovering Belonging.
I'm Jade Pichette.
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:37):
And I'm Erin Davis.
You might've noticed that there's been agap since we last brought you an episode.
In fact, it's been nearly a year sincewe recorded part one of our conversation
with grandmother Kim Wheatley.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (00:48):
Yeah, a lot has happened over the past year and we wanted
to take a moment to acknowledge that.
Erin Davis (she/her) (00:54):
Absolutely, you know, life gets in the way
and the insights and wisdom sharedby grandmother Kim are timeless.
And we believe that her messageis just as relevant today as
when we first recorded them.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:07):
So thanks for sticking with us.
We're excited to finally bring you parttwo of this important conversation.
Erin Davis (she/her) (01:13):
And as always, we hope you find this discussion as
enriching and enlightening as we did.
Let's get started.
Kim (01:23):
You know, as a person of colour, I am immediately judged.
and even in the educational system or themedical system or the policing system, I
know that I'm racialized all the time.
There's this assumption, justlooking at me without even hearing me
speak, that I am somehow less than.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:41):
Hmmm
Kim (01:41):
And I don't believe in that.
The brilliance of this
Jade Pichette (they/them) (01:44):
country,
Kim (01:45):
the relationship we've had for thousands of years, puts
us in a place of excellence.
We have so much to offer.
And just think how muchdifferent this country could be.
It could truly be inclusive.
It could truly embrace diversity.
It could truly be a spacewhere you could be safe.
I don't feel safe in this country.
I feel like I'm a target in lots of ways.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (02:08):
Yeah.
Kim (02:08):
And I'm tired of that.
So this challenge of feeling unsafe, thischallenge of wading through ignorance,
this challenge of trying to spoon feedothers so that you can just begin to
even feed the seeds that I'm givingyou, is labor intensive, it's a huge
emotional load that I have to carry, andI can't see it diminishing anytime soon,
(02:31):
right?
All businesses are built on thesecolonial structures and values.
and their retention of employeesis, all over the place.
People are just leaving because theydon't see themselves, they don't
feel safe, they're experiencingthe same things I'm experiencing.
So in the diversity, equity andinclusion, somebody like me is a bit of
a benefit because those people who areworking in that space can actually come
(02:53):
out and say, well, I feel racialized.
I feel like you guys are not includingme in a meaningful way, so I'm gonna
take a lot of sick days and thenI'm gonna eventually just leave.
But I'm a guest speaker,you're paying me to come in.
I'll, say those things.
And then I get to leave, right?
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:08):
Yeah.
Kim (03:09):
But I get to speak a truth, maybe on behalf of not just Indigenous
people, but people who are goingthrough struggles based on common human
inequities and challenges and ignorance.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:20):
So some of the many many things that I'm getting out
of this discussion are, the issues thatwe see in terms of, individual settlers
not seeing themselves as being part ofthe process or having a responsibility
to the process or even understanding theconcept, which has less application in
(03:40):
BC, but for most of the country that we'reall treaty people, and what that actually
means and the actual impact of that.
Kim (03:48):
Hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (03:48):
I'm also hearing about kind of some of the on-going
legacy of colonialism that I think peopledon't realize is still the case today.
And, as a result, people are justhomogenized into what an Indigenous
person is, without recognizingthe humongous amounts of diversity
and nations from coast to coast.
(04:10):
to coast.
And-
Kim (04:11):
True.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:11):
Um, I'm hearing, , these many layers of ongoing
colonization, the fact that peoplearen't stepping up, and they aren't
listening, they aren't really listening.
Kim (04:23):
Yeah.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:23):
Often when we have these spaces, there's a
tokenistic listening that happens where," Okay, I'll listen to your story, but
then I won't take it out the door."
it, It'll that moment of, " thatan interesting discussion," or,
"That was very inspiring withoutsaying, "Okay, now what am I
required to do with this information?
(04:44):
And how am I going to take it forward?
Kim (04:46):
Yeah.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (04:46):
So, what are some things that you found have
actually had that like positive impactwhere you see them taking it beyond just
that was an interesting or inspiringdiscussion to one where this is
something where we are making change.
Kim (05:04):
Such a great question, Jade.
You know, I just wanna step back in someof the comments you made for a moment.
