August 13, 2023 • 30 mins
On this week’s episode, NALC President Brian L. Renfroe and Assistant to the President Ed Morgan discuss the Heat Illness Prevention Program (HIPP) and answer questions from the mailbag.
Have questions you'd like answered on the podcast? Email social@nalc.org.
Podcast episodes with closed captioning are available on our YouTube channel.
Keep up with NALC on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Threads!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello brothers, sisters and friends.
Welcome to the You are theCurrent Resident podcast.
This is the official podcast of the
National Association of Letter Carriers,the union that represents 280,000 active
and retired city letter carriers employedby the United States Postal Service.
I'm Ed Morgan, and sitting next to me isour national president, Brian Renfroe.
(00:27):
Hey Brian, how are you doing?Great Eddie.
Glad to be with you again.
So I know right after thisyou're headed out the door.
Where are you headed to?
Our brothers and sisters in Chicago inBranch 11 are having a rally really to get
the word out to the media and kind ofinform the public about some of the crime,
the robberies, the difficultythat we're having with that.
So just to raise awareness.
(00:49):
So I'm going to fly out there thisevening and take part in that.
We'll have several members of Congressthere and a lot of media coverage of it.
So hopefully that'll bring some awarenessto the issues that are going on there in
Chicago and can replicatethat in some other locations.
Looking forward to seeing ourgood folks there in Chicago.
Tell Elise I said hello.Will do.
So this week we want to get into questions
(01:11):
about HIPP, the HeatIllness Prevention Program.
Let's just get started.Here's some questions I came up with.
If we don't answer the questions that Ishould have asked that I missed, you can
always reach out to our Ask the Mailbagsegment at social@nalc.org. For those of
our listeners that don'tknow, what is HIPP training?
So HIPP as you mentioned, stands forHeat Illness Prevention Program.
(01:34):
And this is a program, a plan that the
Postal Service has had inplace for a few years now.
And essentially what it's designed to dois include several different elements that
should protect workers fromthe hazard of extreme heat.
The plan that's in place, that the thingsthat are there are a piece of that plan
are certainly important, but there arethings in our view that are missing and we
(01:57):
may get into a little more ofthat as we move through this.
But just on a basic level, I think it'spretty evident, it's actually scientific
fact that the temperaturesgo up every year.
So the hazard that in the majority of thecountry we face every summer, that letter
carriers face in terms of working in theextreme heat as it continues to grow,
there's a diligence that's requiredin order for us to be safe.
(02:21):
And this is the program that the PostalService, through a lot of different areas,
working with the Occupational Safety andHealth Administration, OSHA, which is part
of the Department of Labor and dealingwith us directly over the years has been a
result and it's a programthat's in place right now.
Can you give me a little history on HIPP?Sure.
(02:43):
For a long time the Postal Servicedid not have a national HIPP.
And if we rewind about ten years and go
back to 2012, 2013, somewhere in that timeframe, we began to see an increase in the
number of letter carriers thatsuffered from heat illness.
And unfortunately, over the years, we've
(03:04):
even had a few deaths asa result of heat illness.
So I mentioned OSHA earlier.
They began to issue citations against thePostal Service, where you had employees,
some rural carriers, but mostly citycarriers, that suffered from heat illness
as a result of the work they weredoing every day out on the street.
(03:24):
And the Postal Service in some of those
cases did not take what OSHAviewed and certainly NALC viewed.
Management, mostly at the local level, didnot take the appropriate steps that they
should have to protect those employeesfrom the hazards of extreme heat.
So there is a process internallywhere OSHA brings citations.
(03:46):
They have a litigation process where OSHA
attorneys essentially prosecute thesecitations against the Postal Service in
front of what's called anadministrative law judge.
And OSHA has a number ofthose, we call them ALJs.
The first one that they prosecuted that we
were pretty deeply involved in wasout of Independence, Missouri.
(04:07):
And there was a settlement reached in thatcase that the Postal Service would come up
with a plan that would apply toIndependence, because this affects, of
course, our wages, hoursand working conditions.
Article 19 of our collective bargaining
agreement gives the union the rightto negotiate over such things.
So in order for them to design thatplan, they had to negotiate it with us.
(04:28):
Back then, I was the Director of City
Delivery, and along with my counterpart atthe time at the Postal Service, we did
negotiate a plan for Independence,Missouri, that just applied to that
installation be cause thatwas what OSHA told us to do.
So over the years after that, there have
been a number of other instances of OSHAfiling citations, and they decided back, I
(04:50):
think around 2018, rather than issuecitations and try to quote, prosecute each
of these cases individually, thatOSHA would group them together.
And their goal was to push the Postal
Service into a place where they had todevelop a national heat illness prevention
program without kind of nerding out andgoing in depth on all of the litigation
(05:13):
that took place that we wereinvolved in with our attorneys.
I testified in a lot of those proceedings.
OSHA was not successful.
However, the Postal Service did decide, I
think, just based on the fact that thishad been a recurring issue, obviously a
lot of conversation and pressure from usand collective bargaining and other areas
that they would develop a nationalHIPP to protect employees.
(05:36):
We worked with them.
You could say in some sense thatit's a negotiated agreement.
There are pieces to that that include
things like training at thebeginning, which is very important.
There are other pieces of information thathas to be posted in different places.
But the education pieceis really most important.
So that's a little bit of a brief historyof how we arrived at the current HIPP.
(05:58):
But as I mentioned earlier, there areelements that really are accepted by
experts in this field broadly,that are missing from the plan.
And we continue to this day to work toincorporate those, be it through OSHA,
working with the folks overat the Department of labor.
This is something I've spoken to the
Secretary of Labor about and just recentlyhad a conversation with her about this.
(06:21):
And ultimately, our goal is to achieve aplan that is comprehensive, that indeed
protects our members from thehazards of excessive heat.
So what was the Postal Service supposedto do with the training this year?
Yeah, so as I mentioned, a key element isactually an entire section in the plan.
And if you want to read the HIPP itself,you can go to our website, nalc.org. Go to
(06:44):
the Safety and Health page and you'll seea plethora of information there that Manny
Peralta, our Director of Safety andHealth, has put together on not just
excessive heat, but alltypes of extreme weather.
But in particular, this plan is there.
An entire section is devotedto training and education.
