Innovative Recruiting - A unique approach to hiring with Bryan Cantrill

In this episode, Laura talks to Bryan Cantrill, CTO of Oxide, about a wildly different approach to recruiting and hiring. 

Drink Pairing: Diet Dr. Pepper

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
00:03.71
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are both somehow absolute night nurse I'm your host Laura Klein please be advised that this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. My guest today is Brian Cantrell he is the cto of oxide and I'm just going to throw this out there. Um, oxide is definitely hiring so keep that in mind because what we are going to be talking about today with Brian is a really interesting approach to hiring that is ah there a but. Things about this that are quite different and very well thought out and I want to hear about how he came to decide this so hi Brian. Yeah yeah.
00:46.35
Bryan Cantrill
Oh no, yeah, you're asking. That's a great opener. It does. That's a great opener but it does take me to. Ah yeah I would love to tell you that um I sat in a room and and thought high thoughts.
01:03.37
lauraklein
M.
01:05.12
Bryan Cantrill
And this this hiring process which we'll describe in some detail is what came out but that is not what happened at all. Unfortunately um I was engaged in ah what I would say was a pretty typical hiring process for many years so I was ah prior to cofounding oxide. Um I was at a cloud computing company for 9 years where I was the the cto for that Vp of engineering and then before that I was at a computer company some microsystems for 14 years so I had done a decent amount of hiring I done I had built the team at sun but then and especially at a joint I'd done a lot of hiring. Um and. I um I made the worst hire of all time I mean I made a very very very bad hire and I love you know whenever you get like ah you know you get folks who have done some hiring together and they're like well actually I feel I've made the worst hire of all time and I'm like okay, but maybe. Ah, so mine involves a criminal record and an assumed name. So ah yeah, if you don't have violent felonies in the history I'm not so I'm not telling you that youre hired. It's worse than my hire.
02:04.78
lauraklein
Um, oh.
02:10.66
lauraklein
Um, who comes among us come on. It was a different time.
02:16.60
Bryan Cantrill
But I but I'm just saying that like we're like this is we're we're playing pro ball here. So like you're going to have to bring your a game if you what if your hire is worse than my hire I Really want to hear that story because my hire was pretty bad and um it was bad on and I e.
02:29.87
lauraklein
Okay.
02:34.63
Bryan Cantrill
Um, you know I think that but actions funny because we were you know we kind of in polite society over here like I we we're just not used to like truly deeply pathological people. Criminally pathological people. We don't deal with I don't deal with on a regular basis. And ah in the throes of dealing with this worst hire of all time I I talked to a a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist for the California prison system and I yeah he was like yeah. And this is the this is like part of the course for me this is like what you're describing is probably a none of the people that I deal with a pelican bay which is to say associate breath. So fun. Um, yeah, yes, that was great. Um, and all of that was so and we you know got that person out.
03:24.24
lauraklein
Um, good Yeah, but yeah.
03:25.15
Bryan Cantrill
Um, I learned a lot about. Um yeah, if you by the way if if anyone presents to you under an assumed name and you later discover that they have a violent criminal record that makes them ineligible to work for you and you would like my advice on on how to ah to. Ah, affect that transition. Um, let me give you a little actually can I give ah a total winning piece of advice that I hope to never have to use again in my career. Okay, so if you ever have someone and and may your career be long and you never have this problem if you ever have someone where you're like.
03:49.87
lauraklein
I Would love to hear this.
04:01.85
Bryan Cantrill
I Need this person out of this office this second like and I I don't have time to get any ducks in a row I don't have time like I need to preserve the safety of my staff and then we can kind of figure things out suspend with pay so you can suspend someone with pay.
04:12.29
lauraklein
Yeah.
04:20.91
Bryan Cantrill
For any reason at any time and if you suspend with pay you are pulling them off all the Hr systems you are locking them out of the building you are disabling their email you are going through your termination process but because they are going to remain paid. That you are within you in every state. In fact, I mean obviously this is not legal advice. A I give my guess worth Um, the metal there. But it's a good tip and and this it's a It's a very good tip. Um, and I'm an obviously talk Lawyer. You're in the situation. But.
04:41.65
lauraklein
So yeah I am not a lawyer. No, that's just fine. It's a really, It's a really good tip though. This is your.
04:56.40
Bryan Cantrill
As an employer you have extremely broad broad latitude to suspend people with pet. Um, and again anytime they want and so and then you've got all the time in the world like okay now like we have effectively terminated this person even though they still work here but they can't communicate with the company and so on.
04:58.89
lauraklein
Sure they could suspend me with pay anytime they want.
05:14.45
Bryan Cantrill
Now we have got the number of days weeks. Whatever we need to actually get everything in order and make sure that we're abiding by all of our regulatory compliance or what have you to make sure that this person is being transitioned. So.
05:26.82
lauraklein
And I and I very much like the ah the the prioritization of the safety of of others in that particular one that is much appreciated I'm sure by staff. Yeah yeah.
05:31.52
Bryan Cantrill
Me I Yep I Let's just say that that was not like a me that was not a profile and courage for me I mean that was like a it was very queer and fact and I I mean quite the opposite it was after this person was out. It was. A getting the team together and it wasn't just this person. There was a there. There was a larger because as it turns out there was kind of a larger coterie of folks that were aware of this and I mean it was It was bad and we got kind of managed through all of that as a team.

(00:31):
06:03.24
lauraklein
Okay.
06:08.43
Bryan Cantrill
And but we had this moment of everything that we have done about hiring is wrong. Everything is broken because well it was It was a hell of a postmark.