You know, people talk about treatiesand there's still this perception
that that's a Native thing, but it's aCanadian thing because are recognized
in the Canadian Constitution as FirstNations, Métis, Inuit people which means
that Canadians have an agreement or arelationship and a responsibility to us.
(05:26):
So it's not one-sided.
This is a two-sided relationship.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (05:30):
Yeah.
Kim (05:30):
And so that means you have to do your work, right?
And when we go along thispath of reconciliation,
this is not Indigenous work.
This is Canadian's work.
We did nothing.
We didn't cause harm.
We received harm.
even the word reconciliationis a bit deceiving because
really it should be restitution.
I've heard many elders say this.
Where Canadians need to make it right.
(05:50):
They need to take responsibility, getover their elders emotional fragility
and just say, okay, what can we do?
And then actually do something.
So that leads us to answeringthe question you have.
The other thing I wanted to say is we'vehad 150 years of cultural genocide.
And so many of our people withinour communities, they're not
on their path of healing yet.
They're not well, they'renot whole and complete.
(06:11):
And so when they're being asked tostep forward and, help educate people,
sometimes it's not always the bestexperience . Sometimes they're not coming
from a place of being fully informed basedon their own healing work themselves.
And so, the harms get magnifiedand the, divide gets greater.
And then people do leave like, "Well,that was a sad story, but I'm leaving."
(06:33):
And, you know, "I hopeyou find your healing."
And they don't actually move forward.
Where I've seen some successesin moving forward is when people
come to our events, when theyactually see us and humanize us.
They humanize the story, they humanizethe faces, they humanize the diversity,
and they get to see us in not just sadsituations or in struggles or in defiance
(06:55):
of what Canada decides are the rules.
They get to see us perhaps at a powow.
Everybody loves a powwow.
Those are like festivals.
And you get to see dancers anddrummers and singings and teachings
and food and art and just therichness and the beauty of who we are.
You know, some listeners may cringe,"Oh, she talked about Powwows.
We're more than Powwows."
Yes, we are.
But Powwows is something that peoplecan easily research, and then it
(07:18):
could be the doorway into all of theother options that would be available.
And it feels good.
It's welcoming.
It's fun.
It's educational.
It has all these kind of points ofcontact based on what you're ready for.
And then you leave betterthan when you came.
Uh, Sometimes people will come to ourevents where we're trying to share a
(07:40):
way of re-engaging with our Mother theEarth that is not tree hugging an animal
worshiping, It's actually doing something.
So a good example of thatis water walking, right?
Water walks or prayers for the water.
It's not walking on water.
It's actually praying for all bodiesof water because water is life.
So how do we do that?
We come together in these big groups.
(08:00):
We sing songs.
and We carry water and we offer prayers.
And the Great Lakes Water Walk in2017 that I helped to lead, we saw a
thousand people come out on one of thehottest days of the year, of all ages,
all races, all religious practices,and come to, you know, the shores
of Lake Ontario and offer prayersin their languages, in their custom.
(08:22):
and it was a beautiful, seamlessweaving together of who we are in a
contemporary sense, bringing historicalknowledge forward and historical
practice with a contemporary applicationthat was universally inclusive.
Those kinds of things are whereI see some real major progress.
Because subsequent to that areinvitations to come and speak about
(08:43):
how long have you been a water walker?
Why is water important?
How is this a living being?
What are the teachings connected to that?
Can you um, see how your teachingsare connected to our teachings?
Uh, you know, these kind of weavingtogether of commonalities, finding
our commonalities is powerful,but not losing ourselves in the
identity sharing is really important.
(09:05):
And so another thing where Isee a success is when people
remember you can't speak for us.
We're still here.
Let us speak for ourselves.
And if you're going to speak about us, toidentify who you're speaking about, use
a name, use a nation, authenticate wherethis is coming from, not just I met this
Indigenous woman and she said this, right?
(09:25):
I met grandmother Kim Wheatleyand, and she shared this at this
event, " Name names because thenit validates that you're not just
inserting your own idea and concept."
And so I see success in that.
And in, academic realms, they'renow accepting orality as an
acceptable citation as long asyou name names, location, dates
(09:45):
and all that kind of stuff.
So I see some growth in that area.
I also see a big upsweep in all kinds oforganizations from environmental to social
to economic to federal, provincial, outreach to culturally sensitize their
organizations or at least become aware.
