When Autism Enters the Relationship: How They Built Strategies Instead of Resentment

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hello, and welcome to season five of the,your neuro-diverse relationship podcast.
I'm Jodi Carlton, your host, and I'ma neurodiverse relationship expert.
But like so many of you I'vebeen on my own journey of
discovering and understanding.
Neuro-diversity both in my personal lifewith my family members and even myself.
And professionally as atherapist and now relationship

(00:24):
coach people around the world.
I'm often asked, can neuro diversepartner relationships actually work.
And the answer is absolutely.
They can't.
Just like any relationship.
There are core variables that influencewhether or not you'll thrive as a
couple neurodiverse relationships areno different, but they have the added
layer of being neurodiverse where oneor both partners is neurodivergent.

(00:44):
So this season I've got alineup of couples and partners
who are in neuro-diverserelationships that are working.
They get real personal with meabout the challenges they have
faced and how they've overcome thosechallenges in their relationships.
Let's get started.
Welcome to the show.
And I really appreciateyou both being here, Amy.
I know you from our neurodiversepeer professional, , group where your

(01:06):
colleague, Laura Schreiner invitedyou to join us and Laura's another on
another episode of , this podcast series.
I was really excited when yousaid you and Mike, your husband
wanted to be on this series.
So why don't we start with.
If you guys would just be willing toshare a little bit about yourselves
and, whatever you think's relevant.
my name's Amy, like youmentioned, I'm a therapist.

(01:27):
I work with individualsin neurodiverse couples.
I do not do couples work.
And a big part of my interest is once myhusband and I figured out that we were
a neurodiverse couple which we can talka little bit about the journey there.
Do you want to add something for yourself?
Oh, sure.
Mike I work in supply chain for a hospitalsystem and it was about three years ago

(01:48):
that we figured out that I'm autistic.
It had been quite a challengegetting there though.
Probably about five years of thinkingthat I had chronic depression.
And trying to, steps to work on it and notgetting any kind of relief really from it.
It was Amy that had found out moreabout autism and, has helped me

(02:13):
figure out things about myself
Thanks in part to our buddy, Laura.
That's right.
And also one of our childrenwas in the same process.
So it sort of all worked together.
You know, like so many couples with kids,it's like, as you start figuring out
one of the kids is autistic, it's like,you know, this seems pretty familiar.
should we look around the family?
I hear that all the time and it'scertainly been the case in my own family.

(02:37):
And my daughter was , theone that got us started.
She's 22 now.
And when she was five, she was diagnosedwith what was then called pervasive
developmental disorder, which is nowwould be considered level one autistic
and since that time, we've realized that.
Her brother's ADHD.
I'm ADHD, which I didn't even realizeuntil a couple years ago or so, which is

(02:59):
crazy because I'm in this field, but thatjust goes to show how it's hard to spot
sometimes, especially when you're, you'reliving it and you're like so close to it.
It's hard to, to see.
But we've realized my mother'sautistic, my grandmother, their
dad, my children's father, myuncle, it was just, it started with.
You know, my daughter and her diagnosisand us learning more about it over time.

(03:22):
So, so tell us a little bitmore about that journey for you.
Cause , I think a lot of peopleare going to resonate with how
you came to this, discovery.
Sure.
Probably before a few years ago, I don'tthink I really knew a thing about autism.
Back then it started out withtrying to find mental health.
Professionals like, psychiatrists and therapists.

(03:44):
As far as I knew, we treat depressionwith therapy and medication, and so
we started trying a lot of different.
Therapists and psychiatrists and, youknow, everyone said the same thing, that
depression never brought up autism at all.
Can I interject?
Sure.
So, I would say when we reallystarted , to just see that Mike

(04:05):
was struggling and needed help wasreally when we had our first baby.
Because prior to that we had just sortof been very compatible and without
intentionally doing this, had thissetup that worked really well for really
both of us, but Mike in particular,that we had different work shifts.
So during the course of the week, wedidn't see each other like that much.

(04:26):
So Mike had plenty of likedowntime and alone time to like
engage in special interests.
If he worked second shift, like I wouldgo out with friends and have my social
time, you know, things like that.
And then on the weekend, I mean,we would just be inseparable.
And also without.
Putting effort into this.
This is something that works well for us.
, you can't necessarilyreplicate it if it's not you.