06:18.47
lauraklein
That must have been quite a postmortem on the the hiring process because.
06:26.10
Bryan Cantrill
It was a hell of a post-wartem Actually I mean it was very and I did it very? um I mean I wanted to it very deliberately. The team was traumatized. We really needed to get everyone together. It was very cathartic and and we really wanted to go through what do we like? where did we go wrong and.
06:40.62
lauraklein
Like we.
06:44.17
Bryan Cantrill
We concluded that we had gone wrong in many many many many many places and so there were a bunch of things that we learned um and you know one of the ways in which one of the big ways in which we'd gone wrong is this was a person and the other folks that were kind of part of this coterie were people. Who were very good in a conversation so they could win a conversation and there are like there are things you can do to win a conversation. There are things that you can do to dominate a conversation. There are things that you can do to keep the subject matter.
07:03.78
lauraklein
Here So get.
07:18.74
Bryan Cantrill
On a subject matter with which you got great acquaintance I mean there are tricks that you can pull to be very I and you can even be like politely and jovially dominant a conversation right? I I may have been accused of this in my life but which would that not be an unre right over I because like what I.
07:37.80
lauraklein
I relate I relate. Let's just say that Well just we'll leave it there.
07:37.58
Bryan Cantrill
And yeah, you know I I Well and the way we put it this way like I I definitely relate because I I interview very well like I could interview for you know, kind of an arbitrary job and probably do pretty well at it because I'm a good conversationalist but it doesn't mean I'm good at the Job. And the and what we kind of realized was the ah the and I you know I had known this I think we all know this that your ability to perform well in a conversation or well in an oral exam does not actually correlate to the work at hand and what you.
08:10.76
lauraklein
No, not at all.
08:14.47
Bryan Cantrill
What you actually want to be doing is evaluating people on their fitness for the work at hand and the way to do that is not an interview. It's just not a.
08:18.15
lauraklein
Yeah.
08:25.48
lauraklein
That's a great point because interviews do very much tell you how they do in an interview and you're right, they're They're not correlated I've always.
08:29.70
Bryan Cantrill
Um, have it do an interview.
08:34.28
lauraklein
Said there's like there's the skill of getting jobs and there's the skill of doing jobs and sometimes those show up in the same person but not negatively or positively correlated in any way.
08:36.37
Bryan Cantrill
Um, that's right.
08:44.90
Bryan Cantrill
That's I think you're exactly right and I have had and I mean again, this was like I knew this at some level and as a result like 1 thing I mean I had never done the kind of le coding whiteboard exams I had never done that because I knew that I just knew too many people that would be.
09:00.38
lauraklein
She.
09:00.84
Bryan Cantrill
That were introverted or nervous or that were terrific. Engineers right? that don't necessarily interview all that Well so I had I had never done that but the reality was we were still dependent upon the interview. The the interview the conversation and. And then like the kind of the rolodex the the network like ah who's worked with this person. Oh This person's worked with that person that person's worked with this person. This person's worked with this person and you're kind of like going through this web and the problem is and this is what happened to us if in that web that you're navigating you you leap a kind of a chasm into a bad Person. You can bring in an entire bad person's network which is more or less what had happened to us. Oh with that? Yeah bad, good Night. So um, we changed everything with a we did hiring and we ah and designed a hiring process.
09:36.16
lauraklein
Oh oh, that's a great point. Oh yeah, Huh ah.

(00:52):
09:53.10
Bryan Cantrill
That is in None different ways designed to not miss hire and in particular it is very as you've seen. It is very writing intensive and it's ah our process happens before any conversations with the team. So we are and and we are going to ask you a bunch of very direct questions I want to ask you work related questions. So and we've polished this a lot of doxide. So this is this kind of that was the genesis of it but we've we've enhanced it a bunch of oxide. Um, so really basic questions so we want to ask you? um. Well none of all, we want to ask you portfolio-based questions. So I want you to talk about work that you've done that you're proud of and walk me through it. Whatever it is and if it's on Github that's great if it's in the public domain. That's great if it's not if it's proprietary describe it for me and describe it in technical detail I want to get it an analysis sample. I want you to describe a problem that you've solved that required you know for a designer for this is one of those the portfolio based questions will vary based on role right? So but for an engineer I really want to know about a problem that that required your analytical ability I want you to walk me through it when.
10:53.11
lauraklein
Short.
11:03.39
Bryan Cantrill
I Want you know, have you given it any presentations If you have point to them so I can watch them. Um, plenty of engineers have never given a presentation that's fine. Plenty of engineers have given presentations. They're like oh my God I'm mortified like I was terrified of doing this I don't like this I don't like the way I sound that's fine too. Um. But then there are but there are other folks that like I want to actually ah I want to hear their voice I Want to hear the way they carry themselves and I and we're gonna take this kind of totality of work as as a portfolio and that that portfolio is is important then the this other dimension. Is extraordinarily important to me which is a art questionnaire which is much more values based So We're very, We're very explicit about our values at oxide about our principles and our values and we differentiate clearly between principles are the things never to be violated in a company.
11:43.27
lauraklein
Who.
11:56.76
Bryan Cantrill
Um, honesty integrity decency. These are the things that that we must always abide by even if we really disagree with one another. Ah values are much more intention so we have got. We've got 15 values at oxide. Um, they've got the go into that if you if we're interested in terms of like how how we came with that number why it's so important to us. But we ah ask and we ask people to to memorize the values so courage candor Curiosity diversity empathy humor Optimism Resilience Responsibility Rigor Teamwork Thriftiness Transparency urgency and versatility. Those are the values right? there you go.
