April 12, 2022 • 28 mins
Ep. 7: Rob, 51, autistic -”I would go to meetups where I knew no one & I would be social with people I never met before - that’s like the Super Bowl of social practice”
In today's episode Rob shares with Jodi how his ex-wife's family didn't like him and he didn't understand why until two of his son's were diagnosed as autistic. He shares his perspective on smiling and learning to use tone of voice as well as his personal strategies for being intentional with practicing social skills, all of which has resulted in new friendships.
In this episode, Jodi mentions research about how autistic individuals don't use facial expressions and eye contact for information in the same way as non-autistic individuals. One study notes:
"Direct eye contact elicits a heightened physiological response as indicated by heightened skin conductance and increased amygdala activity. For individuals with autism, avoiding the eyes is an adaptive strategy, however, this approach interferes with the ability to process facial cues of identity, expressions and intentions, The “eye avoidance” strategy has negative effects on the ability to decode facial information about identity, expression, and intentions, exacerbating the social challenges for persons with ASD."
Tanaka, J. W., & Sung, A. (2016). The "Eye Avoidance" Hypothesis of Autism Face Processing. Journal of autism and developmental disorders, 46(5), 1538–1552. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10803-013-1976-7
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Jodi Carlton is a leading world expert on adult autism relationships and communication. Her private coaching, and ground-breaking "Crack the COMMUNICATION Code" program, is helping partners and couples avoid relationship failure and finally understand one another.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jodi (00:37):
Okay.
So I've got a guest today here todaythat I'm, I've been familiar with.
He's he, he and I have known eachother for, gosh, I don't know,
maybe a year, year and a half now.
Um, and I'm excited that he, uh,agreed to join me on the podcast today.
So I'm just going to turnit over to you and let you
introduce yourself to everybody.
Rob (00:56):
Well, hello, Jodi is good to see you or good to talk to you rather.
Um, my name's Rob, I live in Atlanta,um, um, I've enjoyed following your, your
group on Facebook and some of your, um,some of your podcasts and everything.
And it's really helped me in someways to really identify some of the
(01:17):
areas in me that I wanted to improveon because my whole life I've always
wanted to have better relationships.
And I've always been confused as towhy, why don't people like me more like
whoever I was with, like when I wasmarried, I was married twice before.
One time when I was veryyoung and in the army.
And then another time for 20 years.
(01:39):
And everyone I've always beenwith, they've always liked my
wife or my partner more than me.
Like when we would go out and meet withpeople, they would like them and not me.
And when I would meet their families, forsome reasons and their families didn't
like me and I never understood why.
I never, I felt like I was nice to them.
I responded to their questions.
I, I, I wasn't unfriendly.
(02:01):
I didn't say anything negative.
I just was myself.
And for some reason,people didn't like that.
And I never understood why until I have,like I said to you earlier, I have four
sons and two of them have been diagnosedwith, you know, being on the spectrum.
Um, and in some ways are very similar tome and I, that got me thinking because
(02:22):
I always thought there was something andI always tried to help them because I
learned, you know, I'm a 51 year old man.
So I've learned just by experience, howto cope with some of these things that the
other people don't like about us and, andfor the same reason that they didn't like
them and I would help them, but I neverunderstood until my younger, the younger
one who was 14, um, was diagnosed with it.
(02:44):
Um, and then it really became clear.
And then I could just go on and on.
And in one relationship I had, uh, fortwo years, the woman was very socially
aware and she would always tell methere was something wrong with me.
Like, "there's something wrong with you!
Why didn't you get up and hug that person?
Why don't you smile more?
Why don't you, why don't you, uh, whydon't you come in and, and, and say hello
(03:08):
to this person and that person, thatperson before you said hello to me?"
Because I was focused on seeing her and Icould only focus on one thing at a time.
And she was like, youjust weren't raised right.
There's something wrong with you.
She thought that it wassomething environmental.
And then finally I realized itwasn't and I started working
on those things being single.
You know, going on lots of dates.
(03:29):
And I would just go on a lotsof dates just to meet people
and work on my charisma.
I'd learn.
I even looked up how to be charismatic.
And I figured out finally,when I was missing was the
warmth that other people have.
And I didn't have that, naturally.
And then I had to work on that.
I have to fake it, but I wantto have those relationships.
So it was worth it to me to do that.
(03:50):
Although it was very exhausting.
Anyway, that's sort ofmy story for now, but,
Jodi (03:56):
Well, you know, I think your story is, is one that I hear over and over
and over and over again, the part abouta child being diagnosed and sometimes
it's a grandchild being diagnosed.
Um, and then that recognition of waita minute, okay, this is these traits.
(04:17):
I recognize these traits, you know, a lotof times it's like, well, you know, you're
a lot like dad, you're a lot like grandpa,you're like, like a lot, like grandma.
And then there's this diagnosis thatcomes through, sometimes through the
school system, sometimes through a privatepsychologist, wherever it comes through.
And then there's that moment when aparent or a grandparent, or sometimes
(04:38):
it's the partner of the parent thatsays, wait, that this makes sense now.
So what you've just described is what theexperience of so many people has been.
And I hear this all the time, every day.
So I'm curious, you, you alreadyidentified some of those traits, uh,
(05:01):
that, that you saw already in your boys,this boy, do you have two boys, right?
You said--
Rob (05:07):
Well, I have four sons, I have one from that first marriage when I was
younger, a 30 year old and a 28 yearold and then a 14 and an eight year old
and the 30 year old and the 14 year old.
You know, two different marriages, um,both have been diagnosed with that.
And the 30 year old really struggled withsome mental health issues that I think
(05:28):
there are some issues that come with it.
And I also take medicationthat helped me a lot.
