July 5, 2022 • 35 mins
In this episode, Laura interviews Sarah Milstein, VP of Engineering at Daily. They talk about how to position smaller companies to compete with the big corporations and be appealing even in a hot market.
Drink Pairing: Lambrusco
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
00:03.86
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are somehow both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein please be advised that this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. Ah, my guest today is Sarah Milstein she is the Vp of engineering at daily and um, daily is currently hiring I just like to throw that in for everybody who's listening um, they're hiring in marketing and sales and some and engineering so you might actually get to work for None of my very favorite people in the world. Sarah welcome Sarah thank you so much for joining me It's so good to talk to you? Um, let's talk today about you. You wrote a really interesting blog post that I read which is so often how our conversations start I think you say something smart in public and I'm like.
00:41.69
Sarah
Laura hi so good to be here.
01:55.22
lauraklein
Talk about that. Um, but you wrote about yeah, ah well you know well mutual fan society here but you wrote a great blog post about how smaller companies can compete with.
01:20.11
Sarah
I Think of it as the other way around by the way.
02:25.70
lauraklein
Ah, what we used to call fangs I think we're not I like I like this better. We're not calling mangas. Um, so you know with with your with your metas your your amazons your Netflix um, and I think this is something that a lot of us at companies that don't maybe have a brand I mean I've I've worked at startups for 8000000 years um if you don't have that brand or you don't have that budget right? How do we? How do we do it? How do we attract? all of these people who are being courted by everyone.
02:49.75
Sarah
Yeah, right? So it often feels hard particularly because the manga companies pay so much all the brand name tech companies really do and since pay is obviously a huge factor in candidates' decisions. It can feel like.
03:41.88
lauraklein
So like.
03:26.53
Sarah
We have no options but I have now worked for a number of organizations that were not in that sort of top tier of tech companies not particularly um, well-known and that didn't have huge budgets. In fact, sometimes very small. Um. Salaries relatively and we've always been able to hire and part of what I've learned from that is that pay isn't the only thing that people care about there are other things that are super important to candidates that you can stress. Um, so at like the very highest level. It's just important to know.
05:02.80
lauraklein
Yeah.
04:38.99
Sarah
Hey isn't the only thing and then we can talk about some of the things that do matter as well.
05:23.74
lauraklein
Well and and it's not and I I don't want to be very clear like I agree with that None having taken jobs for much less than I could get other places pay does matter and I always like I always like to say sometimes saying pay isn't the only thing can turn into you should work come and work for me for free for really hard. Because of our mission and yeah, no like also pay is important and that's that's fine. That's great and for some people it's more important than others. Even no.
(00:32):
05:38.47
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, right, totally no I think it's a great call I mean one? Yeah, the the point here isn't to be exploitative and 2 like some people are optimizing for pay a huge number of people. Maybe even like the biggest percentage of people are going to optimize for pay.
06:32.94
lauraklein
Um, writing.
06:17.50
Sarah
So those might not be people who are your like target candidates.
07:03.60
lauraklein
Exactly Yeah I optimize for the fact that um I'm basically a chaos agent and get very bored easily so that um that sometimes leads me in different directions than the place that will pay me the most. So ah.
06:36.57
Sarah
Um.
06:55.65
Sarah
Exactly that? Yeah, you've nailed it.
07:41.86
lauraklein
I Bet you have better. You have better ways of doing that than just finding somebody who's like well I can't hack it in big companies because lots of people can and they choose not to.
07:22.35
Sarah
Yeah, Well no I mean actually the reason they said I like you've kind of nailed it in a way is that lots of people know that they don't want to work in particular kinds of environments. They might ah like they have had the experience of working at a big company or can see what that would be like. And it's not appealing or they don't want to be associated with a brand that is kind of bigger than they are or they like to be able to um to be a chaos agent of a certain guy to have a certain role in a company that doesn't really exist or play Well in. Um, particular environments so that I think is actually super relevant.
09:12.78
lauraklein
Yeah, it's well it's interesting. You know you you said they don't want to be involved with a brand that's bigger than they are I would say that there's also the issue that sometimes they don't want to be involved with a particular brand I know that that has also been somewhat limiting for me in my career when I'm like yep, no, it wouldn't work for them. Ah.
08:56.99
Sarah
It would. A hundred percent yeah Yeah right and I think that list of companies is probably getting bigger every day. But.
09:55.74
lauraklein
Yeah, sure is anyway. Um, what I think everybody honestly should have that list of companies like maybe it's one. Maybe it's literally one company and I don't really care what it is for I mean I care deeply what it is for folks then I would like it to all be the same ones but it isn't That's Fine. Um, but yeah I think that there's you should. Know what you're willing to do for that amount of money and you know that's that that is a big part of it.
(00:54):
10:12.90
Sarah
Yeah, right? So like 1 of the things that often draws people is mission and we don't want if you say no one to exploit people because they're just like cool I love this mission I'll you know I'll pay you to work for you but well so companies might have missions that you don't believe in.
11:06.40
lauraklein
Right.
10:51.97
Sarah
But they might pursue them in ways that you think are and like they're not good citizens in the world and that's important to know as ah as a person seeking a job and also as a hiring manager you should be clear about what are the values of your company So you're attracting the people who are going to um, resonate with you.
12:01.00
lauraklein
Yeah that's that's very true, um, being clear and honest about those things and also I think about the not just like you say the mission but how you go about achieving that mission. Is important I don't really want somebody who's going to come in in six months from now go this isn't this isn't right? This isn't what I was promised. This isn't what I you know I've I've talked to some other folks on the the podcast about just like actually paying off those promises that you make during during iring. Um, it's interesting. Interesting though to sort of think about what promises are you making to people when you're hiring and what differences that make when hiring them.
12:47.71
Sarah
Um, yeah, right? That's it's so important like I think interestingly the hiring conversations that I have that go the best are the ones where I'm able to be really honest with people about what I think is going well at the company and the kind of environment and that we have and the way we're pursuing and what I. It's not going great and that kind of honesty is something people usually really appreciate and is a good reflection of me as a leader. So if they're coming to work for Me. That's something that that might resonate with them. But Also it's a chance to. Like peel back the curtain a little bit and say this is really what you might be signing up for so there'll be some good things. But it's a company so there'll be some bad things like it's a group of humans. There are some problems and you know people who especially folks who are more experienced will have seen some of those movies before and will.
14:43.98
lauraklein
A.
14:34.77
Sarah
Know what? they're comfortable signing up for what kinds of problems they can accept or work with or change and what kinds of things they would find intolerable.
15:25.28
lauraklein
A million years ago when when I dated. Um so the 90 s um yeah we we I came up with this concept of compatible flaws and what you're actually looking for in people is compatible flaws. So what's a deal breaker for you might be something that I find to be a pleasant quirk.
14:52.79
Sarah
Um, was a minute.
15:23.33
Sarah
Um, yes.
16:04.92
lauraklein
Um, at least that's that's literally the only way I ever got any dates. Um, but yeah, it worked worked out worked out great. Not not complaining at all I'm just saying like you got like what if you are open and honest about the thing that.
(01:16):
15:37.37
Sarah
That worked out for you though. So I think it's a good thing. Um.
16:42.78
lauraklein
You might think is not great or somebody else might think is not great. Maybe someone is like oh no, that's um, that's that's a compatible flaw like I I don't mind environments like that or or I know how to work in those or I know how to change them. Ah.
