June 28, 2022 • 38 mins
In this episode, Laura talks with Tracy Kroop, the Director of User Experience at Boomi, about how hiring managers can forge a great relationship with recruiters and how the process is largely broken.
Interested in working with Tracy? Boomi is hiring!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
00:03.97
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein please be advised this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. My guest today is Tracy K Croup Tracy is the director of user experience at Boomy Ah Tracy is currently hiring a lot of designers researchers ah content ops person and some technical writers. So I'm just going to throw that out there just in case, anybody's listening to this because you know they're thinking of moving like you know. Apparently everybody else in the universe. Um today Tracy and I are going to be talking a little bit about what it's like actually working with recruiters. What recruiters are what they do? What works? What doesn't some of the maybe some of a few of the challenges we've run into so thank you so much for joining us Tracy. Um.
01:00.79
Tracy Kroop
Um, thank you I'm really excited about this conversation.
01:00.86
lauraklein
It is great to have you. It's I think it's going to be good. Um, the the first thing that I want to start with because I I never it's so funny because but I was at little tiny companies and you know freelancing for so long that I don't think I really ever groed the whole like what a recruiter. Is and what they do and like there's internal and external and there's different roles. Can you just talk briefly about that first so that we can define our terms.
01:29.83
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, sure. Um I So I've also worked at small companies where we were the recreers. Um right? But I've also worked at.
01:37.52
lauraklein
Yeah, exactly Yeah, sometimes the hiring manager is the recruiter like it. You never know when you're replying. But.
01:47.11
Tracy Kroop
Medium and now larger larger companies where we have ah a very large talent acquisition team and so we have recruiters we have schedulers we have coordinators we have roles I am probably not recalling right now but there's a whole team in place and. The primary role of the recruiter is to source candidates both passive candidates that they think met the profile of the requisition and and screen active candidates to see like perform that first pass before putting those resumes in front of the hiring managers. And when it's done well, they're a really great partner and you develop a shorthand and they understand the needs of the role. They understand the opportunities they work really closely with us and.
02:26.95
lauraklein
Um, and.
02:41.90
Tracy Kroop
Help us to think creatively about how to make sure that we land the best candidates and we make this the place that they want to stay in.
02:45.48
lauraklein
Yeah, so I mean they're really the experts in I mean attracting folks to the the org and doing all the like telling them about you know all the benefits and why people should come here and all of that. But but they're often not experts in.
02:50.67
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah.
03:02.66
lauraklein
The thing they're recruiting for you know the you know engineering or design or product management.
03:08.84
Tracy Kroop
That's true and actually some of the best recruitters that I've worked with are not ux experts. But that's where so that's where I think of it as um I was a consultant before my current role in Boomy. And I think of it similarly to the situations I was in as a consultant where we didn't have deep subject matter Expertise like we weren't and and we were very upfront about that we looked we looked at the needs of the organization and the tools that they were using and we knew how to. Observe and analyze user behavior and needs and we knew how to surface those needs in business tools and it didn't matter that we didn't have deep expertise in International and foreign exchange treating or higher education or government agencies.
03:57.58
lauraklein
Ah.
04:03.40
Tracy Kroop
Um, I'm not arguing that It's not helpful if you do it's It's the whole generalist specialist sort of debate. But that's what I think is true when working with recruiters too I mean I'm that subject matter expert.
04:09.23
lauraklein
It right.
04:20.26
Tracy Kroop
So If we have that strong relationship and we have that partnership their domain is how to reach candidates How to so how to advise and and provide guidance on structuring a strong offer. What are the ways in which we can close the gap if we're not completely aligned between their expectations and what we can offer like it's both and and I don't need somebody to duplicate what I do well and vice versa.
04:44.32
lauraklein
No, that's a great point that they don't They don't have to do that as long as they're willing to you know, bow to your expertise on who who you actually want to talk to I think that can be a challenge I mean let's let's let's talk about some of the ways it doesn't go well because I always find those stories to be the most fun? Um, ah.
04:53.10
Tracy Kroop
Um, here.
05:00.66
Tracy Kroop
Ah, you learn so much by what not to do as as well as well as what to do definitely.
05:03.36
lauraklein
Yeah, exactly yeah, what? what? what? not to do Tracy what goes badly.
05:10.94
Tracy Kroop
Oh what? not to do um in recruiting and so many other topics don't shut the conversation down open it Up. You know it's divergence and convergence and it's ebbing and Flowing. Um. Ask more questions than statements made especially in the early stages of a process do not make assumptions or at least acknowledge the assumptions you're making and then you know work to validate them. Um I don't mean validate them and then.
(00:31):
05:45.53
lauraklein
Um, I know I know ah work work to under Yes, well sure. Yeah.
05:47.51
Tracy Kroop
And let's confirm my bias then no different podcast but but I mean like ah you know strong opinions loosely held I'm open to being wrong. Um, ah what not to do so um.
06:03.39
lauraklein
And specifically like when working with a recruiter like what are there like when the recruiters What what happens when it goes bad What what makes it go bad.
06:10.42
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, um I am thinking this through because I'm sure that there are things that quote wrong from a hiring manager perspective as well as the the recruiter end of things. So um I think it's really helpful.
06:21.18
lauraklein
Um, oh sure I make all sorts of mistakes.
06:29.86
Tracy Kroop
Make no assumptions treat this like a project and have a kickoff I think part of it is building the relationship between hiring manager and recruiter if you haven't worked together before you haven't been working long. Um I think it's a q and a between those 2 roles. Here's what I'm looking for and or what are you looking for as a hiring manager here's what I'm looking for here's a general profile. Um here are places where I've had success recruiting from you know whether it's.
07:03.37
lauraklein
Who.
07:07.40
Tracy Kroop
The community or job fairs or University relations and specific programs If if you go the degree route um like brainstorming with your recruiting partner to think about the ways in which you can make sure that you. Maintain that Broad network and that you're casting a wide net and that you're finding the best talent from a pool of Diversity. So.
07:34.78
lauraklein
A lot I found that a lot of what I do is especially when working with a branding person is I spend a lot of that early time sort of calibrating and helping them recognize what I'm going to see as the right candidate for a particular role which is heart to. For me to do upfront it so hard for me to explain here's exactly the 3 things that you're looking for.. It's more sort of like show me some and I'll tell you what's wrong with them and we'll go from there. But.
07:55.88
Tracy Kroop
Right. Yeah, actually and yes and I realized that um in answering what doesn't go well I shifted it to what I want so that it does go well what doesn't go well is being too binary about it like how many years does this person have to have like. Look at the quality of experience. Not the quantity of experience I think as you get into more senior like highly senior roles and especially the management track. Um, it probably bodes. Well if you do have a minimum number of years experience. But I'm still looking more at the quality of the experience and in those senior levels. I need somebody who has been around long enough to have experienced failure and to have matured enough where they can talk about it without being defensive. So um, sticking too much to the number of years sticking too much to keywords and only keywords I think those things.
08:46.66
lauraklein
To hit.
08:55.45
lauraklein
Um.
08:59.82
Tracy Kroop
Narrow down your search and it cuts you off from a lot of potential talent.
09:02.26
lauraklein
And some recruiters really do focus on those keywords because I know that when they're sourcing when they're going out you know into you know Linkedin or or wherever and they're looking for resumes they're they're typing in keywords to find people and that can be so tricky because it doesn't always say.
09:11.75
Tracy Kroop
Event.
09:21.15
lauraklein
The exact words like there's I don't know what the magic words are.
09:21.49
Tracy Kroop
Writing I am not sure that I do either I mean I'm not I'm not closed off nor am I Naive to the fact that Keywords have to play a part in this I mean otherwise we're going to get so far. Off course. It would be like here is a lump of Click. That's that's meant that part at you know like you don't want to get so far off yeah, you don't want to get so far off course where you have somebody who doesn't meet.
09:47.69
lauraklein
Ah, that's okay, we'll cut that. Ah.
09:58.50
Tracy Kroop
Any of the requirements doesn't have any familiarity with what you do where you're investing more of your time teaching them what it is that we're hiring for and then making them someone who can perform well in that role like you know it. It can be so broad.
