August 5, 2024 • 36 mins
David ‘Chook’ Henwood served for 37 years in South Auckland before retiring in 2007. He held the rank of Detective Sergeant and received a record three silver merit awards during his career, playing a significant role in some of New Zealand’s most infamous criminal cases. He has now written the book Unmasking Monsters: How the Hunt for New Zealand’s Worst Criminals Changed Policing Forever. In today’s episode of the Daily Bespoke podcast, he discusses the book with Matt. Find the episode now by clicking the link in our Bio!
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Speaker 1 (00:29):
It is the sixth of August twenty twenty four and
this is your daily bespoke podcast. Welcome all you bespokey dokies.
It's a serious podcast today, So boys.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I want you to not embarrass me. We're talking to
We're going to interview Chuck Enwood.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He served thirty seven years in South Auckland before retiring
in two thousand and seven. He had the rank of
a detective sergeant and was rewarded a record three Silver
Merit awards during his time as an officer. Now and
as early seventies, Hendwood has six grown up children and
he lives in Cambridge.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Is a really interesting boch. It's about how this guy started.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
The criminal profiling units. So when they were trying to
solve crimes in New Zealand, they used to do them
independently and act as if every criminal, every crime was
committed by different people. And then Chuck Enwood started reading
up overseas about MS. Modus operati and on the theory
(01:29):
that most crime has committed lots of crimes are committed
by one person as opposed to you know what I mean, Like,
criminals commit a lot of crimes. So if you're a
criminal a murderer or a rapist, then you were quite
likely to do those things more than once. And so
he started the criminal Profiling Unit in New Zealand which
had never been before, which was psychologists kind of like
(01:51):
what you might see on TV, you know, like Criminal
Minds and those kind of TV shows where you had
a group of people that were trying to go from
crime to crime and link them using science and psychology.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Because we forget and I think there was only a
recent thing about mid eighties when people started taking serial
killers as a serious thing, as people whenever there was
a murder, people would just you know, the idea of
murders being linked, I think was quite a foreign idea. Yeah, yeah,
I mean it was similar to the TV show, was it,
mind Hunter that examined a similar thing over in the States, And.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, so he was ahead of his time or chocky, yeah,
chucky wise and you know, but it is the case
with crime. So there's a lot of burglaries, but there's
not that many burglars because if you're a professional burglar,
you might do one hundred and.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fifty houses, you know, and so.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
When you put one burglar away, you actually end up
solving a whole lot of a whole lot of burglaries.
And it's the same with horrific crimes like rape as
well as these people that just repeat and repeat again.
And so you know, if you can profile them and
work out what they do and why they do it,
then you can maybe you know, bust them quicker and
(02:58):
know what they're can do and help people predict themselves.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So it's a pretty serious thing.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
And what I found interesting when I read the book
as that you think that this would all be known about,
but you realize that policing is something that changes with
time and people get better at it. I mean, for me,
I thought, sure Holmes, he got it all sorted way
back in the day. I know he was a private investigator,
but you know, like you'd go to a scene, you'd
(03:22):
work it out, youselve the crime quickly too, yeah, quite quickly,
you know. But it turns out that policing was quite rudimentary.
Like even in the eighties, you just sort of some
dudes just rocked around in a car, sort of knocked
on some.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Doors, did chucky hands and hin would sorry have a
Michael Watson, you know, like if they have a sidekick,
maybe that's a question I could ask, makes you.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
He had his criminal profile and unit, which was a
group of people Watson's, Yeah, Grover Watsons that have him solved.
I mean he solved the murder of the Ghost, which
was a horrific rapist that was operating for a long time.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, so and that that was what's the guy's name,
the ghost when they found him.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
His name was Joseph Thompson.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Joseph Thompson, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
He also Malcolm Rawa, he dealt with him. And also
he was one of the first people to remember Tenor Porter.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Oh, yes, Tan of Porter.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
He wasn't he was wrongly convicted and and Chuck Enward
knowing his stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He was. He was an advocate for this guy.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So he was finding people that have done it and
find people that have been accused of doing it and
be convicted of doing it, and bloody campaigning for them.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
That must have been quite hard being in the police
and saying, actually, guys, I think you've got this wrong,
and to continue campaigning, yeah, against other policemen. Yeah, saying
you've got this one wrong. I still working there.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Imagined that would have been quite a it's kind of
a Marcher organization back in the day, wouldn't you know,
like set in their ways is the way we've been
doing it. In fact, he talks about at his book
about how it used to work, like a lot of
it was police just putting it off to other They
knew if they wrapped up cases and sent it down
(05:12):
to other police stations, they wouldn't have to deal with it.
So they'd have a because a lot of criminals work
in freezing works, they'd have a suspects thought to be
in a freezing work. So you have that case in
South Aukland and you go, oh, well, there's a freedom
works near in Vicago, so we'll send it down to
that police station and it would just go around and
so you're basically just sending them off because there was
(05:32):
no computers, so there was no cross referencing and that
kind of thing. And he talks about a police sergeant
who had just basically locked the door and put his
feet up at night, and you'd been in a lot
of trouble if you're knocked on the door.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So yeah, thing things had to change. But you know,
when you look.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Back, and like I always think about the David Bain
case and the cops that knocked on the door there,
and one of them was my friend's dad, Constable Murray's
stab and he'd been a a traffic cop not long
before that. So you had these cops that were no
fault of their own. They weren't really trained for these
full on circumstances. They were just turning up knocking on
(06:09):
the door, you see, like a multiple family murder like that.
Then you know, what do you do with that? Yeah,
and say, it's just it's just interesting. We always think
that the police is this unit that's sorted out and
knows what they're doing, a cohesive knows what it's doing
with the planned procedure experts bored and those white suits,
(06:33):
the CSI type situation, and you know, it hasn't always
been like that.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
It used to be for a long time.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Reading this book, it seems like it was a bit
of a bloody cowboy operation and just because they didn't know,
you know, they didn't went.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Also, it's interesting in this book, I should ask these
questions if Chuck Kinwood when he comes in, But just
what police training used to be like? It used to
be pretty freaking intense.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Which just couldn't email saying, is that reception? So I'm
just duck o all right?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So interesting because a lot of people called Hinward the
last name Hinwood, get called Chuck as.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
A joke because of the hen m. Do Heinward's never
gone for the Chuck Inwood?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Is he? No? He is not.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And I might start calling him.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Calling him Chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
It'll be confusing, just as Chuck Ininwoods book comes out
if we start.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Calling Die Heinwood Chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But anyway, we'll be back and just a moment with
Chuck Hinward discussing unmasking monsters, how the hunt for New
Zealand's worst criminals changed policing forever.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
All right then? Okay? Is that all right? Mash? You
got a problem with that?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
No, I'm just going to play the doors the under
three Jesus Man one, Okay.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Shit.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
David chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So for thirty seven years in the South Auckland Police
before retiring in two thousand and seven. He held the
rank of Detective sergeant and was awarded a record three
Silver Merit Awards during his time as an officer. Now
on his early seventies, looking Boddy good, Edward has six
grown up children, Geez well done and lives in Cambridge.
He has written the book Unmasking Monsters, How the Hunt
(08:09):
for New Zealand's worst criminals changed, Placing Forever, and he's
in the studio with us.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Great to see you. It's a great book, Chuck, congratulations
on that and thanks for coming in.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Thanks very much. Matt.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
How long did it take you to write it?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Five years?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Five years.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I've been on some long inquiries, but none of them
quite lasted five years.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Did you have all your notebooks?
