October 31, 2022 • 31 mins
Are histories of oppression repeating themselves and if so, what role does DEI have in breaking the cycle? Co-hosts Erin and Jade are joined by PhD, DEI advocate, historian and host of the Just One Q podcast, Dr. Melissa Horne, who shares how learning about Black History and the Civil Rights Movement shaped her journey towards Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I really think you and Erin are on to something here
with titling your podcast "Uncovering Belonging,"
because I'm sure everyone has seenthat diagram about belonging
being at the center of the DEI,(sort of) Venn diagram.
But belonging is such an important partof any workplace initiative.
Having employees feel like they belong,that they matter, that they're seen.
(00:20):
It hits at the business case,it hits at the moral case.
It hits at the culture case.
I'm Jade Pichette,
they/them.
And I'm Erin Davis.
They use the pronouns she and her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories of unique voices
of what it means to belong.
And the journeyto finding our authentic self.
(00:45):
I'm really excited, Erin,to introduce Dr.
Melissa Horne, who I got to connect withthrough having listened to her podcast.
Just one Q. "Welcome to Just One Q.
I'm Dr.
Melissa Horne,a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advocate.
Such a fantastic podcast and gave honestlya lot of inspiration for ours.
(01:06):
Totally.
One of my favorite diversity,equity and inclusion podcasts.
We're so grateful to be on her podcastin June of 2022.
Yeah, so I'm really excitedthat we get to talk with her today.
So to introduce Melissa, Dr.
Melissa Horne,(she/her) is a historian, DEI advocate
(01:26):
and the director of Growth and BusinessDevelopment at Dialectic,
which is an inclusive workplacelearning company based
in Guelph, Ontario at Dialectic.
Melissa helps DEIchampions apply science-backed methods
to activate inclusive practiceswithin organizations.
Melissa holds a Ph.D.
(01:48):
in modern U.S.
and African-American historyfrom Rutgers University and has designed
targeted social justice educationfor organizations both big and small.
She is also the host of,as we mentioned, the Just One Q
podcast, which spotlightsDEI practitioners with cutting-edge ideas
for driving real culturaland behavioral change.
(02:12):
Well, for Melissa is calling infrom is located in The Between the Lakes Purchase ,
Treaty 3 and the Treaty Landsand Territories of the Missisaugas of
the Credit. It's recognized thatthe Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee peoples
have a unique long-standing and ongoingrelationships with the land and each other
(02:32):
and that the land and people are part
of the archeological record of this area.
And so we're very grateful to have Melissajoin us today.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Melissa. Welcome.
Welcome to the podcast.
This is sort of,
I guess, our second time connecting, butreally I am excited to hear your story.
So welcome and let us know,how did you get into this work
(02:55):
and a little bit about you.
How did I get here?
Well, Jade mentioned I'm a historian,so we'll start
kind of we'll do a little bit of a historyand then actually started with history.
I originally received my Ph.D.
in Black History, and my journey towardsthat topic is interesting.
So it happened that I was trying to enrollfor a history course.
(03:17):
I went to Carleton for my undergradand the course I wanted was full and
there was one on the civil rights movementand so I ended up taking that course.
And there is a moment there whereI'm learning about the history of these
young students who are willing to diefor rights and privileges
that I often didn't even think about,didn't have to think about.
(03:38):
Right.
I lived a fairly, I would say,privileged life and thinking about
what would I put myself on the line forand what would I what would I do?
Just became something that I they kind ofneeded to preserve a little bit.
What, you know,what were things that mattered to me?
Hi, everyone,
this is Jade and I'm recording this afterthe fact during the discussion today.
(04:02):
One thing that I find particularlyinteresting is how her journey led
to a Ph.D.
focused on Black historyand the Civil Rights Movement.
It's always importantin how we address these discussions,
where it's important to learn about Blackand other civil rights histories
that so few of us were taughtin-depth, in reality, in school.
(04:25):
We also have to be very awareto not center ourselves
when we are white in these discussions.
So we need to know history.
And knowing history is powerful
and recognizing how civil rightsand other movements for justice
are interconnected and linked,which is a big part
of today's discussion.
(04:47):
And for me,knowing that my cousins who are Black,
they were having different experiencesand I was having
and so that sort of all came togetherthinking about, okay,
there's a lot in the world that I can do.
And and I just became really interestedin sort of the idea of race,
the history of race,
you know, the fact thatthis is a construct that has been created
to create inequalitiesand to oppress people.
And so I got really interested in learningabout how race was taught.
(05:11):
So after the Civil War,the formerly enslaved men
and women of the South,along with missionaries from the North,
founded our Historically Black Collegesand Universities, which we now call
Historically Black Collegesand Universities.
At the time,you know, they weren't called that,
but so I was really interestedin the idea of given that these schools
were being foundedjust after the Civil War,
(05:31):
this is also the heightof scientific racism.
How was race being taught? How, you know,
what was it what was happeningin the schools over the messages?
Because this is a liberatory moment.
People have freed themselves,liberated themselves
and are seeking education,which previously was illegal in the South.
Right.
So I got to sort of studying thisand looking at that.
And as I started to follow the historiesof these schools a bit
(05:51):
more into the early 20th century,I started to see things popping up
that were acts of resistancethat looked a lot
like what we typically associate
with the Civil RightsMovement of the fifties and sixties.
And so I started to follow that threadand I became really,
really interested inhow do people affect change
where it looks likethey may not have the power to do so.
So the Historically Black Colleges,
(06:13):
Universities in the early 20thcentury were run by white men.
They were religious men, ministersfrom different faiths.
And their thinking and the thinkingof the students were not aligned anymore.
Right.
So Black students wanted Black professorsand Black leaders
because these paternalistic presidentsand teachers were not reflecting
what the students wanted.And they wanted more Black history.
They wanted to be taught topicsthat mattered and were relevant to them.
(06:35):
And so you start to see thatthrough resistance, through organizing,
that Black presidents start to be hiredand replace the white presidents.
So as I'm living and livingand working in the U.S.
or studying in the U.S., you know,
I also had the opportunity to start thereduring the Obama administration.
And there was a sort of a confluence ofthings that were happening at that time.
So we're looking at, you know,when we talk about representation matters,
(06:57):
it truly matters.
There is, I think, a sense therethat a lot was possible at the time.
Yeah.
So I'm studying this momentwhere Black presidents
are now coming into power at HistoricallyBlack Colleges, Universities.
We have the first Black presidentof the United States.
And also there's the fight for LGBTQrights
and transgenderrights and marriage equality.
That's all happening at the same time.
(07:17):
And so I realizedthat while I loved history
and couldn't just sort of sitin the ivory tower and just sort of talk
about these ideas among other professors,I wanted to live out social justice.
