August 2, 2022 • 33 mins
In this episode, Laura talks with Lisa Dusseault, CTO and Co-founder of Compaas about how to make sure you're making the right offer and paying people fairly for their work.
Drink Pairing: California Chardonnay (properly chilled!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
00:03.88
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are somehow both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein and please be advised that this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. My guest today is Lisa Duso she is the cto and co-founder of compass and Lisa and I are going to be talking about pay equity which is a thing that she is extremely well placed to tell us all about because of what compass does. So can you tell me a little bit about what that is just so I don't butcher. It. Okay.
00:39.32
Lisa Dusseault
Hi Laura ah yes, compass is a compensation platform for companies to be strategic about how they pay people and how different parts of compensation are fitting together pulling lots of context together. To helphr and decision makers.
01:49.74
lauraklein
So What you're saying is that when I try to hire somebody I don't have to base how much I'm paying them on um chicken entrails and guesswork you're saying that there's actually software that can help me figure out the right about to pay people and that maybe. More of us should be doing things like that.
01:55.40
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, it's a really arcane area. Many people don't know that their company has a head of total rewards in it or what their job is, but it is an an entire person if not None and their job is complicated. A lot of things to know and jargon and all of its own stuff as as. Probably isn't surprising once you think about it.
03:14.70
lauraklein
It's It's actually really good to know that because I think that I would say that that is um that is true and also somehow Optimistic. Um I know that at big companies right? They have a whole team of people who are probably figuring all this stuff out and they have all sorts of software and Surveys and stuff to figure this out and a lot of smaller companies that I've. Met are a little kind of we kind of pay people. Whatever we can get away with which is less good I would I would argue. Um, so ah, but your your software actually helps companies What what size companies do this like what? what are you.
03:50.40
Lisa Dusseault
Enterprise customers. So yeah None employees for starters.
04:26.82
lauraklein
Focused on mostly? yeah. Yeah, so the companies are actually starting to think about this and don't want things to be why? Why do why? Tell me why I should actually care about this I mean I know why I care about it. But why should why should other people care about it.
04:24.26
Lisa Dusseault
Well, there's the legal reasons. There's the retention reasons and then there's the less selfish um altruism reasons. Um.
05:20.24
lauraklein
All right? Let's talk about the legal reasons first because I just want to make sure that everybody gets those you know in case they have to and you know case they skip out of the end of the podcast. Let's talk about why it's illegal for you not to care about it.
05:09.14
Lisa Dusseault
There are more and more regulations these days in the us these are often happening on a state by state basis with California's Fa pay fair pay act a few years ago um and most recently New York state came out with laws that require. Pay ranges in job postings which I hope we'll get into a little bit more because this is recent and affects people's hiring practices quite deeply and the reason why these laws require companies to state their pay ranges on request or put them in the job postings. Um, and the reason why this is being done in countries throughout the rest of the world also is because it encourages fairness in in pay it puts people on an equal footing for finding for finding out what's possible and reduces the impact of negotiating or prior pay on. What somebody will get paid in their next job and all that increases the equity across different types of people.
07:46.12
lauraklein
Oh yeah, no I remember when it was like you know hey so what did you make in your last job and you had to tell them and then if you happened to not negotiate your very None job out of college or wherever you were. You could be screwed for 30 years this
(00:32):
07:42.16
Lisa Dusseault
Yep.
08:21.14
lauraklein
I'm glad glad that we're ah we're we're addressing some of that because ah, that was that was unfair. Let's say to ah a large group of folks. Um, and often folks who don't get rewarded for for negotiating upfront. Um, talk to me a little bit about how those pay bands. Actually get set you mentioned having to actually put the pay bands into ah into the job hostings which again it's nice keeps them keeps people from wasting their time. How how do those get set I mean I wasn't joking about it being kind of arcane and like it sell seems like magic.
08:56.42
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, well, um, as of the last few years companies of all sizes start to access pay data if they don't get it from one of the large vendors they get benchmark industry. What? ah other companies pay data from their investors or from friends or from. Free online sites that will tell you what Google pays a particular level of employee or um, what other startups pay so people are now getting people are now routinely getting data to to support putting telling salary ranges to candidates and putting that into. Um. Job postings which means that they're not relying as much on what the candidate asks for which is already a great start even if the sources of data are not great at least it's more fair.
11:07.82
lauraklein
Yeah I know that's interesting because it's There's the the sort of fairness across companies and then there's the fairness within the companies which we'll we'll talk about in a minute. Um, it is interesting that you mentioned that even if the sources aren't great. Um.
10:51.72
Lisa Dusseault
3
11:40.14
lauraklein
Um, assuming there's some that are a lot better than others.
11:07.30
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, the best sources are of course you know the pro companies that know exactly how to charge a lot for this and and have you come back to it over and over again and they will advertise sometimes None of jobs Benchmarked. Um. That is probably overkill I I think that we're going to see um some pullback from that because it's not very strategic to just look up your exact job title and say oh, That's what we're paying I Guess that's decide letting the market decide your entire pay strategy I don't advise that I can buy.
12:50.82
lauraklein
Mm.
12:19.94
Lisa Dusseault
Know.
12:56.30
lauraklein
Talk about talk about that. What is why? why don't you advise that I mean I I strongly advise not just paying whatever Google pays because I mean most companies would be out of business if they tried that. Ah.
12:41.56
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Um, it's a very common approach to um set a target None percentile of what the market pays for your size company which if you're not the size of Google is already a lot less than what Google pays but you're still.
(00:54):
13:37.22
lauraklein
And the.
13:18.70
Lisa Dusseault
Not being very strategic making a decision purely on that basis because now everybody in your in your company whether they're in a key function or not a key function is getting paid at least their target will be None percentile of what the market pays in some companies high quality marketing is super important. Maybe you should have the best. Marketing people and have different levels or different pay ranges for marketing. Um, and in some companies your R and D is the most important and will and is where you need the the highest quality people and to be really competitive and recruiting.
14:54.26
lauraklein
I Mean this is absolutely the point where I where I try to put push and say that well obviously design is the most important thing so that should be None but the other ones you know, less. So So totally on board except for design which should be more. Ah. You don't have to agree with me on that I know that you're a Cto.
14:58.62
Lisa Dusseault
Well I would quibble with being able to pay people None percentile but that's just you know technical cribbles possibly.
15:42.60
lauraklein
Um, I mean it's not cause they're just not trying Lisa I mean possibly y you know, just just throw it out there all right? um top. Let's talk a little bit about because there's there's something else that's sort of interesting here is that like you know we don't pay all engineers or all designers or whatever that. The same amount of money. There's some leveling there that goes on and often that leveling goes on. You know when you're it's so funny because a lot of times you know they'll say well. What level do you want to hire this new designer at and every once in a while it's sort of like oh actually I'd like to hire somebody really you know, look like I'd love to hire an intern. Sometimes it's that other times it's more sort of like I would like the best possible designer that I could get for what we can afford because why wouldn't I but that's not true across the board. What how do you level people like that.