Speaker 5 (08:35):
I went from I've got rid of a lot of
my notebooks now yeah, right, too much? Too much there.
So you know, I've been gone for a few years
now and I've burned them.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh right, you burned them. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I should probably burn my all the notes on everything
I've been up to my life as well at some point.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So how did that work? Chip? When you when you retired?
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Mate?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Did you did you kind of go this is it?
And I no longer want to think about any of
the stuff that I've been focusing on for so long
now for the last one forty years. As his here
that your career wasn't the end?
Speaker 5 (09:07):
No, not really, I've only recently got rid of the
notebooks and stuff. I knew there was cases still going
and I had to keep kind of active on them.
And although I left in two thousand and seven as
a sworn member, I did hang on around for another
nine years in a non sworn position. So yeah, and
(09:30):
your stuff was boiling away in the background. So yeah,
I kept.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Notebooks essentially how you got into policing, and you know,
sort of these little decisions in your life. I've got
my son who's seventeen at the moment, he's making decisions
about his life, and you're at such a strange age
to make a decision. And you made that decision I'm
going to join the police, and went down to the
police training, which the police training but very different back
(09:56):
then than it is now.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
Absolutely the old World War One barracks and strength. But
I've never heard anybody criticize what we went through there.
It was a it was a kind of a learning
care for all of us, and we learned a lot
and it was a it was a great place.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Really.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I was thinking about that because there's a bit of hazing,
and it all sounds full on and you're sort of tested,
you know, you know, there's a there's an incident where
with buying some alcohol and stuff where you're think you're
going to be kicked out, but you're not, et cetera.
But shouldn't police training be really hard Because being a
police officer is really quite a hardcore.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Thing to do. It kind of makes sense that the
training's brutal.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Yeah, I think so. I think they chop you down
to the basics and then kind of build you up again.
And I think that was the idea. Guessing probably, but yeah,
I mean we it was well, I mean, police is
a discipline thing. I mean, we can't just go out
on the street with everybody with a different opinion and
(11:01):
do what your bloody want, you know, with the public
will come off second best if that happened. So, yeah,
it is a discipline thing, and it was very disciplined.
I think we were more disciplined than the army idiots
across the road, to be honest. We had we had
twelve inch rule downs on our on our sheets, on
our bed and they'd come in in the morning. We
(11:21):
had those those kind of serge uniforms, navy blue they
called it. It looked like black to me, but and they
would you know, they'd rub you and make you rub
the mat down down the front of your uniform, and
then five minutes you had to be out on commodants
parade and and so you had to have another You
had to kind of learn on the hype to put
(11:42):
and make sure you had another spear one and put
in the cupboard, you know, so you could leap into
that and get out on their Otherwise you'd be confined
to barracks, which wasn't a bad thing. We didn't have
any money anywhere to go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So I like when you get out into the police
forcing and of course you're too to the amount of
use you guys would get. I'd never really thought about that.
There's a bit you talk about how when you're you know,
you're underage, and you're standing outside bars because you can't
go in to bust them. I can't go and to
bust people because you're too young to go in, so
you stand out the front and just get abused by
(12:14):
people as they're getting thrown out.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
I think that was part of the learning too. Yeah,
I just got your use of the idea.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So what happened, Shuck, So after you got into policing,
at what stage, mate, was it that, you know what,
it's the investigative side that I want to hid into
or was that always kind of your thoughts from the
get go.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
No, it wasn't my thoughts from the go get go.
And when I when I first joined, when I got
out on the street, CIB were kind of a leaf bunch, okay,
And that's changed, I think. And it wasn't until I
got kind of offside with one of the big bosses
and I ended up in the watchhouse, stuck inside for
a long time, and I was driving me cranky. So
(12:56):
I thought the only way to get out was to
join CIB. And that was a real real thing. And
the funny thing was I never put the uniform back
on once I jaw and so you stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, tell us about investigating at that time, because there
was approach which was each crime was just on its own,
as opposed to linking crimes together.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Am I right?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yeah. It was a few years in the CIB. You know,
I was already a detective sergeant by the time we
struck Operation Park and and you know, we just were
going through homicides and plenty of serious stuff. But this
we had this rape a number of rapes and manor
Riwa in ninety three and we all our normal conventional
(13:44):
policing methods went catching them, you know, we go nowhere.
And I thought, we've tried to trying to find out
where this guy come from. And I went up went
up to Ada. Who I remember there was a few
unsolved rapes in South Auckland around that time, few years earlier.
So I went up there, I got all the files
and I brought them back and that was the beginning
(14:05):
of the behavioral analysis. Really, I just sat down at
nighttime and I was meant to be asleep and I
couldn't do it at work, and I just went through
file by file by file and was stunning. It was
all these unsolved rapes through Otara and Odahu and Papatoe
and and you could once you've looked at them. And
then I did a bit of kind of reading, and
(14:28):
it was quite obvious that these were all committed by
one guy. You know, we're not looking for a whole
lot of individuals here, We're looking for one guy. And
that's how it turned out to be.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And how does that, you know feel when you get
on You know, there's obviously a person that's a repeat offender,
and you know that's a sort of a ticking time
bomb for you to sort of solve the situation before
he strikes again.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Yeah, I mean in the police, you know, we talk
about not enough staff. It's always always been like that.
I mean in South Auckland anyway, there's near enough staff.
You're bully and fighting for one piece of a little
bit of a pie. And so you know you're trying
to investigate it the best you can with shortage of numbers,
(15:10):
and you know you've got one guy out there, but
it was a matter of how do you find him?
You know, that was our problem and it wasn't resolved
for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, and so you started to see these similarities between
these cases and was there a pushback from when you're
trying to say that, when you're trying to approach things
in a different way.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I think they accepted it after a while, but initially
they didn't. Initially they were pushed back on it, I think.
But then of course the good ideas are come along
with their DNA and they matched a number of them
that we said were that I said were linked. And
as soon as the ESR come along, with those and
(15:53):
linked although they knew you had a problem, but I
don't think I don't think they really saw how serious was.
And initially, you know, because there's always serious crimes going
on and everybody's trying to get a piece of the pie.
And we were fighting and yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How how was that particular case solved?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Well after a while, and I think with a lot
of political media and a lot of people pushing.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
This is real, this is the ghost at that point, Yeah, this.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Is this is Jay Thompson. Yeah, and we, you know,
we got pushed into it. And then we could see
that it was getting worse, that the victims were getting
more whacked around what it was getting The violence was increasing,
the number of rapes were going on, and as you're
as you're trying to solve the last one, at the
(16:47):
same time you're trying to prevent the next one from happening,
and with reduced stuffs, it was difficult. And it was
John Manning by this stage had taken over the inquiry
and a cliff fella, and he he had done a
little bit on criminal profiling and already in another case
that Janeine Law I'm sure if you've known about Jeanine law.
(17:09):
But anyway, it's a little bit done on that, and
he extended that into a great big mission, if you like,
with and it was going to the whole inquiry was
going to be based around criminal profiling, which is a
(17:29):
big step because if it failed here to get shot.
And so we've got a lot of we've got staff
to for this to work, we had to get a
lot more staff. So we had to go into a
lot of blooding and get these lists of suspects. And
so that's what happened, and we got staff from all
over the country came in and they were staying up
(17:51):
hotels all over the place, and it was a massive investigation.
By the stage we've already been going for eighteen months.
So conventional policing, the public went going to be able
to give us the name of the offender. So we
went this way and it worked. I mean, Joe Thompson's
name and all the hundreds of it east like fold
(18:14):
as I had from more conventional piecing. His name never
come up once, so we're never going to catch him.
