August 2, 2023 • 26 mins
In this episode of the "YOUR Neurodiverse Relationship" podcast, my guest, Barbara Grant, and I discuss insights about #counseling and #therapy for that will benefit both therapists and couples.
Part 2 of this podcast episodes airs on Wed, Aug 16, 2023.
Season 3, Episode 11 airs Wed, Aug 2nd here on YouTube and on your favorite podcast platform! https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSyXJdjUav7pSwpq7nmSdEQZMwiI3eqHR
Barbara Grant is a Certified Autism Specialist, ADHD and Neurodiverse Couples Coach, finishing her Masters in MFT (Marriage and Family Therapy.) She has been a therapeutic and spiritual coach since 2005, working with individuals, couples, and groups. Her current neurodiverse neurotypical couples coaching practice also focuses on individuals and families, as well as on offering neurotypical partners and family members support through online therapeutic groups. While she is neurotypical, but has 64+ years of experience with close family members who are neurodiverse. She utilizes her experience to provide clients with compassion, understanding and HOPE. As part of the neurodiverse professional community, she is excited about participating in the ongoing dialog about how to best support and strengthen neurodiverse people and their relationships. Visit Barbara online: https://bg-hc.com/
___________________
👩💼 Hi, I'm Jodi Carlton, a leading world expert on adult #neurodiverserelationship dynamics and interpersonal #communication. I am a seasoned professional with 20+ years of experience as a #therapist and #relationshipcoach specializing in #autism, #ADHD, anxiety, depression, and abuse. I am #trauma certified and trained in Accelerated Resolution Therapy and hypnosis.
MY PERSONAL STORY: Although I have professional counselor education and training, my life experiences in my own neurodiverse marriage, as a parent to my autistic daughter and #adhd son, and my relationships with other neurodiverse family and friends have been my personal training ground. I am also a survivor of narcissistic abuse and have experienced the narc abuse cycle in multiple relationships. I have battled and healed from the codependency that results from having an abusive childhood.
QUIZZES: Take a free quiz at: http://jodicarlton.com
COMPREHENSIVE RELATIONSHIP EVALUATION: Assesses both partners to highlight unique traits and characteristics in areas such as personality, sensory processing, logic & reasoning, empathy, memory, problem-solving, and more.
COACHING: Get clarity about yourself and your relationships to make informed choices, heal from your own pain, and improve your overall quality of life. I coach individuals, couples, and families worldwide using a solution-focused approach that results in life-altering answers and real change.
🎙 PODCAST: Listen to the "YOUR Neurodiverse Relationship" podcast, which has been downloaded in over 70 countries on your favorite podcast platform or watch it here on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSyXJdjUav7pSwpq7nmSdEQZMwiI3eqHR 💁♀️
COMMUNICATION COURSE: The world's first program that facilitates life-altering clarity and change for neurodiverse partners and couples who are stuck in a cycle of rehashing confusing and painful conflict and shutdown. http://CracktheCommunicationCode.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think I counted all the yearsbetween my husbands and my son,
I have 65 years relationshipexperience with neurodiverse people.
So what do we tell them?
What do you tell people if they'retrying to find someone for an autism
evaluation or just therapy, coaching?
What are some of the, questionsyou would encourage people to ask?
Ideally you're gonna get your partneroriented and interested in their neuro
(00:23):
profile, and if they're not, I'lljust say right up front, coaching
or counseling is not gonna work
If someone wants to learn andgrow, we can work with that.
Toxicity is a lifelongcommitment to dysfunction.
There's so much anger fear,bitterness just feeling
violated, having been victimized.
And until you get past that victimmentality, you pretty much don't wanna
(00:47):
take responsibility for anything.
You are truly the only person that youwill live the rest of your life with.
That's what people should becoming to coaching to get.
Their best selves versus my best marriage.
Because I always tell people,"Look, the marriage is a house
that's built of building components,meaning you and your spouse.
(01:07):
And if you guys are warped, termite-infested, moldy, rotten wood, the house
is going to be what it's made out of.
This is season three of the "YourNeurodiverse Relationship" podcast,
which is for adults in all kindsof neurodiverse relationships.
Not just romantic partnerships.
I'm your host, Jodi Carlton, and I'vespent close to two decades growing
(01:30):
in my understanding of how ourdifferent brains influence the way we
understand and relate to each other.
Through the years, I've helpedseveral thousand people understand
themselves and their loved ones.
This podcast is a place whereI come together with others
to talk about their journeys.
I've got a great lineup of guests
talking about things like masking,traits of neurodivergent folks,
(01:52):
traits of neurotypical folks, whatkind of things cause difficulties in
our neurodiverse relationships, butalso some of the wonderful things
about our neurodiverse relationships.
Also this season is a video cast whereyou can enjoy watching on YouTube.
Or you can listen to us on thepodcast like you have before.
If you're really enjoying this podcastand if you've gotten something out
(02:12):
of it, please leave us a review
because reviews really matter andwe want to get this out there to
as many people as possible so theycan benefit from it just like you.
If you're watching on YouTube, besure to subscribe so you'll get
notifications of upcoming podcasts andother videos that I post there as well.
Welcome.
What will we talk about today?
(02:36):
Hi Barbara.
I'm so glad to have you here today.
And could you just maybe startwith introducing yourself?
Tell us a little bit aboutwho you are and what you do.
Thanks, Jodi.
It's so exciting to be here with you.
Love talking with you.