16:17.30
Sarah
Um, and. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally and I think when you can be honest about that stuff. People can see like you're realistic about what work is going to be like there's always tradeoffs. There's no perfect place for anybody and so you know when people. Find jobs that they like or can tolerate or love whatever the spectrum is for you. It's always with something that you wish were different so being able to tell people that as part of the hiring process is often actually a big win.
18:07.88
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, that's that is huge what else? What else? do you do so tell me a little bit about sort of like the the just the general principles of you know, competing with these folks who can outspend you sometimes by quite a bit. Yeah.
17:57.49
Sarah
Yeah, so um, one thing is we can talk about a few things but None thing is starting with comp. It is really good to have a comp strategy. What is it that your company how does your company approach comp. Um, and to be public about that if you can be so that you are um, filtering out people who are already like you know what? that's not ah, either like a salary range that's going to work for me or it's not a way that they handle promotions or leveling or whatever it might be like filter out those people. And if you can talk about what your strategy is and why and your values are reflected in that then you'll also draw people who are compatible with your values and I've said that a couple times you kind of like the idea of values fit I think is important. We think about culture ad you want somebody who's adding to your culture and expanding it. But usually you want people who are a values fit and when you can express that through your um through your comp which is always a reflection of values at some level and you can talk about even as a company. What some of the benefits and tradeoffs are of the path you've chosen that can go a long way toward.
20:23.80
lauraklein
Ah, her.
20:23.30
Sarah
Helping you helping the right people find you.
21:01.46
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and it's interesting when you talk about sort of the right people. Sometimes it's it's the right people at the right time in their career too.
20:46.29
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, totally right? Like a very interesting thing is that people may have just come from a big company and are looking for a big change. They want to be in a smaller company. Or they want to have kind of a portfolio of um places where they've taken risk so they've got some like equity in a bunch of different companies. There's a lot of ways that people think about where they are in their career. It's not always just a linear like well I went from smaller to bigger or.
22:34.00
lauraklein
Yeah, it's ah it's yeah it is interesting I sometimes I'll look at resumes and it really will be like somebody has just bounced around. You know you know few years at at you know Meta A Few Years that Amazon if you felt they will just have sort of hit all the big ones other times it's sort I would.
21:56.35
Sarah
Lower pay to higher pay.
(01:38):
23:12.46
lauraklein
Sort of where interesting like people go places where they can learn a new thing or they feel like they could maybe you know expand in a particular area you you do very different jobs at the different kinds of companies and. That matters a lot sometimes to get kind of a mix for so again for some people some people so and no no shade like no I am not complaining about these folks at all if what matters to you is the number of Zeros on your paycheck that is fine like you go.
23:36.29
Sarah
Yeah, you right? right.
24:22.32
lauraklein
Ah, knock yourself knock yourself out like that's that's fantastic. Um, it's good to know what you like but there are also other things that lots of other people do take into consideration. Um I'm sort of curious. What all the what? All of them are so that but.
24:08.21
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, um, you you touched on one in there which is sometimes people really are looking for the opportunity to grow. That's often the case and sometimes you get that in big companies. But. Typically in big Companies. You have narrow and narrower Roles. You can often move around. So if you want to grow by changing jobs within a company bigger companies are better for that. But in smaller companies you get more responsibility and often more authority and like lower politics. So There's other more technical or product kinds of. Problem solving that you can do and for a lot of people. That's a huge draw um almost everybody wants to learn and grow I don't want to suggest that people who are pursuing big companies don't but there's different modes for that. Yeah,, there's different modes and that's I think.
26:19.12
lauraklein
No, no, no yeah, you're learning different stuff. Yeah.
25:53.89
Sarah
Definitely definitely and sometimes at a different rate and that I think is something that smaller companies. That's one of the things that can be a real advantage if you're able to talk about that genuinely.
26:52.26
lauraklein
Yeah, it's it's fascinating. Um I you know I hire mostly designers instead of engineers. But it's always interesting because if you're talking to somebody who's been. You know, mostly agencies or mostly in a house at large companies or mostly startups. Um, they can have just.
26:39.87
Sarah
You.
27:30.28
lauraklein
Wildly different approaches to sort of even the whole concept of design and I often really enjoy working with folks who've got a range of those who've done a you know 2 or 3 of those or even worked in some other area. You know like you know I'm I'm biased toward x engineers.
27:29.11
Sarah
Ah.
28:08.44
lauraklein
Um, recovering engineers as it were um, you know because I think that they bring a really interesting perspective to it. Um, but it I think startups kind of or smaller companies often Will let you do that. Right? They're not looking. You know they're looking for somebody who maybe has the ability to do many things.
(02:00):
28:06.19
Sarah
Yeah, right? Typically they need people who are a little more polymathic can do more stuff can fill more roles and can be flexible as the company grows and changes. You know they look for people who can grow and change with the company.
29:11.60
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, what? What specifically has worked for you and and maybe what what hasn't worked for you and in attracting folks.
28:49.90
Sarah
Yeah, well I think we've talked about 2 of the the main things is having a salary strategy like a comp strategy that is public that is like well thought through um, being able to talk genuinely about what.
29:41.40
lauraklein
O.
29:25.11
Sarah
What the opportunities are to grow or learn within any organization and with what some of the downsides are of the organization and then we also haven't talked about this but people tend to care a lot about culture and being able to be pretty explicit with examples of what some of the strengths and weaknesses. Of a culture that's been that has been successful for me as well. So those sort of 3 things is how I think about it. Um, yeah.
30:54.14
lauraklein
Know what? what are the kinds of cultural because like that culture I think at a company can feel so weird because it can be anything from you know what? I've heard about Amazon and I've never worked there so correct me if I'm on but a lot of lot of teams on Amazon very competitive, very driven people crying at their desks I don't.
30:40.70
Sarah
This is.
30:53.37
Sarah
You know, right? my.
31:33.92
lauraklein
If that's true. That's but those are the stories that you hear and so you know if I if you're not the kind of person who wants to cry at their desk I mean maybe someplace a little kinder you know like that's and that the culture thing but there's lots of things that fit under that that culture banner I think.
31:10.77
Sarah
Um, yeah rape.
31:27.37
Sarah
Um, yeah, so sorry I'm gonna pause for a second. There has been so many sirens is that coming through and do we need to pause when that happens.
(02:22):
32:26.86
lauraklein
It's fine I'm I'm just gonna tell everybody on the podcast that you're running from the law and that you're owning this in from a I mean sar sorry folks Sarah is actually currently in a police chase and she's on the lamb. So yeah, it's it's fine shut.
31:54.61
Sarah
There you go perfect. But I'm on the lamb. Yeah.
32:58.18
lauraklein
By the time this releases I'm sure it'll it'll have all worked out.