(04:46):
We're both homebodies.
Like, we don't likebeing out in the world.
I don't either.
I,
I call it going out into the wild.
Yeah, exactly.
So it just worked well, but like,you know, he works second shift
and so he'd get home like 11th.
We just like, let's hang out and likechat a little bit and go to sleep.
And on the weekends, you know, I mean,like, we might go out to dinner, but

(05:07):
we're not like, let's go clubbing.
It's like, it just, Imean, it was so smooth.
And I know even all my friendswere like, you guys have like the
least conflictual relationship
Unintentionally had set up.
a lifestyle that really worked for me andmy brain to get all the, the relaxation
and alone time that I needed, like asidefrom work, I was pretty much free to

(05:29):
just pursue my own special interests andhave all the time I needed to recharge.
So yeah, everything right.
And I want to circle back to that.
conversation because I think what you'redescribing is so important as a part of
how couples , you know, what we need tolook at in terms of how to structure our

(05:51):
lives in order for the couple relationshipto thrive, because you just described why
and you understand why it was thriving.
But then you had a child and ababy, and this is , really common.
And Amy, you probably seethis in your practice as well.
It's really common for autism, autistic,over overwhelm and overload to really

(06:11):
show up when , , that first baby arrivesand, I know why, but I want you guys
to describe it from your experience.
What, What happened?
Well, there's a lot of factors.
So one was that I had quit my full timejob and I ended up working part time,
but I mean, for me, all of a sudden mysocial needs were this little person who
didn't talk and who cried at me a lot.

(06:32):
So when Mike was home, I would belike, desperate for connection.
I'm like, Hey, let's talk.
What have you been doing?
What's it like in the world?
Mike, who recently hit all this downtime.
No more downtime, and you know,a wife desperate to talk, and
Right, all that alone time is nowtaking care of the baby, and, yeah,
we had, No more special interest time.

(06:53):
Our schedules lining up so thatwe are home at the same time.
No more sleeping.
Yeah, right, very little sleep.
No more hot food.
Mike really, and actually both of usagain, I think, compatibility thing.
We both like routines and likethat was just like shattered.
And so I think there was so muchstress that got put into the system.
And I mean, for the most part,you know, we're very happy.

(07:15):
We have this nice baby.
It's very cute.
He's very fun to spend time with.
But there is that likedifficult adjustment period.
And I think for Mike, that wasreally where else and he just kind
of like had been fine, fine, fine.
And then like, you know, treading waterand then like drowning And then there's
kind of the, I don't want to speak foryou, but I will, but there's guilt on top

(07:36):
of it because there's a sense of like,I should be the happiest I've ever been,
which I just see with all new parents.
It's like, no, but you're notbecause you're also stressed out and
you don't sleep and you don't eat.
Like you don't feel good anymore.
Understanding why can't we do this?
Like, why can't I?
Have the social battery to take care ofthe kid and, you know, be around for Amy.

(07:58):
That yeah, it just didn't, didn't cut it.
There's this social expectationwhen we have a baby that it's
such a joyful experience.
, and there is that piece of it.
Yes.
But, there's a lot more to it.
Just the exhaustion alone, the sleepdeprivation alone can cause so many other.

(08:18):
issues for us.
And, that in and of itself reducesour, our executive functioning so
much is impacted just by the sleep.
But then, like you said, there'salso this huge adjustment where
your needs were getting met.
Both of you, I mean, you've talked aboutyour social needs, , your interaction
Even though you don't like going outin the world, you have, you're more,

(08:39):
it sounds more like a social introvert.
Yeah.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah.
I'm
like, I'm an ambivert whenI've done the testing.
So like, I like people, I just like acertain amount and I don't like, like
quite get togethers with like one person.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ambivert.
Yeah I think I use that kind ofinterchangeably with social introvert.
Yeah, so all these things happen and,and it sounds like, how long did it take

(09:01):
before you started looking for some help?
I don't think it was too long.
I think it was months.
Yeah.
Probably less than a year.
So you started going to providers,trying to get some help,
recognizing, I don't feel like theway I think I'm supposed to feel.
I'm feeling a lot worse than Ithink I'm supposed to feel, and I
don't know what to do with this.
And so you went to providers , whoreally just addressed it as depression

(09:22):
which is, you know, we do have a lot ofcomorbidity, co occurring depression with
autism but the providers are oftentimesvery, very ill equipped to recognize
autism or even to consider it as a
possibility.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, and I, I am a therapist, but Ialso like, like Mike said, I mean I didn't
really, I had the same training that mostclinicians get about autism, which is