10:00.44
lauraklein
And.
10:11.18
lauraklein
Um, yeah, you need somebody who has some familiarity. Yes, ah.
(00:52):
10:17.70
Tracy Kroop
Exactly So there are some general Keywords that will get you in the right area but I I bristle at leaning on those Keywords as the driver of who's going to succeed Once you know they're in place.
10:30.40
lauraklein
Yeah, also titles let's talk about titles because boy boy are those boy are those sometimes deceptive I mean well and I say this as somebody who literally has I have on my resume I just full disclosure I have my resume I believe I have engineer um Vp of product.
10:34.28
Tracy Kroop
Yes. Um, yeah.
10:49.63
lauraklein
Um, ah you know Ux manager um not in that order like just all over the like everywhere and so if you look you know if you look at my resume. You would be hard pressed to understand what I could do.
10:56.11
Tracy Kroop
Um, ray.
11:07.30
Tracy Kroop
Here here.
11:08.88
lauraklein
Or what I would want to do and I you know I mean I could do any of those things I don't want to do most of those things. But.
11:14.98
Tracy Kroop
Yeah I mean titles aren't universal full stop at least not in our field titles are not universal and it doesn't it doesn't encapsulate the entirety of your experience or what you're capable of doing So I mean.
11:17.49
lauraklein
Yeah now.
11:34.51
Tracy Kroop
Also like I'm not ah I'm not in favor of removing all titles and and we're all we all do the same thing. No, we don't I've I've worked um I worked.
11:40.51
lauraklein
Um, Nope Absolutely Also not true. Absolutely Also not true. Ah.
11:47.51
Tracy Kroop
Ah, worked in organizations where they tried to go that route. It's like a variation on the flat hierarchy is like anyway um titles. Yes.
11:48.75
lauraklein
Um, yeah, so titles are very important, especially for folks I think who are underrepresented it in a lot of ways because like because they they mean something and often they will have to prove their Bona fides in a way that you and I maybe don't.
12:03.90
Tracy Kroop
Absolutely yep, but there's also a lot of creativity I mean explain to me what a Ux Ninja Rock Star is and what level they come into my organization as um, yeah.
12:07.11
lauraklein
Um, so yeah, so yeah, oh yeah.
12:17.44
lauraklein
Oh I forgot I also have webmistre on my resume but that's from the 90 s I pride I I also have webist on my resume but that's from the 90 s so it's probably fallen off by now. But.
12:22.83
Tracy Kroop
You also have what.
12:27.41
Tracy Kroop
Yeah I mean titles are not universal. Some titles are a little too creative to be helpful. Um, again, the titles are a guide but I'm going to look really closely at the quality of your experience. What did you do? What were the outcomes.
12:40.16
lauraklein
Um, and and what you did? Yeah yeah.
12:45.71
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, what did you learn from it where were the mistakes made. What do you wish you could go back in time and do differently all of that. Okay.
12:50.30
lauraklein
Yeah, even ux manager right? like which is which seems very straightforward and some places it's very much like oh you're gonna be half an ic you know and half some of them. It's like oh you are just going to do people management and other ones it's sort of like a weird kind of like oh you're.
(01:13):
13:04.19
Tracy Kroop
Um, right.
13:07.92
lauraklein
Guide projects but you know Also you're going to be a feltto Fuel's career progression higher and like who the hell knows right? like it could be any any all or none of those things and it seems so straightforward. Um, which isn't even getting into the like if you're at a small company.
13:13.35
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, yeah.
13:26.44
lauraklein
There is title inflation at small companies. Um, you know as there maybe should be because like you know you do become a director sooner I guess um like but.
13:26.94
Tracy Kroop
Right? There is.
13:34.10
Tracy Kroop
I was a director in my early to mid 20 s and now in my home. Yeah yeah.
13:37.17
lauraklein
Um, yeah, exactly it's ah yeah, ah yeah, me too I'm I'm in those? Ah yeah.
13:49.82
Tracy Kroop
And and so um, so yes, there is tidal inflation and also as organizations evolve. You know what got here won't get you there So there's the maturity and the evolution of titles within an organization I've done a lot of work to create levels in my organization where.
13:54.87
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
14:09.37
Tracy Kroop
Didn't exist for Ux and it's provided a lot of clarity in terms of what's expected and at what level and how consistently and you know it's hiring and then um, career coaching and growth and development like it's It's 1 large, very complex process and I think it all feeds into each other.
14:28.60
lauraklein
Yeah, but trying to explain that to a recruiter who maybe isn't a ux expert or an engineering or whatever you know like you know oh I think it's just as bad in engineering honestly where it's like oh you're a sweet three I don't know what.
14:35.66
Tracy Kroop
Um, right I.
14:44.77
Tracy Kroop
Oh right.
14:47.53
lauraklein
That is you know, like at the various different organizations and I've actually had recruiters reject people for having the wrong title sometimes too high a title when I'm like no no, no, no, that was too high a title at a 10 person company that is.
14:54.76
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, right. Right? Yeah, yeah, that again like I can't emphasize how much I value relationships enough that again is where the the relationship factor comes in and that's where the.
15:04.31
lauraklein
That does not apply here. But.
15:20.85
Tracy Kroop
Transparency and communication comes in because I do rely on my recruiting partners to help screen out some of the people that that aren't going to align. Yeah they they don't align to the goals and needs of the organization.
15:34.48
lauraklein
They're clearly wrong. Yeah, they're they're clearly not the right yet.
15:39.86
Tracy Kroop
It doesn't mean they don't deserve that role somewhere else. It just means that there are so many varieties and and companies have like that's the whole other topic. But.
15:44.13
lauraklein
Totally I I I work I work in Enterprise I spend a lot of time going. This person is a marvelous visual designer and illustrator and they should absolutely go and find a creative role that is not going to be.
15:55.17
Tracy Kroop
Right.
(01:34):
16:03.89
lauraklein
Working within a very strict design system on like ridiculous Enterprise Saas products where they will be miserable. Ah.
16:08.25
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, yeah, but like the back to what you were saying with the s sweet 3 and that kind of thing and how it correlates so software software engineer and level 3 Um, we.
16:15.58
lauraklein
Ah, um, software engineer yeah yeah software engineer 3 but
16:27.19
Tracy Kroop
We had that I think we still do to some extent but our company used to be part of a ah larger parent company. Um, we were part of delt and I mean Dell's core is engineering and so when I was building my organization we were.
16:34.73
lauraklein
Yeah.
16:46.10
Tracy Kroop
Everyone was a different flavor of engineer. Even if we weren't an engineer and that introduced a lot of confusion. It introduced a lot of confusion internally and externally internally once people and were in place were the expectations. What are the career Paths. What are the you know all of that. But then externally you would see these. Job postings on any number of sites and forums and it wasn't an accurate depiction in title alone of what the the role requires and so for job seekers who are likely scanning hundreds of titles a day. They're not going to click on everyone to see is this really an engineer or is it a Ux role. So it zack. Oh yeah, in mine too. But but that's one of the first things that we reconciled.
17:23.45
lauraklein
Um, yeah, like a Ux engineer is very different from a Ux designer in my book but maybe not Adele. But yeah, but.
17:41.91
Tracy Kroop
Um, as as ah, a newly independent company where to some extent like we still have the job families that aren't always super closely aligned and we're working on that but 1 big step. We've taken is to embrace the in our company we call it the business card title. Like if if your level is a software engineer to that translates to ah a ux designer or a you like or except right? What is it that you do because you're not a s sweet 3 what is it that you do.
18:10.67
lauraklein
Yeah, here's the human title. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
18:21.30
Tracy Kroop
So so that's what we've leaned on and that's that is now how we're able to post our positions too. So we're able to clarify a lot of the confusion from the onset.
18:28.33
lauraklein
Yeah, that that I would imagine helps quite a bit but it does like I said it does make it much more complicated for recruiters who are trying to sort through people's resumes if they've got these like weird things on there and I mean I think it does help explain to a lot of folks.
18:31.79
Tracy Kroop
Who in.