Um, and
Jodi (05:36):
So what was that like for you, Rob, when they, they did, you started
seeing these, these diagnoses, uh, ason the, on the spectrum, what was that
like for you when you started to realize,wait a minute, okay, this is, this
is, this is that puzzle piece for me?
Rob (05:54):
Well, I mean, at first it was really, I was really, I felt really low.
I guess about it, like, oh, therehas been something wrong with me
this whole time, like an hour.
And then I would goback and I'll remember.
And now I will come to understand,like, for example, I was starting
to tell you, like, when I wasa child, I was in fourth grade.
(06:15):
I remember every second, clearlyI'm cursed with this memory where
I remember everything and, and wewere playing kickball and I kicked
a ball, a safe on first base.
And then the little girl hit mewith a ball and said, you're out.
I said, no, I'm safe.
And a teacher came over.
We were winning by a lot of rounds.
She said, well, justgo ahead and go be out.
I said, well, that's not the rules.
The rules are I'm safe.
(06:35):
So I couldn't, I couldn't like functionwhere like, someone's not, where an
authority figures not following the rules.
I didn't understand the, the grayarea where she's trying to like,
make everyone feel good, you know?
So I ran off into the woods.
And they had to call thepolice to come find me.
And then they eventually found me.
But unlike, unlike what'shappening with my son.
(06:57):
He gets help at school.
He's on this plan.
But me, I got paddled by theprincipal for that, you know?
And so all these, all these memories comeflooding back and like, where was my help?
And I started feeling sorry for myself.
And, and I was like, Yeah,I, where was my help?
Why didn't my parents care?
Why didn't they help me getthrough all these things?
(07:19):
And then I would, my life would have beena lot easier, but at the same time, it's
like, well, I can't think about that.
And you know, so that took, like a monthor so of like, just getting through that.
And then eventually I was like,well, you know, I can't, I
can't, I have to function now.
And it may be my, my role is tounderstand everything and help my
children now with the lessons that Ilearned from, from my life and also
(07:46):
work on myself, I can be better.
I can work on these things.
I can do that.
I want to have relationships.
I want to have successful relationships.
And I don't just mean intimaterelationships with, with my
girlfriend, fiance, wife.
Those I've sort of been successful at.
I can have a good, deep, intimaterelationship with someone who gives me the
(08:06):
time or takes the time to understand me.
I can usually do that okay.
It's the, the otherrelationships around us.
It's her family and herfriends and all these people.
That's where I always struggled becausethey didn't like me and you didn't get an
opportunity to get to know them in depth.
You only see them for holidays, or youonly see them every once in a while.
(08:28):
And if, if, if those people, your wife'sfamily, your wife's friends, don't like
you, that puts a lot of pressure on her.
Right.
And they're like, don'tbring your husband around.
Don't bring him aroundbecause he's annoying.
He just sits in the cornerand doesn't talk to anybody.
Or we don't understand.
He always just soundsangry or he never smiles.
What's wrong with him.
You know, don't bring him around, youknow, he depresses us and, um, but see,
(08:51):
I always wanted to not be that person.
So I had to teach myself how to,to, to be around other people.
So that wouldn't happen anymore.
Jodi (09:01):
So you bring up a very, uh, very good point.
A dynamic that is, is a very commondynamic for couples that are in what
we call neuro-diverse relationships,where somebody is on the spectrum,
autistic, neuro-diverse, whateverword is the most comfortable for
those of you who are listening.
Um, this is a really common dynamic.
(09:23):
You're saying, you know,my partner knows me.
My partner gets to know the real me,the person who is not just an angry,
uh, person who isn't the, what they'remisunderstanding me to be, but they
don't get to know me that way becausethey don't get to spend time with me.
They don't get to know who I really am.
(09:43):
And so they're misunderstanding me andthey just don't want to be around me.
And then that puts a lot of pressureon her, whoever that partner is for
and for the listeners that may be yourwife, your girlfriend, your, your, um,
if you are a man who's in a relationshipwith a woman, um, you know, that
(10:03):
maybe you and this diamond is reallycommon and, and Rob you're right.
It puts pressure on thembecause now, they're getting
a lot of pushback from family.
You know, I was just at a couplesretreat this weekend, actually
with a colleague and, uh, I was aco-facilitator with her and this was
not a retreat for neurodiverse couples,but we were talking about how major
(10:28):
of an influence our family members areon our couple relationships and how
they really oftentimes push us hard.
And sometimes their investment in ourrelationship is more about them and their
own comfort levels than about whether ornot our own relationship is successful.
(10:48):
And so you bring up a very real problemfor neuro-diverse partners and podcasts
like this, what, what you were cominghere to say, uh, the things that those
of us who are in this industry, tryingto help educate the world more about
(11:08):
this are so helpful because partnerscan say, look, go listen to this, hear
this, this, this is who my partner is.
This is, this is who I live with.
This, this man is not,um, just an angry person.
This is not a mean person.
This is, this is not thisperson's not heart hurt hurting
me this, you know, this is.
(11:30):
This is what this is who my partner is.
And so sharing that Ithink is really helpful.
Go ahead.
Rob (11:35):
Probably like one of the biggest examples, just to kind of like, this
is just a, uh, an example, like a,uh, a microcosm is like, when a lot
of people think there's somethingwrong with you if you're not smiling.
They want you to smile.
Like, why aren't you smiling?
Smile, you'll be happier.
You know?
And the reason they people want you tosmile is because it makes them feel better
(11:58):
because they want to be around someone whosmiles because it makes them feel better.
I'm not just because I'm notsmiling doesn't mean I'm unhappy.
I'm emotionally neutral.
That's why I'm not smiling.
I think other people like they smileeven when they're emotionally neutral or
maybe they're never emotionally neutral.
I don't know.