32:24.39
Sarah
Know I'll be in Canada it'll be fine. Um, Norway um, okay, yeah, sorry about this New York um yeah so so what is culture or how do we use it in hiring people. I think certainly a lot of it is how do people treat each other and what do we do to reinforce that and I think that it's None thing to say we have a kind culture and another thing to be able to say here are some of the structural things that we've done that support the culture that we want and. That for me being able to be intentional and saying either here's what we have done as a company here's what I do on my team. Um, that makes a big difference. So for example at daily where I am now we've tried a couple of these things when I none joined. Um. There were 25 engineers in the company and and 25 ics and no teams yet and I did ah a little bit of a listening tour and asked as we grow and as we start to form teams. What do you most want to stay the same and what do you most want to change and without any prompt at all one ah hundred percent of people said they wanted us to maintain our culture of kindness and I think people had had to be very kind and helpful to each other because everyone was their own. It was like a bus factor of a half for everything and and people really needed to support each other to get anything done. Um, and there's a real risk as we go into teams that we could start to lose some of that so when we were. Redoing our comp strategy the beginning of the year part of what we thought about is not putting in place a ah promotion system that rewards people for their individual work. Um, and instead. In fact, the way we have set up promotions is that it's purely um, based on time you. You come in. We love with you based on years of relevant experience when you join and you get more relevant experience at daily and grow into the next level by doing more work with us. But None of the things one of the effects that we hope to have in that is that it doesn't provide an incentive for people to stop helping each other. But we you're not your career trajectory at daily isn't based on star behavior or things that leave other people behind kind of have to work we all have to work together
37:51.94
lauraklein
That is very interesting. That's it's It's almost more like a union in that case that with the I'm I'm guessing that was perhaps intentional I don't know maybe it's but it is ah it it definitely selects for certain kinds of folks.
37:25.90
Sarah
Yeah, that's interesting.
38:26.86
lauraklein
Which is interesting.
37:49.23
Sarah
Yeah, right? And so we've we've written about it publicly and almost everybody who interviews with us mentions it and it does It's It's actually fantastic because it filters out people who would find this to be a completely unappealing structure and lots of people do legitimately. Feel like if they do outstanding work. They want to be rewarded for that quickly with pay and promotion and that's not how we're structured but lots of people see it and are like Wow Great I Don't have to worry about this I'm not going to be arbitrarily pitted against my colleagues or arbitrarily assessed in things I can just. Get paid reasonably and do my work and serve our customers and that's super appealing. So It's a good.. It's a good example. Both of sort of a comp strategy and also how we think about that fitting into our larger cultural values.
40:02.98
lauraklein
It is it is interesting it. It may also um, select for people with more experience. Ah which again and we have I've had this conversation so many times with with other design leaders specifically but also engineering leaders that like years of experience.
39:37.21
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent it does it no question.
40:38.94
lauraklein
Doesn't necessarily translate exactly to how good you are, but also I mean somebody with 10 years of experience is very different than somebody with 1 year of experience like they unless unless something. Ah, very strange happened in those 10 years. But.
(02:44):
40:36.83
Sarah
Ah, yeah, yeah.
41:19.88
lauraklein
Yeah, like like it is it is different so but it it is interesting because then you get to just manage based on improving their ability to do the things that they do but without worrying about competition and pitting people against each other or. People taking credit for other people's work. There's no incentive there for that which is ah very Interesting. It's a interestinging approach. Yeah, and yeah.
41:21.75
Sarah
Right? Exactly exactly? Yeah and I think you've hit on 2 important aspects of it. It does filter for more experienced people which was intentional on our part at this stage in our growth later on when we have more structure to support.
42:23.96
lauraklein
State of like.
41:58.13
Sarah
People who are earlier in their careers. We may rethink this a little bit but right now we're actually trying to hire more senior people. So it's a fit for us that way. Um, and I forget the other thing I was going to say so never mind I had the 1 thing time. Oh it's huge.
42:59.78
lauraklein
Ah, well then I think the not competing with each other is interesting I do I do see sometimes um in not not where I currently am but I have heard horror stories about comp and ah managing or promotion panels that.
42:34.65
Sarah
Yeah.
43:39.50
lauraklein
Pit people against one another I remember ah eight million years ago I worked at a ah place. Um, that did the ah the the workplace like they would just fire the lowest earning 10 or the the lowest performing 10% which just caused people to like.
43:22.69
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
44:14.82
lauraklein
Claw at each other. Even the people at the top right weren't didn't nobody felt safe ever and that's the opposite.
43:37.99
Sarah
But yeah, yeah, right? That's part of what we were trying to to avoid and also the amount of time that managers have to spend like creating promotion packets and arguing with each other and. Trying to Jackie for the like limited number of promotions but it's all time that you could be spending on customer facingcing work and at our stage we don't have time for anything but customer facing work. There may be a future when we want to have claw at each other about this stuff but that's not where we are now. Um. And it may be that we are you know, never there. But it's a really nice break from having to spend any time on the stuff that tends to undermine the relationships in the company in the none place. Um I did remember the other thing I was going to say about age which is I think people often. Um.
(03:06):
45:53.38
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
45:35.91
Sarah
Ah, sort of make the mistake of thinking that because we are more likely to attract more senior people we're more likely to make the mistake of hiring somebody who's senior but not very good over somebody who's Junior and great. But we don't base our hiring decisions on how. Much Experience. Somebody has maybe us are leveling decisions on that we have a whole different rubric for how we assess people.
47:08.78
lauraklein
That's interesting. Yeah now that's a great point and this brings up something because I was about to ask you the question. What is the hardest thing about hiring and I think this I think this relates to what you're about to say ah I um I have I have a little insight into this. Ah.
46:46.10
Sarah
Um, yeah, yeah I think the hardest thing about hiring and also this is sort of the hardest thing about getting hired in some ways is figuring out if somebody's a good fit for the role that you have open. You know, like notoriously and like deep research backs that interviewing is broken in all ways that it does is not a good predictor almost all the facets of interviewing talking to people in questions and all the kinds of questions and take-homes and whiteboarding and all of it is almost all a bad predictor of whether somebody is going to be. Good for the job and sometimes it's a bad predictor in that you screen out people who would be good and sometimes it's a bad predictor in that you hire people who are bad. Both things happen but actually being able to assess people is quite difficult.
49:07.40
lauraklein
I was going to say So yeah I was going to say sometimes it's sometimes as difficult just in that it causes tremendous trauma to everybody involved. Ah.
48:33.13
Sarah
And it's hard on the other side to be assessed like accurately. Yeah.
48:47.30
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent totally I mean there is a part of me that's like well if we did it by lottery even now I actually I say that and I really have felt good about many hires I've made over the years that have turned out beautifully of course so and lottery would not have necessarily gotten. Those colleagues? Um, but it is true that there can be a real cost to a very imperfect process.
50:15.56
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, and that that it that is 100% true and it is interesting because like that I'm glad that you said that you know we don't just hire people because they've got you know ten or twenty years of experience or whatever because I mean sometimes we're the worst um, especially for any particular role.
50:06.49
Sarah
I guess.
50:53.84
lauraklein
Um, but ah I I know that on some of these podcasts I'm going to get into the like how to actually assess people and um for some here's the weirdest thing for me engineers and designers I think are both we we actually have and I've I've. Of course done both roles right? Um, not as well. One of them not as well as the other ah just saying um I've done both roles and I will say it is We are asked to present so much more evidence.
51:04.95
Sarah
But.
(03:28):
52:09.48
lauraklein
Of what we've done. Then for example I don't know product or um, you know, even maybe even sometimes marketing like you know it's We're often asked. You do we've got portfolio reviews. We've got whiteboard tests Sometimes we have take home tests Sometimes you know like there's the coding interview like.
51:38.70
Sarah
Yeah.
52:46.62
lauraklein
There's you know, looking at your your open source projects on engineer you know for engineers. There's like all this extra stuff and it's still almost impossible to tell if somebody's going to actually be able to do the work when they get in I don't it's.