I wanted to do workthat really felt meaningful to me
and that would make an impactevery day, right?
So once I finished my Ph.D.,I came back to Canada
and happened across dialecticand you know, I was doing the job search
(07:41):
and saw a job posting for a role thatI don't think I was really qualified for.
But as I looked at the peoplewho were working at Dialectic at the time,
when I looked at the mission,when I looked at the projects
that they were workingon, it just spoke to me
and I thought that this was a companythat really aligned with my values,
and that was about five years agoand I haven't left yet.
And we just keep growing and,you know, it's amazing to be able
(08:01):
to work for a place where you can live outyour values every day.
I have so many more questions now.
Let's do it.So thank you for sharing that.
I am just in awe of whatyou would have got to learn that.
And I love the piece of like why I wantedto take this one course, but it was fall.
So I love that you really come at thisfrom a true educational perspective.
(08:22):
Me too.
I want to dove into somethingthat's a little bit outside of our bubble.
You said you applied for a job that youdidn't think that you were qualified for,
as did I practitioners.
As we talk about the space, there's a lotof people who are passionate about it,
but they don't necessarilyhave the schooling, have the background.
Can you tell us a little bit more onhow you brought those two worlds together?
(08:46):
Yeah, I mean, it was really scary,actually, because I had been trained for
15 years to be an academic.
Right.
It is a very particular way of working,of approaching things.
And it means that you are spendingall of the time that you might have been
working in the workforce, studying,and you acquire a ton of skills,
but they're not always readilytranslatable.
(09:09):
It's hard to parlay like organizingyour dissertation committee into,
you know, workplace jargon.
What does that even mean?
You know, you organize this big researchproject is it project management?
What is any of this?
The thing that I think drew me todialectic was one.
There were other folks with PhDswho were doing work.
So I saw that they would understandwhy I didn't want to necessarily
(09:30):
pursue academia and they would seethe value of the skills that I had.
I think the other thing too is that weoften create job descriptions and right
job descriptions
and not saying that this is what happened,
but I didn't see myselfin that particular role.
And I think we unintentionally oftencreate job descriptions
that exclude candidates.
Definitely.
But I actually just reached out to Aaron,who's our president
(09:51):
and founder on LinkedIn, and I said, look,I don't normally do this.
I literally type this.
I said, I don't normally do this,
but I really think that the workyou're doing is interesting.
I think that I have the skillsto, you know, help you work.
Could we meet? I love that.
And he actually invited me in
and luckily I started over on the researchand creative design side.
So I was designing e-learningfor veterinarian and pet food companies.
(10:14):
But it ended up being that my connectionsback to my former partner in the U.S.
that I really was able to mergelike all of my passions.
Tell me more about that.
My former partner had been workingfor the National Center for Lesbian Rights
and also with some of the other nationalLGBTQ plus organizations in the U.S.
And so we were able to work togethercreating e-learning and social
(10:37):
justice campaigns.
And so that sort of from there,I haven't really looked back.
We've just been really focusing
a lot on figuring outhow do we design really good dehydrating
and so that it just sort of again happenedthat I was able to find people
who saw the skills that I hadand that I was able to maintain certain
connections with other folksand then bring that into this company.
That's so powerful.
(10:58):
And there's such an element in therefor any organization.
Thinking about. Hiring.
Agreed.
It's so often that we just take the jobdescription,
this getting down into the weeds,
we take the job description that we hadbefore we take a couple of them,
we mash them togetherand then we put it out to the world
in the same waythat we put it out in the world before.
And then we get the same candidatesapplying.
(11:19):
Exactly.
And so if we really want to be intentionalabout it, we have to think differently.
And so the sort of,you know, leads into this next question
as you share the work that you're doing,why does this work make you feel
a sense of belonging and has thattaken time for you to get there?
Hum, that's a great question.
It was a hard decisionnot to pursue academia again
(11:41):
because so much of the trainingand your identity gets wrapped
in with the dissertationwith the work that you're doing, right?
And it's really hard to sayto your advisor
after they've also feel likethey've invested many years into you
that I'm not going to pursuethis vocation.
I hear that.
It was really hard to sort ofget a sense of like, Well, who am I now?
Like, I have these credentials,but I'm not a practicing academic.
(12:04):
And so for me, it was reallytrying to figure out what am I going to do
that's going to make me feel likeI did about the research
because I love researching,I loved learning, and I wanted something
that made me feel like I was doingsomething that I had a purpose.
And so when I first started out,I mentioned
we were doing e-learning for veterinariansand for pet food companies,
but that work was meaningful
(12:25):
because we were looking at how do you helpveterinarians connect to pet owners?
It doesn't sound that important, butpets are super meaningful to their owners.
Veterinarians love animals and, you know,sometimes there's a disconnect
between the veterinary, their prescribing.
They get stuck in the scienceand the pet owners like,
I don't know how to support my pet.
Like, are you truly in it for my pet?
Are you trying to get money out of meand being able to sort of help
(12:47):
the two people come togetherand have a dialog felt meaningful.
It felt like I was, you know,
again, helping people, which is reallywhat I, you know, I wanted to do.
Tell me more about that.
I think
what really helped me to feelthat I could bring myself
to work was just working for a placethat lives its values totally.
We work with organizations
and employers to help their employeesfeel a sense of belonging.
(13:10):
One of the things that we did waswe were writing guides
for LGBTQ youth, working with the HumanRights Campaign in the US
and knowing that we were designing,training, that we were creating campaigns
that would help kids who may nototherwise have been seen,
who could see themselvesreflected back in the report.
So we were designing stuffthat were for them, stuff
(13:32):
that like wasn't aroundwhen I was growing up.
I hear that.
I grew up in the, you know, the ninetiesand 2000, just knowing
that I was doing work that would help kidswhere we didn't have that growing up.
So, so I really felt like I was ableto do work that had meaning to me
and that had meaning to my communityas well.
The thing that I keep hearing from you,Melissa, is about impact.
(13:53):
And this is something that I also hearon your podcasts,
just on cue as well, is you're oftenlooking at, you know,
what is the impact,how is this having meaningful change?
And I think especially rightnow, EDI has become
such a buzz word within within communities
and within employers, but not necessarilyalways with the impact.
(14:17):
And I know that's somethingthat all three of us share.
And it's one of the reasonswhy I think we all could work together
in certain ways, iswe believe in the importance of impact.
Exactly.
Whether it's, you know, workingwith veterinarians, which is important.
I think the importance of animalsand creating a sense of belonging
is it's important
I get to work in an officewhere people can bring in their dogs,
(14:39):
which for me
cultivates a sense of belonging,even though my dog would never be able
to come home.