I know for me, my, my defaultface is not to have a smile on it.
(12:21):
And I don't feel comfortablesmiling unless I really have a good
reason to smile, unless I'm happy.
But to me, being emotional,being neutral is okay.
I don't understand what'swrong with just being neutral.
It doesn't mean I'm unhappy.
Doesn't mean I'm ecstaticallyhappy just means I'm I'm content.
I'm feeling good.
That's fine.
And I don't smile for that, butother people, they don't like that.
(12:42):
It makes them uncomfortable.
Why're you grumpy?
Why do you look angry?
I'm not, I'm just me.
I'm just sitting here like.
Jodi (12:49):
And so what you just brought up is actually yes.
So, so what you're talking aboutis where we start to, uh, when I
talk about how we have differentlanguages, uh, so the neuro-typical or
non-autistic, um, language, part of,part of the language that is spoken
by non-autistic or neuro-typicalindividuals is those facial expressions.
(13:15):
It's very subtle.
It's very, it's something that, that,so I am neuro-typical as you know, it's
something that it would, it's hard forme, even to articulate most people who
are not autistic would have a hardertime even putting into words, how we
read those expressions from a very,
it's a very subtle, subconscious languagethat we learn when we're babies and we
(13:43):
look to faces for information, and it'snot just about making us feel better.
It's about information.
It's about getting information fromthe people around us, about their
state of mind, their mood, their,their, what it's it's communication
and research that we have studied this.
We've looked at young babiesand whether or not they look
(14:05):
at faces to get information.
And we've looked at babies thatare eventually diagnosed with
autism and babies that are not.
And we know that that autistic childrendid not and still do not more often
than not look at faces for information.
It just, even frominfancy, we don't know why.
(14:28):
We know that that thishappens, but we don't know why.
And that non-autistic babies dolook at faces for information.
So, this is a language that I oftentalk about that is not as spoken by the
autistic population like yourselves.
It's just not spoken.
And so when a non autistic person ishaving a conversation or is in the
(14:52):
presence of someone who is autistic, it'sa very subconscious thing to be looking at
those at your face for that information.
If, what we see on an autisticperson's face is what we interpret,
uh, without even realizing as, asanger or displeasure or irritation.
(15:16):
Um, then that's, that'show it's interpreted.
Whereas for someone like yourselfand I, and I hear, I hear this
from all my autistic folks.
Exactly what you just said.
I don't, it doesn't mean that I'mangry, doesn't mean that I'm upset.
I'm neutral, like you just said.
This is where thecommunication divide happens.
(15:38):
And this is one of them.
There, there are several, it, this iswhere it happens and people don't know it.
They, they're not aware that we'renot speaking the same language.
And so it's so confusing.
Because, and that that's all the question.
Your why, why do you look like that?
Well, why don't, whyshouldn't I look like this?
(15:59):
Um, you know, and so to people whodon't know, someone's autistic and
someone's not are, are not understandingthese, these facial expressions.
It's so confusing and, and it just startsto rip a tear into that relationship.
And, and that's why knowing, once peopleknow, okay, I'm autistic and you're not.
(16:23):
And let's, let's learn what this means.
It's huge for couples and not justcouples, but just in interactions
with just the world in general,with other people to know this is
a difference because it's not thatsomeone's right or someone's wrong,
or there's a right way to communicateor a wrong way, but it's different.
(16:45):
And so it's so helpful to havethat framework sometimes so that
you can communicate, like youjust said, I'm just neutral.
I'm not angry, I'm notmad, I'm just neutral.
And so you can communicatethat to people now.
Rob (17:37):
I mean, that's part of it, but like, like I said, I was in this really
difficult relationship with a woman whois very socially aware and she would
always tell me, look, we can't, as acouple, we can't exist in a bubble.
You need to be able to, to bearound my friends and family.
They need to want you around and youneed to be more like this person.
(17:59):
You need to be more like that person,and it approached to the point
of being almost abusive, I think.
But she was right in lots of ways.
And I, and look, if you're goingto go to Spain and you only speak
English, you're not going to fit in.
You need to know Spanish.
So I tried to teach myself thelanguage that the other people
speak, and I can do that.
(18:19):
I'm doing it right now.
I'm raising and loweringmy voice on purpose.
Um, I don't normally talk that way.
Some it takes practice and I had topractice a different language when I
go and I shake someone's hand and Isay, hello, I put a smile on my face.
I try to sound warm and it sounds, itfeels funny to me even, Hey, how are you?
(18:42):
It's so good to see you.
It feels funny to me, but toother, but it really isn't.
If you watch it from the outside,if you videotape yourself,
you look like everybody else.
To me, it feels like I'm beinglike a clown in the circus.
Jodi (18:56):
I'm so glad that you said, you I'm so glad that you said this because
I've used this exact analogy of fluencylanguage fluency in my other, some other
videos, because it is, it is learninga language and not being fluent in it.
The language of facial expression,the language of vocal tone,
(19:17):
even the language of emotion.
And so I use the analogy whenI've talked about this before of
how I took French in high schooland a semester or so in college.
And so I know some words, I know someexpressions, I probably don't know
many now because it's been years,but I went to France not too long
after I took French and I, I triedto speak French in a, in a Parisian
(19:42):
cafe and I was nowhere near fluent.
And I remember that the server justlooked at me and he said, just speak
English because he was more fluentin English than I was in French.
And I was really disappointedthat, that in that experience.
But like you said, if I had livedthere, if I'd moved there, I would have
needed to work harder on becoming morefluent in than the French language.
(20:03):
It's so similar in that autisticfolks are not fluent in, in
those facial expressions.
And in that the, the language, the emotionwords, and even recognizing emotion and
using, using emotional expressions andwhat you just said about learning it,
even though it feels fake to you, itis the language that the neuro-typical
(20:24):
folks around you are speaking.