18:47.64
lauraklein
Who get their resumes rejected out of hand that it may just be confusing like the person who's looking at it may not be like they're they're trying to decipher a lot of these things and if yours is at all confusing like I mean mine is extremely confusing. You are maybe not going to be at the top of the list because they got to do a lot of work.
18:58.47
Tracy Kroop
Writing.
19:04.75
Tracy Kroop
Right? right? And well yeah, but also and saying ah the way you are describing your resume.
19:07.20
lauraklein
Figure out what you do.
19:13.79
lauraklein
Yes, and ah.
19:22.93
Tracy Kroop
Don't interpret that as confusing I mean you followed a really interesting nonlinear path. Um and and a lot of people that I've worked with in the past and currently have also followed nonlinear paths. They may have operated inside and outside of management tracks. They may have. Worked across numerous organizations. Um, and love that kind of exploration that kind of curiosity. 1 of our team's core values is curiosity. So that's in in my screening process and my hiring process. That's not a deal breaker and so again that is something I have to explicitly.
19:55.80
lauraklein
Interesting.
20:01.40
Tracy Kroop
Share with the recruiters I work with here's here's what works and here's what doesn't for my needs in the organization's needs and and so that's why when you asked earlier what doesn't work. It's sticking to too narrow a focus and too specific The Keywords and only the keywords.
20:06.60
lauraklein
Yeah.
(01:55):
20:20.38
Tracy Kroop
It's because it it shuts down that conversation and it narrows that range and and I don't want to do that and I don't have to.
20:24.78
lauraklein
Yeah, you know and I think it can be really like if you're not an expert in something and you see somebody who has a nice clear progression from they were an associate for this song and then they became a ux designer and then they were a senior ux designer and then maybe they wanted to manage it like you can kind of see that progression and that's a very easy.
20:34.33
Tracy Kroop
Then it.
20:43.25
lauraklein
Kind of yes, move them on to the next level. But if you see somebody who's let's look. We won't say confusing I'll say confused that's probably more more correct but it is. It is very hard to explain to a recruiter. No no send me the weirdos.
20:43.98
Tracy Kroop
Um, and Then. Um, it pick it.
20:55.66
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, yeah, keep you X weird.
20:59.30
lauraklein
Because all the weirdos are kind of weirdos in a different way I mean and again very much talking about myself here. So don't don't don't write it. Don't write in everybody. This is like this is me. We're talking about I'm I'm good with it I know what I am um but like yeah there you go like send me the send me more of the weirdos. So but not the kind of weirdos who had like no relevant experience. It's a tricky. It's hard to calibrate that even as a hiring manager with a lot of experience.
21:24.20
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, and that's where that initial kickoff if not the ongoing conversation is really essential because that's where some of this is a difference in philosophies and strategies across hiring Managers. So I Want my recruiting partners to know here are the types of experiences that are likely to translate Well so we work in a very technical space and within that technical Space. We have niche product experience.
21:49.50
lauraklein
See here.
22:02.84
Tracy Kroop
It is highly unlikely that I will find a product designer with deep experience in this product line and like it's it's too. It's too linear. It's or or not even linear. It's too rigid.
22:20.13
lauraklein
To death. So.
22:22.59
Tracy Kroop
So That's where I look for that's where I look for the attitude and the aptitude and so the job descriptions are written in a way where there's definitely specificity because people need that to know whether it's going to be a waste of their time but I don't want it to be overly prescriptive. So For instance I am not requiring that you have to have X number of years in the designs of Api Development portals. But I am going to look for technical experience. Have you have you been a product designer. In the Enterprise space have you been a product designer for B Two B and not B to C like web applications not consumer websites. Um, you know those kinds of things and so that's how I can work with the recruiter to shape the um.
23:17.60
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
23:18.31
Tracy Kroop
Shape that lump of Clay like I want to leave it open ended but not not vague and to me those are 2 very different things.
23:22.91
lauraklein
Um, yeah, know it it very much is and if you are open to so it's It's always funny because I always sort of think like there's this like very, there's this baseline of a whole bunch of different things like you have to have a little bit of experience in like all of these sort things but like those really our Baseline and I'm really not. Looking to hire somebody who's absolutely at the but the bare minimum of all of it I'm looking for people who are like but if you have like for example in that one might be like somebody who has a bunch of engineering experience also might might be super helpful and might push you up even if some of your other experiences might be a little bit.
23:44.48
Tracy Kroop
Right.
23:53.25
Tracy Kroop
Right.
24:01.45
Tracy Kroop
Frame.
24:01.65
lauraklein
You know so kind of trying to um, it's so funny because I'm waving my hands around which is not not really great for a podcast. Um, but you know yeah yeah there you go for for folks for for old folks who have seen a stereo equalizer I Always think of things like a stereo equalizer.
24:09.30
Tracy Kroop
But it helps me helps me understand you keep going.
24:19.62
lauraklein
Where you know you can kind of like raise the the level of this a little bit lower the level of this other thing and I think that that's that's that's a really good way of thinking about it for me. Yeah.
(02:16):
24:21.64
Tracy Kroop
Um, right? Oh yeah, totally yeah, we've explored this a number of ways in our team. Um, in terms of the various visualizations and graphs and the ways in which.
24:34.39
lauraklein
Is.
24:41.80
Tracy Kroop
This early on where I mapped out collectively I need the organization to have this level of expertise um in these specific areas across the evergrowing field of user experience I don't need nor expect. Any 1 person regardless of their seniority and experience I and expect any 1 person to be at the top of each of those areas. In fact I want to merge the individual not merge but overlap the individual.
25:08.62
lauraklein
So.
25:16.88
Tracy Kroop
Sort of graphs to see if we get the collective shape of what's needed in the organization. Um I've done that as an exercise with um with people when I interview them. Um, as a very quick thing like.
25:18.30
lauraklein
Yes.
25:36.80
Tracy Kroop
Um, basic vocabulary and familiarity strong competency or like deep expertise. This is my sham. Um, so it's like t-shirt sizing across different areas and then I ask them? um.
25:41.37
lauraklein
In here stretch.
25:51.16
lauraklein
T-shirt. So yeah here.
25:56.79
Tracy Kroop
So. The first question is how would you self-ass assess in these areas and then I've asked them to go back into it and say um once you've done that are there specific areas where you don't currently have expertise that you'd want to build it up. And likewise. Do you have specific expertise that you want to start backing away from and well I I modeled it on my own path. My background is in graphic design I spent years in graphic design and then didn't realize I was.
26:19.87
lauraklein
I Think that's such a good question. Ah.
26:27.00
lauraklein
Oh cool.
26:35.54
Tracy Kroop
Shifting into ux like I came from a holistic design program where you know you solve problems through design. Um, but at the time it was named as a graphic design program. So um, and I love being a people leader now. I love being a team builder I love being a mentor and coach I love solving the design or contributing to the design strategy of um and and not just not solely design but the the broader ux strategy of my organization. But I don't want to be the 1 crafting. Work anymore and so while I would probably still put myself as fairly high proficiency in visual design I don't have that same kind of interest in doing it anymore.
27:21.00
lauraklein
Right? I don't want to do it anymore. But it is nice to know because it's good because you can then evaluate other people's work. But yeah I got to say though it's interesting like when you're talking about trying to find folks who sort of overlap and trying to find you know like you're trying to fill.
27:28.62
Tracy Kroop
Um, right exactly.
27:40.52
lauraklein
Role I always think of it as like trying to fill roles and different people kind of fill different certain different roles to a certain extent that just ups the the complexity for working with it with ah a recruiter by like a thousand percent because it's no longer like.
27:55.80
Tracy Kroop
Yeah.
27:59.36
lauraklein
I'm hiring for a job and that job is this job that I can describe and you're going to go off and you're going to find me 3 people who do x it's like you're going to find me between 3 and 5 people who amongst them cover these.
28:14.78
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, yeah, and and that's where that's where I have taken the guidance of recruiters who say ah moving past the keywords.
28:18.24
lauraklein
Things and ah yeah.