And then when criminal profiling came along, as the name
popped up all over the place. So what we did
the idea of criminal profile is we couldn't catch him
in then now, so we caught him in the past
and something that he can't change. That's that's where he
(18:36):
was so wow.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And there must have been a huge amount of satiffection
as it started to work, because you know, it's an
idea and you think, well, that's not working what we're doing.
This is another plan. But for it to actually work
so well must have been quite something.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Well, yeah, and it was. It was really great relief.
I can say that for a lot of us. So yeah,
it was great. And then of course when we spoke
to Joe brit Simpson and I went and spoke to
him and he just opened the door to his house
and his life and the interview went for twenty hours,
(19:15):
told us everything, told us all about the rapes that
we had on our list, but I had forty on
the list by that stage, Jesus, and he told us
about a whole lot of others we didn't know about.
Some of them hadn't been reported, others we just couldn't
find in our filing system. So yeah, he was been
going on for a decade, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
And so from then the Criminal Profiling Unit, which sounds
like something should be a TV show that's been running
for twenty five years, the Criminal Profiling News of New Zealand.
In fact, if there's any television producers around, it sounds
like the exact kind of thing that would get some
good funding. But then that became like a solid, solid thing.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
After that, Well, we had to go into Operation Harve
you before that, and that was Malcolm ray Way. Oh yes,
And we increased our knowledge on behavior I did over
reading books and reading and when you when you read
enough victim statements, that certain kind of elements become clear
and you can kind of feel like you feel like
(20:15):
if if you read a rape's complaint, a rape complainant statement,
you can kind of think, I've read this guy before.
You know, it's just like reading reading a book by
one of your favorite authors, if you like, you know,
and you know, if you study is crime, you can
get a bit of his personality. And that's that's what
we were doing. I think the idea of behavioral analysis.
(20:37):
You know, they talk a lot about criminal profile and
but behavioral analysis was the was the guts of it
all and understanding the person who's committing this offense. And
then you've got it. Then you put the criminal profile
together from that analysis. So we did that in Harvey
and again we locked up. Malcolm Rable went on for years.
Trial was three months long. I gave evidence as I
(21:02):
was accepted as an expert on rape behavior, so I
gave evidence which backed up the victims. He got convicted.
That there was a little bit of a heck up there.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean that stuff must be pretty frustrating.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Yeah, but you know, Malcolm rave has now been convicted
to the murderous seasion?
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Did it?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
End of story? Really, It's took a long time, but
it's there.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Would you say that people are slightly less complicated than
we think? Like you say, you read the story and
you see these traits people like you know, you say
the similar things. Betweople are people in a way simpler
and repeat the things, including criminals that other people do
because we all think we're amazing the complex people and everything.
But there seems to be similar things about people.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
There are similar things about the way you carry out
a rape. But I think people are complicated human human
age is very complicated. But and I'm already kind of
talking about wonder la aspect, I don't know but I mean,
if you think about a person growing up and he
has a fantasy and he's got to live that fantasy
at each time, he is going to do that, and
(22:13):
that's where you find the little similarities. Yeah, right, the
unusual things. We're not talking about the fact that he
broke in through a window and he did this. I mean,
this is em that's a behavior that people do just
to get in there. It's the things he does to
get his rocks off, if you like.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, well that's what I found really interesting. But the
concept that people know what they're doing is bad and
they don't want to do it, but then they do,
and then they just do it, and once again they're
doing the thing that they know, they feel bad and
they're guilty about. But there's such a huge compulsion to
do these crimes that it's almost unstoppable for them, to
(22:52):
the point where they'll destroy their entire life and a
whole lot of other people's lives for this compulsion.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
That came out fortunately with Jay Thompson's interview, and he
said that that he couldn't stop himself and he just
need to go out and have this appetite and he
didn't know what it was whether it was love, whether
it was need to have somebody with him or to
hold somebody in his arms, or whatever it was. I mean,
there's a quote in the book about it and what
(23:20):
he explained. But I think at the other end of
that is that they're very narcissistic and they're saciopathic. Really
they at the end of the day, they don't They're
not sitting in their cell block now worried about the victims, right,
They're worrying about themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And so you see that as evil.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
There's evil in the world, absolutely, of course there is,
But I mean there's out of a lot of good
stuff too, And that's why I stayed in South Auckland,
you know, because people are pretty critical and of things
that happen. And I think if you stay in a
place long enough and he just look under the surface
a bit, there's all a lot of good people out
(24:02):
there trying to kind of survive in an environment that
probably most of us don't really understand, and how hard
it is to kind of live extore to women, gang
members and trying to bring up a family and where
the family next door don't do anything except sell drugs
and they drive around in a Harley and the family
next door have got father and mother both working two
(24:25):
jobs and they're struggling to make ends meet and you're
going to bring your kids up.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah yeah, So what do you think of, like, so
you know all these changes that came, the criminal profiling
and stuff, what do you think of where policing is
at now in New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Because what what?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
What?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Actually?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Was I found really interesting the bookcause I'd always thought
the police had everything sorted out in a way. I mean,
there's there's cases they come up and you see mistakes
and a court and stuff, but you kind of feel
like the police are the solid unit. But you kind
of get the feeling that police for the longest time
just been mucking through against an impossible of task. Is
police with all the technology now and and you know
(25:06):
all this knowledge that's come through, is is it? I mean,
how do you feel about policing now?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You've got more faith in it?
Speaker 5 (25:13):
Well, policing. You know, we're never going to win the war.
All you do is go out and win the battles
for victims, and that's what we're ever going to do.
It's not going to get any better. Society is not
going to get any better. Base that on the fact
that we're kind of we're at them and kind of
on the edge of them and nowhere as far as
(25:35):
morality is concerned, and there's going to be a lot
more people like Malcolm Row and Joe Thompson popping up
and we're going to have to kind of just keep
moving forward. Staffing is always going to be an issue
and and a thing like Operation Park and Harvey. What
they tell you is if we have enough staff and
we have the right formula, we can catch these people.
(25:59):
But we're never going to have an staff. I mean,
let's face it, that's just not going to happen. And
as for whether we're going to lose staff over the
next little while because of the present situation, as long
as we don't lose our senior nco is the street battlers,
you know, the sergeants, the senior sergeants, we'll be right.
I think we'll get by. But you know, if we
(26:20):
start losing them, we struggling.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming and Chuck
Enwood unmasking monsters, how they hunt for New Zealand's Worth criminals.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Change are policing forever.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It's a fantastic greed and I thoroughly recommend it. It's
it's available now on Allen and unwe box where if
you get your box. But yeah, congratulations on the book, mate,
and on your career, and you're a great New Zealander
and thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Thanks Matt, jess.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Bert chuck Enwood has left the building. Good look at Matt,
deep booming voice.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And great pipes, eight pipes.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I could have listened to him all day. I was
kind of actually just quite happy to let him go.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Yeah you could.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We could have gone for another three hours. We could
have got deeper into all his cases and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But man, what a man, Yeah, what a mean took
in would like I really recommend that book and I'm
asking monsters. It's just an interesting look through the history
of New Zealand, you know, from the from the early
eighties right to now, and how much we've changed as
a society, as well as horrible criminals as well.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Well.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I'm sure we can mention it. We had to chat
to him off here there that we didn't leave on
with the Microsoft for but how to catch up with them? Interesting?
