December 11, 2024 • 36 mins
Paul Dehner Jr. of The Athletic and The Growler Podcast joined us to discuss the Cincinnati Bengals. Tee Higgins' name came up a few times. So did Joe Burrow's.
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Listen to the show live weekday afternoons 3:00 - 6:00 on ESPN1530.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station. All right,
that's us, Good afternoon, My like ESPN fifteen thirty five minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
After three o'clock.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Thrilled here with us broadcasting this afternoon from Buffalo Wild
Wings in Cold rings Stone Creek Boulevard. Typically we do
these shows on Tuesdays, but with the game on Monday,
we slid everything. So Tony and Moe yesterday and then
our stop off at the area Buffalo Wild Wings today.
Second time I've been here this football season. We were
(00:35):
here in late September. We're back here today. We've got
the by one get one half off traditional Wings. We've
got six for nineteen ninety nine, the six for nineteen
ninety nine deal, which is two entrees, two sides, two
fountain drinks for nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We've got five dollars bud light talls. We are here
until six o'clock.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
We've got some cool giveaways, and so if you're in
the Cold Rain area, come on out and say hello.
Very easy to get to right off I to seventy five.
Our friend Paul Danner Junior is here typically on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Very busy man today. Yes, came from the stadium, going
back to the stadium. Wow, I mean look for you
absolutely any well, I was. I was when you texted
me today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I had on my to do, let's see if we
can get a call from Paul and to get a
like a visit.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Here at Buffalo Wild Wings with yous. But I was
proactive and I reached out to you first. That's kind
of how things we're happy to do it. I love
I love this. I love this particular spot by the way,
this set up here. I was telling my buddy that
this is what he needs. He was trying to figure
out how to reconfigure a like man cave basement thing. Ok,
you need what they have at the Cold Rain Beatuck,
(01:45):
They've got it. It hangs down in the middle of
the bar. It's sort of like an arena set up
with the screens, like, this is what you need. This
is the setup right here. This is the one that
I would.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Get sick nixt Hawks tonight in the quarterfinals of the
NBA Cup.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This could be where I post up. I mean, think
about it, NBA Cup. I mean this is no bigger.
A cup right here gets no bigger.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I've already had the internal conversation like if they win
the NBA Cup, Do I get.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
A T shirt? Absolutely right? I think I do? Yeah,
I do? Yeah, no doubt what can they start putting
a real prize though? On winning the NBA Cup? I
want something. I want some serious steaks on that. I
think it should be automatic playoff Berth. That'd be fine,
Like that should be be okay, I'm gonna be the
last seed maybe, depending on it, like if it's the
(02:30):
automatic automatic finals Berth. No, it cannot.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I'm very good. Paul covers the Bengals for the Athletic
dot Com. His podcast is excellent. Hear that podcast. No,
it's the Growler Podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It's only been that way for eight months.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, yeah, the Growler Podcast. Apologies old habits, die Heart.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, it's okay. I'm here for you.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I've refer to this station as fifteen thirty Homer in
the past year, and it hasn't been that in a
fifteen years. So the Growler podcasts. Yes, a few things
to talk about, just a few.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I mean, look, honestly, the game had its fair share
of storylines, and then the postgame created really a much
more important storyline. Arguably, did the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Game in person feel like a reds Pirates game in September.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, everything feels bigger at at and T Stadium, Oh
everything does? It was I didn't think so it felt fun.
I mean now, granted, I mean you're about halfway through
it and the teams are kind of having a mistake
off and you're like, all right, I mean, this is
why they're both where they're at, This is why people
are currently talking about Lisa Simpson online. However, you know,
(03:44):
I just think right now, it's still just a joy
to watch Burrow and Chase play, and so it never
feels like reds Pirates when those two are going right now,
because you know, I'm just trying to enjoy the last
four games now of this season of getting to watch
this season. I feel like they'll I'm sure have many
great seasons, but I feel like this is one that
(04:05):
we'll talk about specifically through the lens of these two
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, the game still took a back seat to what
happened after No No with Joe Burrows.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
How personally taken aback? Were you a ton? Yeah? I
mean we're all kind of looking at each other like,
is he doing this? Did he say that? Did he
just double down on that? I mean when he says,
you know, it's not just the idea of tea. I
mean that you can anybody's gonna say that, right, it's
(04:33):
the I am confident. I am gonna do what it takes,
and so is he. And we've talked about that, and
I mean there is a there is a there's stunned
looks on all of our faces that he's going there
with that topic. Like you know, I sort of started
it with do you ever just look at Jamar in
a game like this and say you just want to
(04:53):
give him all the money and that? And I expect
to get the answer we got there. Of course, yeah,
everything he's wor every dime whatever, and it's true, but
for it to then go to the step that it
went to, and now we're talking about a whole different thing,
and I just you don't I certainly in that situation,
didn't expect to hear that from him. And then this,
you know, the sly I know something you don't know,
(05:16):
will see about why he's so confident about it, suggested
a guy just like that that has something up his
sleeve and knows something that we absolutely don't know. And
so yeah, stunned. So the thing up his sleeve has
to be a contract, restructure has to be you know.
It was funny the line I used in my story was, Okay,
(05:37):
if jamar talking about well, yeah, you can do it,
but it's got to be chess. Well, if it's chess,
the king has to make a move. He has to
restructure something. I mean for them, for this team to
do that, there's got to be something else in the
works with him willing to move money around in a
way that's cohesive with what they want to do with
Tea and make it all work for them in terms
(05:58):
of guaranteed dollars or whatever. So that I mean, if
he's willing to do that, and there's some way that
he's talked with ownership about how that could work, that
I'm interested in it. I mean that that could certainly
get the ball rolling. I just don't know that his
plan is the Bengals plan or the right plan. And
(06:23):
maybe if it's Burrough's plan, it doesn't matter what anybody
else's plan is. You just got to kind of do
what Joe wants to do. And I get that, and
I do think things in some ways have changed since
last offseason because well, they don't have enough good players.
I think they you would think and you would have
thought that they would have more guys that they could
(06:45):
foresee themselves paying in the near future and extending. And well,
you don't really have that sure who that you can
count on internally. Do you feel like you're willing to
give any amount of significant money too? I mean, honestly,
I'm here for those answers, right, And so if you're
talking about that, well, that can change the tone of
(07:08):
the conversation. When you get between the end of the
season and March win free agency begins, and so I
think maybe that's part of this. I don't know, it's
all fast, gonna beet a fascinating offseason. I'm can he
may be confident about some of the things he can do,
but there is definitely a long way, long, long, long
way to go for that thing across home plate.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So yeah, I just if Burrow though, like T maybe
my favorite line after all of it was T Higgins
just saying, shoot, well, if Burrow says it's possible, and
I guess it's possible, right, you know, I mean that
was because that is true.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
If he says it's possible, then we're all here to
believe that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Do you know how they have like that doomsday meter
that like adjusts certain world events.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm not sure. Do you have that in your house somewhere?
Do you like a monitor to the doomsday meet? No?
I just know that it exists.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Based on certain geopolitical conditions, the doomsday meter will adjust.