Like just come and speak, you know,do a lunch and learn or do an actual
(10:06):
multi-faceted teaching and integrationso that not just diversity, equity,
and inclusion, but the populace.
at different levels, getsome awareness of this.
So maybe it's the management, andthen it's, the frontline workers,
and then it's the secretaries andthe janitors and all of those.
And I see that in lots ofdifferent organizations, because
I've been invited to do that.
So I see success happening there.
(10:29):
What I think people need todo is recognize that they have
the power to do something,
You can join a virtual event, you can goto a physical building, you can write
the Prime Minister and demand fresh, cleandrinking water for all Indigenous people.
Even if you've never met one of us.
You know, it's free topop a letter in the mail.
You don't have to puta stamp on that letter.
And they have to read every letterand they have to save every letter.
(10:49):
I mean, you can bring it down tobare bones simplicity in terms
of action oriented impacts,and it's not just water, right?
It's the injustice.
It's the colonial way of going alongand dismantling the challenges, the
inequities, the oppressions, thesilencing that we continue to experience
in a country that is our home.
(11:10):
We're not going anywhere.
We're gonna continue to be here.
We're gonna continue to challenge.
We're going to continue to gather.
We're gonna continue to be who we are.
And Canadians need to stop being afraid.
They need to get to know us by comingto our events, by listening us speak,
by reading what we write, by youknow, doing something like this.
(11:31):
I mean, what you are doing right now,giving me an opportunity to speak to
an audience I might never tap into.
This is powerful.
This is change making.
You're walking your talk.
you're doing something based on apassion that is broad and inclusive
and when we do that, not only do wehumanize who we are, but we actually
naturally gravitate towards inclusivity,
(11:52):
and we naturally embrace diversity.
And-
Jade Pichette (they/them) (11:55):
Agreed.
Kim (11:56):
-feel mixed feelings about "DEI".
I don't like when anythingbecomes an acronym.
I always think we're going downthat slippery slope of dehumanizing
and disconnecting from why thiseven came up in the first place.
So these catchphrases makepeople comfortable and businesses
are quick to absorb them.
But they're not really good at deliveringat the other end of, you know, the
(12:19):
meat and potatoes that we need.
We don't need snacks and appetizers.
We need the meat and potatoes.
does this mean?
We need to see it, feel it, and, be ableto share it, with everybody and hold
people accountable for that as well.
So a lot of passion about that,because it's such a quagmire,
but such a good question.
And I wanna see change.
This is why I do what I do.
(12:41):
This is why I speak.
This is why I push peopleto listen and to invite me.
You know, people don'talways open the door.
I knock on the door and say, "Hey,have you had an Indigenous speaker?
Here I am.
I can talk about this."
And I never let them pigeonhole me.
You know, never.
I'm not only gonna talk aboutwater as a water walker.
I'm not only gonna talk about our history,you know, as a traditional grandmother
(13:04):
who gives cultural sensitization.
I'm gonna talk about everything.
I can talk about anything within ourrealms, because where I see Canadians at
at this time is they're at Indigenous 101.
They're still at kindergarten level.
They're not ready for the deep dive yet.
There are people who are doing thedeep dive, and when they try and
talk publicly, we can't digest it,because we don't have the foundation.
(13:25):
So I'm gonna continue helping toroot and nurture the foundation
so we can do the deep dives.
And through the deep dives, we maysee the changes that we actually
need to experience, not just forIndigenous people, but for all
people in this country, becausewe all win when that happens.
I truly believe in that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (13:43):
So I'm hearing, so much about humanization, and making
sure that we avoid those processes,and acronyms that dehumanize us and
disconnect us from that human connection.
And I think as we're doing this work,it's, really about that connection.
You know, coming to, apowwow or a, water walk.
(14:05):
Listening.
Taking that away, doing something thathas been suggested by, the knowledge
keeper, that is sharing knowledge inthat moment, then bringing that person
into your work and saying, thisperson's going to be paid, we're going
to have, some intentions set around howwe are going to engage afterwards, and
(14:26):
really kind of creating a foundationto build upon, for future growth.
Kim (14:31):
I love what you said, I think, emphasis on paying
It's brilliant that you said that.
The expectation is we're being providedan opportunity that should be enough.