(09:43):
to say nothing that it's just Exactly,yeah, I get, I didn't thing that little
white boys have, and it's a certain wayand that's like the only possibility.
Yeah.
So it did not cross my mind.
I was also like, honey,I think you're depressed.
You should see a therapist.
And Mike, to his credit, waslike, okay, let's do that.
Yeah, gave it a shot.
Unfortunately and even the ones Isaw, some of them I think might've

(10:04):
been especially bad just on theirown, not even considering autism.
Like the first one I saw Hecame late to all of them.
And then the, yeah, at that one,he was asking me the same questions
that he, like the exact samequestions he had already asked.
And that was kind of confusing.
looking at his schedule, his schedule.
computer laptop was facing me.

(10:25):
I could see his schedule with allhis other patients names on it.
But yeah, I pushed through and I hadsome other ones like I saw another guy
that , seemed really pleasant and helpful,but I think his style of therapy was to
ask a question, then just let me talk.
And that did not work for me at all.
Like, if someone asked me a question,like, a lot of times I'm considering it

(10:48):
like, this is an exchange of information.
I'm going to keep it brief and to thepoint, and you will have that information.
And so if someone, like, thatstyle asks me a question, I
answer in a sentence or two.
Thank you.
And then we just sit in silencefor half an hour every session.
You know, and I want the therapists whoare listening, because I do know that we

(11:10):
have, that I have some therapists thatfollow the podcast or watch it on YouTube.
I want you to take note of thisbecause, , therapy, we're, we're
very trained to ask those questions.
prompts, those prompting questions.
And then the idea is , we guideour clients to then self reflect
and let them kind of processand let their minds wander.

(11:30):
But if you have a client, who's respondingthe way that Mike is describing,
where you ask me a question, I'mgoing to give you an answer period.
There's a clue there that maybe thisis an autistic client because talk
therapy in the way the traditional typeof talk therapy is just not useful.
And that's why I transitioned over tocoaching solution focused coaching, which
is more directive and more there's a lotmore guidance given to clients versus

(11:56):
just kind of being present with them asthey kind of figure things out themselves,
that type of therapy is not beneficial.
Okay.
So you, went down this journey , andI don't want to spend too much time
talking about how you got there, butI think it's relevant and I think
it's important because so many peopleare in various process, parts of this
process of figuring it out themselves.

(12:17):
So you mentioned Laura how did you,and a child that was born, obviously
this child that was born, it was atthe, this, the, your first child,
how many children do you have?
We have two,
okay.
All right.
So this child started goingthrough the process of evaluation.
Talk to me a little bit about how youstarted recognizing some of these traits
, and realizing , maybe Mike is autistic.

(12:39):
So with our son, There are some thingsthat stood out, and I wasn't sure what
they were, but, you know, it's like,all the kids kind of parallel play,
and then , a lot of them grow out ofit, and they, like, he was never really
interested in growing out of it, like,he liked plays, but he liked to go
play with other kids toys very nicely.
Zero interest in the other kids.

(12:59):
And that didn't seem, like, unusualfor a long time until, you know,
we had our second kid and, like,she grew out of that sooner, right?
She would be playing with the other kids.
So there's, like, stuff likethat and, like, preschool.
Kind of the same dynamic, like,Just not really interested in other
kids, just wanted to kind of hangout and do his own thing, you know?
And then, like, he really had alot of school anxiety, even in
preschool, to the point where he was,like, barricading the door before

(13:23):
we would, like, leave the house.
So we kind of sensedsomething was going on.
We didn't know what itwas at that point in time.
And so I think, you know, like, thepediatrician, and we did, like, PT
for some sensory stuff, because shewas like, well, it kind of looks
like anxiety, but, like, with athree year old, you're not gonna do.
So anxiety therapy, right?
So, like, maybe try this.

(13:43):
So, I mean, I think for a while we justhad this sort of ambiguity that was like,
people in the household were struggling.
And then talking to Laura at some pointshe had shared that she had just gone
through her own journey and was like,hey, you know, I got a husband and a kid.
They're autistic.
And it, like, blew my mind because Iwas like, whoa, like, you know, That's
a thing that autistic looks like.
You know, like, I've met your husband.

(14:03):
I've met your family.
Like, so that was, like,kind of real to me.
And the idea of, like, oh, aclinician can be married to, like, an
autistic person and not realize it.
So, like, I think that just really openedthis big door of things to, like, consider
that I hadn't previously been looking at.
That in and of itself is just, Astrong statement that you just made.

