Hour 2: Anzio Annie

Getting bombed off the beach in Anzio. Operation shingle. Sending patrols out into Nazi controlled Italy. Germans inside the lines. How history remembers various generals. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is a Jesse Kelly Show. It is the Jesse
Kelly Show. Another hour of the Jesse Kelly Show on
a spectacular, a wonderful Thursday, Tuesday. Sorry, I got myself
super excited. I'm super exciting. So we have to try
to finish up Anzio tonight. Yes, I will get to

(00:32):
some politics next hour. Trump's talking about Jeff Bezos and
the Washington Post being controlled by the crazy people. There's
a wonderful conversation to have about that. There's a hilarious
article out about feminists being dumped for being feminists. Good
ceasefire agreement in the Black Sea all that's so much
more coming up in the final hour of the world

(00:54):
famous Jesse Kelly Show. But we're not in the final hour,
are we. We are in the second hour, and time
for our number two. Part two. I should say of
the Battle of Anzio in World War Two. I've told
you before. I've always found this to be fascinating and
most people don't know much about, really any part of
the Italian campaign. Part one was last night. It was

(01:18):
mostly set up. If you happen to miss it, here's
the thirty second version of it. The Allies wanted to
find a way to distract Germany, also to potentially find
a way into Europe from the southern end. They decided
to try for Italy, but the Italians surrendered. The Germans
took over Italy, and now the Germans are lying in

(01:40):
wait for the Allies dug in ready to kill a
bunch of them. We under a man named General Lucas.
We land at Anzio behind the German lines, of course,
and the Germans are led by a general by the
name of Kesserling, a very very capable general. To put
it mildly, we land at Anzio. The coast is clear.

(02:03):
General Lucas has an opportunity to then push towards Rome
quickly if he moves with speed and purpose. Instead, he's
a nervous man. He believes they're all lying in wait,
and he waits. As he waits, Kesserling gets his Germans
into place. And this comes back to something we talk
about a lot. One of the incredibly boring aspects that

(02:27):
I love of wars and battles are logistics. Logistics moving men,
moving materials to and fro. In fact, let's talk about
that really briefly, as it pertains to where we're at
in the world at this point in time. This is
nineteen forty four, early nineteen forty four. The D Day

(02:50):
invasion is six months away. So here's here are the
naval strains on the world. The United States of America
has been fighting a war against the Jetjapanese in the
Pacific for a long time. The Brits are also trying
to fight against the Japanese in that area, Burma, places
like that. We also have to deal with the Soviet Union.

(03:10):
They need help, they need supplied. We can't just ship
supply ships into the Soviet Union. The German U boats
will sink them. So we have to dedicate. Everyone has
to dedicate naval assets there. They're shipping in the Africa.
There's shipping everywhere. And again everything is finite. Troops are finite,
navies are finite. We are not getting the best of

(03:32):
the best for the side campaign, I hate to call it,
that is known as Operation Shingle, the side campaign of
Anzio of Italy. We don't get the best of anything. Now,
that's our logistical problem. On the German side, they could
move troops quickly the roads, they knew the area they

(03:55):
would dug in. They quickly get their troops surround us
in Anzio. By this point, they've commandeered the trains. They're
using it all now. And one of the all time
bad timing things, you know, how Lucas gets there to
Anzio and he parks it for a little while while
we dig in, So we create this kind of beachhead,

(04:18):
this big bubble one. We're dug in and things are
going well. Lucas waits until he thinks, Okay, I guess
I guess we should check things out and maybe we
should move forward out of here. He starts to move
out or probe whether or not he should move out,
right about the precise time Germans surround us and dig

(04:43):
in with cracked troops. We start to probe out, we
start to send patrols out and they don't come back.
And I'm going to talk to you about this, just
really briefly. Patrol because you've you've heard that word a lot,
I'm sure if you've ever watched a movie or read

(05:05):
a war book, or you've heard the term patrol. But
what does it mean. Well, this is actually a great
example of what it means. It's part of living the
life of an infantryman. You will have an area you're
dug in, we'll just call it a base, but it
doesn't always have to be that, but a place where
you have a headquarters, in a hospital, a place that
you have secured, a secured perimeter of some kind, call