And I love that you said that, thatyou recognize that it's something that
is important for you to learn to do.
It's not that there's anything wrongwith you necessarily, but in order
to have those relationships withother people, it is an important
thing for you to try to do.
(20:45):
Just like if I moved to France,I really need it's it's on me to
learn how to speak French better.
Rob (20:52):
Right.
And, and if you talk to anyoneabout learning a foreign language,
they'll say, well, look toreally do it, you need immersion.
You need to go there and you needto be in it and hear only that
language and soon, and you'll pickit up a lot better and a lot faster.
So after watching these other peopleinteract and it's like, wow, she's
(21:13):
really good at making people feelcomfortable and welcome around
her and watching how she did it.
I would go practice it.
And I would, I would usedating to practice it.
I would meet people one-on-oneand I would practice it then.
And then I would go to meetups where Iknew no one and I would go, and I would
social with people I never met before.
(21:33):
And that's, that's like the Superbowlof, of social practice is to go into
a party or something where, you know,no one and try to talk to somebody.
And then I would lead my own meetups.
I would, but I would do thingswhere I was comfortable.
Like I'm really good at hiking.
And, um, and so I would lead agroup hike where I was in charge of
it, and I had to talk to everyoneand make everyone feel comfortable
(21:58):
coming on this group event with me.
I would force myself to practice it.
I would immerse myself in these socialsituations where I was forced to act
in a way, just like everyone else, thisto smile and welcome them and be warm
and introduce them to other people.
And I made lots of friendsdoing that and it works.
(22:18):
It really does work.
And it just takes lots of practice tothe point where it is almost second
nature because you've immersed yourself.
And in fact, sometimes if Igo a few weeks without doing
it, I'll get out of practice.
And, uh, I'll go to, I did a grouphike this past week and I wasn't
as friendly as I should have been.
Um, just 'cause, justto get out of practice.
It just takes practice and that's okay.
(22:41):
As much as I would love for everyoneto say, okay, we get it, it's good
to be neuro-diverse it's like asgood to have brown hair or dark skin
or, or whatever that would, I wouldlove for people to, to treat people
who are neuro-diverse that way.
But, it's probably not going tohappen anytime soon, because it's
hard to see and it's hard to know,and it's not as is as advertised.
(23:03):
So, um, I would love, but I wouldlove more acceptance, but until
that happens, you need to learn.
I just feel like you need to learn thelanguage that everyone else speaks.
If you want to have these relationshipsand outside your immediate relationship,
if you want people to like you andyou can't have only your partner
be your one and only relationship,there's too much pressure on her.
(23:25):
Too much.
And that was the only thing in mylife is I that's what my, my partner,
my wife, my girlfriend was my sociallife and that's not fair to her.
Jodi (23:36):
I totally agree with there, there, so two things I want to just,
uh, emphasize about what you just said.
One is, you said I chose something thatI like, so I'm already comfortable.
I'm already in my comfort zone.
You love to hike, right?
Yes.
So you don't want to choose anactivity that you're already
out of your comfort zone.
And, and you're, you're alreadydealing with, you know, a lot of
(23:58):
sensory overwhelm and social overwhelm.
You pick something that's already maybea special interest, and find a way
to, to push yourself out of your othercomfort zones, your social comfort zones.
I love the way you didthat and set that up.
That's very encouraging andvery good advice to the folks
listening who are autistic.
The second thing you said was.
(24:18):
If you want that social, you want thefriends you want to be, uh, you want those
relationships, it will be, you know, it'sgreat that awareness is being raised.
And that, that the world islearning more about autism.
And we know so much more now than we did10 years, 20 years ago, but we still have
(24:40):
to learn to, you know, we, we know a lotabout going back to the French analogy.
Again, we may know a lot about France,but I still, if I'm going to go live
there, I still need to learn how to speakFrench, no matter how much awareness we
have, if we're going to interact and be inrelationships with each other, we can be
as aware as possible, but we still have tolearn how to interact and how to do that.
(25:06):
And we have to learn to tryto speak those languages.
And I also want to speak to myneuro-typical listeners and say,
if you have, well, not even ifyou do, you do have autistic
people in your life, 100% you do.
There are autistic people everywhere.
(25:27):
They're all around us.
They're all in my life.
I meet new people constantly thatare autistic, on the spectrum.
So it's also our responsibility tolearn how to speak their language as
well and that's part of that awareness.
And so if you meet and know, if youhave a partner, if you have, if your
(25:48):
children have friends, if you have achild, it's not just their responsibility
to come to us and speak our language.
It's also our responsibility to learn moreabout them and to speak their language.
This is a two way street.
This is not just one way.
Rob (26:03):
Well, that's one thing my fiance is good about.
Like if I go to visit her and I'm there tosee her, I, whenever I do something like
that, I tend to get like tunnel vision.
Like I'm going to see her.
I'm gonna see her.
She's like, make sure to say helloto my mom, or make sure to go hug
my daughter or something like that.
Like, she's very good at reminding methat there are other people around that
I need to socialize with them as well.
(26:25):
And then
Jodi (26:26):
Yes, that's a partnership.
So let's stop there, Rob.
I think that's been, uh, uh,Just a good place to end.
And I know before we got on thecall, you said there's so much,
there's so much, there's so much.
And there really is.
So I really would like to inviteyou to come back at any time
(26:46):
and, and be on the podcast.
If that, with everythingelse you'd like to share.
I think you have a lot, a lot tooffer our listeners because there
are other people who are at a verydifferent stage of this than you.
There are people who are just nowfiguring this out and in that.
Place of where was my help and why didn'tI get any help and more depressed about it
(27:08):
and sad and not, where do I go from here?