What was the doomsday meter for you prior to Monday
night regarding tea leaving at the end of.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
The season, in terms of the likelihood that happens. Give
me a percentage five?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Owe, how much has that been recalibrated based on Monday Night?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Fifty five?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It's a fifty five now for me. Okay, I still
I still think. I still don't see it right. But again,
you don't see it happening or don't see why. I
don't why it should happen.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I see why. I think they have so many holes
to fill that the idea of using it on tea
on a number two when everything else that has to
happen that you have to fill the offensive line defensive Oh,
I I personally don't see it. I think they're that
they're play was to get as much as they can
(09:03):
now out of Tea and then understand the way they
have to build the rest of the team. There's just
so many things you need to do. Yeah that I
don't know that that is how high that is on
the priority list. Right, So this is.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
To a degree on Monday night why I was kind
of annoyed because there was sort of this, hey, look
over here, look over here at T Higgins. And then
I even't put this on social media and I love
T Higgins, Like how do you not? Yeah, it's not
about but like I raised my hand and said, just hey,
really quick, they still have to fix the offensive line
and the defense, right, like.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, everything else basically, And.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So whether or not you do that with T Higgins
or without T Higgins, that's still a massive undertaking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And so there's a part of me who's like, boy,
Joe Burrow is.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
An awesome employee and teammate because he's making the conversation
about this T Higgins thing when this team is five
and eight, in large part because it's defense stinks. Oh
and by the way, I just watched Joe take a
whole bunch of other hits in an offensive line that
on a week to week basis is just not very good.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And so I hate to say annoyed.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I wasn't annoyed with Joe, but like suddenly it's all
about t Higgins. And then if you go, well, wait
a minute, wait a minute, what about fixing the defense
and the offensive lines?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Oh, draft picks? And it's like, well, yeah, except it's
kind of what they tried this year and it didn't work. Yeah.
I mean doing that to me in a lot of
ways is a doubling down on the way that they've
lost this year. I mean, scoring tons of points but
not having enough good players anywhere else. Yeah. And the
on the other side of this is, you know, two
(10:38):
things have happened with them offensively in the way they've
done it. And again I hate this because it's trying.
It's like diminishing tea and I don't want to do that, right,
But the way they have used Jamar Chase has despite
you know, tease gravity is a part of this, but
the way they've used him and moved him around to
make him undoubleable at times because you don't ever know
(11:00):
where he's coming from, and the way that's been so effective,
it kind of diminishes the need for the dominant number two.
Whereas before I feel like the way they were constructed.
The argument was, well, Te's presence is what's helping free
up Jamar to dominate in the way that he does.
That's not as much the case now. It still is,
and you'd still have a whole vent a number two
(11:21):
receiver that you've got to figure out somebody that can
be effective for you at But it's not as much
the case as it was before. And that's to me.
You know, a big part of this whole conversation when
you start breaking down the value of each person in
the in the big picture of the entire roster.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So you used verbiage there that I think is interesting
on multiple occasions.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Number two, So focus on that when we come back.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay, it is sixteen now, seventeen minutes after three o'clock,
we'll talk about.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The game they played. Also, yeah, they won one. They
won a football game. And if you haven't, I read
Paul's piece.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Bengals are getting set to play the Titans on Sunday,
which means a reunion with Brian Callahan and a good
piece on the relationship between Brian and Zach as those
two men get a chance to a coach against each
other as head coaches for the first time. Go get
that at the Athletic dot com. Paul's here till four,
We're here till six at Buffalo Wild Wings and Cole
Raine on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station Cincinnati. After three,
(12:28):
ESPN fifteen thirty were at Buffalo Wild Wings, col Rain,
Paul Danner Junior from The Athletic is here.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And the Growler podcast. That's right, that's the one. You
got it. You're on it. You know I am on
the podcast. Yes, almost every single week. That's right. God,
it's all good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Look, man, if I could screw it up, I will
spit a long season.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
It's long year. Yeah, yeah, you're good. That's it. We're
just coming up with excuses for my I mean, I
keep inventing new names and podcasts. I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I don't just merge anybody for not reman bring. At
this point, I barely well there's a lot of like
names of the individual episodes across the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Got to stop. It's just gotta stop. I'm with you.
It's gone so far beyond where it should be. I'm
with you on that.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So you know, we talked about t Higgins and you
know they've got all this other stuff to fix, and
you will find people who are I think smart folks
who understand how the league works, who are dismissive of
the impact of.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Having a handful of players that make a whole lot
of money.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And and then that negatively affecting the ability to make the
rest of the team better.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What do you say to that, Yeah, folks who say
the cap isn't real, Yeah, I mean, I think there
are a number of different levers that you can pull
to offset cap restrictions, and that's why you see a
lot of the teams willing to throw cash at things
(14:00):
too and move all the money around with using those
levers to offset some of the restrictions of the cap.
You know. And two primary examples to look at are
two that are in the same situation the Bengals are
in the Dolphins and the Eagles, who have done that
with their quarterback and top two receiver combos. Howie Roseman
is notably very good at this, and the Bengals haven't
(14:23):
been as willing to do a lot of that stuff.
And now they'll point out they have more cap, you know,
they have top ten cap space for next year before
they've even cut anybody, which they will do funny of
and that in twenty twenty six they have more cap
space than anybody available to them. I mean they structure
the things so that they have that advantage to them,
(14:44):
but they're not willing to do some of this other
stuff your pet you know, arguments on either side of that,
but the bottom line is you can make it whatever
you want to make it. It's my thing on this
has been the there's a lot of conjecture of they
don't want or they don't they're not willing to pay
(15:06):
Tea and Jamar and Joe, No, I don't. I think
philosophically they don't view paying t Higgins as the right move.
I think they could. I think they believe in trying
to build more of a complete team elsewhere, with Joe
and Jamar being that if they have to use if
you're just talking about allocations of resources, a pie, if
(15:27):
you I don't know, if you're familiar, Yeah, you can
bring the pie back. It's almost combined season where we're
going to get pie toss lots of the middle of
the holiday season. Don't worry Prime pie season. Don't worry
the Duke Tobin. The Duketobin Pie is going to be
discussed often, but you know, there there's all of this
different stuff that you can do, and and I don't
(15:47):
know how willing they're going to be to do that,
but I think it's more like they just want to
try to build more of a complete team rather than
spending that money on tea at the other guy opposite Jamar.
I just I think that's you know, kind of like
I said earlier, where it's like more of your kind
of leaning into a little bit of why you've been losing,
(16:10):
and that's not because of T, but it's been because
of everything else. Yeah, so fixing everything else should is
probably a higher priority in their eyes. And that's kind
of been the every step of the way. That's been
the way that they've treated this.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But I think some we're gonna hear that and go, well, yeah,
but but the reason why they won is they had Joe,
Jamar and T in twenty one and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
No, but yeah, I understand, But but I mean, let's
not forget the real reason for that run of the
Super Bowl. The defense it held teams down, right, while
while Joe got hit a million times, right, I mean
the turnovers and I mean that every playoff game ended
with a turnover before the Super Bowl. And in twenty
twenty two, you know, it was the defense making plays
(16:53):
just that was a top that was what six They
ranked six in the league in defense that year. And
they put it opposite, you know, an offense that we
criticized for portions of even that ten game wins streak
for not so the com I would push back on
that a little bit. Yeah, And I think likewise, Yeah,
and I Joe and jamar Man, they've proven to be
(17:14):
something that just put the rest of the pieces around
its Chase Brown, now you can you can still make
this thing work. And the other side of it being
and I you know I've talked, I kind of teased
this before the break, but you know, their thesis a
little bit or their their hunch on the t Higgins
injury thing only played itself out again this year, right,
(17:36):
Their take on look, paying that type of a money,
that type of money for somebody who has an availability
issue Hm year in and year out. Now, I mean
this has been every year of his career. That's a
hard sell. And I think that that to me was
always the differentiator in willingness to give Tea what he wanted.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, I don't have any issue with how the Bengals
have played this. Yeah, because he is a number two
wide receiver. Now some are going to hear that and
get mad. Dude, some of the most beloved players in
this franchise's history are number two wide receivers. They're going
to play against one of them on Sunday, a guy
who made a lot of money and had a lot
of success here and helped this franchise turn around as
(18:20):
a number two, number three wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
But that's what Tea is.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think there was this sense that, well, T's going
to hit free agency and then oh boy, he's going
to field offers and someone's gonna pay him to be
a number one wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
And maybe that happens. Yeah, it only takes one.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But I wonder how much of this is a recalibration
of his value based on the availability issue and then
just based on the fact that statistically he fits the
profile of a number two wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, I think you know, a number one to me
is all about you make the opposing defensive coordinator change
their game plan. They feel that. I don't know that
that's necessarily the case. If it's just T Higgins out
there without Jamar Chase, it's just different. It's different game
planning against and probably different game planning for that. Offensively,
(19:11):
I think that's the big difference. But he is a
dominant number two and that is a valuable, valuable no
Ques game and I'm not diminishing that at all.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
But I think there are some who go, well, you
can't pay two number one wide receivers, Well, they don't
have two number one wide reciites. They have a clear
cut number one. It might be number one in the
entire sport. This year he has been, and they've got
a very good, high end number two.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They would be overpaying for the slot that you should
have on your roster for a number two right receiver right,
specifically when they're about to be also overpaying for the
slot of a number one, because he's gonna blow every
number Justin Jefferson.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Out of the water this year and they're gonna have
to pay him right. And I'm not gonna listen to
the trade, Jamar keep Tea.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I'm not. I'm not set off the list you had that.