16:48.75
Lisa Dusseault
Right? And sometimes it doesn't help to be too picky when you're hiring for an exact expertise in an exact level at the same time Sometimes you can mix across your team and have ah a level of past a mix of past mix of levels and a mix of past experiences. And you can have somebody super experienced and they understand you know client design and somebody who's um, not so experienced but they're really strong in information design or vice versa and it'll you'll have um, you'll have a rich team for having all that stuff. But how do you retain that flexibility. In a world where you have to put pay ranges into seller into into job postings If your Hr department has decided to do that.
18:45.36
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question because sometimes you know I'm hiring for something I'm like well you know I could get somebody who's I mean I could take somebody who is more senior here. That's often true with um I mean I should say this like for engineering like you don't want a whole bunch of just engineering architects like they'll never get anything built. And you also don't want to you know, necessarily just a whole bunch of people fresh out of school because they'll get something built. But yeah, ah so ah, but how how do you deal with that in this world where now we have to like tell people and this job pays $200000 a year or whatever.
19:22.38
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Well none of all start by communicating about this with yourhr department when they ask you ah for a simple answer. Don't necessarily just give them the simple answer but talk about how could we hire? What's my minimum level I would hire at what's my maximum level I would hire at if it was really the right person. And ask your Hr department if they have ah an approach to this None approach might be to put multiple ranges into the job posting. That's a little risky because it might lead everybody who applies to to believe that they're best suited for the top paid None
21:03.00
lauraklein
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
20:35.42
Lisa Dusseault
Another one is to put up literally multiple postings put up So Junior designer put up senior designer and put up different ranges on them. Um, another option is to indicate what level that this job posting is designed for but say. Other levels may pay more may pay different ranges. Um and we may consider people of other other levels.
21:51.66
lauraklein
Oh that's interesting. That's that isn't it I kind of like that one because you're not surprising anybody then by you know, leveling them up or down but you're kind of leaving it open to say like you know if we find somebody who meets this job description. This is the salary.
(01:16):
21:50.94
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
22:30.56
lauraklein
But like we need to assess pretty quickly. You know? are you at that level or should we have the conversation about we actually don't think you're at that level. You might be a level down or Wow We think you're actually a level up and in order to get you. We would like to pay you more I. Done that I've leveled people up during portfolio reviews like oh okay, you're a sure. Wow Yeah, you're not midlevel. Are you Okay, great I Still want to hire you.
22:50.84
Lisa Dusseault
Yes, and and that's exactly None of the things you should be doing especially if you think you're going to want to close a candidate then your interview focus shifts. Not only to hey we want to convince you to come work for us. But also let's really get into the nitty and gritty of what level you are at and whether you're. Taking on lead responsibilities if you join us or just want to be left alone because that matters for what pay range. We put you in.
24:15.32
lauraklein
Yeah, no, that's a great point. So the negotiation stops being so much about like you know, guess the number guess the smallest number that I can pay to to get you and becomes more about no let's figure out where you actually fit in the company.
24:10.94
Lisa Dusseault
Which I love um I hated negotiation stuff when it was about None person to name a number loses or yes, try to mind read what they were thinking of and and try to name something high in their range but not impossible and not piss them off that is that is silly games that I do not want to play anymore.
25:22.12
lauraklein
Yes, my my my salary demands are a million dollars a year or best offer. Ah.
24:50.72
Lisa Dusseault
Um, right right? and I don't want to play those games as a candidate or as a hiring manager.
25:42.78
lauraklein
Yeah, no I Yeah and I it's those games are frustrating even on the other end I've been a hiring manager and had people request lower than the band and I just want to shake them and Say. No Stop. It don't give me that option. But.
25:42.20
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Well when you are the hiring manager tell them we won't be paying you that low. Yeah.
26:28.14
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, no I and I always did I Just always worry I always worry, not every not everybody is you know it's the company's look. It's the company's money. Ah.
26:10.60
Lisa Dusseault
But 1 important thing to note is that psychologically people ratchet upward and not downward. So if you post a junior role and then tell people actually you're better than junior you're mid-career or you're senior. Um, and we'll treat you accordingly.
(01:38):
26:58.82
lauraklein
Interesting.
26:50.20
Lisa Dusseault
Super happy if they're applying for a role and it says Junior or senior they think they're senior and you say actually you're on the junior side and we'd be paying you ah appropriate to that people don't like to hear that.
27:45.98
lauraklein
No I wouldn't want to hear it I mean psychologically that's just that That's not great. Um.
27:28.70
Lisa Dusseault
Similarly with ranges if you publish your entire range people are going to get fixated in the mid to high part of that range. There's no law that says you have to put your entire range that you pay existing employees into the job Posting. You can put the lower half of the. Range you put you pay existing employees as the range you pay New hires.
28:50.60
lauraklein
That's fascinating I hadn't thought about that you can Obviously you can't post just the higher range that feels like that would be super illegal.
28:27.38
Lisa Dusseault
You can You can post whatever range you like as long as you're consistent at hiring people into that range. But if you post the higher end of your actual band then your existing designer who's paid in the low end of that band is going to be sad when they see that job posting.
29:15.14
lauraklein
Um, and.
29:33.60
lauraklein
I mean Sad is the best possible outcome for that I would be but knocking on your door with a pitchfork and a torch. So ah, okay, now that's interesting. So it's it's not the the rule is that you whatever you post.
29:16.82
Lisa Dusseault
Again.
30:10.34
lauraklein
You have to hire within that range. Um, unless you up level the person or down level them if you've got something in there. That's acceptable.
29:51.50
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, there's probably other legal dodges too. But this is all I feel within the moral high ground of trying to do right by people and make them all happy your existing employees as well as new hires.
(02:00):
30:55.40
lauraklein
Yeah, yet, no to be clear I wasn't looking for like so legally what exactly can I get away with ah although you know it's always kind of nice to know just just in case. Um talk to me a little bit though about because you mentioned this a couple times and I I think it's an interesting thing to bring up talk to me a little bit about.
30:27.52
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, right.
31:32.18
lauraklein
What it means when you're talking about your existing team because hiring folks especially in you know the market the way it's been in the last I don't know year. Um, hiring folks has an impact on your existing team too with salaries.
31:23.40
Lisa Dusseault
Yes, and having a decent compensation strategy matters for your existing team. So so much when we talked about the legal reasons for doing this and having a good effort towards it and I think that's dwarfed by the retention reasons if you're just talking about. Reasons that the companies stakeholders you know immoral stakeholders will understand ah retention is still a huge one. The cost to replace somebody who leaves before you want them to leave is enormous. It.
32:43.80
lauraklein
Hey, ah.
32:31.20
Lisa Dusseault
Almost always dwarfs the difference in pay that you could have made up.
33:13.52
lauraklein
Yeah, and know every time I'm I'm advocating for a bigger raise for somebody I Just call them a flight risk and they're only a flight risk. Let me let me point out because I will tell them to flight if they don't get the race ah like no, they should be making this much money and if they're not then they should absolutely leave and I will tell them that um.