So every year by April 1, every city
carrier and manager is supposed to betrained on the elements of this HIPP.
(07:09):
This is crucial not just because, ofcourse, people need to know about the plan
itself and whose responsibilitiesare what, all of that type stuff.
But it's also important on an individualbasis for our members to understand the
symptoms, to understand the warning signsand the things that they can look for if
(07:30):
they're out there workingin excessive heat.
Because what we've seen in a lot of cases
where we have folks that suffer from heat,illness is it's the type of illness that
often before you understand or realizethat you are becoming ill, it's too late.
You're already past the point ofmitigation, let's call it, where if you
were to recognize those signs, you cantake breaks, you can get into a shaded
(07:55):
area, an air conditioned area,obviously drinking water.
I mean, kind of common sense things, but
the body doesn't always feel it unlessyou're aware of what those signs are.
So that education piece is very important,not just for the plan in general, but also
for the individual just to understand whatthey should look for and if they begin to
feel a certain way, the steps theyshould take to protect themselves.
(08:18):
So shockingly, it seems, that the USPS d
idn't give this training or even maybeeven falsified giving the training.
Do you want to get into that at all?Yeah.
So we began this summer, as I'm sure a lotof you that are listening, just becoming
aware of folks either, as you mentioned,A, not receiving the training or in some
(08:39):
cases where maybe some in a particularwork location did and others didn't.
And then also going in and looking at our
training records and indicating thatpeople had the train that did not.
Because that informationis really anecdotal.
You hear it from several locations,but it's a really big country.
We began to gather this information.
(09:00):
Each of our national business agents,they've got a list of all the work
locations for city carriers within theirregions, and they're currently working
with the branches to just indicatewhether the training was done?
Yes.Was it not done?
No.
Or in the instance I described, if it waspartially done and put all that together
so we can have that here at headquarters,give us a clear picture of and then go
(09:22):
compare that with the folks over thePostal Service to what their records show.
I suspect there'll be a pretty large
discrepancy there and if indeed that turnsout to be the case, we'll know the scope
of it and we'll be in betterposition to address it.
I will say that they are aware at
headquarters, the PostalService, that this is an issue.
(09:44):
I think us being able to demonstrate to
them how widespread the issue is willdefinitely put us in a position and then
give them a better understanding of whataction we need to take to correct it.
Not just now, this year, butas we look forward to 2024.
And I think if we're able to continue togather this information, sit down with
(10:06):
them, that the training will looka lot different come next spring.
And ultimately that's what we want toachieve is for our members to be trained
on this, for managers to be trained onthis, and so they're in a better position
to actually follow the plan and ultimatelyprotect our members from excessive heat.
You sort of answered this partially, but
what are our options after wedo this thorough fact finding?
(10:29):
Yeah, there's a number of things.
I mean, the first is obviously just
conversations with the Postal Service overthere, letting them know, I suspect that
they will be willing to addressthis at the highest levels.
But there's others too.
There's our communications with folks atOSHA and over at the Department of Labor
and we will definitelymake them aware of this.
(10:49):
And then there's other possibilities.
We have the ability to doa lot of different things.
There's potential legal avenues.
There's obviously things in ourcollective bargaining agreement.
This could some point turn into a national
level grievance if that's thedirection we feel like we need to go.
So there's a number ofdifferent opportunities there.
Could you explain what anational level grievance is?
(11:12):
Sure.So a national level is in a lot of ways
similar but in a lot of ways verydifferent from the grievance procedure at
the local level that a lot of youlistening to this are familiar with.
They typically fall intoone of two categories.
Category number one is whatwe call interpretive issues.
So those are grievances that often ariseout in the field where it involves an
(11:35):
issue of interpretation of whatlanguage in the contract means.
Then there is also the possibility of
national grievances sometime arise from aprocess that through Article 19 where the
postal service will propose changes or thecreation of handbooks and manuals that
affect our wages, hoursand working conditions.
(11:57):
And then that Article 19 of our agreementessentially says if anything that they do
affects wages, hoursand working conditions.
It's a subject to collectivebargaining for us.
So there's a process in our collective
bargaining agreement where they haveto notify us of proposed changes.
There's a time period for us to review and
discuss them and then we can appeal themto national arbitration that's kind of
(12:18):
sometimes referred to asa national grievance.
Then there's just simply violations
that are just contractual in naturethat have a very broad impact.
So things that are for example, this would
not be something typically that alocal manager just chose to do.
But a recent national grievance that we
(12:39):
have that's pending right now has to dowith the security of PostalEASE in
LiteBlue that resulted in a few hundredof our members not receiving a paycheck.
That's the type of issue that we would
grieve as just a straight Article 15type grievance at the national levels.
There's multiple ways.
This is one that would potentially could
(12:59):
become a national grievance, justthat this hip training is out there.
Article 14 on safety and health has very
firm commitment really from both partiesthat are party to the agreement in terms
of the things we'll dofor health and safety.
So this could potentially turninto a national grievance.
My preference would be to get it addressed
(13:22):
outside of that process becausethat typically happens quicker.
But if we're not able to do that, then wecertainly won't hesitate to go in the
direction of a grievance if that's whatwe need to do to get it addressed.
I know putting the cartbefore the horse here.
We want to get this solved at the easiestlevel possible and the lowest level
possible, or of course in yourway the highest level possible.
(13:44):
But how would a national grievance work
and what kind of realistic timelinedo national grievances have?
I know we're talking in generalities here,but I know our members kind of have
questions along these linesand why does it take so long?
Or why does it take as long as it takesI guess would be a better question.
Yeah, they do sometimes take a while.
(14:05):
Scheduling of national hearings for
national grievances is verydifferent than at the local level.
Basically the parties have to agree ofwhich case we're going to schedule.
So currently right now we have a very
small number of pendinggrievances at the national level.
Probably the fewest we've had in along, long time for a few reasons.
(14:27):
Number one, we've done a pretty good job
over the last six, eight years,I guess, of resolving them.
The ones that were pending, we did have a
few that came up as a resultof the 2019 agreement.
Anytime you have a new collective
bargaining agreement, the possibilityfor those interpretive issues is there.
We were able to work througheach of those and resolve those.
(14:47):
So we have a pretty low caseload.