But the level of expertiseyou can't get anyplace else.
So of course you have to pay and payus like you would any consultant.
You know, it's like a donation ora little honorarium here and there.
(14:53):
This is unique access to wisdomand knowledge that comes from
our people, through our people.
So be prepared to embraceus, in the financial realms.
You gotta have a budget line for us.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (15:05):
Yeah the budget line is something that,
shouldn't be an afterthought, butshould be a pre-thought and for us
we always see it as, not just paymentfor the time, but from our perspective
at Pride Work Canada, it's also arecognition of the amount of work
that, people have done to be able to becoming into that space, into that door.
(15:27):
and I could go on about theimportance of payment, but I
wanna throw it over to Erin.
Erin Davis (she/her) (15:33):
Yeah,
Thanks, Jade and, I'm wondering, from your perspective, are we
missing anything that can help usto really, really impact change?
Kim (15:43):
Hmm...
so I'm thinking deeply about your questionbecause I have a variety of responses.
My first response is always emotional,because it affects our sense of belonging.
It affects every component of who we are.
And I look at the Truth and ReconciliationReport presented to the public in 2015,
(16:07):
and the uptake, hopefully, we thoughtwas clear, with 94 calls to action.
Pick one and champion it is what I alwayssay to any organization or business
or anybody who reaches out to me who'sasking how can we walk that path.
Well which one are you championing?
Oh we haven't read it.
Oh, ' so start there and then pick one.
and then you look at kind of theexample from the top down if you're
(16:29):
looking at the hierarchy of Canada.
When it comes to the feds, they'veonly managed to work their way
through three of those since 2015.
So it's certainly not a fast process.
And when you listen to the wordsof somebody like Justice Murray
Sinclair who said, "It took us150 years to get where we're at.
It'll probably take 150 yearsto get where we need to go."
And the avenue isthrough education, right?
(16:52):
This is how all of this greatharm that's being uncovered
is finally coming to light.
And so maybe that's the placewhere we need to center our focus.
It's hard to give just one response.
But, you know, emotionallytriggering is, I don't think
we should be doing this fast.
I think we should be doing it well.
.And post COVID, we understood that relationality is very important.
(17:17):
Having, you know, two years of not beingable to freely access each other was
horrible for many people across the world.
But for Indigenous people, it's justlike, well, this is what our life has
been like, you know, welcome to a res.
Not having access tothings, not having freedoms.
This is our life.
This is our everyday lived life.
So, personally speaking, I didn'tthink it was that big a deal, you
(17:41):
know, but then I'm not running abusiness and the whole commodification
of everything that's considered aresource in this country is a crime.
It's a crime against,our earth, the mother.
It's a crime against the space in place weall need to live, thrive and survive in.
And it is
a massive slippery down slide to theultimate degreening of the world.
(18:03):
So this is why I keep talkingabout humanizing, right?
We have to remember who we are inright relation to all that supports us.
That will keep us on theright road of connection.
That will take us to where we need togo in terms of healing and connection
and understanding and continued growth.
And you don't wanna grow with somesort of a cancer inside of you.
(18:23):
You wanna grow in a way that enablesyou to hold a sense of responsibility.
And I talk about the four Rs, right?
Relationship, respect,responsibility, and reciprocity.
And if we could go from those fourfoundational Rs and remember that
these are universal teachings.
So, you know, the morals and the teachingsthat we have as Indigenous people that
(18:46):
direct us and and kind of guide us in howwe're going to interact, they're reflected
in all cultures around the earth.
Being a good human, here, is beinga good human being anywhere on earth.
So I don't know if that's answering yourquestion 'cause I think I got down my
rabbit hole a bit 'cause there's, this issuch a broad discussion and opportunity
(19:06):
for listeners to get propelled intosome sort of action moving forward.
Don't just listen to this.
You know, once this s podcastis over what are you gonna do?
Erin Davis (she/her) (19:16):
How do we,
How do we help our listenersthink a bit deeper about that?
Because I see practitioners likemyself, I will come in and talk about
diversity, equity, and inclusion,and reference the work that needs
to be done around reconciliation.
And I will always bring forward theopportunity for those individuals
(19:37):
to come in and share their story.
But these two bodies of work arequite often seen as two separate
things inside of organizations.