52:36.37
Sarah
Yeah, so hard. It's interesting like 1 of the things that we do at daily is we have a paid take home for all of our roles and we'll develop a new take home for new roles. But it takes a minute to calibrate the the take homes and.
53:29.46
lauraklein
Is.
53:15.63
Sarah
So we we pay the None people who do it a little more and they can give us feedback and we assume it's going to be a little rocky but sometimes in that early the early stages of ah, a new take home will have somebody who we can't tell we don't get very good signal from it. We can't tell if it's because our take home isn't good yet or because actually they're not a good fit.
54:27.94
lauraklein
Right.
53:54.51
Sarah
And it takes a while to get to a place where the take home might actually give good signal and then we're sort of that then there's a real quandary in what to do in those situations.
54:47.12
lauraklein
It's tricky too especially on the I don't know about on the engineering side as much but on the design side. It's very hard because a lot of times those design take homeme tests are very much designed I mean they sort of have to be like it's go do this thing in like 8 hours or I mean if you're paying it. You could be a little bit longer but you know people have jobs and stuff. Yeah.
54:37.10
Sarah
The.
55:22.70
lauraklein
Like go go design this whole thing in 8 hours and it's like well that's not actually how we design things so I will personally not learn anything from seeing how somebody designed something in 8 hours um which is tricky because otherwise you know you've got people who.
(03:50):
54:54.53
Sarah
Um, yeah.
55:59.96
lauraklein
Like I I like portfolio reviews a lot so that to see if they can speak to their portfolio. But then every every once in a while you get somebody who's just real good at talking and maybe not so good at actually the doing of the work you know, but.
55:35.70
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, exactly right right? I mean similarly take homes you can get someone who's good at the take home but is not particularly good in the form of engineering that we do in the longer over Time. Or is not a great teammate but they interview Beautifully. You know there's lots of ways it can go on.
56:52.34
lauraklein
Yeah, it's that's awful. Do you? Ah do you have any any anything weird ever Happen Any great stories any any bizarre situations as a candidate or or as a a a hiring manager I was like I was like hearing if somebody has had something really strange happen I.
56:50.97
Sarah
Ah, yeah, right? I mean I did once interview at Unnamed Big Co that
57:31.80
lauraklein
Like everybody who's ever interviewed me has had something strange happen I'll just say that.
57:23.55
Sarah
Flew me to their headquarters for like a day of interviews and it was supposed to start with the Vp of the department at the time. And I knew things were a little off the rails when he seemed to have forgotten that I was going to be there. Um and showed up a little bit showed up like super late and and and like admitted to not knowing I was moving there but it it went. Worse from there in all ways like there was there were a bunch of case interviews that they had given me the wrong information for and half of it was over video even though I was in the office with somebody who the video kept cutting out the whole thing was just terrible and I got I left being like well I definitely didn't get the job and I'm not sure I would want to work there. And then a couple of weeks later I learned that the guy who was the hiring manager had been fired from the whole company for harassment reasons and the whole department was in chaos and I was like oh right that tracks. Um.
01:00:11.86
lauraklein
Um, it's weird because I will say this having having occasionally been an organization. Maybe that? Um, where our our hiring process is not Perfect. It's not always the smoothest I Always like to say I always sort of like to say you know I. Especially like right now you know I apologize for you know your experience with the recruiters. They're very tired. They're trying their best. It's It's kind of chaos. Um, please don't let that reflect on the actual team. Um, and then there's that story where oh no, that.
01:00:41.73
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:26.14
lauraklein
That's just that was ah all those red flags weighing yeah wasn't enough should have been a Madtadors cape.
01:00:56.59
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent yeah right there just aren't enough red flags in the world for that situation. Um, but I I do have a little bit of ah, a story on the other side that's it's a really good one and I think illuminates something important which is.
(04:12):
01:01:46.62
lauraklein
Ah, you know that is a storm warning.
01:01:31.81
Sarah
Even though we can't get good signal from the average interview. We can put a lot of effort into making sure the candidates have a good experience like that's probably the most important thing we can do for many reasons if we want them to join. We want them to have a good experience even if we don't.
01:02:23.12
lauraklein
And then.
01:02:03.53
Sarah
Make them an offer. We want them to leave and tell their friends. This seemed like a good Place. We may want to connect with them down the road.. There are many many reasons why we really want candidates to have a good experience and that happens in all these different ways. Um, and I have a kind of a funny story about that. Um, at a previous company when I was interviewing in. Person in their offices I had come with a disposable coffee but in a metal with a metal straw that I had brought and at one point I left the coffee in the interview room when I went to use the bathroom when I came back. It was gone. The whole thing was gone and um I asked if anyone had seen what had happened to my coffee. And it had just been thrown away like somebody had come to clean the room and I was like oh that's too bad and during that segment of interviews. The recruiter went out and bought me a package of metal straws and yeah and I will never forget her and I hope I get a chance to work with her again and I wound up taking the job but it wasn't because of the metal straws.
01:04:22.36
lauraklein
That's a sweet.
01:04:01.49
Sarah
But it really told me something about how the company thought about candidates and the experience that they wanted us to have and that she was sort of like empowered to do that and got right on it and it became a little bit of a joke rather than like oh we're so sorry that sucks.
01:05:07.36
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, edge to it well too. But too bad for you and your metal straws. Um, it is It is interesting I I think that matters a ton. Especially you know, getting back to the original topic of just the the small companies or the the companies that can't pay as much.
01:04:37.23
Sarah
Yeah, so.
01:05:42.10
lauraklein
Just making people feel respected and or I don't even once they feel respected making sure that people understand that they are respected and that um they will continue to be respected at work and that that means that you're not going to leave them hanging for three months or whatever during the process or you're not going to just drop them or ghost them or you're. Gonna you know, follow up promptly and get them an offer and that their time has value like those things matter like if they've been waiting on a manga for six weeks because they couldn't bother to get around to giving you an offer and you come in with a good offer even though they know they might get.
01:06:02.35
Sarah
Yeah.
01:06:58.92
lauraklein
Twice as much someplace else lot of people kind of go. You know what? this place is great. This is enough. This is what I want. Yeah.
(04:34):
01:06:31.25
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, that's so true and I think you know often we have to move quickly because we're in a competitive situation but it does really reflect how we think about Candidates I say that with like a little bit of hesitation because I have in my inbox. To people that I have not followed up with in a timely manner for reasons, but it's on me not on them and it feels bad. But for the most part I think that is hugely important being being good communicators ourselves being on getting ahead of telling people. What's happening being responsive when they send. Thank you notes And. Um, making sure that we're staying connected to them so they don't wonder what's happening because it's so hard to be on the other side of it.
01:08:35.84
lauraklein
So yeah, it really is and I I will say this I'm I'm sure that they they're in your inbox I'm sure that you feel like you haven't I mean I can just tell you some of the stories that I've heard from people I guarantee you it's not the level of miscommunication that I have seen at ah.
01:08:32.61
Sarah
Um, one.
01:09:11.60
lauraklein
Ah, you you have not those those emails have not been in your inbox for as long as they have been in some of the recruiters I've talked to just going to throw out that out there anyway. Um that is all the time that we have for today. Um I just want to thank Sarah Melstein ah for joining us I also want to thank.
01:08:42.37
Sarah
That.
01:08:53.47
Sarah
Fair of her.