We tried.
We tried bringing my dog in.
It was it was a disaster.
Yeah.
Mine would just be up in everybody'sbusiness.
He would be way too excited every time.
But whether it's petsor organizational change
or any of these pieces,
(14:59):
they all cultivate that sense of belongingand have that impact.
So what are some of the barriersthat you're seeing in terms
of creating that impact,creating that sense of belonging,
whether that's from your own experience
or from the many different guestsand folks that you get to interact with.
(15:19):
Funding that really creates a barrierto having impact
because unfortunately the folksthat I interface with often
will come and say, we have just
this amount of money to do work,and so what can I get for that.
Totally?
Which makes it really hard
because when I know that they have budgetfor all sorts of things, right?
(15:43):
Yeah.
You know EDI gets very little budgetand other stuff gets,
you know, a ton of budget.
So I think the funding is problematicbecause people will say, well,
I can only do this, sobut what can you do with this?
And I have to say, not a lot.
I mean, we can startwe can start to have the conversation.
But if you think that this little bit
is going to result in changethat you hope to see,
(16:05):
we have to work together a bitmore to figure out and help your leaders
and help the people who hold the fundingto see the value totally.
I think the other thing that is a barrieris that people think that training
is going to fix everything.
Yes, right.
And what we do is we do training for sure.
And training is a really importantpart of the work.
Right.
(16:26):
We'll go back to the sort of the topicof inclusive hiring practices.
You can have a great jobdescription, right?
You can go through and removegendered language.
You can ensure that you've got the paybands, you can do all the things
that check the box to make itan inclusive job.
Description.
But if you're hiring practices,if the questions that you ask,
if the way that you hire people,if the whole interview
(16:47):
process is not inclusive,you're going to lose great candidates.
Exactly.
The other thing that's happeningis that the sort of urgency
that we felt in 2020is diminishing their memories fading.
Oh, yeah.
You know, the murder of George Floydis being a major catalyst
for sort of having these discussionsand sort of
creating the sense of urgency to have DEIconsultants and strategists come in.
(17:10):
That's sort of starting to wane, too.
And so we have to remind people that,no, no, you can't just forget about this.
Right.
Just because it's not top of the newscycle doesn't mean
this isn't important to your employeesas well.
Yeah,I agree with everything that you've said
and I've seen all of thisin my own work as well.
I was giving advice to a companyjust yesterday who was so excited
(17:30):
and talked so much about how great it wasbecause they could
pull budget from places,but they had no consistent budget.
Right.
And and,you know, we see often these short term,
quote unquote solutions,which often are not actually solutions.
They're tokenistic efforts.
It's true, you know, bringingin a training, but having it be one off
(17:52):
and not really having any of thatconsistency.
It's one of the reasonswhy I actually love your project learning
snippets, because it encourages employersto consistently think of these issues,
to consistently consider theseas things to be working on and you know,
I really hear you interms of many people have all this money
(18:13):
when it comes to other projects.
You know,
they can throw thousands of dollarsdown to have a nice catered
networking eventwhere they have free alcohol,
but then don't have that same money
or only have the same moneyfor all of their EDI efforts.
And yeah,I really do see this kind of waning
(18:33):
of the urgencythat was definitely felt in 2020
that has not necessarilyhad all the lasting impacts for
Black folks, Indigenous folks, trans folksin the workplace that we want to see.
And I still have seen progress personally.
But to follow up on that, you know,how do we address that waning feeling or
(18:55):
as some people call it, diversity fatigue,which I really resist that term?
Personally,I feel like it's more resistance
that is based in privilegeand based in actually being bigoted
towards certain groups.
But how do we bring peopleback to the business case, the moral case,
the just the fact that this needsto happen and to have interest in this
(19:19):
as a lasting peace.
How do we address that barrier?
I think it's belonging.
And I really think you and Erinare on to something here with titling
your podcast "Uncovering Belonging,"
because I'm sure everyone has seenthat diagram about belonging,
being at the center of the DIYsort of Venn diagram,
but belonging is such an important partof any workplace initiative.
(19:43):
Having employees feel like they belong,that they matter, that they're seen.
It hits at the business case,
it hits at the moral case,it hits at the culture case.
It's actually the one thing that can helpconvince those leaders who haven't quite
bought in to the importance of this work.
I think belonging has been the missingpiece and will be what is needed
to move forward and trying to link itto sort of the work that we do.
(20:05):
What we've been doingwith the learning snippets
is that we're exposing people tothe experiences of folks in the workplace
that they're missing out onor that they aren't seeing.
And so we can start to foster belongingwhen we are more aware,
when we are more empathetic towardsthe experiences of our colleagues,
when we noticehow identity impacts employee experience.
We've been designingsessions called Leading for Equity
(20:27):
and it's based in equity and NGO pressionframeworks.
And it's really about how do you holdspace for different perspectives?
How do you yourself as a leader?
Because I think that's the other thingthat happens
that leaders will say, you know what,we need these initiatives for the people.
You all go do the training,I'll, I'll sign off on it.
But leadersaren't doing that work themselves.
So you've got a workforce who is moreaware who who's doing the training.
(20:51):
But leaders are missing out becausethey don't see it as their responsibility.
Yeah.
Know you've got this big gap between what
the workers want and the leadersand they don't see how their role in it.
So we've been really focusing onhow do we support leaders
in understanding their rolein creating a more equitable workplace.
Because if they're not bought in,
we're just going to continueto have the same things repeat themselves.
(21:14):
Yeah, I see this happenall the time where we talk
about the importance of leadership,and I feel like every EDI
practitioner I've ever mettalks about the importance of leadership.
I know some practitioners they won't dotraining with an organization
unless leadership is involved,and that is one of their caveats.
That's one of their requirements,which sometimes I wish I could do.
(21:38):
There.
There's definitely times,but I also know that there's other avenues
and other ways that we can find leadershipand who are leaders
within an organizationsometimes are not only the senior leaders
who are making that change,but we need to have their buy in.
So it's really about getting them to knowabout the importance of this
being longevity thing, about the messageit also sends for them to be
(22:03):
not a part of some of these trainingsand the message that sends to other staff
who then go, okay,well the organization is doing this,
but this is obviously a checkbox becauseleadership is not participating with us.
They're not. Here.
Yeah, I've also seen other companies wherethey very much have leadership there.
I've done trainingswhere the CEOs are in and other C-suite
(22:25):
folks, and I saw the change happenin that organization.
And the year that came after that, I sawthey were starting to make those changes.
So I think this is a great transitionpoint to talking about the future.
So I'm going to throw that over to Erinto see what we're looking towards.
Yeah, thanks, Jade.