(05:28):
it that. But you don't win a war by staying
in base wherever you are. Even if you're on the defense,
you have to go out and find out where's the enemy,
where's he moving around. If you're on the offense, you
have to go find out. Hey, there's a little town
over here. I wonder if there are some German troops

(05:49):
in that town. We should go check it out. Now,
let's stop and take it yet another little sidetrack. Why
don't you know if there are troops in that town
or not at this point in time. Because both sides
have air power, all the movement is at night. During
the day, the planes fly over, it's like everything is

(06:13):
dead on the ground. Whatever you want to do German
side American side, you have to do it in the dark.
So if you're the Americans and you're dug in, if
you want to know if there are German troops, well
you have to send a patrol out and find out
if there are German troops. You see. Now we send

(06:36):
patrols out and like I said, they start dying. How
many at one point in time. You know about rangers.
Everyone knows, you've heard the word Army Rangers. Will Rangers
are really getting their start here. And I know that
rogers rangers pre revolutionary. Where I understand the Rangers trace

(06:57):
their lineage clear back to them. But this is when
the Army Rangers are becoming the Army Rangers. The studs
they have now, and they were studs at this point
in time. They took the best of the best, put
them through brutal training, and these guys came out the
other end studs. At one point we sent out a

(07:19):
patrol the Rangers who didn't get massacred. Seven hundred and
sixty seven of them were taken prisoner. That's the level
of German competition we have around Anzio. That's who's dug
in here. We are now trapped. We keep sending out
these patrols and our patrols continue to run into a

(07:43):
German perimeter that is dug in. We are trapped. We
are held inside of this pocket. But the Germans weren't
going to let us just sit there now, we're going
to talk about artillery briefly artillery in World War One,
because it's gonna matter. Have you ever seen any of
the huge artillery guns from World War One? Fascinating, Highly

(08:07):
recommend you look them up. They even had names artillery guns,
but they were much bigger than most of the artillery
guns that we were using in World War Two. Why, though,
why would you have bigger guns that fire further and
bigger shells in World War One than you do in
World War Two. Well, yes, you want your artillery guns

(08:28):
to be big and to fire big shells and things
like that, but they also need to be able to move.
Why do they need to be able to move? Because
unlike in World War One, the opposing army's going to move.
In World War One, you could fire those big shells
because they're dug into a fort or they're dug into
a trench in the ground. In World War Two, when

(08:48):
the armies are always moving, they're mobile, you can't have
a huge artillery piece that requires a freaking train to
get it into place, because by the time you get
it into place, the end simply have moved and you're
out of luck, unless, of course, you're stuck in a
little pocket on the coast of Anzio, with nowhere to go,

(09:10):
the Germans bring up something known as Anzio Annie. What
was Anzio Annie? It was actually not one, It was
two artillery pieces. Go look up Anzio Annie. That is
the kind of firepower that was raining down on our
troops in this pocket. And Hitler himself, he said, I

(09:34):
don't want the Allies to remain where they are. I
want to I think he called it a boil. I
think he said he wants to lance the boil. If
I remember right of the Anzio campaign. Hitler knows he
has us surrounded. He knows he has us surrounded by
crack German troops. He knows our general is, obviously, at

(09:56):
this point in time, a cautious type. If we're being nice,
we'll call General Lucas cautious. If you were being harsh,
you'd call him worthless. And the truth is probably somewhere
in between. You never know what to believe either way.
The Germans start to hurt us, they start to rain
down artillery, they start to infil trade, and that brings

(10:21):
us to the amazing story of Felix Sparks. Before we
get to Felix Sparks and his story. You're gonna want
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(10:43):
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(11:26):
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(11:46):
is the Jesse Kelly Show on a Tuesday. You can
email the show love hey, death threats, whatever you'd like
Jesse at Jesse kellyshow dot com. Continuing on with our
history The Battle of Anzio WW two. This is of
course part two. Part one was last night. If you
miss that, iHeart Spotify iTunes. It's all free. Just go