I know you're paying Jamar Chase. You're building everything around
the two of them, and you're doing that, and you're
telling your fans you're welcome for for entertaining value over
the neck. The duration of those of those deals, I
just you know, to me, it doesn't make as much
as much sense. But that said, all of that said,
(20:19):
if Joe wants it. So if that's what Joe wants.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
You know we're gonna we're gonna reach this point of
does Joe get everything he wants?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
What he says on Monday night sends shockwaves through the
fan base, right understandably, so understandably. So I'm skeptical that
it sends similar shock waves inside pay Corps Stadium.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I'm sure it was noted.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But this is the Bengals, I mean, and I do
not mean that as a as a criticism.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
This is just I cannot gonna move them off their spot.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I cannot imagine that the Cincinnati Bengals, knowing how they're run,
that suddenly on Tuesday morning, we're like, uh oh oh boy, okay,
all hands on deck, let's get this done. Got to
make Joe happy. Like we make fun of the that's
not what they do, that's not how they operate. And
so I think there is a publicly, at least from
the public standpoint, a very real sense of, well that
(21:12):
this is what Joe wants, this is what he's going
to get, and maybe he should. I don't think anybody
who feels that way has really followed this franchise.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
No now. But I do think that they listen to
their players and very much value Joe Burrows's opinion and
should and if they have these discussions, which I could,
I don't know this, but I feel like that would
be very reasonable that they've talked about this and including
(21:40):
between some people, maybe even in the front office, and
Joe and said, this is the restrictions here, this is
part of the limitations and he comes back to him,
he says, let me get back here in a day,
go back, talk to t Higgins. They talk about certain things,
what if this XYZ, and go back and say what
about this? And that changes the tenor of the conversation.
And now he's out confidently saying things after games. Maybe
(22:01):
that's something that you can see, and like you said,
it's an off season conversation, but I could absolutely see
that being the groundwork that's been maid that would suggest
the confidence that he used that exact word on Monday
night that he was exuding about that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I also think highly enough of Joe Burrow that if
it doesn't happen that he's We're not talking about some
petulant brat who's going to throw a temper tantrum. He
might make a mental note, Okay, yeah, let's see what
you got that's better. But at the end of the day,
I I I think folks are what what's the fallout
going to be if Joe doesn't get his way. I
(22:39):
think he's going to be open minded to see what
they do. That's that's next.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, I think I think it would be under the
understanding that they have a long conversation about well it's
A or BCD, E and F Yeah, right like that.
These are the two boats that you're weighing of. This
is the plan with that money? If we don't use
it here, what is a better location? We're talking through
that now, and it lands wherever it lands. And I
(23:04):
think his opinion holds weight. It does not hold as
much weight as Duke Tobin and the family and everything
else like that's but it holds a lot of weight.
It holds more weight than anybody outside of the family
ever has in the history of this organization. I don't
think that's a crazy thing to say.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So I went to bed after the game on Monday
night thinking about a lot of things, Joe Burrow, t Higgins.
But I went really to bed, really feeling sorry for
one guy. And I'll tell you who that is when
we come back me. No, can I feel sorry for you?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I don't know, because I had an early flight. Oh okay,
so we got a couple hours of sleep. I thought,
maybe you go to bed sinking about me schedule a
later flight. No, I had to get back. What look
things to do. Let's go to your break. It is
go to your break minutes from four o'clock.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Paul Danner, Junior at The Athletic dot Com and The
Growler Podcast where a Buffalo Wild Wings and Cole Raine
on ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station, Cincinnati's Here in
fifteen thirty Sports headlines and service of Kelsey Chevrolet home
of lifetime power training, protection and guaranteed credit approval from
their family to yours for livekelseyshev dot Com. Jamar Chase
(24:14):
AFC Offensive Player of the Week for his performance in
Cincinnati's twenty seven to twenty win over the Cowboys fourteen catches,
one hundred and seventy seven yards and a couple of touchdowns,
including the game winning score with just over a minute
to go. Bengals Titans on Sunday at one o'clock to
Zach Taylor say anything interesting today at the press conference?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Not anything particular. I'm kind of doing some stuff right
now on Chase Brown, and I think it's really interesting
the way that they've continued to kind of expand his
passing game. I red my mind a list, and so
you know, he's pretty good talking about that. But no,
nothing groundbreaking necessarily.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Joe Burrow has a press conference tonight at six o'clock
and he's unfortunately been in the news for non football reasons.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Is that gonna to be a circus tonight? I hope
not a circus. I would like to hope that it
gets handled, uh correctly. I mean, I think everyone would
be un understanding that there's gonna be a few probably
questions about that. But I don't I don't think it's
going to turn into the circus the circus atmosphere that
it sometimes can be. But I mean, obviously it's been suck.
(25:20):
It's yeah, dude blows I mean way to put it and.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Then you and then you all the other attention and
everything that comes with it when just the one from
something that's totally outside of your control, you find it
out in the locker room.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Your knee hurts, yeah, you know, and everything else, and
you're like, I mean that's just uh, yeah, it's it's brutal. Uh.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
If you're looking for Bengals game plan tonight, it's on
Fox Sports thirteen sixty. We have UK basketball tonight on
ESPN fifteen thirty, Kentucky taking on Colgate.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
That game tips off at eight fifty five.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
K r C has the till between n KU and
the University of the Cumberlands. I felt bad for Nick Vigil,
oh when I went to moment, because when I think
of Nick, I think of him getting undressed by Lamar
Jackson in twenty eighteen. And this was gonna be when
you said Nick Vigil ten years from now that what
I was gonna remember is like, ah, that time he
blocked the punt against the Bengals, And now that's a
(26:11):
footnote in a game that ends up being a footnote,
and so now it cycles back to Nick Vigil being
undressed by Lamar Jackson in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, and he was kind of the the scapegoat of
a bad defense too, Like he was like, oh, you
can't have Nick Vigil out there, and it was all
happen even still in the league, and he was gonna
have his absolute moment. He did it, and he blew
right by Muma Jong Meta who recovers it. Yeah, unbelievable.
What a quote, by the way, after the game from
mckem Davis gay there says that boy saved his job.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Now no one's talking about the miss block. Instead he
gets to recover the fuone. But what would your postgame
story have been about had Joe Burrow not talked about
T Higgins.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Jamar Chase. I mean, in just the continued evolution of
of this of this guy and and really their connection.
