July 8, 2024 • 51 mins
VHB Host Nicole Bennet and guests Mitchell Silver of McAdams, and Mehri Mohebbi of the University of Florida Transportation Institute, share insights about how an empathetic approach to planning is elevating our communities to be more equitable and resilient. From public parks to urban trails and sidewalks, discover how our diverse communities are benefitting from a compassionate approach that helps shape a more sustainable future.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints
is VHB's thought leadership platformwhere we share insights on critical issues
and emerging technologiesin the AEC industry.
I'm Mike Carragher,president and CEO of VHB.
I'm excited to introduce VHB'sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants,all future focused thinkers
who want to reimaginethe built environment.
(00:24):
I hope you'll tune in often and leaveinspired.
(Nicole Bennett)Hi, I'm Nicole Bennett, urban
planner and equity strategist at VHBand your host for today's Viewpoints
podcast on The Compassionate PlannerLeading with Empathy to foster Equity.
I'm joined by two planning and equitypowerhouses, Mitchell Silver and Dr.
(00:46):
Mehri Mohebbi.
Let me tell you why I'mso excited to speak with them today.
Mitchell Silver is an award winningplanner who is internationally recognized
for his leadership and contributionsto contemporary planning issues.
He's a prolific public speakerand specializes in urban
planning, placemaking, and implementationstrategies.
(01:06):
He served as the commissionerfor the New York City Department of Parks
and Recreation, Chief PlanningOfficer in Raleigh, North Carolina,
President of the American PlanningAssociation,
and President of the American Instituteof Certified Planners.
Dr. Mehri Mohebbi is an award winningurban planning professional focusing
on mobility, innovation, communityplanning and environmental justice.
(01:30):
She spearheaded the nation'sfirst transportation equity program
at the University of FloridaTransportation Institute,
and currently servesas its Program Director, with the focus
on amplifying the voicesof historically overburdened communities.
She has been instrumentalin integrating health and social equity
into transportation policies
(01:50):
and fostering economic growthand environmental well-being.
Welcome, Mitchell and Mehri.
Mitchell and Mehri, our Viewpointslisteners may be familiar
with empathy in general terms,but what about empathy in planning?
Can you kick us off with whatempathy means in the context
of planning and communitydevelopment for you?
(02:13):
Mehri, let's start with you.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Well, thank you very much for having me.
And I thank you for thisvery timely podcast.
so empathy in urban planning,I believe that it is,
it encompasses understandingand integrating the diverse
needs of all community membersinto city design and policies.
(02:34):
And it's all about, recognizingthe challenges faced by various groups
in the community from,you know, Middle Eastern immigrant,
or an individual with certain physicaland mental challenges
to a model that is, kind of navigatingurban environment with their child.
It's all about understanding those needsand addressing those concept of concern
(02:55):
and, crafting of spaces
that are kind of safe, accessibleand welcoming for everyone.
And I just want to quote, from CharlesMontgomery, the author of The Happy City.
He once said, and in a podcasta few years ago that,
we cannot handle the challengesof this century, which are poverty,
climate change, inequity if we don't build
(03:17):
a culture of empathy, trust and care.
And I believe in it.
Thank you, Mehri,that that's a powerful quote.
(Nicole Bennett)Mitchell, what about you?
What this empathy means to youfrom my perspective,
(Mitchell Silver)empathy really is understanding someone's point of view
or understanding what someone is sayingfrom their point of view
(03:38):
rather than your own.
And, as we do our work,I think we all recognize
that there's a lot of a lot of past harmthat was inflicted on many communities
across this country.
We have centuries of systemic racism,and I can go on and on.
There's a lot of deep pain and harm.
And if you're a plannerand you go into a community,
you must understand that pain, that harmfrom their point of view and not your own.
(04:03):
I'll often tell planners in our office,if you cannot come
to a meeting with empathy, it'sbest to stay in office.
These are real stories.
This is real painand you have to listen to what's going on.
in the book, which I'll talk about later.
And you mentioned empathic design.
Brené Brown said something so powerfulshe's quoted in a book.
(04:23):
She did a TEDx talk in Houston in 2010,and then she said that,
which was powerful, that, basically data
is storytelling with a soul.
And I want people to stop and reflecton that statement.
I mean, that's powerful. in planners.
We've all gone to underserved communities,and it gets quite contentious.
(04:44):
And you'll find out that it'snot the project that you're talking about.
to me.
That is with listening with empathy,understanding the issue
from the person'spoint of view and not your own.
And so that's why it's important.
As planners, we have to be able to havethat empathetic ear.
So as we listen, we hear the need.
(05:04):
And then we can go forward,not just address past harm,
but avoid creating any new harmThank you Mitchell.
(Nicole Bennett)And you started talking about this in your response about how we use empathy,
not just to hear from the community,but then to actually go out and to address
some of those systemic inequitiesthat we see in the built environment.
(05:27):
Can you give us an example,
maybe, of where you've done thator where you've seen it done?
(Mitchell Silver)lots of examples.
I thinkthe one that is most, impactful for me.
And it was in Brooklynand it was, Juneteenth Grove.
Let me back up for a second.
So, after the death of George Floyd,I think a lot of people
across this country was traumatizedby what they witnessed on television.
(05:51):
And as a commissioner, a black man
who was commissioner,I, too, was struck by that story.
And, you know, right away, a lot of myallies kept saying, what can I do?
What can I do?
What can I do?
to me,it was enough just to paint a mural.
And I said, that's the wrong question.
The first question you should ask is,how do I feel
(06:13):
as an ally, asking me, what can you do?
It's about you asking me, how do I feel?
It's about me.
And so we took a breatherand I decided to put that to practice.
And I ask first my black employees.
We open it up to others about how theyfeel felt about what they'd witnessed.
And we had these calls called reflections.
(06:35):
And after going through a seriesof these reflections, then the employees
said, no, we want to show solidarityabout what's going on.
But it was that listeningand hearing the stories I shared first
about very personal stories.
Being a father of two black boys,about what they experienced
and how I could not be there to say themin very unfortunate situations.
(06:55):
But we all listened to one another,and in the end, we decided
to create the spacefor healing, for reflection, for joy.
And we took a space in Brooklyn
and we renamed itat least I renamed it Juneteenth Grove.
And this was a small area in Brooklyn.
It had 19 benches.
That to mewas very symbolic of Juneteenth.
(07:16):
And we painted those benches,the Pan-African colors.
We then planted 19 road bud treesas a way of acknowledging
those that had passed us,but also for those that will follow.
And that place became very special.
That simple applicationof just hearing those stories
that is now the destination peoplego to every Juneteenth
(07:38):
as a space where they feel welcome,where they belong.
The joy that you see when people go thereon that day and other days
started with listening and listeningfrom someone's point of view.
And we were able to createa very simple space, not a mural,
but a space where people can go thereand have that sense of belonging,
that this is where I should be to expressto protest, to reflect.
(08:03):
And to me, that's just one example of manythat I've been involved in.
But that's the onethat's most meaningful to me
because it was two weeksafter the George Floyd death,
and it was before Juneteenthbecame a national holiday.
That was a place of celebration.
And in fact, let me go on to say blackJoy, which was a beautiful thing to see.
(08:23):
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell. Mehri, how about you?
I know you do a lot of workin the transportation planning space.
how have you used empathy
to address inequities that you've seen?
(Mehri Mohebbi)that was a very good example that Mitchell you mentioned, and I
and I think, like,we need so many of those, you know,
(08:45):
activities all over the country,
we needed in so many citiesthat I see that it's missing.
You know,that understanding is missing really.
And it's not just fit.
black community I see that's missingwith the Muslim community with,
you know, different, different groupsthat have not been heard
as much as, you know, other like methat I worked in Southeast Michigan,
(09:06):
for more than four yearswith Muslim community in the main, issue
that we were trying to addresswas, the issue of, understanding that
why Muslim women are not willingto use, spaces like sidewalks,
like urban trails for walking and bikingas much as other women in the area.
And, it was a very, intense project.
(09:29):
The one of the main reasons for that wasthat we want to listen to the community.
We want to listen to Muslim womenand be a part of the community.
But at the same time,there was a huge mistrust
between a specific part of the societyand public university
that I was working with,which was university of Michigan
and also the government that we were kindof collaborating with them.
(09:51):
And what we did,we started instead of like
continuing with the projectin the way that it was designed.
We started participating in the gathering
that was not related to the projectsand being a part of the community.
Like I started volunteering at differentmosques, for different events.
I started going to, community gatheringsin parks and public parks and many other,
(10:16):
you know, nonprofit, organizationthat was there, like access.
It was a organizationthat addressed mental and health issues
for for Muslim communities in Detroitmetro area.
And after like about one yearand half that we were part of community.
We started, you know, fundraisingfor different activities.
We started to kind of contributingto, their issues,
(10:37):
indirectly and separate from the projectsthey started talking to us.
They started feeling that we are differentfrom the previous people
who try to help themfor their transportation issues.
And then, after that one year and half,
I started having direct conversationwith women in their houses,
in the communitycenters, in mosques, even had, very,
(11:00):
close collaboration
with imams, their literature readersin the, in the area.
And the result of that was for sure.
We tried to be a part of the community,and, it's still a part of community.
I feel that I'm still connected and we arestill working in some projects together.
But at the same time, the resultwas that there right now have a, call
(11:21):
and a local kind of, centerfor themselves for healthy Dearborn,
which is their kind of collaborationbetween different health centers, the city
and some nonprofit,organization in the area.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you for that, Mehri.
you also mentioned somethingwhen you were talking and I think,
when you were talking as well, about
(11:41):
I think you said it took a year and a half
beforeyou really started having conversations.
And I think it's important for plannersto understand
that sometimes it takes a whileto build that trust
to really get engaged in the community,so you can really have
that impact that you want,but that's a part of being empathetic.
(12:03):
I mean, you really have to put yourselfin the community so you understand,
what they're going through.