So I am a neurodiverse couplescoach, individual coach.
I work with people who are on the spectrumhigh functioning as well as ADHD or
(03:01):
any other neurodiverse condition, andI have been coaching for several years.
I do everything by Zoom.
I'm based on the West coast, butI have clients internationally.
I really seek to help individuals figureout what their goals are relationally
and even individually in their lives.
(03:23):
My agenda is to be their agenda.
Their motivation that they bring withtheir own goals is what gets them to the
next place that they're trying to grow to.
Background wise, I'm almost done withmy marriage and family therapy masters.
By the time this is out, I'llprobably be done with it.
I've got certifications in autismneurodiverse couples coaching from
(03:45):
several different organizations.
It's all on my website.
And I tell people I have a PhDfrom the "School of Hard Knocks"
because I've had not one, but twolong-term neurodiverse marriages and
currently still in my second marriage.
Plus I have an adultson who's neurodiverse.
(04:07):
I think I counted all the yearsbetween my husbands and my son.
I have 65 years of intimaterelationship experience with
neurodiverse people, just those guys.
There was neurodiversity in myfamily of origin and I always,
I don't know what it was, I'ma little geeky for a girl.
(04:29):
I ran the stage crew and I always thoughtI was a Trekkie as a kid, and I, I've
just always loved sci-fi, so I just speakthe language of many neurodiverse people.
I find them just unique andwonderful as are non-neurodiverse.
I just like pretty much everybody.
(04:51):
I bring that ability to understand thatunique individual and, being interested
in their uniqueness to the work I do.
Again, it's based on whatthey wanna grow and, learn.
Yeah.
I'm glad you mentioned that about beingthe techie geeky girl and, that you've
been in the, two marriages because it'sinteresting how we definitely have a
(05:12):
type, there's a reason why we have atype there's a reason why we choose
who we choose and you talked about evenhaving neurodiversity in your family.
And I think that's so much part of it.
It's the language we learn to speakwith the people in our lives, and I
know for me I've definitely discoveredmore and more over time just how
(05:34):
much neurodiversity is in my family.
In the beginning, my daughter was thefirst identified when she was five.
She's 20 now.
Then we knew my son hadsensory processing and auditory
processing and all this stuff.
It's really been, like you said,the PhD "school of hard knocks."
I totally relate to that because overtime we've realized more and more.
(05:56):
I realized that my grandmother and mymom even at one point in the last year
was finally like, "I think I've, gotsome neurodiversity too," and there
was just these light bulbs goingoff of, "oh, that's what that is."
But there are other family membersand I always went for the IT guys
who were in that techie space that'salways been who, I was attracted to.
(06:21):
There was a cliche you marry yourfather or whatever, but it's really
it's what you're used to, thatlanguage you're used to speaking
in that world that you grow up
in.
And it doesn't seem odd there they mightbe off-putting to somebody to never
see was familiar which is a word thatcomes from family, familiar family and
it is not abnormal to be neurodiverseversus, it's just familiar to you.
(06:43):
Yes.
That someone would be in that vein and youlearn to get on that wavelength without
you realizing you're learning that.
I even had good friends growing upwhen I was young that were neurodiverse
and their parents and now I see it.
When we look back, and I think when,we start to tune into neurodiversity
(07:04):
and all the ways it can present,it's like all of a sudden there's all
these individuals that we remember.
It's not a bad thing.
It's oh that explains his giftednessor her specialty, or why she
was so wonderful in that way.
So there's the wonderful things.
I've had the same thing with friendshipsand cousins in my life and just different
(07:26):
people that I'm, like, "oh, okay."
But yeah, you're right.
It's not about what was wrong.
I don't really rememberfocusing on what was wrong.
It was just, "oh, okay, this is different"or "okay, I'm different from you.
You, do things differently,"but now, now there's that
framework, more of, understanding.
"Oh, that's what that was.
That's, what that is."
(07:46):
And, I think probably maybe like you,I was already learning to navigate
some of those differences and howto build relational workarounds
or communication workaroundsto keep the relationship going.
Yeah.
Long-term experienceswith how to navigate.
And without realizing it, I wastraining to be a neurodiverse
(08:10):
coach or support person, becausethat's what my life experience was.
So it's always so interesting tome how people get to this field.
My observation to so far is almosteveryone in this field has had some
personal experience with neurodiversitybecause as, I said, I'm almost done
(08:32):
with my master's in marriage and familytherapy at an acclaimed university in the
United States, and not one word in anyof the curriculum has been spoken about
neurodiversity of any kind in familyrelationships and how that affects things.
Not a
word.
You said that to me the first time youand I met and we were talking about
(08:54):
that and it still is so frustrating.
I had been recently reaching out tosome of the universities around here
and just throwing out the idea ofmaybe teaching a course or a seminar
and I'm seeing, like you said, there'sjust nothing in their curriculum.
I don't understand all the politicsof academia, not that I would ever
(09:16):
want to, but I know that the schoolthat I have been attending is geared
towards getting students educated sothey can pass a state licensing exam.
So then you have to look at what arethe state licensing exams all about
and do they mention neurodiversity?
Of course they don't.
(09:37):
In fact some of them written 20years ago and maybe a little updated.
So people in school are learningthings that were germane 20 years ago.
So they can pass the licensing exam, butthen they come out and of course licensing
does require continuing educationalunits, CREs or whatever, and that's where
(10:01):
people start getting really trained.