I mean, both of those touchdowns are plays that almost
solely come from just elite freak show chemistry. I mean,
and you heard I hadn't seen it. I rewatched some
(27:17):
of the broadcasts and stuff like that yesterday, with which
one Simpson's I do love maning casts. I'm usually a
man and cast guy. When I watched Monday Night Football
and I did go back and check out some of that,
but no talking about and Aikman was even i guess,
on Dallas Radio today talking about Burrows his favorite quarterback
or player in the league and maybe ever, which was great.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, I mean pretty strong words, but you hear him
talking about the anti Smith. Michael's fine, but he was
talking about the elite anticipation of that throw and just
you know, that's something that we've heard them talk about
a lot about.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I remember Jamal trying to teach andre Yoshibash the basics
of that, and Yoshi caught a touchdown on that route
against I believe Kansas City earlier this year. Same type
of thing going right. It's just a chemistry throw that
they've developed over the years. It is truly unstoppable when
they do it like that, like you can't eat. The
ball was far out before Jamar was even at its break.
It shows up right over top of the pylon. He
(28:20):
catches it right there every single time. That is just
elite chemistry stuff. The touchdown at the end again reference
that was from the the same player as the New
Orleans game, right well, knowing where to throw it, knowing
how Jamar is gonna want to react, and his ability
to make that one guy miss in that spot. That's
just stuff of just knowing exactly what you've got. And
it may be a simple play they run all the time,
but their ability to execute it at that level makes
(28:42):
it much more than just a simple play that they
run all the time. And that type of stuff that's
just separating them right now. That would have been their
connection continuing to blossom. Was going to be the story
before all of that happens. It still kind of is,
because it's still the basis of everything that we were talking.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Case's dominant season is an NFL storyline that that you
could you could tap into it at any point. Uh
you podcast with Jay Morrison, who often comes up with
obscure stats or stats that tell a certain story. Has
he looked into whether a team has ever come from
(29:21):
off the graphic or in the hunt to make the postseason?
Has that ever happened? And is this part of the
research motivation? Like, didn't even have us in the hunt?
They got to be in the hunt on Sunday right,
not yet, weren't even on the graphic. They weren't on
the graph.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Should they create a fourth graphic? No? I think you
have to be at least five percent to probably make
the screen. Don't you cover your tracks with like a
fourth graph every day?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
They got to play themselves into the hunts? Probably not,
but just in case or something, we're still in the
we need to play ourselves onto the screen stage. Okay,
way will they be on the screen at kickoff? When
they show it before kick you'll be at the game.
But CBS has it this week, right, so like right
before kickoff and they show the graphic, right and the
(30:05):
Titans aren't going to be on it because they're officially eliminated.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Don't they have to have the Bengals in the hunt
now only on the Bengals Titans feed to try to
sneak some relevance the into that game nowhere else, not
on NBC Sunday Night Football. I think one more week
if they're still alive after you know, after this weekend,
right right, and you get the well, the result between
the Colts and the Broncos will kind of be a
(30:28):
little wash, depends on how you view it, but they'll
still they can still be alive with a win and
you could see it. Then I think they're back onto
the screen. You say, well, you know that that was
my next scene, it's like you read my notes. Look,
when is the well you know moment?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Because I don't think it happened on Monday, right, yeah,
I don't think it happened on Monday. But if if
they win, so that the tragic number is two, a
combination of Denver wins and Bengals losses adding up to
two and they're done. So if if the Bengals win
and the Broncos lose, the tragic number remains a two,
is that the well you know moment? Or do they
(31:05):
have to then get to the Browns game, win that
one and kind of be in the stats.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They got to be setting themselves up for that Denver game.
I think No. I think probably going into the Browns game,
especially if they go and they they look like a
team that has some momentum and they go get it.
Let's say they beat the tent Titans by seventeen, let's
say thirty four to seventeen, and get the result they
like elsewhere. I think then you start to be like,
(31:32):
you know, you could see the Bengals ripping off these
five in a row. You could see that happening, right,
You got to But I don't know that you can
see that right now. They should have lost that game.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Should have I should have They did everything that they've
done all year long until Dallas was like, actually we'll
go ahead and screw this one. So does the blocked
punt and ended up being recovered, Like we've we've you know,
we named famous plays in NFL in Bengals history.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
The what have we settled on with Sam Hubbard? Is
it the Hubbard yard? I mean I I think I
like Hubbard yard dash personally fumbling the jungle head of life.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So if that the block punt that ended up being
recovered is kind of the pivot point. Do we know
what we're gonna call that plays? It would probably end
up with something Simpsons Z would be dope, right, the
nature of the game being kind of known for just
the Simpsons broadcast. I like this piece who wrote about
Brian Callahan and Zach Taylor thank you because this is
(32:28):
about friendship, right, I mean that that's.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I think, I yeah, it's about something that like at
the core is something everyone can relate to, yes, right,
like someone who helped you, someone who poured a lot
of investment into you, and a friendship that kind of
helps you through tough times. And then those tough times
showed up immediately, right, and you and that person that's
just on the text dropping you jokes, the only person
(32:51):
that knows that it's okay to send you the message
when something bad happened to you, you know, like and
and keeps you in the right frame of mind, develops
that sanity and and appreciation and of gratitude for that.
I think everyone can connect with that. And uh, and
that's I originally, you know, wanted to write about them
from the moment that I watched the introductory news conference
(33:14):
of Brian down striking the moment what made him emotional
was Mike Brown, and I was like, well, I need
to know more about that, right, And he's unbelievable. He's
great talking about why that was. But it really turned
into so much more about sort of the two of
them and and and and lifting each other up and
just people that understand what that means. And so I
(33:35):
was kind of, you know, honored to be able to
tell that story because it's really cool, and I think
it's rare, Like the NFL is so uber competitive and
it's so it feels dirty all the time, and the
way that people get everyone's always getting fired and you're
using every advantage you can and people trying to steal
assistance and this day, who's gonna and this is much
(33:56):
more like pure about like just looks like just genuine
good dudes trying to help.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think that there's it
tells a story about who they are, and I want
folks to read it. But but Brian's sort of going
through something similar to what Zach went through year one,
and neither coach enjoying a great season. Right now, when
Luanna Rumo is coaching the defense at stony Brook or
wherever he's gonna, are you gonna write is it gonna
be a similar story?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I don't know if it'll be quite a stony Brook.
I don't know. Gagner, you're not evenna give him.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Francis don't do don Bosco prep, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
T Neck No, probably not, because it's gonna be coaching
the Piles defense next year. Not saying that. I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
That, all right, I know you have to to go
the music they're doing, the Tarrant telling us his time
to go, like TMZ gonna be there tonight.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Oh I hope. I mean if TMZ was there? Do
you ever really know?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
It's a good question National Acquire, like, what's what? What
are we talking about? Like non like you guys, he knews,
he knews.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That would be my best bet. I knew shows like
I don't know. Is Maria Manuno still involved in the
news situation? Is she still there?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I'll tell you what if if she's there tonight? That's
pretty good. It's pretty cools asner. You get like a CNN.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Maybe yeah, maybe what if they send Lache to do
what I don't know, just to be down he's in town.
Stand there, yeah, yes, stand there? Host it. I mean,
I feel like that's the level of crazy Mario Lopez
going to be. That's the level of craziness that we're reaching.
It feels like this press conference needs a host. Can't wait?
All right, man? Thank you as always.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Read Paul's work on the Bengals, Theathletic dot Com, catch
the podcast, the Growler podcast typically on Wednesdays. We talked
with Rick Boring at this time, but we punted him
to four oh five Rick on the Musketeers and the Norse.