I mean, he's just a fascinating man, he's got a
lot of thoughts about where policing's heading. It's nice that
he's pretty optimistic about it. You can tell he loves
his cops. He's one of those boys.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And yeah, well, I mean he's sort of optimistic.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
And also like, there's always going to be and there's
going to be more and more bad people and police
are never going to be able to solve that problem.
And the real problem is that what do we do
about how they're caused? Because they're caused by a difficult
situations where you know, like you know, people living in
terrible situations with you know, terrible neighbors, you know, and
(28:09):
the options are very, very poor for them.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
So how do you freaking solve that? I mean, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I mean, you know, there's the Target longjugrenal study that
came out a few years ago and it was Tugging
University and just said basically, you've got to sort people
out in the first three years or the die is
cast and they find it very hard to come back
from that.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
So no one's going to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Like, we keep pumping money into terstory education, but you
have to be in a good head space to even
look at Tertory education or god, I mean, I reckon
it might be one of those problems that doesn't have
a solution.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
He had a great quote that you're doing that and
it's the opposite to most things in the sense that
in policing you just got to win the battles. You
don't you can't worry about the war. Unfortunately the battles
that you find police are never going to win.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
The going to win the war, but that the battles
just keep going on.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
But yeah, well, all right, great New Zealander and a year.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I recommend that book. Give it a geeze.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
The publicists that actually came in with Chuck because he's
got that wonderful mustache and as you said, good looking
man for a seventies. She said at the book launch
last night, it was just a whole heap of carbon
copies of Chuck. It all these amazing police officers. But
the thing that she said that was amazing was that
a lot of the victims of the crimes the police
(29:24):
officers are still really close with and they were along
with the book launch as well, and she just said
it was really interesting to watch these cops that have
in the main retired and still had these relationships with
these these people that they helped over the years, So
you know, you do you do? Hear a lot of
stories about about some not so great cops, but yeah,
(29:44):
obviously there are a lot of really really good police
out there.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
People that just work their ass off to help victims.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, so bless them. But he kind reminds me of
that actor. What's that actor? Real deep voice, white mustache.
Ah a boy he was in Yellowstone, not Costner.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh God, what's that actor's name.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It's going to kill me, Jesus Christ, deepest voices in
He appears in The Big Lebowski talking at the bar,
and he's got that incredible voice. Someone will know him.
So he's also in Roadhouse, The Original Roadhouse A right, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Also, by the way, he didn't he just won an
award for having the biggest egg plant. I'm having a
look at the photo of the guy that won the
biggest egg plant here in front of me, and that
might be the same dude.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Similar that's Cocredilations.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I'm going to look this up because he's going to
freaking kill me.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
The Original Original Roadhouse, The Original Roadhouse from nineteen eighty nine.
The actor Sam Elliott. He's got a strong Sam Elliott
bye about him.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
He does too, grandmom, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Something for the Grandmom's all right then okay, you guys
seem busy. I'll let you go all right then, okay, okay, boys,
all right then absolutely, okay, Jesus Jesus, see you, Maddie.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
All right, see you guys.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's good night, mash you.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I've got a computer here if you've signed out talk
to or you can use this to one either you
want me to do it. Oh yeah, I can do it, mate,
I can do it right.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Okay, make great work today.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Okay, look after yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Should shook ken Wood?
Speaker 6 (31:31):
I mean we're still recording on the podcast. Can we
leave this? Are we still recording? Can we leave this?
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Bitter?
Speaker 6 (31:38):
And then when Matt listens back, help me like what
the fuck are they doing?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Okay, okay, I bespoke of dokies. Oh this is feels
quite sneaky.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
This is so naughty, he met. Can I just say
good job in the last few days, buddy, You're doing well, Maddie,
really bringing the noise without Jerry.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Okay, So if you if you down with the plane
and you haven't hear what we're just talking about is
now We've going to record a podcast ad for the radio.
So I'm just going to record this. You be with
us Hiperspoky, I'm doing this.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
By the way, we got we asked you four pallars
of getting females to the party. We pay tribute to
Seawn Johnson, who's a trialing from the n r L
and we talked took inward inwards with a massive.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Mo in.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
What about insured police legend and.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Police legion with with.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
An amazing mustache.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Well, the moment.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I'm going to change that.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
The besmokey dokeies are some of the luckiest people.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Want they really this is this is equivalent of only fans.
There are some fans that would pay money and they
don't have to They just have to sit through a
couple of horrendous adverts. They would pay money to do this.
In fact, imagine if we offered up a text competition
and two lucky spoky dookies could come and watch the
(33:06):
live recording of the met and Jury podcast.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
When you say lucky with smoky dokies, why are they
going to sit on the two toilets that di celect
it from the day and lou.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I reckon, We'll put one of them on the bean
bag behind me.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I know you've already made a mistake. You've let them
in the studio. Yeah, I think that's too close.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
No be spoky dokies. In general, the generalization, are really
good people who will listen to what we have to say.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
If you want my vote on where they should be.
One under the desk here just me, and under the
in front of you or beside you, and then one
on the Gary chee in the corner of it.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Okay, Now I agree with number two. Number one.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, they can get there, you can come and go,
they can move around. I just like at some point
to make an appearance into the desk side. On the
latest Met and Jury podcasts, we ask for your four
pillars of getting females to the party and we played
tribute Paid Tribute Tribute to Shawn Johnson who's retiring from
the NFL. Plus US, we talked to Chuck in Wood
inzid Police Legend with a mo the.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Mana Jury pod.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Okay cool. On the latest Mattenjery podcasts, we ask for
your four pillars of getting females to the party and
we play tribute to Sean Johnson, sorry you said play again,
and we pay tribute and we pay tribute to Sean
Johnson who's retiring from the NRL. Plus, we talked to
Chuck in Wood, Incid police legion with a mint Mo.
The Metenjury Podcast. Two new pods out every weekday at
(34:26):
eleven am on iHeart Radio or your podcasts. Shove that
up your ass. Let me do that one, but last part,
I'll did the whole thing. On the latest Mattenjery podcasts,
we ask for your four pillars of getting females to
the party, and we pay tribute to Sean Johnson who's
retiring from the NRL. Plus, we talked to Chuck Inwood
Inzied police legend, who's also got a mint Mo. The
(34:46):
metten Jury Podcast. Two new pods out every weekday at
eleven am on iHeart Radio or where ever you find
your podcasts. Hey, tell a friend, do.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
You know what? I'll probably take the first take and
then cut to the tell friend because the first take
was better, but the teller friends.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Look, I'm not going to get about it, mate.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
One one other point before we go, oh yeah, sorry, Matt,
Matt will hate this, isn't it I've got to get
rid of this congestion. Isn't it interesting? Interesting? Chuck Henwood,
that beautiful mustache, very Peter Plumley Walker.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
It is very Peter plummy Walker.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
It is one of the most infamous police and crime
cases in New Zealand history.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I don't want to raise one of the biggest questions
of the podcast or the podcast. Have we seen Peter
Plumley Walker and Chucking Wood in the same room.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
I know I haven't.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
I hope cho Kingwood don't listen back to this podcast.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
You'll be disgusted.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Choke Hinward, Chuckinwood, You're a greatly choke. That's what you've done. Okay,
we're gonna let this bespoke. I hope you enjoyed that.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Hello, I'm Matt Heath.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
You have been listening to the Matt and Jerry Daily
Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen to our Radio
Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Barred up about anyway.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Set to download, like, subscribe, writer, review all those great things.
It really helps myself and Jerry and to a lesser extent,
mess and Ruder. If you want to discuss anything raised
in this pod, check out the Conclave, a Matt and
Jerry Facebook discussion group. And while I'm plugging stuff, my
book A Life is Punishing Thirteen Ways to Love the
life You've got is out.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Now get it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Wherever you get your books, or just google the bastard.
