September 16, 2022 • 22 mins
What stake do men and boys have in addressing the harms caused by patriarchy? Jake Stika, Next Gen Men’s Executive Director, joins our cohosts Jade Pichette and Erin Davis in rethinking how we address misogyny, patriarchy, and toxic masculinity to create a culture of inclusion and build towards a future where boys & men experience less pain, and cause less harm.
Please note a discount code is available for all Uncovering Belonging listeners. Visit prideatwork.ca/ub-podcast/ to access the discount code for 15% off those two products:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We can move men from being stuck
or a problem or apatheticor antagonistic to saying, "Hey,
you have a stake in this as well too."
And really shifting themto be stakeholders, co-conspirators,
co-beneficiaries.
And then we're all anti-patriarchaltogether.
(00:20):
I'm Jade Pichette, they/them.
And I'm Erin Davisand I use the pronouns she and her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories and unique voices
of what it means to belong.
And the journey to finding our authenticself.
Jade, I am so excitedfor you to meet Jake Stika.
(00:43):
Yeah, I'm so excited to meet you, Jake.
I appreciate that.
As Next Gen Men's ExecutiveDirector Jake is a passionate speaker
and facilitator focused on genderbased issues related to the social
and emotional development of young men,the health and well-being of men
and communities, and gender equityin workplaces
for a future where boys and men experienceless pain and cause less harm.
(01:07):
Jake was named one of AvenueMagazine's Top 40 Under 40,
as well as having earned recognition from Ashoka, the British Council
and the Canadian Centerfor Diversity and Inclusion.
He has spoken at the United Nationsas part of the Canadian Delegation
and participated in the UN WomenSafe Cities Initiative Global Forum.
He's also a proud advisor to the CalgaryImmigrant Women's Association,
(01:29):
Canadian Women and Sport, as wellas the Calgary Women's Emergency Shelter.
Jake uses the pronouns he and him.
So happy to have you here today, Jake.
So Jade is actually goingto get us started with the first question.
So Jade
Hi everyone, this is Jade and
(01:51):
I'm recording this after the factto provide listeners with a content note,
Jake shares experiences of homophobia,
suicide, substance use and violence.
We wanted to take a quick pause andencourage you to check in with yourself
so that you can decide whether this iscontent you're able to engage with
(02:12):
at this moment.
Obviously we've had your bio,but how did you get into this work
of addressing misogyny within men's
communitiesand talking as a man with other men?
Because this is obviously somethingthat not enough people are doing.
(02:33):
The entry point wasn't really evenabout misogyny, it was about patriarchy.
And this being an audio format,you can't tell.
But I'm a six foot, a straight, white,
cisgender malelike all the checkboxes of privilege.
And despite that,
I was struggling with depressionin my late teens and early twenties.
So, you know, playing life on easy modeand still struggling. Out of that
(02:57):
my coping mechanism in my lateteens was binge drinking and fistfights.
And at 22 it was self-harm.
And that self-harm landed mein kind of a therapeutic practice
to kind of begin healing.
And my partner at the time kind of comingfrom a women's studies background,
I really came to understandkind of the gendered experience,
(03:19):
especially around masculinityand this script of "You've got to be tough,
you can't show emotion,you can't ask for help."
And that really being the major barrierto my well-
being right. As well.
My co-founder, who's my best friendfrom university on fortunately
lost his 13 year old brother to suicidein 2007.
He was a young Black manexperiencing homophobic bullying.
(03:40):
So we think that he might have beenin the closet and hadn't come out yet.
And that was the tragic end of his life.
And my struggles and his youngerbrother's experience really
wanted us to have something differentfor the next generation of men.
And I think that so much of quoteunquote "male allies work"
kind of really begins from, oh, well,we should be doing this for others.
(04:03):
And the risk in that is perpetuatingkind of like a benevolent sexism, right?
Yeah.
But in kind of our approachof like how patriarchy harms men and boys
as well as women and girls and transand non-binary individuals,
we can move men from being stuckor a problem
(04:24):
or apathetic or antagonistic to saying,hey, you have a stake in this as well too.
And really shifting themto be stakeholders, co-conspirators, co-
beneficiary parties and then we'reall anti-patriarchal together.
Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you for that vulnerabilitythat you're showing there
and really kind of illustrating what
(04:45):
we need to do and I personally relatequite a bit to your story
because I was assigned male at birth,although I came out
as a trans person and non-binary person,very young,
I still was encoded waswhat are those things
that men are supposed to do thatboys are supposed to do?
And that real lack of almost
(05:06):
dehumanizing men from themselves.
And as we know, suiciderates are significantly higher among men.
Mind you, some of that is also dueto the choices of how
men engage in attemptsin regards to committing suicide.