Next where a Buffalo Wild Wings? Col Raine, ESPN fifteen thirty,
Cincinnati
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Sports Station, Cincinnati's Family Sports greless butter
This is ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station. All right,
that's us, Good afternoon, My like ESPN fifteen thirty five minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
After three o'clock.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Thrilled here with us broadcasting this afternoon from Buffalo Wild
Wings in Cold rings Stone Creek Boulevard. Typically we do
these shows on Tuesdays, but with the game on Monday,
we slid everything. So Tony and Moe yesterday and then
our stop off at the area Buffalo Wild Wings today.
Second time I've been here this football season. We were
(00:35):
here in late September. We're back here today. We've got
the by one get one half off traditional Wings. We've
got six for nineteen ninety nine, the six for nineteen
ninety nine deal, which is two entrees, two sides, two
fountain drinks for nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We've got five dollars bud light talls. We are here
until six o'clock.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
We've got some cool giveaways, and so if you're in
the Cold Rain area, come on out and say hello.
Very easy to get to right off I to seventy five.
Our friend Paul Danner Junior is here typically on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Very busy man today. Yes, came from the stadium, going
back to the stadium. Wow, I mean look for you
absolutely any well, I was. I was when you texted
me today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I had on my to do, let's see if we
can get a call from Paul and to get a
like a visit.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Here at Buffalo Wild Wings with yous. But I was
proactive and I reached out to you first. That's kind
of how things we're happy to do it. I love
I love this. I love this particular spot by the way,
this set up here. I was telling my buddy that
this is what he needs. He was trying to figure
out how to reconfigure a like man cave basement thing. Ok,
you need what they have at the Cold Rain Beatuck,
(01:45):
They've got it. It hangs down in the middle of
the bar. It's sort of like an arena set up
with the screens, like, this is what you need. This
is the setup right here. This is the one that
I would.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Get sick nixt Hawks tonight in the quarterfinals of the
NBA Cup.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This could be where I post up. I mean, think
about it, NBA Cup. I mean this is no bigger.
A cup right here gets no bigger.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I've already had the internal conversation like if they win
the NBA Cup, Do I get.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
A T shirt? Absolutely right? I think I do? Yeah,
I do? Yeah, no doubt what can they start putting
a real prize though? On winning the NBA Cup? I
want something. I want some serious steaks on that. I
think it should be automatic playoff Berth. That'd be fine,
Like that should be be okay, I'm gonna be the
last seed maybe, depending on it, like if it's the
(02:30):
automatic automatic finals Berth. No, it cannot.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I'm very good. Paul covers the Bengals for the Athletic
dot Com. His podcast is excellent. Hear that podcast. No,
it's the Growler Podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It's only been that way for eight months.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, yeah, the Growler Podcast. Apologies old habits, die Heart.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, it's okay. I'm here for you.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I've refer to this station as fifteen thirty Homer in
the past year, and it hasn't been that in a
fifteen years. So the Growler podcasts. Yes, a few things
to talk about, just a few.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I mean, look, honestly, the game had its fair share
of storylines, and then the postgame created really a much
more important storyline. Arguably, did the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Game in person feel like a reds Pirates game in September.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, everything feels bigger at at and T Stadium, Oh
everything does? It was I didn't think so it felt fun.
I mean now, granted, I mean you're about halfway through
it and the teams are kind of having a mistake
off and you're like, all right, I mean, this is
why they're both where they're at, This is why people
are currently talking about Lisa Simpson online. However, you know,
(03:44):
I just think right now, it's still just a joy
to watch Burrow and Chase play, and so it never
feels like reds Pirates when those two are going right now,
because you know, I'm just trying to enjoy the last
four games now of this season of getting to watch
this season. I feel like they'll I'm sure have many
great seasons, but I feel like this is one that
(04:05):
we'll talk about specifically through the lens of these two
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, the game still took a back seat to what
happened after No No with Joe Burrows.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
How personally taken aback? Were you a ton? Yeah? I
mean we're all kind of looking at each other like,
is he doing this? Did he say that? Did he
just double down on that? I mean when he says,
you know, it's not just the idea of tea. I
mean that you can anybody's gonna say that, right, it's
(04:33):
the I am confident. I am gonna do what it takes,
and so is he. And we've talked about that, and
I mean there is a there is a there's stunned
looks on all of our faces that he's going there
with that topic. Like you know, I sort of started
it with do you ever just look at Jamar in
a game like this and say you just want to
(04:53):
give him all the money and that? And I expect
to get the answer we got there. Of course, yeah,
everything he's wor every dime whatever, and it's true, but
for it to then go to the step that it
went to, and now we're talking about a whole different thing,
and I just you don't I certainly in that situation,
didn't expect to hear that from him. And then this,
you know, the sly I know something you don't know,
(05:16):
will see about why he's so confident about it, suggested
a guy just like that that has something up his
sleeve and knows something that we absolutely don't know. And
so yeah, stunned. So the thing up his sleeve has
to be a contract, restructure has to be you know.
It was funny the line I used in my story was, Okay,
(05:37):
if jamar talking about well, yeah, you can do it,
but it's got to be chess. Well, if it's chess,
the king has to make a move. He has to
restructure something. I mean for them, for this team to
do that, there's got to be something else in the
works with him willing to move money around in a
way that's cohesive with what they want to do with
Tea and make it all work for them in terms
(05:58):
of guaranteed dollars or whatever. So that I mean, if
he's willing to do that, and there's some way that
he's talked with ownership about how that could work, that
I'm interested in it. I mean that that could certainly
get the ball rolling. I just don't know that his
plan is the Bengals plan or the right plan. And
(06:23):
maybe if it's Burrough's plan, it doesn't matter what anybody
else's plan is. You just got to kind of do
what Joe wants to do. And I get that, and
I do think things in some ways have changed since
last offseason because well, they don't have enough good players.
I think they you would think and you would have
thought that they would have more guys that they could
(06:45):
foresee themselves paying in the near future and extending. And well,
you don't really have that sure who that you can
count on internally. Do you feel like you're willing to
give any amount of significant money too? I mean, honestly,
I'm here for those answers, right, And so if you're
talking about that, well, that can change the tone of
(07:08):
the conversation. When you get between the end of the
season and March win free agency begins, and so I
think maybe that's part of this. I don't know, it's
all fast, gonna beet a fascinating offseason. I'm can he
may be confident about some of the things he can do,
but there is definitely a long way, long, long, long
way to go for that thing across home plate.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So yeah, I just if Burrow though, like T maybe
my favorite line after all of it was T Higgins
just saying, shoot, well, if Burrow says it's possible, and
I guess it's possible, right, you know, I mean that
was because that is true.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
If he says it's possible, then we're all here to
believe that.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Do you know how they have like that doomsday meter
that like adjusts certain world events.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm not sure. Do you have that in your house somewhere?
Do you like a monitor to the doomsday meet? No?
I just know that it exists.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Based on certain geopolitical conditions, the doomsday meter will adjust.
