Life Happens

February 8th, 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
And good morning everyone. Welcome to Life Happens Radio. We
are here this morning to talk with a couple of
old friends and some familiar faces and names radio not
the faces. Well, well, longtime friends. Let's let's rephrase excuse
me your you must be talking. Let me rephrase that.
So we have today a discussion, and it's a very

(00:22):
relevant discussion. I hope you stay with us for the hour,
and I hope you join us every Saturday morning now
at nine o'clock. We're on at nine am, as opposed
to eleven, which was our old time, and we're very
happy to be here today.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Carry over from the last show.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
We had David kopekn with us a couple of weeks ago,
and we thought it was just a phenomenal discussion. So
we invited Dave back, and we invited one of our
old amigos to one of the three amigos from the
old days, mister Bob Vandy. Good morning, Bob, Good morning, Lewis,
and good morning Dave.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Good morning.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
You know I was thinking this morning. It's funny you
say that, I was thinking this morning. How long have
I known you guys? It's over thirty years.

Speaker 5 (01:01):
When he said old, he wasn't kidting. David.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
You're the only guy at Eddie that has an age.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Talk about how the hell you're doing it. That's why
I got my check is on my website.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, well, you.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Know, I didn't ask him yet, but he probably just
came from the gym I did to get here, and Dave,
that's how you do it.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, No, you're right, You're right.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
You get into the gym every morning, and uh boy,
you stay young a little bit. So we're here today,
folks to talk about financial planning and long term care
planning and they go hand in hand as we age.
As we like to say on the show, we talk
about aging and look at what the risks are as
we go through life. And we're lawyers at pier O'Connor

(01:42):
and Strauss. I practice law. I've been doing it forty
years and I've watched my clients struggle with the challenges
of care as we age long term care. How do
you protect your your nest egg? How do you protect
all the things that David and his crew were talking
about on the prior show. Building up that wealth, building
up those assets, that's good offense. Building your portfolio, your

(02:06):
four oh one, Kira, your outside investments, your annuities. But
then when it comes time that you need care. And folks,
if we live long enough, what are the.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
Odds bop Well, depends what statistic you look at, but
better than half. Let's put it that way.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
We'll need something and the care today, and we're going
to talk in detail about it, and we'll talk about
some cases that we've been working on, some things that
we've been doing.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
But the cost of care.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
If you want to go out and find somebody to
take care of your mom or yourself in your home,
you're going to pay something in the order of thirty
five to forty dollars an hour to get service. Right now,
do the math, folks, If you need eight hours a day,
ten hours a day, ten's a good when I can
do that math. But that's three hundred and fifty dollars

(02:52):
a day times three sixty five. We're talking about big numbers.
And if you need twenty four to seven care and
you need to pay it privately, it's over two hundred
fifty thousand dollars a year. Who is prepared for that,
who has built up enough income to pay two hundred

(03:13):
and fifty thousand dollars a year? And nursing home costs
are right about there, you know, seventeen eighteen thousand dollars
a month for a nursing home who has built up
their nest Egg and Bob, you are with advisors insurance brokers.
Talk a little bit about what you do and what
you've done and the career that you've had in helping
people plan for this.

Speaker 5 (03:32):
I appreciate it, Lou, and great to be back with you.
Good to be back in the studio, Dave. Good to
be on here with you. Yeah, we're we like you, Lou,
have been doing this a long time. The firm was
founded back in nineteen ninety one ninety two, and when
it was founded, it was actually founded as an insurance
broker's firm, meaning we have a ton of different insurance
carriers whose products that we make available to people like

(03:55):
Dave Kopek and insurance agents and financial advisors out there,
so when they're doing their financial planning for their clients,
they can take off the shelf the product that's the
most appropriate fit for that client situation. And we started
as specifically a long term care planning firm and a
long term care insurance brokerage firm.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Known as New York Long Term Care brokers. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
And in fact, our timing was good because that was
right around the time that that little thing called the
New York State Partnership for Long Term Care came out.
And I think you might want to talk about that
a week.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
We have a policy sitting in my hands here that's
a partnership policy, and we're going to talk about how
that worked. You can't buy it anymore, but if you
have one, we'll talk about how it's working now. But
more importantly, how the marketplace has evolved. But continue, Yeah, no,
no problem.

Speaker 5 (04:40):
Yeah, it's the market has, let's say, evolved, that's for sure.
And I say that with a smile on my face,
or at least a half smile. As things have progressed,
products have become more varied in terms of those that
fund the types of solutions that you were describing about. Hey,
how do I not only play offense with the type

(05:00):
the things that Dave and his firm do, but then
how do I play defense? I guess it's Super Bowl weekend.
We can use the air, why not? And when it
comes to playing defense, how do I have a pot
of money that I can tap into to offset at
least some of those costs that you were describing that
absent any planning could lead to some crisis. Work that
needs to be done that you do every day. We

(05:22):
want to make sure that people put themselves in the
best possible position they can.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
And David, this goes hand in glove with what you're
doing as a financial advisor because you have to look
at the clients not just today, but five, ten, twenty, thirty,
forty years from now. What is their financial future going
to look like? So you work with people like Bob
to make those coverages available. Just talk a little bit
about how that fits into the overall financial plan.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Well, it's probably the biggest turtle, Lou that we face
this financial advisors is when you bring the topic up,
it's almost like, you know, they start gagging at the
conference table. I mean they are really most people don't
even want to talk about it long interned care planning.
The ones that do talk about it typically the ones
that have had history that have it, you know, life experiences.
You know, like you say in your advertisement your promotion,

(06:08):
life happens. I happen to be a caregiver my wife
and I for six and a half years. I know,
that you were in the same situation. I believe with
your mom ye eight years. It's not a fun trip.
It's not a fun trip. And if you don't understand it,
you better understand it real quick because those numbers that
you just gave out are staggering when you've got to
start paying those bills and you and I and Bob. No,

(06:31):
most individuals are uninsured or don't have the capability of
paying those types of bills.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, when the client sits down and someone and it
doesn't happen, Oh, let's find a nursing home. A lot
of times it just gets thrust upon you. And in
the case that I'm going to mention, it's not even
a local nursing home. You go through the hospital, they
tell you that you have to discharge. They don't really
give you a discharge plan. They give you a list

(06:59):
of nursing homes.

