All About Debt

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
And our phone lines. They are open to you right
now if you've got a question for our retirement planning
professionals from Class Financial telephone number six oh eight three
two one thirteen ten. That's three two one thirteen ten.
Love to get you on the other this morning. Join
this week by CJ. Closs and Eric Schwartz. As mentioned,
they come to us from Class Financial the website classfinancial
dot com. That's Closs k l a A S Financial

(00:26):
dot com. Our telephon number six O eight four four
two five six three seven. No charge that initial get
to know the appointment at Class Financial. It will be
complimentary to you again their number six oh eight four
four two five six three seven. As mentioned, CJ and
Eric joining us this morning. CJ, how you doing this week?

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm doing great.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
How are you, Sean?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm doing really good. Great to talk with you and Eric?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
How have you been I have been I've been great.
I'm excited for our conversation this morning.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's gonna be a good one.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
We're gonna be talking about preparation of course for retirement
and kind of the game plan in debt and talk
about debt. So I'll get to that in just a moment.
A couple of things keep in mind as we do
the show. Don't forget. The phone lines are open. Love
to have you join us at six oh eight three
two one thirteen ten. I been to the website recently.
Head on over their Class Financial dot com. That's Coss

(01:14):
k l aas Financial dot com. Great resource to learn
more about the team at Coss Financially. You can learn
about the separate divisions. You can also sign up for
the weekly market paulse newsletter that available to you at
Clossfinancial dot com. Tell phone number six oh eight four
four two five six three seven no charge for that
ininitcial gets no you appointment at Class Financial. It will
be complementary to you. Don't forget. Also, you're going to

(01:35):
use that numb a little bit later on the program
with the class Quiz question the week your chance to
win a fantastic prize this week no exception, our friends
from Class Financially have provided a twenty five dollars gift
card to IHOP and we'll tell you a little bit
later on how you can win with the class quiz question.
Leak just a little tip though, Pay close attention to
the program because just about every show the question and
answer both come up during the program, and before we

(01:56):
get rolling on this week's topic, let's actually roll back,
take a look back at last week show and get
the question and answer there as well.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, so our question last week was true or false.
You may be eligible for a Social Security survivor benefit
as a spouse if you were married for at least
nine months before their death, and Patty from Oregon knew
that the correct answer was true.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Fantastic congratulations to Patty, and again you two can be
like Patty play close attention and pay close attention and
also pays to pay close attention to the program just
to win again later on the show a twenty five
dollars gift card to IHOP. So see Jay, let's talk.
So when you're helping folks prepare for retirement, I got
to guess debt is one of those big topics that

(02:40):
come up quite a bit. And you know, I think
people say, well, how do I get there? What's the
game plan? These are really important conversations, aren't they?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
It is?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I mean, when you when you do what we
do for a living, you come to realize that cash
flow management and kind of we'll call it financial behavior
patterns are really critical now. Unfortunately, a lot of these
financial behavior patterns get set at actually a very very
young age. So this could be the way that your
parents handled money. It could be an extreme experience of

(03:12):
poverty that you grew up with that has caused you
to be a huge saver. And truth be told, there's
strengths and weaknesses to all of these different shades of
the way that you handle cash flow management and saving
for the future. We've seen people who you know, maybe
we're children of the Great Depression, who have millions and
millions of dollars but won't spend a penny because they're

(03:33):
so fearful, and that's an extreme. But then we will
have other people who you know, grew up with parents
that never saved anything, and they just go, I don't know,
I heard you can love our social security, so I
just spend everything. So you get the idea, these are
these extremes that get set at an early age, and
so we just want to tell you, hey, while while
each approach can have strengths and weaknesses, we given what

(03:55):
we do for a living, we get to see some
behavior patterns that really work out out well and have
high probabilities of success over long periods of time. So
we're going to talk about that relative to debt today.
So that's one of these weird things that has a
way of sticking around and for many people can even
follow them into retirement. So you should know, in our view,

(04:16):
the best case scenario from what we see across thousands
of households that we've worked with, is that heading into
retirement debt free really is ideal. Now, some people go,
but what about the mortgage interest deduction, And I've heard
blah blah blah blah blah. Stop stop. We do this
for a living, right. If you don't, then just take