28:32.97
Tracy Kroop
Are there are people who um, are currently on your team or even people who you know have been on your team in the past like is is there a profile that we could model the optimal candy over now that gets a little tricky too because I'm not looking for clones.
(02:37):
28:35.87
lauraklein
She.
28:50.24
lauraklein
I Have that person I don't need a segment. Yeah.
28:52.60
Tracy Kroop
Ah, you know 1 broad range right? However I can speak to a number of individuals who have succeeded um on on various levels for any number of reasons so I can take.
29:06.22
lauraklein
Oh my.
29:09.78
Tracy Kroop
I can take a person on my team and say this person did not have Sas experience coming in the door but they're exceptional. So see this is what I mean and and um and this person came to ux by way of um.
29:28.77
lauraklein
Oh those are great.
29:29.52
Tracy Kroop
Cognitive Psychology or or or an anthropology background and and so they brought in these skills of being able to analyze and observe human behavior Whether or not they're working in Ux research they understand.
29:37.95
lauraklein
And her.
29:49.41
Tracy Kroop
Importance of research they have the strong empathy to understand like they know how to create the the product that exceeds our user's expectations and so I can use some of these profiles as guidance for the discussions that we have. And still say I don't want you to find me a clone of this person I Want you to find somebody who has the lateral thinking abilities I Want you to find me somebody who has the insatiable curiosity I want somebody who um, is is.
30:10.31
lauraklein
Right.
30:28.26
Tracy Kroop
Open to trying new things and learning new things and doesn't get easily discouraged by something that proves itself to be really difficult because that's very much the space that we're In. It's challenging and that's that's the thing that keeps me here. But. It isn't for everybody for some people. It could be really flustering and and so let's do all of Us. You know a favor and figure out. Do We have what you're seeking and do you have what we're seeking.
30:58.83
lauraklein
I Think that's the the most important thing. What what do you think? the hardest thing is about about hiring right? Um because it is hard I mean it is it is It is not easy. Ah.
31:05.58
Tracy Kroop
Um, currently oh totally I Wish it was but it's never going to be um, what makes did you say hiring or recruiting I mean.
31:21.87
lauraklein
Hiring recruiting either? Yeah, all of it I mean.
31:24.19
Tracy Kroop
Um, I mean right now what makes recruiting right now in 2022 what makes recruiting so difficult is that we're all competing for the same talent I mean the opportunities are abundant and um. Um, really glad that I'm working for a company that has committed long term to the idea of remote working because while it doesn't it doesn't make it easy. It definitely makes the challenge easier because now I can seek the talent in whatever place people call home. So it. It casts a broader net and with that also comes its challenges too. But personally I've found it to be really liberating to be able to focus on who is going to be a great addition to the team rather than who's going to be a great addition to the team. And are they willing to relocate to the Philadelphia metro area.
32:21.10
lauraklein
Ah, yeah, are you are you are you fantastic at all these 17 things and also do you really like cheeseticks. Ah I mean yes, and yes, um, do you have any? you have any great stories about. But hiring any any just absolutely ridiculous. I've got so many ridiculous things that have happened when hiring and trying to be hired i.
32:39.74
Tracy Kroop
Oh my God Yeah um, you know we're always searching for that Great book idea right? I Wonder if I should write one on the interviews I've fled. Um.
32:47.97
lauraklein
I said.
32:55.42
Tracy Kroop
Or and in perhaps a chapter as a candidate the interviews I've been in but um, the one that comes to mind is this isn't ah a previous job. But there's a candidate who life tweeted the interview. Um.
33:08.89
lauraklein
I Think in a way I got I got to respect it and in another way. Holy shit. That's.
33:16.11
Tracy Kroop
I was so I was so intrigued it fascinated me because I mean the interview process is challenging as it is and there are a lot of schedules to coordinate and if it's done Well, you're meeting with a cross-section of people. It's not a singular person who will either paint.
(02:58):
33:23.85
lauraklein
Oh super hard. Yeah.
33:35.24
Tracy Kroop
Best possible picture and then it's even if they're truthful. It's not what you may experience like I you know I I think it a good. Ah good interview experience involves meeting with a crosssection of people that you'll be working with and so I was in an interview. With a Kennedy I I can't even I think the interview was fine like it didn't stand out one way or the other. But when I got back to my desk and the next duo went in for their for their segment you know I i. Did the required cyberstalking. How did they present themselves online and I found their Twitter account and I found that they were live tweeting the interview now they were generally favorable about the experience. So yay, but.
34:13.84
lauraklein
Yeah I look I look them up online. Yeah I Do oh admit, no.
34:30.56
Tracy Kroop
But it does call into question. Um, yeah, yeah should I finish should I finish that and sentence it calls into question. It's a lack of judgment. It's a lack of judgment.
34:32.52
lauraklein
Oh it calls into question. A lot of things. Yeah. Ah, it calls into question as somebody as somebody who is as somebody who is as we like to say terminally online that it that crosses the line even for me I mean that is very like unless you are applying for a social media expert job. Maybe I could see it. But for a ux designer I mean first of all, you're spending your like you're actually sitting there on your phone during the interview which is weird.
35:02.76
Tracy Kroop
Right? I I to be fair, if memory serves and my memory is years old but ah if memory serves they weren't on their phone during the actual interview. But as I took my leave and you know if there was a break or if somebody else was a minute or 2 from entering the room. That's when the live tweeting was happening and and and the thing is I mean you could argue how is that different from.
35:31.41
lauraklein
That's um, that's a thing.
35:39.75
Tracy Kroop
Experience like would it be different if you tweeted after the fact I think yes, how is it different from submitting your experiences on Glass door any number of other sites. The fact is it's different because you're doing this afterwards and in the interview process I Believe your focus should be on the interview. There are sometimes extenuating circumstances like it's It's definitely not a an unconditional requirement but I would argue that there's no need to live tweet your experience as you're hearing being hurtle.
36:12.99
lauraklein
I like I like how even getting your baby but I like I even ended your being about it and I've just kind of like you did fucking. What.
36:19.88
Tracy Kroop
Exactly I mean I was amused. It's definite I can't even remember how many years ago this was this was easily a decade ago.
36:22.81
lauraklein
Um, sure it I would say in fairness if they had been fantastic I might have just been like yeah okay I'm going to just accept the fact that they are going to be live tweeting. Absolutely everything that goes on and if that's the thing that I'm okay with then yeah, let's bring them in like that's.
36:42.17
Tracy Kroop
but but I I I thought a lot about this. Well I mean I I don't haven't spent the last ten years thinking about it. But at the time I was in client services and I was ah I was a consultant so how does that translate.
36:42.40
lauraklein
That's hilarious, but um, oh man, that's so gutsy.
37:01.14
Tracy Kroop
If you are live tweeting the interview which I think there's a a reasonable expectation for discretion and privacy. But if if we hired you and you go into these environments where I mean I I was in environments where I had.
37:08.73
lauraklein
Oh yeah, no, that's a hard now.
37:20.85
Tracy Kroop
Secret Clearance and I had to do background you know, um, you're vetted differently and you're signing various and ndas and I worked with Healthcare clients and like you're going into sensitive Situations. So this. Calls into question This person's ability to exercise good judgment because it's amusing in this situation but it can expose us to a lot of liability in a different situation.
37:48.29
lauraklein
Oh yeah, know there are absolutely or like the the situation you just described. That's a hard that's a hard pass on that person that no question I guess I you know maybe if you're replying it like Tiktok okay record the whole thing. It's fine. But yeah, but you're not you sure.
37:54.40
Tracy Kroop
11
38:02.66
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, but but this was before Tiktok and it was before like it was before social media specialists or like that role didn't really it was a highly niche thing if it existed at all ten years ago
38:06.70
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
38:16.10
lauraklein
So funny I mean I love this or and I'm I'm going to end on that because also that is all the time we have for today. Um I want to thank Tracy for joining us. Um I also want to thank all of you for listening and I want to wish everybody honestly the best of luck with your search whether it's for a new job or a new employee or a new. And knew anything I'm rooting for you.