12:32.13
lauraklein
I I would I would ask you but I have I have not memorized them yet. But.
12:34.90
Bryan Cantrill
So we it. Yeah, right? Why we do that we can talk about that in detail but the I but I lead the kid scout troop. So I know that everyone's capable of memorizing that kind of a list so that this is the week we work in scouts but the um those values are a lens for a. For everything we do at oxide and the way we kind of carry ourselves so we ask them. We ask folks? What have you been proud of in your career and why um we ask folks to when have you been happiest in your career and why when have you been unhappiest in your career and why it is amazing. How much you get from a written answer to that question. Of when have you been unhappies in your in your career and why and what I'm dying to do which we can't do is to stress test this against the the worst hire of all time because my belief is that that person's answer to when they were unhappiest and why.
13:23.53
lauraklein
Ah.
13:32.70
Bryan Cantrill
Would have in fact, revealed that they were not fit to work it.
13:37.57
lauraklein
Do you do you think that's true. Do you or I mean it's because it's interesting. Nobody's going to come right out and say like well I'm happiest to work when I'm crushing my enemies I mean I might but like I I might do that as a joke. Oh what would they? oh all right? go on ah freely.
13:43.60
Bryan Cantrill
Oh ah, the oh oh contrary all contrary. Oh of oh they Oh they do? Absolutely Yes, yep beat.
13:54.76
lauraklein
Even after reading the like compassion and the yep I might my happiest is when I win arguments which I don't I don't hate.
14:02.00
Bryan Cantrill
Ah, and the the the one that is particularly telling is I'm unhappiest like I'm unhappiest when I'm surrounded by idiots. You know you you kind of get this. There's a grandiosity that will reveal itself if you have someone who's not reflective.
14:11.27
lauraklein
Fifth This yeah.
14:19.50
Bryan Cantrill
Who has these kind of manic like you can see it. Um, we ask people to describe an oxide value that has been particularly exhibited in their career and how and why we ask people about an oxide value that's particularly violated in their career and how they dealt with it. Then we ask people this one we kind of threw on it The last second it's been very Fascinating. We Ask people to take 2 oxide values and describe when they came into tension for them and how they resolve it. Um, and that's really Interesting. Um I would say that most people.
14:45.39
lauraklein
And now.
14:49.98
Bryan Cantrill
It's It's not uncommon and we definitely encourage it because these are values that come in the tension all the time for us at oxide rigor and urgency often come into tension where and they come and I think that's true regardless of whatever domain you're in I think that that rigor and urgency just come in the tension a lot. Um, and.
14:56.19
lauraklein
Yeah.
15:07.57
Bryan Cantrill
I Think it's great when people are explicit about it because then we can kind of navigate it together and then the I would say honestly the single most important question we ask. That's also super basic. Why do you want to work for oxide and um ah those written answers. Comprise what we call the materials and we put all of our effort. Into the much of our effort into the thoughtful review of those materials people put a lot of time making these materials we want to make sure we put a lot of time in reviewing those materials and that has been ah extraordinary for us because we've been able to find people that you would not have found otherwise I can I I know. Because I you know you will look at a resume the number of times because you got the resume too right? So the number of times and I always look at the resume first because maybe it's because I That's what I've done for my whole career. It's out a habit.? Whatever but the number of times that I look at the resume and I'm like ooh this resume looks amazing. And then you go to the materials and you're like Wow the materials are just not good and it is conversely the number of times I've looked at a resume and I've been like I don't know this resume that's kind of like I don't know if this experience does not really seem to be very apropos and then you go into the materials and the materials are like moving.
16:06.52
lauraklein
Yeah.
16:21.38
Bryan Cantrill
Where you got like Wow this person like I what depth of character and like we got to talk to this person. So um, it's been extraordinary. Um, that has been extraordinary. Ah we put a twist on it. That we have not talked about too much publicly but is a wild wild twist. So ah, the the way we evaluate candidates is primarily through these materials when we're bringing people in for conversations we're already like pretty sure there's a fit because we've had a lot of people. Ah.

(01:13):
16:52.59
lauraklein
And.
16:57.21
Bryan Cantrill
Review Those materials and come to the conclusion that yes, there's a fed here. We have also then taken the additional step of calling candidates and we were a very transparent company. So All of our engineering documentation is in a repo. It's all private but it's in a repo and we open that up for candidates. Before they come in for conversations so they can see exactly what we're doing because the number of times and I'm sure you've had this happen in your career too where you you know this is definitely happened to me where you're interviewing for a job and it's like Wow this place sounds amazing and then like okay you take the job and you start and you're like what the fuck is this. This is a chicken. Like I wait a minute where's this castle that I was promised in my interview like oh no, no, no like you build that like oh I owe. Okay, oh that was aspirational. How was aspirational. Okay, so.
17:42.71
lauraklein
Oh that's oh that was that was aspirational. Yeah I didn't get that part. Um.
17:50.98
Bryan Cantrill
Actually I and I actually did have a boss once who I had called him out on on exactly one of these things where he had just more or less lied to the board and I'm like ah so that thing you described as having been built like that's that's not been built like you know that isn brian in classical Greek there is something. Yeah, oh.
18:06.84
lauraklein
Oh no O stra. No absolutely not Nope gonna stopmp you right there. But.
18:10.80
Bryan Cantrill
No, no, no no in classically I will not be stopped in in classical Greek there is something called the optive voice and the optive voice is where you refer to something in the future as if it were true today and I'm like.
18:26.40
lauraklein
We call that lagging in English. Yeah.