And it's making
me think the question we want to ask is,what are we working towards?
(22:49):
And I want to put a little bit of a spinon it, Melissa, and say,
how do we also make surethat history doesn't repeat itself?
Oh, yeah, it's frustrating,I'll tell you, because I see it so often.
And right now,when we if you look to the US
and I see the banningof critical race theory
and the removal of certain elements ofhistory from the textbooks,
(23:13):
this has happened before.
This is not the first time.
What does it look like to have a workplacewhere we don't sort of
have history repeat itself?
It has to be taught from the beginning,right?
It's hard.But I liken it to elite athletes.
You don't just make it to the NBAand then start practicing.
Definitely.
It's about building these repetitionsand building it into
(23:34):
sort of our ways of being.
So if we think about an athlete,you don't think about
dribbling and shooting, you just do itbecause it's become so ingrained.
So when we think about like these skills,you don't just learn what
what it is to be by usand then say, okay, I've got it,
you have to see it and notice it inall of its various forms.
And so this requires practice totally.
This will take time, of course,but I think if we don't invest in it now,
(23:57):
the alternative is that we continueto go backwards and have to car way back.
Yeah, I think the other thing too is thatthese are not political issues, you know,
and that's the scary thingtoo, is that these are not
political issues,these are human rights issues.
And I think that's the other thing, too,is that a lot of this stuff
has become politicizedand then it's made it easier to sort of
claw things back, which is,you know, super disheartening as well.
(24:19):
Yeah, it is a bit of a sad place and
but I think about the utopia quite oftenand I hope that we can get there.
So maybe to close us outand our formal questions,
what does that utopia look like for youand in the communities that you work in?
Oh, my goodness.
That's that's a that's a tough question.
You know, I go back to this and again,
(24:40):
this is sort of the clichéwhere people feel like they belong.
And I want newcomersto be able to bring with them
their credentialsand be able to work in the places
that they've trained to be workingfor. Yes.
You know,
I want for people to still recognizedisability beyond sort of the pandemic
and be like, oh, you know,this has been great for us to work at home
and then forget about accessibilityafter we return to the workplace.
(25:02):
Definitely that you know,I have a young daughter
and when she is older, I kind ofwant her to be able to go to a workplace
and that she's going to be able to seeherself reflected in that workplace.
So I have two children as well.
And if we can be part of creatingthat world where they can
just be their best selves,that's what it means to me.
And for anyone who's been in loveor in partnership, you just have this ease
(25:25):
about how you can enter into conversation
and what you talk aboutand how you share things with one another.
And that's got to be somewhereon that spectrum of belonging in terms of
I'm going to show up at work
and if I'm having a great day,I want to be like my fullest self.
And if I'm not having a great day,I want to be able to tell people like,
yeah, today is just not like greatfor me and like, I might need this from
(25:48):
you and just having that open and honestdialog back and forth.
And so if we can paint that picture
and create that place,I think we've gotten somewhere.
So I love that image you painted for us.
We gave a little warning at the beginningthat we would go through Rapid Fire,
so I hope you're ready.
So if there's one book or resource thatyou could recommend, what would it be?
(26:13):
Shadows at Dawn, An Apache Massacrein the Violence of History.
And this is by Karl Jacoby.
This is an American book,
but it shines a light onhow if we only have one narrative
or if we only hear from certain voices,we are missing so much of the picture.
I remember I tooka course on the history of photography
and so, you know, when you startto look at images and pictures
and you realize like you're only seeingwhat's in the frame and you're missing
(26:36):
everything that's happeningbeyond the frame.
And especiallywhen we look at colonial pictures
and you realize that beyond the frame,that's the reality that's happening.
We've just sort of stagedthis one photo, this one moment,
and that beyond that is what we needto be paying attention to.
I am a photographer, and you're right.
It's a next Rapidfire question.
What brings you joy? No matter what.
(26:58):
My daughter,I have to say, hearing, hearing mommy.
That brings me joy for sure.
Yeah, I love that.
And what's your theme song for today?
Florence and The Machine has a new,new song out called Free.
I'm one of those people who doesn'treally listen to the lyrics.
It's kind of weird,so independent of the actual lyrics.
I just love the sound of that song.
(27:19):
We're very similar.
Melissa,So who is someone that inspires you
and how they create belongingand doesn't receive enough credit? Hmm.
I'm going to do a shout outto Ashland Johnson, Esq.
who is the presidentand founder of the Inclusion Playbook.
Great and too close and Out.
(27:39):
What's one call to actionyou like from our listeners?
Being an advocateis something that you can do.
But being an advocatedoesn't mean you have to know everything.
It just meansyou have to sort of pay attention
and look for those opportunities to actamazing.
Well, thank you, Melissa.
It has been so lovelychatting with you today.
(28:01):
Thank you.
One of the pieces that I
will take away with meis the history that we were taught.
And then the chosen space that we enterinto to learn and I would say unlearn.
Exactly.
So that's somethingI want to pass along to our listeners
(28:22):
is that idea of learningand then the idea of unlearning.
Yeah.
One thing in particular that stickswith me is how she got on this path
because of reading the storiesand learning the stories of what
was happening for her Black cousins,as well as the actual student
activism and studentsactually putting their lives on the line.
(28:42):
Yeah, and we're seeing some of that happenon a global scale
right now, and especially withwhat's happening in Iran.
And we're seeing real change
happen starting with students,but then going much beyond.
Yeah, I think if we sort of talk about itin the current context
and we want to recognizethe life of Mahsa Jina Amini, but also understand
(29:03):
that there are still issues that peopleare fighting for every single day.
And so we're not just seeing itas activism in that country.
We're seeing others in Canada wherewe're situated have these conversations.
So definitely a lot to think about
and knowing that this work is so relevantevery single day.
Yeah.
So from us
we have so much love and solidarityto the struggles that are happening
(29:26):
all over from the microcosmsin the workplace to the macrocosm
in Iran and elsewhere.
So this was important for us to discuss,and I'm grateful that we got.
To me to
thank you so much for tuning in.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
Through dialogue, educationand thought leadership.
(29:49):
Pride at Work Canada empowers employersto build workplaces that celebrate
all employees, regardless of genderexpression, gender identity
and sexual orientation.
If you're interested in learning moreabout creating workplaces, where
2SLGBTQIA+ people can feel like they belong.
Please check out our e-learning coursesat Education
(30:13):
dot Pride at Work dot c a.
Many thanks to our production team
editor and producerShawn Ahmed, Communications,
Luis Augusto Nobre and productionsupport,
Connor Pion,And of course, most of all, we'd like
to thank you for joining usfor this important discussion.
(30:34):
Connect with us on LinkedInand let us know what
part of today's episoderesonate most with you.