So what are your thoughts on that?
Kim (19:46):
Yeah, that's, that's a, deep dive question as well, because
the systemic changes don'tsupport the actual work needed.
So you hear this word alot of "decolonizing" and I
don't believe in that word.
I know it's being used in academicrealms and it's starting to be
used in social realms a lot.
But how do you decolonize anyorganization when the entire country
(20:08):
is built, on colonial frameworks?
You can't dismantle an entire countryand you also can't get to bridging
because if you bridge, then eachside has to give up something and the
colonial side won't give up anything.
We've seen this historically.
We see it in a contemporary sense.
So where is the bridge?
(20:29):
One side is giving up something to try andfit into a mold that doesn't work, right?
It's like putting that round peg ina square hole and oh, no matter which
way you turn it, it just doesn't fit.
So I love the idea of the Two Row Wampumbelt and, you know, the kind of colonized
and Indigenous, Traveling side by side,not interfering in each other's affair,
(20:51):
but coexisting in a harmonious way that isrespectful, that is, equally beneficial.
That is, accepted as a normalized,part of the way that we do things.
And I think it's more truthful thinkingabout it in that conceptual way because
we are sovereign citizens in this country.
(21:12):
We have our own rights, we have special,you know, special rights because
we are sovereign in this country.
No other people from any place onearth can come here and claim that.
So we do need to travel along andwe need to really focus, inwardly
on our own needs, but be supportedexternally for that because of the,
(21:34):
you know, the historic crimes committedagainst entire nations of people.
So I hear what you're saying aboutthe perception that yes, you could
bring an authentic voice speakerand then you could, you know,
recommend works and they're seen asseparate little pegs in that board.
How do you, uh, deconstruct orreconstruct that meaningfully?
(21:56):
I think maybe stepping aside outsideof judgment realms and really stepping
into, um, heart-centered choices andallowing people to go from what we
call the longest journey, your head toyour heart, and just knowing that it's
the right thing to do and doing whatis right and how do you gauge that?
How do you measure that?
How does somebody feel?
(22:18):
What are people saying?
What's their reflections?
are they asking for more?
and through that way you're not, you'recircumventing the structure in some ways
in how something is delivered, but you'reactually, um, empowering the structure.
By providing these alternative waysof, you know, engagement or learning
(22:40):
or seeing whatever it may be.
And I think that's what I do.
I think when I come in, I'mirreverent about the structure.
I don't care about the structure.
I'm coming with my heart open.
I'm inviting you to open your heart.
I'm gonna take from my heartand place in your heart.
The truth is I know it.
And encourage you just touplift yourself meaningfully.
(23:02):
And so that would be inyour personal circles.
That would be in your work circles oryour professional realms, your networks,
your social circles, however it may be.
Now how powerful is that seed?
Well, you choose because you have a giftthat is unique to you, which is free will.
And so every day you wake up withyou and that's your whole life walk.
(23:23):
You're gonna be withyou for your whole life.
So what are you gonna do with that?
Are you gonna continue to say,I'm powerless, I don't have a
voice, I don't make a difference.
We were all grains ofsand on a beach of change.
Every grain is powerful.
Collectively they become even more so,and maybe you don't know who else is
doing what you're doing, but if you geta calling, if you feel a pull, if you
feel passionate about something, chancesare that's the right thread to follow.
(23:47):
And that's where you'regoing to make a difference.
This whole conversation about, youknow, decolonizing seems so big
that most people, they can't take-it's not, it's not a bite, you
know, it's this gargantuan, I can'teven get my mouth around it thing.
And if you break it down into littledigestible bits and you do it on a
(24:07):
consistent basis, that's where you see thechanges permanently rooting themselves.
And, and the beautiful thingabout roots is they interconnect
where we don't see it.
You have to dig up the earthto see the connections.
It's the same with our connectionswhen we make them with each other.
Yes, it's nice to find the wordclothing to define it, but the idea
(24:29):
is that you feel it, and that'sa great barometer of measure.
Erin Davis (she/her) (24:33):
I love that so much, and what a beautiful way for us to
close out our formal questions to say,no longer do we need to think in this
black and white world of right and wrong.
We have to do this, don't do that.
But starting from a place of how wefeel at the center of our hearts.