Anyway you seem busy, I'll let you go.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Bless blessed, blessed. Give them a taste of key we
from me.
It is the sixth of August twenty twenty four and
this is your daily bespoke podcast. Welcome all you bespokey dokies.
It's a serious podcast today, So boys.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I want you to not embarrass me. We're talking to
We're going to interview Chuck Enwood.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
He served thirty seven years in South Auckland before retiring
in two thousand and seven. He had the rank of
a detective sergeant and was rewarded a record three Silver
Merit awards during his time as an officer. Now and
as early seventies, Hendwood has six grown up children and
he lives in Cambridge.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Is a really interesting boch. It's about how this guy started.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
The criminal profiling units. So when they were trying to
solve crimes in New Zealand, they used to do them
independently and act as if every criminal, every crime was
committed by different people. And then Chuck Enwood started reading
up overseas about MS. Modus operati and on the theory
(01:29):
that most crime has committed lots of crimes are committed
by one person as opposed to you know what I mean, Like,
criminals commit a lot of crimes. So if you're a
criminal a murderer or a rapist, then you were quite
likely to do those things more than once. And so
he started the criminal Profiling Unit in New Zealand which
had never been before, which was psychologists kind of like
(01:51):
what you might see on TV, you know, like Criminal
Minds and those kind of TV shows where you had
a group of people that were trying to go from
crime to crime and link them using science and psychology.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Because we forget and I think there was only a
recent thing about mid eighties when people started taking serial
killers as a serious thing, as people whenever there was
a murder, people would just you know, the idea of
murders being linked, I think was quite a foreign idea. Yeah, yeah,
I mean it was similar to the TV show, was it,
mind Hunter that examined a similar thing over in the States, And.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, so he was ahead of his time or chocky, yeah,
chucky wise and you know, but it is the case
with crime. So there's a lot of burglaries, but there's
not that many burglars because if you're a professional burglar,
you might do one hundred and.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fifty houses, you know, and so.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
When you put one burglar away, you actually end up
solving a whole lot of a whole lot of burglaries.
And it's the same with horrific crimes like rape as
well as these people that just repeat and repeat again.
And so you know, if you can profile them and
work out what they do and why they do it,
then you can maybe you know, bust them quicker and
(02:58):
know what they're can do and help people predict themselves.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So it's a pretty serious thing.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
And what I found interesting when I read the book
as that you think that this would all be known about,
but you realize that policing is something that changes with
time and people get better at it. I mean, for me,
I thought, sure Holmes, he got it all sorted way
back in the day. I know he was a private investigator,
but you know, like you'd go to a scene, you'd
(03:22):
work it out, youselve the crime quickly too, yeah, quite quickly,
you know. But it turns out that policing was quite rudimentary.
Like even in the eighties, you just sort of some
dudes just rocked around in a car, sort of knocked
on some.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Doors, did chucky hands and hin would sorry have a
Michael Watson, you know, like if they have a sidekick,
maybe that's a question I could ask, makes you.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
He had his criminal profile and unit, which was a
group of people Watson's, Yeah, Grover Watsons that have him solved.
I mean he solved the murder of the Ghost, which
was a horrific rapist that was operating for a long time.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, so and that that was what's the guy's name,
the ghost when they found him.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
His name was Joseph Thompson.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Joseph Thompson, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
He also Malcolm Rawa, he dealt with him. And also
he was one of the first people to remember Tenor Porter.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Oh, yes, Tan of Porter.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
He wasn't he was wrongly convicted and and Chuck Enward
knowing his stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He was. He was an advocate for this guy.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So he was finding people that have done it and
find people that have been accused of doing it and
be convicted of doing it, and bloody campaigning for them.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
That must have been quite hard being in the police
and saying, actually, guys, I think you've got this wrong,
and to continue campaigning, yeah, against other policemen. Yeah, saying
you've got this one wrong. I still working there.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Imagined that would have been quite a it's kind of
a Marcher organization back in the day, wouldn't you know,
like set in their ways is the way we've been
doing it. In fact, he talks about at his book
about how it used to work, like a lot of
it was police just putting it off to other They
knew if they wrapped up cases and sent it down
(05:12):
to other police stations, they wouldn't have to deal with it.
So they'd have a because a lot of criminals work
in freezing works, they'd have a suspects thought to be
in a freezing work. So you have that case in
South Aukland and you go, oh, well, there's a freedom
works near in Vicago, so we'll send it down to
that police station and it would just go around and
so you're basically just sending them off because there was
(05:32):
no computers, so there was no cross referencing and that
kind of thing. And he talks about a police sergeant
who had just basically locked the door and put his
feet up at night, and you'd been in a lot
of trouble if you're knocked on the door.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So yeah, thing things had to change. But you know,
when you look.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Back, and like I always think about the David Bain
case and the cops that knocked on the door there,
and one of them was my friend's dad, Constable Murray's
stab and he'd been a a traffic cop not long
before that. So you had these cops that were no
fault of their own. They weren't really trained for these
full on circumstances. They were just turning up knocking on
(06:09):
the door, you see, like a multiple family murder like that.
Then you know, what do you do with that? Yeah,
and say, it's just it's just interesting. We always think
that the police is this unit that's sorted out and
knows what they're doing, a cohesive knows what it's doing
with the planned procedure experts bored and those white suits,
(06:33):
the CSI type situation, and you know, it hasn't always
been like that.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
It used to be for a long time.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Reading this book, it seems like it was a bit
of a bloody cowboy operation and just because they didn't know,
you know, they didn't went.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Also, it's interesting in this book, I should ask these
questions if Chuck Kinwood when he comes in, But just
what police training used to be like? It used to
be pretty freaking intense.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Which just couldn't email saying, is that reception? So I'm
just duck o all right?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So interesting because a lot of people called Hinward the
last name Hinwood, get called Chuck as.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
A joke because of the hen m. Do Heinward's never
gone for the Chuck Inwood?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Is he? No? He is not.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And I might start calling him.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Calling him Chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
It'll be confusing, just as Chuck Ininwoods book comes out
if we start.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Calling Die Heinwood Chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
But anyway, we'll be back and just a moment with
Chuck Hinward discussing unmasking monsters, how the hunt for New
Zealand's worst criminals changed policing forever.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
All right then? Okay? Is that all right? Mash? You
got a problem with that?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
No, I'm just going to play the doors the under
three Jesus Man one, Okay.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Shit.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
David chuck Inward.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So for thirty seven years in the South Auckland Police
before retiring in two thousand and seven. He held the
rank of Detective sergeant and was awarded a record three
Silver Merit Awards during his time as an officer. Now
on his early seventies, looking Boddy good, Edward has six
grown up children, Geez well done and lives in Cambridge.
He has written the book Unmasking Monsters, How the Hunt
(08:09):
for New Zealand's worst criminals changed, Placing Forever, and he's
in the studio with us.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Great to see you. It's a great book, Chuck, congratulations
on that and thanks for coming in.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Thanks very much. Matt.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
How long did it take you to write it?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Five years?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Five years.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I've been on some long inquiries, but none of them
quite lasted five years.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Did you have all your notebooks?
Speaker 5 (08:35):
I went from I've got rid of a lot of
my notebooks now yeah, right, too much? Too much there.
So you know, I've been gone for a few years
now and I've burned them.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh right, you burned them. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I should probably burn my all the notes on everything
I've been up to my life as well at some point.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So how did that work? Chip? When you when you retired?