If there's gonna be an educationalpush, it really will be through
trade associations where therapistsand counselors and psychiatrists
and psychologists come together toget their continuing education units
and they can go to a course or a seminartaught at one of these trade associations.
(10:23):
That is gonna be how they learnabout it, but again, unless
you have it in your life,
I was just about to say that.
You just have no context to understandhow it actually works because it's so
similar to so many other dysfunctionalkinds of relational problems.
(10:43):
It can definitely look similar.
and I, think a lot of peoplewho don't have it personally in
their lives, it's not necessarilysomething they're going to pursue.
A lot of the therapists I know maythink "I don't really work with autism."
The thought is kids,it's always about kids.
Yes.
And of course that's important, but somany therapists who are working with
(11:06):
adults who have anxiety and depressionand OCD don't realize they're working
with people who have sensory problems.
It's sensory related.
I can remember way back years agowhen I was still in the clinical
counseling world, I was giving peoplethe sensory profile way back then.
If they came in with anxiety disorders.
(11:27):
I was doing sensory profiles on them.
Cause I'm like, let'ssee if this is sensory.
I just happened to know, but the reasonI happened to know was because my
daughter was diagnosed with autism.
And that's when I dove in and was like,I'm gonna learn everything I possibly can.
I developed an expertise in it andin my region here, I was that go-to
(11:47):
therapist for years because people werelike she knows "She's got a daughter.
She knows about it."
They weren't keeping thoseclients for themselves.
I think that at that time I was workingmore with teenagers and with parents
of children, my focus was on a childbecause I was raising a child and
that was what I was learning about.
But I know even then I didn't realizethat some of the adults that came to me
(12:11):
I, was recognizing the sensory issues,
but the apple doesn'tfall far from the tree.
I know.
And we've got the research now.
I was looking at some studies recentlyand we know about one in 36 kids are
diagnosed, but we also know now that 81%of neurodiverse traits are hereditary.
That one in 36 number is lowerbecause that was based on data coming
(12:35):
out of 2016 or 18 and the 2020 datathat the CDC evaluates because of
covid, there's been a big delay.
You and I know also that A D H D andautism are highly comorbid, meaning
many people have both of them.
Meaning 45 to 75% of the people whoare high functioning autism also have
(13:01):
some level of manifestation of ADHD.
And it's just now very apparentto me and others in our field
that this whole neurodiversething, it's just all neurological.
To slot people's presentingtraits into boxes or silos is so
ridiculous, like medieval thinking.
(13:24):
Let's think three dimensionally.
Let's understand that there's a lot ofpossible and I tell people it's not a
spectrum of a linear this way or that way.
It is a three dimensionalaccess of possible presentation,
of constellation of traits.
And, there's so many differentsubtypes and, characteristics that.
(13:46):
Another thing I wanna add to that, alot of people maybe mention it or get
evaluated and they're told, oh, youdon't have ASD, or, you're not ADHD,
but what they don't understand is what'scalled the broad autism phenotype,
BAP, which is very prevalent, meaningmany people who either have an autistic
(14:07):
person in their family or are themselvesgenetically inclined in that neurological
profile, don't have the full presentationof all of the different criteria
that they wanna see in the DSM 5.
. So they don't qualify for a diagnosisby the rules that insurance will
(14:29):
provide, but that doesn't mean theydon't have challenges based on their
neurology or relational confusionor communication or sensory things.
I think the whole, I can't wait forthe DSM 6 to come out, not that it's
gonna be that much better, but Ithink one of the things that we, as
(14:50):
professionals, can do is continue tospeak to the people doing the research.
I'm helping Dr.
Stephanie Holmes witha research project now.
Getting the research out there andpublishing and documenting is critical to
making the case for the things that youand I know very well from experience are
going on and academia is like clueless.
(15:12):
Not to say, neuroscience is, oh my gosh.
Neuroscience is like light years ahead of
where we can apply the knowledge thatthe, that they're understanding on a
neurological level and that's very good.
But I think there's a big gapbetween the people in the field
who have fallen into the field orbacked into the field like you and I
(15:35):
and who they're training at school.
In fact just recently I had a friendlyzoom with two or three other fellow
classmates that are in my cohort andI had mentioned on our Facebook page
that I'm a coach and I'm not gonnaget licensed because licensing for
me would really restrict my practice.
Yeah.
And like I said, Ipractice around the globe.
(15:57):
They were fascinated by howI'm doing my coaching work.
They said what is it that you're coaching?
And I explained I have a bit of aspecialty and I explained what it
is and one woman, she just was like,she goes, "Barbara can, I call you?
Can we talk one offline?"
and her daughter is married to somebodywho is neurodiverse and until I said it,
(16:22):
this fellow classmate didn't know andwhen I started talking about it, she was
like, but here she was almost finishedwith her master's of marriage and family
in her own family, her own son-in-lawand that there would be such a thing
as specific help that couple needed.
(16:43):
She didn't even know it existed.
That was exciting.
I think what you experienced with her isjust, it's such a common thing and, it's
like you said, it's not until some kindof light bulb goes off for someone like it
did for her when she talked to you, thatthen it's pursued by those professionals.
(17:05):
And I know that just becausethe rate of neurodiversity is so
high in what we've even diagnosed,that's just the diagnosed rate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, say this in my podcast and my videosall the time, every therapist is working
with neurodivergent clients, period.
Hands down, no question to me.
