CLARENCE A. HAYNES author of THE GHOSTS OF GWENDOLYN MONTGOMERY

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
She opened her eyes, terrified. Something was burning badly. The
stench he said that rolled over to her left her godmother,
the woman who'd raised her for years, was sprawled out,
a crisp, smoldering thing, flesh parched, eyes gone.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Public Library Podcast. Sorry, here's your host
and podcast librarian, award winning poet, future bestselling author, and
host of one of the most listened to radio shows
in America, Helen Little.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Hello, book lovers, and welcome to another episode of the
Public Library Podcast. I'm so excited about today's show for
a lot of different reasons, but namely because Clarence A.
Haynes is here to talk about his amazing book, The
Ghost of Gwendolyn Montgomery.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here and to chat. This is a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, I'm glad you are here. This book is something else.
Tell us what your book about.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
So my book is, uh, We've been calling it an
urban fantasy, glam horror novel. It centers on a high
powered New York City publicist who has a secret mystical past,
and she's putting on a big event at the Booklyn Museum,
a fashion show and it goes terribly, terribly wrong, and
so then that leads us into this big journey about

(01:22):
discovering who she is. A slight spoiler, her real name
is not Gwendolen Montgomery, and it's a constructed identity. And
so we we we we started this journey of discovery.
And then the other they're actually two main characters. The
other character, his name is Phonsie. He's an Afro latinae

(01:47):
queer psychic who runs a Botanica and the South Bronx.
He's in a love triangle between his ex boyfriend and
a ghost. That's all I'll say about that. And he
comes with the warning that ghosts are about to invade
our world, our human and our flesh and blood world,
and so yes, and so that's the heart. That's sort
of how things jump off, and we begin to learn

(02:10):
how these characters, two characters are connected.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Where did this idea? I mean, because that's an idea
right there. Where did this idea come from?

Speaker 1 (02:20):
So you know, that was a journey as well. I
always knew that for my solo debut novel, I wanted
to honor my roots. I'm a native New Yorker. My
family immigrated here. From Panama, and I grew up in
the Bronx during a certain time seventies, eighties, nineties New York,

(02:41):
and so there's a certain flavor. There's certain cultural tidbits,
certain types of music, food, swag, the architecture, just the
fabric of the city. I knew that I wanted to
for my first book. I wanted to capture all of
that as much as I could. But then, I'm a

(03:01):
speculative fiction person. Pretty much everything that I write will
always involve the fantastic in some ways. So that's basically
like you know, fantasy, sci fi, the paranormal, horror genre stuff.
And so my big thing was like how to honor
my love of speculative fiction and also honor my roots,

(03:22):
So that that was what was in my heart. And
then with my publisher, extraordinary Kashan Troutman, once I spoke
to her a bit about this idea, then we really
were able to sit down and and think through what
the story could be, how I how it could be
an asset for her imprint Legacy Lit, and yeah, how

(03:42):
to make it something special. And then the other the
other thing that's in the mix is I wanted to
do something that would very clearly honor powerful, glamorous black women.
You know, I was raised by women the New York
city I grew up, grew up in. I would just
see these you know, fashionable like icons, like just sort

(04:03):
of like strutting down the street, and I was like,
I want my main character to speak to that, even
though then we're going to play with with sort of
you know, these elements of being a glamorous, powerful black woman.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
There were so many things that I mean, I just
went in so many different places. I love books that
are set in New York City for the obvious reason.
And the other day I was on the subway and
I'm like, I.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
Just was like, I know there's a ghosts on this.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
But what I thought was really interesting is you know,
just the stories within the stories that you told.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
What kind of research did you do for this book?

