Tim Rice: Technique Can Get In The Way Of Inspiration

Michael Riedel chats with legendary lyricist Tim Rice about his new online songwriting master class.  Rice discusses the art of songwriting and how he developed his craft. For more on his class, visit www.bbcmaestro.com
Christine Nagy was off this week.

Episode Transcript

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iHeartRadio Broadway presents Inside Broadway, thepodcast about everything theater. It's where you
hear what happens from the ticket windowto the stage door, with the stars
and creative forces that make it allcome alive. Here are your hosts,
wo Rs Michael Riedle and Light FM'sChristine Nagy. Hey, welcome to Inside

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Broadway. I'm Michael Riedle my usualco host Christine Nagy. She is out
today and I know she is goingto be deeply, deeply disappointed to miss
our guest. He is the greatsongwriter Tim Rice. Tim, Welcome to
Inside Broadway. How are you?I'm sighed. Thanks, Michael Hope,
you are too good. Well.I wanted to have you on because I

(00:45):
happened to I'm a big BBC fanand I came across this website. It's
called BBC Maestro and you can finda bbcmeistro dot com. And there you
are, Tim Rice, giving amasterclass in songwriting. Have you taught before?
No? Not really. I meanI've obviously answered lots of questions over
the years on songwriting and songs andhow do you write them and all that,

(01:07):
and I'm not sure I have anyanswers, but the BBC are doing
a lot of alleged expert programs orseries in which people in all walks of
life, not just culture and entertainment, I mean gardening and dog walking and
swimming and various other things, andthey ask people who are quite well known

(01:29):
in each category to explain and perhapseducate people in those particular subjects. And
for some reason they alighted on mefor writing songs for theaters. Well,
I find it for them, course, yeah, Well what I find interesting
about and you know, I'm abig fan of yours and all the great
songs from Broadway shows. I do, I guess there is you have the

(01:53):
inspiration. Of course, you justhave to have the knack and the talent,
but you do have to know thecraft. And over the years when
you start that, do you thinkyou're a better lyricist now than you were
when than when you were a kid. Did you learn the craft along the
way? Well, I think I'mprobably technically better in that I'm perhaps more
perfect rhymes. I don't make oneor two elementary mistakes which aren't necessarily mistakes.

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But I think I always feel there'sthere are two graphs in any creative
person's life. One is the graphof experience, which starts at zero and
goes up to one hundred through yourlife. And then the other one is
the graph of enthusiasm and the originality, which starts at one hundred and usually
cuts down to zero by the endof your life. So where those two

(02:42):
lines cross, which I think withme, was probably around about the time
of Evita, maybe a little bitlater, when when you've still got a
lot of youthful enthusiasm and you've gotenough experience to sort of know what you're
doing, that perhaps when you mightbeat your peak. But it's it's it's
interesting that some of the stuff Idid when I was young, I look

(03:05):
back and think, well, I'mnot sure I would have done it that
way today, but it might nothave been as good, because you know,
some of the stuff I did whenI was young was very successful,
and it was perhaps the absolute enthusiasmand conviction that what we were doing was
was was was right, even ifit was even if we didn't know whether
it be bought or not. Ithink that counts for a hell of a

(03:27):
lot, right, And people ifpeople like something, they don't worry too
much about whether the rhymes are allperfect or whether the emphasis of of of
of the syllables completely fits every verseit should do. And I hoped it
does, you know, from dayone of my career. But I think
you can let technique, can itin the way sometimes of inspiration? Yeah?

(03:49):
Yeah, Well I think there's ayou know, in any young writer's
good young writer's career, there isthat sense of palpable sense of energy and
excitement and the drive to make it, to do it, to be successful.
A tricky professor. Yes, yes, I would push your I would
push your where the two lines meeta little a little further in your career.

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And I would have to say oneof my favorite scores of years were
I just think the words are beautifulfit the music so well is Chess.
I think that really is a highwatermark for you in my opinion. Well,
well, that's very kind of you. I sometimes think that myself.
I think it's very It's quite asophisticated show, and it deals with lots

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of different aspects of life, andit was the only one really where I've
dealt with a completely original story.And I remember one theater critic saying,
you know, you said, well, why do you lumber yourself with having
to write the plot as well.It's much easier to take a story that
already exists, be it a truelife story or an adaptation of a book

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or film, and in a wayI can sympathize it that. On the
other hand, I really wanted towrite Chess, and there were various things
and then that affected me in mylife and experiences, and I think it
worked well. It's done pretty well, but it did famously flop on Broadway,
and we do plan to bring itback in twenty twenty five. The

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contracts have been put out and signed, so I think, with luck,
it will come back, and obviouslyit will be a different version from the
version that didn't do very well innineteen eighty eight. But it's one of
those shows that it's got it's gota great score. I mean, those
Abba guys knew how to write musicslightly, and I was very lucky to