(17:28):
There's just not a knowledgeor an awareness of what
that looks like in adults.
There's just been so muchfocus on little kids and little
boys even more so than, girls,
and female neurodivergence can look reallydifferent than even what people do think
of adult autistic or adult neurodivergent,there's a, stereotypical type of checklist
(17:54):
like you said, but females oftentimeslook really different than that.
Yeah.
I love the fact that Stephanie'sdoing this research and that
you're on board with that.
I was actually recently thinkingabout going back to do a PhD and I
was looking at at universities I'vegot my master's in counseling, but
I was looking at universities, I waslike, where could I get the most bang
(18:15):
for my buck in terms of accessing
research dollars?
In Australia they're doing a lot ofgreat research at the doctoral level
Yeah.
Because I, and I'm I, actuallyhadn't looked at Australia yet.
I'm not sure I'm quite readyto go that far from my kids,
but I dunno though, some days.
But I was looking at some institutionsaround here and it's not even
(18:36):
mentioned on their websites.
Usually you have to have a professoralready on staff who's doing work
in that field and I'm like, wow,I'm gonna have to really look hard
Another approach you could take,I don't know if you have access
to any research libraries.
Because I'm in school, I do.
I've done so many downloads of articlesthat have been written over the last
(18:58):
10 years around neurodiversity forrelationship and ADHD or autism.
There's been stuff internationallywritten and finding those individuals
who contributed and findingout if they are on a faculty.
Who would they know?
It's really word of mouth.
It's not obvious.
Yeah.
Schools don't talk about it andgood luck trying to cherry pick a
(19:21):
professor to call and ask about it.
You're right.
Yeah.
I was actually looking at someof the studies and the authors
and was there a universityattached to this research study?
I don't know if I'll pursue that ornot, but it's something that I was
looking into in the last six months.
There's just such a need for it.
So, let's talk about how allof this applies a lot of the
(19:44):
people listening to this podcast.
We definitely have therapistsand psychologists and social
workers who listen to the podcast.
Then we have a lot of peoplewho are trying to find help.
So they're going to therapists.
Let's tell people what to ask,what kind of questions to ask when
they're trying to find a provider.
Some people wanna use theirinsurance and I understand why.
(20:06):
I understand why theyneed to use insurance.
I'm in the same boat asyou without a license.
I used to be licensed, but I made itinactive a few years ago because I'm like
you, I'm working with people around theworld and insurance requires licensure
in the state of residence of a client.
But I understand why people needto be able to use their insurance
(20:29):
because we can't lower our ratesdown to the insurance reimbursable
rate or we will go out of businessand then we're not helping anybody.
So what do we tell them?
What do you tell people if they'retrying to find someone for an autism
evaluation or just therapy, coaching?
What are some of the, questionsyou would encourage people to ask?
I love that question.
(20:50):
Very helpful for the oneswho will be listening.
So I, first of all would advise themto do as much of their own research
online about this as they can.
To read a few good books, oneexcellent one, is "The Complete
Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" by Dr.
Tony Atwood, but there are other reallygood books out there and a lot of
(21:12):
books about ADHD, ADHD and marriage.
So I would start with educating yourselfif they hadn't already done that.
Ideally you're gonna get your partneroriented and interested in their neuro
profile, and if they're not, I'lljust say right up front, coaching or
counseling is not gonna work becausethe neurodiverse person, if they're
(21:37):
not willing to or interested orcurious about learning more about their
A coach or a therapist who's goingto be one of the, in my opinion,
better professionals to work with, isgoing to readily disclose that to you.
They're gonna know how important it is.
Exactly, yes.
So they're gonna be like "yes!" (21:56):
And they may not tell you, " I'm married, or it's
my mom," or they may not tell you who,but they're, exactly what you just said.
They're gonna know that it'simportant for you to know why
this is an important specialty to
me.
Yeah.
And another thing as you weretalking that I was thinking about
(22:17):
is, again, coming out of a marriageand family systems family training.
I've been indoctrinated, the thingI had to really push against was the
idea that the couple is the client.
Individuals are not the client,the couple is the client and the
marriage is the client, and thatactually is very counterproductive
in neurodiverse coaching.
(22:39):
When I start with a couple,I have a roadmap to coaching.
It's a track and the phase one isthey're working separately with me.
Because they have entirelydifferent things that they each
need to learn and deal with andmilestones that they have to reach.
So they can come togetherand do couples work.
(22:59):
So I would tell a prospective somebodylooking for a therapist to present the
fact that they're on different pages.
And you can have a session or two to findout what the issues are, but again, the
neurodiverse person, if they're motivated,they need to be helped to really see the
(23:20):
extent of any mind blindness or theirlack of self-regulation and, strategies
that they can learn to improve that.
That they have to own something.
There's a grievingcomponent for both people.
They're grieving separate things,but they have to grieve, they have
to be affirmed in that and supported.
So if that's why most of thistherapy licensed therapists who
(23:44):
have no neurodiverse specialty,I think it blows up because the
individuals come with all of these
trauma problems and individual needs.
And they just start trying to
"how do we save the marriage?"
And they can't even be in thesame room with each other.
No.
For good reasons.
For good reasons.
(24:07):
I'm so glad you brought that upbecause I 100% agree with you on that
because there's so many differentthings that need to be addressed
with each person individually.
And in my opinion what I tell clientsI'm pro human being and if that means
we can save a marriage, fantastic.