Speaker 5 (07:00):
Pick one, and they're low discharging and saying, oh, by
the way, you can't go home, yes, because you can't
be on your own correct.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
So home is where everyone wants to be. We'll talk
about that and how to plan for that. But in
many cases it's we cannot discharge you home. It is
an unsafe discharge. There's no help in the home. You
can't find people to hire, and that's one of the
problems that we have in today's world. And we're going
to discharge you. And oh, by the way, to get
into that nursing home, you've got to give them a
full financial disclosure. You have to open up the kimono,

(07:32):
as we say, and show them everything you've got. And
your first check is going to be about thirty five
thousand dollars because that's one month plus a month of security.
And when the clients sit down and say I just
wrote a check for thirty five thousand dollars and I'm
gonna have to write checks every month for seventeen five
hundred dollars every month for the next how many years?

Speaker 2 (07:56):
That's painful. That is painful.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
And David, if you're not prepared for that, that aha moment.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Is not a happy one.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
No, it's a staggering It's a staggering amountain. I've seen people.
I've told you the last time I would throw it.
There was a lot of tiers at the conference table
for what was transpiring, what was going to happen. But
this is what I you know, you and I both
know and my Bobby understands this too. Your zip code
is extremely important where you're going to live in retirement
because certain states and certain counties have different rules and

(08:25):
regulations as far as assets that are protected from a
long term care. And you better know what that zip
code and that geographic location you're going to live in
and the type of services that are provided, because if
you don't, you could really be in a whole lot
of hurt.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
And we're going to talk a little bit about a
profession that has kind of grown up sprung up in there.
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
We've had an agency locally that I that I helped
start several years ago called ever Home Care Advisors. And
these are they used to be called geriatric care managers.
Now they're care called life care coordinators, but they help
people navigate in the neighborhood in which they lived there.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
So well, you know, I was going to ask.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
You real quick, and we got to go to a break.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
But the thing is is that with technology today lou
and cameras and all the gadgets and gizmos that are
currently out there, I would imagine that that's accelerating as
far as the protection that you can provide.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and that this group ever Home has
a product called Viva Links that we've been developing over
the years and it's kind of hitting the marketplace and
we're out in different places. You'll see it more and
more and more as care has to evolve because you
don't have the human hands with the number of hours
that are available to take care of people, so you
have to supplement that and improve and enhance the care

(09:41):
that can be given. And technology and AI, believe it
or not, are all playing in on this. But when
people start looking at Okay, I'm on a block that
has a city bus line, so I have a home
health agency that has aids that can take a city
bus to service me in my house, but I live
a mile from that and there is no bus line,

(10:02):
and that agency says, no, I cannot service your case.
It gets down to that granularity, block by block, house
by house, what's available. So having professionals come in and
bob the one benefit in a long term care insurance policy.
I just wanted to highlight they have a care coordination
benefit in most of those contracts and just talk a

(10:24):
little bit about that and how that works.

Speaker 5 (10:26):
Well. One of the things we're talking about, Lou is
the fact that when this comes up, we're in crisis mode.
You know a lot of times it is, you know,
mom is in the hospital and has just been told
that she's going to be discharged, but she can't go
home because she can't be on her own for any
number of either physical or emotional or cognitive reasons. So

(10:47):
you're in that crisis mode when the family then has
to step in. And I'm using this as an example
of course family has to step in. We don't intuitively
know what are the next steps. Where do I go
to find that proper caregiver to help mom out? And
so the care Coordination benefit is intended to help with
exactly that. Okay, I've got this policy and it's going

(11:09):
to pay X amount of dollars per day or per
month to help offset the financial part of what we
were talking about. But that's all well and good. Where
do I go? I don't know what home care agency
to call. So the care Coordination benefit is there to
help guide them and give them a resource to help
point them in the right direction to find appropriate care.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
And that's one of the things that ever Home provides,
and there are other agencies that provide that.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
But the good thing about it and these policies.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
We'll talk a little bit about long term care insurance
now because it's on the table. They have something called
an elimination period and which explain, explain, explain it to me.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Bobby, Yeah, how does that work?

Speaker 5 (11:46):
I don't know who thinks of these these terminology pieces
that we put in policies. The way that I liken
it to a deductible, it's essentially a deductible. Think about
your homeowner's insurance, where Okay, my homeowners insurance is going
to kick in after I pay X five hundre dollars,
thousand dollars whatever You're deductible on your homeowners insurance might
be x percent of your value of your home more

(12:06):
often here lately, So it's really like that. It's how
much do once I've triggered benefits, once I've I've met
the qualification guideline for that long term care insurance policy.
Typically it's thirty or ninety days or the most common
Sometimes you'll see one hundred days, sometimes you'll see twenty days.
Those are the most common ones, and that's the number

(12:26):
of days that typically I have to pay out a
pocket before the policy will start kicking in. And there
are two variances there. There's there's one called a calendar
day elimination period. It just gets better, I know, it's
so exciting. And then there's a service day elimination period. Now,
the service day is the one where I actually have
to pay out of pocket and substantiate to the insurance

(12:48):
carrier that I've.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Paid that number qualified expense.