01:09:48.66
lauraklein
All of you out there listening and I want to wish you all the best of luck with your own search whether it's for a new job or a new employee I am rooting for you.
00:03.86
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are somehow both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein please be advised that this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. Ah, my guest today is Sarah Milstein she is the Vp of engineering at daily and um, daily is currently hiring I just like to throw that in for everybody who's listening um, they're hiring in marketing and sales and some and engineering so you might actually get to work for None of my very favorite people in the world. Sarah welcome Sarah thank you so much for joining me It's so good to talk to you? Um, let's talk today about you. You wrote a really interesting blog post that I read which is so often how our conversations start I think you say something smart in public and I'm like.
00:41.69
Sarah
Laura hi so good to be here.
01:55.22
lauraklein
Talk about that. Um, but you wrote about yeah, ah well you know well mutual fan society here but you wrote a great blog post about how smaller companies can compete with.
01:20.11
Sarah
I Think of it as the other way around by the way.
02:25.70
lauraklein
Ah, what we used to call fangs I think we're not I like I like this better. We're not calling mangas. Um, so you know with with your with your metas your your amazons your Netflix um, and I think this is something that a lot of us at companies that don't maybe have a brand I mean I've I've worked at startups for 8000000 years um if you don't have that brand or you don't have that budget right? How do we? How do we do it? How do we attract? all of these people who are being courted by everyone.
02:49.75
Sarah
Yeah, right? So it often feels hard particularly because the manga companies pay so much all the brand name tech companies really do and since pay is obviously a huge factor in candidates' decisions. It can feel like.
03:41.88
lauraklein
So like.
03:26.53
Sarah
We have no options but I have now worked for a number of organizations that were not in that sort of top tier of tech companies not particularly um, well-known and that didn't have huge budgets. In fact, sometimes very small. Um. Salaries relatively and we've always been able to hire and part of what I've learned from that is that pay isn't the only thing that people care about there are other things that are super important to candidates that you can stress. Um, so at like the very highest level. It's just important to know.
05:02.80
lauraklein
Yeah.
04:38.99
Sarah
Hey isn't the only thing and then we can talk about some of the things that do matter as well.
05:23.74
lauraklein
Well and and it's not and I I don't want to be very clear like I agree with that None having taken jobs for much less than I could get other places pay does matter and I always like I always like to say sometimes saying pay isn't the only thing can turn into you should work come and work for me for free for really hard. Because of our mission and yeah, no like also pay is important and that's that's fine. That's great and for some people it's more important than others. Even no.
(00:32):
05:38.47
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, right, totally no I think it's a great call I mean one? Yeah, the the point here isn't to be exploitative and 2 like some people are optimizing for pay a huge number of people. Maybe even like the biggest percentage of people are going to optimize for pay.
06:32.94
lauraklein
Um, writing.
06:17.50
Sarah
So those might not be people who are your like target candidates.
07:03.60
lauraklein
Exactly Yeah I optimize for the fact that um I'm basically a chaos agent and get very bored easily so that um that sometimes leads me in different directions than the place that will pay me the most. So ah.
06:36.57
Sarah
Um.
06:55.65
Sarah
Exactly that? Yeah, you've nailed it.
07:41.86
lauraklein
I Bet you have better. You have better ways of doing that than just finding somebody who's like well I can't hack it in big companies because lots of people can and they choose not to.
07:22.35
Sarah
Yeah, Well no I mean actually the reason they said I like you've kind of nailed it in a way is that lots of people know that they don't want to work in particular kinds of environments. They might ah like they have had the experience of working at a big company or can see what that would be like. And it's not appealing or they don't want to be associated with a brand that is kind of bigger than they are or they like to be able to um to be a chaos agent of a certain guy to have a certain role in a company that doesn't really exist or play Well in. Um, particular environments so that I think is actually super relevant.
09:12.78
lauraklein
Yeah, it's well it's interesting. You know you you said they don't want to be involved with a brand that's bigger than they are I would say that there's also the issue that sometimes they don't want to be involved with a particular brand I know that that has also been somewhat limiting for me in my career when I'm like yep, no, it wouldn't work for them. Ah.
08:56.99
Sarah
It would. A hundred percent yeah Yeah right and I think that list of companies is probably getting bigger every day. But.
09:55.74
lauraklein
Yeah, sure is anyway. Um, what I think everybody honestly should have that list of companies like maybe it's one. Maybe it's literally one company and I don't really care what it is for I mean I care deeply what it is for folks then I would like it to all be the same ones but it isn't That's Fine. Um, but yeah I think that there's you should. Know what you're willing to do for that amount of money and you know that's that that is a big part of it.
(00:54):
10:12.90
Sarah
Yeah, right? So like 1 of the things that often draws people is mission and we don't want if you say no one to exploit people because they're just like cool I love this mission I'll you know I'll pay you to work for you but well so companies might have missions that you don't believe in.
11:06.40
lauraklein
Right.
10:51.97
Sarah
But they might pursue them in ways that you think are and like they're not good citizens in the world and that's important to know as ah as a person seeking a job and also as a hiring manager you should be clear about what are the values of your company So you're attracting the people who are going to um, resonate with you.
12:01.00
lauraklein
Yeah that's that's very true, um, being clear and honest about those things and also I think about the not just like you say the mission but how you go about achieving that mission. Is important I don't really want somebody who's going to come in in six months from now go this isn't this isn't right? This isn't what I was promised. This isn't what I you know I've I've talked to some other folks on the the podcast about just like actually paying off those promises that you make during during iring. Um, it's interesting. Interesting though to sort of think about what promises are you making to people when you're hiring and what differences that make when hiring them.
12:47.71
Sarah
Um, yeah, right? That's it's so important like I think interestingly the hiring conversations that I have that go the best are the ones where I'm able to be really honest with people about what I think is going well at the company and the kind of environment and that we have and the way we're pursuing and what I. It's not going great and that kind of honesty is something people usually really appreciate and is a good reflection of me as a leader. So if they're coming to work for Me. That's something that that might resonate with them. But Also it's a chance to. Like peel back the curtain a little bit and say this is really what you might be signing up for so there'll be some good things. But it's a company so there'll be some bad things like it's a group of humans. There are some problems and you know people who especially folks who are more experienced will have seen some of those movies before and will.
14:43.98
lauraklein
A.
14:34.77
Sarah
Know what? they're comfortable signing up for what kinds of problems they can accept or work with or change and what kinds of things they would find intolerable.
15:25.28
lauraklein
A million years ago when when I dated. Um so the 90 s um yeah we we I came up with this concept of compatible flaws and what you're actually looking for in people is compatible flaws. So what's a deal breaker for you might be something that I find to be a pleasant quirk.
14:52.79
Sarah
Um, was a minute.
15:23.33
Sarah
Um, yes.
16:04.92
lauraklein
Um, at least that's that's literally the only way I ever got any dates. Um, but yeah, it worked worked out worked out great. Not not complaining at all I'm just saying like you got like what if you are open and honest about the thing that.
(01:16):
15:37.37
Sarah
That worked out for you though. So I think it's a good thing. Um.
16:42.78
lauraklein
You might think is not great or somebody else might think is not great. Maybe someone is like oh no, that's um, that's that's a compatible flaw like I I don't mind environments like that or or I know how to work in those or I know how to change them. Ah.