I think we only have four or five that are
pending right now, but it does take longerbecause once one is initiated, you have
the scheduling process with a nationalarbitrator, which is different than the
arbitrators you may see at the locallevel or at the regional level.
So the regional level, each of our regionshas a panel of arbitrators that hear their
(15:10):
cases, and there's prioritization forcertain types of cases, and those are
scheduled through our NBA office workingwith the postal service every month.
At the national level, we havecurrently one national arbitrator.
His name is Dennis Nolan.
We do not have, as I mentioned, very manycases pending, and when we solicit dates
from him, he will give us a numberof dates throughout the year.
(15:34):
We have to agree to schedule that case.
What has happened over the last few years
is the most recent cases that we've hadcome up have been the cases that we have
gotten the postal serviceto agree to schedule.
Now, most of those have been resolved, butif we were to initiate another grievance
here, we would probably be looking atdates late this year or sometime in 2024.
(15:58):
We would have to agree withthem to schedule the case.
Then there's also the piece that once anational grievance is filed on an issue,
any grievances that are pending orinitiated thereafter at the local level or
that could be an informalA or formal A or step B.
Or even if they're impassed through
arbitration, those cases get held for thatnational until that national case is
(16:21):
resolved, be it through settlementor through an arbitrator's award.
So the impact of having that national
case, the time it usually takes to getthem scheduled, is not just with that
particular case because all theother cases out there are held.
Our process moves very fast compared to
our sister unions, who most of them havemore cases pending than we do, but it's
(16:44):
still at the national level isjust by the nature of the process.
And the fact that we have one arbitrator,it does mean that
I won't say it always takes longer than aregional grievance, but it is usually a
matter of months before we're ableto get it forward to hearings.
We certainly want to make a differencewith this particular issue as soon as we
can and be in a position where when weroll around to next spring, we're in a
(17:08):
place to have a lot better trainingconducted and get our folks educated.
And ultimately, as I mentioned earlier,
protect us from the hazard that thisplan is intended to protect us from.
Okay, so what should every steward be
doing right now in terms of theirinvestigation for this HIPP training?
Yeah, just if you don't know already, findout did the training happen or did it not?
(17:29):
And let your branch or your NBA office
know that that is themost important thing.
If you have instances of your local
management trying to push people things,like asking them about stationary events
or telling people know they can't takecomfort stops or rest breaks they need for
(17:50):
heat, any of that kind of stuff that couldpotentially be subject of a grievance.
If it's something where
someone is consistently pushed and they'renot feeling well or unfortunately, it
results in some type of heat injury, besure to communicate that to your branch.
Let your NBA office know that's the kindof stuff that's useful to us up here.
And we've had a pretty good successrate in getting those things addressed.
(18:13):
So those are the main things right now.
Essentially, it's just doing the job of a
steward and enforcing the collectiveborrowing agreement, but also
understanding that when it comes to theheat, just like the cold, and when that's
extreme in some places, that doing whatneeds to be done to keep our people safe.
And the last thing is just encourage.
If you're a steward out there, you're bynature of your position, a leader in your
(18:38):
station where you work, encourage thefolks you work with, your brothers and
sisters, to be sure they're educatedthemselves on what the warning signs of
heat, illness are, what they shouldlook for, any type of information.
As I mentioned, a lotavailable on our website.
You could get out to them, but that wouldbe something that you could do to help
(19:00):
your brothers and sisters out, just to besure that they understand what to look for
and what they need to dothemselves to avoid that hazard.
And it's always a good timeto thank your steward.
I just want to thank all the stewards outthere to do a great job defending our
brothers and sisters on theworkroom floor every day.
You guys are tremendous.
(19:20):
Yes.Okay.
And our last question we got is what
should every member be doingin terms of heat safety?
Just educate yourself.
This is one of those issues where
regardless of what the Postal Service doesor doesn't do, regardless of what your
manager may tell you or try to push you todo, we all have the ability to protect
(19:41):
ourselves here, and that canonly come through education.
You being aware of what you need to do
very simple things oftaking care of yourself.
Like if it's a really hot day, it'stoo late to start drinking water.
Once you get out there and get hot, begin
hydrating early in the morningand just take care of yourself.
There's nothing that can happen out there.
(20:03):
There's nothing that's important enoughfor any letter carrier out there for us to
put ourselves in danger, become familiarwith the warning signs and all that stuff,
as I mentioned, is outthere on our website.
And most importantly, justtake care of yourself.
Great.Those are the questions I had about HIPP.
If I missed your question or you want to
(20:23):
add to our question list, we alwayshave our Ask the Mailbag segment.
In future episodes, we can circle back and
try to answer your questions on Hip or anyquestions you have involving our union.
You can ask our mailbag at
social@nalc.org. All right, so nowwe're in our Ask the Mailbag segment.
(20:44):
We have a question from Glenn Gibson.
If you ever do put in your questions,make sure you leave your branch.
We'd like to know where from aroundthe country you're listening.
Glenn Gibson wants to know.
He'd like to see training nationally for
basic items like how to file a grievance,key features of our contract that come up
often, and when references are madeto the contract, where to find them.
(21:04):
He just really wants to know.He's a shop steward.
He wants to get more involved and hewants more information and more training.
Can you talk about any kind ofupcoming training we're going to have?
Yeah.So Glenn, that's a great question.
And you asked the question to the rightpeople, because there's no folks around
here that love trainingmore than Eddie and I.
I'm really excited about this.
(21:26):
So we are working really hard, a number of
our headquarters officers and staffershere and more of our folks out in the
field that are working with us onexpanding the type of training that we
create and offer from theheadquarters level in 2024.
That includes traditional trainingthat we do in a classroom setting.
(21:47):
Something similar to those of you out
there that may have attended your NBAholding their regional training or your
branch may potentially do some trainingthere, but to increase the number of
things that we offerfrom headquarters level.
And I think the place to start is exactly
where you started, and thatis with steward training.
That's basic on the grievance procedure as
(22:07):
well as all the otherduties of a shop steward.
So this could expandinto all sorts of areas.
And our eventual goal is to offer trainingfor every person that's out there that's
an activist that wants to beinvolved in whatever area that is.