And, um, it's very helpful for peopleto hear from people like you who are
for a little bit further down the road.
And understanding this a little more.
So, you know, I'd loveto have you back anytime
Rob (27:25):
I'm happy to help.
And hopefully it reaches somepeople and they can see that there
are things you can do about it.
It just, you know, it takes steps.
And then I went to therapy, Igo to therapy and I go there
to work on relationship skills.
And, and I work at, uh, I work atit hard because I want to have those
relationships and it does work.
(27:45):
It, it can help and you can get there.
Jodi (27:48):
Absolutely.
Totally agree on that.
All right.
Well, thanks so much andhopefully we'll talk again soon.
Rob (27:54):
You're welcome.
Happy to thank you so much.
Bye.
Okay.
So I've got a guest today here todaythat I'm, I've been familiar with.
He's he, he and I have known eachother for, gosh, I don't know,
maybe a year, year and a half now.
Um, and I'm excited that he, uh,agreed to join me on the podcast today.
So I'm just going to turnit over to you and let you
introduce yourself to everybody.
Rob (00:56):
Well, hello, Jodi is good to see you or good to talk to you rather.
Um, my name's Rob, I live in Atlanta,um, um, I've enjoyed following your, your
group on Facebook and some of your, um,some of your podcasts and everything.
And it's really helped me in someways to really identify some of the
(01:17):
areas in me that I wanted to improveon because my whole life I've always
wanted to have better relationships.
And I've always been confused as towhy, why don't people like me more like
whoever I was with, like when I wasmarried, I was married twice before.
One time when I was veryyoung and in the army.
And then another time for 20 years.
(01:39):
And everyone I've always beenwith, they've always liked my
wife or my partner more than me.
Like when we would go out and meet withpeople, they would like them and not me.
And when I would meet their families, forsome reasons and their families didn't
like me and I never understood why.
I never, I felt like I was nice to them.
I responded to their questions.
I, I, I wasn't unfriendly.
(02:01):
I didn't say anything negative.
I just was myself.
And for some reason,people didn't like that.
And I never understood why until I have,like I said to you earlier, I have four
sons and two of them have been diagnosedwith, you know, being on the spectrum.
Um, and in some ways are very similar tome and I, that got me thinking because
(02:22):
I always thought there was something andI always tried to help them because I
learned, you know, I'm a 51 year old man.
So I've learned just by experience, howto cope with some of these things that the
other people don't like about us and, andfor the same reason that they didn't like
them and I would help them, but I neverunderstood until my younger, the younger
one who was 14, um, was diagnosed with it.
(02:44):
Um, and then it really became clear.
And then I could just go on and on.
And in one relationship I had, uh, fortwo years, the woman was very socially
aware and she would always tell methere was something wrong with me.
Like, "there's something wrong with you!
Why didn't you get up and hug that person?
Why don't you smile more?
Why don't you, why don't you, uh, whydon't you come in and, and, and say hello
(03:08):
to this person and that person, thatperson before you said hello to me?"
Because I was focused on seeing her and Icould only focus on one thing at a time.
And she was like, youjust weren't raised right.
There's something wrong with you.
She thought that it wassomething environmental.
And then finally I realized itwasn't and I started working
on those things being single.
You know, going on lots of dates.
(03:29):
And I would just go on a lotsof dates just to meet people
and work on my charisma.
I'd learn.
I even looked up how to be charismatic.
And I figured out finally,when I was missing was the
warmth that other people have.
And I didn't have that, naturally.
And then I had to work on that.
I have to fake it, but I wantto have those relationships.
So it was worth it to me to do that.
(03:50):
Although it was very exhausting.
Anyway, that's sort ofmy story for now, but,
Jodi (03:56):
Well, you know, I think your story is, is one that I hear over and over
and over and over again, the part abouta child being diagnosed and sometimes
it's a grandchild being diagnosed.
Um, and then that recognition of waita minute, okay, this is these traits.
(04:17):
I recognize these traits, you know, a lotof times it's like, well, you know, you're
a lot like dad, you're a lot like grandpa,you're like, like a lot, like grandma.
And then there's this diagnosis thatcomes through, sometimes through the
school system, sometimes through a privatepsychologist, wherever it comes through.
And then there's that moment when aparent or a grandparent, or sometimes
(04:38):
it's the partner of the parent thatsays, wait, that this makes sense now.
So what you've just described is what theexperience of so many people has been.
And I hear this all the time, every day.
So I'm curious, you, you alreadyidentified some of those traits, uh,
(05:01):
that, that you saw already in your boys,this boy, do you have two boys, right?
You said--
Rob (05:07):
Well, I have four sons, I have one from that first marriage when I was
younger, a 30 year old and a 28 yearold and then a 14 and an eight year old
and the 30 year old and the 14 year old.
You know, two different marriages, um,both have been diagnosed with that.
And the 30 year old really struggled withsome mental health issues that I think
(05:28):
there are some issues that come with it.
And I also take medicationthat helped me a lot.
Um, and
Jodi (05:36):
So what was that like for you, Rob, when they, they did, you started
seeing these, these diagnoses, uh, ason the, on the spectrum, what was that
like for you when you started to realize,wait a minute, okay, this is, this
is, this is that puzzle piece for me?
Rob (05:54):
Well, I mean, at first it was really, I was really, I felt really low.
I guess about it, like, oh, therehas been something wrong with me
this whole time, like an hour.
And then I would goback and I'll remember.
And now I will come to understand,like, for example, I was starting
to tell you, like, when I wasa child, I was in fourth grade.
(06:15):
I remember every second, clearlyI'm cursed with this memory where
I remember everything and, and wewere playing kickball and I kicked
a ball, a safe on first base.
And then the little girl hit mewith a ball and said, you're out.