18:30.00
Bryan Cantrill
But that's exactly what I say I'm like actually it a sorry in English with its inadedequacies and not actually having a voice dedicated for this condition. We just call it live that good juy say yes, no, no, absolutely no, not no no I had the same but time it's a lying.
18:39.19
lauraklein
We just called. That's just lying That's lie. Sorry sorry to step on your punchline there. But oh my God yeah.
18:49.62
Bryan Cantrill
So yes, so there you go So and the I it in in any case we um where how to get you the optive voice where are we here I mean I need and to find my way back. Um, so we we wanted to be sure that when when folks are coming in for a conversation.
18:49.76
lauraklein
Ah, wow.
19:07.80
Bryan Cantrill
They have seen the company warts and all I want people to know everything that we're embarrassed about that we wish were better that is not as good as we want it to be because I don't want people to come in and be like wait a minute. This is not what I signed up for.
19:08.41
lauraklein
Um, right.
19:21.22
lauraklein
And.
19:23.22
Bryan Cantrill
None thing that's extremely important to me as a leader in an organization is the intrinsic motivation of the people that work at oxide. You've got to have deep intrinsic motivation that is in my experience that is the most important factor around success or failure is intrinsic motivation and when it's present. You can make up for all sorts of deficiencies in None ne's background or experience if it and and succeed and if it's not present. You can have an unbelievable experience in background and still not succeed in a and a gig because you just don't want to that much.
19:56.87
lauraklein
Often often. 1 of the things I've seen is that if you are extrinsically motivated and what you really care about is promotion and more money you optimize for that. So in those cases their resumes may look even better.
20:11.19
Bryan Cantrill
Absolutely.
20:13.19
lauraklein
If the people who are intrinsically motivated are just like I like learning interesting things with smart people and making stuff that matters like those people's resumes look often bizarre.
20:20.44
Bryan Cantrill
That's right, that's right. But you but that's exactly right? And that's why the in the materials really help us us that out then this extra step of them understanding the company helps them us that out. So once we're in the conversations. It's like look we know you from the materials you know us because you've been in the documentation like we're now having a true conversation about. Is this what you want to do next? What we want to do next. So when we were hiring one of our None employees. 1 of the things that we did when when we started the company and as I made queer to this very early employee this would been maybe like the none or none employee. Telling him that like look as we were pulling this company together and getting seed financing raised a lot of money and and kind of pulling together a bunch of folks quickly that hadn't necessarily worked with one another we did this to allow people to introduce themselves to None another so the entire company including the co-founders have done this I've done these materials and he's like wait a minute you all have done this I'm like yeah. Yeah, we've all done this. Its like you all have done the exact same thing that that I'm doing as part of this yes, we have. It's like okay can I read yours and I'm like oh hot damn that's a good idea. That's a great I'm like just a moment I'm like I need to check with the team. But Mike if we can.
21:23.38
lauraklein
Um, that's a great question.
21:31.80
Bryan Cantrill
Establish this as the way we do things now and everyone's like yeah, that's a good idea So This is what we do So when you come in for conversations. What we've gotten to know you you now get to know us you get the materials of the people that you are speaking to in advance of speaking to them. You get to learn when I. Was nonehappest in my career and when I was happiest in my career and when values came in the tension for me and values that have been exhibited in my career and you do that for every member of the team and the quality of conversation we have is just next level I mean it's like that you get to a depth in the conversation that you simply don't get to.

(01:34):
22:09.26
lauraklein
Her.
22:11.34
Bryan Cantrill
Ah, when people are kind of so I kind of feel like you know we're at the finish line and people who have these traditional interview processes are like how are you possibly I mean you're getting lucky. Basically when you're hiring people that work because the process that you're taking is not a process. It's just Like. We're gonna come in and kind of see how you smell. That's what an interview process is and it's that that is I mean it as a result you know I think that but that the proof is in the pudding. Um, we have. Ah ah we got a team that is a.
22:32.13
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
22:47.11
Bryan Cantrill
Deeply deeply deeply dedicated Team. We've got a team that shares Values. We've got a team that ah and I The other thing I Love about it is ah it's a team that shares values but it's a super diverse team in in all these different axes coming from different parts of the country and different backgrounds and different companies and so on and. What has brought them together are are these these shared values and that the process is a huge huge huge part of that and I know that like there's plenty of oxide that's idiosyncratic Also is now the time to mention that we pay everyone the same I'm not sure if that was the time to like.
23:16.73
lauraklein
Yeah I feel like we could do a whole thing on that. But yes that was fascinating that like literally everybody has the same salary. Yeah.
23:21.86
Bryan Cantrill
No was everyone has since our ah which has been um, enormously important that has been the that was not that was kind of something we were doing at the outset just because it seemed to make sense of based the team we were bringing in.
23:34.48
lauraklein
So that's okay I mean like it. It's It's interesting like it does make sense in a certain way but it is absolutely not obvious right? It is very much.
23:39.18
Bryan Cantrill
And then as we got.
23:46.38
Bryan Cantrill
Um, it is not obvious.
23:49.33
lauraklein
It is. It is not something that most people do It's not like oh we're just going to go with like best practices. It's We're going to try this entirely different thing. Yeah.
23:53.87
Bryan Cantrill
Ah, a radically different thing and the and you know it was funny because as we got deeper and and so we we were doing that from the beginning and that was a reflection of several points of principle I was not going to pay people differently based on their geography.. That's a point of principle for me. Um, I'm just not going to but because I don't believe in paying people based on their cost of living. Um because I mean it's like like like when somebody is like come like inherits money from a deceased grandparent. Do We slash their salary like hey congratulations on your inheritance sorry to hear about your grandparent.
24:16.78
lauraklein
I agree I Yeah I strongly agree on that one like.