Speaker 5 (12:51):
Qualified expenses for the thirty days or the ninety days,
and every day that I pay that I write a
check is one tick mark that reduces that ninety down
to zero.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
And you can't pay cash now, which a lot of
people do. They've hired a aid and they bring them
in and they're paying them cash under the table, and
the person doesn't want to go on the books. So
now what do you do?

Speaker 5 (13:11):
Yeah, that's I mean, they you have to have standardization
obviously in these types of contracts. So yeah, it has
to be generally speaking, and their different policies have different wording,
but it typically has to be somebody who is working
within a home agency environment, home care agency environment. Some
policies will allow some flexibility there, you know, without digging
into the weeds too much. But the other type of

(13:32):
elimination period, which is actually better is calendar day elimination period.
And that simply means that I don't necessarily have to
write a check for every day once I've met the
qualification guidelines. The calendar, the big red X is on
the calendar start and every day that goes by from
that date that I've substantiated that I meet the criteria,
they put the big red X on the calendar.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
So it brings up an interesting point, and that is
that this is a sixty page contract and it takes
a lawyer to read the contract and to parse out
the terms because as you said, there's no standardization in
some of this, and you have to really read what
that contract requires and what it provides. In a good
combination of an elder law attorney and a care coordinator

(14:18):
can put this to work for you and get these
benefits started because people struggle.

Speaker 5 (14:22):
Yeah. Well, and the other part of it, and I
think you may talk about this with the case that
we were talking about before we came on air, is
sometimes people have a reluctance to actually get the clock going.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
They absolutely they don't want to want Bobby.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's and that's a good one to break on because
I want to jump back into the end of that,
and we're going to take a short break and come back.
I have David Kopeck, Bob Vandy. I'm Lou Piro. This
is a discussion you don't want to miss if you're
thinking about long term care. We're going to talk about
the marketplace today life insurance products that cover long term care,

(14:56):
and all the creative things that you can do in
your financial place, in your legal plan, with your insurance plan.
Where life happens Radio every Saturday morning, nine am on
WGY will be right back.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
We're back.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
So we're talking about long term care, long term care
insurance insurance and having a policy that covers this risk
ninety days, which is a very common elimination period. And
if you're paying two three hundred dollars a day, you're
on the hook for ninety days, So be prepared to
pay that out of pocket before you get to your policy.

(15:40):
But you mentioned it, Bob. People have these contracts that
they've been paying on for ten, twenty, thirty, forty years,
and now they have an issue. Someone's just gotten a diagnosis,
they need home health care, they need help bathing, dressing,
you know all the things that the activities of daily living,
and they say, well, you know, I'm not going to
file my claim yet, going to hunker down and pay

(16:01):
it privately because I might need.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
The policy later. Just talk a little bit about that nonsense.

Speaker 5 (16:06):
Well, it's it's kind of human nature, is what it
boils down to, Lou. But it's it's not what you
want to do. Once you have determined through typically through
your health care provider, your doctor, a nurse, a nurse practitioner,
medical social worker. Once you've determined that it looks like
you probably do qualify for benefits, start the clock. Start

(16:27):
the clock, get it going. In fact, even if you're
not necessarily paying out a pocket right now for care,
you kind of want to make the insurance company aware
of it. Better to have it and not need it
than need it and not have it. Now you were
describing earlier, Lou, the situation where you know what happens
to go into the nursing home, for example, I'm there

(16:47):
for X number of years. Statistically speaking, more often than not,
I'm not going to be in the nursing home for
five or ten years. Statistically speaking, care either in a
home environment or in a nursing home environment. It's two
and a half to three years. But that's the average.
You never know what side of average you're going to

(17:08):
be on, right, So let's say that I am average
and I do need care for two and a half years,
but I waited to get my policy going. You don't
want to do that. You never know what the future
is going to hold, So you want to get the
clock ticking and put the insurance company on notice and
be ready to take the benefit from the policy even

(17:28):
if you feel like maybe you don't quote unquote need
it today.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, one more question on that, and then I want
to turn to Dave because you sound like you have
some experience here too. David, when you're on homecare and
you don't need the full homecare benefit, let's say have
three hundred dollars a day of home care benefit. You
only need one hundred dollars a day. What happens to
the other two hundred stays in the pot of money. Typically, now,
it depends on the type of policy you have. There's

(17:52):
two different ways that the policies will pay benefits. One
is called reimbursement, and as the name indicates, it would
reimburse me in your example, lou, it would reimburse me
that hundred bucks a day, but the other, if policy
benefit is two hundred and fifty, the other one hundred
and fifty doesn't evaporate. It stays in my policy to
potentially be used later on.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
So you stretch it.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
You stretch it, and it's more than three years or
six years or whatever the benefit is, it could last
ten years.

Speaker 5 (18:17):
Correct now. The other type is called indemnity or cash indemnity.
I like and love and in that instance, no matter
what you're paying out of pocket, whatever your daily or
monthly benefit is, that's what gets paid. And if it's
more than what your actual cost of care is, you
can do whatever you want with the difference.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
And Dave, when you got excess cash flow coming in,
what do you do with it?

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Well? I usually try to have some fun.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, in this case you might be limited.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
But if you have money coming in on an indemnity
contract and you have three hundred dollars a day coming in,
you only need two hundred, you bank the other one
hundred and you set it aside, and it's cash. Yeah,
it's your money to use however you want to use it.
So indemnity contracts are absolutely the way to go when
you're buying. If you have the choice, shop for an
indemnity contract. But David, this this human nature, this tendency

(19:07):
to want to just keep that policy in your pocket
and not use it.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
It is I think.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
I think Louis really boils down to a couple of things.
I think, uh, fear and anxiety and acceptance of this
is where I am at the stage of my life
and a lot of people don't like to think that
things are not as good as it used to be.