(04:37):
a pause. I'm not talking about, you know, tax management
or anything like that. I'm just saying from the overall approach,
heading into retirement, if possible, being debt free really does
give you the best leg up and give you freedom
and choice and opportunity and all of that. Now that's
not to say that you can't retire with debt. It's

(04:59):
just to say, if you're looking for the best option,
do your best to not have debt heading into retirement.
So of course people say, well, if if I'm not
there or if my plan isn't on par What do
I need to do to make some adjustments? So I'm
going to go through kind of four things here that
you can consider. Number One, set up a plan to
reduce and eliminate your debt. It starts with a plan.

(05:21):
If you don't want to take our word for it,
you can listen to Dave Ramsey. I think he actually
he might be syndicated on this station as well, if
not other stations. But Dave Ramsey's a big proponent of
eliminating debt to create financial freedom, and then it can
also create generosity in you. So set up a plan.
Number two, consider making some lifestyle changes. You might need

(05:44):
to tweak your spending habits and set some realistic goals.
A lot of folks find success by being aggressive with
debt payments first and then shifting to focus on saving
for the future. So we would and then finally we
would actually say set it on automatic. We have that
often people's desires don't match their cash flow, Like I
really do want to be generous, but I just can't

(06:06):
give right, Or I really do want to pay down
my debt, but I just don't have money to do
it with. And we would say, well, then your desires
aren't matching your behaviors, and so you need to you
need to make it automatic. So first of every month
you make your large mortgage payment. Number three would be
to pay down debt, potentially in lieu of additional retirement savings. Now,

(06:30):
one way where we might slightly differ from Dave Ramsey
is we really do like people getting their company match.
But I'll be frank with you, I don't want to
argue Dave on Thus, I see his point, which is like,
you've got to have a ruthless attitude about debt at times,
I mean ruthless, like I just gotta get rid of it.
And if that means you don't save into the four

(06:52):
oh one K for a little bit just to get
the debt paid off before you retire, we would say again,
heading into retirement without debt is the best option. Now again,
talk to a professional advisor, talk to your accountant, make
sure that it makes sense across your overall financial picture.
But generally speaking, given that we are retirement planners, I
can tell you those of our clients that don't have

(07:14):
debt and retirement tend to have a lot less stress
and live a lot more free and are a lot
more generous with their kids and grandkids than those that
have a mortgage. And then finally there's an option just
to work a little bit longer. So we have plenty
of clients who do this where they maybe got remarried
later on in life, got a home with that new spouse,
ended up with a mortgage, and worked, you know, instead
of sixty five to sixty seven or sixty eight, just

(07:36):
to make sure that they haven't had enough time to
get that mortgage eliminated. So there's kind of four practical
things you can do to try to eliminate debt before
you retire.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Talking this morning with our retirement planning professionals from Class Financial, CJ.
Closs and Eric Schwartz. You can learn more Onlineclossfinancial dot com.
That's Coss Klaas Financial dot com. Great website and resource
to learn more about Class. Also sign up for the
Week the Market Paul's newsletter. Of course, I know in
the mornings, we all know this. Sometimes step out of
the car, maybe you're grabbing grabbing coffee, dropping the kiddo's

(08:06):
off or the grand kids off at school. You miss
part of the program. You can always listen back at
Clossfinancial dot com. That's class klaas financial dot com. They're
telephone number six, so eight four four two five six
three seven, So Eric, that's obviously a lot to consider
that CJ laid out there. How much debt are right
retirees actually carrying these days?