24:27.99
lauraklein
With it.
24:29.97
Bryan Cantrill
We're cutting your salary because you but you know it's like what no of course not it's like we we pay people based on their work and so that that was a point of principle for me. Um, and we knew we're going to have a local remote team. We started before before covid before the pandemic we knew we're going to have a local and remote team so kind of like it was a sensible thing to go do. And then it would just like wasn't a sensible thing to change and kind of fast forward a year and change and kind of talking to the team about hey how do we like you know how do we find a broader cross sectionction of folks and.
24:48.60
lauraklein
Just from the 8
25:04.40
Bryan Cantrill
Something and my view had been that like look salary is kind of private I just grew up in they you know I don't know I just felt like your salary was private was was kind of the way we we don't talk about money. Um, and so I wasn't going to really talk about it publicly. But as we were talking about how to get a ah more diverse cross section of folks. None of the ideas that one of the team members had is like you know I think we need to talk about the compensation because when I talk about the values that we have at oxide my friends think it's bullshit and I try to convince them like no no like it's it's it's like deeply felt and I'm kind of I kind of have an argument with them until I mention the compensation. And then when I say like oh by the way we're all paid the same. They're like wait a minute what it's like okay maybe it's not bullshit like with with ah sorry what are you doing again and it so I was like okay well we could I could like write a blog entry about this should I do that and it was amazing because one of the nice things actually post pandemic. Is your ability to have like a gallery view of you can look kind of 20 people in the eye in a way that you actually can't in a conference room and the body language from those folks which is all just like yes, please please write about this I'm like okay so we ah. But wrote a blog entry. Thanks to you my my working together with my colleagues to talk about why we've done what we had done and um and we're very explicit about that like look this is not like we're not saying we're doing this for the end of time. It's not necessarily a point of principle per se but boy is it working out well for us and here's why we've done it. And I definitely believe in transparent compensation like no question even a future oxide that one thing I have completely changed my point of view on is transparent compensation as I mentioned I used to think competition is private I now believe very strongly that compensation should be transparent. Not surprisingly as you might imagine because at some point early on in oxide people were talking about all of the the pay cuts that they took to come to oxide now we pay an oxide would pay none. It was a hundred and eight hundred and seventy five we started the company and ah so we're breaking none and everyone's saying yeah I took a really serious pay cut to come oxide and some said well actually I didn't take a pay cut I actually got a pay increase. Someone else said I actually got a pay increase to and a None person said I actually I also took a pay increase and all you know who those people were and it was like.
27:26.89
lauraklein
I'll bet I know I'll bet I know who those people were ah yeah.
27:33.34
Bryan Cantrill
Are you fucking kidding me I mean it was a true like eye opening moment I'm like are you fucking kidding me that some of the most competent people I have ever worked with in my entire career have been grossly underpaid.
27:38.47
lauraklein
Ah.
27:52.21
Bryan Cantrill
Because in this case as you could imagine because of their gender like what and I'm like Okay yeah, thanks, got religion on that one transparent compensation. So like no oh yeah, well it.
27:55.37
lauraklein
Yelp! yep.

(01:55):
28:00.73
lauraklein
Um, really really does help anybody from an underrepresented community and yet. Absolutely yeah, yeah.
28:10.87
Bryan Cantrill
And it just like it. You just everybody in now at Oxide. It's still pretty straightforward because it's transparent and and it's uniform right now. So we've you know we we have more than doubled the company and retained that uniformity and honestly I don't see it changing anytime soon because when we. I Mean again, it may change in the limit and it what changes we'll be transparent about it. But the thing that's been interesting people like oh well, you can't make it work for Sales. You can't make it work for Support. You can't make it work for Lab Tech I'm like okay curiosity. So Let's talk about Support. Um. Everyone has been in in my line of work has worked with some support engineer who's just like unbelievably good so much better than other folks. They've worked with is that person worth the same salary that you make Oh yeah, yeah, definitely that person's worth say like okay so to work so it's it. Okay, so maybe.
28:54.20
lauraklein
Um, sometimes sometimes more. But yeah.
29:01.38
Bryan Cantrill
We will just find the absolute best folks in these grossly underpaid domains which are incredibly important but have been underpaid for not good reason. They've been underpaid because people feel that they can underpaid So this is I mean.
29:06.40
lauraklein
And.
29:17.40
Bryan Cantrill
When the history of the company is writ that blog entry is part of really what set our ah everything about the company nonlinear because it attracted a whole new set of folks to the company not because of the compensation per se but because of what the compensation reflected. Um, and again I know that's not a fit for for lots of companies. Maybe um and and I know like there's plenty of what we're doing that makes no sense or or doesn't travel very well about the companies I do feel very very strongly about having a hiring process though that that. Puts more on the candidate in advance and they're like well people will say like well I don't want to put like why should a candidate do like 8 hours of work for the job. It's like hey the candidate is going to do 8 hours of work when they come in an interview like sorry they're they're going to come in an interview. So why not move more of that ahead of time. And allow you to get a better idea of who these people actually are and None of the things we've heard over and over and over again candidates even ones we've passed on is this process was really helpful for me this process I've heard from people actually one of the things I have heard more than once is doing the oxide process. Made me realize that I didn't want to work for oxide and am i.
30:33.16
lauraklein
Oh yeah, that I was actually thinking that like that. It's very you definitely self select for certain certain things. Yeah.
30:39.37
Bryan Cantrill
Absolutely self-select and and one of the things you self-elect for is like I don't think I'm that into this like I thought I was because you know I especially like now this is not true when I came up. But now there are people who study computer science because their parents wanted them to study computer science like this was not something that like knew but my generation was studying computer science when I would mean nobody because their parents wanted them to I get.