(19:32):
And you look in the mirror and you start saying
to yourself, is that you know, is the grim Reaper
going to show up around the corner in a very
short period of time? I mean for me, for me personally,
because I've dealt with this with so many people. I've
been doing it for so long, pre impulsted retail. I
think it basically typic typically and symbolizes an impending death.
Uh that you know, I'm on my way out the door,

(19:54):
and that's powerful, and I think people are fearful of that,
and they're going to stretch it as long as they
can to basically say, you know what, I don't need
it because I'm going to get better. I don't need it,
because I'm not as bad as you think I am.
Because I've seen it. I can't tell you how many
times I've seen this.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, I have the classic case.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
A woman came into my office with her mom and
the mom's in a wheelchair, and they came in for
a legal consultation and I started talking to them about
asset protection, trust and setting assets aside and getting mom
on Medicaid and getting home care. And she said, and
we've been considering canceling this insurance contract. I said, what
insurance contract? This is like an hour into the console.

(20:34):
What insurance contract would that be? And she pulls out
a New York State partnership policy that mom had been
paying on for thirty years. And they were saying, well,
she can't afford the premiums anymore, so we're going to
just let the contract lapse. And I said, okay, so
here are the six things you told me mom can't do.
She's eligible for a benefit on that policy. And what

(20:56):
happens when you file a claim for benefits bob to
your premium.

Speaker 5 (20:59):
The premiums go away. There's a waiver of premium benefit
in almost every long term care insurance contract that says
if you're on claimed, you don't have to pay premium.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
So here's someone with mom in a wheelchair thinking this
contract isn't worse.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Bobby, Can I interact and interject something, Yeah, I want to.
I apologize for doing over you. I don't know if
that's true or not, because my understanding is that if
you're getting home care, the premium stops if you're going
into a facility with some of the policies, but if
you're receiving home care, the premium doesn't stop.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
Again, it depends on the policy, Dave. Most policies will
waive it if you're receiving care, but there could be
policies that, depending on the type of care you're receiving it,
there might be a distinction.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
The ones I've seen Partnership policies waive the premium as
soon as the claim goes in, so people in that situation,
I'm going to just not pay the premium and I'm
not going to file the claim. Now the claims for
us is Bob, is no picnic.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
No no it h And where the part of the
challenge comes in is and this is where it gets
to the contract language right. There has been some standardization loose,
especially since ninety six and Hippop came out, But it's
still a contract and it's still not a picnic to
read through the thing, and it can be very confusing,
there's no question about it. But that standardization is there

(22:20):
such that if you meet the criteria. The challenge that
we have is that we see it as mom needs help.
Mom needs help, so I should be able to tap
into this long term care policy, but you do. There
are specific requirements. Generally speaking, part of that standardization is
I have to be unable to perform at least two
of those ADLs activities of daily living the bathing, eating, dressing, toileting, transferring,

(22:44):
and continents, or I have a cognitive impairment, so maybe
I've got early on set Alzheimer's, or maybe I just
have Alzheimer's. The trigger there is do I represent a
danger to myself for others? And the analogy that I
often use is it's one thing if I put the
keys in the freezer and I forget they're in there.
It's another thing if I forget the pot of boiling
water on the stove. That's a problem. The keys in

(23:07):
the freezer contrary to what we may think, not.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
So much a problem. How did that last?

Speaker 5 (23:12):
Well, you know, they let me just tell you. Your
keys are in the freezer day you came in and
you needed to make that drink. Really really, that's right
there they are. You just threwrab the ice cubes. So
the point there is, yeah, the contract language is important,
and you got to make sure that you meet that qualification.
And and as part of the claims process, that's where

(23:32):
a lot of the the frustration comes from sometimes loop.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
And that's where care coordinators are so valuable because they
know how to read the contract, they know how to
talk to your doctor, assemble all of your medical records.
And in many of the policies, you need a written
plan of care for home most of them to get
the benefits, and and a qualified professional. And the people
in these companies like ever Home are physical therapists, occupational therapists,
are ins masters, and social work they're licensed professionals who

(23:58):
can write that plan of care and help you collect
your benefit. So those are the things that people think
about when they have policies. We're gonna come back after
the break and talk about what you should be looking
for today. If you want to protect that nest egg.
If you're building for a retirement and you want to
play a little bit of defense, you could hire Steve
Spagnola and try to stop Zax's eagles, or.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
You can.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
You can hire somebody to look at the right insurance
product like Dave Bob and look at putting in place
protection for you and your family. We'll talk about it
when we come back after the news.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
And we are back. Welcome.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Life Happens Radio every Saturday morning at nine am, brought
to you by Pier O'Connor and Strauss, and I just
want to give the law firm a little plug here.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Some educational events they are coming up real soon.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Monday and Tuesday of this coming week, we do something
called Medicaid Mondays and it has become a very well followed,
let's say, educational event. It's a thirty minute webinar every
second Monday of the month. Frank Heming, our Medicaid partner,
chairs that group and I do it with him, and
Aaron Connor does it with him, and we bring in guests.

(25:22):
All of the issues that you have to deal with
in Medicaid are covered one at a time for thirty
minutes on a very intense basis. So we're looking this
Monday coming up February tenth, at twelve noon at.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Solo Seniors, what happens.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
You know, we deal a lot with married couples and
you have one spouse as a caregiver and one spouse not.
But there are people out there that don't have anybody
close by that need to bring people in to help,
just serve as power of attorney service, healthcare agent, service trustee.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
How do they bring.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
A plan together when they don't have the family that
is in many other people's plans. So there's a whole
group social networks now of solo Seniors. They all different
names for the groups. One name that I don't terribly
like Elder Orphans. They called himself that I think somewhat satirically.