32:58.72
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
33:13.32
Lisa Dusseault
But if the company has a process for raising their pay range when they want to raise what they offer new employees and raising people salaries when their pay rate range also goes up and.
33:52.28
lauraklein
But yeah.
33:44.81
Lisa Dusseault
Bringing people up within their pay range when they you know have a good review and they're doing a bunch of races for the company then people don't have to play those games of calling themselves or you know hinting at being a flight risk or having a manager like you who will just go to bat.
(02:22):
34:50.60
lauraklein
Ah, who will just just say that you're a flight risk just too will just say I mean in fairness they should be so I'm not lying I'm just encouraging them to recognize their value.
34:22.52
Lisa Dusseault
Just say that.
34:40.58
Lisa Dusseault
Yep. A prediction backed up by actions you can take.
35:26.60
lauraklein
You know there you go I Love it. Um, So I think the thing that makes me a little nervous I'll be honest is when we do and I've kind of seen this when we do talk about like moving people up or down in levels. Especially when we're just assessing them. Um. You know as as new hires and trying to like figure out where do they sit amongst you know the other hundred designers or Thousand Engineers or whatever it is like that's that's hard right? like and if I can just level them up or down.
35:51.40
Lisa Dusseault
Are.
36:38.80
lauraklein
How how do I do that more fairly.
36:10.60
Lisa Dusseault
It's a lot of work to do fairly to do fairly and properly and thoroughly so generally a rubric is the name for a whole set of descriptions of different skills and responsibilities across a number of different job types.
36:52.24
lauraklein
She.
36:45.88
Lisa Dusseault
That describe what level to put somebody at since I'm most familiar with engineering rubrics and because you can get these you can you can find these in odd corners of the internet where companies have posted their engineering job. Rubrics Engineers are crazy. They'll post anything. They'll open source anything.
37:51.56
lauraklein
They They also like quantifying things very much. Ah.
37:23.28
Lisa Dusseault
And here's and here's like quantifying and having processes and rules for this crazy fuzzy human stuff. But it's not overboard in this case, it's a really good idea and often the rest of the company can benefit from taking advantage of this work or following this example, if the engineering team is leading the way. Um, so the rubric has things like a general job family. It's not going to have big differences between a python engineer and a Java engineer or a on a Ux designer versus a graphic designer but it will have within a big family like engineering or design. Um, differences in responsibility and scope. So a junior engineer's responsibility and scope are described as things like um needs to take time to learn new things in the course of their job ah needs guidance from a manager on how to execute some tasks but not all tasks. Can. Execute um, can can implement new functions without guidance um needs help in implementing new architectural components um works within their own team and with design.
(02:44):
40:12.50
lauraklein
E.
39:51.20
Lisa Dusseault
Um, whereas you start to get into senior or lead engineering stuff your scope and responsibility all shift towards can lead other people can invent new architecture can guide other engineers can implement entire new sections of the architecture. Not only without guidance but guiding other people works across the company works with teams in marketing on ah timing and strategy works with teams in ops on how the new architecture is going to be deployed and and. Or at the highest levels you know works with the board works with the c-suite.
41:43.76
lauraklein
It's It's funny because on all the like technical roles and I kind of consider design and engineering to be sort of technical in their own ways I Always laugh that like at the at the very beginning. It's like less about the you know being really great. Technically you know more about sort of your ability to learn. And then it's like that mid-level and that upper level. It's like really like really good technically like just really good technical skills and then as you get even higher up much less about that because way more about the people all over Again. It's like oh. God So hard when you're like no but I just really want to be very good technically and I don't want to do I Never want to make a powerpoint deck.
42:16.34
Lisa Dusseault
Yep, right.
42:32.84
Lisa Dusseault
Although note that I didn't say anything about people management in the responsibility. Um I personally think it's important and I'll put a plug in here for having high- level engineering individual contributor roles that don't require people who are going to be bad managers to have to be bad managers to.
43:10.72
lauraklein
Now.
43:08.56
Lisa Dusseault
Be considered a ah leader in their company.
43:45.80
lauraklein
I hundred I could not agree with you more on that and figuring out like None of these days I need to do a podcast with folks about how to assess for actual like managerial ability versus craft or technical skill. Um because I I often think that we. We do assessments like that entirely wrong? Um, and we don't end up with people who are great managers. Even if we have you know a whole management track. That's different podcast though. But definitely agree that you should have separate rubrics for them. That's that is an excellent point.
44:20.62
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
45:01.48
lauraklein
Um, what like having a good rubric. What's that What's that going to do for a company like why? Why does that help sure whoa.
44:35.46
Lisa Dusseault
Well, it helps in pay Equity. There's a bunch of yes, there's a bunch of things I didn't mention in it like um skills communication skills can be part of your rubric collaboration skills can be part of your rubric ah professionalism and that certainly in the lower levels but you know also in the. Well is it be good if your vps or professional could behave professionally also to be honest.
(03:06):
45:53.36
lauraklein
I mean it limits my Upward mobility. But no I get it? Yeah, ah sure it would be nice. Ah.
45:34.66
Lisa Dusseault
Yep and having having that written down. Also again, it changes this whole negotiation stuff from I Want to raise? Well you're not getting a raise or okay I guess I can get you a raise. How much do you need it changes it all from that to um am I ready to be promoted. Do you? My manager think I'm ready to be promoted what parts of this rubric. Do you think I need work On. It can get a little transactional even so but it's still a an improvement over just the arbitrary.
46:49.62
lauraklein
And.
46:42.62
Lisa Dusseault
Give somebody a raise when they start to make noise.
47:18.64
lauraklein
Yeah, whoever asked for or um I would imagine that it also helps you at least a little bit assess. Those folks who are coming in when you're when you're doing the hiring that you're putting them as much as you can assess people that you haven't worked with on that rubric you at least have some. General Guideline of where they fit in the Organization. So It's not just whatever they ask for.
47:26.86
Lisa Dusseault
From the company's perspective done. Well this can help the company do even better at budgeting and forecasting and stuff because you now know, um, what your promotion rate is or you can you can learn that through your analytics and you can figure out how many people are likely to be promoted and what. Ranges they're likely going to have to be paid according to and estimate raises on something much better than just oh what? If we gave everybody None on average.
48:58.82
lauraklein
Yeah, well and 5% on average is I mean would be great in some years and in other years will absolutely lose you. All of the people are working for you because they can go someplace else and get 20% now um
48:49.38
Lisa Dusseault
Right? And and you don't want to give everybody 5% um not just based on performance but also based on who's already high in their range or who's low in their range.
49:48.14
lauraklein
Yeah, making sure that the folks who are doing the same job are making roughly the same amount of money. Um, we haven't really talked about location based pay vans. What do you? What do you think about that because I have strong opinions that I think are not widely shared.
49:31.72
Lisa Dusseault
Oh yeah, it's. And that goes right back to this um problem of having the salary the pay ranges in job postings making that extra tricky. So Your Hr department might already have a preference if they don't.