00:03.97
lauraklein
Hello and welcome to what is wrong with hiring the podcast where we talk about why hiring people and getting hired are both absolute nightmares I'm your host Laura Klein please be advised this podcast may contain drinking swearing and screaming into the abyss so pretty much like most podcasts. My guest today is Tracy K Croup Tracy is the director of user experience at Boomy Ah Tracy is currently hiring a lot of designers researchers ah content ops person and some technical writers. So I'm just going to throw that out there just in case, anybody's listening to this because you know they're thinking of moving like you know. Apparently everybody else in the universe. Um today Tracy and I are going to be talking a little bit about what it's like actually working with recruiters. What recruiters are what they do? What works? What doesn't some of the maybe some of a few of the challenges we've run into so thank you so much for joining us Tracy. Um.
01:00.79
Tracy Kroop
Um, thank you I'm really excited about this conversation.
01:00.86
lauraklein
It is great to have you. It's I think it's going to be good. Um, the the first thing that I want to start with because I I never it's so funny because but I was at little tiny companies and you know freelancing for so long that I don't think I really ever groed the whole like what a recruiter. Is and what they do and like there's internal and external and there's different roles. Can you just talk briefly about that first so that we can define our terms.
01:29.83
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, sure. Um I So I've also worked at small companies where we were the recreers. Um right? But I've also worked at.
01:37.52
lauraklein
Yeah, exactly Yeah, sometimes the hiring manager is the recruiter like it. You never know when you're replying. But.
01:47.11
Tracy Kroop
Medium and now larger larger companies where we have ah a very large talent acquisition team and so we have recruiters we have schedulers we have coordinators we have roles I am probably not recalling right now but there's a whole team in place and. The primary role of the recruiter is to source candidates both passive candidates that they think met the profile of the requisition and and screen active candidates to see like perform that first pass before putting those resumes in front of the hiring managers. And when it's done well, they're a really great partner and you develop a shorthand and they understand the needs of the role. They understand the opportunities they work really closely with us and.
02:26.95
lauraklein
Um, and.
02:41.90
Tracy Kroop
Help us to think creatively about how to make sure that we land the best candidates and we make this the place that they want to stay in.
02:45.48
lauraklein
Yeah, so I mean they're really the experts in I mean attracting folks to the the org and doing all the like telling them about you know all the benefits and why people should come here and all of that. But but they're often not experts in.
02:50.67
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah.
03:02.66
lauraklein
The thing they're recruiting for you know the you know engineering or design or product management.
03:08.84
Tracy Kroop
That's true and actually some of the best recruitters that I've worked with are not ux experts. But that's where so that's where I think of it as um I was a consultant before my current role in Boomy. And I think of it similarly to the situations I was in as a consultant where we didn't have deep subject matter Expertise like we weren't and and we were very upfront about that we looked we looked at the needs of the organization and the tools that they were using and we knew how to. Observe and analyze user behavior and needs and we knew how to surface those needs in business tools and it didn't matter that we didn't have deep expertise in International and foreign exchange treating or higher education or government agencies.
03:57.58
lauraklein
Ah.
04:03.40
Tracy Kroop
Um, I'm not arguing that It's not helpful if you do it's It's the whole generalist specialist sort of debate. But that's what I think is true when working with recruiters too I mean I'm that subject matter expert.
04:09.23
lauraklein
It right.
04:20.26
Tracy Kroop
So If we have that strong relationship and we have that partnership their domain is how to reach candidates How to so how to advise and and provide guidance on structuring a strong offer. What are the ways in which we can close the gap if we're not completely aligned between their expectations and what we can offer like it's both and and I don't need somebody to duplicate what I do well and vice versa.
04:44.32
lauraklein
No, that's a great point that they don't They don't have to do that as long as they're willing to you know, bow to your expertise on who who you actually want to talk to I think that can be a challenge I mean let's let's let's talk about some of the ways it doesn't go well because I always find those stories to be the most fun? Um, ah.
04:53.10
Tracy Kroop
Um, here.
05:00.66
Tracy Kroop
Ah, you learn so much by what not to do as as well as well as what to do definitely.
05:03.36
lauraklein
Yeah, exactly yeah, what? what? what? not to do Tracy what goes badly.
05:10.94
Tracy Kroop
Oh what? not to do um in recruiting and so many other topics don't shut the conversation down open it Up. You know it's divergence and convergence and it's ebbing and Flowing. Um. Ask more questions than statements made especially in the early stages of a process do not make assumptions or at least acknowledge the assumptions you're making and then you know work to validate them. Um I don't mean validate them and then.
(00:31):
05:45.53
lauraklein
Um, I know I know ah work work to under Yes, well sure. Yeah.
05:47.51
Tracy Kroop
And let's confirm my bias then no different podcast but but I mean like ah you know strong opinions loosely held I'm open to being wrong. Um, ah what not to do so um.
06:03.39
lauraklein
And specifically like when working with a recruiter like what are there like when the recruiters What what happens when it goes bad What what makes it go bad.
06:10.42
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, um I am thinking this through because I'm sure that there are things that quote wrong from a hiring manager perspective as well as the the recruiter end of things. So um I think it's really helpful.
06:21.18
lauraklein
Um, oh sure I make all sorts of mistakes.
06:29.86
Tracy Kroop
Make no assumptions treat this like a project and have a kickoff I think part of it is building the relationship between hiring manager and recruiter if you haven't worked together before you haven't been working long. Um I think it's a q and a between those 2 roles. Here's what I'm looking for and or what are you looking for as a hiring manager here's what I'm looking for here's a general profile. Um here are places where I've had success recruiting from you know whether it's.
07:03.37
lauraklein
Who.
07:07.40
Tracy Kroop
The community or job fairs or University relations and specific programs If if you go the degree route um like brainstorming with your recruiting partner to think about the ways in which you can make sure that you. Maintain that Broad network and that you're casting a wide net and that you're finding the best talent from a pool of Diversity. So.
07:34.78
lauraklein
A lot I found that a lot of what I do is especially when working with a branding person is I spend a lot of that early time sort of calibrating and helping them recognize what I'm going to see as the right candidate for a particular role which is heart to. For me to do upfront it so hard for me to explain here's exactly the 3 things that you're looking for.. It's more sort of like show me some and I'll tell you what's wrong with them and we'll go from there. But.
07:55.88
Tracy Kroop
Right. Yeah, actually and yes and I realized that um in answering what doesn't go well I shifted it to what I want so that it does go well what doesn't go well is being too binary about it like how many years does this person have to have like. Look at the quality of experience. Not the quantity of experience I think as you get into more senior like highly senior roles and especially the management track. Um, it probably bodes. Well if you do have a minimum number of years experience. But I'm still looking more at the quality of the experience and in those senior levels. I need somebody who has been around long enough to have experienced failure and to have matured enough where they can talk about it without being defensive. So um, sticking too much to the number of years sticking too much to keywords and only keywords I think those things.
08:46.66
lauraklein
To hit.
08:55.45
lauraklein
Um.
08:59.82
Tracy Kroop
Narrow down your search and it cuts you off from a lot of potential talent.
09:02.26
lauraklein
And some recruiters really do focus on those keywords because I know that when they're sourcing when they're going out you know into you know Linkedin or or wherever and they're looking for resumes they're they're typing in keywords to find people and that can be so tricky because it doesn't always say.
09:11.75
Tracy Kroop
Event.
09:21.15
lauraklein
The exact words like there's I don't know what the magic words are.
09:21.49
Tracy Kroop
Writing I am not sure that I do either I mean I'm not I'm not closed off nor am I Naive to the fact that Keywords have to play a part in this I mean otherwise we're going to get so far. Off course. It would be like here is a lump of Click. That's that's meant that part at you know like you don't want to get so far off yeah, you don't want to get so far off course where you have somebody who doesn't meet.
09:47.69
lauraklein
Ah, that's okay, we'll cut that. Ah.
09:58.50
Tracy Kroop
Any of the requirements doesn't have any familiarity with what you do where you're investing more of your time teaching them what it is that we're hiring for and then making them someone who can perform well in that role like you know it. It can be so broad.