If that's as shop steward, a grievancerepresentative, if that's representing our
(22:29):
members in OWCP, if that's someone that'sinvolved legislatively and politically, if
you're someone that's involved incommunity service, potentially doing more
along the lines of the current branchofficer training that we have, there's all
kinds of opportunities that are outthere, and we're working hard on that.
And we intend to later on this fall, kind
(22:50):
of introduce and roll out what weplan to do for 2024 and beyond.
That's kind of in the classroom setting.
And another things that I'll mention that
I hope will really resonate with thoseof you that are podcast listeners.
Eddie and I are both pretty prolificpodcast listeners if you're involved in
social media is to supplementall this in person training.
(23:11):
We are also in the process of developingonline kind of web based things that
people can do on their own throughelearning expanding the things that we
make available throughour members only portal.
So all of that stuff will all be part of
this kind of rollout and the packagewe're talking about for next year.
So we're excited about taking advantageof every opportunity we have to give.
(23:34):
We already have, if not the most active,certainly one of the most active
memberships among anyunion in this country.
I mean, that's pretty well knownaround this city in Washington, DC.
And we're excited about giving our folksthe opportunity know, look, even if you're
not in a position because of whatevercircumstances, to attend in person
training, things that youcan do on your own to learn.
(23:56):
So we've got a lot of really intelligent,dedicated, smart people working on that
stuff and we're excitedto get that out to you.
So I'm sure you'll hear moreabout that in future episodes.
But really good question.Yeah.
Thanks, Glenn.
Our next question comes from Jim Adcockand he wants to know when is this terrible
legislation, the Windfall EliminationProvision, going to be amended?
(24:19):
He knows that Congress never likes to give
us our money back, but he would reallylike some relief for the retirees.
So can you just give us anupdate on the WEP/GPO bills?
Sure.
So, another really good question, and forthose that are listening
that may not be as familiar with it,let me give a very brief background.
This has to do with Social Security.
(24:41):
So there are two things that are out therethat are part of the existing law that
came about in the 1980s called theWindfall Elimination Provision or WEP, WEP
and the government pensionoffset called GPO.
In a nutshell, what these do is for a lotof retirees, in our case civil service
(25:03):
retirees, for the most part, it unfairlyreduces your Social Security benefits.
It's a little bit complicated in termsof the impact on each individual.
Trust me, if you're out there and you're
impacted, you know what it is becauseyou're not getting the money that you
essentially earn by paying intothe Social Security system.
The idea legislatively would be just
(25:24):
simply to repeal those two provisionsthat are in the current law.
There is a bill out there right now.
It is H.R. 82, ironically the same numberas the bill was in the previous Congress.
We currently have a bipartisan majority of
that Congress of the House that areco sponsoring that bill, 288 of them.
(25:44):
It is the leading sponsor on the bill thatactually introduced the bill is
Congressman Garrett Gravesfrom the state of Louisiana.
This was his first time leading it.
Previously a great friend to letter
carriers, Rodney Davis, a formerCongressman from Illinois, a Republican,
had led this bill for usfor the last several.
(26:04):
Unfortunately, because of a change in
districts, he lost in a primary,so he's no longer here.
But Congressman Graves has been excellent.
We do have a lot of co sponsors.
I encourage you to check out our websiteand go to congress.gov, if you're a member
of Congress, is not aco sponsor of H.R. 82.
It's called the SocialSecurity Fairness Act.
(26:25):
Ask them to co sponsor it.
But I think it's important to point out
and just be realistic about wherewe are in this particular Congress.
The chances of passing this legislation inthis House of Representatives with the
current leadership in the House ofRepresentatives,
I won't say it's impossible, butit certainly is challenging.
(26:46):
This is a piece of legislation that
affects not just postal retirees, but justmillions of people around the country.
In some cases, if folks worked and have a
local or state retirement,that could also be impacted.
So while the prospects of getting it
through this House in 2023, 2024definitely have challenges.
(27:10):
I would also remind you if you think ofthe postal reform bill that we passed was
signed into law last year, that's a pieceof legislation that over a ten to twelve
year period we worked onin every single Congress.
And while it can be frustrating to work on
it and get co sponsors and build support,if you go back to, let's say 2010, 2011,
(27:34):
those of you that were involvedlegislatively and politically then if you
talked about pre funding, peoplewould look at you like you were nuts.
They had no idea what you were talkingabout because of the work that we did.
And by we I mean all of our members,
certainly our peoplehere in Washington, DC.
Just as importantly, if not more, know thework that our members have done with our
(27:55):
members of Congress at the local, knoweducating your friends and know the media.
As we worked every Congress on different
pieces of legislation to repeal that prefunding, though we were not successful
until the Congress that wassworn in in January of 2021.
We raised that education level in every
(28:15):
single Congress to the point where anelection went a certain way in 2020.
The right leadership was in place in theHouse, not just in the House and in the
Senate, but also in thecommittees of jurisdiction.
That's important too.
And this repeal of pre funding was justthe universally accepted fix and that was
(28:38):
not the case before going backto H.R. 82 to repeal the.
WEP and the GPO, even if we're notsuccessful in getting that done in this
Congress, the work we do for the rest ofthis year and next year is still very
important because it builds support, itraises awareness, it raises education.
(28:59):
That when an election goes the right way,
and hopefully that's in 2024, the rightleadership is in place in both houses of
Congress, in the committees ofjurisdiction, and also in the White House.
You are primed to pass a pieceof legislation like this.
That was a long answer to a shortquestion, but I think that's important
that it takes all of us and we'llcontinue to lobby here in DC.
(29:23):
And based on the fact that we've alreadygot 288 co sponsors, I feel certain that
our folks out in the field, our stateassociations, our letter carrier
congressional liaisons in every districtwill keep working hard to educate our
members and grow thatnumber of co sponsors.
Great.Thank you.
All right, Brian, that's goingto end the show for this week.
As always, I want to thank you for your
(29:44):
time, and I just want tothank all our listeners.
Thank you for listening to this episodeof You Are the Current Resident podcast.
Please subscribe to the podcast so thatyou don't miss an episode, and please
share the podcast with ourNALC brothers and sisters.
We do have our Ask the Mailbag segment.
If you want question asked and answered,
submit your questions to social@nalc.org.You can follow the NALC on social media,
(30:11):
on Facebook, Twitter,Instagram and threads.