But we do see these much higher ratesand so I really appreciate your kind
(05:29):
of reframing that to how patriarchyalso impacts them.
And we see these impacting people at work.
So why does doing this work for you
make you feel like you belongand that there is a space for you?
That thing that you said aboutdehumanizing men and boys in the culture,
(05:52):
a quote that reallyI think signifies a lot of our approach
to this workcomes from the late bell hooks.
I always am here for bell hooks, quote.
And I'm paraphrasing here.
But she said, the first act of violencethat patriarchy
asks of men is not that against women,but that against themselves.
And should they fail to psychologicallyand emotionally cripple themselves,
they'll be met by a group of menthat will do it for them.
(06:13):
Right? Exactly.
And that kind of plays into what you weresaying, some of those dire consequences.
Women and trans and non-binaryindividuals attempt at much higher rates.
But the twisted socialization iswhat's more emasculating than failing
at taking your own life, right?
So we choose more lethal means, right?
82% of drug poisonings are men.
(06:34):
85+% on provincial and federalrates of incarceration are men.
Homelessness rate like those are all thedire consequences that that plays out to.
But from every day Average Joe to that,there's a whole host
of like negative experiencesthat go around that.
Absolutely.
And to kind of bring thatinto the workplace
(06:55):
with some of our programing,it's called Equity Leaders.
And we want to focus on equityfocused leadership.
But a lot of that is in maledominated industries.
And the entry point, again, isand how do we serve
specifically the underrepresented groupsin these spaces, but also
how do we serve the men who are occupyingthose male dominated spaces?
(07:17):
Am I allowed to curse on this podcast?
Because I always say mentreat other men like crap.
Oh yeah. Right.
I was going to go with a different word there,but, we'll go with crap.
But if we can't overcome that,how are we going to create
inclusive environments and culturesthat support belonging
when the dominant group is constantlycompeting and dominating against itself?
(07:41):
Definitely. Right?
And so it's a way that we haven'treally talked about or thought about,
but when we approach that population
that way, we're giving thema meaningful reason to take part
and not a zero sum dialog of, well,we looked at this number
and there's too many menand we need more women
and we're not going to create more jobs.
So that meanssome people have to lose jobs.
(08:03):
It becomes very zero sum,very defensive, very antagonistic.
But when we really come inwith that culture of inclusion,
that inevitably removesthose barriers that underrepresented
groups can see themselves there and thrive
because the existing group supportsone another to do that.
Yeah, I've definitely seensome of these challenges
(08:23):
in working with folks,especially in the skilled trades
and a few other maledominated fields. Hmm.
I'm going to throw it over to Erin.
Thanks, Jade.
And you mentioned somethingearlier, Jake, around the script.
And when we sort of makethat connection to belonging,
is it a true sense of belongingthat men feel inside of the organizations?
(08:44):
Are they comparing it to the script?Absolutely.
So as you do this work around equity,diversity and inclusion,
what have been some of the barriersfor you?
Your point about the scriptsis so important.
When men go off script, other men
will use homophobicand misogynistic language
to police their performanceof that script.
Exactly.That's really what I'm scratching at.
(09:06):
But beyond that, if we take a step backof what the major barriers are,
I think men are overvalingwhat it is they stand to lose, you know,
power and status, but they're undervaluingwhat it is they stand to gain.
Absolutely.
We call it return on involvement.
And so deeper engagementwith your children,
(09:29):
with your partner,a deepening of relationships,
a culture of inclusion, where, you know,you don't have to constantly think
about the competition and dominationof like climbing that ladder
and who's come in for that spotand those kinds of things.
Exactly. Right?
And so a lot of it is really helpingthose individuals navigate that equation
and seeing what they stand to gainand getting them unstuck.
(09:52):
You raise a really interesting point, too,like I have a son and a daughter
and I can start to see how societyimpacts them.
You know, gain the power, gain the title,have the big bank account, right?
Like that somehow been the big factorand determinant of success.
But then I also think aboutthe generational impacts that we also see.
(10:13):
So, you know, for those men,what was the influence from their fathers,
their grandfathers, you know, other menin their lives, boys in their lives?
And from my perspectiveand the work that I do, I say it's
one conversation at a time.
I think it really isone conversation at a time.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
And it is that generational change.
Like if we even just deconstruct the word
(10:34):
patriarchy, it's "pater"and "arkhein".
"pater" = father, "arkhein" = power, = father power.
So what we inherit from our forefathersliterally by definition.
And I think aboutwhat happened in my family.
We're from the CzechRepublic, formerly Czechoslovakia.