(26:18):
But it's important to think about how to plan when
you're alone, when you're on your own, how do you
make sure you have the structure in place legally financially
to plan. So twelve noon, Frank Heming myself will be
tearing these issues apart and putting them back together again
for you in thirty minutes. You can sign up at
any time on pyrolaw dot com go to the events

(26:39):
tab or you can call the office five eight four
or five nine twenty one hundred and on Tuesday February eleventh,
we have our quarterly Trust Administration Workshop. So this is
the inner workings of a trust, opening up the hood,
seeing how it all works. And that is twelve to
one thirty on Tuesday, February eleventh.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
I hope you can join us.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's at Trustco Bank Center that's at sixth Metro Park Road,
right off Wolf Road, and you can sign up again
purolaw dot com Events four one hundred if you want
to call.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Trust Administration Workshop.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
If you have a trust and you're struggling with tax
returns and accountings and all the things that need to
be done, or you're thinking about a trust and you
want to know how much work it's actually going to be.
This is the program for you. Ninety minutes, very intense.
It's myself in Gretchen Gunther, who's a CPA with teil
Becker and Schirmante former professor and practicing accountant, so she's
very good at teaching all the tax aspects of trust.

(27:36):
So join us Tuesday, twelve to one thirty for the
Trust Administration workshop Monday at noon for the Medicaid Monday Workshop.
Thanks and back to our conversation here Bob Vandy of
Advisors Insurance Brokers and David Kopeck. Dave, you do this show,
your show two hours and then another hour and here

(27:59):
you are again with us. Thank you for joining us.
I do appreciate you sticking around and your perspectives are
really good because you've been doing this a while and
you're on the financial planning side. When people have come
to you and say, oh, I'm you know, I want
to make sure I get the best market returns.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Great, that's all good.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
I want to have the best financial products. I want
to pay the least amount of tax possible. Great, we
can work on an investment plan that has tax deferral.
And do they ever come to you and say, oh,
I'm really worried about if I go to a nursing home.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Does that come up in your world?

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Very rare?

Speaker 4 (28:33):
A handful a handful of And it's like I said
at the beginning of the show, it's typically people that
have had an event in their life or there's smoke
in the basement. They're looking for a policy because they
know that there's trouble coming down the road. Yeah, Bob
knows this, and you know this also. You know there's
been an event that has happened, a diagnosis, and they

(28:55):
know that they're going to need some care. But I
think Bob understands this, and you understand that. You know,
the long term care policy product has changed so dramatically
in just the last ten years. We Bob worked on
a case I'll just go through this real quick where
we had a guy that had four hundred thousand dollars
in an annuity that was specifically set up.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
For long term care.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
I went to Bob and Melissa at the Advisor Insurance Group.
We developed a plan with this product called care Matters,
and he ended up walking out the door by just
repositioning the assets to a product that gave him one
point two million dollars from day one, dollar one all
the way up to one point six million as he ages.
And it's for two people, for two people, and the

(29:40):
only thing that he had to do is some basic
underwriting and transfer of assets and he's got long term
coverage that started at four hundred and within a few
months it ended up being one point two million dollars
and it covers not only himself but his wife. And
guess what the greatest part of this is, Bobby knows
it's cash monthly cash benefit.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
And we have the leading expert here on the line
with us, David, and that's mister Bob Vandy. So, Bob,
this marketplace, as we said, I gave it a very
generous term, has evolved. The long term care insurance itself,
I would probably put in the disintegrated column. There used
to be twenty companies in New York.

Speaker 5 (30:23):
In New York we I think we topped out at
about twelve or thirteen, but still a lot, a lot
fuller than it is today. We've basically got one carrier
down to one in the brokerage space. And then there
are a couple of career companies, career life insurance companies
that have a product that's not available in the brokerage space.
You have to go to that company to get it right.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
And I can mention those Northwestern Mutual New York Life Correct,
I think are the two that are left correct. Mass
Mutual has dropped there, They've dropped here in New York.

Speaker 5 (30:51):
Yep in the brokerage company that the good news is
the brokerage company that's still active in New York and
throughout the country is Mutual of Omaha. So a mutual company,
which mean it's owned by the policyholders. They do a
great TV show, Wild Kingdom used to that still on it,
it's still on. Is it actually had a resurgence? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (31:08):
I believe you guys, agent? Are you guys? Agent?

Speaker 5 (31:12):
What do you mean you guys?

Speaker 2 (31:15):
As Jim wrestles the Wild I'll.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
Wait here but camera. But it's kidding aside. They're they're
a good conservative, Midwest mutual company. So if we're gonna
have one company, that's a great company to have. But
as Dave refers to, and uh, the evolution that you
refer to, Lou, is that more and more we're seeing
products that tied together, typically life insurance and long term

(31:39):
care together, and that that in fact, I know what
Dave is talking about. Unfortunately, that specific product he's alluding
to is not yet available in the state of New York.
They're trying to get it approved, which is a challenge
in itself.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
That's a disclaimer. These people were in floridab.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah about talk a little bit about that for our
for our listeners, New York is a hard place to
do business for a lot of things, but specially insurance products.

Speaker 5 (32:01):
It is the DFS, the Department of Financial Services in
New York is very very, very very did I mention
very consumer protective, which is a good thing, but from
a doing business standpoint, it's very challenging for insurers. We
often refer to it as kind of a forty nine
and one environment. There are a lot of products like
the one that Dave is referring to, where I can

(32:23):
get it in forty nine other states, but for some reason,
the state of New York has an issue with it.
And the sword that they fall on anytime we have
conversation with them is that they're protecting consumers, which we're
all for. But you can't tell me that a product
is great for forty nine of the fifty states. And
there's just something about New York that makes it so
unique that it just seems to get bogged down in

(32:45):
the process, and.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
People play this a little loose.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think some agents, Oh, if you meet me in
my Massachusetts office, I can sell you the Massachusetts product.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
How do those rules work? And how close to the
line I know you comfortable?