You can find links to our accounts in theepisode description, and you can follow
President Renfro on Twitter at@BrianRenfroe19.
Thank you again for listening.
Make your steward be by your sideand your union have your back.
Thanks.
Hello brothers, sisters and friends.
Welcome to the You are theCurrent Resident podcast.
This is the official podcast of the
National Association of Letter Carriers,the union that represents 280,000 active
and retired city letter carriers employedby the United States Postal Service.
I'm Ed Morgan, and sitting next to me isour national president, Brian Renfroe.
(00:27):
Hey Brian, how are you doing?Great Eddie.
Glad to be with you again.
So I know right after thisyou're headed out the door.
Where are you headed to?
Our brothers and sisters in Chicago inBranch 11 are having a rally really to get
the word out to the media and kind ofinform the public about some of the crime,
the robberies, the difficultythat we're having with that.
So just to raise awareness.
(00:49):
So I'm going to fly out there thisevening and take part in that.
We'll have several members of Congressthere and a lot of media coverage of it.
So hopefully that'll bring some awarenessto the issues that are going on there in
Chicago and can replicatethat in some other locations.
Looking forward to seeing ourgood folks there in Chicago.
Tell Elise I said hello.Will do.
So this week we want to get into questions
(01:11):
about HIPP, the HeatIllness Prevention Program.
Let's just get started.Here's some questions I came up with.
If we don't answer the questions that Ishould have asked that I missed, you can
always reach out to our Ask the Mailbagsegment at social@nalc.org. For those of
our listeners that don'tknow, what is HIPP training?
So HIPP as you mentioned, stands forHeat Illness Prevention Program.
(01:34):
And this is a program, a plan that the
Postal Service has had inplace for a few years now.
And essentially what it's designed to dois include several different elements that
should protect workers fromthe hazard of extreme heat.
The plan that's in place, that the thingsthat are there are a piece of that plan
are certainly important, but there arethings in our view that are missing and we
(01:57):
may get into a little more ofthat as we move through this.
But just on a basic level, I think it'spretty evident, it's actually scientific
fact that the temperaturesgo up every year.
So the hazard that in the majority of thecountry we face every summer, that letter
carriers face in terms of working in theextreme heat as it continues to grow,
there's a diligence that's requiredin order for us to be safe.
(02:21):
And this is the program that the PostalService, through a lot of different areas,
working with the Occupational Safety andHealth Administration, OSHA, which is part
of the Department of Labor and dealingwith us directly over the years has been a
result and it's a programthat's in place right now.
Can you give me a little history on HIPP?Sure.
(02:43):
For a long time the Postal Servicedid not have a national HIPP.
And if we rewind about ten years and go
back to 2012, 2013, somewhere in that timeframe, we began to see an increase in the
number of letter carriers thatsuffered from heat illness.
And unfortunately, over the years, we've
(03:04):
even had a few deaths asa result of heat illness.
So I mentioned OSHA earlier.
They began to issue citations against thePostal Service, where you had employees,
some rural carriers, but mostly citycarriers, that suffered from heat illness
as a result of the work they weredoing every day out on the street.
(03:24):
And the Postal Service in some of those
cases did not take what OSHAviewed and certainly NALC viewed.
Management, mostly at the local level, didnot take the appropriate steps that they
should have to protect those employeesfrom the hazards of extreme heat.
So there is a process internallywhere OSHA brings citations.
(03:46):
They have a litigation process where OSHA
attorneys essentially prosecute thesecitations against the Postal Service in
front of what's called anadministrative law judge.
And OSHA has a number ofthose, we call them ALJs.
The first one that they prosecuted that we
were pretty deeply involved in wasout of Independence, Missouri.
(04:07):
And there was a settlement reached in thatcase that the Postal Service would come up
with a plan that would apply toIndependence, because this affects, of
course, our wages, hoursand working conditions.
Article 19 of our collective bargaining
agreement gives the union the rightto negotiate over such things.
So in order for them to design thatplan, they had to negotiate it with us.
(04:28):
Back then, I was the Director of City
Delivery, and along with my counterpart atthe time at the Postal Service, we did
negotiate a plan for Independence,Missouri, that just applied to that
installation be cause thatwas what OSHA told us to do.
So over the years after that, there have
been a number of other instances of OSHAfiling citations, and they decided back, I
(04:50):
think around 2018, rather than issuecitations and try to quote, prosecute each
of these cases individually, thatOSHA would group them together.
And their goal was to push the Postal
Service into a place where they had todevelop a national heat illness prevention
program without kind of nerding out andgoing in depth on all of the litigation
(05:13):
that took place that we wereinvolved in with our attorneys.
I testified in a lot of those proceedings.
OSHA was not successful.
However, the Postal Service did decide, I
think, just based on the fact that thishad been a recurring issue, obviously a
lot of conversation and pressure from usand collective bargaining and other areas
that they would develop a nationalHIPP to protect employees.
(05:36):
We worked with them.
You could say in some sense thatit's a negotiated agreement.
There are pieces to that that include
things like training at thebeginning, which is very important.
There are other pieces of information thathas to be posted in different places.
But the education pieceis really most important.
So that's a little bit of a brief historyof how we arrived at the current HIPP.
(05:58):
But as I mentioned earlier, there areelements that really are accepted by
experts in this field broadly,that are missing from the plan.
And we continue to this day to work toincorporate those, be it through OSHA,
working with the folks overat the Department of labor.
This is something I've spoken to the
Secretary of Labor about and just recentlyhad a conversation with her about this.
(06:21):
And ultimately, our goal is to achieve aplan that is comprehensive, that indeed
protects our members from thehazards of excessive heat.
So what was the Postal Service supposedto do with the training this year?
Yeah, so as I mentioned, a key element isactually an entire section in the plan.
And if you want to read the HIPP itself,you can go to our website, nalc.org. Go to
(06:44):
the Safety and Health page and you'll seea plethora of information there that Manny
Peralta, our Director of Safety andHealth, has put together on not just
excessive heat, but alltypes of extreme weather.
But in particular, this plan is there.
An entire section is devotedto training and education.
So every year by April 1, every city
carrier and manager is supposed to betrained on the elements of this HIPP.
(07:09):
This is crucial not just because, ofcourse, people need to know about the plan
itself and whose responsibilitiesare what, all of that type stuff.