And in that family dynamic,I had two grandfathers
and one was a very patriarchal father,very domineering, very kind of economic
(10:57):
security, didn't have a lot of closerelationships, etc., etc..
But on my paternal side, my grandmotherwas actually fluent in seven languages.
And in communist Czechoslovakiayou don't get a chance to travel.
But because of her unique skill set,she was a technical secretary,
sent on diplomatic missionsaround the world, which then left
my dad's dad in charge of two sonsand many men didn't
(11:22):
have caregiving roles, and my dadwas six years older than his brother.
And so he took on a little bit of thatcaregiving as well too.
So that chain of like Father Powerwas broken with my grandfather
leaning into that.
So my dad, you know,I think he really struggled with a lot of
the stoic narratives,but he didn't have those like domineering
(11:43):
patriarchal narratives.
He was still a breadwinner,
but he was a very involved father,very doting, those kinds of things.
So it really just takes that one chain
in that link to break and then change itfor everyone after the fact.
Totally.
And the tough part is like my grouphas no role models, like a handful,
(12:04):
a smattering,like I have my dad or whatever,
but systemicallywe just don't have those role models.
And so it's going to take some of thatgenerational change.
That's part of the reason why we workpredominantly with 12 to 14 year old boys,
because that's whenthey're kind of losing that
innocence of boyhood and starting to actlike what they think it is to be a man.
And a lot of the narratives around
(12:24):
what they think it is to bea man still have to do with power.
And, you know, just simple thingslike I'm going to be a pilot
and I'm not going to be a stewardess, I'm
going to be a lawyer,I'm not going to be a secretary.
Those kinds of things,
those narratives still really exist, eventhough they're being smashed constantly.
But when you're 12 years oldand that's what you're socialized,
and then we, because we're progressiveand concerned, say, well,
(12:47):
you have a lot of powerand you tell that to a 12 year old,
he says,I have no idea what you're talking about.
My parents tell me what to do.
My teacher tells me what to do,my coach tells me what to do.
And so they start enacting poweramong their little friend group.
And they do it through differentiation,race, gender, sexuality.
That's the low hanging fruit. Right.
And that's why we see risesin rates of homophobia
(13:07):
and misogyny and racism at that age group.
Yeah.
And so it's such a great time to come inand a role model, new ways
of being a man in the worldand really affirming their value
as not tied to diminishing other people'svalues.
I want to challenge the, I will say, oldrhetoric of what it means to be a man.
(13:29):
Do you think we'll ever get to a placeabout like, what does it mean to be human?
I don't know if we'll ever get to it.
However, the more role modelswe have of less gendered expression,
less of the extremes, less pink and blueand more yellow, purple and green,
it'll hopefully tamp down
and we'll save some of the preconceptionsthat come with those expectations.
(13:49):
That's a tough one, right? Totally.
We have these sort of like scalesof masculinity and scales of femininity.
And how do we educate our childrenaround that? Personally?
Systems, social justice.
Like that's kind of my entry point.
You know,
there's lots of like,let's say men's groups
or those kinds of things which kind oflike have a spiritualistic bend to it.
And they talk about,you know, the divine feminine
(14:10):
and the divine masculine,and we all have it within us
and those kinds of things.
And, you know, maybe it's an entry pointinto the conversation for some people,
but I really push back against codifyinganything
as masculine or femininebecause it's it's available to all of us.
But caregiving and nurturing are somehow
still codified as femininemen will never measure up as caregivers.
Right. Because we're still going to be.
Oh, you're babysitting your kids.No, we're not.
(14:32):
We're being engagedfathers. Exactly. Right?
And on the flip side of that,if leadership traits are still codified
as masculine, women will never,you know, live up in workplaces.
There always be some waythat they're falling short in that sense.
Not to mention, like all we have to gainfrom trans and non-binary folks,
from like role modeling to us to shed likegender norms and expectations.
(14:53):
Right.And give ourselves some peace within that.
I love
that.
Me too.
For anyone listening tothis is one conversation at a time,
one person at a time.
Whoever is in your sphere of influence,how are you having these conversations?
How are you reimaginingeven the language that you're using?
And yeah.
The most infamous examplethat I think about is just how deeply
(15:13):
coded the term "guys" is and how we just usethat to encompass everyone.
And it's the hardest oneto take out of your vocabulary because
it's been so normalized to be inclusive,even though by definition it's not. Agreed.
Jake, any advice for engaging men employeesmore broadly in this work?
We are a pro-feminist organization,but feminism is a giant
(15:34):
F word for many peopleand it's more of a tripping hazard
than it is an invitationto the conversation
for them. And for menespecially, it's often catastrophes
like mental health crisis, suicide,
substance abuse, these kinds of thingsthat, whoa, like, what is this world?