Speaker 3 (04:38):
I mean, did you already know about the mysticism that
is a big part of this book? And how deep
into that did you go? And just how did you
learn all this? Because I learned so much and I
started googling and researching stealing, I am.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I am honored. Stealing is the best compliment ever heard.
And we all and you know, we all do as writers,
right that we like, oh, this thing here, how can
I incorporate that into my work? So I did quite
a bit of research around traditional West African belief systems

(05:17):
that survived the Transatlantic slave trade, how they appeared in
New York and the Americas. But I also grew up
with those traditions. My mom was Christian, but also with
someone who did sometimes have I don't know if I
would say rituals, but a little things that she would

(05:40):
do that spoke to other types of traditions, and certainly
we visited the botanica and lit candles, and I had
an awareness of a lot of these systems from pretty young.
Writing the book, it really expanded my awareness and really
some things that I think we're still a mystery to

(06:01):
me or didn't fully understand, I was able to really
better understand through research. And you know, even though I'm
honoring real world spiritual traditions, everything from as I said,
West African belief systems to traditional Christianity, the mystical system
in this book in many ways is its own thing
I wanted. You know, it is a fantasy novel in

(06:23):
the sense of that it has its own rules. When
it comes to the world building, but at the same time,
it's paying honor, it's honoring, it's paying homage to real
world spiritual traditions.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I have to admit that as I read, my heritage
is also rooted in Africa. I grew up in the South, though,
so my family descended from slavery in the South, and
those generations before you did not talk about you didn't
talk about anything. And I sat there and I thought, Wow,

(06:54):
I wish that they would have held on to at
least one little I mean, there are probably things that
I'm not aware of that they held onto.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
And I'm not that far removed from slavery. My father's
aunts and uncles were born slaves.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
And I was like clinging to some of what I
was learning through the legacy that you had in this book.
This is really cool that I'm learning all of this.
And I fell in love with these characters. And I'm
sure you don't have a favorite because they're your children,
But between Gwendolen and Phonsie, who was more fun to write?

Speaker 1 (07:34):
So it's so interesting you. I was thinking about that,
believe it or not, earlier today. And I don't know
if I can fully answer that, But I what I
was aware of is that the process of writing them,
of creating them, and then letting them tell me who
they are, it was quite different for each of them.

(07:57):
Gwendolyn is a cipher you. It's clear that she's holding
stuff back. We're not sure what exactly it is. And
so the way that we're learning about her is sort
of through her work, through her sort of obsession and
dedication to what she does as a publicist and brand manager,

(08:18):
to this sense of that everything about her has to
be immaculate and she has to look wow, wow wow.
And also why she's so ambivalent about this new man
in her life, this new potential love interest who just
seems wonderful, and there's raging ambivalence for her, and so
we're not quite fully getting what's happening for her. And so,

(08:41):
you know, versus Fonsie, who his emotions are just on
the page. She's like trying to help people. He's doing
his readings in the back of his store and telling
people about their you know, he's meeting someone and helping
her out as she's grieving her recently departed husband, and
he's trying to figure out what he runs romantically and

(09:02):
everything is just there. It's just you're in it, You're
in the mix. And so it was very it two
very different approaches, and I was just very aware, like, oh,
how to make each character nonetheless feel compelling. I think
a lot of people I've noticed are taking to Phonsie
because he's so overtly who he is on the page.
And for Gwendolyn, yeah, most most people are like Phonsie,

(09:24):
and then Gwendolyn's great, yeah yeah. Gwendolen is a little
more like, hmm, what's what's happening for her? With her
I tried my best, though, to show that she also cares,
because she goes out of her way to be there
for her coworkers, for her boss, and for the people
who she does connect with in her closed way. She
is a genuinely nice person, and so I try to

(09:47):
showcase that as well. There's also a bit of role
reversal gender reversal. The male character be the one who's ah,
my emotions I want ah, and the woman is like,
what about my business?

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, that's kind of why I could identify with Gwendolen.
I mean, I know what it is to be that
professional woman who's trying.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
To get ahead? Who shows up looking sharp?

Speaker 3 (10:11):
I mean, but you know, so I could I clearly,
and she was very likable. It's not that she wasn't likable.
And I understood what she was holding inside without knowing
what she was holding inside just the way I read.

(10:31):
It's like, I'll read something like didn't I see something
about didn't I see an easter egg?

Speaker 1 (10:35):
About that?

Speaker 3 (10:37):
I go back and I'm like, ah, so this ties
to this lot which takes me sometimes forever to read
a book. So when I'm just reading reading, I'll just
read through. But with this book, I had to keep
going back, keep going back. I'm like, I want to
know all the secrets before they're revealed. So one of
the things that I also thought was interesting is that
I found a greater story in your book, the idea

(10:58):
of letting go and allowing allowing oneself to just be
be who they are. And I love the analogy that
Gwendolen made about coming out is.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
This what it feels like?