But it's also important on an individualbasis for our members to understand the
symptoms, to understand the warning signsand the things that they can look for if
(07:30):
they're out there workingin excessive heat.
Because what we've seen in a lot of cases
where we have folks that suffer from heat,illness is it's the type of illness that
often before you understand or realizethat you are becoming ill, it's too late.
You're already past the point ofmitigation, let's call it, where if you
were to recognize those signs, you cantake breaks, you can get into a shaded
(07:55):
area, an air conditioned area,obviously drinking water.
I mean, kind of common sense things, but
the body doesn't always feel it unlessyou're aware of what those signs are.
So that education piece is very important,not just for the plan in general, but also
for the individual just to understand whatthey should look for and if they begin to
feel a certain way, the steps theyshould take to protect themselves.
(08:18):
So shockingly, it seems, that the USPS d
idn't give this training or even maybeeven falsified giving the training.
Do you want to get into that at all?Yeah.
So we began this summer, as I'm sure a lotof you that are listening, just becoming
aware of folks either, as you mentioned,A, not receiving the training or in some
(08:39):
cases where maybe some in a particularwork location did and others didn't.
And then also going in and looking at our
training records and indicating thatpeople had the train that did not.
Because that informationis really anecdotal.
You hear it from several locations,but it's a really big country.
We began to gather this information.
(09:00):
Each of our national business agents,they've got a list of all the work
locations for city carriers within theirregions, and they're currently working
with the branches to just indicatewhether the training was done?
Yes.Was it not done?
No.
Or in the instance I described, if it waspartially done and put all that together
so we can have that here at headquarters,give us a clear picture of and then go
(09:22):
compare that with the folks over thePostal Service to what their records show.
I suspect there'll be a pretty large
discrepancy there and if indeed that turnsout to be the case, we'll know the scope
of it and we'll be in betterposition to address it.
I will say that they are aware at
headquarters, the PostalService, that this is an issue.
(09:44):
I think us being able to demonstrate to
them how widespread the issue is willdefinitely put us in a position and then
give them a better understanding of whataction we need to take to correct it.
Not just now, this year, butas we look forward to 2024.
And I think if we're able to continue togather this information, sit down with
(10:06):
them, that the training will looka lot different come next spring.
And ultimately that's what we want toachieve is for our members to be trained
on this, for managers to be trained onthis, and so they're in a better position
to actually follow the plan and ultimatelyprotect our members from excessive heat.
You sort of answered this partially, but
what are our options after wedo this thorough fact finding?
(10:29):
Yeah, there's a number of things.
I mean, the first is obviously just
conversations with the Postal Service overthere, letting them know, I suspect that
they will be willing to addressthis at the highest levels.
But there's others too.
There's our communications with folks atOSHA and over at the Department of Labor
and we will definitelymake them aware of this.
(10:49):
And then there's other possibilities.
We have the ability to doa lot of different things.
There's potential legal avenues.
There's obviously things in ourcollective bargaining agreement.
This could some point turn into a national
level grievance if that's thedirection we feel like we need to go.
So there's a number ofdifferent opportunities there.
Could you explain what anational level grievance is?
(11:12):
Sure.So a national level is in a lot of ways
similar but in a lot of ways verydifferent from the grievance procedure at
the local level that a lot of youlistening to this are familiar with.
They typically fall intoone of two categories.
Category number one is whatwe call interpretive issues.
So those are grievances that often ariseout in the field where it involves an
(11:35):
issue of interpretation of whatlanguage in the contract means.
Then there is also the possibility of
national grievances sometime arise from aprocess that through Article 19 where the
postal service will propose changes or thecreation of handbooks and manuals that
affect our wages, hoursand working conditions.
(11:57):
And then that Article 19 of our agreementessentially says if anything that they do
affects wages, hoursand working conditions.
It's a subject to collectivebargaining for us.
So there's a process in our collective
bargaining agreement where they haveto notify us of proposed changes.
There's a time period for us to review and
discuss them and then we can appeal themto national arbitration that's kind of
(12:18):
sometimes referred to asa national grievance.
Then there's just simply violations
that are just contractual in naturethat have a very broad impact.
So things that are for example, this would
not be something typically that alocal manager just chose to do.
But a recent national grievance that we
(12:39):
have that's pending right now has to dowith the security of PostalEASE in
LiteBlue that resulted in a few hundredof our members not receiving a paycheck.
That's the type of issue that we would
grieve as just a straight Article 15type grievance at the national levels.
There's multiple ways.
This is one that would potentially could
(12:59):
become a national grievance, justthat this hip training is out there.
Article 14 on safety and health has very
firm commitment really from both partiesthat are party to the agreement in terms
of the things we'll dofor health and safety.
So this could potentially turninto a national grievance.
My preference would be to get it addressed
(13:22):
outside of that process becausethat typically happens quicker.
But if we're not able to do that, then wecertainly won't hesitate to go in the
direction of a grievance if that's whatwe need to do to get it addressed.
I know putting the cartbefore the horse here.
We want to get this solved at the easiestlevel possible and the lowest level
possible, or of course in yourway the highest level possible.
(13:44):
But how would a national grievance work
and what kind of realistic timelinedo national grievances have?
I know we're talking in generalities here,but I know our members kind of have
questions along these linesand why does it take so long?
Or why does it take as long as it takesI guess would be a better question.
Yeah, they do sometimes take a while.
(14:05):
Scheduling of national hearings for
national grievances is verydifferent than at the local level.
Basically the parties have to agree ofwhich case we're going to schedule.
So currently right now we have a very
small number of pendinggrievances at the national level.
Probably the fewest we've had in along, long time for a few reasons.
(14:27):
Number one, we've done a pretty good job
over the last six, eight years,I guess, of resolving them.
The ones that were pending, we did have a
few that came up as a resultof the 2019 agreement.
Anytime you have a new collective
bargaining agreement, the possibilityfor those interpretive issues is there.
We were able to work througheach of those and resolve those.
(14:47):
So we have a pretty low caseload.
I think we only have four or five that are
pending right now, but it does take longerbecause once one is initiated, you have
the scheduling process with a nationalarbitrator, which is different than the
arbitrators you may see at the locallevel or at the regional level.