I have to look at it to through this new lense.So it's very traumatic. Yeah.
And then a lot of those frontline spaces,it's around male on male experience
(15:55):
because a lot of men don't have goodrelationships with a lot of other men.
And in healing some of that,
then we hope to set upkind of a foundation for others.
And that's toughbecause a lot of people experience
that or view that as privileginga privileged population,
and there can be some truth in thatif we put resources and stuff towards it.
But I don't know howwe're going to make progress otherwise.
(16:17):
And it's not a "no, but" conversation.
It's a "yes, and" conversationbecause all of this work needs to occur
at the same time.
I appreciate
all the different framesthat you bring into perspective
in this discussion, and we have threegenders at the table right now.
And as somebody who is more femme,I can tell you that every femme
(16:37):
and every woman I knowhas still been that sounding board
for men in ways that I don't thinkthey're being for each other.
So we see this engagement of womenand femme folks
trying to do the healing workthat we can't do fully for men.
Men have to do that work with themselves.
And so do you see us getting to a placewhere we'll actually be able
(17:00):
to get rid of patriarchyor kind of change the norms for men?
I'm obviously an optimistbecause I'm doing this work,
but I'm also a realist in the sensethat Rome wasn't built in a day
and it won't be dismantled in a day. Right.
And so I see it as incrementaland generational.
And, you know, we also have to set ourexpectations up in order to be successful.
(17:23):
I think that is a great pointto end our main questions.
But we'll be back in 1 second with the Rapid
Fire.
Welcome back.
First question, if you could recommendone book, what would it be?
Going back to the quote that I sharedearlier from bell hooks
(17:45):
would be her book Worldto Change on Men, Masculinity and Love.
To me,it's the best feminist book about men
and really opened up my eyesand clicked a lot of things for me.
Awesome. Next question.What brings you joy?
No matter what?
I'm a foodie,you know, life's too short for **** food.
You know, I keep a food map
in different cities and restaurantsto visit and stuff like that.
(18:08):
I love that.
What's your theme song for today?
Moment of Truth by Gang Starr.
I appreciate the "for today" qualifierbecause it changes constantly.
I love that! Next questionwho is someone that inspires you
and how they create belonging but don'tnecessarily receive enough credit?
I'm just so inspired by Next Gen
(18:28):
Men's Youth Program Manager, Jonathan Reed.
Day to day, I know more and moremy job is to set him up for success.
And what's one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners?
Just talk to a boy or a man in your life
and ask them what masculinitymeans to them, where they pick that up,
what they like about it,and what they wish was different.
(18:51):
I think that's great.
It's a good, tangible piece of homeworkfor everybody.
Thank you so much, Jake.
Thank you, Jake.
My goodness, Erin,that was such a great and important discussion.
I'm so glad that you invited Jake.
Me too. Jake'swork is so important in this space.
(19:13):
Yeah.
I loved that languagethat Jake brought in around masculinity
and how there are trulyis the script from such a young age.
Yeah, I think that's all so very,very true.
And so much of DEI has become focusedon equity-deserving
groups, understandably,but by only doing that, we end up
(19:33):
leaving out the peoplethat we could be bringing along.
Absolutely.
There is a piece of like reality of wherewe're at right now.
I think about the boardroom table.
We have a lot of mensitting at them. Right.
If they are brought into the conversation,
if they can be the allies in those spacesbecause they currently occupy
(19:53):
those spaces, thenI think we can accelerate progress faster.
Yeah, that belonging is something we willnever reach unless everybody is engaged.
And the fact that there are so many menwho also feel like they don't belong,
I think speaks to those peoplethat we could reach that could be engaged.
I think that is a great way for us to end.
And so I think the last thingthat I'll leave our listeners with is just
(20:16):
that this isn't onebig grand change that you have to make.
It can be incrementaland it's one conversation at a time.
I love that.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed, learnedand uncovered a deeper belonging with us.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
(20:40):
Pride at Work Canada.
Through dialogue,
education, thought leadershipPride at Work Canada empowers
employers to build workplacesthat celebrate all employees
regardless of gender expression,gender identity and sexual orientation.
If you're interested in learning moreabout creating workplaces, where
(21:01):
2SLGBTQIA+people can feel like they belong.
Please check out our e-learning coursesat education
dot pride at work dot ca (education.prideatwork.ca)
Many thanks to our production team
Editor and Producer: Shawn Ahmed. Communications: (21:16):
undefined
Luis Augusto Nobre.
and production support:
Connor Pion.
And of course, most of all, we'dlike to thank you for joining us for this
important discussion.
Connect with us on LinkedInand let us know what
part of today's episoderesonated most with you.