16:17.30
Sarah
Um, and. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally and I think when you can be honest about that stuff. People can see like you're realistic about what work is going to be like there's always tradeoffs. There's no perfect place for anybody and so you know when people. Find jobs that they like or can tolerate or love whatever the spectrum is for you. It's always with something that you wish were different so being able to tell people that as part of the hiring process is often actually a big win.
18:07.88
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, that's that is huge what else? What else? do you do so tell me a little bit about sort of like the the just the general principles of you know, competing with these folks who can outspend you sometimes by quite a bit. Yeah.
17:57.49
Sarah
Yeah, so um, one thing is we can talk about a few things but None thing is starting with comp. It is really good to have a comp strategy. What is it that your company how does your company approach comp. Um, and to be public about that if you can be so that you are um, filtering out people who are already like you know what? that's not ah, either like a salary range that's going to work for me or it's not a way that they handle promotions or leveling or whatever it might be like filter out those people. And if you can talk about what your strategy is and why and your values are reflected in that then you'll also draw people who are compatible with your values and I've said that a couple times you kind of like the idea of values fit I think is important. We think about culture ad you want somebody who's adding to your culture and expanding it. But usually you want people who are a values fit and when you can express that through your um through your comp which is always a reflection of values at some level and you can talk about even as a company. What some of the benefits and tradeoffs are of the path you've chosen that can go a long way toward.
20:23.80
lauraklein
Ah, her.
20:23.30
Sarah
Helping you helping the right people find you.
21:01.46
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and it's interesting when you talk about sort of the right people. Sometimes it's it's the right people at the right time in their career too.
20:46.29
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, totally right? Like a very interesting thing is that people may have just come from a big company and are looking for a big change. They want to be in a smaller company. Or they want to have kind of a portfolio of um places where they've taken risk so they've got some like equity in a bunch of different companies. There's a lot of ways that people think about where they are in their career. It's not always just a linear like well I went from smaller to bigger or.
22:34.00
lauraklein
Yeah, it's ah it's yeah it is interesting I sometimes I'll look at resumes and it really will be like somebody has just bounced around. You know you know few years at at you know Meta A Few Years that Amazon if you felt they will just have sort of hit all the big ones other times it's sort I would.
21:56.35
Sarah
Lower pay to higher pay.
(01:38):
23:12.46
lauraklein
Sort of where interesting like people go places where they can learn a new thing or they feel like they could maybe you know expand in a particular area you you do very different jobs at the different kinds of companies and. That matters a lot sometimes to get kind of a mix for so again for some people some people so and no no shade like no I am not complaining about these folks at all if what matters to you is the number of Zeros on your paycheck that is fine like you go.
23:36.29
Sarah
Yeah, you right? right.
24:22.32
lauraklein
Ah, knock yourself knock yourself out like that's that's fantastic. Um, it's good to know what you like but there are also other things that lots of other people do take into consideration. Um I'm sort of curious. What all the what? All of them are so that but.
24:08.21
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, um, you you touched on one in there which is sometimes people really are looking for the opportunity to grow. That's often the case and sometimes you get that in big companies. But. Typically in big Companies. You have narrow and narrower Roles. You can often move around. So if you want to grow by changing jobs within a company bigger companies are better for that. But in smaller companies you get more responsibility and often more authority and like lower politics. So There's other more technical or product kinds of. Problem solving that you can do and for a lot of people. That's a huge draw um almost everybody wants to learn and grow I don't want to suggest that people who are pursuing big companies don't but there's different modes for that. Yeah,, there's different modes and that's I think.
26:19.12
lauraklein
No, no, no yeah, you're learning different stuff. Yeah.
25:53.89
Sarah
Definitely definitely and sometimes at a different rate and that I think is something that smaller companies. That's one of the things that can be a real advantage if you're able to talk about that genuinely.
26:52.26
lauraklein
Yeah, it's it's fascinating. Um I you know I hire mostly designers instead of engineers. But it's always interesting because if you're talking to somebody who's been. You know, mostly agencies or mostly in a house at large companies or mostly startups. Um, they can have just.
26:39.87
Sarah
You.
27:30.28
lauraklein
Wildly different approaches to sort of even the whole concept of design and I often really enjoy working with folks who've got a range of those who've done a you know 2 or 3 of those or even worked in some other area. You know like you know I'm I'm biased toward x engineers.
27:29.11
Sarah
Ah.
28:08.44
lauraklein
Um, recovering engineers as it were um, you know because I think that they bring a really interesting perspective to it. Um, but it I think startups kind of or smaller companies often Will let you do that. Right? They're not looking. You know they're looking for somebody who maybe has the ability to do many things.
(02:00):
28:06.19
Sarah
Yeah, right? Typically they need people who are a little more polymathic can do more stuff can fill more roles and can be flexible as the company grows and changes. You know they look for people who can grow and change with the company.
29:11.60
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, what? What specifically has worked for you and and maybe what what hasn't worked for you and in attracting folks.
28:49.90
Sarah
Yeah, well I think we've talked about 2 of the the main things is having a salary strategy like a comp strategy that is public that is like well thought through um, being able to talk genuinely about what.
29:41.40
lauraklein
O.
29:25.11
Sarah
What the opportunities are to grow or learn within any organization and with what some of the downsides are of the organization and then we also haven't talked about this but people tend to care a lot about culture and being able to be pretty explicit with examples of what some of the strengths and weaknesses. Of a culture that's been that has been successful for me as well. So those sort of 3 things is how I think about it. Um, yeah.
30:54.14
lauraklein
Know what? what are the kinds of cultural because like that culture I think at a company can feel so weird because it can be anything from you know what? I've heard about Amazon and I've never worked there so correct me if I'm on but a lot of lot of teams on Amazon very competitive, very driven people crying at their desks I don't.
30:40.70
Sarah
This is.
30:53.37
Sarah
You know, right? my.
31:33.92
lauraklein
If that's true. That's but those are the stories that you hear and so you know if I if you're not the kind of person who wants to cry at their desk I mean maybe someplace a little kinder you know like that's and that the culture thing but there's lots of things that fit under that that culture banner I think.
31:10.77
Sarah
Um, yeah rape.
31:27.37
Sarah
Um, yeah, so sorry I'm gonna pause for a second. There has been so many sirens is that coming through and do we need to pause when that happens.
(02:22):
32:26.86
lauraklein
It's fine I'm I'm just gonna tell everybody on the podcast that you're running from the law and that you're owning this in from a I mean sar sorry folks Sarah is actually currently in a police chase and she's on the lamb. So yeah, it's it's fine shut.
31:54.61
Sarah
There you go perfect. But I'm on the lamb. Yeah.
32:58.18
lauraklein
By the time this releases I'm sure it'll it'll have all worked out.