What was the doomsday meter for you prior to Monday
night regarding tea leaving at the end of.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
The season, in terms of the likelihood that happens. Give
me a percentage five?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Owe, how much has that been recalibrated based on Monday Night?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Fifty five?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It's a fifty five now for me. Okay, I still
I still think. I still don't see it right. But again,
you don't see it happening or don't see why. I
don't why it should happen.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I see why. I think they have so many holes
to fill that the idea of using it on tea
on a number two when everything else that has to
happen that you have to fill the offensive line defensive Oh,
I I personally don't see it. I think they're that
they're play was to get as much as they can
(09:03):
now out of Tea and then understand the way they
have to build the rest of the team. There's just
so many things you need to do. Yeah that I
don't know that that is how high that is on
the priority list. Right, So this is.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
To a degree on Monday night why I was kind
of annoyed because there was sort of this, hey, look
over here, look over here at T Higgins. And then
I even't put this on social media and I love
T Higgins, Like how do you not? Yeah, it's not
about but like I raised my hand and said, just hey,
really quick, they still have to fix the offensive line
and the defense, right, like.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, everything else basically, And.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So whether or not you do that with T Higgins
or without T Higgins, that's still a massive undertaking.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And so there's a part of me who's like, boy,
Joe Burrow is.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
An awesome employee and teammate because he's making the conversation
about this T Higgins thing when this team is five
and eight, in large part because it's defense stinks. Oh
and by the way, I just watched Joe take a
whole bunch of other hits in an offensive line that
on a week to week basis is just not very good.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And so I hate to say annoyed.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I wasn't annoyed with Joe, but like suddenly it's all
about t Higgins. And then if you go, well, wait
a minute, wait a minute, what about fixing the defense
and the offensive lines?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Oh, draft picks? And it's like, well, yeah, except it's
kind of what they tried this year and it didn't work. Yeah.
I mean doing that to me in a lot of
ways is a doubling down on the way that they've
lost this year. I mean, scoring tons of points but
not having enough good players anywhere else. Yeah. And the
on the other side of this is, you know, two
(10:38):
things have happened with them offensively in the way they've
done it. And again I hate this because it's trying.
It's like diminishing tea and I don't want to do that, right,
But the way they have used Jamar Chase has despite
you know, tease gravity is a part of this, but
the way they've used him and moved him around to
make him undoubleable at times because you don't ever know
(11:00):
where he's coming from, and the way that's been so effective,
it kind of diminishes the need for the dominant number two.
Whereas before I feel like the way they were constructed.
The argument was, well, Te's presence is what's helping free
up Jamar to dominate in the way that he does.
That's not as much the case now. It still is,
and you'd still have a whole vent a number two
(11:21):
receiver that you've got to figure out somebody that can
be effective for you at But it's not as much
the case as it was before. And that's to me.
You know, a big part of this whole conversation when
you start breaking down the value of each person in
the in the big picture of the entire roster.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So you used verbiage there that I think is interesting
on multiple occasions.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Number two, So focus on that when we come back.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay, it is sixteen now, seventeen minutes after three o'clock,
we'll talk about.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The game they played. Also, yeah, they won one. They
won a football game. And if you haven't, I read
Paul's piece.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Bengals are getting set to play the Titans on Sunday,
which means a reunion with Brian Callahan and a good
piece on the relationship between Brian and Zach as those
two men get a chance to a coach against each
other as head coaches for the first time. Go get
that at the Athletic dot com. Paul's here till four,
We're here till six at Buffalo Wild Wings and Cole
Raine on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports Station Cincinnati. After three,
(12:28):
ESPN fifteen thirty were at Buffalo Wild Wings, col Rain,
Paul Danner Junior from The Athletic is here.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And the Growler podcast. That's right, that's the one. You
got it. You're on it. You know I am on
the podcast. Yes, almost every single week. That's right. God,
it's all good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Look, man, if I could screw it up, I will
spit a long season.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
It's long year. Yeah, yeah, you're good. That's it. We're
just coming up with excuses for my I mean, I
keep inventing new names and podcasts. I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I don't just merge anybody for not reman bring. At
this point, I barely well there's a lot of like
names of the individual episodes across the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Got to stop. It's just gotta stop. I'm with you.
It's gone so far beyond where it should be. I'm
with you on that.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So you know, we talked about t Higgins and you
know they've got all this other stuff to fix, and
you will find people who are I think smart folks
who understand how the league works, who are dismissive of
the impact of.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Having a handful of players that make a whole lot
of money.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And and then that negatively affecting the ability to make the
rest of the team better.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What do you say to that, Yeah, folks who say
the cap isn't real, Yeah, I mean, I think there
are a number of different levers that you can pull
to offset cap restrictions, and that's why you see a
lot of the teams willing to throw cash at things
(14:00):
too and move all the money around with using those
levers to offset some of the restrictions of the cap.
You know. And two primary examples to look at are
two that are in the same situation the Bengals are
in the Dolphins and the Eagles, who have done that
with their quarterback and top two receiver combos. Howie Roseman
is notably very good at this, and the Bengals haven't
(14:23):
been as willing to do a lot of that stuff.
And now they'll point out they have more cap, you know,
they have top ten cap space for next year before
they've even cut anybody, which they will do funny of
and that in twenty twenty six they have more cap
space than anybody available to them. I mean they structure
the things so that they have that advantage to them,
(14:44):
but they're not willing to do some of this other
stuff your pet you know, arguments on either side of that,
but the bottom line is you can make it whatever
you want to make it. It's my thing on this
has been the there's a lot of conjecture of they
don't want or they don't they're not willing to pay
(15:06):
Tea and Jamar and Joe, No, I don't. I think
philosophically they don't view paying t Higgins as the right move.
I think they could. I think they believe in trying
to build more of a complete team elsewhere, with Joe
and Jamar being that if they have to use if
you're just talking about allocations of resources, a pie, if
(15:27):
you I don't know, if you're familiar, Yeah, you can
bring the pie back. It's almost combined season where we're
going to get pie toss lots of the middle of
the holiday season. Don't worry Prime pie season. Don't worry
the Duke Tobin. The Duketobin Pie is going to be
discussed often, but you know, there there's all of this
different stuff that you can do, and and I don't
(15:47):
know how willing they're going to be to do that,
but I think it's more like they just want to
try to build more of a complete team rather than
spending that money on tea at the other guy opposite Jamar.
I just I think that's you know, kind of like
I said earlier, where it's like more of your kind
of leaning into a little bit of why you've been losing,
(16:10):
and that's not because of T, but it's been because
of everything else. Yeah, so fixing everything else should is
probably a higher priority in their eyes. And that's kind
of been the every step of the way. That's been
the way that they've treated this.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But I think some we're gonna hear that and go, well, yeah,
but but the reason why they won is they had Joe,
Jamar and T in twenty one and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
No, but yeah, I understand, But but I mean, let's
not forget the real reason for that run of the
Super Bowl. The defense it held teams down, right, while
while Joe got hit a million times, right, I mean
the turnovers and I mean that every playoff game ended
with a turnover before the Super Bowl. And in twenty
twenty two, you know, it was the defense making plays
(16:53):
just that was a top that was what six They
ranked six in the league in defense that year. And
they put it opposite, you know, an offense that we
criticized for portions of even that ten game wins streak
for not so the com I would push back on
that a little bit. Yeah, And I think likewise, Yeah,
and I Joe and jamar Man, they've proven to be
(17:14):
something that just put the rest of the pieces around
its Chase Brown, now you can you can still make
this thing work. And the other side of it being
and I you know I've talked, I kind of teased
this before the break, but you know, their thesis a
little bit or their their hunch on the t Higgins
injury thing only played itself out again this year, right,
(17:36):
Their take on look, paying that type of a money,
that type of money for somebody who has an availability
issue Hm year in and year out. Now, I mean
this has been every year of his career. That's a
hard sell. And I think that that to me was
always the differentiator in willingness to give Tea what he wanted.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, I don't have any issue with how the Bengals
have played this. Yeah, because he is a number two
wide receiver. Now some are going to hear that and
get mad. Dude, some of the most beloved players in
this franchise's history are number two wide receivers. They're going
to play against one of them on Sunday, a guy
who made a lot of money and had a lot
of success here and helped this franchise turn around as
(18:20):
a number two, number three wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
But that's what Tea is.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think there was this sense that, well, T's going
to hit free agency and then oh boy, he's going
to field offers and someone's gonna pay him to be
a number one wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
And maybe that happens. Yeah, it only takes one.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But I wonder how much of this is a recalibration
of his value based on the availability issue and then
just based on the fact that statistically he fits the
profile of a number two wide receiver.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, I think you know, a number one to me
is all about you make the opposing defensive coordinator change
their game plan. They feel that. I don't know that
that's necessarily the case. If it's just T Higgins out
there without Jamar Chase, it's just different. It's different game
planning against and probably different game planning for that. Offensively,
(19:11):
I think that's the big difference. But he is a
dominant number two and that is a valuable, valuable no
Ques game and I'm not diminishing that at all.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
But I think there are some who go, well, you
can't pay two number one wide receivers, Well, they don't
have two number one wide reciites. They have a clear
cut number one. It might be number one in the
entire sport. This year he has been, and they've got
a very good, high end number two.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They would be overpaying for the slot that you should
have on your roster for a number two right receiver right,
specifically when they're about to be also overpaying for the
slot of a number one, because he's gonna blow every
number Justin Jefferson.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Out of the water this year and they're gonna have
to pay him right. And I'm not gonna listen to
the trade, Jamar keep Tea.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I'm not. I'm not set off the list you had that.