(21:36):
For more information about today's guest,links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Pride at Work
Canada's website.
Thank you so muchfor coming on this journey with us to
uncover belonging.
We can move men from being stuck
or a problem or apatheticor antagonistic to saying, "Hey,
you have a stake in this as well too."
And really shifting themto be stakeholders, co-conspirators,
co-beneficiaries.
And then we're all anti-patriarchaltogether.
(00:20):
I'm Jade Pichette, they/them.
And I'm Erin Davisand I use the pronouns she and her.
Welcome to Uncovering Belonging.
A podcast that explores the professionaland personal stories and unique voices
of what it means to belong.
And the journey to finding our authenticself.
Jade, I am so excitedfor you to meet Jake Stika.
(00:43):
Yeah, I'm so excited to meet you, Jake.
I appreciate that.
As Next Gen Men's ExecutiveDirector Jake is a passionate speaker
and facilitator focused on genderbased issues related to the social
and emotional development of young men,the health and well-being of men
and communities, and gender equityin workplaces
for a future where boys and men experienceless pain and cause less harm.
(01:07):
Jake was named one of AvenueMagazine's Top 40 Under 40,
as well as having earned recognition from Ashoka, the British Council
and the Canadian Centerfor Diversity and Inclusion.
He has spoken at the United Nationsas part of the Canadian Delegation
and participated in the UN WomenSafe Cities Initiative Global Forum.
He's also a proud advisor to the CalgaryImmigrant Women's Association,
(01:29):
Canadian Women and Sport, as wellas the Calgary Women's Emergency Shelter.
Jake uses the pronouns he and him.
So happy to have you here today, Jake.
So Jade is actually goingto get us started with the first question.
So Jade
Hi everyone, this is Jade and
(01:51):
I'm recording this after the factto provide listeners with a content note,
Jake shares experiences of homophobia,
suicide, substance use and violence.
We wanted to take a quick pause andencourage you to check in with yourself
so that you can decide whether this iscontent you're able to engage with
(02:12):
at this moment.
Obviously we've had your bio,but how did you get into this work
of addressing misogyny within men's
communitiesand talking as a man with other men?
Because this is obviously somethingthat not enough people are doing.
(02:33):
The entry point wasn't really evenabout misogyny, it was about patriarchy.
And this being an audio format,you can't tell.
But I'm a six foot, a straight, white,
cisgender malelike all the checkboxes of privilege.
And despite that,
I was struggling with depressionin my late teens and early twenties.
So, you know, playing life on easy modeand still struggling. Out of that
(02:57):
my coping mechanism in my lateteens was binge drinking and fistfights.
And at 22 it was self-harm.
And that self-harm landed mein kind of a therapeutic practice
to kind of begin healing.
And my partner at the time kind of comingfrom a women's studies background,
I really came to understandkind of the gendered experience,
(03:19):
especially around masculinityand this script of "You've got to be tough,
you can't show emotion,you can't ask for help."
And that really being the major barrierto my well-
being right. As well.
My co-founder, who's my best friendfrom university on fortunately
lost his 13 year old brother to suicidein 2007.
He was a young Black manexperiencing homophobic bullying.
(03:40):
So we think that he might have beenin the closet and hadn't come out yet.
And that was the tragic end of his life.
And my struggles and his youngerbrother's experience really
wanted us to have something differentfor the next generation of men.
And I think that so much of quoteunquote "male allies work"
kind of really begins from, oh, well,we should be doing this for others.
(04:03):
And the risk in that is perpetuatingkind of like a benevolent sexism, right?
Yeah.
But in kind of our approachof like how patriarchy harms men and boys
as well as women and girls and transand non-binary individuals,
we can move men from being stuckor a problem
(04:24):
or apathetic or antagonistic to saying,hey, you have a stake in this as well too.
And really shifting themto be stakeholders, co-conspirators, co-
beneficiary parties and then we'reall anti-patriarchal together.
Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you for that vulnerabilitythat you're showing there
and really kind of illustrating what
(04:45):
we need to do and I personally relatequite a bit to your story
because I was assigned male at birth,although I came out
as a trans person and non-binary person,very young,
I still was encoded waswhat are those things
that men are supposed to do thatboys are supposed to do?
And that real lack of almost
(05:06):
dehumanizing men from themselves.
And as we know, suiciderates are significantly higher among men.
Mind you, some of that is also dueto the choices of how
men engage in attemptsin regards to committing suicide.
But we do see these much higher ratesand so I really appreciate your kind
(05:29):
of reframing that to how patriarchyalso impacts them.
And we see these impacting people at work.
So why does doing this work for you
make you feel like you belongand that there is a space for you?