So the regional level, each of our regionshas a panel of arbitrators that hear their
(15:10):
cases, and there's prioritization forcertain types of cases, and those are
scheduled through our NBA office workingwith the postal service every month.
At the national level, we havecurrently one national arbitrator.
His name is Dennis Nolan.
We do not have, as I mentioned, very manycases pending, and when we solicit dates
from him, he will give us a numberof dates throughout the year.
(15:34):
We have to agree to schedule that case.
What has happened over the last few years
is the most recent cases that we've hadcome up have been the cases that we have
gotten the postal serviceto agree to schedule.
Now, most of those have been resolved, butif we were to initiate another grievance
here, we would probably be looking atdates late this year or sometime in 2024.
(15:58):
We would have to agree withthem to schedule the case.
Then there's also the piece that once anational grievance is filed on an issue,
any grievances that are pending orinitiated thereafter at the local level or
that could be an informalA or formal A or step B.
Or even if they're impassed through
arbitration, those cases get held for thatnational until that national case is
(16:21):
resolved, be it through settlementor through an arbitrator's award.
So the impact of having that national
case, the time it usually takes to getthem scheduled, is not just with that
particular case because all theother cases out there are held.
Our process moves very fast compared to
our sister unions, who most of them havemore cases pending than we do, but it's
(16:44):
still at the national level isjust by the nature of the process.
And the fact that we have one arbitrator,it does mean that
I won't say it always takes longer than aregional grievance, but it is usually a
matter of months before we're ableto get it forward to hearings.
We certainly want to make a differencewith this particular issue as soon as we
can and be in a position where when weroll around to next spring, we're in a
(17:08):
place to have a lot better trainingconducted and get our folks educated.
And ultimately, as I mentioned earlier,
protect us from the hazard that thisplan is intended to protect us from.
Okay, so what should every steward be
doing right now in terms of theirinvestigation for this HIPP training?
Yeah, just if you don't know already, findout did the training happen or did it not?
(17:29):
And let your branch or your NBA office
know that that is themost important thing.
If you have instances of your local
management trying to push people things,like asking them about stationary events
or telling people know they can't takecomfort stops or rest breaks they need for
(17:50):
heat, any of that kind of stuff that couldpotentially be subject of a grievance.
If it's something where
someone is consistently pushed and they'renot feeling well or unfortunately, it
results in some type of heat injury, besure to communicate that to your branch.
Let your NBA office know that's the kindof stuff that's useful to us up here.
And we've had a pretty good successrate in getting those things addressed.
(18:13):
So those are the main things right now.
Essentially, it's just doing the job of a
steward and enforcing the collectiveborrowing agreement, but also
understanding that when it comes to theheat, just like the cold, and when that's
extreme in some places, that doing whatneeds to be done to keep our people safe.
And the last thing is just encourage.
If you're a steward out there, you're bynature of your position, a leader in your
(18:38):
station where you work, encourage thefolks you work with, your brothers and
sisters, to be sure they're educatedthemselves on what the warning signs of
heat, illness are, what they shouldlook for, any type of information.
As I mentioned, a lotavailable on our website.
You could get out to them, but that wouldbe something that you could do to help
(19:00):
your brothers and sisters out, just to besure that they understand what to look for
and what they need to dothemselves to avoid that hazard.
And it's always a good timeto thank your steward.
I just want to thank all the stewards outthere to do a great job defending our
brothers and sisters on theworkroom floor every day.
You guys are tremendous.
(19:20):
Yes.Okay.
And our last question we got is what
should every member be doingin terms of heat safety?
Just educate yourself.
This is one of those issues where
regardless of what the Postal Service doesor doesn't do, regardless of what your
manager may tell you or try to push you todo, we all have the ability to protect
(19:41):
ourselves here, and that canonly come through education.
You being aware of what you need to do
very simple things oftaking care of yourself.
Like if it's a really hot day, it'stoo late to start drinking water.
Once you get out there and get hot, begin
hydrating early in the morningand just take care of yourself.
There's nothing that can happen out there.
(20:03):
There's nothing that's important enoughfor any letter carrier out there for us to
put ourselves in danger, become familiarwith the warning signs and all that stuff,
as I mentioned, is outthere on our website.
And most importantly, justtake care of yourself.
Great.Those are the questions I had about HIPP.
If I missed your question or you want to
(20:23):
add to our question list, we alwayshave our Ask the Mailbag segment.
In future episodes, we can circle back and
try to answer your questions on Hip or anyquestions you have involving our union.
You can ask our mailbag at
social@nalc.org. All right, so nowwe're in our Ask the Mailbag segment.
(20:44):
We have a question from Glenn Gibson.
If you ever do put in your questions,make sure you leave your branch.
We'd like to know where from aroundthe country you're listening.
Glenn Gibson wants to know.
He'd like to see training nationally for
basic items like how to file a grievance,key features of our contract that come up
often, and when references are madeto the contract, where to find them.
(21:04):
He just really wants to know.He's a shop steward.
He wants to get more involved and hewants more information and more training.
Can you talk about any kind ofupcoming training we're going to have?
Yeah.So Glenn, that's a great question.
And you asked the question to the rightpeople, because there's no folks around
here that love trainingmore than Eddie and I.
I'm really excited about this.
(21:26):
So we are working really hard, a number of
our headquarters officers and staffershere and more of our folks out in the
field that are working with us onexpanding the type of training that we
create and offer from theheadquarters level in 2024.
That includes traditional trainingthat we do in a classroom setting.
(21:47):
Something similar to those of you out
there that may have attended your NBAholding their regional training or your
branch may potentially do some trainingthere, but to increase the number of
things that we offerfrom headquarters level.
And I think the place to start is exactly
where you started, and thatis with steward training.
That's basic on the grievance procedure as
(22:07):
well as all the otherduties of a shop steward.
So this could expandinto all sorts of areas.
And our eventual goal is to offer trainingfor every person that's out there that's
an activist that wants to beinvolved in whatever area that is.
If that's as shop steward, a grievancerepresentative, if that's representing our
(22:29):
members in OWCP, if that's someone that'sinvolved legislatively and politically, if
you're someone that's involved incommunity service, potentially doing more
along the lines of the current branchofficer training that we have, there's all
kinds of opportunities that are outthere, and we're working hard on that.