30:56.61
lauraklein
Um, you know.
31:04.80
lauraklein
Like there. No there were probably like a few people whose like parents were like big in the semiconductor industry but like really when I got my first computer in the 80 s like it was I was the None one in the family to know how to use it I had to teach them how to use it.
31:17.73
Bryan Cantrill
Absolutely and I think that like for my generation. It was more like computer sciences like I think you you couldn't study that like that's like a like the argument where you study in video games next. It's like that is it just didn't feel so nobody of my generation everybody in my generation I mean almost without exception if you were studying computer science. In the 1980 s in the 1990 s it's because it was speaking to you at a deep level fast forward to the to 14020's sound necessari true you got mom and dad saying hey you know computer science is where it's at and we've had many more people a bit in part because we have many more people in computer science which is a great thing but many more people who are like actually I'm not that into this.
31:55.28
lauraklein
Is the.
31:56.95
Bryan Cantrill
Even though, like yeah I got a computer science degree from a top institution I went to work for a fang for 7 years and now I'm realizing like I'm not happy and oxide's not going to make me happy. It's it's like great.
32:06.76
lauraklein
yeah yeah I in the 90 s I went to night school and learned how to program and c which I just want to say that shows some goddamn dedication that is not a thing people do for fun. Go take you know what.
32:16.13
Bryan Cantrill
Um, um, absolutely yeah, that that's right, That's right right? No and I think and and that's you know it's it speaks to character and that's the thing that you.
32:26.50
lauraklein
Wasn't fun. Ah.
32:34.46
Bryan Cantrill
I Mean Ultimately, what people should be trying to assess in an interview process is character and they don't and then and then they complain when the other thing I Oh my God if I I never want to hear in my life. We hire fast and fire fast because it's like no that wrong.
32:46.71
lauraklein
Us.
32:51.91
Bryan Cantrill
None of all what you're saying is that you hire very poorly. Um, but I also have never seen fire quote unquote fire fast work. Um, and and by the way I don't think I'd want to work in an organization where it even was effective because it means you're constantly like offing people who make a mistake.
33:05.44
lauraklein
And you've you've brought somebody in you've spent some time and resources and effort onboarding them teaching them things and suddenly you have this person who you don't think is very good who you are now who now knows a whole bunch about your company.
33:15.48
Bryan Cantrill
Yes.

(02:16):
33:24.34
lauraklein
You're just going to say like no no thanks like that. It's It's unfair to you. It's unfair to the the person who you know may have left another job to come to you like now.
33:25.70
Bryan Cantrill
Um, yeah.
33:30.69
Bryan Cantrill
And I also think like whenever that's happening like hey who's figuring out like ah how did the Miss Hire get here because that's not their fault like they they didn't hire themselves so who hired them and who screwed that up and like let's go take that apart.
33:43.74
lauraklein
It's It's interesting because you know you mentioned that like a lot of the things that you're doing wouldn't necessarily and wouldn't necessarily work for all companies which I I do agree with I think that um there there are some things that for you know, larger companies or for different kinds of companies like you would want to go with the different. Approach which is totally reasonable. Um, but I think the thing that you did that would work for all companies is what you just said which is that like who is post-morteming bad choices and I mean and you can tell that again X engineer for me like who is post-morteming bad choices.
34:10.52
Bryan Cantrill
Totally yep.
34:20.00
lauraklein
And saying Okay, what was systemically wrong. How do we fix that and iterating and improve and at least improving your process to get it to the point where you're not just going through the same motions over and over and over and you know, kind of getting lucky sometimes you know.
34:34.24
Bryan Cantrill
Yes, That's right and I think that like and I Also think that while postmortem is great. The only postmortem on a Miss Hire I ever did was the worst hire of my life and I I It was a postmortem that was done out of need and need for group Catharsis. It's like it's not Because. You have a someone that you're that you're managing out of an organization like the last thing people want to do is get in a room and talk about how this person got hired because for ah for a bunch of reasons right? and they um so I think it's it's important to get hiring right at the outset I Do believe that that.
34:57.44
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
35:10.84
Bryan Cantrill
Asking people to do things in writing and and ask these or answer these very basic I Love basic open ended questions like when have you been happiest and why is a super basic question but it's a hard one. In fact I actually had an engineer who I was I.
35:16.87
lauraklein
Ah.
35:22.73
lauraklein
Yeah.
35:28.92
Bryan Cantrill
Was encouraging to apply to oxide but obviously getting going on the materials I was talking to. He's like oh man, these materials are just killing me man. This is like really tough and I'm like wait a minute like what's so to. Okay I'm not trying to put anyone into excruciating pain. What's tough is like dude some of these questions are crazy like.
35:37.46
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
35:46.86
Bryan Cantrill
When have I been happiest and why like oh my god I I like them like okay that feels like 1 that that that feels like when you should be able to answer. But it's a hard question. It's a really hard question.
35:54.42
lauraklein
It is it is and it's yeah it it is it really is especially since you know like it is still work right? Like there's a reason they pay us to show up and um, you know like you can be very happy in a situation and not have it be perfect and like there's could be lots of but.
36:03.30
Bryan Cantrill
Yeah, that's right.
36:13.69
lauraklein
Really examining the okay well what were the things that made this thing so much better than this other thing is I think a useful exercise though I do have I do have 1 question that I do do and ask um is there any concern that by ah, presenting it in written format that you know there is.
36:18.99
Bryan Cantrill
Yes.