That thing that you said aboutdehumanizing men and boys in the culture,
(05:52):
a quote that reallyI think signifies a lot of our approach
to this workcomes from the late bell hooks.
I always am here for bell hooks, quote.
And I'm paraphrasing here.
But she said, the first act of violencethat patriarchy
asks of men is not that against women,but that against themselves.
And should they fail to psychologicallyand emotionally cripple themselves,
they'll be met by a group of menthat will do it for them.
(06:13):
Right? Exactly.
And that kind of plays into what you weresaying, some of those dire consequences.
Women and trans and non-binaryindividuals attempt at much higher rates.
But the twisted socialization iswhat's more emasculating than failing
at taking your own life, right?
So we choose more lethal means, right?
82% of drug poisonings are men.
(06:34):
85+% on provincial and federalrates of incarceration are men.
Homelessness rate like those are all thedire consequences that that plays out to.
But from every day Average Joe to that,there's a whole host
of like negative experiencesthat go around that.
Absolutely.
And to kind of bring thatinto the workplace
(06:55):
with some of our programing,it's called Equity Leaders.
And we want to focus on equityfocused leadership.
But a lot of that is in maledominated industries.
And the entry point, again, isand how do we serve
specifically the underrepresented groupsin these spaces, but also
how do we serve the men who are occupyingthose male dominated spaces?
(07:17):
Am I allowed to curse on this podcast?
Because I always say mentreat other men like crap.
Oh yeah. Right.
I was going to go with a different word there,but, we'll go with crap.
But if we can't overcome that,how are we going to create
inclusive environments and culturesthat support belonging
when the dominant group is constantlycompeting and dominating against itself?
(07:41):
Definitely. Right?
And so it's a way that we haven'treally talked about or thought about,
but when we approach that population
that way, we're giving thema meaningful reason to take part
and not a zero sum dialog of, well,we looked at this number
and there's too many menand we need more women
and we're not going to create more jobs.
So that meanssome people have to lose jobs.
(08:03):
It becomes very zero sum,very defensive, very antagonistic.
But when we really come inwith that culture of inclusion,
that inevitably removesthose barriers that underrepresented
groups can see themselves there and thrive
because the existing group supportsone another to do that.
Yeah, I've definitely seensome of these challenges
(08:23):
in working with folks,especially in the skilled trades
and a few other maledominated fields. Hmm.
I'm going to throw it over to Erin.
Thanks, Jade.
And you mentioned somethingearlier, Jake, around the script.
And when we sort of makethat connection to belonging,
is it a true sense of belongingthat men feel inside of the organizations?
(08:44):
Are they comparing it to the script?Absolutely.
So as you do this work around equity,diversity and inclusion,
what have been some of the barriersfor you?
Your point about the scriptsis so important.
When men go off script, other men
will use homophobicand misogynistic language
to police their performanceof that script.
Exactly.That's really what I'm scratching at.
(09:06):
But beyond that, if we take a step backof what the major barriers are,
I think men are overvalingwhat it is they stand to lose, you know,
power and status, but they're undervaluingwhat it is they stand to gain.
Absolutely.
We call it return on involvement.
And so deeper engagementwith your children,
(09:29):
with your partner,a deepening of relationships,
a culture of inclusion, where, you know,you don't have to constantly think
about the competition and dominationof like climbing that ladder
and who's come in for that spotand those kinds of things.
Exactly. Right?
And so a lot of it is really helpingthose individuals navigate that equation
and seeing what they stand to gainand getting them unstuck.
(09:52):
You raise a really interesting point, too,like I have a son and a daughter
and I can start to see how societyimpacts them.
You know, gain the power, gain the title,have the big bank account, right?
Like that somehow been the big factorand determinant of success.
But then I also think aboutthe generational impacts that we also see.
(10:13):
So, you know, for those men,what was the influence from their fathers,
their grandfathers, you know, other menin their lives, boys in their lives?
And from my perspectiveand the work that I do, I say it's
one conversation at a time.
I think it really isone conversation at a time.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
And it is that generational change.
Like if we even just deconstruct the word
(10:34):
patriarchy, it's "pater"and "arkhein".
"pater" = father, "arkhein" = power, = father power.
So what we inherit from our forefathersliterally by definition.
And I think aboutwhat happened in my family.
We're from the CzechRepublic, formerly Czechoslovakia.
And in that family dynamic,I had two grandfathers
and one was a very patriarchal father,very domineering, very kind of economic
(10:57):
security, didn't have a lot of closerelationships, etc., etc..
But on my paternal side, my grandmotherwas actually fluent in seven languages.
And in communist Czechoslovakiayou don't get a chance to travel.