(12:11):
download the podcast to the show and catch up. Now
back to where we were. We are dug in and Anzio.
The Germans have surrounded us. We start probing, start sending
patrols out to see exactly what the resistance is. And
we are finding out the hard, bloody way that resistance
is heavy and that these are not chumps. These are

(12:34):
highly trained German troops and they're giving as good as
they're getting. And that brings us to the story of
Felix Sparks. There's a chance you've heard the name Felix
Sparks because he was actually involved in one of the

(12:55):
most famous parts of the war. Felix Sparks after this,
long after this, ended up being part of a unit
that liberated one of the concentration camps. That's what he's
most famous for. But that was not. If you talk

(13:15):
to Felix Sparks later on in his life, that was
not the worst moment of his life. That was a
dark moment. Obviously, you walk into a camp with people
starving to death, that was a dark moment. The worst
moment of his life came here in Anzio. Now, what
in the world could possibly have happened to Felix Sparks

(13:37):
that was worse than finding a freaking concentration camp. Well,
this brings us to a conversation we've had before on
the show about about how, look, the life is unfair. Okay,
war is obviously extremely unfair, and even within militaries there

(14:00):
is oftentimes an extremely disproportionate number of amount of the
burden held by a few people in the military. Here's
a good example, our most recent one, Iraq Afghanistan. Regular
troops put in good, honorable service in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That's true. These special operations guys, Seals and Green Berets

(14:25):
and those types, they really bore the burden of that war.
Ten twelve deployments. We're talking Navy Seal heroes killing themselves
when they get back. They're so mentally shattered from carrying
the burden of that war World War two. Since we're
on the subject of World War Two, You know what

(14:46):
I think about a lot when I think about things
like the Battle of Midway, I think about our torpedo pilots.
You know, we really generally had a few different kinds
of pilots. There were fighter pilots, and there were dive
bomber pilots, and there were torpedo planes. And they would
carry one torpedo underneath them and they would have to

(15:09):
carry it very low level with the water and fly
directly at a ship. If that sounds like suicide, good
because it pretty much was. On top of all that,
our torpedoes for the longest time in World War two
didn't work. It was a national scandal at the time.
Oh yeah, it was terrible, Chris. We had faulty torpedoes.

(15:30):
They would hit ships and not even blow up. We
would be listening and we'd hear it cliank off the ship.
It wouldn't blow up, or they would just dive down
to the bottom of the ocean because the fins were wrong.
They'd stick. So we had these torpedo guys at the
Battle of Midway. I forget what the exact number is,
so I'm going to mess up the exact number, but

(15:50):
I think it was forty forty five of them went out.
None of them came home. Now you think about the
Battle of Midway, it's thought as this thought of as
this tremendous success, and of course it was. We stopped
the Japanese advance and we ambushed them, and from then
on they were always on the retreat. And of course
it was a success for America, for the military, for

(16:10):
the Navy, for the Marines, for the it was a huge,
huge success. But that one unit, the torpedo guys, none
of them came home. They were all gone pretty much all.
I forget what the exact numbers are, but it was
basically all of them gone. In wars, infantry troops, frontline

(16:39):
infantry troops will bear a tremendous burden that many other troops,
not that there's anything wrong with their service, that many
other troops simply will never know and will never feel.
We've brought up D Day so many times that this unit. Yeah,
the total numbers are are bad, but this entire unit

(17:02):
was gone. Felix Sparks, he was a company commander at
the time. Just think two hundred men. Whenever I say company,
think two hundred men. That number is never going to
be exact, but that's rough. Okay, two hundred men. He's
a company commander. He is a company commander of a
guard unit. It's more of a think about it this way,

(17:27):
hometown boys. His unit, he was a Colorado guy, Felix Sparks.
His unit was basically all Colorado and Oklahoma guys. Now,
these are people he would have already trained with. These
are people. If he didn't know them personally, he would
have known people who knew them, because he would have

(17:48):
known these communities. He would have known them in an
intimate way. The same way in your area, if you
wherever you happen to live, if you go overseas anywhere
in peace time. Look, it just happened to me. I
told you when we were in Italy. I was at
the elevator and we had to go to some stupid
dinner thing I didn't want to go to. And it

(18:08):
was all these foreigners all around me. And there was
this couple, this old black couple there and they were
speaking English and I knew they were Americans. We hugged.
It was yes, my people, right, you have an infinity. Well,
his people were from his area. That was the unit
he commanded, and we'll talk about what happened that day.
Hang on, you're listening to the ourcle love this one.