10:00.44
lauraklein
And.
10:11.18
lauraklein
Um, yeah, you need somebody who has some familiarity. Yes, ah.
(00:52):
10:17.70
Tracy Kroop
Exactly So there are some general Keywords that will get you in the right area but I I bristle at leaning on those Keywords as the driver of who's going to succeed Once you know they're in place.
10:30.40
lauraklein
Yeah, also titles let's talk about titles because boy boy are those boy are those sometimes deceptive I mean well and I say this as somebody who literally has I have on my resume I just full disclosure I have my resume I believe I have engineer um Vp of product.
10:34.28
Tracy Kroop
Yes. Um, yeah.
10:49.63
lauraklein
Um, ah you know Ux manager um not in that order like just all over the like everywhere and so if you look you know if you look at my resume. You would be hard pressed to understand what I could do.
10:56.11
Tracy Kroop
Um, ray.
11:07.30
Tracy Kroop
Here here.
11:08.88
lauraklein
Or what I would want to do and I you know I mean I could do any of those things I don't want to do most of those things. But.
11:14.98
Tracy Kroop
Yeah I mean titles aren't universal full stop at least not in our field titles are not universal and it doesn't it doesn't encapsulate the entirety of your experience or what you're capable of doing So I mean.
11:17.49
lauraklein
Yeah now.
11:34.51
Tracy Kroop
Also like I'm not ah I'm not in favor of removing all titles and and we're all we all do the same thing. No, we don't I've I've worked um I worked.
11:40.51
lauraklein
Um, Nope Absolutely Also not true. Absolutely Also not true. Ah.
11:47.51
Tracy Kroop
Ah, worked in organizations where they tried to go that route. It's like a variation on the flat hierarchy is like anyway um titles. Yes.
11:48.75
lauraklein
Um, yeah, so titles are very important, especially for folks I think who are underrepresented it in a lot of ways because like because they they mean something and often they will have to prove their Bona fides in a way that you and I maybe don't.
12:03.90
Tracy Kroop
Absolutely yep, but there's also a lot of creativity I mean explain to me what a Ux Ninja Rock Star is and what level they come into my organization as um, yeah.
12:07.11
lauraklein
Um, so yeah, so yeah, oh yeah.
12:17.44
lauraklein
Oh I forgot I also have webmistre on my resume but that's from the 90 s I pride I I also have webist on my resume but that's from the 90 s so it's probably fallen off by now. But.
12:22.83
Tracy Kroop
You also have what.
12:27.41
Tracy Kroop
Yeah I mean titles are not universal. Some titles are a little too creative to be helpful. Um, again, the titles are a guide but I'm going to look really closely at the quality of your experience. What did you do? What were the outcomes.
12:40.16
lauraklein
Um, and and what you did? Yeah yeah.
12:45.71
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, what did you learn from it where were the mistakes made. What do you wish you could go back in time and do differently all of that. Okay.
12:50.30
lauraklein
Yeah, even ux manager right? like which is which seems very straightforward and some places it's very much like oh you're gonna be half an ic you know and half some of them. It's like oh you are just going to do people management and other ones it's sort of like a weird kind of like oh you're.
(01:13):
13:04.19
Tracy Kroop
Um, right.
13:07.92
lauraklein
Guide projects but you know Also you're going to be a feltto Fuel's career progression higher and like who the hell knows right? like it could be any any all or none of those things and it seems so straightforward. Um, which isn't even getting into the like if you're at a small company.
13:13.35
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, yeah.
13:26.44
lauraklein
There is title inflation at small companies. Um, you know as there maybe should be because like you know you do become a director sooner I guess um like but.
13:26.94
Tracy Kroop
Right? There is.
13:34.10
Tracy Kroop
I was a director in my early to mid 20 s and now in my home. Yeah yeah.
13:37.17
lauraklein
Um, yeah, exactly it's ah yeah, ah yeah, me too I'm I'm in those? Ah yeah.
13:49.82
Tracy Kroop
And and so um, so yes, there is tidal inflation and also as organizations evolve. You know what got here won't get you there So there's the maturity and the evolution of titles within an organization I've done a lot of work to create levels in my organization where.
13:54.87
lauraklein
Um, yeah.
14:09.37
Tracy Kroop
Didn't exist for Ux and it's provided a lot of clarity in terms of what's expected and at what level and how consistently and you know it's hiring and then um, career coaching and growth and development like it's It's 1 large, very complex process and I think it all feeds into each other.
14:28.60
lauraklein
Yeah, but trying to explain that to a recruiter who maybe isn't a ux expert or an engineering or whatever you know like you know oh I think it's just as bad in engineering honestly where it's like oh you're a sweet three I don't know what.
14:35.66
Tracy Kroop
Um, right I.
14:44.77
Tracy Kroop
Oh right.
14:47.53
lauraklein
That is you know, like at the various different organizations and I've actually had recruiters reject people for having the wrong title sometimes too high a title when I'm like no no, no, no, that was too high a title at a 10 person company that is.
14:54.76
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, right. Right? Yeah, yeah, that again like I can't emphasize how much I value relationships enough that again is where the the relationship factor comes in and that's where the.
15:04.31
lauraklein
That does not apply here. But.
15:20.85
Tracy Kroop
Transparency and communication comes in because I do rely on my recruiting partners to help screen out some of the people that that aren't going to align. Yeah they they don't align to the goals and needs of the organization.
15:34.48
lauraklein
They're clearly wrong. Yeah, they're they're clearly not the right yet.
15:39.86
Tracy Kroop
It doesn't mean they don't deserve that role somewhere else. It just means that there are so many varieties and and companies have like that's the whole other topic. But.
15:44.13
lauraklein
Totally I I I work I work in Enterprise I spend a lot of time going. This person is a marvelous visual designer and illustrator and they should absolutely go and find a creative role that is not going to be.
15:55.17
Tracy Kroop
Right.
(01:34):
16:03.89
lauraklein
Working within a very strict design system on like ridiculous Enterprise Saas products where they will be miserable. Ah.
16:08.25
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, yeah, but like the back to what you were saying with the s sweet 3 and that kind of thing and how it correlates so software software engineer and level 3 Um, we.
16:15.58
lauraklein
Ah, um, software engineer yeah yeah software engineer 3 but
16:27.19
Tracy Kroop
We had that I think we still do to some extent but our company used to be part of a ah larger parent company. Um, we were part of delt and I mean Dell's core is engineering and so when I was building my organization we were.
16:34.73
lauraklein
Yeah.
16:46.10
Tracy Kroop
Everyone was a different flavor of engineer. Even if we weren't an engineer and that introduced a lot of confusion. It introduced a lot of confusion internally and externally internally once people and were in place were the expectations. What are the career Paths. What are the you know all of that. But then externally you would see these. Job postings on any number of sites and forums and it wasn't an accurate depiction in title alone of what the the role requires and so for job seekers who are likely scanning hundreds of titles a day. They're not going to click on everyone to see is this really an engineer or is it a Ux role. So it zack. Oh yeah, in mine too. But but that's one of the first things that we reconciled.
17:23.45
lauraklein
Um, yeah, like a Ux engineer is very different from a Ux designer in my book but maybe not Adele. But yeah, but.
17:41.91
Tracy Kroop
Um, as as ah, a newly independent company where to some extent like we still have the job families that aren't always super closely aligned and we're working on that but 1 big step. We've taken is to embrace the in our company we call it the business card title. Like if if your level is a software engineer to that translates to ah a ux designer or a you like or except right? What is it that you do because you're not a s sweet 3 what is it that you do.
18:10.67
lauraklein
Yeah, here's the human title. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
18:21.30
Tracy Kroop
So so that's what we've leaned on and that's that is now how we're able to post our positions too. So we're able to clarify a lot of the confusion from the onset.
18:28.33
lauraklein
Yeah, that that I would imagine helps quite a bit but it does like I said it does make it much more complicated for recruiters who are trying to sort through people's resumes if they've got these like weird things on there and I mean I think it does help explain to a lot of folks.
18:31.79
Tracy Kroop
Who in.