I'm not in favor a marriage dissolving.
(24:30):
But what I tell folks is, okay,you've got this new framework they
may be six months into dating, orthey may be 35 years into a marriage.
Yeah.
And I'm like, okay, you've gotthis new framework that you
didn't have when you first met.
Your relationship is built onconfusing differences in language
and expectations and neurology.
(24:52):
Now you have this framework.
The only way you can really choose yourpartner is for you to go back and figure
out who your partner is and who you are.
Yeah.
You know who, you are at thispoint, because otherwise you don't
even know what you're choosing.
Yeah.
And so we have to back it up so that youcan really understand yourself, understand
(25:14):
your partner, and then choose all over
again.
Or recommit with an understanding of,"oh, this is what I'm dealing with."
Okay.
I'm going to stop there for part oneof my podcast with Barbara Grant.
Be sure to tune in in two weeks for theremainder of my conversation with Barbara.
Where we go on to talk more abouttoxicity in relationships and how that
(25:36):
impacts therapy and therapists themselvesand couples who go into therapy.
You're not going to wantto miss that episode.
Thank you so much to all of myguests of Season 3 of the "YOUR
Neurodiverse Relationship" podcast.
These folks are bringing theirlives to you to help all of
you out there who are trying tofigure out your own relationships.
(25:56):
If you'd ever be interested inbeing on a podcast, just email
us at gethelp@jodicarlton.com.
Also be sure to visit me onlineat jodicarlton.com to see all the
resources that I have available to you.
Until next time.
I think I counted all the yearsbetween my husbands and my son,
I have 65 years relationshipexperience with neurodiverse people.
So what do we tell them?
What do you tell people if they'retrying to find someone for an autism
evaluation or just therapy, coaching?
What are some of the, questionsyou would encourage people to ask?
Ideally you're gonna get your partneroriented and interested in their neuro
(00:23):
profile, and if they're not, I'lljust say right up front, coaching
or counseling is not gonna work
If someone wants to learn andgrow, we can work with that.
Toxicity is a lifelongcommitment to dysfunction.
There's so much anger fear,bitterness just feeling
violated, having been victimized.
And until you get past that victimmentality, you pretty much don't wanna
(00:47):
take responsibility for anything.
You are truly the only person that youwill live the rest of your life with.
That's what people should becoming to coaching to get.
Their best selves versus my best marriage.
Because I always tell people,"Look, the marriage is a house
that's built of building components,meaning you and your spouse.
(01:07):
And if you guys are warped, termite-infested, moldy, rotten wood, the house
is going to be what it's made out of.
This is season three of the "YourNeurodiverse Relationship" podcast,
which is for adults in all kindsof neurodiverse relationships.
Not just romantic partnerships.
I'm your host, Jodi Carlton, and I'vespent close to two decades growing
(01:30):
in my understanding of how ourdifferent brains influence the way we
understand and relate to each other.
Through the years, I've helpedseveral thousand people understand
themselves and their loved ones.
This podcast is a place whereI come together with others
to talk about their journeys.
I've got a great lineup of guests
talking about things like masking,traits of neurodivergent folks,
(01:52):
traits of neurotypical folks, whatkind of things cause difficulties in
our neurodiverse relationships, butalso some of the wonderful things
about our neurodiverse relationships.
Also this season is a video cast whereyou can enjoy watching on YouTube.
Or you can listen to us on thepodcast like you have before.
If you're really enjoying this podcastand if you've gotten something out
(02:12):
of it, please leave us a review
because reviews really matter andwe want to get this out there to
as many people as possible so theycan benefit from it just like you.
If you're watching on YouTube, besure to subscribe so you'll get
notifications of upcoming podcasts andother videos that I post there as well.
Welcome.
What will we talk about today?
(02:36):
Hi Barbara.
I'm so glad to have you here today.
And could you just maybe startwith introducing yourself?
Tell us a little bit aboutwho you are and what you do.
Thanks, Jodi.
It's so exciting to be here with you.
Love talking with you.
So I am a neurodiverse couplescoach, individual coach.
I work with people who are on the spectrumhigh functioning as well as ADHD or
(03:01):
any other neurodiverse condition, andI have been coaching for several years.
I do everything by Zoom.
I'm based on the West coast, butI have clients internationally.
I really seek to help individuals figureout what their goals are relationally
and even individually in their lives.
(03:23):
My agenda is to be their agenda.
Their motivation that they bring withtheir own goals is what gets them to the
next place that they're trying to grow to.
Background wise, I'm almost done withmy marriage and family therapy masters.
By the time this is out, I'llprobably be done with it.
I've got certifications in autismneurodiverse couples coaching from
(03:45):
several different organizations.
It's all on my website.
And I tell people I have a PhDfrom the "School of Hard Knocks"
because I've had not one, but twolong-term neurodiverse marriages and
currently still in my second marriage.
Plus I have an adultson who's neurodiverse.
(04:07):
I think I counted all the yearsbetween my husbands and my son.
I have 65 years of intimaterelationship experience with
neurodiverse people, just those guys.
There was neurodiversity in myfamily of origin and I always,
I don't know what it was, I'ma little geeky for a girl.
(04:29):
I ran the stage crew and I always thoughtI was a Trekkie as a kid, and I, I've
just always loved sci-fi, so I just speakthe language of many neurodiverse people.
I find them just unique andwonderful as are non-neurodiverse.
I just like pretty much everybody.