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work with them when they were justthey'd sort of wound ABBA down quite deliberately.
They'd had about seven or eight yearsat the top with Abba, which
they never I don't ever expected,but they were so good and they kept
on delivering the hits, and Ithink they felt that they'd kind of done
Ebba, and what they didn't realize, of course that they hadn't is not
bigger than ever. But I caughtthem when they were still creatively, absolutely

(06:06):
at their peak, and they stillaren't in many respects, but they were
creatively at their peak and won't doingABBA. So I was quite lucky to
get them at that point, andit was a great honor to write so
many wonderful things with them. Iremember interviewing Elaine Page and she recalled how
much fun it was being in thestudio with the three of you, and

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you writing the lyric, they're doingthe music, everybody singing, and she
said this, it was just awonderful creative experience, everybody firing on all
cylinders, which is why it wasso painful when the show itself didn't work.
Yes, I think you're right.I mean, it sort of worked
in London, and it's worked inthe sense that it's been done all over
the world in various different versions.But the problem is because the London show

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was altered quite a bit, butit was a hit. I mean he
ran three years and then Broadway.It has changed so drastically that it's now
sort of implied that if anybody appliesto do chess, they can do it
in any version they like. Andit's I've seen it so many different,
completely different treatments. Sometimes it's setin New York rather than in Morano and

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Bangkok. Sometimes it's been set inI've seen it's set in Germany. I've
seen the American player in the finalgame when it should be the Russia.
I mean, it's slightly slightly openhouse on chess, which is a pity
because I mean, I think theoriginal album does it all, and I
would just like to see it stagedas almost in concert form, just which

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it is done occasionally, in factquite a lot in Scandinavia. Just the
actual album, the whole way canstart to finish without too much explanation,
because the more you explain, themore you need to explain, right,
And I think people can just relaxand there's marvelous melodies and emotions, and
if you don't catch every single nuanceof the plot and it's not actually as

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complicated as people make out, thenthere's always some great, great emotional methody
to come along around an anthem orand then so well or pity the child.
Yeah, in a way, youdon't need two complex a story hanging
it all together. No, Iagree with you. I agree because I
did not know. When I wasa kid, I listened to the album

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over and over again. I didn'tknow the plot. What did I know
about the Cold War? I wasten years old. But I just thought
there's a lot of power in thismusic and these songs. Talking to Tim
Rice check out his class BBC maestrobefore we run to him, I want
to ask you, is I don'tknow if with one's harder than the other,
but it seemed to me if Iwere writing songs in a show,

(08:43):
I've got the characters. I knowwhat the characters need or want, or
what they're feeling or expressing, andhow to move the plot. That gives
me a lot of material. Ioften think, is it hard just to
write a standalone pop song that's notconnected to anything else. Yes, I've
always found it hard. I haven'ttried it that much. I mean,

(09:05):
I've had a few goes, butI've always find it harder to write a
song where you don't really have acharacter or a story. Somebody, some
composer, says here's a great tuand how about the lyric? And I'm
not really good at that because Ithink, well, what's the situation?
Sometimes you know one things about it, and of course so many people can

(09:26):
do it brilliantly. I mean,look at people like Paul Simon and you
know, and I mean, justjust to take one brilliant example who can
write fantastic songs and even like songslike The Boxer, they almost tell a
whole musical in four minutes. Andthat is a great skill, which I'm
not sure I've got. But ifI have characters and I know the situation

(09:48):
they're in, then one can writea song which is original. I mean,
to write a song that says Ilove you is I mean, obviously
it's been done brilliantly millions of peopleover the years, but just out of
the blue to find an original wayof saying that, which if you're in
a show and the characters you've establishedhave complex problems which you've touched on,

(10:13):
then then it becomes I love you. But unfortunately there's this problem and that
can often make for a more originallyric. That's just the way I feel
anyway. I always I know someoneyou admired greatly the great lyrics is Sammy
Kahan. I was always amazed atSammy working for the Hollywood Factory. They'd
say, Okay, we need atitle song for a movie. The title

(10:35):
of a movie is three Coins inthe Fountain, and they'd have no idea
what the movie was. The moviewas being filmed, they don't know what
the plot was or anything. AndSammy can knock out three Coins in the
Fountain and it was a hit.I know, a great song. I
think he must have known that thefountain was in Rome. Other than that,
not a lot to go on.All right, it's great catching up
with you, Tim Rice. Checkout BBC, my string your game yep,

(10:58):
check out bat see meistro dot comand you can learn from the master
of how to craft a song.I've known Tim Rice a long long time.
I've interviewed him many times, andhe's such a great interview. He's
just effortlessly charming and fun and hewears his success very lightly. But if
you haven't listened to the musical Chessthat we were talking about, definitely give

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it a listen. The show's beenaround a long time and I would go
back and listen to the original conceptalbum. I agree with Tim. I
think as an album it stands aloneor almost doesn't need a show, But
you got to listen to the originalconcept album and the song One Night in
Bangkok became a hit from that album, and it's operatic and very tuneful,

(11:43):
and it has some of Tim's mostbeautiful lyrics about people who are in love
but for various reasons, they can'tmake that love work. So check out
Chess talk to you next time I'minside Broadway.