18:47.64
lauraklein
Who get their resumes rejected out of hand that it may just be confusing like the person who's looking at it may not be like they're they're trying to decipher a lot of these things and if yours is at all confusing like I mean mine is extremely confusing. You are maybe not going to be at the top of the list because they got to do a lot of work.
18:58.47
Tracy Kroop
Writing.
19:04.75
Tracy Kroop
Right? right? And well yeah, but also and saying ah the way you are describing your resume.
19:07.20
lauraklein
Figure out what you do.
19:13.79
lauraklein
Yes, and ah.
19:22.93
Tracy Kroop
Don't interpret that as confusing I mean you followed a really interesting nonlinear path. Um and and a lot of people that I've worked with in the past and currently have also followed nonlinear paths. They may have operated inside and outside of management tracks. They may have. Worked across numerous organizations. Um, and love that kind of exploration that kind of curiosity. 1 of our team's core values is curiosity. So that's in in my screening process and my hiring process. That's not a deal breaker and so again that is something I have to explicitly.
19:55.80
lauraklein
Interesting.
20:01.40
Tracy Kroop
Share with the recruiters I work with here's here's what works and here's what doesn't for my needs in the organization's needs and and so that's why when you asked earlier what doesn't work. It's sticking to too narrow a focus and too specific The Keywords and only the keywords.
20:06.60
lauraklein
Yeah.
(01:55):
20:20.38
Tracy Kroop
It's because it it shuts down that conversation and it narrows that range and and I don't want to do that and I don't have to.
20:24.78
lauraklein
Yeah, you know and I think it can be really like if you're not an expert in something and you see somebody who has a nice clear progression from they were an associate for this song and then they became a ux designer and then they were a senior ux designer and then maybe they wanted to manage it like you can kind of see that progression and that's a very easy.
20:34.33
Tracy Kroop
Then it.
20:43.25
lauraklein
Kind of yes, move them on to the next level. But if you see somebody who's let's look. We won't say confusing I'll say confused that's probably more more correct but it is. It is very hard to explain to a recruiter. No no send me the weirdos.
20:43.98
Tracy Kroop
Um, and Then. Um, it pick it.
20:55.66
Tracy Kroop
Um, yeah, yeah, keep you X weird.
20:59.30
lauraklein
Because all the weirdos are kind of weirdos in a different way I mean and again very much talking about myself here. So don't don't don't write it. Don't write in everybody. This is like this is me. We're talking about I'm I'm good with it I know what I am um but like yeah there you go like send me the send me more of the weirdos. So but not the kind of weirdos who had like no relevant experience. It's a tricky. It's hard to calibrate that even as a hiring manager with a lot of experience.
21:24.20
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, and that's where that initial kickoff if not the ongoing conversation is really essential because that's where some of this is a difference in philosophies and strategies across hiring Managers. So I Want my recruiting partners to know here are the types of experiences that are likely to translate Well so we work in a very technical space and within that technical Space. We have niche product experience.
21:49.50
lauraklein
See here.
22:02.84
Tracy Kroop
It is highly unlikely that I will find a product designer with deep experience in this product line and like it's it's too. It's too linear. It's or or not even linear. It's too rigid.
22:20.13
lauraklein
To death. So.
22:22.59
Tracy Kroop
So That's where I look for that's where I look for the attitude and the aptitude and so the job descriptions are written in a way where there's definitely specificity because people need that to know whether it's going to be a waste of their time but I don't want it to be overly prescriptive. So For instance I am not requiring that you have to have X number of years in the designs of Api Development portals. But I am going to look for technical experience. Have you have you been a product designer. In the Enterprise space have you been a product designer for B Two B and not B to C like web applications not consumer websites. Um, you know those kinds of things and so that's how I can work with the recruiter to shape the um.
23:17.60
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
23:18.31
Tracy Kroop
Shape that lump of Clay like I want to leave it open ended but not not vague and to me those are 2 very different things.
23:22.91
lauraklein
Um, yeah, know it it very much is and if you are open to so it's It's always funny because I always sort of think like there's this like very, there's this baseline of a whole bunch of different things like you have to have a little bit of experience in like all of these sort things but like those really our Baseline and I'm really not. Looking to hire somebody who's absolutely at the but the bare minimum of all of it I'm looking for people who are like but if you have like for example in that one might be like somebody who has a bunch of engineering experience also might might be super helpful and might push you up even if some of your other experiences might be a little bit.
23:44.48
Tracy Kroop
Right.
23:53.25
Tracy Kroop
Right.
24:01.45
Tracy Kroop
Frame.
24:01.65
lauraklein
You know so kind of trying to um, it's so funny because I'm waving my hands around which is not not really great for a podcast. Um, but you know yeah yeah there you go for for folks for for old folks who have seen a stereo equalizer I Always think of things like a stereo equalizer.
24:09.30
Tracy Kroop
But it helps me helps me understand you keep going.
24:19.62
lauraklein
Where you know you can kind of like raise the the level of this a little bit lower the level of this other thing and I think that that's that's that's a really good way of thinking about it for me. Yeah.
(02:16):
24:21.64
Tracy Kroop
Um, right? Oh yeah, totally yeah, we've explored this a number of ways in our team. Um, in terms of the various visualizations and graphs and the ways in which.
24:34.39
lauraklein
Is.
24:41.80
Tracy Kroop
This early on where I mapped out collectively I need the organization to have this level of expertise um in these specific areas across the evergrowing field of user experience I don't need nor expect. Any 1 person regardless of their seniority and experience I and expect any 1 person to be at the top of each of those areas. In fact I want to merge the individual not merge but overlap the individual.
25:08.62
lauraklein
So.
25:16.88
Tracy Kroop
Sort of graphs to see if we get the collective shape of what's needed in the organization. Um I've done that as an exercise with um with people when I interview them. Um, as a very quick thing like.
25:18.30
lauraklein
Yes.
25:36.80
Tracy Kroop
Um, basic vocabulary and familiarity strong competency or like deep expertise. This is my sham. Um, so it's like t-shirt sizing across different areas and then I ask them? um.
25:41.37
lauraklein
In here stretch.
25:51.16
lauraklein
T-shirt. So yeah here.
25:56.79
Tracy Kroop
So. The first question is how would you self-ass assess in these areas and then I've asked them to go back into it and say um once you've done that are there specific areas where you don't currently have expertise that you'd want to build it up. And likewise. Do you have specific expertise that you want to start backing away from and well I I modeled it on my own path. My background is in graphic design I spent years in graphic design and then didn't realize I was.
26:19.87
lauraklein
I Think that's such a good question. Ah.
26:27.00
lauraklein
Oh cool.
26:35.54
Tracy Kroop
Shifting into ux like I came from a holistic design program where you know you solve problems through design. Um, but at the time it was named as a graphic design program. So um, and I love being a people leader now. I love being a team builder I love being a mentor and coach I love solving the design or contributing to the design strategy of um and and not just not solely design but the the broader ux strategy of my organization. But I don't want to be the 1 crafting. Work anymore and so while I would probably still put myself as fairly high proficiency in visual design I don't have that same kind of interest in doing it anymore.
27:21.00
lauraklein
Right? I don't want to do it anymore. But it is nice to know because it's good because you can then evaluate other people's work. But yeah I got to say though it's interesting like when you're talking about trying to find folks who sort of overlap and trying to find you know like you're trying to fill.
27:28.62
Tracy Kroop
Um, right exactly.
27:40.52
lauraklein
Role I always think of it as like trying to fill roles and different people kind of fill different certain different roles to a certain extent that just ups the the complexity for working with it with ah a recruiter by like a thousand percent because it's no longer like.
27:55.80
Tracy Kroop
Yeah.
27:59.36
lauraklein
I'm hiring for a job and that job is this job that I can describe and you're going to go off and you're going to find me 3 people who do x it's like you're going to find me between 3 and 5 people who amongst them cover these.
28:14.78
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, yeah, and and that's where that's where I have taken the guidance of recruiters who say ah moving past the keywords.
28:18.24
lauraklein
Things and ah yeah.