I said, no, I'm safe.
And a teacher came over.
We were winning by a lot of rounds.
She said, well, justgo ahead and go be out.
I said, well, that's not the rules.
The rules are I'm safe.
(06:35):
So I couldn't, I couldn't like functionwhere like, someone's not, where an
authority figures not following the rules.
I didn't understand the, the grayarea where she's trying to like,
make everyone feel good, you know?
So I ran off into the woods.
And they had to call thepolice to come find me.
And then they eventually found me.
But unlike, unlike what'shappening with my son.
(06:57):
He gets help at school.
He's on this plan.
But me, I got paddled by theprincipal for that, you know?
And so all these, all these memories comeflooding back and like, where was my help?
And I started feeling sorry for myself.
And, and I was like, Yeah,I, where was my help?
Why didn't my parents care?
Why didn't they help me getthrough all these things?
(07:19):
And then I would, my life would have beena lot easier, but at the same time, it's
like, well, I can't think about that.
And you know, so that took, like a monthor so of like, just getting through that.
And then eventually I was like,well, you know, I can't, I
can't, I have to function now.
And it may be my, my role is tounderstand everything and help my
children now with the lessons that Ilearned from, from my life and also
(07:46):
work on myself, I can be better.
I can work on these things.
I can do that.
I want to have relationships.
I want to have successful relationships.
And I don't just mean intimaterelationships with, with my
girlfriend, fiance, wife.
Those I've sort of been successful at.
I can have a good, deep, intimaterelationship with someone who gives me the
(08:06):
time or takes the time to understand me.
I can usually do that okay.
It's the, the otherrelationships around us.
It's her family and herfriends and all these people.
That's where I always struggled becausethey didn't like me and you didn't get an
opportunity to get to know them in depth.
You only see them for holidays, or youonly see them every once in a while.
(08:28):
And if, if, if those people, your wife'sfamily, your wife's friends, don't like
you, that puts a lot of pressure on her.
Right.
And they're like, don'tbring your husband around.
Don't bring him aroundbecause he's annoying.
He just sits in the cornerand doesn't talk to anybody.
Or we don't understand.
He always just soundsangry or he never smiles.
What's wrong with him.
You know, don't bring him around, youknow, he depresses us and, um, but see,
(08:51):
I always wanted to not be that person.
So I had to teach myself how to,to, to be around other people.
So that wouldn't happen anymore.
Jodi (09:01):
So you bring up a very, uh, very good point.
A dynamic that is, is a very commondynamic for couples that are in what
we call neuro-diverse relationships,where somebody is on the spectrum,
autistic, neuro-diverse, whateverword is the most comfortable for
those of you who are listening.
Um, this is a really common dynamic.
(09:23):
You're saying, you know,my partner knows me.
My partner gets to know the real me,the person who is not just an angry,
uh, person who isn't the, what they'remisunderstanding me to be, but they
don't get to know me that way becausethey don't get to spend time with me.
They don't get to know who I really am.
(09:43):
And so they're misunderstanding me andthey just don't want to be around me.
And then that puts a lot of pressureon her, whoever that partner is for
and for the listeners that may be yourwife, your girlfriend, your, your, um,
if you are a man who's in a relationshipwith a woman, um, you know, that
(10:03):
maybe you and this diamond is reallycommon and, and Rob you're right.
It puts pressure on thembecause now, they're getting
a lot of pushback from family.
You know, I was just at a couplesretreat this weekend, actually
with a colleague and, uh, I was aco-facilitator with her and this was
not a retreat for neurodiverse couples,but we were talking about how major
(10:28):
of an influence our family members areon our couple relationships and how
they really oftentimes push us hard.
And sometimes their investment in ourrelationship is more about them and their
own comfort levels than about whether ornot our own relationship is successful.
(10:48):
And so you bring up a very real problemfor neuro-diverse partners and podcasts
like this, what, what you were cominghere to say, uh, the things that those
of us who are in this industry, tryingto help educate the world more about
(11:08):
this are so helpful because partnerscan say, look, go listen to this, hear
this, this, this is who my partner is.
This is, this is who I live with.
This, this man is not,um, just an angry person.
This is not a mean person.
This is, this is not thisperson's not heart hurt hurting
me this, you know, this is.
(11:30):
This is what this is who my partner is.
And so sharing that Ithink is really helpful.
Go ahead.
Rob (11:35):
Probably like one of the biggest examples, just to kind of like, this
is just a, uh, an example, like a,uh, a microcosm is like, when a lot
of people think there's somethingwrong with you if you're not smiling.
They want you to smile.
Like, why aren't you smiling?
Smile, you'll be happier.
You know?
And the reason they people want you tosmile is because it makes them feel better
(11:58):
because they want to be around someone whosmiles because it makes them feel better.
I'm not just because I'm notsmiling doesn't mean I'm unhappy.
I'm emotionally neutral.
That's why I'm not smiling.
I think other people like they smileeven when they're emotionally neutral or
maybe they're never emotionally neutral.
I don't know.
I know for me, my, my defaultface is not to have a smile on it.
(12:21):
And I don't feel comfortablesmiling unless I really have a good
reason to smile, unless I'm happy.
But to me, being emotional,being neutral is okay.
I don't understand what'swrong with just being neutral.
It doesn't mean I'm unhappy.
Doesn't mean I'm ecstaticallyhappy just means I'm I'm content.
I'm feeling good.
That's fine.
And I don't smile for that, butother people, they don't like that.
(12:42):
It makes them uncomfortable.
Why're you grumpy?
Why do you look angry?
I'm not, I'm just me.
I'm just sitting here like.
Jodi (12:49):
And so what you just brought up is actually yes.