For more information about today's guestlinks reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Pride at Work
Canada's website.
Thank you so muchfor coming on this journey with us to
uncover belonging.
I really think you and Erin are on to something here
with titling your podcast "Uncovering Belonging,"
because I'm sure everyone has seenthat diagram about belonging
being at the center of the DEI,(sort of) Venn diagram.
But belonging is such an important partof any workplace initiative.
Having employees feel like they belong,that they matter, that they're seen.
(00:20):
It hits at the business case,it hits at the moral case.
It hits at the culture case.
I'm Jade Pichette,
they/them.
And I'm Erin Davis.
They use the pronouns she and her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories of unique voices
of what it means to belong.
And the journeyto finding our authentic self.
(00:45):
I'm really excited, Erin,to introduce Dr.
Melissa Horne, who I got to connect withthrough having listened to her podcast.
Just one Q. "Welcome to Just One Q.
I'm Dr.
Melissa Horne,a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advocate.
Such a fantastic podcast and gave honestlya lot of inspiration for ours.
(01:06):
Totally.
One of my favorite diversity,equity and inclusion podcasts.
We're so grateful to be on her podcastin June of 2022.
Yeah, so I'm really excitedthat we get to talk with her today.
So to introduce Melissa, Dr.
Melissa Horne,(she/her) is a historian, DEI advocate
(01:26):
and the director of Growth and BusinessDevelopment at Dialectic,
which is an inclusive workplacelearning company based
in Guelph, Ontario at Dialectic.
Melissa helps DEIchampions apply science-backed methods
to activate inclusive practiceswithin organizations.
Melissa holds a Ph.D.
(01:48):
in modern U.S.
and African-American historyfrom Rutgers University and has designed
targeted social justice educationfor organizations both big and small.
She is also the host of,as we mentioned, the Just One Q
podcast, which spotlightsDEI practitioners with cutting-edge ideas
for driving real culturaland behavioral change.
(02:12):
Well, for Melissa is calling infrom is located in The Between the Lakes Purchase ,
Treaty 3 and the Treaty Landsand Territories of the Missisaugas of
the Credit. It's recognized thatthe Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee peoples
have a unique long-standing and ongoingrelationships with the land and each other
(02:32):
and that the land and people are part
of the archeological record of this area.
And so we're very grateful to have Melissajoin us today.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Melissa. Welcome.
Welcome to the podcast.
This is sort of,
I guess, our second time connecting, butreally I am excited to hear your story.
So welcome and let us know,how did you get into this work
(02:55):
and a little bit about you.
How did I get here?
Well, Jade mentioned I'm a historian,so we'll start
kind of we'll do a little bit of a historyand then actually started with history.
I originally received my Ph.D.
in Black History, and my journey towardsthat topic is interesting.
So it happened that I was trying to enrollfor a history course.
(03:17):
I went to Carleton for my undergradand the course I wanted was full and
there was one on the civil rights movementand so I ended up taking that course.
And there is a moment there whereI'm learning about the history of these
young students who are willing to diefor rights and privileges
that I often didn't even think about,didn't have to think about.
(03:38):
Right.
I lived a fairly, I would say,privileged life and thinking about
what would I put myself on the line forand what would I what would I do?
Just became something that I they kind ofneeded to preserve a little bit.
What, you know,what were things that mattered to me?
Hi, everyone,
this is Jade and I'm recording this afterthe fact during the discussion today.
(04:02):
One thing that I find particularlyinteresting is how her journey led
to a Ph.D.
focused on Black historyand the Civil Rights Movement.
It's always importantin how we address these discussions,
where it's important to learn about Blackand other civil rights histories
that so few of us were taughtin-depth, in reality, in school.
(04:25):
We also have to be very awareto not center ourselves
when we are white in these discussions.
So we need to know history.
And knowing history is powerful
and recognizing how civil rightsand other movements for justice
are interconnected and linked,which is a big part
of today's discussion.
(04:47):
And for me,knowing that my cousins who are Black,
they were having different experiencesand I was having
and so that sort of all came togetherthinking about, okay,
there's a lot in the world that I can do.
And and I just became really interestedin sort of the idea of race,
the history of race,
you know, the fact thatthis is a construct that has been created
to create inequalitiesand to oppress people.
And so I got really interested in learningabout how race was taught.
(05:11):
So after the Civil War,the formerly enslaved men
and women of the South,along with missionaries from the North,
founded our Historically Black Collegesand Universities, which we now call
Historically Black Collegesand Universities.
At the time,you know, they weren't called that,
but so I was really interestedin the idea of given that these schools
were being foundedjust after the Civil War,
(05:31):
this is also the heightof scientific racism.
How was race being taught? How, you know,
what was it what was happeningin the schools over the messages?
Because this is a liberatory moment.
People have freed themselves,liberated themselves
and are seeking education,which previously was illegal in the South.
Right.
So I got to sort of studying thisand looking at that.
And as I started to follow the historiesof these schools a bit
(05:51):
more into the early 20th century,I started to see things popping up
that were acts of resistancethat looked a lot
like what we typically associate
with the Civil RightsMovement of the fifties and sixties.
And so I started to follow that threadand I became really,
really interested inhow do people affect change
where it looks likethey may not have the power to do so.
So the Historically Black Colleges,
(06:13):
Universities in the early 20thcentury were run by white men.
They were religious men, ministersfrom different faiths.
And their thinking and the thinkingof the students were not aligned anymore.
Right.
So Black students wanted Black professorsand Black leaders
because these paternalistic presidentsand teachers were not reflecting
what the students wanted.And they wanted more Black history.
They wanted to be taught topicsthat mattered and were relevant to them.
(06:35):
And so you start to see thatthrough resistance, through organizing,
that Black presidents start to be hiredand replace the white presidents.
So as I'm living and livingand working in the U.S.
or studying in the U.S., you know,
I also had the opportunity to start thereduring the Obama administration.
And there was a sort of a confluence ofthings that were happening at that time.
So we're looking at, you know,when we talk about representation matters,
(06:57):
it truly matters.
There is, I think, a sense therethat a lot was possible at the time.
Yeah.
So I'm studying this momentwhere Black presidents
are now coming into power at HistoricallyBlack Colleges, Universities.
We have the first Black presidentof the United States.
And also there's the fight for LGBTQrights
and transgenderrights and marriage equality.
That's all happening at the same time.
(07:17):
And so I realizedthat while I loved history
and couldn't just sort of sitin the ivory tower and just sort of talk
about these ideas among other professors,I wanted to live out social justice.
I wanted to do workthat really felt meaningful to me
and that would make an impactevery day, right?