(14:24):
A clinician can be married to someonewho's autistic and not know it.
And that just speaks to the volumesof clinicians who aren't going to
recognize autism, because if those ofus who are trained, who are supposed
to recognize it, don't recognize itin our partner, and then a lot of
people don't recognize it themselves.
The training is just not there for usto know what this, how this presents

(14:45):
and looks in adulthood, especially.
We, we're getting better and betterat recognizing it in in children,
but those children grow up.
And, and they become adults andthey become adults who have learned
coping mechanisms or adapted ortheir brains have developed beyond,
you know, developed different typesof executive function capacities.

(15:05):
So we just haven't reallyfocused on what it looks like
in adults until more recently.
So, so when you started doingyour research, both of you or
how did you bring it up to Mike?
And how did you go about that process?
Yeah, that's a fun question.
I talk about that with clientsa lot because, you know, when
one partner suspects, it's like,is this like rude to bring up?

(15:27):
Like, I don't know.
I waited for a fruitful moment,which is kind of how I do things.
I sort of was chewing on it, andthen there was one night that Mike
was really struggling with it.
you know, some kind ofburnout, sensory overload.
And he had voiced somethinglike, you know, I just don't
know why this keeps happening or,you know, something like that.
Like, I don't know why I'm like this.
And I like sat down and I'mlike, so I have a theory.

(15:51):
So that was kind of itis that I sort of waited.
And I think at that point, our sonhad maybe already been diagnosed,
or at least we were in the process.
And so it wasn't like asshocking and out of the blue.
And so Mike like took it serious, kindof chewed on it, and I think he had
an appointment with a therapist orpsychiatrist coming up in the next week.
And I'll let you describethat because they were

(16:14):
like, what was it like to hear this?
you know, what was that like for you?
Yeah yeah, when she brought it up, I was,you know, kind of considerate, but yeah,
I didn't really know too much about it.
And it's like, I don't have this,like, strange condition that, you
know, I've , don't know much about.
I've only seen in kids and that kindof thing, so I was like confused,

(16:35):
but no, I said, yeah, definitely.
I'll bring it up.
And yeah, I think it was mypsychiatrist at an appointment When
I brought it up, he said, Oh, I cantell that you can make eye contact.
So you can't be autistic.
And that was like, basically likejust wrote it off because of that.
Well, also he had said you have empathy.

(16:56):
That was, I had another appointmentand brought it up again and same thing.
It was like, but this time itwas, when we've talked, I can
tell that you show empathy.
So definitely you can'tbe autistic because.
From what he knew, autistic peoplecan't make good eye contact and don't
have empathy because it was based onvery old medical writing or something.

(17:21):
So that sent me back.
As it was just like, well, Imean, that's the doctor he would
know, like, I guess that's not it.
So kept going for a little while longer.
Until it was about three years ago, our,Relationship was in a bit of trouble.
We, looked into marriage counseling.
Not a neurodiverse person, just a person.
Yeah, just regular.

(17:41):
And at one point during a session, thecounselor said something like, if you
don't change, your wife is going to leaveyou, like just straight up like that.
Like real blunt.
And then I said, okay, I'm going totake, you know, autism seriously.
And yeah, it was about threeyears ago over a weekend, I

(18:02):
think around new year's maybe.
I just like watchedevery video on YouTube.
Every article I could find, like, mostlyautistic people sharing their describing
what it's like, so much of it connected.
It was, like, this huge epiphany, , itall made sense, , So much of my past
and so many times that was confusedabout something socially or accidentally

(18:26):
offended people, like stuff came togetherand so I was like, yeah, , this is it.
I did actually go foran official assessment.
. We knew what day the resultswere going to come in.
So Amy had prepared a celebration for me.
Just with like our family madea cake and we're going to have
a cake and take pictures and justhave a little celebration at home.
Did the same thing forour kid, by the way.

(18:47):
And when the results came inand we opened them, it was for
schizoid personality disorder.
And so then I was like, Oh, what is that?
go and look it up and like, someof this stuff kind of made sense.
So I was like, Oh, I guess maybe it'sthis, this doctor is saying that autism.
So I kind of, put adamper on our celebration.