(18:32):
It's a scream Baby, the Jesse Kelly Show. It is
the Jesse Kelly Show on a Wonderful Tuesday. Back to
our story talking about the Battle of Anzio. This is
part two of all of it. So Felix Sparks, he
commands an infantry unit. He commands an infantry unit at
Anzio at a time where it's tough duty to command

(18:55):
an infantry company at Anzio because the Germans have decided
they are going to push the Americans back into the sea,
and they begin to pound American lines, in filtrate, invade,
and we don't like to ever think in these terms,
especially when it comes to World War Two. They're winning,

(19:19):
they're pushing Americans back. Our lines are collapsing. Felix Sparks Company,
they were on the far flank. Now that means they're
on the end. And whenever you were on the end
of a line, you know you have all these troops
set up. When you were on the end, you have

(19:40):
by far the most important job, because if you collapse,
if the end of the line collapses, it can actually
mean everybody dies because it allows the enemy to get
to the side of everyone behind and beside everyone and
essentially envelop them and wipe them out. It's part of
how Julius Caesar beat Pompy Magnus in almost this exact

(20:04):
same way. He was outnumbered. Pompey had everything, Pompy had
better supplies. Julius Caesar attacked one of his flanks, wiped
it out, and rolled up his entire army. Just ancient days,
modern days, if you're on the end, you must hold fast.
Sparks is on the end. He's out there with his

(20:25):
entire company, dug in and income some cracked German troops.
At first, Sparks describes it as he couldn't figure out
who was coming at him because there were so many.
There were so many, and they were trotting just right
at him. He actually called back to headquarters and said, hey,
do we have any of our guys wearing overcoats and stuff,

(20:48):
and headquarters once they figured things out, said no, those
are Germans. You might want to start shooting. Sparks's unit
one hundred and fifty seventh, they started shooting, and the
Germans were shooting back, and it was some of the
most terrible fighting, and it's kind of one of those things.

(21:11):
Guys loved these stories because of the heroism. At the
same time everyone hates men and women. We hate these
stories because of how horrible and tragic it was. They
were way out numbered and they had no chance. The
Germans started to mow through this company. Now, this company
was given as good as they were getting. At one

(21:32):
point in time, a guy we still don't know his name.
We only know about him and what he did because
Sparks saw him do it. The guy hopped up on
top of a tank. There was a fifty cow there,
Germans all around him coming at him. He strapped himself
to the fifty cow and just started putting in work,

(21:52):
putting down Germans like you can't believe, till finally a
German snuck up on him killed him too. Felix Sparks's
company is dying. There are Germans inside the lines, there
are Germans around the lines, and soon Sparks described what
it was like. This had to be the most amazing feeling,

(22:13):
the most horrific feeling in the world. Sparks knew the
stakes if his line collapsed. His line collapsed, and Germans
were pouring beside him, going right by him, practically ignoring
him as they poured back into the rest of the troops.
What would that have been like? You're watching the enemy.
He can turn and kill you at any moment. Instead,

(22:35):
he's infiltrating back into American lines. Sparks, what's left of
his men, which aren't many at this point in time,
has to be some sort of an organized retreat. He
ends up in a cave. He's in a cave, and
the Germans eventually find out where he is, where everyone

(23:00):
one is in the cave. So the Germans start sending troops,
some of their best troops, the shock troops, after him.
When's the last time you were in a cave? I?
Personally I love them because they're creepy, aren't They can't
see you, don't know what's around the corner. That ever

(23:20):
look like they do in the movies where it's this
perfect line, there's always this crevice here and there. They're
just creepy. Now they're creepy on your own when you're
waiting for a bat to fly into your ear. What's
a cave like as you try to throw as many
grenades as possible and kill as many Germans before they

(23:41):
can come into the cave and finish you off. Felix
Sparks is stuck in this cave for days, killing Germans
as they try to get in the entryway. It's so
bad he has to keep calling American artillery in on
top of his position so they can kill as many
Germans as possible at the entryway of the cave by