So once I finished my Ph.D.,I came back to Canada
and happened across dialecticand you know, I was doing the job search
(07:41):
and saw a job posting for a role thatI don't think I was really qualified for.
But as I looked at the peoplewho were working at Dialectic at the time,
when I looked at the mission,when I looked at the projects
that they were workingon, it just spoke to me
and I thought that this was a companythat really aligned with my values,
and that was about five years agoand I haven't left yet.
And we just keep growing and,you know, it's amazing to be able
(08:01):
to work for a place where you can live outyour values every day.
I have so many more questions now.
Let's do it.So thank you for sharing that.
I am just in awe of whatyou would have got to learn that.
And I love the piece of like why I wantedto take this one course, but it was fall.
So I love that you really come at thisfrom a true educational perspective.
(08:22):
Me too.
I want to dove into somethingthat's a little bit outside of our bubble.
You said you applied for a job that youdidn't think that you were qualified for,
as did I practitioners.
As we talk about the space, there's a lotof people who are passionate about it,
but they don't necessarilyhave the schooling, have the background.
Can you tell us a little bit more onhow you brought those two worlds together?
(08:46):
Yeah, I mean, it was really scary,actually, because I had been trained for
15 years to be an academic.
Right.
It is a very particular way of working,of approaching things.
And it means that you are spendingall of the time that you might have been
working in the workforce, studying,and you acquire a ton of skills,
but they're not always readilytranslatable.
(09:09):
It's hard to parlay like organizingyour dissertation committee into,
you know, workplace jargon.
What does that even mean?
You know, you organize this big researchproject is it project management?
What is any of this?
The thing that I think drew me todialectic was one.
There were other folks with PhDswho were doing work.
So I saw that they would understandwhy I didn't want to necessarily
(09:30):
pursue academia and they would seethe value of the skills that I had.
I think the other thing too is that weoften create job descriptions and right
job descriptions
and not saying that this is what happened,
but I didn't see myselfin that particular role.
And I think we unintentionally oftencreate job descriptions
that exclude candidates.
Definitely.
But I actually just reached out to Aaron,who's our president
(09:51):
and founder on LinkedIn, and I said, look,I don't normally do this.
I literally type this.
I said, I don't normally do this,
but I really think that the workyou're doing is interesting.
I think that I have the skillsto, you know, help you work.
Could we meet? I love that.
And he actually invited me in
and luckily I started over on the researchand creative design side.
So I was designing e-learningfor veterinarian and pet food companies.
(10:14):
But it ended up being that my connectionsback to my former partner in the U.S.
that I really was able to mergelike all of my passions.
Tell me more about that.
My former partner had been workingfor the National Center for Lesbian Rights
and also with some of the other nationalLGBTQ plus organizations in the U.S.
And so we were able to work togethercreating e-learning and social
(10:37):
justice campaigns.
And so that sort of from there,I haven't really looked back.
We've just been really focusing
a lot on figuring outhow do we design really good dehydrating
and so that it just sort of again happenedthat I was able to find people
who saw the skills that I hadand that I was able to maintain certain
connections with other folksand then bring that into this company.
That's so powerful.
(10:58):
And there's such an element in therefor any organization.
Thinking about. Hiring.
Agreed.
It's so often that we just take the jobdescription,
this getting down into the weeds,
we take the job description that we hadbefore we take a couple of them,
we mash them togetherand then we put it out to the world
in the same waythat we put it out in the world before.
And then we get the same candidatesapplying.
(11:19):
Exactly.
And so if we really want to be intentionalabout it, we have to think differently.
And so the sort of,you know, leads into this next question
as you share the work that you're doing,why does this work make you feel
a sense of belonging and has thattaken time for you to get there?
Hum, that's a great question.
It was a hard decisionnot to pursue academia again
(11:41):
because so much of the trainingand your identity gets wrapped
in with the dissertationwith the work that you're doing, right?
And it's really hard to sayto your advisor
after they've also feel likethey've invested many years into you
that I'm not going to pursuethis vocation.
I hear that.
It was really hard to sort ofget a sense of like, Well, who am I now?
Like, I have these credentials,but I'm not a practicing academic.
(12:04):
And so for me, it was reallytrying to figure out what am I going to do
that's going to make me feel likeI did about the research
because I love researching,I loved learning, and I wanted something
that made me feel like I was doingsomething that I had a purpose.
And so when I first started out,I mentioned
we were doing e-learning for veterinariansand for pet food companies,
but that work was meaningful
(12:25):
because we were looking at how do you helpveterinarians connect to pet owners?
It doesn't sound that important, butpets are super meaningful to their owners.
Veterinarians love animals and, you know,sometimes there's a disconnect
between the veterinary, their prescribing.
They get stuck in the scienceand the pet owners like,
I don't know how to support my pet.
Like, are you truly in it for my pet?
Are you trying to get money out of meand being able to sort of help
(12:47):
the two people come togetherand have a dialog felt meaningful.
It felt like I was, you know,
again, helping people, which is reallywhat I, you know, I wanted to do.
Tell me more about that.
I think
what really helped me to feelthat I could bring myself
to work was just working for a placethat lives its values totally.
We work with organizations
and employers to help their employeesfeel a sense of belonging.
(13:10):
One of the things that we did waswe were writing guides
for LGBTQ youth, working with the HumanRights Campaign in the US
and knowing that we were designing,training, that we were creating campaigns
that would help kids who may nototherwise have been seen,
who could see themselvesreflected back in the report.
So we were designing stuffthat were for them, stuff
(13:32):
that like wasn't aroundwhen I was growing up.
I hear that.
I grew up in the, you know, the ninetiesand 2000, just knowing
that I was doing work that would help kidswhere we didn't have that growing up.
So, so I really felt like I was ableto do work that had meaning to me
and that had meaning to my communityas well.
The thing that I keep hearing from you,Melissa, is about impact.
(13:53):
And this is something that I also hearon your podcasts,
just on cue as well, is you're oftenlooking at, you know,
what is the impact,how is this having meaningful change?
And I think especially rightnow, EDI has become
such a buzz word within within communities
and within employers, but not necessarilyalways with the impact.
(14:17):
And I know that's somethingthat all three of us share.
And it's one of the reasonswhy I think we all could work together
in certain ways, iswe believe in the importance of impact.
Exactly.
Whether it's, you know, workingwith veterinarians, which is important.
I think the importance of animalsand creating a sense of belonging
is it's important
I get to work in an officewhere people can bring in their dogs,
(14:39):
which for me
cultivates a sense of belonging,even though my dog would never be able
to come home.
We tried.
We tried bringing my dog in.
It was it was a disaster.
Yeah.
Mine would just be up in everybody'sbusiness.
He would be way too excited every time.