36:32.34
lauraklein
You know bias against people who just aren't great writers or is that something that you just feel like being great. Writers is just important to us and in him man.
36:38.71
Bryan Cantrill
I Mean for sure the lot it definitely I think that it it in that it does I mean it it because it is all written. It does bias towards towards great writers for sure. Um.
36:47.76
lauraklein
The sir.

(02:37):
36:53.67
Bryan Cantrill
So part of the reason I actually I bet I think it reflects the fact that any hiring process is going to have bias right? and it's like so yeah and and so so I mean I think the way to phrase it is this is that you are either going to be biased towards the written word.
36:56.89
lauraklein
Yeah, no I was I just say I'm a much better writer than talker. Um, and so I'm like oh great bias toward me. But yeah.
37:13.33
Bryan Cantrill
Or you're going to be biased towards how 1 handles themselves in a conversation because that's what you're selecting for in a traditional interview process is the ability to hold the conversation. So really, the the idea that like oh I'm not selecting for a bias. It's like no you are so the question is which which is a closer analog.
37:19.87
lauraklein
It's the great point.
37:32.99
Bryan Cantrill
To what the how the work is actually done and I feel that so there are a couple reasons that that I've got very strong bias towards writing one is I mean just like in in college I Love to take home exams right? because take home exams where they take the anxiety.
37:44.44
lauraklein
Um, of the.
37:50.77
Bryan Cantrill
Out of it the time-based anxiety out of it and it's like you can do on as well on this as you want to do because you get as much time and candidates get as much time to work on their materials as they want and if they really really really want to work with work for oxide. They can put a lot of time into it and and they can have. Other people review it you know, give them feedback improve the writing you know there's lots of ways to like improve it if I bomb an interview I can't go to my friend who's a great interviewer and get their perspective and then come back and make the interview better. But if I write something down I'm like oh God this is like terrible.
38:22.49
lauraklein
Yeah, but.
38:28.64
Bryan Cantrill
I'm Goingnna give it to my spouse and have them read it I'm Goingnna give it to you know? So and I'm gonna get their perspective on its that that's great. You know it's like you want to encourage that kind of dedication to iteratively improving work that to me is really important if you are I mean that.
38:33.92
lauraklein
Now.
38:44.83
Bryan Cantrill
1 thing I'm definitely sensitive about if you're in english as a second language speaker. This gives you an opportunity to review the grammar right? that you know you got an opportunity you got a grammar checker one that you don't have in an interview and it's like.
38:51.34
lauraklein
Yeah, wait.
38:59.19
lauraklein
I was actually wondering it was like does this bias against people who are English as a second language and I think you're right I think it actually may help because there's going to be some bias there in speaking as well. So yeah.
39:09.30
Bryan Cantrill
Yeah I mean I think it it definitely. Ah, certainly I have ah had yeah Esl folks be very excited that they've got a written process I mean it's It's really interesting actually to find the people who are really jazzed about our process. And they are the people who have historically been just my observation the most underserved the most the the folks who have and people you know sometimes they call it out explicitly in the material sometimes they call it out in in conversation but the ability because what we all want at the end of the day is a fair shot and.
39:44.10
lauraklein
Is here. Yeah in the.
39:47.80
Bryan Cantrill
We want to be fairly we know and especially at oxide where we've got far more people applying to the company than we've got the ability to accommodate right? now we can accommodate everybody but we're all grownups people can hear that they understand that what they do want is like I want to know that I put my best game out on the field and you know I was just talking to a candidate. The other day who was like who applied to oxide as he called it a hail mary he's like I didn't think I had a shot but I it was speaking to me really deeply I've never felt this way about a job before and he poured his heart into the materials. And it showed you know and it's like and you got someone who is someone who I personally would we've got no overlap in social network it's it's not someone that I would work with and but kindred spirits and it was great to like have that come through in the materials. That heart that character that resilience come through in in the material. So it's yes, ah, you know you're trading some None bias with some set of biases for another but boy I'll take the the and also like the the other thing I would hasten add just on that point is like just remind the how are we deciding who we interview again. Like oh we're looking at the resume. Okay I got it like we really want to talk about biases in a resume I mean so really, what we're asking about is like which of these has more biases a resume or asking people questions about what they've done and what's important to them and it's like well I you know, kind of know and we also ask people for resume. So I should say we we ask people. But.
41:03.61
lauraklein
Yeah.
41:19.41
lauraklein
Sure but sure. But I mean it's balanced out for it. So if it does look a little you know, weird or unusual or atypical that there are reasons for that and I think that is that is always nice. Yeah.
41:23.16
Bryan Cantrill
But is about yeah.
41:28.89
Bryan Cantrill
Yes, and also that allows you like? yeah actually it allows you to explain some of those reasons like sometimes you know, ah you'll see a short stop and you'll wonder like what's going on with a short stop and it's amazing where people will explain like hey you know I was in this company and they were bought or like it wasn't what it was advertised I mean it's like people be very can it gives them an opportunity to be candid about that.
41:46.63
lauraklein
You know I had one person. Um, who had a six month gap on her resume and on it. She just wrote stone cold chillin and I'm like you know what I respect that but but that is fantastic.

(02:58):
41:48.71
Bryan Cantrill
Um, it's in there in their materials.
41:57.34
Bryan Cantrill
Um, right, It's good. Yeah.
42:02.34
lauraklein
Yes I agree and I applaud I applaud that. Ah.
42:03.81
Bryan Cantrill
well well I had some meltplied oxide who had taken a break and was very candid about it like I was not ready for oxide eight months ago because I was trying to figure out what was next what was important to me I didn't know it was important to me I just come out of this work environment that was terrible.