(04:51):
I bring that ability to understand thatunique individual and, being interested
in their uniqueness to the work I do.
Again, it's based on whatthey wanna grow and, learn.
Yeah.
I'm glad you mentioned that about beingthe techie geeky girl and, that you've
been in the, two marriages because it'sinteresting how we definitely have a
(05:12):
type, there's a reason why we have atype there's a reason why we choose
who we choose and you talked about evenhaving neurodiversity in your family.
And I think that's so much part of it.
It's the language we learn to speakwith the people in our lives, and I
know for me I've definitely discoveredmore and more over time just how
(05:34):
much neurodiversity is in my family.
In the beginning, my daughter was thefirst identified when she was five.
She's 20 now.
Then we knew my son hadsensory processing and auditory
processing and all this stuff.
It's really been, like you said,the PhD "school of hard knocks."
I totally relate to that because overtime we've realized more and more.
(05:56):
I realized that my grandmother and mymom even at one point in the last year
was finally like, "I think I've, gotsome neurodiversity too," and there
was just these light bulbs goingoff of, "oh, that's what that is."
But there are other family membersand I always went for the IT guys
who were in that techie space that'salways been who, I was attracted to.
(06:21):
There was a cliche you marry yourfather or whatever, but it's really
it's what you're used to, thatlanguage you're used to speaking
in that world that you grow up
in.
And it doesn't seem odd there they mightbe off-putting to somebody to never
see was familiar which is a word thatcomes from family, familiar family and
it is not abnormal to be neurodiverseversus, it's just familiar to you.
(06:43):
Yes.
That someone would be in that vein and youlearn to get on that wavelength without
you realizing you're learning that.
I even had good friends growing upwhen I was young that were neurodiverse
and their parents and now I see it.
When we look back, and I think when,we start to tune into neurodiversity
(07:04):
and all the ways it can present,it's like all of a sudden there's all
these individuals that we remember.
It's not a bad thing.
It's oh that explains his giftednessor her specialty, or why she
was so wonderful in that way.
So there's the wonderful things.
I've had the same thing with friendshipsand cousins in my life and just different
(07:26):
people that I'm, like, "oh, okay."
But yeah, you're right.
It's not about what was wrong.
I don't really rememberfocusing on what was wrong.
It was just, "oh, okay, this is different"or "okay, I'm different from you.
You, do things differently,"but now, now there's that
framework, more of, understanding.
"Oh, that's what that was.
That's, what that is."
(07:46):
And, I think probably maybe like you,I was already learning to navigate
some of those differences and howto build relational workarounds
or communication workaroundsto keep the relationship going.
Yeah.
Long-term experienceswith how to navigate.
And without realizing it, I wastraining to be a neurodiverse
(08:10):
coach or support person, becausethat's what my life experience was.
So it's always so interesting tome how people get to this field.
My observation to so far is almosteveryone in this field has had some
personal experience with neurodiversitybecause as, I said, I'm almost done
(08:32):
with my master's in marriage and familytherapy at an acclaimed university in the
United States, and not one word in anyof the curriculum has been spoken about
neurodiversity of any kind in familyrelationships and how that affects things.
Not a
word.
You said that to me the first time youand I met and we were talking about
(08:54):
that and it still is so frustrating.
I had been recently reaching out tosome of the universities around here
and just throwing out the idea ofmaybe teaching a course or a seminar
and I'm seeing, like you said, there'sjust nothing in their curriculum.
I don't understand all the politicsof academia, not that I would ever
(09:16):
want to, but I know that the schoolthat I have been attending is geared
towards getting students educated sothey can pass a state licensing exam.
So then you have to look at what arethe state licensing exams all about
and do they mention neurodiversity?
Of course they don't.
(09:37):
In fact some of them written 20years ago and maybe a little updated.
So people in school are learningthings that were germane 20 years ago.
So they can pass the licensing exam, butthen they come out and of course licensing
does require continuing educationalunits, CREs or whatever, and that's where
(10:01):
people start getting really trained.
If there's gonna be an educationalpush, it really will be through
trade associations where therapistsand counselors and psychiatrists
and psychologists come together toget their continuing education units
and they can go to a course or a seminartaught at one of these trade associations.
(10:23):
That is gonna be how they learnabout it, but again, unless
you have it in your life,
I was just about to say that.
You just have no context to understandhow it actually works because it's so
similar to so many other dysfunctionalkinds of relational problems.
(10:43):
It can definitely look similar.
and I, think a lot of peoplewho don't have it personally in
their lives, it's not necessarilysomething they're going to pursue.
A lot of the therapists I know maythink "I don't really work with autism."
The thought is kids,it's always about kids.
Yes.
And of course that's important, but somany therapists who are working with
(11:06):
adults who have anxiety and depressionand OCD don't realize they're working
with people who have sensory problems.
It's sensory related.
I can remember way back years agowhen I was still in the clinical
counseling world, I was giving peoplethe sensory profile way back then.
If they came in with anxiety disorders.
(11:27):
I was doing sensory profiles on them.
Cause I'm like, let'ssee if this is sensory.
I just happened to know, but the reasonI happened to know was because my
daughter was diagnosed with autism.
And that's when I dove in and was like,I'm gonna learn everything I possibly can.
I developed an expertise in it andin my region here, I was that go-to
(11:47):
therapist for years because people werelike she knows "She's got a daughter.
She knows about it."
They weren't keeping thoseclients for themselves.