So, so what you're talking aboutis where we start to, uh, when I
talk about how we have differentlanguages, uh, so the neuro-typical or
non-autistic, um, language, part of,part of the language that is spoken
by non-autistic or neuro-typicalindividuals is those facial expressions.
(13:15):
It's very subtle.
It's very, it's something that, that,so I am neuro-typical as you know, it's
something that it would, it's hard forme, even to articulate most people who
are not autistic would have a hardertime even putting into words, how we
read those expressions from a very,
it's a very subtle, subconscious languagethat we learn when we're babies and we
(13:43):
look to faces for information, and it'snot just about making us feel better.
It's about information.
It's about getting information fromthe people around us, about their
state of mind, their mood, their,their, what it's it's communication
and research that we have studied this.
We've looked at young babiesand whether or not they look
(14:05):
at faces to get information.
And we've looked at babies thatare eventually diagnosed with
autism and babies that are not.
And we know that that autistic childrendid not and still do not more often
than not look at faces for information.
It just, even frominfancy, we don't know why.
(14:28):
We know that that thishappens, but we don't know why.
And that non-autistic babies dolook at faces for information.
So, this is a language that I oftentalk about that is not as spoken by the
autistic population like yourselves.
It's just not spoken.
And so when a non autistic person ishaving a conversation or is in the
(14:52):
presence of someone who is autistic, it'sa very subconscious thing to be looking at
those at your face for that information.
If, what we see on an autisticperson's face is what we interpret,
uh, without even realizing as, asanger or displeasure or irritation.
(15:16):
Um, then that's, that'show it's interpreted.
Whereas for someone like yourselfand I, and I hear, I hear this
from all my autistic folks.
Exactly what you just said.
I don't, it doesn't mean that I'mangry, doesn't mean that I'm upset.
I'm neutral, like you just said.
This is where thecommunication divide happens.
(15:38):
And this is one of them.
There, there are several, it, this iswhere it happens and people don't know it.
They, they're not aware that we'renot speaking the same language.
And so it's so confusing.
Because, and that that's all the question.
Your why, why do you look like that?
Well, why don't, whyshouldn't I look like this?
(15:59):
Um, you know, and so to people whodon't know, someone's autistic and
someone's not are, are not understandingthese, these facial expressions.
It's so confusing and, and it just startsto rip a tear into that relationship.
And, and that's why knowing, once peopleknow, okay, I'm autistic and you're not.
(16:23):
And let's, let's learn what this means.
It's huge for couples and not justcouples, but just in interactions
with just the world in general,with other people to know this is
a difference because it's not thatsomeone's right or someone's wrong,
or there's a right way to communicateor a wrong way, but it's different.
(16:45):
And so it's so helpful to havethat framework sometimes so that
you can communicate, like youjust said, I'm just neutral.
I'm not angry, I'm notmad, I'm just neutral.
And so you can communicatethat to people now.
Rob (17:37):
I mean, that's part of it, but like, like I said, I was in this really
difficult relationship with a woman whois very socially aware and she would
always tell me, look, we can't, as acouple, we can't exist in a bubble.
You need to be able to, to bearound my friends and family.
They need to want you around and youneed to be more like this person.
(17:59):
You need to be more like that person,and it approached to the point
of being almost abusive, I think.
But she was right in lots of ways.
And I, and look, if you're goingto go to Spain and you only speak
English, you're not going to fit in.
You need to know Spanish.
So I tried to teach myself thelanguage that the other people
speak, and I can do that.
(18:19):
I'm doing it right now.
I'm raising and loweringmy voice on purpose.
Um, I don't normally talk that way.
Some it takes practice and I had topractice a different language when I
go and I shake someone's hand and Isay, hello, I put a smile on my face.
I try to sound warm and it sounds, itfeels funny to me even, Hey, how are you?
(18:42):
It's so good to see you.
It feels funny to me, but toother, but it really isn't.
If you watch it from the outside,if you videotape yourself,
you look like everybody else.
To me, it feels like I'm beinglike a clown in the circus.
Jodi (18:56):
I'm so glad that you said, you I'm so glad that you said this because
I've used this exact analogy of fluencylanguage fluency in my other, some other
videos, because it is, it is learninga language and not being fluent in it.
The language of facial expression,the language of vocal tone,
(19:17):
even the language of emotion.
And so I use the analogy whenI've talked about this before of
how I took French in high schooland a semester or so in college.
And so I know some words, I know someexpressions, I probably don't know
many now because it's been years,but I went to France not too long
after I took French and I, I triedto speak French in a, in a Parisian
(19:42):
cafe and I was nowhere near fluent.
And I remember that the server justlooked at me and he said, just speak
English because he was more fluentin English than I was in French.
And I was really disappointedthat, that in that experience.
But like you said, if I had livedthere, if I'd moved there, I would have
needed to work harder on becoming morefluent in than the French language.
(20:03):
It's so similar in that autisticfolks are not fluent in, in
those facial expressions.
And in that the, the language, the emotionwords, and even recognizing emotion and
using, using emotional expressions andwhat you just said about learning it,
even though it feels fake to you, itis the language that the neuro-typical
(20:24):
folks around you are speaking.
And I love that you said that, thatyou recognize that it's something that
is important for you to learn to do.
It's not that there's anything wrongwith you necessarily, but in order
to have those relationships withother people, it is an important
thing for you to try to do.
(20:45):
Just like if I moved to France,I really need it's it's on me to
learn how to speak French better.
Rob (20:52):
Right.
And, and if you talk to anyoneabout learning a foreign language,
they'll say, well, look toreally do it, you need immersion.
You need to go there and you needto be in it and hear only that
language and soon, and you'll pickit up a lot better and a lot faster.
So after watching these other peopleinteract and it's like, wow, she's
(21:13):
really good at making people feelcomfortable and welcome around
her and watching how she did it.