(19:09):
But then, yeah, just looking atit more and talking, just like, we
knew that was not a good diagnosis.
I made a firm case where that was, whythat was a really stupid diagnosis.
So we still went forward withour neurodiversity celebration.
But yeah, it really took thewind out of Mike's sails.
You know, , I was just talking toanother colleague last week about that

(19:33):
diagnosis, the schizoid personality, and.
I'm just going to go ahead andsay , that most people who are
diagnosed with schizoid personalityare probably autistic, but that
the training is not out there, theeducation is not out there about what
autistic and adults, how they present.
And what happened to you is exactly why.

(19:53):
, I've said , many times in my videos andon my podcast, when people talk, ask
about diagnosis, , I don't necessarilyrecommend that you go for an evaluation.
The psychologists who do know what they'redoing, you can get a good evaluation
from them, but they can only practice it.
where they're licensed, in thestate that they're licensed.
This story that you're telling isso representative of how it goes

(20:15):
for so many people and It's so hard.
Like you got, you had several providerstell you, no, this is not autism.
People who are credentialedand licensed and are supposed
to know what they're doing.
And for an autistic brain, that's hard.
Cause that's like no, this person'sgot training and credentials.
And they're saying,no, this is not autism.

(20:37):
So I want to just commend youboth for going with what you
are also learning elsewhere.
And, and that's why I'm outthere that doing these podcasts,
Mona Kay's got her podcast.
There are others out there thatwe're trying to help educate to
help people learn that you can.

(20:58):
this yourself, even ifproviders are telling, you
know, that's not what this is.
You make sure you payattention to the sources.
You know, lots of people are out thereon the internet talking about it.
Make sure you're, you'relistening to people who do know
what they're talking about.
But it's really devastating.
When people go and try to getclarity, And, and they're told,
nope, that's not what this is.

(21:18):
And it's just, it's so frustrating.
So let's, let's move on then because youguys tried to get the formal diagnosis.
You said, okay, you know what,we're going to reject that.
And then you decided to go aheadwith your own understanding of this.
And how did that talk to, talk me throughwhat changed then or , what happened?
How did that change your marriage?

(21:39):
In what ways, whatinsights did it give you?
Well, it works a lot better , if theissue is autism to actually be working
with autism than depression, right?
, just having the clear understandingof like a real watershed moment.
You know, like Mike can probably talkmore about some of the things that he
changed that he'd been trying to do.
Right.
Like depression they say that youshould, Spend time with family and

(22:03):
friends, you're autistic and you'reburned out, spending time with people
actually is worse, because what youneed is the less sensory input you can
get, the better to kind of relieve it.
We definitely changed our routine a bit.
Now in the afternoon, after school forthe kids, after work, we just all kind

(22:24):
of have some downtime, we all do ourown thing, quiet, you know, whatever
we want to do for an hour or two.
That's helped a lot.
So you've adjusted even yourfamily routine based on what
, your updated understanding.
And I think that's a real valid one youmade about depression, because the idea
of , when you're depressed is that.
You don't have that motivation, thatinitiation to spend time with others.

(22:48):
But when you do, you get the dopamineand serotonin released in your brain
that helps, helps lift you, which isgood advice for someone who's depressed.
But like you said, , if you're autisticand it's not about that, it's more
about burnout and needing that.
Recharge the battery time, then it'sliterally making the problem worse.
So you saw that.
Yeah, we had some communicationadjustments, , so things work well for us.

(23:14):
You know, that we do now if Mike has thesocial battery after work, he will make
the effort to connect with me, and that'sgreat, because I really like connecting.
But, if he doesn't, , I'm not offended.
It's fine.
He can go, he has a recliner inthe corner he likes to sit in,
listen to music, and it's fine.

(23:34):
, it makes the big differencewhen there isn't that.
Feeling of like rejection or that feelingof like, why don't you want to talk to me?
I haven't seen you all day.
You know that he will sayhi, , but if he's like feeling
burnout, now we know what it is.
So we have the language for it.
And he's gotten a lot more aware ofburnout because it used to be, we
thought it was depression, but , daysbefore he would even know it was

(23:55):
there, I would recognize it wassetting in and I'd be like, do you
think you're depressed right now?
And he'd be like, Yeah, I think I'm fine.
And then two days later, he'dbe like, I think you're pressed.
I'd be like, yes, but now, I mean,he knows, and he has a, like a scale.
Like at some point I've got a littlebattery, , so it's like a special battery,
it's like, it's a little bit of a gaggift, but also it was pretty helpful.