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Was that kind of like you know, this this idea
of self love even, was that sort of an underlying
thing that you thought about as you.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Wrote Absolutely that was probably? Can I say absolutely, one
of the core themes of the book and something that
I was really when I was writing. I was driven
to be like, Okay, I have to like sort of
tell a compelling story and make everything cohere, but it
needs these are the themes. This is one of the

(11:36):
primary themes in which I have to make sure that
I bring home to the reader and be like, Yeah,
we have to really sit with the fullness of who
we are. I am. I've said it before. I am
obsessed with how the past impacts how we live in
our day to day present. And I truly believe we
don't reckon with the past in a way that it

(11:58):
needs to be reckoned with by the way you need
to to grieve or talk things through with others. The
past is going to reckon with us. It's going to
get in the way of us being able to be
our full, authentic, whole selves. And Yeah, for both characters,
I really wanted to sit with what that would look

(12:19):
like for them, both of them. That's sort of their
journey in different ways to really embrace the fullness of
who they are and you know, how they were hurt
and and then ultimately make decisions about how they want
to move through life once they can reckon and reconcile

(12:39):
with all.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
These things, So they weren't the only ones who were
dealing with stuff. I felt like the ghosts were ghosts
were actually way more haunted by things that were left
unresolved than.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
The people were. Talk about creating that energy.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yes, so the in the title you Know the Ghosts
of Ona Montgomery, the ghosts are meant to be both
literal obviously there are are ghosts and spirits lurking in
the book, and a metaphor in terms of you know,
these people things elements of the past that haunt us.

(13:16):
So I wanted to just play with that throughout the
book and including with the actual ghosts themselves. As a
quote unquote horror writer, and I'm sometimes like, I don't
know how horror I am. I'm a fusion of things,
I think, but I'm not necessarily so interested in like
things being grotesque or like, oh we have we have?
I didn't want to. I don't, I don't, I didn't. Yeah,

(13:38):
that's not like my primary thing, right, Like my thing
is always more sort of like what's happening emotionally in
psychologically for characters and figures and entities and so with
the ghost. I was just like, Oh, they're lingering, not
do sort of any sort of curse or incantation. They're
lingering because they're hurt, because they're the things have happened
to them in their past, and they're they're still like, Oh,

(13:59):
how can I how fix things or almost somehow? If
I can like linger like, then the I can like
somehow magically create the past that I want. And that's
just not how things work, and so they're stuck. They're
stuck in this limbo that's not so great.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
So yeah, and sometimes we as humans are stuck in
that limbo.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
One of the things that I loved was how visual
your book is. I mean, I'm a visual person. I'm
a visual learner. I'm a visual manifestor. I see things
and then I see things, and then sometimes I see
things and then I see things.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
My publisher is as well.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
So it's it's interesting because if I could read with
my eyes closed, I would have because it was just
so visual. I could see everything you were saying. When
you write, do you actually see what you're writing?

Speaker 1 (15:01):
I do. And you're the first person to ask me
that or catch that I do. So I literally my
writing process. It's a little unusual and intense. Like once
I start working on something, I usually will sit I
almost like will just sit then all day into the evening,
eight to sixteen hours and just write. But the reason

(15:23):
why I do that is because I become so immersed
in the world that I'm then just even if I'm
like just pacing around in my living room or bedroom,
I'm just seeing the world around me. I'm just seeing
how a particular character would move through a building or

(15:46):
walk down the street and what they would see. And yeah,
and so I feel like I'm in the world, and
then I feel like I need to get that on
a page and so and it's really through writing this book,
I realize that's process that so. Yeah, So the fact
that you caught on like the sort of it's a
very I'm very visually oriented as a writer. It's something that, yes,

(16:11):
it's just I think a byproduct of my particular process.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I recognize it because I do the same thing. And
like I said, I'm very visual. So it's like I
can smell it, I can see it, I can I
can I feel their emotions, all of that, you know,
the colors and even some of the moments in the book.
First of all, I kept thinking, all right, let's get
Jordan Peel in here, because this is this is one

(16:36):
of his he would do this so right.