I think that at that time I was workingmore with teenagers and with parents
of children, my focus was on a childbecause I was raising a child and
that was what I was learning about.
But I know even then I didn't realizethat some of the adults that came to me
(12:11):
I, was recognizing the sensory issues,
but the apple doesn'tfall far from the tree.
I know.
And we've got the research now.
I was looking at some studies recentlyand we know about one in 36 kids are
diagnosed, but we also know now that 81%of neurodiverse traits are hereditary.
That one in 36 number is lowerbecause that was based on data coming
(12:35):
out of 2016 or 18 and the 2020 datathat the CDC evaluates because of
covid, there's been a big delay.
You and I know also that A D H D andautism are highly comorbid, meaning
many people have both of them.
Meaning 45 to 75% of the people whoare high functioning autism also have
(13:01):
some level of manifestation of ADHD.
And it's just now very apparentto me and others in our field
that this whole neurodiversething, it's just all neurological.
To slot people's presentingtraits into boxes or silos is so
ridiculous, like medieval thinking.
(13:24):
Let's think three dimensionally.
Let's understand that there's a lot ofpossible and I tell people it's not a
spectrum of a linear this way or that way.
It is a three dimensionalaccess of possible presentation,
of constellation of traits.
And, there's so many differentsubtypes and, characteristics that.
(13:46):
Another thing I wanna add to that, alot of people maybe mention it or get
evaluated and they're told, oh, youdon't have ASD, or, you're not ADHD,
but what they don't understand is what'scalled the broad autism phenotype,
BAP, which is very prevalent, meaningmany people who either have an autistic
(14:07):
person in their family or are themselvesgenetically inclined in that neurological
profile, don't have the full presentationof all of the different criteria
that they wanna see in the DSM 5.
. So they don't qualify for a diagnosisby the rules that insurance will
(14:29):
provide, but that doesn't mean theydon't have challenges based on their
neurology or relational confusionor communication or sensory things.
I think the whole, I can't wait forthe DSM 6 to come out, not that it's
gonna be that much better, but Ithink one of the things that we, as
(14:50):
professionals, can do is continue tospeak to the people doing the research.
I'm helping Dr.
Stephanie Holmes witha research project now.
Getting the research out there andpublishing and documenting is critical to
making the case for the things that youand I know very well from experience are
going on and academia is like clueless.
(15:12):
Not to say, neuroscience is, oh my gosh.
Neuroscience is like light years ahead of
where we can apply the knowledge thatthe, that they're understanding on a
neurological level and that's very good.
But I think there's a big gapbetween the people in the field
who have fallen into the field orbacked into the field like you and I
(15:35):
and who they're training at school.
In fact just recently I had a friendlyzoom with two or three other fellow
classmates that are in my cohort andI had mentioned on our Facebook page
that I'm a coach and I'm not gonnaget licensed because licensing for
me would really restrict my practice.
Yeah.
And like I said, Ipractice around the globe.
(15:57):
They were fascinated by howI'm doing my coaching work.
They said what is it that you're coaching?
And I explained I have a bit of aspecialty and I explained what it
is and one woman, she just was like,she goes, "Barbara can, I call you?
Can we talk one offline?"
and her daughter is married to somebodywho is neurodiverse and until I said it,
(16:22):
this fellow classmate didn't know andwhen I started talking about it, she was
like, but here she was almost finishedwith her master's of marriage and family
in her own family, her own son-in-lawand that there would be such a thing
as specific help that couple needed.
(16:43):
She didn't even know it existed.
That was exciting.
I think what you experienced with her isjust, it's such a common thing and, it's
like you said, it's not until some kindof light bulb goes off for someone like it
did for her when she talked to you, thatthen it's pursued by those professionals.
(17:05):
And I know that just becausethe rate of neurodiversity is so
high in what we've even diagnosed,that's just the diagnosed rate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, say this in my podcast and my videosall the time, every therapist is working
with neurodivergent clients, period.
Hands down, no question to me.
(17:28):
There's just not a knowledgeor an awareness of what
that looks like in adults.
There's just been so muchfocus on little kids and little
boys even more so than, girls,
and female neurodivergence can look reallydifferent than even what people do think
of adult autistic or adult neurodivergent,there's a, stereotypical type of checklist
(17:54):
like you said, but females oftentimeslook really different than that.
Yeah.
I love the fact that Stephanie'sdoing this research and that
you're on board with that.
I was actually recently thinkingabout going back to do a PhD and I
was looking at at universities I'vegot my master's in counseling, but
I was looking at universities, I waslike, where could I get the most bang
(18:15):
for my buck in terms of accessing
research dollars?
In Australia they're doing a lot ofgreat research at the doctoral level
Yeah.
Because I, and I'm I, actuallyhadn't looked at Australia yet.
I'm not sure I'm quite readyto go that far from my kids,
but I dunno though, some days.
But I was looking at some institutionsaround here and it's not even
(18:36):
mentioned on their websites.
Usually you have to have a professoralready on staff who's doing work
in that field and I'm like, wow,I'm gonna have to really look hard
Another approach you could take,I don't know if you have access
to any research libraries.
Because I'm in school, I do.
I've done so many downloads of articlesthat have been written over the last
(18:58):
10 years around neurodiversity forrelationship and ADHD or autism.
There's been stuff internationallywritten and finding those individuals
who contributed and findingout if they are on a faculty.
Who would they know?
It's really word of mouth.
It's not obvious.