And we intend to later on this fall, kind
(22:50):
of introduce and roll out what weplan to do for 2024 and beyond.
That's kind of in the classroom setting.
And another things that I'll mention that
I hope will really resonate with thoseof you that are podcast listeners.
Eddie and I are both pretty prolificpodcast listeners if you're involved in
social media is to supplementall this in person training.
(23:11):
We are also in the process of developingonline kind of web based things that
people can do on their own throughelearning expanding the things that we
make available throughour members only portal.
So all of that stuff will all be part of
this kind of rollout and the packagewe're talking about for next year.
So we're excited about taking advantageof every opportunity we have to give.
(23:34):
We already have, if not the most active,certainly one of the most active
memberships among anyunion in this country.
I mean, that's pretty well knownaround this city in Washington, DC.
And we're excited about giving our folksthe opportunity know, look, even if you're
not in a position because of whatevercircumstances, to attend in person
training, things that youcan do on your own to learn.
(23:56):
So we've got a lot of really intelligent,dedicated, smart people working on that
stuff and we're excitedto get that out to you.
So I'm sure you'll hear moreabout that in future episodes.
But really good question.Yeah.
Thanks, Glenn.
Our next question comes from Jim Adcockand he wants to know when is this terrible
legislation, the Windfall EliminationProvision, going to be amended?
(24:19):
He knows that Congress never likes to give
us our money back, but he would reallylike some relief for the retirees.
So can you just give us anupdate on the WEP/GPO bills?
Sure.
So, another really good question, and forthose that are listening
that may not be as familiar with it,let me give a very brief background.
This has to do with Social Security.
(24:41):
So there are two things that are out therethat are part of the existing law that
came about in the 1980s called theWindfall Elimination Provision or WEP, WEP
and the government pensionoffset called GPO.
In a nutshell, what these do is for a lotof retirees, in our case civil service
(25:03):
retirees, for the most part, it unfairlyreduces your Social Security benefits.
It's a little bit complicated in termsof the impact on each individual.
Trust me, if you're out there and you're
impacted, you know what it is becauseyou're not getting the money that you
essentially earn by paying intothe Social Security system.
The idea legislatively would be just
(25:24):
simply to repeal those two provisionsthat are in the current law.
There is a bill out there right now.
It is H.R. 82, ironically the same numberas the bill was in the previous Congress.
We currently have a bipartisan majority of
that Congress of the House that areco sponsoring that bill, 288 of them.
(25:44):
It is the leading sponsor on the bill thatactually introduced the bill is
Congressman Garrett Gravesfrom the state of Louisiana.
This was his first time leading it.
Previously a great friend to letter
carriers, Rodney Davis, a formerCongressman from Illinois, a Republican,
had led this bill for usfor the last several.
(26:04):
Unfortunately, because of a change in
districts, he lost in a primary,so he's no longer here.
But Congressman Graves has been excellent.
We do have a lot of co sponsors.
I encourage you to check out our websiteand go to congress.gov, if you're a member
of Congress, is not aco sponsor of H.R. 82.
It's called the SocialSecurity Fairness Act.
(26:25):
Ask them to co sponsor it.
But I think it's important to point out
and just be realistic about wherewe are in this particular Congress.
The chances of passing this legislation inthis House of Representatives with the
current leadership in the House ofRepresentatives,
I won't say it's impossible, butit certainly is challenging.
(26:46):
This is a piece of legislation that
affects not just postal retirees, but justmillions of people around the country.
In some cases, if folks worked and have a
local or state retirement,that could also be impacted.
So while the prospects of getting it
through this House in 2023, 2024definitely have challenges.
(27:10):
I would also remind you if you think ofthe postal reform bill that we passed was
signed into law last year, that's a pieceof legislation that over a ten to twelve
year period we worked onin every single Congress.
And while it can be frustrating to work on
it and get co sponsors and build support,if you go back to, let's say 2010, 2011,
(27:34):
those of you that were involvedlegislatively and politically then if you
talked about pre funding, peoplewould look at you like you were nuts.
They had no idea what you were talkingabout because of the work that we did.
And by we I mean all of our members,
certainly our peoplehere in Washington, DC.
Just as importantly, if not more, know thework that our members have done with our
(27:55):
members of Congress at the local, knoweducating your friends and know the media.
As we worked every Congress on different
pieces of legislation to repeal that prefunding, though we were not successful
until the Congress that wassworn in in January of 2021.
We raised that education level in every
(28:15):
single Congress to the point where anelection went a certain way in 2020.
The right leadership was in place in theHouse, not just in the House and in the
Senate, but also in thecommittees of jurisdiction.
That's important too.
And this repeal of pre funding was justthe universally accepted fix and that was
(28:38):
not the case before going backto H.R. 82 to repeal the.
WEP and the GPO, even if we're notsuccessful in getting that done in this
Congress, the work we do for the rest ofthis year and next year is still very
important because it builds support, itraises awareness, it raises education.
(28:59):
That when an election goes the right way,
and hopefully that's in 2024, the rightleadership is in place in both houses of
Congress, in the committees ofjurisdiction, and also in the White House.
You are primed to pass a pieceof legislation like this.
That was a long answer to a shortquestion, but I think that's important
that it takes all of us and we'llcontinue to lobby here in DC.
(29:23):
And based on the fact that we've alreadygot 288 co sponsors, I feel certain that
our folks out in the field, our stateassociations, our letter carrier
congressional liaisons in every districtwill keep working hard to educate our
members and grow thatnumber of co sponsors.
Great.Thank you.
All right, Brian, that's goingto end the show for this week.
As always, I want to thank you for your
(29:44):
time, and I just want tothank all our listeners.
Thank you for listening to this episodeof You Are the Current Resident podcast.
Please subscribe to the podcast so thatyou don't miss an episode, and please
share the podcast with ourNALC brothers and sisters.
We do have our Ask the Mailbag segment.
If you want question asked and answered,
submit your questions to social@nalc.org.You can follow the NALC on social media,
(30:11):
on Facebook, Twitter,Instagram and threads.
You can find links to our accounts in theepisode description, and you can follow
President Renfro on Twitter at@BrianRenfroe19.
Thank you again for listening.
Make your steward be by your sideand your union have your back.
Thanks.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.