But because of her unique skill set,she was a technical secretary,
sent on diplomatic missionsaround the world, which then left
my dad's dad in charge of two sonsand many men didn't
(11:22):
have caregiving roles, and my dadwas six years older than his brother.
And so he took on a little bit of thatcaregiving as well too.
So that chain of like Father Powerwas broken with my grandfather
leaning into that.
So my dad, you know,I think he really struggled with a lot of
the stoic narratives,but he didn't have those like domineering
(11:43):
patriarchal narratives.
He was still a breadwinner,
but he was a very involved father,very doting, those kinds of things.
So it really just takes that one chain
in that link to break and then change itfor everyone after the fact.
Totally.
And the tough part is like my grouphas no role models, like a handful,
(12:04):
a smattering,like I have my dad or whatever,
but systemicallywe just don't have those role models.
And so it's going to take some of thatgenerational change.
That's part of the reason why we workpredominantly with 12 to 14 year old boys,
because that's whenthey're kind of losing that
innocence of boyhood and starting to actlike what they think it is to be a man.
And a lot of the narratives around
(12:24):
what they think it is to bea man still have to do with power.
And, you know, just simple thingslike I'm going to be a pilot
and I'm not going to be a stewardess, I'm
going to be a lawyer,I'm not going to be a secretary.
Those kinds of things,
those narratives still really exist, eventhough they're being smashed constantly.
But when you're 12 years oldand that's what you're socialized,
and then we, because we're progressiveand concerned, say, well,
(12:47):
you have a lot of powerand you tell that to a 12 year old,
he says,I have no idea what you're talking about.
My parents tell me what to do.
My teacher tells me what to do,my coach tells me what to do.
And so they start enacting poweramong their little friend group.
And they do it through differentiation,race, gender, sexuality.
That's the low hanging fruit. Right.
And that's why we see risesin rates of homophobia
(13:07):
and misogyny and racism at that age group.
Yeah.
And so it's such a great time to come inand a role model, new ways
of being a man in the worldand really affirming their value
as not tied to diminishing other people'svalues.
I want to challenge the, I will say, oldrhetoric of what it means to be a man.
(13:29):
Do you think we'll ever get to a placeabout like, what does it mean to be human?
I don't know if we'll ever get to it.
However, the more role modelswe have of less gendered expression,
less of the extremes, less pink and blueand more yellow, purple and green,
it'll hopefully tamp down
and we'll save some of the preconceptionsthat come with those expectations.
(13:49):
That's a tough one, right? Totally.
We have these sort of like scalesof masculinity and scales of femininity.
And how do we educate our childrenaround that? Personally?
Systems, social justice.
Like that's kind of my entry point.
You know,
there's lots of like,let's say men's groups
or those kinds of things which kind oflike have a spiritualistic bend to it.
And they talk about,you know, the divine feminine
(14:10):
and the divine masculine,and we all have it within us
and those kinds of things.
And, you know, maybe it's an entry pointinto the conversation for some people,
but I really push back against codifyinganything
as masculine or femininebecause it's it's available to all of us.
But caregiving and nurturing are somehow
still codified as femininemen will never measure up as caregivers.
Right. Because we're still going to be.
Oh, you're babysitting your kids.No, we're not.
(14:32):
We're being engagedfathers. Exactly. Right?
And on the flip side of that,if leadership traits are still codified
as masculine, women will never,you know, live up in workplaces.
There always be some waythat they're falling short in that sense.
Not to mention, like all we have to gainfrom trans and non-binary folks,
from like role modeling to us to shed likegender norms and expectations.
(14:53):
Right.And give ourselves some peace within that.
I love
that.
Me too.
For anyone listening tothis is one conversation at a time,
one person at a time.
Whoever is in your sphere of influence,how are you having these conversations?
How are you reimaginingeven the language that you're using?
And yeah.
The most infamous examplethat I think about is just how deeply
(15:13):
coded the term "guys" is and how we just usethat to encompass everyone.
And it's the hardest oneto take out of your vocabulary because
it's been so normalized to be inclusive,even though by definition it's not. Agreed.
Jake, any advice for engaging men employeesmore broadly in this work?
We are a pro-feminist organization,but feminism is a giant
(15:34):
F word for many peopleand it's more of a tripping hazard
than it is an invitationto the conversation
for them. And for menespecially, it's often catastrophes
like mental health crisis, suicide,
substance abuse, these kinds of thingsthat, whoa, like, what is this world?
I have to look at it to through this new lense.So it's very traumatic. Yeah.
And then a lot of those frontline spaces,it's around male on male experience
(15:55):
because a lot of men don't have goodrelationships with a lot of other men.
And in healing some of that,
then we hope to set upkind of a foundation for others.