Mehri, you're in, in academia,and you have the transportation
equity program.
How do you prepare your planners,
your students, to approach a project,
whether it's a research projector a project on the ground
(12:26):
with the spirit of empathy,
especially if it's something they haven'treally been conscious of before.
(Mehri Mohebbi)That's a very good question.
And I think that it'snot just for students in planning,
it's the students, like for example,in civil engineering as well.
all the students in urban planning,in architecture and urban design, in
(12:47):
and also in engineering in schools
needs to understandthe impact of the projects that they have.
Oftentimes, like the mainfocus of different departments
are on technical education, and they missthe essential piece of teaching,
students about the impactof their voice in the society.
So in the planning school, specifically,and the,
(13:09):
there are, lots of opportunitiesfor students to get, engage
and learn about, conceptssuch as social justice, you know, equity.
And they have a specific,part of the curriculum,
focusing on community engagement.
you talk about the transportation itself,we have a specific programs
across the countrythat are focusing on transit.
(13:29):
And the main focus of those programsare equity and transportation.
And transitis a big part of the conversation there.
but, I believe that one of the thingsthat we can do so in the program
that we have, we are mainly workingwith policymakers and practitioners.
So it's not a not a kind of traditionaleducation environment that we have.
We do with these studentsand undergraduate and graduate.
(13:52):
But at the same time, we,try to talk about every issue
in a way, in a way that's kind of resonatewith the participant and students.
Like, for example, when we are talking
about the needs of senior citizensin the transportation system,
we don't talk about senior citizens,we talk about them 40 years from now.
So we try to kind of make it personaland in this way, they can communicate
(14:16):
better with the issue that we are talkingand they get
get engage in the conversation.
We we try to make itas interactive as possible.
So make it personalized.
It's very important for our discussion.
And I believe personally,I believe that we need to personalize
teaching like we personalize medical careor nutrition.
For example, every subjects that we aretalking about has different capacity
(14:41):
and there are numerous waysto tell their story
in a way that kind of ignitethe light of empathy in our students.
And I think we have those tools in hand.
We just need to be mindful of using those.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell.
what do you think about, Mehri mentionedworking with
the technical sides of the field.
(15:03):
you know, as planners, we, we spenda lot of time working with engineers.
what do you say to, planners and engineers
about approaching a project with empathy?
Especially if that's nothow someone is programed to think.
(Mitchell Silver)Depending on profession, I always encourage them
to read their code of ethics.
(15:23):
I've read the code of ethics of Plannersand engineers,
and all of them,have a lot of similarities,
which is to protect the public health,safety and welfare and put people first.
They have to understand
their mission is not just a physical,but these are real people and real lives,
and you're going to engage the public,that is a serious, serious commitment.
(15:44):
These are memories.
These are stories.
These are emotions.
In some cases, generational trauma.
People see the inequity firsthand.
This community is benefiting fromgreat assets and parks and facilities,
and this community is not.
And a lot of people, you know, needto understand exactly how that happened.
Are you listening?
(16:05):
Are you going to be an agentto help them going forward?
And so to me, that's very important
that I share withboth the engineers and planners.
But we're all connected,all these professions.
I don't like to silo that.
We need engineers.
We need planners,we need artists, we need psychologists.
We need public health professionals.
And if you all come together,you'd be surprised how common
(16:27):
our missionsare, values or aspirations are.
And so we just have to figure outhow to do a better job at working together
and not put ourselvesin these individual silos.
(Nicole Bennett)I think
that's a very important statementabout working together.
We can't work in a vacuum and accomplish,what we want to accomplish,
especially when we're addressingequity and empathy.
(16:51):
we have that vibe,these integrated thinking workshops.
And, they're very, very impactful
when we bring togethera multidisciplinary team.
I mean, from disciplines,you wouldn't even think about,
to look at a particular projectat the beginning of the project.
(17:12):
And we just kind of workshop well,what would you do about this?
What are some issuesthat might come up because of this?
And you have engineers in the roomand planners in the room and scientists
in the room,and people who aren't any of those things.
But you get some of the best creativethinking that way,
because in a vacuum, you don't thinkabout some of the technical,
(17:35):
(Mitchell Silver)And Nicole, if you'll give me liberty.
now, I've been doing work in diversityand equity and inclusion.
They weren't all mushed togetherover the past 30 years.
Each one had their own time and space,
but now we've kind of merged themtogether.
but I always start off any processwith a clear understanding
of any teamthat I'm on about what those words mean.
(17:58):
The first we just mentionedand a reason why I'm concerned today,
we far too often acronym things.
And to me diversity,equity and inclusion are very dignified
and respectful wordsthat warrant their own space.
And when you acronym it togetherDei, it now
(18:18):
becomes an ideology and no one knowswhat you're talking about.
And now your subjectis that now the new critical race theory.
What is this Deiand I've been doing this for 30 years,
so let me give you my explanationof each one, because your first point
really elevated that.
And diversitymeans the value of different perspectives.
Period.
(18:39):
That's it.
Black, white, Muslim, Jewish, Christian,
different generations, different genders,
different sexual orientationin the community and on your team.
If you want the best outcome, there isa value of different perspectives.
That's what diversity means.
Not black, white, not affirmative action.
(19:01):
It means the valueof different perspectives.
The word equityquite simply means fairness.
Far too oftenwe apply equity to every word
you could think of transportation equity,health equity, park equity.
This equity and to me is about fairness.
This community got benefits.
This one did notand then the word inclusion,
to be included, to be welcomed,to create a sense of belonging.
(19:25):
So when we take these words individuallyand give them
their dignity and respect,we can have a conversation.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you. Mitchell.
Yeah, I think we're all, paying very close attention to
to what's going on and sort ofholding our breath or screaming.
I mean, we're at one end of the spectrumor the other.
Mehri you mentioned in one of your,responses you were talking about data
(19:50):
and the data that, weren't availablefor particular parts of the population.
And I'm wondering, like, datasometimes helps us move the needle
when we're talking about equityand empathy, because we have so many
decision makers who are data focused.
So it helps when we have datato inform our recommendations.
(20:12):
With, smart technologiesand other innovations
changing the landscape,to what degree is new data
that was not availablefive, 10 or 50 years ago?
Changing planning?
What data is still missing?
(Mehri Mohebbi)Okay.
So so I believe that yes, technologyand data is helping a lot.
And for, for us, understanding,you know,
(20:35):
like social media analysis, big dataanalyzes that we're using need basis.
So understanding for sample
pattern of inequality for accessto food, for access to healthcare.
It you know, so many different, you know, planning studies that we are doing.
and also there are lots of new toolsthat we are using I call sample,
we use metaversefor the community engagement.
(20:57):
And when we want to, invite
generation X and Z to the
table of decision making,you know, specifically them.
And they are using gaming,
for engaging children and older adultsin the community engagement process.
So there are lots of and new advancement
tools that we are using in daily basisin our practices.
(21:18):
But at the same time, what I see right nowhappening is that we are,
focusing, emphasizingso much on the quantitative data
that we can have very easily.
And we are missing the connectionwith the qualitative data, which is,
kind of if we continue in the waythat we are doing this today, it will kind
of, widen the gap that we have, equity gapthat we are seeing right now.
(21:41):
So we need to be mindful at the same timethat we are very good with, with numbers,
and we are using so much data that we aregetting from the cars, from the,
you know, different sensorsthat we are putting all over the place
in the cities and the camerasand everything like that.
At the same time, we need to, analyzethose data qualitatively,
and use those qualitative dataand also add
(22:03):
the data that we are receivingfrom the direct communication
with the community membersthis is very essential in many of those,
after funding that we have for different,you know, planning projects,
we don't consider, you know, enough budgetfor community engagement.
I work as a senior plannerin different states as well.
Before, before coming to the academia.
(22:25):
And I saw that in many caseswhen we invite communities to the,
you know, decision making table, it'swhen we are in the design phase,
which is very late, and we need to startvery early in the process.
And that's the reason I and Iand I believe in that.
That's the community, the, you know,I generally do not trust government
(22:45):
because we make the decision we design
and then we just ask them to score,alternative
A, B and C,and it's not the respectful way of asking.
So one opinion about the changes that youare making to their their everyday life.
I'm not saying that it's happeningall the time, but most of the time
we don't have enough budgetfor community engagement,
(23:07):
and I believe it's the missingpart of the equation in planning efforts.
that.
(Nicole Bennett)That's a big challenge on on some projects, it's having a
tiny engagement budget,but a huge engagement scope.
there are many things that you want to do
or that you're being asked to do,but the budget isn't there.
(23:28):
The community is being broughtin too late.
there's a difference between engagingand informing.
Lots of timeswe say we're doing community engagement,
but we're actually justinforming the public about what
we're going to doand asking for what they think about it,
rather than fostering an environmentof co-creation with them.
(23:50):
(Mitchell Silver)Right.
I agree with Mehriabout, the qualitative data I remember
as commissioner during budget timeand the deputy mayor said,
why should I give you money to parksand not the fire department?
What's the value of parks?
And how do you quantify that?
I mean, how do you set up a databaseto measure the value of parks?
Now, I jokingly said,we need to close all the parks
(24:12):
down for a week,and you'll see the value of parks loaded.
I know that Covid was about to happen,and all of a sudden
and of course I said,that's the value of parks.
they are a sanctuaries of sanity.
Physical as well.
Well, as mental wellbeing, other benefits.
one project we worked on in, Asheville.
We were hired, to come up with a plan,after the Vance monument was taken down,
(24:37):
which was a racist North Carolina
governor that a lot of the blackresidents did not feel comfortable.
And the square, Park Square was,
basically the intersection of commerce,of government, of entertainment.
And there was this huge monument of,Governor Vance.
And, we did our listening sessions,but it was listening sessions
just as you were saying,weren't informing.
(24:58):
And those were very,very uncomfortable conversations.
I cannot begin to tell you the informationwe received of those listening sessions.