50:33.98
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
(03:28):
50:18.32
Lisa Dusseault
Probably you want to pressure them to put something in there that talks about location if it says remote. Okay then or hiring for a remote position by default. Um, then you probably want to say with your pay range along with this with the with the job. Not just that this is going to be a ui designer. Not. Just that they're going to be a senior ui designer and the range is appropriate to the senior level of candidate but also that it's appropriate to ah the baseline of remote work throughout the us for examplessuming you're posting jobs in the us. Because then if ah people come in and they say but I work in San Francisco or but I live in San Francisco you can say well, that's okay, we have a pay range adjustment for San Francisco your if your company hires it all in San Francisco as well as the rest of the country. You probably do have an adjustment for San Francisco it's just more common these days.
52:43.86
lauraklein
It's funny because I'm of course in the San Francisco bay area but I'm fully remote my joke my it's not even a joke that my saying is always that like look I might as well be a hologram. You're never going to see my feet ah like I don't I don't go into offices I am. Fully remote I could be anywhere but I do benefit from being from happening to be you know ten miles away from San Francisco which feels weird if I'm doing the same job as somebody else. Do you have opinions on that.
53:05.10
Lisa Dusseault
Christmas.
53:54.48
lauraklein
Are we seeing any changes now with now that like everything's remote. Do you have opinions Lisa do yeah, could you share those with us I Want to know.
53:19.80
Lisa Dusseault
Well have opinions Laura I have opinions. Laura yeah, all right? Um I'm glad that pay ranges are compressing across the country that the lowest of the low ranges are are coming up and up and closer to. The the highest of the high ranges even as ranges are going up everywhere. The lowest ones are coming up faster I'm happy about that because I want people to be paid. Well wherever they are and do well and I am sure when I look at how executives are paid that we could almost all afford to pay. Our regular workforce more. Um, that said I think it is fair. Fairness is difficult to quantify so I'll say it is fair depending on your definition of fair to pay people who spend less on housing and. Living a lower salary than people who have to pay more for housing and living.
55:57.80
lauraklein
Yeah, it's interesting I Guess when you're fully remote though like it's maybe I don't know maybe they should just be biased against people like me who've chosen to live in a stupid place. Um.
55:42.98
Lisa Dusseault
If there really is no benefit to the company of you living close to San Francisco then eventually I do think this will gradually like wash out and and the ranges will become even tighter but I'm not so sure there isn't some benefit. Not just from the company having you near San Francisco now because it's easier for you to come to important meetings or have a critical lunch date with somebody that is having trouble working with you and you want to get through that or ah, being in the same time zone and being available or. Having connections in the bay area having your past jobs be in the bay area having um, a really dense professional network that you that that helps you as an employee I think all of that stuff can sometimes count.
58:01.66
lauraklein
That's an interesting point that I thought the time zone thing I've definitely thought a lot about having um literally direct reports in I think 6 different time zones. Um some of which are actually mutually incompatible I cannot have calls with people in Tokyo and London at the same time just doesn't.
57:56.22
Lisa Dusseault
Help.
58:36.98
lauraklein
Doesn't work. No I'm not getting up at 2 am um but but I thought those were pie based things and which I was yeah.
58:06.96
Lisa Dusseault
I know I'm a better engineer for being able to go to PiBay easily for being able to go to pineinsula easily these python use interest group meetups I'm a better engineer for having met you in karate class.
(03:50):
59:14.40
lauraklein
Ah, oh yeah, we should ah we should say that the the way that we got to know each other was actually by just hitting each other weekly. Yeah yeah, let' took I mean a certain kind of connection.
58:46.90
Lisa Dusseault
Ah, best way to form a connection. Yeah um, and and being in the bay area for as long as I have on the one hand I've had to pay more to live here. Then if I'd stayed were in Canada but um, the connections I formed and the network I have and the people I can call on I can be hang out with somebody on the weekend and say Earl can you tell me something about this kind of statistical analysis and Earl. Real person. He'll tell me really good stuff.
01:00:37.54
lauraklein
that's that's ah that's a great point that that actually makes me feel a little bit better about paying people in certain areas a little differently you know and thinking about pay bands in that way because it's true I do have a I've got a real big tech network and I mean some of that is being 1000 years old and some of that is. Being a thousand years old in Silicon Valley ah which it does it. It absolutely helps. Um, well that's that's an interesting way of thinking about pay band so you may have actually changed my opinion which I mean happens rarely so you know gloat this is this is your time.
01:00:37.86
Lisa Dusseault
Now.
01:01:51.10
lauraklein
Well done. You do you have an opinion about what the hardest thing about hiring or getting hired is I'm sort of springing this on you out of nowhere but I like to ask people like what what? what makes this so hard.
01:01:38.36
Lisa Dusseault
Well in the end I think ah maybe it's because I'm an engineer and I think that technical problems are tractable I don't think the hard part is anything technical that you can apply analysis and data management and. Visualizations too. I Think the hard stuff is figuring out fit and fairly um, finding out if somebody is going to excel in their role when you've talked to them for. You know your entire company has talked to them for a total of 5 hours I try to but do better than this by intensely Checking. People's references and it's still not enough to figure that out and I try to revert every kind of Bias I might have when doing it.
01:03:26.54
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
01:03:23.60
Lisa Dusseault
Because figuring out fit we can look for people who are like us and that doesn't make it easier. It only makes it harder So I know that.
01:04:12.64
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, and not good like that's I don't want other God knows I don't want other people like me. Ah.
01:03:50.54
Lisa Dusseault
So I would say fit is the hardest and then when it's when the fit is not working and you're giving somebody every chance at the training they need and the accommodations they need and the time to get up to speed and the fit is still really not there. Fit for the person for the job or the job for the person how to move on from that successfully sometimes sometimes it becomes adversarial because it it can be hard for everybody to agree when there's not a not a fit solution but sometimes you can do it.
01:05:31.46
lauraklein
Yeah.
(04:12):
01:05:02.92
Lisa Dusseault
Gracefully. It's just super super hard.
01:05:40.68
lauraklein
Yeah, you're right I I tend to agree with you I think that is if not the hardest thing certainly one of the hardest things about about hiring is just making sure that it's the right person and the right job and that we all are going to be happy moving forward together and make it work. But.
01:05:38.16
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah I try to tell people a lot about the job when I interview them even demo a little bit here's what you'd be doing. You'd be doing this kind of thing and uploading this kind of data to this kind of site and cleaning up this kind of mess. Um.
01:06:22.38
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
01:06:12.76
Lisa Dusseault
I was recently hiring for a data engineer position which is why I talk about cleaning up messes h our data is so messy. Did you know that Laura.
01:06:53.76
lauraklein
There there you go oh good that all mix. What yeah know that all makes a lot of sense now that you tell me what you were deiring for um, no well thank you Lisa that was um, that's that's super helpful and that that is actually all the time that we have for today. Um I want to thank Lisa again for joining us.
01:06:33.80
Lisa Dusseault
Now.