42:11.41
lauraklein
Yeah, with.
42:19.56
Bryan Cantrill
And I had been kind of spun around I didn't know what was important to me and I needed some real time to figure out what was important to me and I've decided that like this is what's important to me. Um, and you know hearing that out of a candidate.. It's like not only forget the gap being a red flag. The gap is now a tremendous asset this is like. This is a person who has really kind of considered this and is here for all of the right reasons.
42:40.14
lauraklein
Yeah, this is so this is phenomenal I can I feel like I could talk to you about this for like six more hours and like I shouldn't because I should be respectful of your time but I did have 1 last question which is um, you do this is is it the same sort of hiring process and questions for all the different roles.
42:46.90
Bryan Cantrill
Um, ten. Um, yeah.
42:59.95
lauraklein
I mean I know that like obviously the github The github is going to be different if it's a designer or you know? yeah.
43:00.20
Bryan Cantrill
That's a great mushroom. Totally And so I think what we are trying to figure out is it is what exactly that means so we are I think the thing that we ah as you ah so we didn't talk about at all about what oxide is doing taking a very big hard technical swing. Um on a very ambitious mission. So We are the majority of vast majority of the company are end Engineers So We definitely kind of that's where it came up on as we have made other hires though we've realized like no no wait a minute this works it works for product. It works for operations. It works for sales. It works for design. What the thing that you've got to change is the portfolio. So the portfolio does change and the you've got kind of the portfolio half and the questionnare half the questionnaire half is is effectively immutable like those questions we will be asking everyone for the life of oxide the portfolio does change the way we kind of come up with a portfolio I think it's always fun when you're kind of coming up with the portfolio. We ah. You either? if you' got someone in the company who you know my cofounder came up through sales So when it was time to do that None sales wreck he was really excited to write the portfolio questions and he wrotes some portfolio questions for sales and which is I mean I think are extraordinary. Um and they really get to the heart. And if folks have worked with folks in sales I mean it's very easy to kind of characterurize those in sales. But there is a huge spectrum of quality in sales and I might but my cofounder I'm I my cofounders best of the best Um, which I have always known but.
44:28.80
lauraklein
Oh yeah, absolutely.
44:38.98
Bryan Cantrill
Watching him develop these portfolio questions really gave me insight into what makes him so good and asking about you know, asking for detail about when you've understood a customer's need I mean it was really good questions and. That netted a terrific to you netted our None sales hire who's been absolutely Terrific. So when we go into a new domain if we've got the domain expertise in house we will write the the portfolio with them in mind if we don't we kind of think like all right? Who's the very best person that we know of in this domain. And we're not gonna hire them. They you know They't they're happy wherever they are um but let's go talk and by the way this is a little This is a little trick I don't think it's dirty I think it's very ah, very above forward, but it is a bit of a trick if you are talking to someone who you want to hire but can't is.
45:28.76
lauraklein
Um, yeah, it's a good one.
45:32.99
Bryan Cantrill
Is very helpful and also by the way you are also stress testing in existing relationship because they may be like actually you know I said I was happy at Apple but after having this conversation with you I think I might be ibson o but ah so it's very helpful to have those conversations we use those conversations to help inform.
45:38.25
lauraklein
Consistent Yeah and like technically.
45:52.65
Bryan Cantrill
What the portfolio should be and then work with that person who you know we know or whatever from like hey does this but does this portfolio something that you would be excited to apply for where you would say like hey someone is finally asking me about my work and that should be whatever you are in. Sales support operations product. What have you designed the portfolio based questions should be questions that feel uplifting and exciting and should feel like finally someone is asking me about my work as opposed to how I smell um and. That is that that should be exciting. Um, and you know so far So good. But as we grow the company as we tell folks here like we are an experiment like all companies and we are. It's going to be very interesting to see how I'm sure we will continue to evolve. Um as we move Forward. But. There are certain absolutes. The questionnare is definitely an absolute um and the the we will also use the questionnaire. Yeah that you the portfolio I believe is an absolute.. Yeah.
46:50.54
lauraklein
And the idea of the portfolio The like the idea which is which is not which is not I don't know that that's common outside of design and engineering frankly like yeah you know.
47:00.10
Bryan Cantrill
No I don't think it's col I don't think it's common outside of design I think it's common and design it. Yeah I will tell you the 2 domains in which it's common are design and journalism and so but but we may yeah marketing. Yeah, that'll be good. Actually I mean interesting to know that'll be. That's a good marketing i.
47:08.27
lauraklein
Ah, Journal of yeah writing samples. Yeah, any yeah marketing sometimes too with writing samples. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:20.10
Bryan Cantrill
I Have not seen it as much marketing. It's definitely true like Journalists know they've got their portfolio right? and they know designers know I've got my my portfolio they're going to show it when they when they go and so I don't think it is common in engineering I think it's certainly been very powerful for us and I don't think it's common at all in you know customer support.
47:23.31
lauraklein
Where to make discussion.

(03:19):
47:31.52
lauraklein
Interesting. So no.
47:38.21
Bryan Cantrill
Like what is what is the portfolio and customer support. Well, there actually is a portfolio to talk about customer support and let's go ask those questions.
47:43.63
lauraklein
Yeah, absolutely listen. This has been fascinating that is all the time we have for today plus a little so I really want to thank I want to I want to thank Brian for for joining us. Um I also want to thank everybody out there for listening and I want to wish everybody the best of luck with your own search whether it's for a new job or a new employee.
47:50.25
Bryan Cantrill
Um, yeah I I know.
48:02.59
lauraklein
Um, rooting for you.