But whether it's petsor organizational change
or any of these pieces,
(14:59):
they all cultivate that sense of belongingand have that impact.
So what are some of the barriersthat you're seeing in terms
of creating that impact,creating that sense of belonging,
whether that's from your own experience
or from the many different guestsand folks that you get to interact with.
(15:19):
Funding that really creates a barrierto having impact
because unfortunately the folksthat I interface with often
will come and say, we have just
this amount of money to do work,and so what can I get for that.
Totally?
Which makes it really hard
because when I know that they have budgetfor all sorts of things, right?
(15:43):
Yeah.
You know EDI gets very little budgetand other stuff gets,
you know, a ton of budget.
So I think the funding is problematicbecause people will say, well,
I can only do this, sobut what can you do with this?
And I have to say, not a lot.
I mean, we can startwe can start to have the conversation.
But if you think that this little bit
is going to result in changethat you hope to see,
(16:05):
we have to work together a bitmore to figure out and help your leaders
and help the people who hold the fundingto see the value totally.
I think the other thing that is a barrieris that people think that training
is going to fix everything.
Yes, right.
And what we do is we do training for sure.
And training is a really importantpart of the work.
Right.
(16:26):
We'll go back to the sort of the topicof inclusive hiring practices.
You can have a great jobdescription, right?
You can go through and removegendered language.
You can ensure that you've got the paybands, you can do all the things
that check the box to make itan inclusive job.
Description.
But if you're hiring practices,if the questions that you ask,
if the way that you hire people,if the whole interview
(16:47):
process is not inclusive,you're going to lose great candidates.
Exactly.
The other thing that's happeningis that the sort of urgency
that we felt in 2020is diminishing their memories fading.
Oh, yeah.
You know, the murder of George Floydis being a major catalyst
for sort of having these discussionsand sort of
creating the sense of urgency to have DEIconsultants and strategists come in.
(17:10):
That's sort of starting to wane, too.
And so we have to remind people that,no, no, you can't just forget about this.
Right.
Just because it's not top of the newscycle doesn't mean
this isn't important to your employeesas well.
Yeah,I agree with everything that you've said
and I've seen all of thisin my own work as well.
I was giving advice to a companyjust yesterday who was so excited
(17:30):
and talked so much about how great it wasbecause they could
pull budget from places,but they had no consistent budget.
Right.
And and,you know, we see often these short term,
quote unquote solutions,which often are not actually solutions.
They're tokenistic efforts.
It's true, you know, bringingin a training, but having it be one off
(17:52):
and not really having any of thatconsistency.
It's one of the reasonswhy I actually love your project learning
snippets, because it encourages employersto consistently think of these issues,
to consistently consider theseas things to be working on and you know,
I really hear you interms of many people have all this money
(18:13):
when it comes to other projects.
You know,
they can throw thousands of dollarsdown to have a nice catered
networking eventwhere they have free alcohol,
but then don't have that same money
or only have the same moneyfor all of their EDI efforts.
And yeah,I really do see this kind of waning
(18:33):
of the urgencythat was definitely felt in 2020
that has not necessarilyhad all the lasting impacts for
Black folks, Indigenous folks, trans folksin the workplace that we want to see.
And I still have seen progress personally.
But to follow up on that, you know,how do we address that waning feeling or
(18:55):
as some people call it, diversity fatigue,which I really resist that term?
Personally,I feel like it's more resistance
that is based in privilegeand based in actually being bigoted
towards certain groups.
But how do we bring peopleback to the business case, the moral case,
the just the fact that this needsto happen and to have interest in this
(19:19):
as a lasting peace.
How do we address that barrier?
I think it's belonging.
And I really think you and Erinare on to something here with titling
your podcast "Uncovering Belonging,"
because I'm sure everyone has seenthat diagram about belonging,
being at the center of the DIYsort of Venn diagram,
but belonging is such an important partof any workplace initiative.
(19:43):
Having employees feel like they belong,that they matter, that they're seen.
It hits at the business case,
it hits at the moral case,it hits at the culture case.
It's actually the one thing that can helpconvince those leaders who haven't quite
bought in to the importance of this work.
I think belonging has been the missingpiece and will be what is needed
to move forward and trying to link itto sort of the work that we do.
(20:05):
What we've been doingwith the learning snippets
is that we're exposing people tothe experiences of folks in the workplace
that they're missing out onor that they aren't seeing.
And so we can start to foster belongingwhen we are more aware,
when we are more empathetic towardsthe experiences of our colleagues,
when we noticehow identity impacts employee experience.
We've been designingsessions called Leading for Equity
(20:27):
and it's based in equity and NGO pressionframeworks.
And it's really about how do you holdspace for different perspectives?
How do you yourself as a leader?
Because I think that's the other thingthat happens
that leaders will say, you know what,we need these initiatives for the people.
You all go do the training,I'll, I'll sign off on it.
But leadersaren't doing that work themselves.
So you've got a workforce who is moreaware who who's doing the training.
(20:51):
But leaders are missing out becausethey don't see it as their responsibility.
Yeah.
Know you've got this big gap between what
the workers want and the leadersand they don't see how their role in it.
So we've been really focusing onhow do we support leaders
in understanding their rolein creating a more equitable workplace.
Because if they're not bought in,
we're just going to continueto have the same things repeat themselves.
(21:14):
Yeah, I see this happenall the time where we talk
about the importance of leadership,and I feel like every EDI
practitioner I've ever mettalks about the importance of leadership.
I know some practitioners they won't dotraining with an organization
unless leadership is involved,and that is one of their caveats.
That's one of their requirements,which sometimes I wish I could do.
(21:38):
There.
There's definitely times,but I also know that there's other avenues
and other ways that we can find leadershipand who are leaders
within an organizationsometimes are not only the senior leaders
who are making that change,but we need to have their buy in.
So it's really about getting them to knowabout the importance of this
being longevity thing, about the messageit also sends for them to be
(22:03):
not a part of some of these trainingsand the message that sends to other staff
who then go, okay,well the organization is doing this,
but this is obviously a checkbox becauseleadership is not participating with us.
They're not. Here.
Yeah, I've also seen other companies wherethey very much have leadership there.
I've done trainingswhere the CEOs are in and other C-suite
(22:25):
folks, and I saw the change happenin that organization.
And the year that came after that, I sawthey were starting to make those changes.
So I think this is a great transitionpoint to talking about the future.
So I'm going to throw that over to Erinto see what we're looking towards.
Yeah, thanks, Jade.
And it's making
me think the question we want to ask is,what are we working towards?
(22:49):
And I want to put a little bit of a spinon it, Melissa, and say,
how do we also make surethat history doesn't repeat itself?