01:07:32.36
lauraklein
I Also want to thank all of you out there for listening and and wish you all the best of luck with your own search whether it's for a new job or a new employee I've written for you.
00:03.88
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are somehow both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein and please be advised that this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. My guest today is Lisa Duso she is the cto and co-founder of compass and Lisa and I are going to be talking about pay equity which is a thing that she is extremely well placed to tell us all about because of what compass does. So can you tell me a little bit about what that is just so I don't butcher. It. Okay.
00:39.32
Lisa Dusseault
Hi Laura ah yes, compass is a compensation platform for companies to be strategic about how they pay people and how different parts of compensation are fitting together pulling lots of context together. To helphr and decision makers.
01:49.74
lauraklein
So What you're saying is that when I try to hire somebody I don't have to base how much I'm paying them on um chicken entrails and guesswork you're saying that there's actually software that can help me figure out the right about to pay people and that maybe. More of us should be doing things like that.
01:55.40
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, it's a really arcane area. Many people don't know that their company has a head of total rewards in it or what their job is, but it is an an entire person if not None and their job is complicated. A lot of things to know and jargon and all of its own stuff as as. Probably isn't surprising once you think about it.
03:14.70
lauraklein
It's It's actually really good to know that because I think that I would say that that is um that is true and also somehow Optimistic. Um I know that at big companies right? They have a whole team of people who are probably figuring all this stuff out and they have all sorts of software and Surveys and stuff to figure this out and a lot of smaller companies that I've. Met are a little kind of we kind of pay people. Whatever we can get away with which is less good I would I would argue. Um, so ah, but your your software actually helps companies What what size companies do this like what? what are you.
03:50.40
Lisa Dusseault
Enterprise customers. So yeah None employees for starters.
04:26.82
lauraklein
Focused on mostly? yeah. Yeah, so the companies are actually starting to think about this and don't want things to be why? Why do why? Tell me why I should actually care about this I mean I know why I care about it. But why should why should other people care about it.
04:24.26
Lisa Dusseault
Well, there's the legal reasons. There's the retention reasons and then there's the less selfish um altruism reasons. Um.
05:20.24
lauraklein
All right? Let's talk about the legal reasons first because I just want to make sure that everybody gets those you know in case they have to and you know case they skip out of the end of the podcast. Let's talk about why it's illegal for you not to care about it.
05:09.14
Lisa Dusseault
There are more and more regulations these days in the us these are often happening on a state by state basis with California's Fa pay fair pay act a few years ago um and most recently New York state came out with laws that require. Pay ranges in job postings which I hope we'll get into a little bit more because this is recent and affects people's hiring practices quite deeply and the reason why these laws require companies to state their pay ranges on request or put them in the job postings. Um, and the reason why this is being done in countries throughout the rest of the world also is because it encourages fairness in in pay it puts people on an equal footing for finding for finding out what's possible and reduces the impact of negotiating or prior pay on. What somebody will get paid in their next job and all that increases the equity across different types of people.
07:46.12
lauraklein
Oh yeah, no I remember when it was like you know hey so what did you make in your last job and you had to tell them and then if you happened to not negotiate your very None job out of college or wherever you were. You could be screwed for 30 years this
(00:32):
07:42.16
Lisa Dusseault
Yep.
08:21.14
lauraklein
I'm glad glad that we're ah we're we're addressing some of that because ah, that was that was unfair. Let's say to ah a large group of folks. Um, and often folks who don't get rewarded for for negotiating upfront. Um, talk to me a little bit about how those pay bands. Actually get set you mentioned having to actually put the pay bands into ah into the job hostings which again it's nice keeps them keeps people from wasting their time. How how do those get set I mean I wasn't joking about it being kind of arcane and like it sell seems like magic.
08:56.42
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, well, um, as of the last few years companies of all sizes start to access pay data if they don't get it from one of the large vendors they get benchmark industry. What? ah other companies pay data from their investors or from friends or from. Free online sites that will tell you what Google pays a particular level of employee or um, what other startups pay so people are now getting people are now routinely getting data to to support putting telling salary ranges to candidates and putting that into. Um. Job postings which means that they're not relying as much on what the candidate asks for which is already a great start even if the sources of data are not great at least it's more fair.
11:07.82
lauraklein
Yeah I know that's interesting because it's There's the the sort of fairness across companies and then there's the fairness within the companies which we'll we'll talk about in a minute. Um, it is interesting that you mentioned that even if the sources aren't great. Um.
10:51.72
Lisa Dusseault
3
11:40.14
lauraklein
Um, assuming there's some that are a lot better than others.
11:07.30
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, the best sources are of course you know the pro companies that know exactly how to charge a lot for this and and have you come back to it over and over again and they will advertise sometimes None of jobs Benchmarked. Um. That is probably overkill I I think that we're going to see um some pullback from that because it's not very strategic to just look up your exact job title and say oh, That's what we're paying I Guess that's decide letting the market decide your entire pay strategy I don't advise that I can buy.
12:50.82
lauraklein
Mm.
12:19.94
Lisa Dusseault
Know.
12:56.30
lauraklein
Talk about talk about that. What is why? why don't you advise that I mean I I strongly advise not just paying whatever Google pays because I mean most companies would be out of business if they tried that. Ah.
12:41.56
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Um, it's a very common approach to um set a target None percentile of what the market pays for your size company which if you're not the size of Google is already a lot less than what Google pays but you're still.
(00:54):
13:37.22
lauraklein
And the.
13:18.70
Lisa Dusseault
Not being very strategic making a decision purely on that basis because now everybody in your in your company whether they're in a key function or not a key function is getting paid at least their target will be None percentile of what the market pays in some companies high quality marketing is super important. Maybe you should have the best. Marketing people and have different levels or different pay ranges for marketing. Um, and in some companies your R and D is the most important and will and is where you need the the highest quality people and to be really competitive and recruiting.
14:54.26
lauraklein
I Mean this is absolutely the point where I where I try to put push and say that well obviously design is the most important thing so that should be None but the other ones you know, less. So So totally on board except for design which should be more. Ah. You don't have to agree with me on that I know that you're a Cto.
14:58.62
Lisa Dusseault
Well I would quibble with being able to pay people None percentile but that's just you know technical cribbles possibly.
15:42.60
lauraklein
Um, I mean it's not cause they're just not trying Lisa I mean possibly y you know, just just throw it out there all right? um top. Let's talk a little bit about because there's there's something else that's sort of interesting here is that like you know we don't pay all engineers or all designers or whatever that. The same amount of money. There's some leveling there that goes on and often that leveling goes on. You know when you're it's so funny because a lot of times you know they'll say well. What level do you want to hire this new designer at and every once in a while it's sort of like oh actually I'd like to hire somebody really you know, look like I'd love to hire an intern. Sometimes it's that other times it's more sort of like I would like the best possible designer that I could get for what we can afford because why wouldn't I but that's not true across the board. What how do you level people like that.