I would go practice it.
And I would, I would usedating to practice it.
I would meet people one-on-oneand I would practice it then.
And then I would go to meetups where Iknew no one and I would go, and I would
social with people I never met before.
(21:33):
And that's, that's like the Superbowlof, of social practice is to go into
a party or something where, you know,no one and try to talk to somebody.
And then I would lead my own meetups.
I would, but I would do thingswhere I was comfortable.
Like I'm really good at hiking.
And, um, and so I would lead agroup hike where I was in charge of
it, and I had to talk to everyoneand make everyone feel comfortable
(21:58):
coming on this group event with me.
I would force myself to practice it.
I would immerse myself in these socialsituations where I was forced to act
in a way, just like everyone else, thisto smile and welcome them and be warm
and introduce them to other people.
And I made lots of friendsdoing that and it works.
(22:18):
It really does work.
And it just takes lots of practice tothe point where it is almost second
nature because you've immersed yourself.
And in fact, sometimes if Igo a few weeks without doing
it, I'll get out of practice.
And, uh, I'll go to, I did a grouphike this past week and I wasn't
as friendly as I should have been.
Um, just 'cause, justto get out of practice.
It just takes practice and that's okay.
(22:41):
As much as I would love for everyoneto say, okay, we get it, it's good
to be neuro-diverse it's like asgood to have brown hair or dark skin
or, or whatever that would, I wouldlove for people to, to treat people
who are neuro-diverse that way.
But, it's probably not going tohappen anytime soon, because it's
hard to see and it's hard to know,and it's not as is as advertised.
(23:03):
So, um, I would love, but I wouldlove more acceptance, but until
that happens, you need to learn.
I just feel like you need to learn thelanguage that everyone else speaks.
If you want to have these relationshipsand outside your immediate relationship,
if you want people to like you andyou can't have only your partner
be your one and only relationship,there's too much pressure on her.
(23:25):
Too much.
And that was the only thing in mylife is I that's what my, my partner,
my wife, my girlfriend was my sociallife and that's not fair to her.
Jodi (23:36):
I totally agree with there, there, so two things I want to just,
uh, emphasize about what you just said.
One is, you said I chose something thatI like, so I'm already comfortable.
I'm already in my comfort zone.
You love to hike, right?
Yes.
So you don't want to choose anactivity that you're already
out of your comfort zone.
And, and you're, you're alreadydealing with, you know, a lot of
(23:58):
sensory overwhelm and social overwhelm.
You pick something that's already maybea special interest, and find a way
to, to push yourself out of your othercomfort zones, your social comfort zones.
I love the way you didthat and set that up.
That's very encouraging andvery good advice to the folks
listening who are autistic.
The second thing you said was.
(24:18):
If you want that social, you want thefriends you want to be, uh, you want those
relationships, it will be, you know, it'sgreat that awareness is being raised.
And that, that the world islearning more about autism.
And we know so much more now than we did10 years, 20 years ago, but we still have
(24:40):
to learn to, you know, we, we know a lotabout going back to the French analogy.
Again, we may know a lot about France,but I still, if I'm going to go live
there, I still need to learn how to speakFrench, no matter how much awareness we
have, if we're going to interact and be inrelationships with each other, we can be
as aware as possible, but we still have tolearn how to interact and how to do that.
(25:06):
And we have to learn to tryto speak those languages.
And I also want to speak to myneuro-typical listeners and say,
if you have, well, not even ifyou do, you do have autistic
people in your life, 100% you do.
There are autistic people everywhere.
(25:27):
They're all around us.
They're all in my life.
I meet new people constantly thatare autistic, on the spectrum.
So it's also our responsibility tolearn how to speak their language as
well and that's part of that awareness.
And so if you meet and know, if youhave a partner, if you have, if your
(25:48):
children have friends, if you have achild, it's not just their responsibility
to come to us and speak our language.
It's also our responsibility to learn moreabout them and to speak their language.
This is a two way street.
This is not just one way.
Rob (26:03):
Well, that's one thing my fiance is good about.
Like if I go to visit her and I'm there tosee her, I, whenever I do something like
that, I tend to get like tunnel vision.
Like I'm going to see her.
I'm gonna see her.
She's like, make sure to say helloto my mom, or make sure to go hug
my daughter or something like that.
Like, she's very good at reminding methat there are other people around that
I need to socialize with them as well.
(26:25):
And then
Jodi (26:26):
Yes, that's a partnership.
So let's stop there, Rob.
I think that's been, uh, uh,Just a good place to end.
And I know before we got on thecall, you said there's so much,
there's so much, there's so much.
And there really is.
So I really would like to inviteyou to come back at any time
(26:46):
and, and be on the podcast.
If that, with everythingelse you'd like to share.
I think you have a lot, a lot tooffer our listeners because there
are other people who are at a verydifferent stage of this than you.
There are people who are just nowfiguring this out and in that.
Place of where was my help and why didn'tI get any help and more depressed about it
(27:08):
and sad and not, where do I go from here?
And, um, it's very helpful for peopleto hear from people like you who are
for a little bit further down the road.
And understanding this a little more.
So, you know, I'd loveto have you back anytime
Rob (27:25):
I'm happy to help.
And hopefully it reaches somepeople and they can see that there
are things you can do about it.
It just, you know, it takes steps.
And then I went to therapy, Igo to therapy and I go there
to work on relationship skills.
And, and I work at, uh, I work atit hard because I want to have those
relationships and it does work.
(27:45):
It, it can help and you can get there.
Jodi (27:48):
Absolutely.
Totally agree on that.
All right.
Well, thanks so much andhopefully we'll talk again soon.
Rob (27:54):
You're welcome.
Happy to thank you so much.
Bye.
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