Oh, yeah, it's frustrating,I'll tell you, because I see it so often.
And right now,when we if you look to the US
and I see the banningof critical race theory
and the removal of certain elements ofhistory from the textbooks,
(23:13):
this has happened before.
This is not the first time.
What does it look like to have a workplacewhere we don't sort of
have history repeat itself?
It has to be taught from the beginning,right?
It's hard.But I liken it to elite athletes.
You don't just make it to the NBAand then start practicing.
Definitely.
It's about building these repetitionsand building it into
(23:34):
sort of our ways of being.
So if we think about an athlete,you don't think about
dribbling and shooting, you just do itbecause it's become so ingrained.
So when we think about like these skills,you don't just learn what
what it is to be by usand then say, okay, I've got it,
you have to see it and notice it inall of its various forms.
And so this requires practice totally.
This will take time, of course,but I think if we don't invest in it now,
(23:57):
the alternative is that we continueto go backwards and have to car way back.
Yeah, I think the other thing too is thatthese are not political issues, you know,
and that's the scary thingtoo, is that these are not
political issues,these are human rights issues.
And I think that's the other thing, too,is that a lot of this stuff
has become politicizedand then it's made it easier to sort of
claw things back, which is,you know, super disheartening as well.
(24:19):
Yeah, it is a bit of a sad place and
but I think about the utopia quite oftenand I hope that we can get there.
So maybe to close us outand our formal questions,
what does that utopia look like for youand in the communities that you work in?
Oh, my goodness.
That's that's a that's a tough question.
You know, I go back to this and again,
(24:40):
this is sort of the clichéwhere people feel like they belong.
And I want newcomersto be able to bring with them
their credentialsand be able to work in the places
that they've trained to be workingfor. Yes.
You know,
I want for people to still recognizedisability beyond sort of the pandemic
and be like, oh, you know,this has been great for us to work at home
and then forget about accessibilityafter we return to the workplace.
(25:02):
Definitely that you know,I have a young daughter
and when she is older, I kind ofwant her to be able to go to a workplace
and that she's going to be able to seeherself reflected in that workplace.
So I have two children as well.
And if we can be part of creatingthat world where they can
just be their best selves,that's what it means to me.
And for anyone who's been in loveor in partnership, you just have this ease
(25:25):
about how you can enter into conversation
and what you talk aboutand how you share things with one another.
And that's got to be somewhereon that spectrum of belonging in terms of
I'm going to show up at work
and if I'm having a great day,I want to be like my fullest self.
And if I'm not having a great day,I want to be able to tell people like,
yeah, today is just not like greatfor me and like, I might need this from
(25:48):
you and just having that open and honestdialog back and forth.
And so if we can paint that picture
and create that place,I think we've gotten somewhere.
So I love that image you painted for us.
We gave a little warning at the beginningthat we would go through Rapid Fire,
so I hope you're ready.
So if there's one book or resource thatyou could recommend, what would it be?
(26:13):
Shadows at Dawn, An Apache Massacrein the Violence of History.
And this is by Karl Jacoby.
This is an American book,
but it shines a light onhow if we only have one narrative
or if we only hear from certain voices,we are missing so much of the picture.
I remember I tooka course on the history of photography
and so, you know, when you startto look at images and pictures
and you realize like you're only seeingwhat's in the frame and you're missing
(26:36):
everything that's happeningbeyond the frame.
And especiallywhen we look at colonial pictures
and you realize that beyond the frame,that's the reality that's happening.
We've just sort of stagedthis one photo, this one moment,
and that beyond that is what we needto be paying attention to.
I am a photographer, and you're right.
It's a next Rapidfire question.
What brings you joy? No matter what.
(26:58):
My daughter,I have to say, hearing, hearing mommy.
That brings me joy for sure.
Yeah, I love that.
And what's your theme song for today?
Florence and The Machine has a new,new song out called Free.
I'm one of those people who doesn'treally listen to the lyrics.
It's kind of weird,so independent of the actual lyrics.
I just love the sound of that song.
(27:19):
We're very similar.
Melissa,So who is someone that inspires you
and how they create belongingand doesn't receive enough credit? Hmm.
I'm going to do a shout outto Ashland Johnson, Esq.
who is the presidentand founder of the Inclusion Playbook.
Great and too close and Out.
(27:39):
What's one call to actionyou like from our listeners?
Being an advocateis something that you can do.
But being an advocatedoesn't mean you have to know everything.
It just meansyou have to sort of pay attention
and look for those opportunities to actamazing.
Well, thank you, Melissa.
It has been so lovelychatting with you today.
(28:01):
Thank you.
One of the pieces that I
will take away with meis the history that we were taught.
And then the chosen space that we enterinto to learn and I would say unlearn.
Exactly.
So that's somethingI want to pass along to our listeners
(28:22):
is that idea of learningand then the idea of unlearning.
Yeah.
One thing in particular that stickswith me is how she got on this path
because of reading the storiesand learning the stories of what
was happening for her Black cousins,as well as the actual student
activism and studentsactually putting their lives on the line.
(28:42):
Yeah, and we're seeing some of that happenon a global scale
right now, and especially withwhat's happening in Iran.
And we're seeing real change
happen starting with students,but then going much beyond.
Yeah, I think if we sort of talk about itin the current context
and we want to recognizethe life of Mahsa Jina Amini, but also understand
(29:03):
that there are still issues that peopleare fighting for every single day.
And so we're not just seeing itas activism in that country.
We're seeing others in Canada wherewe're situated have these conversations.
So definitely a lot to think about
and knowing that this work is so relevantevery single day.
Yeah.
So from us
we have so much love and solidarityto the struggles that are happening
(29:26):
all over from the microcosmsin the workplace to the macrocosm
in Iran and elsewhere.
So this was important for us to discuss,and I'm grateful that we got.
To me to
thank you so much for tuning in.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
Through dialogue, educationand thought leadership.
(29:49):
Pride at Work Canada empowers employersto build workplaces that celebrate
all employees, regardless of genderexpression, gender identity
and sexual orientation.
If you're interested in learning moreabout creating workplaces, where
2SLGBTQIA+ people can feel like they belong.
Please check out our e-learning coursesat Education
(30:13):
dot Pride at Work dot c a.
Many thanks to our production team
editor and producerShawn Ahmed, Communications,
Luis Augusto Nobre and productionsupport,
Connor Pion,And of course, most of all, we'd like
to thank you for joining usfor this important discussion.
(30:34):
Connect with us on LinkedInand let us know what
part of today's episoderesonate most with you.
For more information about today's guestlinks reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Pride at Work
Canada's website.
Thank you so muchfor coming on this journey with us to
uncover belonging.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!