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Well?

Speaker 5 (33:01):
Were we don't get comfortable with that. I mean, you
got to make sure that you're doing things properly. And
there are some agency or advisors. Every once in a while,
somebody will say, well, can't we meet at the diner
across the border in Massachusetts or Vermont or New Jersey
or wherever it might be. And most of the carriers
have really tightened the screws on that type of behavior.

(33:22):
There's if there is a legitimate business purpose. For example,
if you have a second residence, like if I'm a
New York resident, but I have a home in Florida.
Right there are most companies, depending on the product, will
allow you to as long as everything takes place in Florida,
the application is taken in Florida, the policy is delivered
in Florida, you should be able to get the Florida
product with some exceptions.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, So those protections in New York are very valuable.
The partnership was one of the most protected policies in
the market. It had consumer protections everywhere in that partnership contract. So, folks,
if you have a partnership policy, do not let it lapse.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
That's gold.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Do not let it lapse is like gold appreciating and
a what percentage David eighty some percent over.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
The last years.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
It's the thing though, with the partnership, and I think,
you know, I have my own personal opinion on this,
and it might be different from you and Bob. I
think they failed as New York State because I never
thought that it would dissipate and go away and there
wouldn't be any more partnership programs available. I think it
was something that New York State and the insurance company
should have found some kind of a remedy in order

(34:29):
to continue because it had so much benefit for the
people that needed those types of policies.

Speaker 5 (34:34):
Yeah, you're not going to get any argument with me
on that one. Me either, We're like minded on that.
Then again, this a lot of this has to do
with with the Department of Financial Services and the interaction
between it and the Department of Health where the Medicaid
folks are located, and the seeming lack of synergy, if
that's the right way to put it. But I agree with.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
You and what happened I think partly for New York
is all the other things in long term care interest rates,
in the inability to invest in other types of assets
that they couldn't earn enough money on their reserves. But
in New York they had so many protections on these policies,
minimum dollar values, minimum inflation protections. Five percent was the
initial requirement in the partnership. And you can't buy five

(35:17):
percent in most places anymore because it just doesn't reflect
market realities. And those contracts became so expensive and they
couldn't be changed. Yeah, so the carriers had you know,
I don't blame the carriers for this, because there was
no meeting of the minds. There was no Okay, let's
modify it, let's let's bend it to shape the current marketplace.

Speaker 5 (35:38):
Well, you're right, and the carriers wanted to have that flexibility,
there's no question. In fact, I served on a what
was called the Medicaid Redesign Team or the Partnership Redesign team.
We had a couple of meetings down in Albany to
talk about this very issue of are we just too restrictive.
It took a long time to get an additional inflation

(35:59):
option down to three and a half percent, which became
very very popular for good reason.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Loop breaks a cost. Now, the inflation writer was a
third of the big meal.

Speaker 5 (36:08):
It was a big deal.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
You know, Bobby.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
But even if they just did the dollar for dollar yeap,
you know, which you could probably get into more detail
than I can. I mean, that made all the sense
in the world too. Buy a pool of money. At least,
you know, you got some protection. It might not be
the full, but at least you got a band aid
for something that could possibly come down.

Speaker 5 (36:25):
The road without question. And I suppose we could bat
it back and forth what we don't have. I think
for our listeners, the key is, you know, well, that's
all well and good, but I don't have a partnership policy.
So what do I do? Does that mean I don't
do anything because the partnership is virtually non existent at
this point, And I think the main takeaway is no,
you still have options.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
So I'm going to the problem.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
The problem is, and I'll just say this real quickly,
The problem is is that most financial advisors, and this
is in general terms, do not really care about long
term care coverage. Okay, they they manage money, Okay. I
used to get a lot of chuckles from guys that
I worked with Dean Winter that I was now out.
You know what, do you got a leisure suit and
a white belt? And a white pair of shoes, and

(37:05):
you're outselling insurance.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Now some insurance, baby, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Right exactly.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
But Dan Bouchard and Kevin Johnson and Bob Vandy and
that whole team that was at New York Long Term
Care Brokers at the time educated me how important it
was to have this type of protection. Then I lived
it for six and a half years. Then I lived
it for six and a half years and out Now
I'm a disciple, and.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
You got religion, I got and anybody that's a caregiver
and goes through this and is facing all of these
oh my god, what do I do? Mom's in the hospital.
We have to discharge it. Now, we got to talk
to the nursing home. Now, we got to fill out
the financial affidavit. You're just in a in a current
that's taking you over the waterfalls, and you just have
nothing to latch onto these policies. Okay, I can get

(37:47):
a care coordinator. I can have a benefit, and there's
no waiting period for that. There's no elimination period. The
care coordination is available immediately. So you've got a benefit
for you know, maybe two three thousand dollars in your
policy to'll go out and high are one of these
folks to help you put the care plan together. You
don't even have to pay it out of pocket. It's
in your policy. And so that's a benefit that my

(38:07):
clients are going to be using, is the care coordination
benefit because it's free. It's money in your contract that
you can just tap and get professional guidance through this
whole process. One thing that comes up bub and I'm
probably the last partnership issue.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
You got unlimited asset protection.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
In this partnership, but if you moved across the border,
you don't so and people think, well, I don't have
if I move, I don't have any coverage. But how
does that work? They do have some they do, and
actually Dave alluded to it. There are Before things kind
of went away. As it relates to the partnership, you
had two types of asset protection in the policies that

(38:46):
were being offered. Originally it was all total asset protection,
meaning I use up the benefits in my policy, I
could then apply for what's known as Medicaid extended coverage
and all of my assets would be protected. I wouldn't
have to spend down any.