32:24.39
Sarah
Know I'll be in Canada it'll be fine. Um, Norway um, okay, yeah, sorry about this New York um yeah so so what is culture or how do we use it in hiring people. I think certainly a lot of it is how do people treat each other and what do we do to reinforce that and I think that it's None thing to say we have a kind culture and another thing to be able to say here are some of the structural things that we've done that support the culture that we want and. That for me being able to be intentional and saying either here's what we have done as a company here's what I do on my team. Um, that makes a big difference. So for example at daily where I am now we've tried a couple of these things when I none joined. Um. There were 25 engineers in the company and and 25 ics and no teams yet and I did ah a little bit of a listening tour and asked as we grow and as we start to form teams. What do you most want to stay the same and what do you most want to change and without any prompt at all one ah hundred percent of people said they wanted us to maintain our culture of kindness and I think people had had to be very kind and helpful to each other because everyone was their own. It was like a bus factor of a half for everything and and people really needed to support each other to get anything done. Um, and there's a real risk as we go into teams that we could start to lose some of that so when we were. Redoing our comp strategy the beginning of the year part of what we thought about is not putting in place a ah promotion system that rewards people for their individual work. Um, and instead. In fact, the way we have set up promotions is that it's purely um, based on time you. You come in. We love with you based on years of relevant experience when you join and you get more relevant experience at daily and grow into the next level by doing more work with us. But None of the things one of the effects that we hope to have in that is that it doesn't provide an incentive for people to stop helping each other. But we you're not your career trajectory at daily isn't based on star behavior or things that leave other people behind kind of have to work we all have to work together
37:51.94
lauraklein
That is very interesting. That's it's It's almost more like a union in that case that with the I'm I'm guessing that was perhaps intentional I don't know maybe it's but it is ah it it definitely selects for certain kinds of folks.
37:25.90
Sarah
Yeah, that's interesting.
38:26.86
lauraklein
Which is interesting.
37:49.23
Sarah
Yeah, right? And so we've we've written about it publicly and almost everybody who interviews with us mentions it and it does It's It's actually fantastic because it filters out people who would find this to be a completely unappealing structure and lots of people do legitimately. Feel like if they do outstanding work. They want to be rewarded for that quickly with pay and promotion and that's not how we're structured but lots of people see it and are like Wow Great I Don't have to worry about this I'm not going to be arbitrarily pitted against my colleagues or arbitrarily assessed in things I can just. Get paid reasonably and do my work and serve our customers and that's super appealing. So It's a good.. It's a good example. Both of sort of a comp strategy and also how we think about that fitting into our larger cultural values.
40:02.98
lauraklein
It is it is interesting it. It may also um, select for people with more experience. Ah which again and we have I've had this conversation so many times with with other design leaders specifically but also engineering leaders that like years of experience.
39:37.21
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent it does it no question.
40:38.94
lauraklein
Doesn't necessarily translate exactly to how good you are, but also I mean somebody with 10 years of experience is very different than somebody with 1 year of experience like they unless unless something. Ah, very strange happened in those 10 years. But.
(02:44):
40:36.83
Sarah
Ah, yeah, yeah.
41:19.88
lauraklein
Yeah, like like it is it is different so but it it is interesting because then you get to just manage based on improving their ability to do the things that they do but without worrying about competition and pitting people against each other or. People taking credit for other people's work. There's no incentive there for that which is ah very Interesting. It's a interestinging approach. Yeah, and yeah.
41:21.75
Sarah
Right? Exactly exactly? Yeah and I think you've hit on 2 important aspects of it. It does filter for more experienced people which was intentional on our part at this stage in our growth later on when we have more structure to support.
42:23.96
lauraklein
State of like.
41:58.13
Sarah
People who are earlier in their careers. We may rethink this a little bit but right now we're actually trying to hire more senior people. So it's a fit for us that way. Um, and I forget the other thing I was going to say so never mind I had the 1 thing time. Oh it's huge.
42:59.78
lauraklein
Ah, well then I think the not competing with each other is interesting I do I do see sometimes um in not not where I currently am but I have heard horror stories about comp and ah managing or promotion panels that.
42:34.65
Sarah
Yeah.
43:39.50
lauraklein
Pit people against one another I remember ah eight million years ago I worked at a ah place. Um, that did the ah the the workplace like they would just fire the lowest earning 10 or the the lowest performing 10% which just caused people to like.
43:22.69
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
44:14.82
lauraklein
Claw at each other. Even the people at the top right weren't didn't nobody felt safe ever and that's the opposite.
43:37.99
Sarah
But yeah, yeah, right? That's part of what we were trying to to avoid and also the amount of time that managers have to spend like creating promotion packets and arguing with each other and. Trying to Jackie for the like limited number of promotions but it's all time that you could be spending on customer facingcing work and at our stage we don't have time for anything but customer facing work. There may be a future when we want to have claw at each other about this stuff but that's not where we are now. Um. And it may be that we are you know, never there. But it's a really nice break from having to spend any time on the stuff that tends to undermine the relationships in the company in the none place. Um I did remember the other thing I was going to say about age which is I think people often. Um.
(03:06):
45:53.38
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
45:35.91
Sarah
Ah, sort of make the mistake of thinking that because we are more likely to attract more senior people we're more likely to make the mistake of hiring somebody who's senior but not very good over somebody who's Junior and great. But we don't base our hiring decisions on how. Much Experience. Somebody has maybe us are leveling decisions on that we have a whole different rubric for how we assess people.
47:08.78
lauraklein
That's interesting. Yeah now that's a great point and this brings up something because I was about to ask you the question. What is the hardest thing about hiring and I think this I think this relates to what you're about to say ah I um I have I have a little insight into this. Ah.
46:46.10
Sarah
Um, yeah, yeah I think the hardest thing about hiring and also this is sort of the hardest thing about getting hired in some ways is figuring out if somebody's a good fit for the role that you have open. You know, like notoriously and like deep research backs that interviewing is broken in all ways that it does is not a good predictor almost all the facets of interviewing talking to people in questions and all the kinds of questions and take-homes and whiteboarding and all of it is almost all a bad predictor of whether somebody is going to be. Good for the job and sometimes it's a bad predictor in that you screen out people who would be good and sometimes it's a bad predictor in that you hire people who are bad. Both things happen but actually being able to assess people is quite difficult.
49:07.40
lauraklein
I was going to say So yeah I was going to say sometimes it's sometimes as difficult just in that it causes tremendous trauma to everybody involved. Ah.
48:33.13
Sarah
And it's hard on the other side to be assessed like accurately. Yeah.
48:47.30
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent totally I mean there is a part of me that's like well if we did it by lottery even now I actually I say that and I really have felt good about many hires I've made over the years that have turned out beautifully of course so and lottery would not have necessarily gotten. Those colleagues? Um, but it is true that there can be a real cost to a very imperfect process.
50:15.56
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, and that that it that is 100% true and it is interesting because like that I'm glad that you said that you know we don't just hire people because they've got you know ten or twenty years of experience or whatever because I mean sometimes we're the worst um, especially for any particular role.
50:06.49
Sarah
I guess.
50:53.84
lauraklein
Um, but ah I I know that on some of these podcasts I'm going to get into the like how to actually assess people and um for some here's the weirdest thing for me engineers and designers I think are both we we actually have and I've I've. Of course done both roles right? Um, not as well. One of them not as well as the other ah just saying um I've done both roles and I will say it is We are asked to present so much more evidence.
51:04.95
Sarah
But.
(03:28):
52:09.48
lauraklein
Of what we've done. Then for example I don't know product or um, you know, even maybe even sometimes marketing like you know it's We're often asked. You do we've got portfolio reviews. We've got whiteboard tests Sometimes we have take home tests Sometimes you know like there's the coding interview like.
51:38.70
Sarah
Yeah.
52:46.62
lauraklein
There's you know, looking at your your open source projects on engineer you know for engineers. There's like all this extra stuff and it's still almost impossible to tell if somebody's going to actually be able to do the work when they get in I don't it's.
52:36.37
Sarah
Yeah, so hard. It's interesting like 1 of the things that we do at daily is we have a paid take home for all of our roles and we'll develop a new take home for new roles. But it takes a minute to calibrate the the take homes and.