Speaker 2 (08:28):
That's a great question, and the short answer is probably
a lot more than you might think, especially when we
start thinking about not only mortgages, but student loans, car loans,
credit cards. Seems like you can kind of borrow for
any purchase these days, even even one hundred dollars purchase online.
You can say I'll pay that over four months. But

(08:48):
the Federal Reserve Bank Front of New York reported that
US household debt hit a record seventeen point ninety four
trillion dollars in the third quarter of last year. That's
a point eight percent sent from the previous quarter, and
mortgage debt alone was twelve point five to nine trillion dollars.
Data from credit Karma, which this is from April to

(09:10):
June of last year, shows that baby boomers specifically, who
are either retired at this point or close to it,
they carry an average auto loan debt of twenty three
thousand dollars, a credit card debt of over eight thousand,
and mortgage debt of about one hundred and ninety seven thousand,
seven hundred and ninety five dollars. They also this surprising me, actually,

(09:34):
they also have an average of forty five one hundred
and one dollars in student loan debt. Again as they
approach retirement here in the near future.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Doug this morning with c J. Klass and Eric Schwartz
out retirement planning professionals from Klass Financial and as we
kind of break through this, it's pretty eye opening there,
and we Eric, when we kind of look at this stuff,
what are some strategies to avoid then to to not
be adding more debt?

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, like CJ was saying that debt tends to be
something that I'll stick around for a while. And the problem,
especially in a higher interest rate environment like we've seen
over the last couple of years compared to you know,
the previous ten or fifteen years, it tends to accumulate
over time even if you're not adding to it. But

(10:20):
in terms of practical tips to kind of address some
of this, the first and I think simplest is stop
adding to your debt. So leave those credit cards at home.
Avoid this impulse spending. Don't don't create more of an
issue than you already have. The second one would be
know your interest rates, so focus on paying off those

(10:42):
high interest debts first. These are often your credit cards,
and I mentioned just a moment ago that we've seen,
you know, starting in twenty twenty two, we saw interest
rates spike and then you know, they've come down a
little bit, but they're still higher than they were, like
I said, the previous ten fifteen years before that, so
you may not notice. But your interest rates, a lot

(11:05):
of them are not fixed. They're variable, especially your credit cards.
So as interest rates change, your interest rate also changes.
So more than likely you're paying more interest on your
credit card now than you were three years ago. So
take a look at those interest rates and prioritize those
high interest debts first. Now you don't have to do
this by yourself, so there are some pretty cool debt

(11:27):
payoff tools out there. I mentioned credit Karma earlier. Credit
karma dot com has some great calculators. Calculator dot net
is another place you can go to find out. You know, hey,
if I make this payment every month with this interest rate,
when will I actually have this paid off? Goes back
to what CJ was saying earlier. To make a plan

(11:48):
to pay off debt. The last one is pay your
bills on time. Late fees add up fast. They can
hurt your credit score, and they're really just you know,
adding to adding to your issue. And it's it's a
pretty simple way to avoid some additional fees.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Really good tips, Sara, as we talked this morning with CJ.
Class and Eric Schwartz. They are our retirement planning professionals
from Class Financial. If you got a question, love to
have you join us this morning phone number six oh
eight three two one thirteen ten. That's six oh eight
three two one thirteen ten. Love to get you on
the air again. Join this week by CJ. Closs and
Eric Swartz. You can learn more about Class Financial online

(12:24):
Class financial dot com. That's Coss k l aa S
Financial dot com And they're telephone number six oh eight
four four two five six three seven. No charge for
the initial get to know your appointment at Class Financial.
It will be complimentary to you again the telephone number
six oh eight four four two five six three seven.
Be talking about different types of debt with Cjen Eric,

(12:44):
we will do that and take your call. Next as
Money in Motion with Class Financial continues right here on
thirteen ten wib A talking with our retirement planning professionals
from Class Financial, Eric Schwartz and CJ. Closs. Of course,
you can learn more about Class Financial on their website
colss financial dot com. That's Class k l a A

(13:07):
S Financial dot com. You can learn about the team
at Coss Financially. You can learn about the separate divisions.
You can also sign up online for the weekly Market
Pulse newsletter. That all available to you at Clossfinancial dot com.
Telephone number six oh eight four four two five six
three seven. No charge for that initial gets to doing
appointment at Coss Financial. It will be complementary to you.
And again they're telephone number six O eight four four

(13:29):
two five six three seven. Talking this week about debt
and heading into retirement and left off we were just
kind of scratching the service a bit on interest rates
and what are some of the things we should be
looking for when it comes to different types of debt. CJ.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, good question. So we're going to kind of go
through some some different types of debt, secured debt, unsecured
debt and different categories that our clients commonly see. But
before we do, I just found it ironic. Eric was
just talking about it seems like you can finance just
about anything today, and then one of the ads you
probably caught this, Shan. One of the ads was like, oh,
you can finance, and I won't be particular because I