Speaker 5 (38:59):
Of them assets. And then as part of the evolution
we talked about, there was the possibility of buying a
what's known as a dollar for dollar asset protection policy,
which is Dave alluded to. It didn't give me full
asset protection, but I had an amount of asset protection
equivalent to whatever my policy paid. So if my policy

(39:20):
paid out three hundred thousand dollars of benefits over the
lifetime and then the policy ended because it ran out
of benefit, I could then apply for Medicaid extended coverage
and I would only need to spend down my assets
in excess of that three hundred thousand dollars. So both
were good. Total was much better, obviously, but both were good.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, in my case, there's a five hundred thousand dollars
pool of money, yep, three years of nursing home coverage,
six years of home healthcare coverage, but the total pool
is five hundred thousand dollars. So in this case, you know,
children are not local, so if something happens and mom
needs to move to another state, then you have to
have that five hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
That is your asset protection.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
Benefit, correct, And that's the ability is what we're talking
about here, which didn't exist before. I don't remember the year.
I'm gonna I would mess up the year. But the
portability basically said that, Okay, you take your total asset
protection policy in New York and you moved to let's say, Florida.
Florida allows dollar for dollar asset protection. So what the
portability states like Florida said was, Okay, New Yorker, come

(40:20):
to Florida. You can use your policy benefits anywhere in
the country and sometimes even internationally. You can use your
policy benefits anywhere in the country, and if you exhaust
the benefits, you can apply for Medicaid extended coverage. But
even though you can't get the total asset protection like
your policy said, because you're no longer a New York resident,
you can at least get the dollar for dollar asset
protection that Florida provides as part of the portability.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
So in the long term care world, you had the
partnership with asset protection, but you didn't need to buy
that partnership policy. And I did seminars with New York
long term care brokers for years and years, and we
did them together. Here's the legal side of the plan.
Here's the financial side of the plan. Insurance size, and
when you put the two together, you get partnership because

(41:06):
we do a trust called the Medicaid Asset Protection Trust
that takes the assets off the table, just like a
partnership policy would. And the reason I like that was
because all partnership policies are reimbursement. We like the indemnity contract.
So we would counsel our clients to buy an indemnity
policy where you get cash and you can apply that cash.

(41:27):
You don't have to go through all the hoops every
month justifying the hours of care and the certification of
the provider. You get cash, you can buy whatever is
available to you in your local market, in your home,
and at the same time you can do the asset
protection planning and get the Medicaid backup for that. So
you get the insurance contract upfront with cash, and you

(41:47):
get Medicaid on the back end with the Medicaid Asset
Protection Trust. To me, that was better than the partnership.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
Yeah, it was a round two or version two if
you will, two point zero. I guess you could call
it partnership two point zero. And you're right. And and
it's interesting, Dave, like you're mentioning with the financial advisors.
I would say that a lot of times they're not
comfortable with it. I mean, if they're focusing on asset
management or investment management, or maybe they're even holding themselves

(42:16):
out as being a financial planner, so to speak. It
always surprises me that the insurance seems to take that
back seat, because I don't know how you can project
that you're a financial planner and you're developing financial plans
for people and not have the protection component to it.
That's a big part what we're talking about.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
I'm going to tell you something and I've had you
on my show before. It turns my stomach when I
hear financial advisors talk about the only reason that Bob
Vandy is recommending an insurance product is because of the
big fact commission that you're making.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
It turns. It turns my stomach.

Speaker 5 (42:50):
YEP, I get it. I get it. That's another show
and then we could we could rip that one up too.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (42:56):
I agree with you.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
And my line because I have a lot of people
call me up or come up to me at the
seminar and say, well, I don't believe in in life insurance.
I said, it's not a religion, it's a financial product.
And if you can replace that death benefit by saving
during your lifetime, and if you die next year, how
are you going to save enough to put that money
back in where your family needs it. It's a financial

(43:17):
product that has so many uses, and now it's being
used more for income tax planning where you have accumulation policies.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
It's a tool loo in the toolbox. It is it
and that's all it is.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
And if you want to use that tool, great, If
you don't, let's move on to the you know, the
other tool. It's simply you know, there is a gentleman
that Bob and I both knew, and he says, I
don't care what you call it. You can call it
bag of apples, or you can call it insurance. Whatever
it is, it's going to solve the problem. Do you
want me to call it bag of apples? And does
that make you feel moreble?

Speaker 5 (43:46):
That's perfect point.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
We're going to take another short break, this last one.
We're going to come back round out the discussion and
talk about some of these products that are out there,
how to integrate them into your financial plan, how to
put that long term care right on, and what that
really costs.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Does it had a lot to.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
The premium and we'll be back right after this short break.
All right, I guess we call this Super Bowl Saturday.
You'll get your predictions before we close out here. You know,
the Chiefs and the Eagles probably the everybody thought Detroit

(44:22):
was going to be the team this year, but Washington
took them down.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
The Eagles took Washington down hard. And the Eagles look good.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Man that offensive line with Sequon behind it, my former Giant,
but they look good. Kansas City just seems to have
the magic and the way to win. What's your prediction, Bob?

Speaker 5 (44:40):
My prediction is, let's go to Zach. I know Zach's prediction.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Boy.

Speaker 5 (44:49):
I feel like it might be Philadelphia's year. I think that.
I think things are lining up for them. You're right,
I mean I frankly, I didn't think Kansas City would
get this far. I really didn't. And there are some
Bills fans out there that would probably say they shouldn't
have gotten this far. But I like Philly A tight game. Well,

(45:11):
I think what was the spread point in a half
last time I saw it? I like Philly, David, what's
your team?