16:48.75
Lisa Dusseault
Right? And sometimes it doesn't help to be too picky when you're hiring for an exact expertise in an exact level at the same time Sometimes you can mix across your team and have ah a level of past a mix of past mix of levels and a mix of past experiences. And you can have somebody super experienced and they understand you know client design and somebody who's um, not so experienced but they're really strong in information design or vice versa and it'll you'll have um, you'll have a rich team for having all that stuff. But how do you retain that flexibility. In a world where you have to put pay ranges into seller into into job postings If your Hr department has decided to do that.
18:45.36
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question because sometimes you know I'm hiring for something I'm like well you know I could get somebody who's I mean I could take somebody who is more senior here. That's often true with um I mean I should say this like for engineering like you don't want a whole bunch of just engineering architects like they'll never get anything built. And you also don't want to you know, necessarily just a whole bunch of people fresh out of school because they'll get something built. But yeah, ah so ah, but how how do you deal with that in this world where now we have to like tell people and this job pays $200000 a year or whatever.
19:22.38
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Well none of all start by communicating about this with yourhr department when they ask you ah for a simple answer. Don't necessarily just give them the simple answer but talk about how could we hire? What's my minimum level I would hire at what's my maximum level I would hire at if it was really the right person. And ask your Hr department if they have ah an approach to this None approach might be to put multiple ranges into the job posting. That's a little risky because it might lead everybody who applies to to believe that they're best suited for the top paid None
21:03.00
lauraklein
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
20:35.42
Lisa Dusseault
Another one is to put up literally multiple postings put up So Junior designer put up senior designer and put up different ranges on them. Um, another option is to indicate what level that this job posting is designed for but say. Other levels may pay more may pay different ranges. Um and we may consider people of other other levels.
21:51.66
lauraklein
Oh that's interesting. That's that isn't it I kind of like that one because you're not surprising anybody then by you know, leveling them up or down but you're kind of leaving it open to say like you know if we find somebody who meets this job description. This is the salary.
(01:16):
21:50.94
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
22:30.56
lauraklein
But like we need to assess pretty quickly. You know? are you at that level or should we have the conversation about we actually don't think you're at that level. You might be a level down or Wow We think you're actually a level up and in order to get you. We would like to pay you more I. Done that I've leveled people up during portfolio reviews like oh okay, you're a sure. Wow Yeah, you're not midlevel. Are you Okay, great I Still want to hire you.
22:50.84
Lisa Dusseault
Yes, and and that's exactly None of the things you should be doing especially if you think you're going to want to close a candidate then your interview focus shifts. Not only to hey we want to convince you to come work for us. But also let's really get into the nitty and gritty of what level you are at and whether you're. Taking on lead responsibilities if you join us or just want to be left alone because that matters for what pay range. We put you in.
24:15.32
lauraklein
Yeah, no, that's a great point. So the negotiation stops being so much about like you know, guess the number guess the smallest number that I can pay to to get you and becomes more about no let's figure out where you actually fit in the company.
24:10.94
Lisa Dusseault
Which I love um I hated negotiation stuff when it was about None person to name a number loses or yes, try to mind read what they were thinking of and and try to name something high in their range but not impossible and not piss them off that is that is silly games that I do not want to play anymore.
25:22.12
lauraklein
Yes, my my my salary demands are a million dollars a year or best offer. Ah.
24:50.72
Lisa Dusseault
Um, right right? and I don't want to play those games as a candidate or as a hiring manager.
25:42.78
lauraklein
Yeah, no I Yeah and I it's those games are frustrating even on the other end I've been a hiring manager and had people request lower than the band and I just want to shake them and Say. No Stop. It don't give me that option. But.
25:42.20
Lisa Dusseault
Right? Well when you are the hiring manager tell them we won't be paying you that low. Yeah.
26:28.14
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, no I and I always did I Just always worry I always worry, not every not everybody is you know it's the company's look. It's the company's money. Ah.
26:10.60
Lisa Dusseault
But 1 important thing to note is that psychologically people ratchet upward and not downward. So if you post a junior role and then tell people actually you're better than junior you're mid-career or you're senior. Um, and we'll treat you accordingly.
(01:38):
26:58.82
lauraklein
Interesting.
26:50.20
Lisa Dusseault
Super happy if they're applying for a role and it says Junior or senior they think they're senior and you say actually you're on the junior side and we'd be paying you ah appropriate to that people don't like to hear that.
27:45.98
lauraklein
No I wouldn't want to hear it I mean psychologically that's just that That's not great. Um.
27:28.70
Lisa Dusseault
Similarly with ranges if you publish your entire range people are going to get fixated in the mid to high part of that range. There's no law that says you have to put your entire range that you pay existing employees into the job Posting. You can put the lower half of the. Range you put you pay existing employees as the range you pay New hires.
28:50.60
lauraklein
That's fascinating I hadn't thought about that you can Obviously you can't post just the higher range that feels like that would be super illegal.
28:27.38
Lisa Dusseault
You can You can post whatever range you like as long as you're consistent at hiring people into that range. But if you post the higher end of your actual band then your existing designer who's paid in the low end of that band is going to be sad when they see that job posting.
29:15.14
lauraklein
Um, and.
29:33.60
lauraklein
I mean Sad is the best possible outcome for that I would be but knocking on your door with a pitchfork and a torch. So ah, okay, now that's interesting. So it's it's not the the rule is that you whatever you post.
29:16.82
Lisa Dusseault
Again.
30:10.34
lauraklein
You have to hire within that range. Um, unless you up level the person or down level them if you've got something in there. That's acceptable.
29:51.50
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, there's probably other legal dodges too. But this is all I feel within the moral high ground of trying to do right by people and make them all happy your existing employees as well as new hires.
(02:00):
30:55.40
lauraklein
Yeah, yet, no to be clear I wasn't looking for like so legally what exactly can I get away with ah although you know it's always kind of nice to know just just in case. Um talk to me a little bit though about because you mentioned this a couple times and I I think it's an interesting thing to bring up talk to me a little bit about.
30:27.52
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah, right.
31:32.18
lauraklein
What it means when you're talking about your existing team because hiring folks especially in you know the market the way it's been in the last I don't know year. Um, hiring folks has an impact on your existing team too with salaries.
31:23.40
Lisa Dusseault
Yes, and having a decent compensation strategy matters for your existing team. So so much when we talked about the legal reasons for doing this and having a good effort towards it and I think that's dwarfed by the retention reasons if you're just talking about. Reasons that the companies stakeholders you know immoral stakeholders will understand ah retention is still a huge one. The cost to replace somebody who leaves before you want them to leave is enormous. It.
32:43.80
lauraklein
Hey, ah.
32:31.20
Lisa Dusseault
Almost always dwarfs the difference in pay that you could have made up.
33:13.52
lauraklein
Yeah, and know every time I'm I'm advocating for a bigger raise for somebody I Just call them a flight risk and they're only a flight risk. Let me let me point out because I will tell them to flight if they don't get the race ah like no, they should be making this much money and if they're not then they should absolutely leave and I will tell them that um.
32:58.72
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
33:13.32
Lisa Dusseault
But if the company has a process for raising their pay range when they want to raise what they offer new employees and raising people salaries when their pay rate range also goes up and.