I asked a few questionsand then I just listened.
Truly listened and didn't respond,didn't talk and let people share.
And it was a one story.
And I have a photograph of,which really just started our path toward
(25:23):
unity of what should happen in the spacewhere there was this Jewish woman.
She was a child at the time.
her father supermarket was set on firein the black community,
and the fire departmentdid not come to put it out.
And all these black men, with theirbuckets, help to put out the fire.
And she.
I know she huggedthis woman named Albert to publicly thank.
(25:46):
And it was this emotional.Even now, I'm getting emotional.
It was such a beautiful momentthat the two of them hugged.
I stopped the meeting
because there was no pointto going forward and allow that moment
to take its place and out of that,people said, you know something?
This space has to be about unity.
yes. It has to be a space for healing.
(26:06):
But we're here now,and we have to go forward.
And now the final productwhich is moving forward was really based
on those listening sessions,listening, truly listening, as I said,
from someone else's point of viewand not your preconceived notion
as an engineer or a planner or a designer,
you're just there to recordand and to listen.
(26:29):
And then from that, as you said, you startto co-create a plan going forward.
So that's a great lesson, Mehri,I'm glad you said that.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, that that was it. That was a great example.
that was a very touching moment.
I experienced something similarto that in Muslim community, too.
about the interaction between
Muslim communityand Asian American in Detroit metro area.
(26:50):
I was working with the Cityof Seattle Department of Transportation,
and they had a programand they still have a program
that they educate community membersabout the public decision
making processes,and then they are being and hired
by the department as the city liaisonfor the different projects.
(27:10):
And So the kind of city startedthose programs
to create a long term relationshipwith the community
and at the same time diversifytheir workforce and have people with,
who kind of have the same lived
experiences as other community members,and they're not professional.
So you know,
people have a different background from,you know, social science,
(27:32):
someone in business, you know, I schooldiploma in different levels of education
and they're just, participate in a shortperiod of time and learning process
and at the, Department of Transportation,and then they will be hired
for different projects.
I think that's that'sa very important part of the equation.
We need to have this diverseset of experiences,
(27:55):
diverse set of personal and and alsoprofessional experiences in our workforce,
which is really missing, specificallylike in transportation planning field
and that I'm involved and it's,and it's very sad that we see like,
in some areas, the diversity
is not being understood as a wayit should be understood.
(28:16):
And, it's kind of, as Michelle mentions,that it's focused on some specific,
you know, aspect of diversity,but it's a very broad,
subject and topic that we,we are all I agree about that.
But it seems that it'sthat's been misunderstood.
Nicole, I know you have other questions.
I just have to say a little bitabout diversity.
(28:37):
So people are listening.
Diversity is not about representand reflect.
Far too often people say,oh, we're missing a muslim voice.
We're missing a black voice.
We're missing Hispanic voice.
To me, diversityis that I want to have the power
and authority to make change,
not just to represent and reflect,but if I'm going to be appointed. 511 (Mitchell Silver) 00:29:00,438 --> 00:29:04,142 Because when I was commissioner, yes, we renamed 28 spaces.
(29:04):
After Black Experience,we changed policies.
We truly advanced diversity,equity, inclusion by having more women and
and people of color in leadershippositions who are definitely qualified.
And so I just want to make surewe're talking about diversity.
It's not just represent and reflect,but that those individuals
have the power to make decisionsand to also help, change
(29:27):
whatever circumstance that they're is.I wanted to talk about, new mobility
(Nicole Bennett)and energy and coastal resiliency, and empathy,
new mobility and the electrificationof the transportation system,
electric vehicles,autonomous aircraft, e-scooters
and more are bringingbig change to our communities.
(29:49):
How can planners effectively engagewith communities to better understand
their needs, concerns and aspirationsfor incorporating new mobility
into their livesand making sure that everyone benefits?
(Mehri Mohebbi)I think the main thing that we need to,
be mindful is, about the,
(30:10):
benefits and burden that this new mobilityhave and different sections
of the population, like, for example,you know, that, where we are
putting the charging stations,you know, we are using a,
a huge amount of, you know, landfor there's charging stations
in some communities that they,they don't afford having electric car.
(30:30):
so they're not benefiting.
but they, they face the burden of,you know, those infrastructure.
So it's something that you see happeningall over the country for different types
of, you know, new mobilities, like, for example, e-scooter.
there's some communitiesthat they're not using that,
but they are facingsimilar issues caused by e-scooters.
(30:51):
We need to, at the same time that we are,letting different industry leaders
in this new, new mobilities and,you know, take kind of ownership
of different parts of the cities,for their services.
At the same time, we need to havecontinuous evaluation of the services
and have continuous conversationwith the community
(31:13):
to see what type of issues it cause.
We we can change those services over timebased on the,
monitoring, frequentmonitoring of the services.
But it's not something that, generallythe cities
have the, budget for that,but it's really worth it.
And in the long term it's also helpand improve like the know the,
(31:34):
the, the services itself,if you understand that
where those services are needed moreand what type of issues those costs.
And these also, decrease the level of,you know, harm
that, those type of servicescan have two different types and
part of community as well.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell.
(31:55):
(Mitchell Silver)Yeah.
I certainly see the value
in offering more, more choices.
And by using electricity,
we're not contributingmore CO2, to the planet,
(32:15):
so I'm all for it.
however, I want to make sure
that a trend or the trendy
doesn't take our eyes offof some of the core responsibilities.
So we have to give people accessto goods and services.
We have an aging population.
there's a big concern about isolation.
(32:36):
By 2050, I can't remember.
100 and millions of people will be overthe age of 80.
Probably won't be able to drive.
Probably won't use a scooter.
Probably won't use autonomous vehicles.
But I want to make sure we handlesome of our core responsibilities.
And far too often in our profession,we jumped on the trend or the trendy
(32:56):
and forget about our core responsibilitythat there are people
who can't afford to own a vehicle.
They still need transportation.
The seniors may need paratransitto get from point A
to point B, and can't affordrideshare to get where they want to go.
not all of it is age friendlyor for all abilities.
And so I want to make sureas we're going forward, we're fair
(33:18):
about how we present these options,but not forget about
a very vulnerable populationthat still, has limited
transportation optionsand that includes health care, schools,
goods and services,or access to parks and green spaces.
And so for me, I just want to make sureas we have this conversation,
we put all those things on the table.
(33:40):
I've seen scooters.
I'm not getting on one.
I'm training for runs and one accidentand I'm out for a couple of months.
But I see these young folksgleefully flying down the street.
some of our seniors get worriedbecause they're not always used
to looking off the curb,including bike lanes.
But I think that, yes, we have to do itall responsibly.
(34:02):
But let us rememberalso our core responsibility,
providing that mobility, accessto many people that may not take advantage
of the newer technologiesor the electrification, of mobility.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
That's that's the empathetic approach.
I mentioned coastal resiliency.
(34:22):
You know,I think we're, all in coastal states.
and we see the concern that flooding and,
climate change are having, especially insome of the coastal communities.
What does an empathetic approach
look likefor planning and coastal communities?
(34:42):
Yeah.
(Mitchell Silver)Well, for one, first and foremost, we have to understand that
the change in climateis the threat of our generation, period.
We're now seeing moreand more climate refugees.
If you take North Carolina in particular,a lot of,
let's just say, less affluent residents,live in East Carolina,
where you see extreme flooding,not just here but all over the coast
(35:07):
and a lot of places,whether it's heirs property,
don't have proper home insurance,
don't have title to the home.
And so they're losing everything.
And so for me, it's a very,very serious matter.
Not only is it hurting our planet,but now is people's livelihood.
And when I talk about public health,safety and welfare,
(35:30):
climate change is on the top of that list.
And, you know, I as commissioner,you know, we looked at our parks
as the first line of defense againstclimate change, about how do we stop this
storm surge, how do we plant more trees,how do we absorb more storm water?
But there's no questionthis is a huge threat.
(35:52):
And it's somethingthat whether you're a planner, an
engineer, elected official,these storms are coming.
The climate is changing, and we're seeingmore and more people being impacted,
particularly thosethat are most vulnerable, do not have
the proper insuranceto rebuild or to move.
And so you'll see blue tarps on roofs.
And that's just how it is.
(36:12):
And they try to get by. To methat's a tragedy.
cause of everyone to meas a human right to have housing.
And so, it'ssomething top of mind that regardless
of what profession you're in,this is the threat we have to deal with.
But it's tragic when you're seeing peoplethat are living in harm's way, and
there are some that still are reluctantto believe that this is a threat.
(36:33):
It's a threat.
(Nicole Bennett)Mehri.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, that's that's a that's a very good point.
And I think like, it also required
providing education for community members.
Like they are examples for like here
and in the state that we are therewhere community members
may have a different perspectiveabout climate change.
(36:56):
so I believe that we need to come upwith a common language
and not try to kind of convince themto see through the lens
that we are seeing, and what about varietyfor one of our projects was that,
the, connectclimate change, to some other concepts
that were more tangibleand kind of more acceptable for them.
(37:16):
And it's one of the barriers that we face,you know, we want to
and it's a kind of long term processif you want to kind of,
decreasethe adverse impact of climate change.
We also need to, work with the communityAnd I think that we have in so many parts
of, in the, in the southeast,we have this issue.
There are so many community membersthat have a different perspective,
(37:38):
and they need to understand thatneck out and acknowledge it and start
to, talk to each other in a languagethat's understanding.
As for both of us,
(Nicole Bennett)I think
that's an interesting point you just made,because what I heard you saying was,
those of us who are equity champions
also need to have empathy for thosewho might not be or who might not
(38:03):
see things our way, or who might not beusing the same language that we're using.
It's it's easy for us to talk
about how they need more empathy.
But I think you just challenged us
to have empathy ourselves, too.
(38:23):
So I'll have to think about that.
The next time I hearsomeone say something, you know?
And my instinct is to say you're wrong.
No, no, no, how can you?