Speaker 3 (45:16):
I'm with Bobby. I think Philadelphia.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
I think, say Kwon Barkley is the missing piece that
they haven't had.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
A guy.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
He's got all sorts of records rushing. If he has
just a fraction of the game that he's possible happening,
he's I think he's going to be the difference in
the game.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, both teams play at a very high level. The
thing that has impressed me over the last six years,
and they're in their fifth Super Bowl in six years.
They've won the last two, so they would be three peating.
Andy Reid is a freaking genius. I mean, he puts
a team on the field and he has plays coming
out of the playbook that you haven't seen in fifty years.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
And he's able to execute.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Those plays in key situations and just get that first
down or get that touchdown when they eat it.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
You have my homes in the pocket.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
But the guy that I think is going to make
a difference, we'll see if he can game plan this
for for Philly is the defensive coordinator and I've been
following him since he was the Giants defensive coordinator, Steve Spagnolo.
So I'm going Chiefs in a last minute field goal.

Speaker 5 (46:17):
And we and we met that guy. If you remember correct, Yes,
Zach Harrison.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Zach didn't his mike, didn't his microphone just go up?

Speaker 5 (46:25):
I think it's I think.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
If I were you, Lou, I wouldn't buy walk by
his door to the studio.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
I went to school in down near Philadelphia, and all
my friends and all my friends from Lee higher down there,
and I'm on the text chain with him, and it's
a frenzy and and I just pop in every now
and then and throw something, throw Bob a grenade in there.
So it's fun. But let's get back and talk about
the current marketplace. And Dave, you you have a financial advisor.
I know you work with Bob. What are the products

(46:56):
that you're looking at for your clients that that are
really attractive right now?

Speaker 4 (47:00):
I think the only ones that Bobby and I probably
consistently is the Link Benefits. And I can't tell you
the last time I did a traditional policy because the
thing that you hear consistently, Lou, you know this, If
I don't use it, I lose it. With the Link Benefits,
there's a combination of life insurance and long term care.
You can add the velocity that you want. You work

(47:21):
with your team to draft the legal documents and the trust,
and you're in pretty good shape. Statistically, you're in pretty
good shape. So I'm in the camp that the link
Benefit is the secret sauce the long term care planning.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I'm with you one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
And you can sell that product at much, much, much
younger ages because people in their thirties need life insurance.
They have income replacement is a key use of life insurance.
And I worked with a company and Bob, you were
kind of involved in some of that.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
The Hertford.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I worked very closely with their home office when they
were developing and launching their product, which was the Link
Benefit product, and the actuaries were startling in terms of
the cost of that rider, which was deminimus next to
the life insurance cost. And we figured out a way
to hold that policy and trust, which.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
We still have. We call it the the a Parental
Protection Trust.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
And so just talk a little bit about that policy
and those policies, what's.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
On the market and what you're seeing.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned Hartford. They were the ones
that were first out of the gate way. Were that
pro indemnity, Yeah, with indemnity, that product is actually still around.
Hartford was actually purchased by Prudential. Yeah, and Prudential brought
that ride over. They call it the bar rider, the
benefit access rider, and it's basically that original Hartford policy
and rider where I can get a life insurance policy

(48:39):
at a very competitive cost that will last. The death
benefit will last for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Different types of life insurance. But this is like a
guaranteed universal life correct.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
Correct, it's I'm not buying it to build up cash
value insurance, yeah, permanent term insurance. I'm not looking for
cash value, which there are legitimate reasons for at times.
But this is all about the death benefit and the
long term care care benefit or in this case what
they call chronic illness benefit comes in the form of
me being able to accelerate that death benefit early. I
have a half a million dollar policy. That essentially means

(49:10):
I have a half a million dollar pool of money
that I can tap into if I have a chronic
illness and I want two percent a month still kind
of the standard one or two or four percent a month,
depending on the product.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
On the contract.

Speaker 5 (49:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're the one.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Hartford was two percent at the time, right, And so
that's ten grand a month cash yep.

Speaker 5 (49:27):
Tax free yep. And there are different versions. You can
dial it different ways. As Dave alluded to, and he's
referring to something a little different with the linked benefit products.
They don't build as much death benefit, but they have
a separate pool of money for the long term care benefit.
So both of those are pretty exciting.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
And Dave, we have a minute left. I'm going to
give you the last word.

Speaker 4 (49:47):
Well, I just think that, you know, I think that
this is great when three separate entities can come together
and talk about a topic that's probably on everybody's mind.
You know, I applaud that you do this because I
think it adds a lot of good information to your listeners.
And you know how much respect I have for Bob
Vandy and you, And I just think that hopefully people

(50:10):
this will motivate them to take action.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, so now we have forty seconds left, so we
kill it.

Speaker 5 (50:18):
Let me do this. Let me take ten of those seconds.
If you had, if any of our listeners had one takeaway,
get together with your financial advisor, get together with Dave,
do a review. Yeah, look at where you are now,
think about where you want to be. I agree with
Dave taking Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
And we offer a comprehensive consultation, and we look at
the reason I have this I'm holding this long term
care partnership policy is I ask for everything, and I
review everything, and I reviewed the contract with them at
the meeting to get them started. So, whether you started
on the financial planning side or you started on the
legal side, sooner or later, they have to come together.

(50:53):
And your financial advisor, your attorney, your accountant, all should
be working together for your best interest and we try
to bring that to you here every Saturday morning on
Life Happens Radio. Thanks for listening today. I hope you
can join us again next week. We will be back
with Super Bowl results. Fly eaglesly, there you go.