53:29.46
lauraklein
Is.
53:15.63
Sarah
So we we pay the None people who do it a little more and they can give us feedback and we assume it's going to be a little rocky but sometimes in that early the early stages of ah, a new take home will have somebody who we can't tell we don't get very good signal from it. We can't tell if it's because our take home isn't good yet or because actually they're not a good fit.
54:27.94
lauraklein
Right.
53:54.51
Sarah
And it takes a while to get to a place where the take home might actually give good signal and then we're sort of that then there's a real quandary in what to do in those situations.
54:47.12
lauraklein
It's tricky too especially on the I don't know about on the engineering side as much but on the design side. It's very hard because a lot of times those design take homeme tests are very much designed I mean they sort of have to be like it's go do this thing in like 8 hours or I mean if you're paying it. You could be a little bit longer but you know people have jobs and stuff. Yeah.
54:37.10
Sarah
The.
55:22.70
lauraklein
Like go go design this whole thing in 8 hours and it's like well that's not actually how we design things so I will personally not learn anything from seeing how somebody designed something in 8 hours um which is tricky because otherwise you know you've got people who.
(03:50):
54:54.53
Sarah
Um, yeah.
55:59.96
lauraklein
Like I I like portfolio reviews a lot so that to see if they can speak to their portfolio. But then every every once in a while you get somebody who's just real good at talking and maybe not so good at actually the doing of the work you know, but.
55:35.70
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, exactly right right? I mean similarly take homes you can get someone who's good at the take home but is not particularly good in the form of engineering that we do in the longer over Time. Or is not a great teammate but they interview Beautifully. You know there's lots of ways it can go on.
56:52.34
lauraklein
Yeah, it's that's awful. Do you? Ah do you have any any anything weird ever Happen Any great stories any any bizarre situations as a candidate or or as a a a hiring manager I was like I was like hearing if somebody has had something really strange happen I.
56:50.97
Sarah
Ah, yeah, right? I mean I did once interview at Unnamed Big Co that
57:31.80
lauraklein
Like everybody who's ever interviewed me has had something strange happen I'll just say that.
57:23.55
Sarah
Flew me to their headquarters for like a day of interviews and it was supposed to start with the Vp of the department at the time. And I knew things were a little off the rails when he seemed to have forgotten that I was going to be there. Um and showed up a little bit showed up like super late and and and like admitted to not knowing I was moving there but it it went. Worse from there in all ways like there was there were a bunch of case interviews that they had given me the wrong information for and half of it was over video even though I was in the office with somebody who the video kept cutting out the whole thing was just terrible and I got I left being like well I definitely didn't get the job and I'm not sure I would want to work there. And then a couple of weeks later I learned that the guy who was the hiring manager had been fired from the whole company for harassment reasons and the whole department was in chaos and I was like oh right that tracks. Um.
01:00:11.86
lauraklein
Um, it's weird because I will say this having having occasionally been an organization. Maybe that? Um, where our our hiring process is not Perfect. It's not always the smoothest I Always like to say I always sort of like to say you know I. Especially like right now you know I apologize for you know your experience with the recruiters. They're very tired. They're trying their best. It's It's kind of chaos. Um, please don't let that reflect on the actual team. Um, and then there's that story where oh no, that.
01:00:41.73
Sarah
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:26.14
lauraklein
That's just that was ah all those red flags weighing yeah wasn't enough should have been a Madtadors cape.
01:00:56.59
Sarah
Ah, hundred percent yeah right there just aren't enough red flags in the world for that situation. Um, but I I do have a little bit of ah, a story on the other side that's it's a really good one and I think illuminates something important which is.
(04:12):
01:01:46.62
lauraklein
Ah, you know that is a storm warning.
01:01:31.81
Sarah
Even though we can't get good signal from the average interview. We can put a lot of effort into making sure the candidates have a good experience like that's probably the most important thing we can do for many reasons if we want them to join. We want them to have a good experience even if we don't.
01:02:23.12
lauraklein
And then.
01:02:03.53
Sarah
Make them an offer. We want them to leave and tell their friends. This seemed like a good Place. We may want to connect with them down the road.. There are many many reasons why we really want candidates to have a good experience and that happens in all these different ways. Um, and I have a kind of a funny story about that. Um, at a previous company when I was interviewing in. Person in their offices I had come with a disposable coffee but in a metal with a metal straw that I had brought and at one point I left the coffee in the interview room when I went to use the bathroom when I came back. It was gone. The whole thing was gone and um I asked if anyone had seen what had happened to my coffee. And it had just been thrown away like somebody had come to clean the room and I was like oh that's too bad and during that segment of interviews. The recruiter went out and bought me a package of metal straws and yeah and I will never forget her and I hope I get a chance to work with her again and I wound up taking the job but it wasn't because of the metal straws.
01:04:22.36
lauraklein
That's a sweet.
01:04:01.49
Sarah
But it really told me something about how the company thought about candidates and the experience that they wanted us to have and that she was sort of like empowered to do that and got right on it and it became a little bit of a joke rather than like oh we're so sorry that sucks.
01:05:07.36
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, edge to it well too. But too bad for you and your metal straws. Um, it is It is interesting I I think that matters a ton. Especially you know, getting back to the original topic of just the the small companies or the the companies that can't pay as much.
01:04:37.23
Sarah
Yeah, so.
01:05:42.10
lauraklein
Just making people feel respected and or I don't even once they feel respected making sure that people understand that they are respected and that um they will continue to be respected at work and that that means that you're not going to leave them hanging for three months or whatever during the process or you're not going to just drop them or ghost them or you're. Gonna you know, follow up promptly and get them an offer and that their time has value like those things matter like if they've been waiting on a manga for six weeks because they couldn't bother to get around to giving you an offer and you come in with a good offer even though they know they might get.
01:06:02.35
Sarah
Yeah.
01:06:58.92
lauraklein
Twice as much someplace else lot of people kind of go. You know what? this place is great. This is enough. This is what I want. Yeah.
(04:34):
01:06:31.25
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, that's so true and I think you know often we have to move quickly because we're in a competitive situation but it does really reflect how we think about Candidates I say that with like a little bit of hesitation because I have in my inbox. To people that I have not followed up with in a timely manner for reasons, but it's on me not on them and it feels bad. But for the most part I think that is hugely important being being good communicators ourselves being on getting ahead of telling people. What's happening being responsive when they send. Thank you notes And. Um, making sure that we're staying connected to them so they don't wonder what's happening because it's so hard to be on the other side of it.
01:08:35.84
lauraklein
So yeah, it really is and I I will say this I'm I'm sure that they they're in your inbox I'm sure that you feel like you haven't I mean I can just tell you some of the stories that I've heard from people I guarantee you it's not the level of miscommunication that I have seen at ah.
01:08:32.61
Sarah
Um, one.
01:09:11.60
lauraklein
Ah, you you have not those those emails have not been in your inbox for as long as they have been in some of the recruiters I've talked to just going to throw out that out there anyway. Um that is all the time that we have for today. Um I just want to thank Sarah Melstein ah for joining us I also want to thank.
01:08:42.37
Sarah
That.
01:08:53.47
Sarah
Fair of her.
01:09:48.66
lauraklein
All of you out there listening and I want to wish you all the best of luck with your own search whether it's for a new job or a new employee I am rooting for you.
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