You try to put myself in their shoes.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, it's a different perspective.
And I actually, I, I learned it frommy lived experience as I'm a, I'm
(38:44):
a middle eastern immigrant and I camefrom a very different background.
And it took me years to understandthe language of the professional world.
Here is a completely different,environment here in the United States.
And I really, enjoyed and learned a lotfrom people who had empathy toward me,
you know, who understood the barriersthat I face from language,
(39:05):
from culture barriers that I face.
And I really think that is somethingthat as a professional, we need to have.
(Mitchell Silver)Yeah.
Nicole,I'm smiling because I was a planning
director of chief planningofficer in Raleigh, as you stated,
I came from New York and, you know,New York has one approach to planning.
When I came to the Southand I started hearing things like property
(39:26):
rights and overregulatingand I listened and guess what?
In some cases, some of those voiceswere absolutely right.
And so when we were able to redo our planand our code, I was very sensitive.
Are we going too far?
If zoning is about protectingpublic health, safety and welfare,
(39:48):
well, what does esthetics and designhave to do with it?
And so we had this whole conversationabout the Appearance Commission.
Is that truly about zoning, protectingpast the beginning of every zoning code
to protect the public health,safety and welfare.
Xyzzy well then where does appearancecome in exactly?
Where does that fit in to public health,safety and welfare?
(40:08):
So when I talk about empathy, it'snot just the underserved.
It's having a practice of listeningto voices that may not agree with you,
but you need to listen.
Climate change is one of those points.
I talk about extreme weather.
I talk about extreme heat.
I talk about fires.
I talk about all the known outcomes,
which is directed to climate change.
(40:30):
but not many peopleare opposed to planting more trees,
which has a huge benefit,or addressing flooding
and figuring out how to do a better wayof doing green infrastructure.
I agree with Mehri.
We need to frame it differently,but most folks aren't opposed to that.
If I'm going to commute,
it has a river, and occasionallyif there's a severe storm, it topped out.
(40:51):
people are trying to figure outwhat is a better way,
protecting people,knowing a flood may come again.
So you're right.
and, you know, Nicole,you make a great point.
Empathy goes both ways,
and we have to be able to listen
from someone else's point of viewrather than are all so we do have to check
some of those preconceived notionsat the door, because different people
(41:12):
have different orientations, differentpeople have different perspectives.
Diversity and if we truly, trulywant to be diversity, that means everyone.
(Nicole Bennett)Yes, I feel like I've
been issued my my challenge for today.
So this this has been impactful for me.
For me as well.
(41:32):
so we've covered a lot,empathy and equity and planning.
Looking ahead,
how do you think
empathy can be integratedinto our curricula
to ensure that planners, engineers,
(41:55):
designers are coming out of schoolknowing how to do this?
I mean, some people are just empathetic.
They're empaths by nature,but not all of us are.
So how do you think it can be builtinto our programs?
to help our future plannersand engineers and designers
(42:16):
and thought leaders.
(Mitchell Silver)To me,
you have to have a different conversationwith students.
I'll be teaching a coursevery soon at a nearby university,
and this is one of the conversationsthat I'll be having,
because you have to personalize it
to your experience with your family,your friends, and your community
(42:38):
so that it's out of the theoreticaland right down to the practical.
Very often I talk about repairingpast harm or restorative justice,
which has three components to acknowledge,to apologize, and to atone.
And eachone of those may take a different form.
If we're dealing with the builtenvironment, which is dealing with people,
(43:01):
we have to make surewe don't create any new harm,
but we have to understand what happenedin the first place so we don't repeat it.
You can't learn that in a book, per se.
You can hear about the stories,but you have to train some of the ability
to go into a communityto have real conversations.
So I'm hoping in the course of, teaching,that we will get into this whole notion
(43:23):
of how do we plan and design with empathyand how do we go about.
I'm thinkingmaybe this may be a nice class exercise.
how do we go about that?
So to understand, don'tgo into a neighborhood,
as mayor is saying and check a box.
Oh, we have to do engagement.
And as you were saying,we're here to inform,
that's not going to cut it,especially today.
(43:44):
So I don't know if that's partof the curriculum.
Mehri,I'm sure you're going to speak next.
But if it's not, is certainly should be.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Thank you.
So I, I think what Mitchell mentioned,is kind of related
to my personal experienceas a student at University of Cincinnati.
So we had a,
(44:05):
opportunityto work in a community design center.
And in that community design center,all the projects was designed
by the community,and it was exactly addressing an issue
that a community facein Cincinnati metropolitan area.
And for that, those projects, we wentto work with community members closely.
(44:25):
We went to the communities,we sat with them.
They went door to door talking to them.
And it was really a very,enriching experience for me as a students.
That is not only it's kind of provide mewith an opportunity to understand,
you know, a different perspectivewithin the community.
It also gave me an opportunity to see,you know, how addressing
(44:47):
those different perspectivecan change the final product
in a way that impact the community's lifein a positive way.
And it's kind ofit was a very and enriching process.
And I believe that it's the best wayto teach a student
about the empathy in the planning process.
(45:07):
(Mitchell Silver)Let me add, the course I'll
be teaching at either UMC, Universityof North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
I the course I teach is The Anatomyand Soul of a place,
and I taught this before at Harvard
and data tells a story
and I usually ask the students to do this
(45:27):
analysis between two census periods.
And I'll never forget one studentshows Oakland.
I remember with Oakland, one of the lines
they had was a black community in Oaklandbetween 2020 ten.
They lost like 80% of black residents.
And so they just went by as a data point.
I'm like, time out,
(45:48):
wait a minute, where did they go?
What happened?
What are the storiesAnd how do people feel that stayed?
Because now they were,I guess, in their community, a majority,
a neighborhood, and now they're minoritybeing gobbled up from people from Oakland.
Stop. That's a data point.
But there's a story like,what is it like living?
(46:09):
I've never in all the yearsgiving that class have seen
such a dramatic change in a ten yearperiod.
And I said, no, no, no, no, no.
You got to dig deeper.
I mean, what happened to the stores,the barbershops, the churches?
What happened to the people that moved?
What happened to this neighborhood?
What happened to its identity?
Just that one data point.
(46:29):
And and if you have empathy, it's like,I got to go there and find out
for those that left, how it feel,where do they go?
And then for those that state,how does it feel?
And to me, that's the story of
not just the data point of like,okay, city of Oakland lost population.
That to me was huge.
(Nicole Bennett)I was thinking, as both of you were talking, that
(46:49):
that the key might be to have more studiotype classes.
When I was in planning school,I don't recall any studio
type classes that we were studying books.
I mean, we had case studiesand we had people come in, but,
I don't recallgoing out into the community
(47:11):
and doing the type of workyou said you did, Mehri.
And I think that that would be
very enriching, as you said,because you're you're in the community.
You get to see it.
And to your point, Mitchell, I'd like to
tell my
colleagues,I think the value that I add to
some of the projects we work on is I'mnot the one collecting the data,
(47:34):
but once you put it in front of me, I'mthe one that says, so what?
So now what does this tell us?
So to your point about Oakland,we see the data.
You can write a nice summary paragraphabout them.
So what what does it mean.
There's a story behind that.So I like that.
I hope we see that in more of our planningschools and engineering schools,
(47:56):
because we're not just planningwith equity empathy.
We want to design with empathy as well.
(Mehri Mohebbi)That's a very good point.
I remember that my, advisor my PhD advisor
always said thatwhen you have data in front of you,
you should be like a childand ask several question.
And I didn't understand it at that time.
(48:18):
But then I became a mother five years ago.
I started understanding thatbecause my son started asking questions
about every single things,lots of questions.
(Nicole Bennett)Lots of questions. I remember those days.
So, as we prepare to wrap up what,and this has been a wonderful,
wonderful conversation.Thank you both so much.
What's one thinga listener, really, in any industry
(48:44):
could do today to elevate their empathy
for their community?
I mean, whether they're a planneror an accountant,
what could they do to elevatetheir empathy?
(Mitchell Silver)It's not about you.
And you have to remember in a planningprocess, it's about the people
(49:05):
that you're engaging and honorthat understand that it's a sacred,
sacred privilege to engage a community,
to be honest with them,to be straightforward with them.
They're taking their time, their hope,
their aspirations,and putting it in your hands.
(49:27):
For those that want to get engaged,because over time,
they'll be fewer and fewer and fewer,that to me is very important.
A second point is,
and I say this to my clients, thatif you're going to engage in the planning
process, please have some seedmoney or money at the end, the stream.
This is a contractual relationship.
Me and a community.
(49:47):
I'm giving you my time,my hope, my aspirations.
And what are you giving me back in return?
Please don't tell me your vision documentbecause that's not going to cut it.
We've been on that roadfor 20 or 30 years.
So to me, it's not about you,it's about the community.
If you start the process,I encourage you to speak to your client.
(50:08):
If you have public sector clients
or even private sector,to have something to show.
For me, spending my time for thata year, 18 months,
as a down payment,so that we actually can start building
a future together versusjust using me to get my input input.
(50:29):
And then at the end of the day,you just produce a paper
documentthat once again, will sit on the shelf.
I'd rather not start a projector hire another consultant,
but I just don't feel comfortabledoing that.
There must be a path forward.
So the community benefits from their sixmonth year, 18 months time of engagement.
That's the advice I would give.
(50:50):
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you. Mehri. How about you?
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, I would just say a very, short sentence.
remember that you are also community
members, and it's the citythat you are living into.
(Nicole Bennett)that's a really great point.
That's we are the community as well.
So that's that's a good note to to end on.
(51:14):
Well, Mitchell and Mehri, it's been great.
speaking with you today about your work,your research and, your impact
in the planning community.
Thank you for being a voice for empathy,compassion and equity in our profession.
It's an exciting time to be a planner.
and thank you to our Viewpoints.
Listeners will be talking moreabout how companies are using
(51:36):
emerging technologiesto elevate equity, sustainability
and resiliency across the U.S in futureViewpoints episodes.