(14:05):
want to, you know, but one of the ads right
before we came on was referencing being able to finance something,
and I just found it ironic. Okay, moving on from that. Yes,
so different categories, uh, credit cards. So according to lending Tree,
the average interest rate is twenty four point two six
percent right now on credit cards, and if your credit

(14:27):
isn't great, that rate can jump up to twenty seven
and a half percent or even higher. So obviously credit
cards are what are a category kind of broadly that
we call unsecured debt. Whenever you hear that, everybody just you.
Sometimes it sounds overcomplicated, but think of it in terms of, hey,
if you default on making your credit card payment, can I,
as the bank or the credit card company, come and

(14:50):
repossess something that you own to then reduce my risk
to sell that repossessed item to then pay off some
of the debt. And the answer is no, not with
credit cards, because typically you're buying like groceries and other
items that you can't repossess, you can't give get title to.
That's the key to So we call it unsecured because
if you default, there's no recourse. I hope that helps everybody,

(15:14):
and of course that's why the interest rate has to
be so high to mitigate that risk. The next category
would be home loans. Ideally we want to see little
to no mortgage debt as you approach retirement. We already
talked about that. But as of the first of the
week in February of twenty twenty five, the national average
for a thirty year fixed rate mortgage is six point
nine percent and for a fifteen year fixed rate mortgage

(15:36):
it is six point h one percent. Listen, everybody, in
historical norms, this is actually not bad rates. It's just
just a few years ago it was like, I think
the thirty year was at three and the fifteen year
was at two, right, And so our brains are used
to these insanely low interest rates, and so now when

(15:56):
we gravitate back towards a normalized interest rate environment everybody,
but he's panicking. Truth be told, these rates are pretty normal.
What I would say to you is it doesn't really
matter what the rate is. Being debt free is the key,
because when you have debt, you have outgoing cash flow.
When you don't have debt, you don't have that required
outgoing cash flow. So those are the home loan rates,

(16:18):
and then and then we're going to get into auto loans.
So auto loans. In January of twenty twenty five, Edmunds
dot com listed the average car loan interest rate for
December of twenty twenty four as six point six percent
for new car loans and ten point eight percent APR
for used car loans. So again, somewhat of a historical
average what we're seeing here on the car loans. But

(16:40):
what I'd say to you is listen to that used
car loan space. I mean, listen if well, if you've
heard me talk about auto loans. I'm actually a big
proponent of getting vehicles that are lightly used because there's
about a thirty percent decline often off the new car
purchase price. That's not always true, by the way, but
that's typically true. So get a lightly use used vehicle.

(17:00):
The problem with that is, now, if you get a
lightly used vehicle that's had a thirty percent reduction off
the MSRP and you don't have the cash to buy
it with, the interest rate on that thing could be
ten to eleven percent. So you get the point here.
It's like, oh, man, if I'm gonna buy that used vehicle,
I may want to either have cash to buy it

(17:21):
with that would be our first choice, or if I
don't have cash to buy it with and I need
a vehicle to get around, then we get into what
we call the length of the loan or what you
know in finance or bank terms they would call the
amortization timeline. So, unbelievably, you can get auto loans these
days that last like up to eight years. For those

(17:42):
who don't know, that is insanity. And the reason it's
insanity is because the vehicle will be depreciating often faster
than you are paying down the debt. Therefore, if you
ever go to sell that vehicle, you might be upside down,
meaning the vehicle's worth less than you owe. So what
we would say is, listen, if you're forced into using

(18:04):
an auto loan, although we would prefer that you don't
then pay it off quickly, make it like a two
or three year loan. And if you go but I
don't have the cash flow for that, then I would
say you might want to get a cheaper vehicle because
pushing out that amortization timeline further. Yes, it brings down
your payment, but it also reduces the amount of equity