28:32.97
Tracy Kroop
Are there are people who um, are currently on your team or even people who you know have been on your team in the past like is is there a profile that we could model the optimal candy over now that gets a little tricky too because I'm not looking for clones.
(02:37):
28:35.87
lauraklein
She.
28:50.24
lauraklein
I Have that person I don't need a segment. Yeah.
28:52.60
Tracy Kroop
Ah, you know 1 broad range right? However I can speak to a number of individuals who have succeeded um on on various levels for any number of reasons so I can take.
29:06.22
lauraklein
Oh my.
29:09.78
Tracy Kroop
I can take a person on my team and say this person did not have Sas experience coming in the door but they're exceptional. So see this is what I mean and and um and this person came to ux by way of um.
29:28.77
lauraklein
Oh those are great.
29:29.52
Tracy Kroop
Cognitive Psychology or or or an anthropology background and and so they brought in these skills of being able to analyze and observe human behavior Whether or not they're working in Ux research they understand.
29:37.95
lauraklein
And her.
29:49.41
Tracy Kroop
Importance of research they have the strong empathy to understand like they know how to create the the product that exceeds our user's expectations and so I can use some of these profiles as guidance for the discussions that we have. And still say I don't want you to find me a clone of this person I Want you to find somebody who has the lateral thinking abilities I Want you to find me somebody who has the insatiable curiosity I want somebody who um, is is.
30:10.31
lauraklein
Right.
30:28.26
Tracy Kroop
Open to trying new things and learning new things and doesn't get easily discouraged by something that proves itself to be really difficult because that's very much the space that we're In. It's challenging and that's that's the thing that keeps me here. But. It isn't for everybody for some people. It could be really flustering and and so let's do all of Us. You know a favor and figure out. Do We have what you're seeking and do you have what we're seeking.
30:58.83
lauraklein
I Think that's the the most important thing. What what do you think? the hardest thing is about about hiring right? Um because it is hard I mean it is it is It is not easy. Ah.
31:05.58
Tracy Kroop
Um, currently oh totally I Wish it was but it's never going to be um, what makes did you say hiring or recruiting I mean.
31:21.87
lauraklein
Hiring recruiting either? Yeah, all of it I mean.
31:24.19
Tracy Kroop
Um, I mean right now what makes recruiting right now in 2022 what makes recruiting so difficult is that we're all competing for the same talent I mean the opportunities are abundant and um. Um, really glad that I'm working for a company that has committed long term to the idea of remote working because while it doesn't it doesn't make it easy. It definitely makes the challenge easier because now I can seek the talent in whatever place people call home. So it. It casts a broader net and with that also comes its challenges too. But personally I've found it to be really liberating to be able to focus on who is going to be a great addition to the team rather than who's going to be a great addition to the team. And are they willing to relocate to the Philadelphia metro area.
32:21.10
lauraklein
Ah, yeah, are you are you are you fantastic at all these 17 things and also do you really like cheeseticks. Ah I mean yes, and yes, um, do you have any? you have any great stories about. But hiring any any just absolutely ridiculous. I've got so many ridiculous things that have happened when hiring and trying to be hired i.
32:39.74
Tracy Kroop
Oh my God Yeah um, you know we're always searching for that Great book idea right? I Wonder if I should write one on the interviews I've fled. Um.
32:47.97
lauraklein
I said.
32:55.42
Tracy Kroop
Or and in perhaps a chapter as a candidate the interviews I've been in but um, the one that comes to mind is this isn't ah a previous job. But there's a candidate who life tweeted the interview. Um.
33:08.89
lauraklein
I Think in a way I got I got to respect it and in another way. Holy shit. That's.
33:16.11
Tracy Kroop
I was so I was so intrigued it fascinated me because I mean the interview process is challenging as it is and there are a lot of schedules to coordinate and if it's done Well, you're meeting with a cross-section of people. It's not a singular person who will either paint.
(02:58):
33:23.85
lauraklein
Oh super hard. Yeah.
33:35.24
Tracy Kroop
Best possible picture and then it's even if they're truthful. It's not what you may experience like I you know I I think it a good. Ah good interview experience involves meeting with a crosssection of people that you'll be working with and so I was in an interview. With a Kennedy I I can't even I think the interview was fine like it didn't stand out one way or the other. But when I got back to my desk and the next duo went in for their for their segment you know I i. Did the required cyberstalking. How did they present themselves online and I found their Twitter account and I found that they were live tweeting the interview now they were generally favorable about the experience. So yay, but.
34:13.84
lauraklein
Yeah I look I look them up online. Yeah I Do oh admit, no.
34:30.56
Tracy Kroop
But it does call into question. Um, yeah, yeah should I finish should I finish that and sentence it calls into question. It's a lack of judgment. It's a lack of judgment.
34:32.52
lauraklein
Oh it calls into question. A lot of things. Yeah. Ah, it calls into question as somebody as somebody who is as somebody who is as we like to say terminally online that it that crosses the line even for me I mean that is very like unless you are applying for a social media expert job. Maybe I could see it. But for a ux designer I mean first of all, you're spending your like you're actually sitting there on your phone during the interview which is weird.
35:02.76
Tracy Kroop
Right? I I to be fair, if memory serves and my memory is years old but ah if memory serves they weren't on their phone during the actual interview. But as I took my leave and you know if there was a break or if somebody else was a minute or 2 from entering the room. That's when the live tweeting was happening and and and the thing is I mean you could argue how is that different from.
35:31.41
lauraklein
That's um, that's a thing.
35:39.75
Tracy Kroop
Experience like would it be different if you tweeted after the fact I think yes, how is it different from submitting your experiences on Glass door any number of other sites. The fact is it's different because you're doing this afterwards and in the interview process I Believe your focus should be on the interview. There are sometimes extenuating circumstances like it's It's definitely not a an unconditional requirement but I would argue that there's no need to live tweet your experience as you're hearing being hurtle.
36:12.99
lauraklein
I like I like how even getting your baby but I like I even ended your being about it and I've just kind of like you did fucking. What.
36:19.88
Tracy Kroop
Exactly I mean I was amused. It's definite I can't even remember how many years ago this was this was easily a decade ago.
36:22.81
lauraklein
Um, sure it I would say in fairness if they had been fantastic I might have just been like yeah okay I'm going to just accept the fact that they are going to be live tweeting. Absolutely everything that goes on and if that's the thing that I'm okay with then yeah, let's bring them in like that's.
36:42.17
Tracy Kroop
but but I I I thought a lot about this. Well I mean I I don't haven't spent the last ten years thinking about it. But at the time I was in client services and I was ah I was a consultant so how does that translate.
36:42.40
lauraklein
That's hilarious, but um, oh man, that's so gutsy.
37:01.14
Tracy Kroop
If you are live tweeting the interview which I think there's a a reasonable expectation for discretion and privacy. But if if we hired you and you go into these environments where I mean I I was in environments where I had.
37:08.73
lauraklein
Oh yeah, no, that's a hard now.
37:20.85
Tracy Kroop
Secret Clearance and I had to do background you know, um, you're vetted differently and you're signing various and ndas and I worked with Healthcare clients and like you're going into sensitive Situations. So this. Calls into question This person's ability to exercise good judgment because it's amusing in this situation but it can expose us to a lot of liability in a different situation.
37:48.29
lauraklein
Oh yeah, know there are absolutely or like the the situation you just described. That's a hard that's a hard pass on that person that no question I guess I you know maybe if you're replying it like Tiktok okay record the whole thing. It's fine. But yeah, but you're not you sure.
37:54.40
Tracy Kroop
11
38:02.66
Tracy Kroop
Yeah, but but this was before Tiktok and it was before like it was before social media specialists or like that role didn't really it was a highly niche thing if it existed at all ten years ago
38:06.70
lauraklein
Yeah, yeah.
38:16.10
lauraklein
So funny I mean I love this or and I'm I'm going to end on that because also that is all the time we have for today. Um I want to thank Tracy for joining us. Um I also want to thank all of you for listening and I want to wish everybody honestly the best of luck with your search whether it's for a new job or a new employee or a new. And knew anything I'm rooting for you.
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