I hope you'll join us!
Listen in on Spotify, Apple, Googleor your favorite podcast platforms.
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints
is VHB's thought leadership platformwhere we share insights on critical issues
and emerging technologiesin the AEC industry.
I'm Mike Carragher,president and CEO of VHB.
I'm excited to introduce VHB'sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants,all future focused thinkers
who want to reimaginethe built environment.
(00:24):
I hope you'll tune in often and leaveinspired.
(Nicole Bennett)Hi, I'm Nicole Bennett, urban
planner and equity strategist at VHBand your host for today's Viewpoints
podcast on The Compassionate PlannerLeading with Empathy to foster Equity.
I'm joined by two planning and equitypowerhouses, Mitchell Silver and Dr.
(00:46):
Mehri Mohebbi.
Let me tell you why I'mso excited to speak with them today.
Mitchell Silver is an award winningplanner who is internationally recognized
for his leadership and contributionsto contemporary planning issues.
He's a prolific public speakerand specializes in urban
planning, placemaking, and implementationstrategies.
(01:06):
He served as the commissionerfor the New York City Department of Parks
and Recreation, Chief PlanningOfficer in Raleigh, North Carolina,
President of the American PlanningAssociation,
and President of the American Instituteof Certified Planners.
Dr. Mehri Mohebbi is an award winningurban planning professional focusing
on mobility, innovation, communityplanning and environmental justice.
(01:30):
She spearheaded the nation'sfirst transportation equity program
at the University of FloridaTransportation Institute,
and currently servesas its Program Director, with the focus
on amplifying the voicesof historically overburdened communities.
She has been instrumentalin integrating health and social equity
into transportation policies
(01:50):
and fostering economic growthand environmental well-being.
Welcome, Mitchell and Mehri.
Mitchell and Mehri, our Viewpointslisteners may be familiar
with empathy in general terms,but what about empathy in planning?
Can you kick us off with whatempathy means in the context
of planning and communitydevelopment for you?
(02:13):
Mehri, let's start with you.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Well, thank you very much for having me.
And I thank you for thisvery timely podcast.
so empathy in urban planning,I believe that it is,
it encompasses understandingand integrating the diverse
needs of all community membersinto city design and policies.
(02:34):
And it's all about, recognizingthe challenges faced by various groups
in the community from,you know, Middle Eastern immigrant,
or an individual with certain physicaland mental challenges
to a model that is, kind of navigatingurban environment with their child.
It's all about understanding those needsand addressing those concept of concern
(02:55):
and, crafting of spaces
that are kind of safe, accessibleand welcoming for everyone.
And I just want to quote, from CharlesMontgomery, the author of The Happy City.
He once said, and in a podcasta few years ago that,
we cannot handle the challengesof this century, which are poverty,
climate change, inequity if we don't build
(03:17):
a culture of empathy, trust and care.
And I believe in it.
Thank you, Mehri,that that's a powerful quote.
(Nicole Bennett)Mitchell, what about you?
What this empathy means to youfrom my perspective,
(Mitchell Silver)empathy really is understanding someone's point of view
or understanding what someone is sayingfrom their point of view
(03:38):
rather than your own.
And, as we do our work,I think we all recognize
that there's a lot of a lot of past harmthat was inflicted on many communities
across this country.
We have centuries of systemic racism,and I can go on and on.
There's a lot of deep pain and harm.
And if you're a plannerand you go into a community,
you must understand that pain, that harmfrom their point of view and not your own.
(04:03):
I'll often tell planners in our office,if you cannot come
to a meeting with empathy, it'sbest to stay in office.
These are real stories.
This is real painand you have to listen to what's going on.
in the book, which I'll talk about later.
And you mentioned empathic design.
Brené Brown said something so powerfulshe's quoted in a book.
(04:23):
She did a TEDx talk in Houston in 2010,and then she said that,
which was powerful, that, basically data
is storytelling with a soul.
And I want people to stop and reflecton that statement.
I mean, that's powerful. in planners.
We've all gone to underserved communities,and it gets quite contentious.
(04:44):
And you'll find out that it'snot the project that you're talking about.
to me.
That is with listening with empathy,understanding the issue
from the person'spoint of view and not your own.
And so that's why it's important.
As planners, we have to be able to havethat empathetic ear.
So as we listen, we hear the need.
(05:04):
And then we can go forward,not just address past harm,
but avoid creating any new harmThank you Mitchell.
(Nicole Bennett)And you started talking about this in your response about how we use empathy,
not just to hear from the community,but then to actually go out and to address
some of those systemic inequitiesthat we see in the built environment.
(05:27):
Can you give us an example,
maybe, of where you've done thator where you've seen it done?
(Mitchell Silver)lots of examples.
I thinkthe one that is most, impactful for me.
And it was in Brooklynand it was, Juneteenth Grove.
Let me back up for a second.
So, after the death of George Floyd,I think a lot of people
across this country was traumatizedby what they witnessed on television.
(05:51):
And as a commissioner, a black man
who was commissioner,I, too, was struck by that story.
And, you know, right away, a lot of myallies kept saying, what can I do?
What can I do?
What can I do?
to me,it was enough just to paint a mural.
And I said, that's the wrong question.
The first question you should ask is,how do I feel
(06:13):
as an ally, asking me, what can you do?
It's about you asking me, how do I feel?
It's about me.
And so we took a breatherand I decided to put that to practice.
And I ask first my black employees.
We open it up to others about how theyfeel felt about what they'd witnessed.
And we had these calls called reflections.
(06:35):
And after going through a seriesof these reflections, then the employees
said, no, we want to show solidarityabout what's going on.
But it was that listeningand hearing the stories I shared first
about very personal stories.
Being a father of two black boys,about what they experienced
and how I could not be there to say themin very unfortunate situations.
(06:55):
But we all listened to one another,and in the end, we decided
to create the spacefor healing, for reflection, for joy.
And we took a space in Brooklyn
and we renamed itat least I renamed it Juneteenth Grove.
And this was a small area in Brooklyn.
It had 19 benches.
That to mewas very symbolic of Juneteenth.
(07:16):
And we painted those benches,the Pan-African colors.
We then planted 19 road bud treesas a way of acknowledging
those that had passed us,but also for those that will follow.
And that place became very special.
That simple applicationof just hearing those stories
that is now the destination peoplego to every Juneteenth
(07:38):
as a space where they feel welcome,where they belong.
The joy that you see when people go thereon that day and other days
started with listening and listeningfrom someone's point of view.
And we were able to createa very simple space, not a mural,
but a space where people can go thereand have that sense of belonging,
that this is where I should be to expressto protest, to reflect.
(08:03):
And to me, that's just one example of manythat I've been involved in.
But that's the onethat's most meaningful to me
because it was two weeksafter the George Floyd death,
and it was before Juneteenthbecame a national holiday.
That was a place of celebration.
And in fact, let me go on to say blackJoy, which was a beautiful thing to see.
(08:23):
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell. Mehri, how about you?
I know you do a lot of workin the transportation planning space.
how have you used empathy
to address inequities that you've seen?
(Mehri Mohebbi)that was a very good example that Mitchell you mentioned, and I
and I think, like,we need so many of those, you know,
(08:45):
activities all over the country,
we needed in so many citiesthat I see that it's missing.
You know,that understanding is missing really.
And it's not just fit.
black community I see that's missingwith the Muslim community with,
you know, different, different groupsthat have not been heard
as much as, you know, other like methat I worked in Southeast Michigan,
(09:06):
for more than four yearswith Muslim community in the main, issue
that we were trying to addresswas, the issue of, understanding that
why Muslim women are not willingto use, spaces like sidewalks,
like urban trails for walking and bikingas much as other women in the area.
And, it was a very, intense project.
(09:29):
The one of the main reasons for that wasthat we want to listen to the community.
We want to listen to Muslim womenand be a part of the community.
But at the same time,there was a huge mistrust
between a specific part of the societyand public university
that I was working with,which was university of Michigan
and also the government that we were kindof collaborating with them.
(09:51):
And what we did,we started instead of like
continuing with the projectin the way that it was designed.
We started participating in the gathering
that was not related to the projectsand being a part of the community.
Like I started volunteering at differentmosques, for different events.
I started going to, community gatheringsin parks and public parks and many other,
(10:16):
you know, nonprofit, organizationthat was there, like access.
It was a organizationthat addressed mental and health issues
for for Muslim communities in Detroitmetro area.
And after like about one yearand half that we were part of community.
We started, you know, fundraisingfor different activities.
We started to kind of contributingto, their issues,
(10:37):
indirectly and separate from the projectsthey started talking to us.
They started feeling that we are differentfrom the previous people
who try to help themfor their transportation issues.
And then, after that one year and half,
I started having direct conversationwith women in their houses,
in the communitycenters, in mosques, even had, very,
(11:00):
close collaboration
with imams, their literature readersin the, in the area.
And the result of that was for sure.
We tried to be a part of the community,and, it's still a part of community.
I feel that I'm still connected and we arestill working in some projects together.
But at the same time, the resultwas that there right now have a, call
(11:21):
and a local kind of, centerfor themselves for healthy Dearborn,
which is their kind of collaborationbetween different health centers, the city
and some nonprofit,organization in the area.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you for that, Mehri.
you also mentioned somethingwhen you were talking and I think,
when you were talking as well, about
(11:41):
I think you said it took a year and a half
beforeyou really started having conversations.
And I think it's important for plannersto understand
that sometimes it takes a whileto build that trust
to really get engaged in the community,so you can really have
that impact that you want,but that's a part of being empathetic.
(12:03):
I mean, you really have to put yourselfin the community so you understand,
what they're going through.
Mehri, you're in, in academia,and you have the transportation
equity program.
How do you prepare your planners,
your students, to approach a project,
whether it's a research projector a project on the ground
(12:26):
with the spirit of empathy,
especially if it's something they haven'treally been conscious of before.