33:52.28
lauraklein
But yeah.
33:44.81
Lisa Dusseault
Bringing people up within their pay range when they you know have a good review and they're doing a bunch of races for the company then people don't have to play those games of calling themselves or you know hinting at being a flight risk or having a manager like you who will just go to bat.
(02:22):
34:50.60
lauraklein
Ah, who will just just say that you're a flight risk just too will just say I mean in fairness they should be so I'm not lying I'm just encouraging them to recognize their value.
34:22.52
Lisa Dusseault
Just say that.
34:40.58
Lisa Dusseault
Yep. A prediction backed up by actions you can take.
35:26.60
lauraklein
You know there you go I Love it. Um, So I think the thing that makes me a little nervous I'll be honest is when we do and I've kind of seen this when we do talk about like moving people up or down in levels. Especially when we're just assessing them. Um. You know as as new hires and trying to like figure out where do they sit amongst you know the other hundred designers or Thousand Engineers or whatever it is like that's that's hard right? like and if I can just level them up or down.
35:51.40
Lisa Dusseault
Are.
36:38.80
lauraklein
How how do I do that more fairly.
36:10.60
Lisa Dusseault
It's a lot of work to do fairly to do fairly and properly and thoroughly so generally a rubric is the name for a whole set of descriptions of different skills and responsibilities across a number of different job types.
36:52.24
lauraklein
She.
36:45.88
Lisa Dusseault
That describe what level to put somebody at since I'm most familiar with engineering rubrics and because you can get these you can you can find these in odd corners of the internet where companies have posted their engineering job. Rubrics Engineers are crazy. They'll post anything. They'll open source anything.
37:51.56
lauraklein
They They also like quantifying things very much. Ah.
37:23.28
Lisa Dusseault
And here's and here's like quantifying and having processes and rules for this crazy fuzzy human stuff. But it's not overboard in this case, it's a really good idea and often the rest of the company can benefit from taking advantage of this work or following this example, if the engineering team is leading the way. Um, so the rubric has things like a general job family. It's not going to have big differences between a python engineer and a Java engineer or a on a Ux designer versus a graphic designer but it will have within a big family like engineering or design. Um, differences in responsibility and scope. So a junior engineer's responsibility and scope are described as things like um needs to take time to learn new things in the course of their job ah needs guidance from a manager on how to execute some tasks but not all tasks. Can. Execute um, can can implement new functions without guidance um needs help in implementing new architectural components um works within their own team and with design.
(02:44):
40:12.50
lauraklein
E.
39:51.20
Lisa Dusseault
Um, whereas you start to get into senior or lead engineering stuff your scope and responsibility all shift towards can lead other people can invent new architecture can guide other engineers can implement entire new sections of the architecture. Not only without guidance but guiding other people works across the company works with teams in marketing on ah timing and strategy works with teams in ops on how the new architecture is going to be deployed and and. Or at the highest levels you know works with the board works with the c-suite.
41:43.76
lauraklein
It's It's funny because on all the like technical roles and I kind of consider design and engineering to be sort of technical in their own ways I Always laugh that like at the at the very beginning. It's like less about the you know being really great. Technically you know more about sort of your ability to learn. And then it's like that mid-level and that upper level. It's like really like really good technically like just really good technical skills and then as you get even higher up much less about that because way more about the people all over Again. It's like oh. God So hard when you're like no but I just really want to be very good technically and I don't want to do I Never want to make a powerpoint deck.
42:16.34
Lisa Dusseault
Yep, right.
42:32.84
Lisa Dusseault
Although note that I didn't say anything about people management in the responsibility. Um I personally think it's important and I'll put a plug in here for having high- level engineering individual contributor roles that don't require people who are going to be bad managers to have to be bad managers to.
43:10.72
lauraklein
Now.
43:08.56
Lisa Dusseault
Be considered a ah leader in their company.
43:45.80
lauraklein
I hundred I could not agree with you more on that and figuring out like None of these days I need to do a podcast with folks about how to assess for actual like managerial ability versus craft or technical skill. Um because I I often think that we. We do assessments like that entirely wrong? Um, and we don't end up with people who are great managers. Even if we have you know a whole management track. That's different podcast though. But definitely agree that you should have separate rubrics for them. That's that is an excellent point.
44:20.62
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah.
45:01.48
lauraklein
Um, what like having a good rubric. What's that What's that going to do for a company like why? Why does that help sure whoa.
44:35.46
Lisa Dusseault
Well, it helps in pay Equity. There's a bunch of yes, there's a bunch of things I didn't mention in it like um skills communication skills can be part of your rubric collaboration skills can be part of your rubric ah professionalism and that certainly in the lower levels but you know also in the. Well is it be good if your vps or professional could behave professionally also to be honest.
(03:06):
45:53.36
lauraklein
I mean it limits my Upward mobility. But no I get it? Yeah, ah sure it would be nice. Ah.
45:34.66
Lisa Dusseault
Yep and having having that written down. Also again, it changes this whole negotiation stuff from I Want to raise? Well you're not getting a raise or okay I guess I can get you a raise. How much do you need it changes it all from that to um am I ready to be promoted. Do you? My manager think I'm ready to be promoted what parts of this rubric. Do you think I need work On. It can get a little transactional even so but it's still a an improvement over just the arbitrary.
46:49.62
lauraklein
And.
46:42.62
Lisa Dusseault
Give somebody a raise when they start to make noise.
47:18.64
lauraklein
Yeah, whoever asked for or um I would imagine that it also helps you at least a little bit assess. Those folks who are coming in when you're when you're doing the hiring that you're putting them as much as you can assess people that you haven't worked with on that rubric you at least have some. General Guideline of where they fit in the Organization. So It's not just whatever they ask for.
47:26.86
Lisa Dusseault
From the company's perspective done. Well this can help the company do even better at budgeting and forecasting and stuff because you now know, um, what your promotion rate is or you can you can learn that through your analytics and you can figure out how many people are likely to be promoted and what. Ranges they're likely going to have to be paid according to and estimate raises on something much better than just oh what? If we gave everybody None on average.
48:58.82
lauraklein
Yeah, well and 5% on average is I mean would be great in some years and in other years will absolutely lose you. All of the people are working for you because they can go someplace else and get 20% now um
48:49.38
Lisa Dusseault
Right? And and you don't want to give everybody 5% um not just based on performance but also based on who's already high in their range or who's low in their range.
49:48.14
lauraklein
Yeah, making sure that the folks who are doing the same job are making roughly the same amount of money. Um, we haven't really talked about location based pay vans. What do you? What do you think about that because I have strong opinions that I think are not widely shared.
49:31.72
Lisa Dusseault
Oh yeah, it's. And that goes right back to this um problem of having the salary the pay ranges in job postings making that extra tricky. So Your Hr department might already have a preference if they don't.