Speaker 4 (16:40):
But I have to talk about this cover.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
This drew me in completely before I opened the book
and read one single word, because this is a gorgeous
cover and.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
It says so much. It scares me a little bit.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
It it's magnetizing, it's colorful, it's scary, almost demonic, but
it's also kind tell me about this book cover.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yes, And then also for people who have seen the
book cover, of course, there's the woman in the foreground
who represents Gwendolyn. And then a lot of people don't
realize there's an undressed man in the back that he's
meant to look kind of spectral, kind of ghostly, and

(17:30):
he could. There are a couple of men in the
book who are prominent and ghostly. And that's all I'll say.
And so, yes, yes, very we wanted it to be
a shout out once again to my publisher Kashawn Trumpman,
artist Natasha Cunningham, and designer daner Lee. They I sort

(17:51):
of just gave some thoughts about the direction to go
in and then they did the thing.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
They did the thing.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
They did the thing, and particularly they're the target readers,
like they're the people who I was writing for, and
I was like, oh, now I just need to get
out the way, because they're going to do They're going
to do the thing. And so we wanted it's exactly
everything that you said, Helen, and we wanted to sort
of have a combination of elements that would speak to
what's in the book. And so it needed to feel

(18:20):
a bit scary, and it needed to feel a bit
edgy but also sultry. Also exactly what you said, there
still needed to be a warmth. I just think the
whatever like cover gods are out there. I'm just like,
thank you so much. I've been so thrilled.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Well, when there's a book about supernatural and spiritual occurrences
and then you get this which has that whole vibe
and then it pulls you in and I mean, it's
like so many things about my experience reading this book
was like part of what the book was about, which
is I can't explain it, but there's this weird connection
like this a supernatural encounters and occurrences that made sense

(19:06):
to me, and it's funny because there are things in
the book that, oh, I've seen that. The orange sky
for example, remember when I guess it was wildfires and.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
The sky was yes, had.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
You already written that?

Speaker 1 (19:19):
No?

Speaker 4 (19:20):
Okay, good, that would be scary?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, No, But I remembered I remember that, and it
was that was in my brain when I was writing
the book. And even one character alludes to like climate change,
you know, because and that was my way of referencing
when the sky's turned orange in New York. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
So as I'm reading that, I'm like, oh, I've seen this,
and I'm like, wait a minute, maybe that wasn't wild Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
And so I wanted to play with like so for instance,
there there are the book is. The book is basically
just a fusion of a whole bunch of things. It's
the fusion of different genres. I would say a bit
of fantasy, horror, romance, mystery, thriller. But it's also a
fusion of real world history and made up stuff. And

(20:07):
so for instance, I referenced the Burning Bronx of the
late nineteen seventies, which really happened, and then I incorporated
ghosts being involved in that, which I would I would
hope that didn't really happen, but I wanted to play
that up just because I thought it would be so

(20:27):
interesting to be able to reference something that we know,
you know, it's part of New York history, and then
also honor the world building that I needed to do
for the book. And so it's this weird thing that's happening.
And sure enough, one of the early readers, who's younger
and I believe she lives in the Bronx, she asked me.
She was like, at one point, was the Bronx really burning?

(20:50):
I was like, I was like, yes, yes, it was.
There's also some stuff about real worlds Panamanian history in there,
as you know, and another young woman of Panamanian descent
she read it. She said I did not know, for instance,
about the US invasion of Patnama nineteen eighty nine. And
I was like, oh, and she was like, and I
did my research. She's like, oh my gosh, that really happened.

(21:10):
I was like, yep, and you know, so so I
it's the book is all about fusion and playing in
many ways.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
One of the things that I imagine it's like, what
would it be like to go up to a NYPD
officer and say there's ghosts here. I thought that was
I thought that was just such a great visual Do
you have a supernatural or spiritual encounter that helped guide
you with this book?