(24:17):
So I could put it on when he got home andhe'd like put the battery where it was at.
And so then, you know, if it was likein the yellow, be like, okay, Hey, like.
See you later.
Talk to you at dinner.
If I'm agreeing, he'dcome and sit with me.
We'd have a little together.
I love that.
Actually.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Where did you get it?
Etsy.
Etsy.
Okay.
Everybody, it's out there.
I love that idea because , I know likewith my own daughter, when she gets up

(24:41):
in the morning, she's in college now,but when she's home when she first
gets up and I say morning looselybecause sometimes it's one in the
afternoon, but anyway, when she getsout of bed, she's usually nonverbal.
Now, this is a, you know, a 21 year old.
college student who's got a,you know, mostly A's and B's.
So she's, it's not about her.
Her being verbal is not aboutintelligence, but it's about her

(25:01):
brain waking up and her brainbeing ready to process language.
And so when she comes downstairs and, she's there sometimes I'll speak to
her and she just kind of ignores me.
, and I want to go back to what yousaid, Amy, about the meaning that
we assign to what we're perceiving.
And that's where the hurt is.
comes from.
It's not the behavior itself.
It's the meaning we assigned toit, how we're interpreting it.

(25:23):
And so for you previously, Amy,you had interpreted some of the
disengagement from Mike as rejectionas shut out versus shut down, , which
an autistic person is shutting down.
They're not intentionallyshutting you out.
It's just more of a, I, you know, my bodyis powering down and so understanding that
and knowing that Makes a huge differencebecause then we realize it's not personal.

(25:47):
It's not about me and like with my owndaughter If if she's not interacting
with me, there were there's a timein her life when I would think
yeah, she's being rude She's beingdisrespectful, you know, and I get mad
as a parent and be like, don't you?
But now I understand I'm able to say areyou you are you still nonverbal and she'll
she's learned to just be Either giveme a thumbs up or, or just kind of nod.

(26:09):
I'm like, , I actually got her a mugthat says words are out of service
until the coffee or something likethat, it's just not in service yet.
And so I just, you know, I leave heralone because she's not able to receive
what I have to say or communicate back.
And it's nothing about,has nothing to do with me.
Yeah.
Mike is also not.

(26:30):
In the morning for a fun fact, butour schedules are different now.
He works first shift Sohe like up and kind of has
breakfast and leaves the house.
I see him for like a minute before he goes
Yeah,
I've been up for at leastan hour before Amy gets up.
So I have that time where you cankind of Yeah, ease into the day.
And before that, it was just likegrunts until, you know, coffee probably.

(26:52):
But now we like, we understand thesedifferences too, which is really helpful.
And so we can like laugh at them.
So like, if there is a morning thatI'm up with my first thing, And I'm
sitting here chatting away, because nowmy eyes are open, I'm ready to chat.
I catch myself as he's like tryinggamely to kind of be like, okay.
And then I'm like, oh, don't you love whenI talk at you this much in the morning?

(27:15):
And just like have alittle laugh about it.
I love that humor.
So let's talk about that fora second because we're, we use
humor a lot in our family too.
And we're able to like laugh at ourselves,even roast each other a little bit.
Like now, once I realized Iwas ADHD, . And my son is too.
I'm constantly sending him memes that I'mlike, Oh my God, this is so relatable.
And, you know, we're justkind of laughing at ourselves.

(27:37):
And my daughter you know, there'sthis, this misnomer that autistics
don't have a sense of humor.
Well, she definitely does.
But it's all about safety and knowingthat , you're loving, you're not mocking
someone, you're not making fun of themand you're not criticizing and ridiculing
them when you laugh, especially whenwe remember to laugh at ourselves too.

(28:00):
/ Okay, we're gonna stop there for part one of my chat with Amy and Mike, which has
already been incredible as you can see.
So be sure and tune in in two weeks forpart two of their conversation with me.
That's a wrap for today's episode.
Be sure to subscribeor follow the podcast.
So you won't miss any ofthese amazing interviews.
And as always, if you'rebenefiting and enjoying this

(28:20):
podcast, please give us a review.
It really helps other people know thatthis podcast is really beneficial
and worth listening to thanks forwatching on YouTube or tuning into
your favorite podcast platform.
Don't forget to visit meonline@ jodicarlton.com.
more resources.
I have assessment quizzes, educationalarticles, courses, and more.
If you have any questions, just reachout to my team@gethelpatjodicarlton.com

(28:44):
until next time.

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