And I think that that is wisdomthat our audience can truly walk
(24:55):
away with, not only for themselves,but to have those conversations.
Those that are in their communities.
So I'll turn it over to Jade now becausewe have our rapid fire questions for you.
Kim (25:08):
I love that you close it up with this because there's been such
joy in this conversation and youknow, I'm gonna listen to it and
say, oh, why didn't I say this?
I mean, there's just endless.
This is an endless dialogue, right?
Where we're, we're, circling up,hopefully, and not circling down
where we're weaving together.
Not only who we are, but we'rebringing more into the fold.
And so I, I'm grateful for theconversation and the opportunity to speak.
(25:31):
I always speak from my heart.
I don't write things down andthen read it and make sure
that, that's what I'm saying.
I let spirit guide me in whatneeds to be transmitted at
this time so it feels truthful.
It is delivered in that way.
And I, I can reflect and grow.
You know what, what wasmy heart on this day?
Oh, I listened to myself.
Well, yeah, I should have said this,but this is what I was feeling.
(25:53):
and Again, you go back tothe analogy of a tree, right?
And the many leaves that areon there, and there's always
some opening every day, right?
And then there's somedying off and falling away.
So there's room for new growth.
I see myself as that foreveruntil my last breath.
And I'm gonna continue to hang on to thatanalogy as not just my own, but encourage
(26:13):
others to see themselves as trees thatinterconnect interconnect our roots
and bloom at the top with who knows what.
But it, you know, in the, inthe greater realm of it all, we
all get breathe because of that.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:28):
I don't know how to follow that up
Kim (26:30):
Well, you got some rapid fire questions, so let's
hear them.
Yes,
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:35):
get into let's get into the formal
Kim (26:37):
Let's do it.
Erin Davis (she/her) (26:38):
Let's do it.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (26:40):
If you could recommend one book, what would it be?
Kim (26:43):
Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimer.
If you haven't read it, read it.
If you haven't bought it, buy it.
If you have read it, share it.
Love that book.
Erin Davis (she/her): It is a brilliant book. (26:52):
undefined
next question.
What brings you
joy no matter what?
Kim (26:58):
My grandchildren, it tells me that we're not a dying race.
It reminds me that Ihave purpose and power.
I need to leave a legacy.
'cause I believe in the concept that weborrow the earth from our descendants.
So every day that I get, to helpthem feel shiny and, apart of, and
not apart from is a day of joy.
Somebody did it for me.
(27:19):
And I think it's animportant gift to pass on.
Our connections matter andmy grandchildren are part
of my connection, you know.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:30):
I need those grand baby photos,
uh, and the cute ones to come.
Um,
song so
Kim (27:38):
They're
so cute.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:39):
So for today your theme song for today?
Kim (27:42):
Brick House by the Commodore.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (27:45):
Yes.
Kim (27:46):
Now this is going back, you know, to the late seventies, early eighties.
But every time I think about that song, Ithink about the building that I'm doing.
And yes, you know, it's kind of acolonial construct of Brick House.
But I also think about the strengthin that, the sense of belonging in
that, the inclusion in that, thevisioning that's embraced in that.
(28:07):
And I like that song, you know, and, andfor me, uh, growing up, uh, in that time
period when that song was really popular,it was based a lot on my physicality.
'cause you know, I had a momentwhere I felt a little hot and.
Tried to share that.
And as I age, I still feel hot andI still feel like I have some value
that's beyond that physicality.
(28:29):
'cause what do you populate a house with?
Right.
So the, just the idea, theanalogy of a house and something
strong, you know, that's my song.
Erin Davis (she/her) (28:38):
I love that.
Next question, who issomeone that inspires you,
to create belonging butdoesn't receive enough credit?
Kim (28:46):
Elders, so many elders in my life who, you know, hold the traditions,
the practices, the protocols, whospend time on the land, whether anybody
recognizes them or not, who step forwardeven when they're not well, or when
they're tired, or whatever it may be.
And give, give, give.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (29:07):
And our final question is, what is one call to
action you'd like from our listeners?
Kim (29:14):
So I thought about this and I'm thinking about it right now, and my first
response is, talk less and listen more.
But then if you're not talkingenough, then those in your
circle aren't gonna learn.
So it's like a double-edgedsword, you know?