And that's toughbecause a lot of people experience
that or view that as privileginga privileged population,
and there can be some truth in thatif we put resources and stuff towards it.
But I don't know howwe're going to make progress otherwise.
(16:17):
And it's not a "no, but" conversation.
It's a "yes, and" conversationbecause all of this work needs to occur
at the same time.
I appreciate
all the different framesthat you bring into perspective
in this discussion, and we have threegenders at the table right now.
And as somebody who is more femme,I can tell you that every femme
(16:37):
and every woman I knowhas still been that sounding board
for men in ways that I don't thinkthey're being for each other.
So we see this engagement of womenand femme folks
trying to do the healing workthat we can't do fully for men.
Men have to do that work with themselves.
And so do you see us getting to a placewhere we'll actually be able
(17:00):
to get rid of patriarchyor kind of change the norms for men?
I'm obviously an optimistbecause I'm doing this work,
but I'm also a realist in the sensethat Rome wasn't built in a day
and it won't be dismantled in a day. Right.
And so I see it as incrementaland generational.
And, you know, we also have to set ourexpectations up in order to be successful.
(17:23):
I think that is a great pointto end our main questions.
But we'll be back in 1 second with the Rapid
Fire.
Welcome back.
First question, if you could recommendone book, what would it be?
Going back to the quote that I sharedearlier from bell hooks
(17:45):
would be her book Worldto Change on Men, Masculinity and Love.
To me,it's the best feminist book about men
and really opened up my eyesand clicked a lot of things for me.
Awesome. Next question.What brings you joy?
No matter what?
I'm a foodie,you know, life's too short for **** food.
You know, I keep a food map
in different cities and restaurantsto visit and stuff like that.
(18:08):
I love that.
What's your theme song for today?
Moment of Truth by Gang Starr.
I appreciate the "for today" qualifierbecause it changes constantly.
I love that! Next questionwho is someone that inspires you
and how they create belonging but don'tnecessarily receive enough credit?
I'm just so inspired by Next Gen
(18:28):
Men's Youth Program Manager, Jonathan Reed.
Day to day, I know more and moremy job is to set him up for success.
And what's one call to actionyou'd like from our listeners?
Just talk to a boy or a man in your life
and ask them what masculinitymeans to them, where they pick that up,
what they like about it,and what they wish was different.
(18:51):
I think that's great.
It's a good, tangible piece of homeworkfor everybody.
Thank you so much, Jake.
Thank you, Jake.
My goodness, Erin,that was such a great and important discussion.
I'm so glad that you invited Jake.
Me too. Jake'swork is so important in this space.
(19:13):
Yeah.
I loved that languagethat Jake brought in around masculinity
and how there are trulyis the script from such a young age.
Yeah, I think that's all so very,very true.
And so much of DEI has become focusedon equity-deserving
groups, understandably,but by only doing that, we end up
(19:33):
leaving out the peoplethat we could be bringing along.
Absolutely.
There is a piece of like reality of wherewe're at right now.
I think about the boardroom table.
We have a lot of mensitting at them. Right.
If they are brought into the conversation,
if they can be the allies in those spacesbecause they currently occupy
(19:53):
those spaces, thenI think we can accelerate progress faster.
Yeah, that belonging is something we willnever reach unless everybody is engaged.
And the fact that there are so many menwho also feel like they don't belong,
I think speaks to those peoplethat we could reach that could be engaged.
I think that is a great way for us to end.
And so I think the last thingthat I'll leave our listeners with is just
(20:16):
that this isn't onebig grand change that you have to make.
It can be incrementaland it's one conversation at a time.
I love that.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We hope you enjoyed, learnedand uncovered a deeper belonging with us.
We would also like to thank and sharea brief message from our sponsors.
(20:40):
Pride at Work Canada.
Through dialogue,
education, thought leadershipPride at Work Canada empowers
employers to build workplacesthat celebrate all employees
regardless of gender expression,gender identity and sexual orientation.
If you're interested in learning moreabout creating workplaces, where
(21:01):
2SLGBTQIA+people can feel like they belong.
Please check out our e-learning coursesat education
dot pride at work dot ca (education.prideatwork.ca)
Many thanks to our production team
Editor and Producer: Shawn Ahmed. Communications: (21:16):
undefined
Luis Augusto Nobre.
and production support:
Connor Pion.
And of course, most of all, we'dlike to thank you for joining us for this
important discussion.
Connect with us on LinkedInand let us know what
part of today's episoderesonated most with you.
(21:36):
For more information about today's guest,links reference and a transcript,
check out our show notes,which are available on Pride at Work
Canada's website.
Thank you so muchfor coming on this journey with us to
uncover belonging.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!