Yeah.
Schools don't talk about it andgood luck trying to cherry pick a
(19:21):
professor to call and ask about it.
You're right.
Yeah.
I was actually looking at someof the studies and the authors
and was there a universityattached to this research study?
I don't know if I'll pursue that ornot, but it's something that I was
looking into in the last six months.
There's just such a need for it.
So, let's talk about how allof this applies a lot of the
(19:44):
people listening to this podcast.
We definitely have therapistsand psychologists and social
workers who listen to the podcast.
Then we have a lot of peoplewho are trying to find help.
So they're going to therapists.
Let's tell people what to ask,what kind of questions to ask when
they're trying to find a provider.
Some people wanna use theirinsurance and I understand why.
(20:06):
I understand why theyneed to use insurance.
I'm in the same boat asyou without a license.
I used to be licensed, but I made itinactive a few years ago because I'm like
you, I'm working with people around theworld and insurance requires licensure
in the state of residence of a client.
But I understand why people needto be able to use their insurance
(20:29):
because we can't lower our ratesdown to the insurance reimbursable
rate or we will go out of businessand then we're not helping anybody.
So what do we tell them?
What do you tell people if they'retrying to find someone for an autism
evaluation or just therapy, coaching?
What are some of the, questionsyou would encourage people to ask?
I love that question.
(20:50):
Very helpful for the oneswho will be listening.
So I, first of all would advise themto do as much of their own research
online about this as they can.
To read a few good books, oneexcellent one, is "The Complete
Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" by Dr.
Tony Atwood, but there are other reallygood books out there and a lot of
(21:12):
books about ADHD, ADHD and marriage.
So I would start with educating yourselfif they hadn't already done that.
Ideally you're gonna get your partneroriented and interested in their neuro
profile, and if they're not, I'lljust say right up front, coaching or
counseling is not gonna work becausethe neurodiverse person, if they're
(21:37):
not willing to or interested orcurious about learning more about their
A coach or a therapist who's goingto be one of the, in my opinion,
better professionals to work with, isgoing to readily disclose that to you.
They're gonna know how important it is.
Exactly, yes.
So they're gonna be like "yes!" (21:56):
And they may not tell you, " I'm married, or it's
my mom," or they may not tell you who,but they're, exactly what you just said.
They're gonna know that it'simportant for you to know why
this is an important specialty to
me.
Yeah.
And another thing as you weretalking that I was thinking about
(22:17):
is, again, coming out of a marriageand family systems family training.
I've been indoctrinated, the thingI had to really push against was the
idea that the couple is the client.
Individuals are not the client,the couple is the client and the
marriage is the client, and thatactually is very counterproductive
in neurodiverse coaching.
(22:39):
When I start with a couple,I have a roadmap to coaching.
It's a track and the phase one isthey're working separately with me.
Because they have entirelydifferent things that they each
need to learn and deal with andmilestones that they have to reach.
So they can come togetherand do couples work.
(22:59):
So I would tell a prospective somebodylooking for a therapist to present the
fact that they're on different pages.
And you can have a session or two to findout what the issues are, but again, the
neurodiverse person, if they're motivated,they need to be helped to really see the
(23:20):
extent of any mind blindness or theirlack of self-regulation and, strategies
that they can learn to improve that.
That they have to own something.
There's a grievingcomponent for both people.
They're grieving separate things,but they have to grieve, they have
to be affirmed in that and supported.
So if that's why most of thistherapy licensed therapists who
(23:44):
have no neurodiverse specialty,I think it blows up because the
individuals come with all of these
trauma problems and individual needs.
And they just start trying to
"how do we save the marriage?"
And they can't even be in thesame room with each other.
No.
For good reasons.
For good reasons.
(24:07):
I'm so glad you brought that upbecause I 100% agree with you on that
because there's so many differentthings that need to be addressed
with each person individually.
And in my opinion what I tell clientsI'm pro human being and if that means
we can save a marriage, fantastic.
I'm not in favor a marriage dissolving.
(24:30):
But what I tell folks is, okay,you've got this new framework they
may be six months into dating, orthey may be 35 years into a marriage.
Yeah.
And I'm like, okay, you've gotthis new framework that you
didn't have when you first met.
Your relationship is built onconfusing differences in language
and expectations and neurology.
(24:52):
Now you have this framework.
The only way you can really choose yourpartner is for you to go back and figure
out who your partner is and who you are.
Yeah.
You know who, you are at thispoint, because otherwise you don't
even know what you're choosing.
Yeah.
And so we have to back it up so that youcan really understand yourself, understand
(25:14):
your partner, and then choose all over
again.
Or recommit with an understanding of,"oh, this is what I'm dealing with."
Okay.
I'm going to stop there for part oneof my podcast with Barbara Grant.
Be sure to tune in in two weeks for theremainder of my conversation with Barbara.
Where we go on to talk more abouttoxicity in relationships and how that
(25:36):
impacts therapy and therapists themselvesand couples who go into therapy.
You're not going to wantto miss that episode.
Thank you so much to all of myguests of Season 3 of the "YOUR
Neurodiverse Relationship" podcast.
These folks are bringing theirlives to you to help all of
you out there who are trying tofigure out your own relationships.
(25:56):
If you'd ever be interested inbeing on a podcast, just email
us at gethelp@jodicarlton.com.
Also be sure to visit me onlineat jodicarlton.com to see all the
resources that I have available to you.
Until next time.
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