(Mehri Mohebbi)That's a very good question.
And I think that it'snot just for students in planning,
it's the students, like for example,in civil engineering as well.
all the students in urban planning,in architecture and urban design, in
(12:47):
and also in engineering in schools
needs to understandthe impact of the projects that they have.
Oftentimes, like the mainfocus of different departments
are on technical education, and they missthe essential piece of teaching,
students about the impactof their voice in the society.
So in the planning school, specifically,and the,
(13:09):
there are, lots of opportunitiesfor students to get, engage
and learn about, conceptssuch as social justice, you know, equity.
And they have a specific,part of the curriculum,
focusing on community engagement.
you talk about the transportation itself,we have a specific programs
across the countrythat are focusing on transit.
(13:29):
And the main focus of those programsare equity and transportation.
And transitis a big part of the conversation there.
but, I believe that one of the thingsthat we can do so in the program
that we have, we are mainly workingwith policymakers and practitioners.
So it's not a not a kind of traditionaleducation environment that we have.
We do with these studentsand undergraduate and graduate.
(13:52):
But at the same time, we,try to talk about every issue
in a way, in a way that's kind of resonatewith the participant and students.
Like, for example, when we are talking
about the needs of senior citizensin the transportation system,
we don't talk about senior citizens,we talk about them 40 years from now.
So we try to kind of make it personaland in this way, they can communicate
(14:16):
better with the issue that we are talkingand they get
get engage in the conversation.
We we try to make itas interactive as possible.
So make it personalized.
It's very important for our discussion.
And I believe personally,I believe that we need to personalize
teaching like we personalize medical careor nutrition.
For example, every subjects that we aretalking about has different capacity
(14:41):
and there are numerous waysto tell their story
in a way that kind of ignitethe light of empathy in our students.
And I think we have those tools in hand.
We just need to be mindful of using those.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell.
what do you think about, Mehri mentionedworking with
the technical sides of the field.
(15:03):
you know, as planners, we, we spenda lot of time working with engineers.
what do you say to, planners and engineers
about approaching a project with empathy?
Especially if that's nothow someone is programed to think.
(Mitchell Silver)Depending on profession, I always encourage them
to read their code of ethics.
(15:23):
I've read the code of ethics of Plannersand engineers,
and all of them,have a lot of similarities,
which is to protect the public health,safety and welfare and put people first.
They have to understand
their mission is not just a physical,but these are real people and real lives,
and you're going to engage the public,that is a serious, serious commitment.
(15:44):
These are memories.
These are stories.
These are emotions.
In some cases, generational trauma.
People see the inequity firsthand.
This community is benefiting fromgreat assets and parks and facilities,
and this community is not.
And a lot of people, you know, needto understand exactly how that happened.
Are you listening?
(16:05):
Are you going to be an agentto help them going forward?
And so to me, that's very important
that I share withboth the engineers and planners.
But we're all connected,all these professions.
I don't like to silo that.
We need engineers.
We need planners,we need artists, we need psychologists.
We need public health professionals.
And if you all come together,you'd be surprised how common
(16:27):
our missionsare, values or aspirations are.
And so we just have to figure outhow to do a better job at working together
and not put ourselvesin these individual silos.
(Nicole Bennett)I think
that's a very important statementabout working together.
We can't work in a vacuum and accomplish,what we want to accomplish,
especially when we're addressingequity and empathy.
(16:51):
we have that vibe,these integrated thinking workshops.
And, they're very, very impactful
when we bring togethera multidisciplinary team.
I mean, from disciplines,you wouldn't even think about,
to look at a particular projectat the beginning of the project.
(17:12):
And we just kind of workshop well,what would you do about this?
What are some issuesthat might come up because of this?
And you have engineers in the roomand planners in the room and scientists
in the room,and people who aren't any of those things.
But you get some of the best creativethinking that way,
because in a vacuum, you don't thinkabout some of the technical,
(17:35):
(Mitchell Silver)And Nicole, if you'll give me liberty.
now, I've been doing work in diversityand equity and inclusion.
They weren't all mushed togetherover the past 30 years.
Each one had their own time and space,
but now we've kind of merged themtogether.
but I always start off any processwith a clear understanding
of any teamthat I'm on about what those words mean.
(17:58):
The first we just mentionedand a reason why I'm concerned today,
we far too often acronym things.
And to me diversity,equity and inclusion are very dignified
and respectful wordsthat warrant their own space.
And when you acronym it togetherDei, it now
(18:18):
becomes an ideology and no one knowswhat you're talking about.
And now your subjectis that now the new critical race theory.
What is this Deiand I've been doing this for 30 years,
so let me give you my explanationof each one, because your first point
really elevated that.
And diversitymeans the value of different perspectives.
Period.
(18:39):
That's it.
Black, white, Muslim, Jewish, Christian,
different generations, different genders,
different sexual orientationin the community and on your team.
If you want the best outcome, there isa value of different perspectives.
That's what diversity means.
Not black, white, not affirmative action.
(19:01):
It means the valueof different perspectives.
The word equityquite simply means fairness.
Far too oftenwe apply equity to every word
you could think of transportation equity,health equity, park equity.
This equity and to me is about fairness.
This community got benefits.
This one did notand then the word inclusion,
to be included, to be welcomed,to create a sense of belonging.
(19:25):
So when we take these words individuallyand give them
their dignity and respect,we can have a conversation.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you. Mitchell.
Yeah, I think we're all, paying very close attention to
to what's going on and sort ofholding our breath or screaming.
I mean, we're at one end of the spectrumor the other.
Mehri you mentioned in one of your,responses you were talking about data
(19:50):
and the data that, weren't availablefor particular parts of the population.
And I'm wondering, like, datasometimes helps us move the needle
when we're talking about equityand empathy, because we have so many
decision makers who are data focused.
So it helps when we have datato inform our recommendations.
(20:12):
With, smart technologiesand other innovations
changing the landscape,to what degree is new data
that was not availablefive, 10 or 50 years ago?
Changing planning?
What data is still missing?
(Mehri Mohebbi)Okay.
So so I believe that yes, technologyand data is helping a lot.
And for, for us, understanding,you know,
(20:35):
like social media analysis, big dataanalyzes that we're using need basis.
So understanding for sample
pattern of inequality for accessto food, for access to healthcare.
It you know, so many different, you know, planning studies that we are doing.
and also there are lots of new toolsthat we are using I call sample,
we use metaversefor the community engagement.
(20:57):
And when we want to, invite
generation X and Z to the
table of decision making,you know, specifically them.
And they are using gaming,
for engaging children and older adultsin the community engagement process.
So there are lots of and new advancement
tools that we are using in daily basisin our practices.
(21:18):
But at the same time, what I see right nowhappening is that we are,
focusing, emphasizingso much on the quantitative data
that we can have very easily.
And we are missing the connectionwith the qualitative data, which is,
kind of if we continue in the waythat we are doing this today, it will kind
of, widen the gap that we have, equity gapthat we are seeing right now.
(21:41):
So we need to be mindful at the same timethat we are very good with, with numbers,
and we are using so much data that we aregetting from the cars, from the,
you know, different sensorsthat we are putting all over the place
in the cities and the camerasand everything like that.
At the same time, we need to, analyzethose data qualitatively,
and use those qualitative dataand also add
(22:03):
the data that we are receivingfrom the direct communication
with the community membersthis is very essential in many of those,
after funding that we have for different,you know, planning projects,
we don't consider, you know, enough budgetfor community engagement.
I work as a senior plannerin different states as well.
Before, before coming to the academia.
(22:25):
And I saw that in many caseswhen we invite communities to the,
you know, decision making table, it'swhen we are in the design phase,
which is very late, and we need to startvery early in the process.
And that's the reason I and Iand I believe in that.
That's the community, the, you know,I generally do not trust government
(22:45):
because we make the decision we design
and then we just ask them to score,alternative
A, B and C,and it's not the respectful way of asking.
So one opinion about the changes that youare making to their their everyday life.
I'm not saying that it's happeningall the time, but most of the time
we don't have enough budgetfor community engagement,
(23:07):
and I believe it's the missingpart of the equation in planning efforts.
that.
(Nicole Bennett)That's a big challenge on on some projects, it's having a
tiny engagement budget,but a huge engagement scope.
there are many things that you want to do
or that you're being asked to do,but the budget isn't there.
(23:28):
The community is being broughtin too late.
there's a difference between engagingand informing.
Lots of timeswe say we're doing community engagement,
but we're actually justinforming the public about what
we're going to doand asking for what they think about it,
rather than fostering an environmentof co-creation with them.
(23:50):
(Mitchell Silver)Right.
I agree with Mehriabout, the qualitative data I remember
as commissioner during budget timeand the deputy mayor said,
why should I give you money to parksand not the fire department?
What's the value of parks?
And how do you quantify that?
I mean, how do you set up a databaseto measure the value of parks?
Now, I jokingly said,we need to close all the parks
(24:12):
down for a week,and you'll see the value of parks loaded.
I know that Covid was about to happen,and all of a sudden
and of course I said,that's the value of parks.
they are a sanctuaries of sanity.
Physical as well.
Well, as mental wellbeing, other benefits.
one project we worked on in, Asheville.
We were hired, to come up with a plan,after the Vance monument was taken down,
(24:37):
which was a racist North Carolina
governor that a lot of the blackresidents did not feel comfortable.
And the square, Park Square was,
basically the intersection of commerce,of government, of entertainment.
And there was this huge monument of,Governor Vance.
And, we did our listening sessions,but it was listening sessions
just as you were saying,weren't informing.
(24:58):
And those were very,very uncomfortable conversations.
I cannot begin to tell you the informationwe received of those listening sessions.
I asked a few questionsand then I just listened.
Truly listened and didn't respond,didn't talk and let people share.
And it was a one story.
And I have a photograph of,which really just started our path toward
(25:23):
unity of what should happen in the spacewhere there was this Jewish woman.