I know you're paying Jamar Chase. You're building everything around
the two of them, and you're doing that, and you're
telling your fans you're welcome for for entertaining value over
the neck. The duration of those of those deals, I
just you know, to me, it doesn't make as much
as much sense. But that said, all of that said,
(20:19):
if Joe wants it. So if that's what Joe wants.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
You know we're gonna we're gonna reach this point of
does Joe get everything he wants?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
What he says on Monday night sends shockwaves through the
fan base, right understandably, so understandably. So I'm skeptical that
it sends similar shock waves inside pay Corps Stadium.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I'm sure it was noted.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But this is the Bengals, I mean, and I do
not mean that as a as a criticism.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
This is just I cannot gonna move them off their spot.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I cannot imagine that the Cincinnati Bengals, knowing how they're run,
that suddenly on Tuesday morning, we're like, uh oh oh boy, okay,
all hands on deck, let's get this done. Got to
make Joe happy. Like we make fun of the that's
not what they do, that's not how they operate. And
so I think there is a publicly, at least from
the public standpoint, a very real sense of, well that
(21:12):
this is what Joe wants, this is what he's going
to get, and maybe he should. I don't think anybody
who feels that way has really followed this franchise.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
No now. But I do think that they listen to
their players and very much value Joe Burrows's opinion and
should and if they have these discussions, which I could,
I don't know this, but I feel like that would
be very reasonable that they've talked about this and including
(21:40):
between some people, maybe even in the front office, and
Joe and said, this is the restrictions here, this is
part of the limitations and he comes back to him,
he says, let me get back here in a day,
go back, talk to t Higgins. They talk about certain things,
what if this XYZ, and go back and say what
about this? And that changes the tenor of the conversation.
And now he's out confidently saying things after games. Maybe
(22:01):
that's something that you can see, and like you said,
it's an off season conversation, but I could absolutely see
that being the groundwork that's been maid that would suggest
the confidence that he used that exact word on Monday
night that he was exuding about that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I also think highly enough of Joe Burrow that if
it doesn't happen that he's We're not talking about some
petulant brat who's going to throw a temper tantrum. He
might make a mental note, Okay, yeah, let's see what
you got that's better. But at the end of the day,
I I I think folks are what what's the fallout
going to be if Joe doesn't get his way. I
(22:39):
think he's going to be open minded to see what
they do. That's that's next.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, I think I think it would be under the
understanding that they have a long conversation about well it's
A or BCD, E and F Yeah, right like that.
These are the two boats that you're weighing of. This
is the plan with that money? If we don't use
it here, what is a better location? We're talking through
that now, and it lands wherever it lands. And I
(23:04):
think his opinion holds weight. It does not hold as
much weight as Duke Tobin and the family and everything
else like that's but it holds a lot of weight.
It holds more weight than anybody outside of the family
ever has in the history of this organization. I don't
think that's a crazy thing to say.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So I went to bed after the game on Monday
night thinking about a lot of things, Joe Burrow, t Higgins.
But I went really to bed, really feeling sorry for
one guy. And I'll tell you who that is when
we come back me. No, can I feel sorry for you?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I don't know, because I had an early flight. Oh okay,
so we got a couple hours of sleep. I thought,
maybe you go to bed sinking about me schedule a
later flight. No, I had to get back. What look
things to do. Let's go to your break. It is
go to your break minutes from four o'clock.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Paul Danner, Junior at The Athletic dot Com and The
Growler Podcast where a Buffalo Wild Wings and Cole Raine
on ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station, Cincinnati's Here in
fifteen thirty Sports headlines and service of Kelsey Chevrolet home
of lifetime power training, protection and guaranteed credit approval from
their family to yours for livekelseyshev dot Com. Jamar Chase
(24:14):
AFC Offensive Player of the Week for his performance in
Cincinnati's twenty seven to twenty win over the Cowboys fourteen catches,
one hundred and seventy seven yards and a couple of touchdowns,
including the game winning score with just over a minute
to go. Bengals Titans on Sunday at one o'clock to
Zach Taylor say anything interesting today at the press conference?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Not anything particular. I'm kind of doing some stuff right
now on Chase Brown, and I think it's really interesting
the way that they've continued to kind of expand his
passing game. I red my mind a list, and so
you know, he's pretty good talking about that. But no,
nothing groundbreaking necessarily.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Joe Burrow has a press conference tonight at six o'clock
and he's unfortunately been in the news for non football reasons.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Is that gonna to be a circus tonight? I hope
not a circus. I would like to hope that it
gets handled, uh correctly. I mean, I think everyone would
be un understanding that there's gonna be a few probably
questions about that. But I don't I don't think it's
going to turn into the circus the circus atmosphere that
it sometimes can be. But I mean, obviously it's been suck.
(25:20):
It's yeah, dude blows I mean way to put it and.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Then you and then you all the other attention and
everything that comes with it when just the one from
something that's totally outside of your control, you find it
out in the locker room.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Your knee hurts, yeah, you know, and everything else, and
you're like, I mean that's just uh, yeah, it's it's brutal. Uh.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
If you're looking for Bengals game plan tonight, it's on
Fox Sports thirteen sixty. We have UK basketball tonight on
ESPN fifteen thirty, Kentucky taking on Colgate.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
That game tips off at eight fifty five.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
K r C has the till between n KU and
the University of the Cumberlands. I felt bad for Nick Vigil,
oh when I went to moment, because when I think
of Nick, I think of him getting undressed by Lamar
Jackson in twenty eighteen. And this was gonna be when
you said Nick Vigil ten years from now that what
I was gonna remember is like, ah, that time he
blocked the punt against the Bengals, And now that's a
(26:11):
footnote in a game that ends up being a footnote,
and so now it cycles back to Nick Vigil being
undressed by Lamar Jackson in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, and he was kind of the the scapegoat of
a bad defense too, Like he was like, oh, you
can't have Nick Vigil out there, and it was all
happen even still in the league, and he was gonna
have his absolute moment. He did it, and he blew
right by Muma Jong Meta who recovers it. Yeah, unbelievable.
What a quote, by the way, after the game from
mckem Davis gay there says that boy saved his job.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Now no one's talking about the miss block. Instead he
gets to recover the fuone. But what would your postgame
story have been about had Joe Burrow not talked about
T Higgins.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Jamar Chase. I mean, in just the continued evolution of
of this of this guy and and really their connection.