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Mate?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Did you did you kind of go this is it?
And I no longer want to think about any of
the stuff that I've been focusing on for so long
now for the last one forty years. As his here
that your career wasn't the end?
Speaker 5 (09:07):
No, not really, I've only recently got rid of the
notebooks and stuff. I knew there was cases still going
and I had to keep kind of active on them.
And although I left in two thousand and seven as
a sworn member, I did hang on around for another
nine years in a non sworn position. So yeah, and
(09:30):
your stuff was boiling away in the background. So yeah,
I kept.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Notebooks essentially how you got into policing, and you know,
sort of these little decisions in your life. I've got
my son who's seventeen at the moment, he's making decisions
about his life, and you're at such a strange age
to make a decision. And you made that decision I'm
going to join the police, and went down to the
police training, which the police training but very different back
(09:56):
then than it is now.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
Absolutely the old World War One barracks and strength. But
I've never heard anybody criticize what we went through there.
It was a it was a kind of a learning
care for all of us, and we learned a lot
and it was a it was a great place.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Really.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I was thinking about that because there's a bit of hazing,
and it all sounds full on and you're sort of tested,
you know, you know, there's a there's an incident where
with buying some alcohol and stuff where you're think you're
going to be kicked out, but you're not, et cetera.
But shouldn't police training be really hard Because being a
police officer is really quite a hardcore.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Thing to do. It kind of makes sense that the
training's brutal.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Yeah, I think so. I think they chop you down
to the basics and then kind of build you up again.
And I think that was the idea. Guessing probably, but yeah,
I mean we it was well, I mean, police is
a discipline thing. I mean, we can't just go out
on the street with everybody with a different opinion and
(11:01):
do what your bloody want, you know, with the public
will come off second best if that happened. So, yeah,
it is a discipline thing, and it was very disciplined.
I think we were more disciplined than the army idiots
across the road, to be honest. We had we had
twelve inch rule downs on our on our sheets, on
our bed and they'd come in in the morning. We
(11:21):
had those those kind of serge uniforms, navy blue they
called it. It looked like black to me, but and they
would you know, they'd rub you and make you rub
the mat down down the front of your uniform, and
then five minutes you had to be out on commodants
parade and and so you had to have another You
had to kind of learn on the hype to put
(11:42):
and make sure you had another spear one and put
in the cupboard, you know, so you could leap into
that and get out on their Otherwise you'd be confined
to barracks, which wasn't a bad thing. We didn't have
any money anywhere to go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
So I like when you get out into the police
forcing and of course you're too to the amount of
use you guys would get. I'd never really thought about that.
There's a bit you talk about how when you're you know,
you're underage, and you're standing outside bars because you can't
go in to bust them. I can't go and to
bust people because you're too young to go in, so
you stand out the front and just get abused by
(12:14):
people as they're getting thrown out.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
I think that was part of the learning too. Yeah,
I just got your use of the idea.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So what happened, Shuck, So after you got into policing,
at what stage, mate, was it that, you know what,
it's the investigative side that I want to hid into
or was that always kind of your thoughts from the
get go.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
No, it wasn't my thoughts from the go get go.
And when I when I first joined, when I got
out on the street, CIB were kind of a leaf bunch, okay,
And that's changed, I think. And it wasn't until I
got kind of offside with one of the big bosses
and I ended up in the watchhouse, stuck inside for
a long time, and I was driving me cranky. So
(12:56):
I thought the only way to get out was to
join CIB. And that was a real real thing. And
the funny thing was I never put the uniform back
on once I jaw and so you stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, tell us about investigating at that time, because there
was approach which was each crime was just on its own,
as opposed to linking crimes together.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Am I right?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yeah. It was a few years in the CIB. You know,
I was already a detective sergeant by the time we
struck Operation Park and and you know, we just were
going through homicides and plenty of serious stuff. But this
we had this rape a number of rapes and manor
Riwa in ninety three and we all our normal conventional
(13:44):
policing methods went catching them, you know, we go nowhere.
And I thought, we've tried to trying to find out
where this guy come from. And I went up went
up to Ada. Who I remember there was a few
unsolved rapes in South Auckland around that time, few years earlier.
So I went up there, I got all the files
and I brought them back and that was the beginning
(14:05):
of the behavioral analysis. Really, I just sat down at
nighttime and I was meant to be asleep and I
couldn't do it at work, and I just went through
file by file by file and was stunning. It was
all these unsolved rapes through Otara and Odahu and Papatoe
and and you could once you've looked at them. And
then I did a bit of kind of reading, and
(14:28):
it was quite obvious that these were all committed by
one guy. You know, we're not looking for a whole
lot of individuals here, We're looking for one guy. And
that's how it turned out to be.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And how does that, you know feel when you get
on You know, there's obviously a person that's a repeat offender,
and you know that's a sort of a ticking time
bomb for you to sort of solve the situation before
he strikes again.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Yeah, I mean in the police, you know, we talk
about not enough staff. It's always always been like that.
I mean in South Auckland anyway, there's near enough staff.
You're bully and fighting for one piece of a little
bit of a pie. And so you know you're trying
to investigate it the best you can with shortage of numbers,
(15:10):
and you know you've got one guy out there, but
it was a matter of how do you find him?
You know, that was our problem and it wasn't resolved
for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, and so you started to see these similarities between
these cases and was there a pushback from when you're
trying to say that, when you're trying to approach things
in a different way.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I think they accepted it after a while, but initially
they didn't. Initially they were pushed back on it, I think.
But then of course the good ideas are come along
with their DNA and they matched a number of them
that we said were that I said were linked. And
as soon as the ESR come along, with those and
(15:53):
linked although they knew you had a problem, but I
don't think I don't think they really saw how serious was.
And initially, you know, because there's always serious crimes going
on and everybody's trying to get a piece of the pie.
And we were fighting and yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How how was that particular case solved?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Well after a while, and I think with a lot
of political media and a lot of people pushing.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
This is real, this is the ghost at that point, Yeah, this.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Is this is Jay Thompson. Yeah, and we, you know,
we got pushed into it. And then we could see
that it was getting worse, that the victims were getting
more whacked around what it was getting The violence was increasing,
the number of rapes were going on, and as you're
as you're trying to solve the last one, at the
(16:47):
same time you're trying to prevent the next one from happening,
and with reduced stuffs, it was difficult. And it was
John Manning by this stage had taken over the inquiry
and a cliff fella, and he he had done a
little bit on criminal profiling and already in another case
that Janeine Law I'm sure if you've known about Jeanine law.
(17:09):
But anyway, it's a little bit done on that, and
he extended that into a great big mission, if you like,
with and it was going to the whole inquiry was
going to be based around criminal profiling, which is a
(17:29):
big step because if it failed here to get shot.
And so we've got a lot of we've got staff
to for this to work, we had to get a
lot more staff. So we had to go into a
lot of blooding and get these lists of suspects. And
so that's what happened, and we got staff from all
over the country came in and they were staying up
(17:51):
hotels all over the place, and it was a massive investigation.
By the stage we've already been going for eighteen months.
So conventional policing, the public went going to be able
to give us the name of the offender. So we
went this way and it worked. I mean, Joe Thompson's
name and all the hundreds of it east like fold
(18:14):
as I had from more conventional piecing. His name never
come up once, so we're never going to catch him.
And then when criminal profiling came along, as the name
popped up all over the place. So what we did
the idea of criminal profile is we couldn't catch him
in then now, so we caught him in the past
and something that he can't change. That's that's where he
(18:36):
was so wow.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And there must have been a huge amount of satiffection
as it started to work, because you know, it's an
idea and you think, well, that's not working what we're doing.