She was a child at the time.
her father supermarket was set on firein the black community,
and the fire departmentdid not come to put it out.
And all these black men, with theirbuckets, help to put out the fire.
And she.
I know she huggedthis woman named Albert to publicly thank.
(25:46):
And it was this emotional.Even now, I'm getting emotional.
It was such a beautiful momentthat the two of them hugged.
I stopped the meeting
because there was no pointto going forward and allow that moment
to take its place and out of that,people said, you know something?
This space has to be about unity.
yes. It has to be a space for healing.
(26:06):
But we're here now,and we have to go forward.
And now the final productwhich is moving forward was really based
on those listening sessions,listening, truly listening, as I said,
from someone else's point of viewand not your preconceived notion
as an engineer or a planner or a designer,
you're just there to recordand and to listen.
(26:29):
And then from that, as you said, you startto co-create a plan going forward.
So that's a great lesson, Mehri,I'm glad you said that.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, that that was it. That was a great example.
that was a very touching moment.
I experienced something similarto that in Muslim community, too.
about the interaction between
Muslim communityand Asian American in Detroit metro area.
(26:50):
I was working with the Cityof Seattle Department of Transportation,
and they had a programand they still have a program
that they educate community membersabout the public decision
making processes,and then they are being and hired
by the department as the city liaisonfor the different projects.
(27:10):
And So the kind of city startedthose programs
to create a long term relationshipwith the community
and at the same time diversifytheir workforce and have people with,
who kind of have the same lived
experiences as other community members,and they're not professional.
So you know,
people have a different background from,you know, social science,
(27:32):
someone in business, you know, I schooldiploma in different levels of education
and they're just, participate in a shortperiod of time and learning process
and at the, Department of Transportation,and then they will be hired
for different projects.
I think that's that'sa very important part of the equation.
We need to have this diverseset of experiences,
(27:55):
diverse set of personal and and alsoprofessional experiences in our workforce,
which is really missing, specificallylike in transportation planning field
and that I'm involved and it's,and it's very sad that we see like,
in some areas, the diversity
is not being understood as a wayit should be understood.
(28:16):
And, it's kind of, as Michelle mentions,that it's focused on some specific,
you know, aspect of diversity,but it's a very broad,
subject and topic that we,we are all I agree about that.
But it seems that it'sthat's been misunderstood.
Nicole, I know you have other questions.
I just have to say a little bitabout diversity.
(28:37):
So people are listening.
Diversity is not about representand reflect.
Far too often people say,oh, we're missing a muslim voice.
We're missing a black voice.
We're missing Hispanic voice.
To me, diversityis that I want to have the power
and authority to make change,
not just to represent and reflect,but if I'm going to be appointed. 511 (Mitchell Silver) 00:29:00,438 --> 00:29:04,142 Because when I was commissioner, yes, we renamed 28 spaces.
(29:04):
After Black Experience,we changed policies.
We truly advanced diversity,equity, inclusion by having more women and
and people of color in leadershippositions who are definitely qualified.
And so I just want to make surewe're talking about diversity.
It's not just represent and reflect,but that those individuals
have the power to make decisionsand to also help, change
(29:27):
whatever circumstance that they're is.I wanted to talk about, new mobility
(Nicole Bennett)and energy and coastal resiliency, and empathy,
new mobility and the electrificationof the transportation system,
electric vehicles,autonomous aircraft, e-scooters
and more are bringingbig change to our communities.
(29:49):
How can planners effectively engagewith communities to better understand
their needs, concerns and aspirationsfor incorporating new mobility
into their livesand making sure that everyone benefits?
(Mehri Mohebbi)I think the main thing that we need to,
be mindful is, about the,
(30:10):
benefits and burden that this new mobilityhave and different sections
of the population, like, for example,you know, that, where we are
putting the charging stations,you know, we are using a,
a huge amount of, you know, landfor there's charging stations
in some communities that they,they don't afford having electric car.
(30:30):
so they're not benefiting.
but they, they face the burden of,you know, those infrastructure.
So it's something that you see happeningall over the country for different types
of, you know, new mobilities, like, for example, e-scooter.
there's some communitiesthat they're not using that,
but they are facingsimilar issues caused by e-scooters.
(30:51):
We need to, at the same time that we are,letting different industry leaders
in this new, new mobilities and,you know, take kind of ownership
of different parts of the cities,for their services.
At the same time, we need to havecontinuous evaluation of the services
and have continuous conversationwith the community
(31:13):
to see what type of issues it cause.
We we can change those services over timebased on the,
monitoring, frequentmonitoring of the services.
But it's not something that, generallythe cities
have the, budget for that,but it's really worth it.
And in the long term it's also helpand improve like the know the,
(31:34):
the, the services itself,if you understand that
where those services are needed moreand what type of issues those costs.
And these also, decrease the level of,you know, harm
that, those type of servicescan have two different types and
part of community as well.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
Mitchell.
(31:55):
(Mitchell Silver)Yeah.
I certainly see the value
in offering more, more choices.
And by using electricity,
we're not contributingmore CO2, to the planet,
(32:15):
so I'm all for it.
however, I want to make sure
that a trend or the trendy
doesn't take our eyes offof some of the core responsibilities.
So we have to give people accessto goods and services.
We have an aging population.
there's a big concern about isolation.
(32:36):
By 2050, I can't remember.
100 and millions of people will be overthe age of 80.
Probably won't be able to drive.
Probably won't use a scooter.
Probably won't use autonomous vehicles.
But I want to make sure we handlesome of our core responsibilities.
And far too often in our profession,we jumped on the trend or the trendy
(32:56):
and forget about our core responsibilitythat there are people
who can't afford to own a vehicle.
They still need transportation.
The seniors may need paratransitto get from point A
to point B, and can't affordrideshare to get where they want to go.
not all of it is age friendlyor for all abilities.
And so I want to make sureas we're going forward, we're fair
(33:18):
about how we present these options,but not forget about
a very vulnerable populationthat still, has limited
transportation optionsand that includes health care, schools,
goods and services,or access to parks and green spaces.
And so for me, I just want to make sureas we have this conversation,
we put all those things on the table.
(33:40):
I've seen scooters.
I'm not getting on one.
I'm training for runs and one accidentand I'm out for a couple of months.
But I see these young folksgleefully flying down the street.
some of our seniors get worriedbecause they're not always used
to looking off the curb,including bike lanes.
But I think that, yes, we have to do itall responsibly.
(34:02):
But let us rememberalso our core responsibility,
providing that mobility, accessto many people that may not take advantage
of the newer technologiesor the electrification, of mobility.
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you.
That's that's the empathetic approach.
I mentioned coastal resiliency.
(34:22):
You know,I think we're, all in coastal states.
and we see the concern that flooding and,
climate change are having, especially insome of the coastal communities.
What does an empathetic approach
look likefor planning and coastal communities?
(34:42):
Yeah.
(Mitchell Silver)Well, for one, first and foremost, we have to understand that
the change in climateis the threat of our generation, period.
We're now seeing moreand more climate refugees.
If you take North Carolina in particular,a lot of,
let's just say, less affluent residents,live in East Carolina,
where you see extreme flooding,not just here but all over the coast
(35:07):
and a lot of places,whether it's heirs property,
don't have proper home insurance,
don't have title to the home.
And so they're losing everything.
And so for me, it's a very,very serious matter.
Not only is it hurting our planet,but now is people's livelihood.
And when I talk about public health,safety and welfare,
(35:30):
climate change is on the top of that list.
And, you know, I as commissioner,you know, we looked at our parks
as the first line of defense againstclimate change, about how do we stop this
storm surge, how do we plant more trees,how do we absorb more storm water?
But there's no questionthis is a huge threat.
(35:52):
And it's somethingthat whether you're a planner, an
engineer, elected official,these storms are coming.
The climate is changing, and we're seeingmore and more people being impacted,
particularly thosethat are most vulnerable, do not have
the proper insuranceto rebuild or to move.
And so you'll see blue tarps on roofs.
And that's just how it is.
(36:12):
And they try to get by. To methat's a tragedy.
cause of everyone to meas a human right to have housing.
And so, it'ssomething top of mind that regardless
of what profession you're in,this is the threat we have to deal with.
But it's tragic when you're seeing peoplethat are living in harm's way, and
there are some that still are reluctantto believe that this is a threat.
(36:33):
It's a threat.
(Nicole Bennett)Mehri.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, that's that's a that's a very good point.
And I think like, it also required
providing education for community members.
Like they are examples for like here
and in the state that we are therewhere community members
may have a different perspectiveabout climate change.
(36:56):
so I believe that we need to come upwith a common language
and not try to kind of convince themto see through the lens
that we are seeing, and what about varietyfor one of our projects was that,
the, connectclimate change, to some other concepts
that were more tangibleand kind of more acceptable for them.
(37:16):
And it's one of the barriers that we face,you know, we want to
and it's a kind of long term processif you want to kind of,
decreasethe adverse impact of climate change.
We also need to, work with the communityAnd I think that we have in so many parts
of, in the, in the southeast,we have this issue.
There are so many community membersthat have a different perspective,
(37:38):
and they need to understand thatneck out and acknowledge it and start
to, talk to each other in a languagethat's understanding.
As for both of us,
(Nicole Bennett)I think
that's an interesting point you just made,because what I heard you saying was,
those of us who are equity champions
also need to have empathy for thosewho might not be or who might not
(38:03):
see things our way, or who might not beusing the same language that we're using.
It's it's easy for us to talk
about how they need more empathy.
But I think you just challenged us
to have empathy ourselves, too.
(38:23):
So I'll have to think about that.
The next time I hearsomeone say something, you know?
And my instinct is to say you're wrong.
No, no, no, how can you?
You try to put myself in their shoes.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, it's a different perspective.
And I actually, I, I learned it frommy lived experience as I'm a, I'm
(38:44):
a middle eastern immigrant and I camefrom a very different background.
And it took me years to understandthe language of the professional world.