(24:05):
the time this thing is over. Remember what I was
talking about about, how some units they bear the entire
run of things. Felix Sparks and one other man, they
are the ones who finally made it back to the
command tent when it was over. One other guy, the

(24:28):
rest of them gone. Mingo looked up Felix Sparks. I
believe he lived to be in his eighties. I think
they wrote a book about him called The Liberator, which
obviously focused mainly on the liberation of the concentration camp
things like that. That was stuff he went on to
do later on. But Felix Sparks, his men they all

(24:52):
died here. Now he didn't obviously, but his men they
all died. That is how desperate the fighting is as
the journe woman's push and push and push. At one
point in time, they've broken through enough American lines, they've
killed enough Americans at Anzio that we are finally at

(25:14):
our last line of defense. You know what defense in
depth is, right, We've talked about it before. I have
a very old way of thinking, ancient warfare way of
thinking would be you put all your troops on the line,
and they'll put all their troops on the line, and
then and then you slam into each other and you
fight until you win. And then you know offense defense

(25:35):
that's what you do. And then both sides eventually figured out,
wait a minute, if I'm on offense, I should hold
a unit in reserve in case something goes wrong. Then
I can plug them in here and defensively, we figured
this out too. We really mastered this during World War One.
We don't need a trench. A trench can be taken out.
They can invade and thin get that. We need lines

(25:58):
of trenches, so you to take this trench line and
then the next trench line, and then the next trench line. Well,
same concept here. This was very much World War One
style fighting. We eventually get back to our final trench line.
The next thing behind it is the freaking sea. And
just to let you know how desperate this was, there

(26:19):
is and I believe it's still there to this day.
I've never been. I would like to go. There is
an entire command structure for our generals underground, because anything
above ground was dying. At this point in time, artillery
machine guns Germans coming in the Battle of Anzio was terrible.

(26:41):
Beyond belief. We as all this is going on in
desperation to save the troops of Anzio, because at this
point in time people were saying this is going to
be the next Gunkirk, that's how bad it was going
to be. They launched yet another offensive set south of
Anzio at that Gustav Linemember I told you it was

(27:03):
about halfway up the Italian boot the German defensive line.
They were so desperate to save the troops at Anzio
that they launched another offensive at the gustav line that
also failed because they weren't they couldn't get up the
hills to kill them, so they were dying going up
the hills in another part of Italy just to try

(27:24):
and save the American troops at Anzio who were dying.
It's wold. You've never heard about this story, right, Normandy Ewojim.
You know those things that get all the love. This
was as terrible fighting as it was. All Right, I'm
gonna wrap up this story and we'll move on back
to politics in a moment. Before I do that. You

(27:47):
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(28:57):
Slash Jessie, we'll be back the Jesse Kelly Show. It
is the Jesse Kelly Show on a Tuesday. Don't worry,
we still have an hour left. I'll get back to
politics in a little bit. We'll talk about how the
communists end up controlling the street. Animals can control the
boss if the boss isn't careful, and feminists and all

(29:19):
kinds of other things. And this brings us to this
point in time. So the German offensive to push us
into the sea does stall out, It does fail, both
sides digging in still now, General Lucas gets sacked. They
dump him, and look, I have all kinds of emails
about well how we start out yesterday, Jesse. Isn't this

(29:43):
why Patten said a good plan executed now is better
than a perfect plan executed next week. Yes, it's one
of Patton's great lines. Look at generals are a hard
thing to analyze. You're gonna have your favorites and ones
you hate. I'm gonna have my favorites and ones I hate.

(30:03):
It is what it is. I generally try to trust
the men who served under them, because that usually doesn't lie.
That's my barometer for it. But I'll say this about
General Lucas, really about any general you love or hate.
Remember that generals have traveling press tours with them. They

(30:26):
have staffs of propagandists with them for and against them.
Lots of the generals we look back on, not just
in World War Two, but prior to that historically, Lots
of the generals we have that we think so highly of.
He was the most brilliant, He was the best. He was.