This is another plan. But for it to actually work
so well must have been quite something.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Well, yeah, and it was. It was really great relief.
I can say that for a lot of us. So yeah,
it was great. And then of course when we spoke
to Joe brit Simpson and I went and spoke to
him and he just opened the door to his house
and his life and the interview went for twenty hours,
(19:15):
told us everything, told us all about the rapes that
we had on our list, but I had forty on
the list by that stage, Jesus, and he told us
about a whole lot of others we didn't know about.
Some of them hadn't been reported, others we just couldn't
find in our filing system. So yeah, he was been
going on for a decade, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
And so from then the Criminal Profiling Unit, which sounds
like something should be a TV show that's been running
for twenty five years, the Criminal Profiling News of New Zealand.
In fact, if there's any television producers around, it sounds
like the exact kind of thing that would get some
good funding. But then that became like a solid, solid thing.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
After that, Well, we had to go into Operation Harve
you before that, and that was Malcolm ray Way. Oh yes,
And we increased our knowledge on behavior I did over
reading books and reading and when you when you read
enough victim statements, that certain kind of elements become clear
and you can kind of feel like you feel like
(20:15):
if if you read a rape's complaint, a rape complainant statement,
you can kind of think, I've read this guy before.
You know, it's just like reading reading a book by
one of your favorite authors, if you like, you know,
and you know, if you study is crime, you can
get a bit of his personality. And that's that's what
we were doing. I think the idea of behavioral analysis.
(20:37):
You know, they talk a lot about criminal profile and
but behavioral analysis was the was the guts of it
all and understanding the person who's committing this offense. And
then you've got it. Then you put the criminal profile
together from that analysis. So we did that in Harvey
and again we locked up. Malcolm Rable went on for years.
Trial was three months long. I gave evidence as I
(21:02):
was accepted as an expert on rape behavior, so I
gave evidence which backed up the victims. He got convicted.
That there was a little bit of a heck up there.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean that stuff must be pretty frustrating.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Yeah, but you know, Malcolm rave has now been convicted
to the murderous seasion?
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Did it?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
End of story? Really, It's took a long time, but
it's there.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Would you say that people are slightly less complicated than
we think? Like you say, you read the story and
you see these traits people like you know, you say
the similar things. Betweople are people in a way simpler
and repeat the things, including criminals that other people do
because we all think we're amazing the complex people and everything.
But there seems to be similar things about people.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
There are similar things about the way you carry out
a rape. But I think people are complicated human human
age is very complicated. But and I'm already kind of
talking about wonder la aspect, I don't know but I mean,
if you think about a person growing up and he
has a fantasy and he's got to live that fantasy
at each time, he is going to do that, and
(22:13):
that's where you find the little similarities. Yeah, right, the
unusual things. We're not talking about the fact that he
broke in through a window and he did this. I mean,
this is em that's a behavior that people do just
to get in there. It's the things he does to
get his rocks off, if you like.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, well that's what I found really interesting. But the
concept that people know what they're doing is bad and
they don't want to do it, but then they do,
and then they just do it, and once again they're
doing the thing that they know, they feel bad and
they're guilty about. But there's such a huge compulsion to
do these crimes that it's almost unstoppable for them, to
(22:52):
the point where they'll destroy their entire life and a
whole lot of other people's lives for this compulsion.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
That came out fortunately with Jay Thompson's interview, and he
said that that he couldn't stop himself and he just
need to go out and have this appetite and he
didn't know what it was whether it was love, whether
it was need to have somebody with him or to
hold somebody in his arms, or whatever it was. I mean,
there's a quote in the book about it and what
(23:20):
he explained. But I think at the other end of
that is that they're very narcissistic and they're saciopathic. Really
they at the end of the day, they don't They're
not sitting in their cell block now worried about the victims, right,
They're worrying about themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And so you see that as evil.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
There's evil in the world, absolutely, of course there is,
But I mean there's out of a lot of good
stuff too, And that's why I stayed in South Auckland,
you know, because people are pretty critical and of things
that happen. And I think if you stay in a
place long enough and he just look under the surface
a bit, there's all a lot of good people out
(24:02):
there trying to kind of survive in an environment that
probably most of us don't really understand, and how hard
it is to kind of live extore to women, gang
members and trying to bring up a family and where
the family next door don't do anything except sell drugs
and they drive around in a Harley and the family
next door have got father and mother both working two
(24:25):
jobs and they're struggling to make ends meet and you're
going to bring your kids up.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah yeah, So what do you think of, like, so
you know all these changes that came, the criminal profiling
and stuff, what do you think of where policing is
at now in New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Because what what?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
What?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Actually?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Was I found really interesting the bookcause I'd always thought
the police had everything sorted out in a way. I mean,
there's there's cases they come up and you see mistakes
and a court and stuff, but you kind of feel
like the police are the solid unit. But you kind
of get the feeling that police for the longest time
just been mucking through against an impossible of task. Is
police with all the technology now and and you know
(25:06):
all this knowledge that's come through, is is it? I mean,
how do you feel about policing now?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You've got more faith in it?
Speaker 5 (25:13):
Well, policing. You know, we're never going to win the war.
All you do is go out and win the battles
for victims, and that's what we're ever going to do.
It's not going to get any better. Society is not
going to get any better. Base that on the fact
that we're kind of we're at them and kind of
on the edge of them and nowhere as far as
(25:35):
morality is concerned, and there's going to be a lot
more people like Malcolm Row and Joe Thompson popping up
and we're going to have to kind of just keep
moving forward. Staffing is always going to be an issue
and and a thing like Operation Park and Harvey. What
they tell you is if we have enough staff and
we have the right formula, we can catch these people.
(25:59):
But we're never going to have an staff. I mean,
let's face it, that's just not going to happen. And
as for whether we're going to lose staff over the
next little while because of the present situation, as long
as we don't lose our senior nco is the street battlers,
you know, the sergeants, the senior sergeants, we'll be right.
I think we'll get by. But you know, if we
(26:20):
start losing them, we struggling.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming and Chuck
Enwood unmasking monsters, how they hunt for New Zealand's Worth criminals.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Change are policing forever.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It's a fantastic greed and I thoroughly recommend it. It's
it's available now on Allen and unwe box where if
you get your box. But yeah, congratulations on the book, mate,
and on your career, and you're a great New Zealander
and thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Thanks Matt, jess.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Bert chuck Enwood has left the building. Good look at Matt,
deep booming voice.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And great pipes, eight pipes.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I could have listened to him all day. I was
kind of actually just quite happy to let him go.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Yeah you could.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
We could have gone for another three hours. We could
have got deeper into all his cases and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But man, what a man, Yeah, what a mean took
in would like I really recommend that book and I'm
asking monsters. It's just an interesting look through the history
of New Zealand, you know, from the from the early
eighties right to now, and how much we've changed as
a society, as well as horrible criminals as well.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Well.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I'm sure we can mention it. We had to chat
to him off here there that we didn't leave on
with the Microsoft for but how to catch up with them? Interesting?
I mean, he's just a fascinating man, he's got a
lot of thoughts about where policing's heading. It's nice that
he's pretty optimistic about it. You can tell he loves
his cops. He's one of those boys.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And yeah, well, I mean he's sort of optimistic.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
And also like, there's always going to be and there's
going to be more and more bad people and police
are never going to be able to solve that problem.