(18:27):
you will have in that vehicle over time. So if
you're going to get an auto loan, just be be
be very aware of the interest rate and try to
get it paid off as quickly as possible.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Talking this morning with CJ. Closs and Eric Schwartz. They
are our retirement planning professionals from Class Financial website class
financial dot com. That's colss k l aasfinancial dot com.
And they're tell for number six o eight four four
two five six three seven. No charge for that initial
gets to know you appointment at Loss Financial. It will
be complimentary to you. Again, they're number six oh eight
four four two five six three seven. So CJ, what

(18:57):
about it's all the new student loans when we need
to know.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, student loans are in the news right now. Hey,
couple things real quick on those auto loans. Interestingly, enough.
The average auto loan right now going back to auto
loans is seventy months. Wowsers. Again. I just cannot emphasize
to you all who are listening enough to say, if
you are doing anything on a vehicle loan over five years,

(19:23):
I personally just think that's ludicrous. I would much prefer
that it's three years or less. And my first choice
for you for your financial future would be that you
pay for that vehicle with cash. And what that means
because you go, how could I do that? Well, it
means you need to pay yourself three or four hundred

(19:43):
dollars a month for the next three four five years
to build up the resources so that when you need
to go buy a vehicle you write a check for
that vehicle. What you will find is that when you
are writing a check that took you three or four
years to save to buy that vehicle, will buy a
cheaper vehicle than you would have if you use debt

(20:04):
to finance it. Yes, let that sink in. When you
actually pre save and use your own money and you
write a check for a vehicle, you will on average
buy a cheaper vehicle than you would if you financed it.
Because something happens with our brains when we are using
debt to finance the purchase of something where we just
don't make as good of financial decisions. Okay, to this

(20:25):
final category of student loans, which, as Sean said, is
really in the news right now. I'm not going to
get into all the details of why. But there's just
a lot of questions right now on what's called the
SAVE program and what's going to happen to it in
the future, and if deferments are going to go away, YadA, YadA, YadA.
But federal student loans for undergrads currently have a six
point five to three percent interest rate for the twenty

(20:47):
twenty four to twenty twenty five school year. Grad students,
on the other hand, see rates as high as eight
point eight percent I'm sorry, eight point oh eight percent
on private loan or on those grad student loans, and
then private student loans can range from three and a
half up to sixteen and a half depending upon your
credit score. Now, be cautious these ideas of like refinancing

(21:12):
and consolidating with somebody outside of the student loan space.
This can sound really attractive because you end up with
one payment. It's consolidated, but you often are losing some
of the federal protections that exist, so be careful there.
Or if you're part of what's called a PSLF program,
it can eliminate that, so be careful. When we just
hear people go I'm just gonna, you know, move it

(21:33):
to a private lender and consolidate it all and move
it over here, we go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's
not that we're opposed to that, but you want to
slow down and make sure you're aware of what you're
giving up in the meantime, so listen. Big takeaway from
today is make it your goal to retire debt free,
including the elimination of your mortgage if possible. And don't

(21:55):
forget you still do need to be saving for retirement,
but we think think just the impact of not having
that outgoing cash flow for required debt service payments and retirement.
Given that, again, given that we do this for a living,
that is more powerful than you think. So make it
your goal to retire debt free.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Talking this morning with CJ. Closs and Eric Schwartz. Of course,
they are retirement planning professionals from Class Financial website class
financial dot Com that's class k l a A S
Financial dot com and they're telephone number six so eight
four four two five six three seven. Will do the
Class Quiz question of the week. We will also head
on over to the Money in Motion Listener question corner.
We will do all of that next as Money in

(22:37):
Motion with Class Financial continues right here on thirteen ten,
WI b A talking with our retirement planning professionals Eric
Schwartz and CJ. Closs. Of course, they come to us
from Class Financial website colss financial dot com. That's class
k l a A S Financial dot Com. And they're
telephone number six O eight four four two five six

(22:57):
three seven. No charge for that initial gets to know
you at Claus Financial. It will be complimentary to you. Again,
they're number six SO eight four four two five six
three seven. One of the cool features too, I mentioned
the website class Financial dot com. That's class k l
a A S Financial dot Com. One of the cool
features on the website is the opportunity to submit a
question to be answered here on the program with the
Money in Motion Listener question corner. And Becky writes in,