(30:48):
He had a team of writers with him writing down
how wonderful he was at all times, and oftentimes those
are the documents that survive the ages. And this is
in no way dogging on somebody like Alexander the Great,
for instance, Alexander the Great, one of the greats of

(31:08):
all time. Of course, not denying that Alexander the Great
was also aware that propaganda mattered, how he was thought
of mattered. He was very much a human being who
saw his historical significance he wanted to be historically great.
Alexander the Great took a lot of steps to ensure

(31:32):
there were people around him writing about him that made
him look pretty good, sound pretty good. MacArthur was infamous
for this every I don't mean to even call out
those two guys. Generals in command can be they can
get the rewards of a great press team, and they

(31:54):
can also catch the ire of history if there's a
propaganda tool were against them, if there are vested interests
against them. I don't know whether General Lucas was a
great general, bad general, great man, bad man. I'm not
gonna lie to you. I have no idea. You want
to point to his failures here and say he got

(32:15):
a bunch of brave soldiers killed with his cautiousness, cowardice,
or whatever word you want to put on it, Okay,
I give you that. You want to say he's following
the advice he got from people. I would agree with that, maybe, Donald,
I don't know what if what if the failures at
Anzio and it was not well received back home that

(32:35):
we were taking these kind of losses for a place.
The American people didn't understand why they were supposed to
care about what if What if Lucas was the scapegoat
for Fdr. Eisenhower even and I'm not even saying he was.
What if those guys who would have had friendly people
in the media they didn't want to look bad. What
if they went to the big newspapers and said, Hey,

(32:57):
this General Lucas, what a dirtball. Huh really screwed this
whole thing up? What's gonna survive to the year twenty
twenty five. All those articles, all those books, all those
quotes about what a complete nut or more on General
Lucas was. But whatever it was, he gets sacked, He
gets replaced. His deputy slowly but surely builds up American

(33:24):
supplies all this while while we're dug in and kind
of everything stalls. Now he's hoovering up as many bombs, bullets, armor,
as much as he can get onto the beach in
his sector. He gets onto the beach, and then we
once again attacked down south at the gustav line, and
again we attempt another breakout at Anzio, and finally, after

(33:49):
months and months of fighting, we do break out. We
are successful. You can see the video to this day
of General Clark on his jeep cruising through Rome as
we reconquered Rome, and all those other things. But Anzio,
and there are good books out on this. I would

(34:11):
recommend it if the subject interests you at all. Anzio
was one of those things that never sat well with
the guys who were there. It didn't the American public
wasn't in love with it. And look, doesn't that kind
of make the point I was just making about generals,
it's a battle. Most people don't know that much about why,

(34:31):
because that wasn't what the United States of America. They
didn't want that in the headlines. They didn't want that
as chapter one of the World War two book. They
wanted that buried in the back somewhere because it was
a side mission, really a distraction mission. But it was
a distraction mission where we ended up leaving a lot
of guys high and dry. I'll tell you Felix Sparks.

(34:54):
You remember, Felix Spark's a guy who lost his entire unit.
From what I can gather from the things he wrote
and said, had a lot of bitterness and sadness the
rest of his life. Guy lost his entire company, Like
even if he didn't know all of them personally. He
would have known their towns, he would have known people
who knew them. What if you're in command of two

(35:16):
hundred men, all of them die and you find out
that they all died on a side mission for a
country that you didn't even really place a top priority on.
It's hard enough if you knew your friends died in
a worthy cause, you find out you lost all your friends,

(35:38):
all your men for that kind of think, it's going
to stay with you, isn't it. So there, that's the
Battle of Anzio. I hope you enjoyed it. I did.
Now we have to discuss well, the Washington Post. Remember
when remember Jeff Bezos, he's the guy who owns Amazon.
Remember he came out and he said, hey, the Washington

(35:59):
Post is going to focus on freedom in America. Really
said a raw rob patriotic stuff. But then that hasn't
really materialized. We'll talk about that in a moment before
we talk about that April seconds coming, that's tariff date.
What have you done to protect your retirement before that date?

(36:22):
And I don't know. Look, I'm not going to tell
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much gold as possible and they haven't backed off. Why
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(37:26):
seven gold all right, all right, an hour left, we'll
be back