Here is a completely different,environment here in the United States.
And I really, enjoyed and learned a lotfrom people who had empathy toward me,
you know, who understood the barriersthat I face from language,
(39:05):
from culture barriers that I face.
And I really think that is somethingthat as a professional, we need to have.
(Mitchell Silver)Yeah.
Nicole,I'm smiling because I was a planning
director of chief planningofficer in Raleigh, as you stated,
I came from New York and, you know,New York has one approach to planning.
When I came to the Southand I started hearing things like property
(39:26):
rights and overregulatingand I listened and guess what?
In some cases, some of those voiceswere absolutely right.
And so when we were able to redo our planand our code, I was very sensitive.
Are we going too far?
If zoning is about protectingpublic health, safety and welfare,
(39:48):
well, what does esthetics and designhave to do with it?
And so we had this whole conversationabout the Appearance Commission.
Is that truly about zoning, protectingpast the beginning of every zoning code
to protect the public health,safety and welfare.
Xyzzy well then where does appearancecome in exactly?
Where does that fit in to public health,safety and welfare?
(40:08):
So when I talk about empathy, it'snot just the underserved.
It's having a practice of listeningto voices that may not agree with you,
but you need to listen.
Climate change is one of those points.
I talk about extreme weather.
I talk about extreme heat.
I talk about fires.
I talk about all the known outcomes,
which is directed to climate change.
(40:30):
but not many peopleare opposed to planting more trees,
which has a huge benefit,or addressing flooding
and figuring out how to do a better wayof doing green infrastructure.
I agree with Mehri.
We need to frame it differently,but most folks aren't opposed to that.
If I'm going to commute,
it has a river, and occasionallyif there's a severe storm, it topped out.
(40:51):
people are trying to figure outwhat is a better way,
protecting people,knowing a flood may come again.
So you're right.
and, you know, Nicole,you make a great point.
Empathy goes both ways,
and we have to be able to listen
from someone else's point of viewrather than are all so we do have to check
some of those preconceived notionsat the door, because different people
(41:12):
have different orientations, differentpeople have different perspectives.
Diversity and if we truly, trulywant to be diversity, that means everyone.
(Nicole Bennett)Yes, I feel like I've
been issued my my challenge for today.
So this this has been impactful for me.
For me as well.
(41:32):
so we've covered a lot,empathy and equity and planning.
Looking ahead,
how do you think
empathy can be integratedinto our curricula
to ensure that planners, engineers,
(41:55):
designers are coming out of schoolknowing how to do this?
I mean, some people are just empathetic.
They're empaths by nature,but not all of us are.
So how do you think it can be builtinto our programs?
to help our future plannersand engineers and designers
(42:16):
and thought leaders.
(Mitchell Silver)To me,
you have to have a different conversationwith students.
I'll be teaching a coursevery soon at a nearby university,
and this is one of the conversationsthat I'll be having,
because you have to personalize it
to your experience with your family,your friends, and your community
(42:38):
so that it's out of the theoreticaland right down to the practical.
Very often I talk about repairingpast harm or restorative justice,
which has three components to acknowledge,to apologize, and to atone.
And eachone of those may take a different form.
If we're dealing with the builtenvironment, which is dealing with people,
(43:01):
we have to make surewe don't create any new harm,
but we have to understand what happenedin the first place so we don't repeat it.
You can't learn that in a book, per se.
You can hear about the stories,but you have to train some of the ability
to go into a communityto have real conversations.
So I'm hoping in the course of, teaching,that we will get into this whole notion
(43:23):
of how do we plan and design with empathyand how do we go about.
I'm thinkingmaybe this may be a nice class exercise.
how do we go about that?
So to understand, don'tgo into a neighborhood,
as mayor is saying and check a box.
Oh, we have to do engagement.
And as you were saying,we're here to inform,
that's not going to cut it,especially today.
(43:44):
So I don't know if that's partof the curriculum.
Mehri,I'm sure you're going to speak next.
But if it's not, is certainly should be.
(Mehri Mohebbi)Thank you.
So I, I think what Mitchell mentioned,is kind of related
to my personal experienceas a student at University of Cincinnati.
So we had a,
(44:05):
opportunityto work in a community design center.
And in that community design center,all the projects was designed
by the community,and it was exactly addressing an issue
that a community facein Cincinnati metropolitan area.
And for that, those projects, we wentto work with community members closely.
(44:25):
We went to the communities,we sat with them.
They went door to door talking to them.
And it was really a very,enriching experience for me as a students.
That is not only it's kind of provide mewith an opportunity to understand,
you know, a different perspectivewithin the community.
It also gave me an opportunity to see,you know, how addressing
(44:47):
those different perspectivecan change the final product
in a way that impact the community's lifein a positive way.
And it's kind ofit was a very and enriching process.
And I believe that it's the best wayto teach a student
about the empathy in the planning process.
(45:07):
(Mitchell Silver)Let me add, the course I'll
be teaching at either UMC, Universityof North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
I the course I teach is The Anatomyand Soul of a place,
and I taught this before at Harvard
and data tells a story
and I usually ask the students to do this
(45:27):
analysis between two census periods.
And I'll never forget one studentshows Oakland.
I remember with Oakland, one of the lines
they had was a black community in Oaklandbetween 2020 ten.
They lost like 80% of black residents.
And so they just went by as a data point.
I'm like, time out,
(45:48):
wait a minute, where did they go?
What happened?
What are the storiesAnd how do people feel that stayed?
Because now they were,I guess, in their community, a majority,
a neighborhood, and now they're minoritybeing gobbled up from people from Oakland.
Stop. That's a data point.
But there's a story like,what is it like living?
(46:09):
I've never in all the yearsgiving that class have seen
such a dramatic change in a ten yearperiod.
And I said, no, no, no, no, no.
You got to dig deeper.
I mean, what happened to the stores,the barbershops, the churches?
What happened to the people that moved?
What happened to this neighborhood?
What happened to its identity?
Just that one data point.
(46:29):
And and if you have empathy, it's like,I got to go there and find out
for those that left, how it feel,where do they go?
And then for those that state,how does it feel?
And to me, that's the story of
not just the data point of like,okay, city of Oakland lost population.
That to me was huge.
(Nicole Bennett)I was thinking, as both of you were talking, that
(46:49):
that the key might be to have more studiotype classes.
When I was in planning school,I don't recall any studio
type classes that we were studying books.
I mean, we had case studiesand we had people come in, but,
I don't recallgoing out into the community
(47:11):
and doing the type of workyou said you did, Mehri.
And I think that that would be
very enriching, as you said,because you're you're in the community.
You get to see it.
And to your point, Mitchell, I'd like to
tell my
colleagues,I think the value that I add to
some of the projects we work on is I'mnot the one collecting the data,
(47:34):
but once you put it in front of me, I'mthe one that says, so what?
So now what does this tell us?
So to your point about Oakland,we see the data.
You can write a nice summary paragraphabout them.
So what what does it mean.
There's a story behind that.So I like that.
I hope we see that in more of our planningschools and engineering schools,
(47:56):
because we're not just planningwith equity empathy.
We want to design with empathy as well.
(Mehri Mohebbi)That's a very good point.
I remember that my, advisor my PhD advisor
always said thatwhen you have data in front of you,
you should be like a childand ask several question.
And I didn't understand it at that time.
(48:18):
But then I became a mother five years ago.
I started understanding thatbecause my son started asking questions
about every single things,lots of questions.
(Nicole Bennett)Lots of questions. I remember those days.
So, as we prepare to wrap up what,and this has been a wonderful,
wonderful conversation.Thank you both so much.
What's one thinga listener, really, in any industry
(48:44):
could do today to elevate their empathy
for their community?
I mean, whether they're a planneror an accountant,
what could they do to elevatetheir empathy?
(Mitchell Silver)It's not about you.
And you have to remember in a planningprocess, it's about the people
(49:05):
that you're engaging and honorthat understand that it's a sacred,
sacred privilege to engage a community,
to be honest with them,to be straightforward with them.
They're taking their time, their hope,
their aspirations,and putting it in your hands.
(49:27):
For those that want to get engaged,because over time,
they'll be fewer and fewer and fewer,that to me is very important.
A second point is,
and I say this to my clients, thatif you're going to engage in the planning
process, please have some seedmoney or money at the end, the stream.
This is a contractual relationship.
Me and a community.
(49:47):
I'm giving you my time,my hope, my aspirations.
And what are you giving me back in return?
Please don't tell me your vision documentbecause that's not going to cut it.
We've been on that roadfor 20 or 30 years.
So to me, it's not about you,it's about the community.
If you start the process,I encourage you to speak to your client.
(50:08):
If you have public sector clients
or even private sector,to have something to show.
For me, spending my time for thata year, 18 months,
as a down payment,so that we actually can start building
a future together versusjust using me to get my input input.
(50:29):
And then at the end of the day,you just produce a paper
documentthat once again, will sit on the shelf.
I'd rather not start a projector hire another consultant,
but I just don't feel comfortabledoing that.
There must be a path forward.
So the community benefits from their sixmonth year, 18 months time of engagement.
That's the advice I would give.
(50:50):
(Nicole Bennett)Thank you. Mehri. How about you?
(Mehri Mohebbi)Yeah, I would just say a very, short sentence.
remember that you are also community
members, and it's the citythat you are living into.
(Nicole Bennett)that's a really great point.
That's we are the community as well.
So that's that's a good note to to end on.
(51:14):
Well, Mitchell and Mehri, it's been great.
speaking with you today about your work,your research and, your impact
in the planning community.
Thank you for being a voice for empathy,compassion and equity in our profession.
It's an exciting time to be a planner.
and thank you to our Viewpoints.
Listeners will be talking moreabout how companies are using
(51:36):
emerging technologiesto elevate equity, sustainability
and resiliency across the U.S in futureViewpoints episodes.
I hope you'll join us!
Listen in on Spotify, Apple, Googleor your favorite podcast platforms.
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