50:33.98
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
(03:28):
50:18.32
Lisa Dusseault
Probably you want to pressure them to put something in there that talks about location if it says remote. Okay then or hiring for a remote position by default. Um, then you probably want to say with your pay range along with this with the with the job. Not just that this is going to be a ui designer. Not. Just that they're going to be a senior ui designer and the range is appropriate to the senior level of candidate but also that it's appropriate to ah the baseline of remote work throughout the us for examplessuming you're posting jobs in the us. Because then if ah people come in and they say but I work in San Francisco or but I live in San Francisco you can say well, that's okay, we have a pay range adjustment for San Francisco your if your company hires it all in San Francisco as well as the rest of the country. You probably do have an adjustment for San Francisco it's just more common these days.
52:43.86
lauraklein
It's funny because I'm of course in the San Francisco bay area but I'm fully remote my joke my it's not even a joke that my saying is always that like look I might as well be a hologram. You're never going to see my feet ah like I don't I don't go into offices I am. Fully remote I could be anywhere but I do benefit from being from happening to be you know ten miles away from San Francisco which feels weird if I'm doing the same job as somebody else. Do you have opinions on that.
53:05.10
Lisa Dusseault
Christmas.
53:54.48
lauraklein
Are we seeing any changes now with now that like everything's remote. Do you have opinions Lisa do yeah, could you share those with us I Want to know.
53:19.80
Lisa Dusseault
Well have opinions Laura I have opinions. Laura yeah, all right? Um I'm glad that pay ranges are compressing across the country that the lowest of the low ranges are are coming up and up and closer to. The the highest of the high ranges even as ranges are going up everywhere. The lowest ones are coming up faster I'm happy about that because I want people to be paid. Well wherever they are and do well and I am sure when I look at how executives are paid that we could almost all afford to pay. Our regular workforce more. Um, that said I think it is fair. Fairness is difficult to quantify so I'll say it is fair depending on your definition of fair to pay people who spend less on housing and. Living a lower salary than people who have to pay more for housing and living.
55:57.80
lauraklein
Yeah, it's interesting I Guess when you're fully remote though like it's maybe I don't know maybe they should just be biased against people like me who've chosen to live in a stupid place. Um.
55:42.98
Lisa Dusseault
If there really is no benefit to the company of you living close to San Francisco then eventually I do think this will gradually like wash out and and the ranges will become even tighter but I'm not so sure there isn't some benefit. Not just from the company having you near San Francisco now because it's easier for you to come to important meetings or have a critical lunch date with somebody that is having trouble working with you and you want to get through that or ah, being in the same time zone and being available or. Having connections in the bay area having your past jobs be in the bay area having um, a really dense professional network that you that that helps you as an employee I think all of that stuff can sometimes count.
58:01.66
lauraklein
That's an interesting point that I thought the time zone thing I've definitely thought a lot about having um literally direct reports in I think 6 different time zones. Um some of which are actually mutually incompatible I cannot have calls with people in Tokyo and London at the same time just doesn't.
57:56.22
Lisa Dusseault
Help.
58:36.98
lauraklein
Doesn't work. No I'm not getting up at 2 am um but but I thought those were pie based things and which I was yeah.
58:06.96
Lisa Dusseault
I know I'm a better engineer for being able to go to PiBay easily for being able to go to pineinsula easily these python use interest group meetups I'm a better engineer for having met you in karate class.
(03:50):
59:14.40
lauraklein
Ah, oh yeah, we should ah we should say that the the way that we got to know each other was actually by just hitting each other weekly. Yeah yeah, let' took I mean a certain kind of connection.
58:46.90
Lisa Dusseault
Ah, best way to form a connection. Yeah um, and and being in the bay area for as long as I have on the one hand I've had to pay more to live here. Then if I'd stayed were in Canada but um, the connections I formed and the network I have and the people I can call on I can be hang out with somebody on the weekend and say Earl can you tell me something about this kind of statistical analysis and Earl. Real person. He'll tell me really good stuff.
01:00:37.54
lauraklein
that's that's ah that's a great point that that actually makes me feel a little bit better about paying people in certain areas a little differently you know and thinking about pay bands in that way because it's true I do have a I've got a real big tech network and I mean some of that is being 1000 years old and some of that is. Being a thousand years old in Silicon Valley ah which it does it. It absolutely helps. Um, well that's that's an interesting way of thinking about pay band so you may have actually changed my opinion which I mean happens rarely so you know gloat this is this is your time.
01:00:37.86
Lisa Dusseault
Now.
01:01:51.10
lauraklein
Well done. You do you have an opinion about what the hardest thing about hiring or getting hired is I'm sort of springing this on you out of nowhere but I like to ask people like what what? what makes this so hard.
01:01:38.36
Lisa Dusseault
Well in the end I think ah maybe it's because I'm an engineer and I think that technical problems are tractable I don't think the hard part is anything technical that you can apply analysis and data management and. Visualizations too. I Think the hard stuff is figuring out fit and fairly um, finding out if somebody is going to excel in their role when you've talked to them for. You know your entire company has talked to them for a total of 5 hours I try to but do better than this by intensely Checking. People's references and it's still not enough to figure that out and I try to revert every kind of Bias I might have when doing it.
01:03:26.54
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
01:03:23.60
Lisa Dusseault
Because figuring out fit we can look for people who are like us and that doesn't make it easier. It only makes it harder So I know that.
01:04:12.64
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah, and not good like that's I don't want other God knows I don't want other people like me. Ah.
01:03:50.54
Lisa Dusseault
So I would say fit is the hardest and then when it's when the fit is not working and you're giving somebody every chance at the training they need and the accommodations they need and the time to get up to speed and the fit is still really not there. Fit for the person for the job or the job for the person how to move on from that successfully sometimes sometimes it becomes adversarial because it it can be hard for everybody to agree when there's not a not a fit solution but sometimes you can do it.
01:05:31.46
lauraklein
Yeah.
(04:12):
01:05:02.92
Lisa Dusseault
Gracefully. It's just super super hard.
01:05:40.68
lauraklein
Yeah, you're right I I tend to agree with you I think that is if not the hardest thing certainly one of the hardest things about about hiring is just making sure that it's the right person and the right job and that we all are going to be happy moving forward together and make it work. But.
01:05:38.16
Lisa Dusseault
Yeah I try to tell people a lot about the job when I interview them even demo a little bit here's what you'd be doing. You'd be doing this kind of thing and uploading this kind of data to this kind of site and cleaning up this kind of mess. Um.
01:06:22.38
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
01:06:12.76
Lisa Dusseault
I was recently hiring for a data engineer position which is why I talk about cleaning up messes h our data is so messy. Did you know that Laura.
01:06:53.76
lauraklein
There there you go oh good that all mix. What yeah know that all makes a lot of sense now that you tell me what you were deiring for um, no well thank you Lisa that was um, that's that's super helpful and that that is actually all the time that we have for today. Um I want to thank Lisa again for joining us.
01:06:33.80
Lisa Dusseault
Now.
01:07:32.36
lauraklein
I Also want to thank all of you out there for listening and and wish you all the best of luck with your own search whether it's for a new job or a new employee I've written for you.
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