(23:20):
my husband and I are planning on retiring next year
and our term life insurance will end two years later,
does it make sense to replace the policy or let
it go at that time? Thanks for your guidance, and
that is from Becky.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, well, thank you. First of all, thank you for
writing in Ala. Sean says, we love to hear from
the listeners and get an idea of what it is
that what your questions are other than just what we
go over. And this is this is a really common
thing that we deal with here day to day because
especially with term life insurance policies, those are generally the

(23:58):
length of those is generally timed based on your life
insurance needs. So it would make sense that your your
term policies are coming to right around the time you're retiring,
because often your needs for life insurance change at that point.
So whether or not you want to replace that term
life insurance policy or let it lapse or whatever it
might be, is going to be based on a few things.

(24:22):
Number one, do you still have financial dependence? Do you
still have anyone that relies on you for income even
in retirement, so this could be children or other dependents.
If not, you know that may be a reason to
let the policy go. But if you do still have dependence.
That is one thing that insurance would remain important for.

(24:44):
You want to look at your debt and your expenses.
So we've talked about debt for most of today's show,
but often life insurance is put in place to pay
off some of your biggest debts, like your mortgage or
you know, future expenses. Let's say you want to provide
educational funding for your kids or your grandkids. Things like

(25:06):
these that could be a burden on your surviving spouse
or family members. These are another thing that may that
may cause you to say, well, maybe we want to
we wanna look at a different policy beyond what we
have here. From the From the term policy your savings
and your assets. So if you've if you built sufficient
retirement savings or other assets that would cover final expenses

(25:30):
and provide for your spouse and family, life insurance becomes
a lot less critical at that point. Your health and
the cost of a new policy, So this is a
really important thing when you're thinking about replacing a life
insurance policy. Often we get these policies in our younger
years when it's easier to qualify based on your health.

(25:51):
So if you are getting a new policy, especially around retirement,
you are likely to see higher premiums, and it's just
in general is more difficult to actually get a new
policy in the later years. And the last one here
is the purpose of your insurance. So was the original
policy intended to replace your income, to cover final expenses,

(26:16):
cover state taxes, maybe leave an inheritance. Now is a
really good time to reevaluate your financial goals and figure
out if life insurance still fits into fits into your
goals now. It's these are really high level responses and
I think pretty lengthy as well, So it's probably helpful

(26:36):
to consult with a financial advisor to review your specific situation,
determine if you want to, you know, if you want
to look at getting another policy, if you even need
another policy. And this coincides really well with kind of
the overall retirement planning process. So hopefully you're talking to
someone as you as you move into that part of
your life.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Great question, Becky, and great answer as well from Eric Schwartz.
Of course, Eric Schwartz and CJ. Clause our retirement planning
professionals from Class Financial. Learn more on the website Coss
financial dot com. That's Claus k l Aasfinancial dot com
telephon number for the office right here in Madison, six
oh eight four four two five six three seven. Don't
forget no charge for the initial gets to know your

(27:16):
appointment tech Coss Financial. It will beat complimentary to you
again their number six oh eight four four two five
six three seven. You can want to hold on to
that telephone number now because it's time for the class
quiz question of the week. It works like this. In
just a moment, I'll ask you the class quiz question
of the week. You will then have thirty minutes from
the today's program to call the Class Financial office at
six oh eight four four two five six three seven.

(27:37):
If you are the first car correct answer to win
this week's prize, which is a twenty five dollars gift
card to i hop this week's class quiz question the
week is this true or false? Entering retirement with the
least amount of debt will give you the most freedom.
Is that true or is that false? Telephlle number six
oh eight four four two five six three seven. First

(27:59):
call correct answer will win this week's prize that twenty
five dollars gift card to i op dot forget as well.
That's Class Financial's office. No charge for that initial get
to know your appointment at Class Financial. It is complementary
to you. Their telephone number six O eight four four
two five six three seven C J. Eric. It's always
great hanging out you guys. Enjoy this beautiful day and
we'll do it all again real soon. Thanks Sean, Thanks Sean,

(28:19):
and again that website COSS financial dot com. That's coss
k l a A S financial dot com Doctor Mardy Greer.
She joins us next with check out vet here on
thirteen ten wu I B a