I mean, both of those touchdowns are plays that almost
solely come from just elite freak show chemistry. I mean,
and you heard I hadn't seen it. I rewatched some
(27:17):
of the broadcasts and stuff like that yesterday, with which
one Simpson's I do love maning casts. I'm usually a
man and cast guy. When I watched Monday Night Football
and I did go back and check out some of that,
but no talking about and Aikman was even i guess,
on Dallas Radio today talking about Burrows his favorite quarterback
or player in the league and maybe ever, which was great.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, I mean pretty strong words, but you hear him
talking about the anti Smith. Michael's fine, but he was
talking about the elite anticipation of that throw and just
you know, that's something that we've heard them talk about
a lot about.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I remember Jamal trying to teach andre Yoshibash the basics
of that, and Yoshi caught a touchdown on that route
against I believe Kansas City earlier this year. Same type
of thing going right. It's just a chemistry throw that
they've developed over the years. It is truly unstoppable when
they do it like that, like you can't eat. The
ball was far out before Jamar was even at its break.
It shows up right over top of the pylon. He
(28:20):
catches it right there every single time. That is just
elite chemistry stuff. The touchdown at the end again reference
that was from the the same player as the New
Orleans game, right well, knowing where to throw it, knowing
how Jamar is gonna want to react, and his ability
to make that one guy miss in that spot. That's
just stuff of just knowing exactly what you've got. And
it may be a simple play they run all the time,
but their ability to execute it at that level makes
(28:42):
it much more than just a simple play that they
run all the time. And that type of stuff that's
just separating them right now. That would have been their
connection continuing to blossom. Was going to be the story
before all of that happens. It still kind of is,
because it's still the basis of everything that we were talking.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Case's dominant season is an NFL storyline that that you
could you could tap into it at any point. Uh
you podcast with Jay Morrison, who often comes up with
obscure stats or stats that tell a certain story. Has
he looked into whether a team has ever come from
(29:21):
off the graphic or in the hunt to make the postseason?
Has that ever happened? And is this part of the
research motivation? Like, didn't even have us in the hunt?
They got to be in the hunt on Sunday right,
not yet, weren't even on the graphic. They weren't on
the graph.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Should they create a fourth graphic? No? I think you
have to be at least five percent to probably make
the screen. Don't you cover your tracks with like a
fourth graph every day?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
They got to play themselves into the hunts? Probably not,
but just in case or something, we're still in the
we need to play ourselves onto the screen stage. Okay,
way will they be on the screen at kickoff? When
they show it before kick you'll be at the game.
But CBS has it this week, right, so like right
before kickoff and they show the graphic, right and the
(30:05):
Titans aren't going to be on it because they're officially eliminated.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Don't they have to have the Bengals in the hunt
now only on the Bengals Titans feed to try to
sneak some relevance the into that game nowhere else, not
on NBC Sunday Night Football. I think one more week
if they're still alive after you know, after this weekend,
right right, and you get the well, the result between
the Colts and the Broncos will kind of be a
(30:28):
little wash, depends on how you view it, but they'll
still they can still be alive with a win and
you could see it. Then I think they're back onto
the screen. You say, well, you know that that was
my next scene, it's like you read my notes. Look,
when is the well you know moment?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Because I don't think it happened on Monday, right, yeah,
I don't think it happened on Monday. But if if
they win, so that the tragic number is two, a
combination of Denver wins and Bengals losses adding up to
two and they're done. So if if the Bengals win
and the Broncos lose, the tragic number remains a two,
is that the well you know moment? Or do they
(31:05):
have to then get to the Browns game, win that
one and kind of be in the stats.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They got to be setting themselves up for that Denver game.
I think No. I think probably going into the Browns game,
especially if they go and they they look like a
team that has some momentum and they go get it.
Let's say they beat the tent Titans by seventeen, let's
say thirty four to seventeen, and get the result they
like elsewhere. I think then you start to be like,
(31:32):
you know, you could see the Bengals ripping off these
five in a row. You could see that happening, right,
You got to But I don't know that you can
see that right now. They should have lost that game.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Should have I should have They did everything that they've
done all year long until Dallas was like, actually we'll
go ahead and screw this one. So does the blocked
punt and ended up being recovered, Like we've we've you know,
we named famous plays in NFL in Bengals history.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
The what have we settled on with Sam Hubbard? Is
it the Hubbard yard? I mean I I think I
like Hubbard yard dash personally fumbling the jungle head of life.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So if that the block punt that ended up being
recovered is kind of the pivot point. Do we know
what we're gonna call that plays? It would probably end
up with something Simpsons Z would be dope, right, the
nature of the game being kind of known for just
the Simpsons broadcast. I like this piece who wrote about
Brian Callahan and Zach Taylor thank you because this is
(32:28):
about friendship, right, I mean that that's.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I think, I yeah, it's about something that like at
the core is something everyone can relate to, yes, right,
like someone who helped you, someone who poured a lot
of investment into you, and a friendship that kind of
helps you through tough times. And then those tough times
showed up immediately, right, and you and that person that's
just on the text dropping you jokes, the only person
(32:51):
that knows that it's okay to send you the message
when something bad happened to you, you know, like and
and keeps you in the right frame of mind, develops
that sanity and and appreciation and of gratitude for that.
I think everyone can connect with that. And uh, and
that's I originally, you know, wanted to write about them
from the moment that I watched the introductory news conference
(33:14):
of Brian down striking the moment what made him emotional
was Mike Brown, and I was like, well, I need
to know more about that, right, And he's unbelievable. He's
great talking about why that was. But it really turned
into so much more about sort of the two of
them and and and and lifting each other up and
just people that understand what that means. And so I
(33:35):
was kind of, you know, honored to be able to
tell that story because it's really cool, and I think
it's rare, Like the NFL is so uber competitive and
it's so it feels dirty all the time, and the
way that people get everyone's always getting fired and you're
using every advantage you can and people trying to steal
assistance and this day, who's gonna and this is much
(33:56):
more like pure about like just looks like just genuine
good dudes trying to help.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think that there's it
tells a story about who they are, and I want
folks to read it. But but Brian's sort of going
through something similar to what Zach went through year one,
and neither coach enjoying a great season. Right now, when
Luanna Rumo is coaching the defense at stony Brook or
wherever he's gonna, are you gonna write is it gonna
be a similar story?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I don't know if it'll be quite a stony Brook.
I don't know. Gagner, you're not evenna give him.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Francis don't do don Bosco prep, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
T Neck No, probably not, because it's gonna be coaching
the Piles defense next year. Not saying that. I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
That, all right, I know you have to to go
the music they're doing, the Tarrant telling us his time
to go, like TMZ gonna be there tonight.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Oh I hope. I mean if TMZ was there? Do
you ever really know?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
It's a good question National Acquire, like, what's what? What
are we talking about? Like non like you guys, he knews,
he knews.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That would be my best bet. I knew shows like
I don't know. Is Maria Manuno still involved in the
news situation? Is she still there?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I'll tell you what if if she's there tonight? That's
pretty good. It's pretty cools asner. You get like a CNN.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Maybe yeah, maybe what if they send Lache to do
what I don't know, just to be down he's in town.
Stand there, yeah, yes, stand there? Host it. I mean,
I feel like that's the level of crazy Mario Lopez
going to be. That's the level of craziness that we're reaching.
It feels like this press conference needs a host. Can't wait?
All right, man? Thank you as always.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Read Paul's work on the Bengals, Theathletic dot Com, catch
the podcast, the Growler podcast typically on Wednesdays. We talked
with Rick Boring at this time, but we punted him
to four oh five Rick on the Musketeers and the Norse.
Next where a Buffalo Wild Wings? Col Raine, ESPN fifteen thirty,
Cincinnati
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Sports Station, Cincinnati's Family Sports greless butter
Mo Egger News
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