And the real problem is that what do we do
about how they're caused? Because they're caused by a difficult
situations where you know, like you know, people living in
terrible situations with you know, terrible neighbors, you know, and
(28:09):
the options are very, very poor for them.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
So how do you freaking solve that? I mean, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I mean, you know, there's the Target longjugrenal study that
came out a few years ago and it was Tugging
University and just said basically, you've got to sort people
out in the first three years or the die is
cast and they find it very hard to come back
from that.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
So no one's going to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Like, we keep pumping money into terstory education, but you
have to be in a good head space to even
look at Tertory education or god, I mean, I reckon
it might be one of those problems that doesn't have
a solution.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
He had a great quote that you're doing that and
it's the opposite to most things in the sense that
in policing you just got to win the battles. You
don't you can't worry about the war. Unfortunately the battles
that you find police are never going to win.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
The going to win the war, but that the battles
just keep going on.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
But yeah, well, all right, great New Zealander and a year.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I recommend that book. Give it a geeze.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
The publicists that actually came in with Chuck because he's
got that wonderful mustache and as you said, good looking
man for a seventies. She said at the book launch
last night, it was just a whole heap of carbon
copies of Chuck. It all these amazing police officers. But
the thing that she said that was amazing was that
a lot of the victims of the crimes the police
(29:24):
officers are still really close with and they were along
with the book launch as well, and she just said
it was really interesting to watch these cops that have
in the main retired and still had these relationships with
these these people that they helped over the years, So
you know, you do you do? Hear a lot of
stories about about some not so great cops, but yeah,
(29:44):
obviously there are a lot of really really good police
out there.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
People that just work their ass off to help victims.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, so bless them. But he kind reminds me of
that actor. What's that actor? Real deep voice, white mustache.
Ah a boy he was in Yellowstone, not Costner.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh God, what's that actor's name.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It's going to kill me, Jesus Christ, deepest voices in
He appears in The Big Lebowski talking at the bar,
and he's got that incredible voice. Someone will know him.
So he's also in Roadhouse, The Original Roadhouse A right, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Also, by the way, he didn't he just won an
award for having the biggest egg plant. I'm having a
look at the photo of the guy that won the
biggest egg plant here in front of me, and that
might be the same dude.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Similar that's Cocredilations.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I'm going to look this up because he's going to
freaking kill me.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
The Original Original Roadhouse, The Original Roadhouse from nineteen eighty nine.
The actor Sam Elliott. He's got a strong Sam Elliott
bye about him.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
He does too, grandmom, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Something for the Grandmom's all right then okay, you guys
seem busy. I'll let you go all right then, okay, okay, boys,
all right then absolutely, okay, Jesus Jesus, see you, Maddie.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
All right, see you guys.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's good night, mash you.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I've got a computer here if you've signed out talk
to or you can use this to one either you
want me to do it. Oh yeah, I can do it, mate,
I can do it right.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Okay, make great work today.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Okay, look after yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Should shook ken Wood?
Speaker 6 (31:31):
I mean we're still recording on the podcast. Can we
leave this? Are we still recording? Can we leave this?
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Bitter?
Speaker 6 (31:38):
And then when Matt listens back, help me like what
the fuck are they doing?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Okay, okay, I bespoke of dokies. Oh this is feels
quite sneaky.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
This is so naughty, he met. Can I just say
good job in the last few days, buddy, You're doing well, Maddie,
really bringing the noise without Jerry.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Okay, So if you if you down with the plane
and you haven't hear what we're just talking about is
now We've going to record a podcast ad for the radio.
So I'm just going to record this. You be with
us Hiperspoky, I'm doing this.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
By the way, we got we asked you four pallars
of getting females to the party. We pay tribute to
Seawn Johnson, who's a trialing from the n r L
and we talked took inward inwards with a massive.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Mo in.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
What about insured police legend and.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Police legion with with.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
An amazing mustache.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Well, the moment.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I'm going to change that.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
The besmokey dokeies are some of the luckiest people.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Want they really this is this is equivalent of only fans.
There are some fans that would pay money and they
don't have to They just have to sit through a
couple of horrendous adverts. They would pay money to do this.
In fact, imagine if we offered up a text competition
and two lucky spoky dookies could come and watch the
(33:06):
live recording of the met and Jury podcast.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
When you say lucky with smoky dokies, why are they
going to sit on the two toilets that di celect
it from the day and lou.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
I reckon, We'll put one of them on the bean
bag behind me.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I know you've already made a mistake. You've let them
in the studio. Yeah, I think that's too close.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
No be spoky dokies. In general, the generalization, are really
good people who will listen to what we have to say.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
If you want my vote on where they should be.
One under the desk here just me, and under the
in front of you or beside you, and then one
on the Gary chee in the corner of it.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Okay, Now I agree with number two. Number one.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, they can get there, you can come and go,
they can move around. I just like at some point
to make an appearance into the desk side. On the
latest Met and Jury podcasts, we ask for your four
pillars of getting females to the party and we played
tribute Paid Tribute Tribute to Shawn Johnson who's retiring from
the NFL. Plus US, we talked to Chuck in Wood
inzid Police Legend with a mo the.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Mana Jury pod.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Okay cool. On the latest Mattenjery podcasts, we ask for
your four pillars of getting females to the party and
we play tribute to Sean Johnson, sorry you said play again,
and we pay tribute and we pay tribute to Sean
Johnson who's retiring from the NRL. Plus, we talked to
Chuck in Wood, Incid police legion with a mint Mo.
The Metenjury Podcast. Two new pods out every weekday at
(34:26):
eleven am on iHeart Radio or your podcasts. Shove that
up your ass. Let me do that one, but last part,
I'll did the whole thing. On the latest Mattenjery podcasts,
we ask for your four pillars of getting females to
the party, and we pay tribute to Sean Johnson who's
retiring from the NRL. Plus, we talked to Chuck Inwood
Inzied police legend, who's also got a mint Mo. The
(34:46):
metten Jury Podcast. Two new pods out every weekday at
eleven am on iHeart Radio or where ever you find
your podcasts. Hey, tell a friend, do.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
You know what? I'll probably take the first take and
then cut to the tell friend because the first take
was better, but the teller friends.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Look, I'm not going to get about it, mate.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
One one other point before we go, oh yeah, sorry, Matt,
Matt will hate this, isn't it I've got to get
rid of this congestion. Isn't it interesting? Interesting? Chuck Henwood,
that beautiful mustache, very Peter Plumley Walker.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
It is very Peter plummy Walker.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
It is one of the most infamous police and crime
cases in New Zealand history.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I don't want to raise one of the biggest questions
of the podcast or the podcast. Have we seen Peter
Plumley Walker and Chucking Wood in the same room.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
I know I haven't.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
I hope cho Kingwood don't listen back to this podcast.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
You'll be disgusted.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Choke Hinward, Chuckinwood, You're a greatly choke. That's what you've done. Okay,
we're gonna let this bespoke. I hope you enjoyed that.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Hello, I'm Matt Heath.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
You have been listening to the Matt and Jerry Daily
Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen to our Radio
Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Barred up about anyway.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Set to download, like, subscribe, writer, review all those great things.
It really helps myself and Jerry and to a lesser extent,
mess and Ruder. If you want to discuss anything raised
in this pod, check out the Conclave, a Matt and
Jerry Facebook discussion group. And while I'm plugging stuff, my
book A Life is Punishing Thirteen Ways to Love the
life You've got is out.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Now get it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Wherever you get your books, or just google the bastard.
Anyway you seem busy, I'll let you go.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Bless blessed, blessed. Give them a taste of key we
from me.
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