And I, I just believe that we can'tbe everywhere, we encourage you as,
(29:38):
Perhaps self-defined allies or wantingto be allies, to be brave to enter
those spaces and at least share whatyou've come to know and correct it.
If you, you know, recognize thatperhaps you said it wrongly,
you're gonna make mistakes.
We're always gonna be the experts.
You're always gonna to be learning,and we're always learning as well.
(29:59):
But be kind to yourself.
the world is, it can be areally large unkind space.
and don't subscribe to that.
Know that you're a superhero andyou gotta go out and share your
superpowers, and they're unique to you.
And, and I believe in you.
We believe in you.
And you should believe in you.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:18):
I don't think we can close on a better note.
Kim (30:21):
Woohoo!
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:22):
Thank you so much, Kim, such a pleasure to see you
every time and, I've been grateful forthese moments that we have together.
So thank you so, so much.
Kim (30:33):
So grateful for this experience.
I'm gonna close up with three things wesay we can wish without consequence, peace
of mind, good, long life, and good health.
Be well everybody.
Thank you.
Miigwetch.
Erin Davis (she/her) (30:48):
You too, Kim.
Thank you so much.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (30:54):
Erin Every time that grandmother Kim Wheatley shares
her perspective, it really deepens myunderstanding of the work that we do.
Erin Davis (she/her) (31:02):
Absolutely, Jade.
I am really reminded of how our workis connected to our heart But the
one thing that really stood out tome was her critique of the term DEI,
which you and I hear every singleday, probably numerous times, but what
Kim talked about was how acronyms canreally dehumanize and disconnect us
from the true purpose behind this work.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (31:23):
For sure.
, Kim's, point about diversity, equityand inclusion is maybe different than
the critique that we are hearing moreon a global context, that is kind of
backlash against DEI but I thinkKim's critique brings in this issue
that diversity, equity and inclusionisn't based in human relationships
(31:45):
sometimes and can be a top down approach.
Erin Davis (she/her) (31:50):
Exactly, it's a call to action to all of us to go beyond those
acronyms really, at the end of the day,how do we focus on that human aspect of
this work to make those impactful changes?
Jade Pichette (they/them) (32:02):
Yeah, you know, given everything happening in
the world right now I think it's moreimportant than ever that we approach these
issues with empathy and understanding.
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:11):
Mm hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (32:11):
And those four R's that Kim brought forward of
relationship, respect, responsibilityand reciprocity, are foundational for
creating meaningful and lasting change.
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:23):
It's so true.
Especially amongst the turmoil,it's crucial to remember
the essence of DEI work.
So maybe we can leave ourlisteners with a theme to ponder.
how can we each contribute to creatinga more inclusive world by genuinely
connecting with and understanding eachother rather than just ticking boxes?.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Definitely, Erin. (32:43):
undefined
Let's all strive to bring more heartand authenticity in our actions, in our
words and so I want to thank everybodywho's been with us on this journey.
It's been-
Erin Davis (she/her) (32:56):
Hm-hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them): Quite a powerful one. (32:56):
undefined
And I want to thank every single personwho's come up to us, who's mentioned
that they listened to the podcast,
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:05):
hmm.
Jade Pichette (they/them) (33:06):
as all the guests that we've had, what a wonderful
journey of uncovering belonging.
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors,
Jade Pichette (they/them): Through dialogue, education and (33:22):
undefined
thought leadership private work.
Canada empowers employers, buildworkplaces that celebrate all employees,
regardless of gender expression,gender identity and sexual orientation.
We've been proud to sponsor and supportthis podcast since its inception,
but now we need your support.
So please reach out to us, , through thePride at Work Canada website or through
(33:43):
LinkedIn to either Erin or myself.
We're thankful for the supportand your interest and hope that we
can keep this conversation going.
Erin Davis (she/her) (33:53):
Many thanks to our production team,
editor and producer, Shawn Amed.
Communications, Luis Augusto Nobre.
Marketing, Paulo Lima andProduction Support, Connor Pion.
And of course, most of all, we'dlike to thank you for joining us
for this important discussion.
Connect with us on LinkedIn andlet us know what part of today's
(34:15):
episode resonated most with you.
For more information about today'sguest's links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes, which areavailable on Private Work Canada's website
Stay curious, stay engaged and let'skeep building those connections.
Until next time.
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