Speaker 1 (21:36):
None specifically that I can allude to, but I have
had what I call awareness of presence. So, for instance,
before writing this book, I did visit New Orleans and
the French Quarter and I just remember walking just walking

(21:58):
down she and I was like, oh, they're they're ghosts?
Is crazy? Yeah, I was like yeah, I just felt
I was like, okay, yeah, okay, yeah. And I've been
in spaces, smaller spaces where I've had that feeling as well,
And so I can't necessarily say I've had anything any
encounters there like ah, this was definitely, you know, a

(22:19):
meeting with a spirit. But I've had a sense of
things where I would definitely say, oh, there's there's something here.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
This.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
I just always call it presence. There's presence, you know.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
I think that's a great word.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
You know. Going back to the visual part, there's a
painting near the end in the final chapter. You should
commission Gwenn's painting. I thought it was such a beautiful
mental picture. Think about that.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
I mean, it was that's a great idea.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
I think you should have that done and put it
on a wall somewhere, even if it's just for you.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
That was that's a wonderful idea. I didn't think of that. Yeah,
thank you. I tried to, and folks will see there's
a lot of visual artferences made in the book. A.
I did that just because i love all sorts of
cultural expressions. I'm a big arts and culture person in general.
But then I have people I love who are artists,

(23:13):
who I wanted to live with artist. How is that?

Speaker 4 (23:18):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
You get each other, It's good. Yeah, I wanted I
wanted to honor my folks, you know, my people in
as many different ways as possible. And so I was like, okay, yeah,
I'm gonna have a visual one of the supporting characters
of Tudo, he's a visual artist, and he's definitely loved kind. Yeah,
he's he's lovely. He's both kind and kookie, and you

(23:43):
can see, yeah, he does his thing in his own way.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
And I was like, yeah, yeah, that was kind of
rooting for him and you know, having a little bit
of what he wanted. But I didn't see where relationships
were going to end up. So I'm like the way
they ended up. I was happy, yes, but I was
kind of rooting for him.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
It was kind of yes, I was rooting for him
as well, and that was something where the story eventually
told me what it needed to be. So yeah, because
she because Gwendolyn has technically if people. Sometimes I'm not
necessarily uh super obvious about it, but she technically has

(24:20):
four if people very closely. She techt me has four
guys dudes who are interested in her her throughout the
course of the book. I won't say who, but if
people pay.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
So what are you reading these days?

Speaker 3 (24:32):
I know you're busy on book tour and promoting this book,
but you know what, what what's the last thing you
read that just made you go?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
So I've been starting. I started a couple of books.
Meet Me at the Crossroads by Megan Gettings. It's another
speculative fiction work, and it's about these mysterious doors that
open up across the world and these two I believe
their twin system if memory serves me correctly, and they

(25:02):
belong to different spiritual traditions, and wonky things start to
happen in relation to these doors, and so I'm not
sure where she's going yet, but I love the writing
is really captivating, Like I've just been like wow. Then
another book I've started is The Fantasies of Future Things

(25:23):
by Doug Jones about these two men, young men in
Atlanta during the time of when the Olympics were coming
to uh that city, and so it deals with both
their relationship, issues of intimacy between them and then gentrification,

(25:46):
how the city changed as result of the Olympics coming.
And so I've and he's a beautiful writer, Like I
have that one. I know where kind of where it's going.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
But you know, it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
You have been in this business for a long time,
but this is your debut solo novel.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, why wait?

Speaker 4 (26:05):
Why did you wait so long?

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I mean, I know you're an editor, and I know
you worked with Omar and Omar Epps on his books.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
Why why do you wait so long?

Speaker 1 (26:13):
I that's a wonderful question, Ellen that I sometimes ask
myself as I sit in my home and stare at
at the walls and be like, why did you wait? Clarence,
I honestly, I just you know, when I got into business,
I thought my role was going to be Oh, I

(26:34):
will always be around around helping birth other people's work,
and it wasn't. I think over time I began to
be like, oh, actually, maybe I do have something to
say as well, and just sort of listening to that
little voice until it got bigger and bigger, and thankfully
meeting people along the way who encouraged me to do

(26:57):
my thing. You know, one of the people who i'm
before she passed was Octavia Butler. Oh wow, yeah, trailblazing
science fiction metro futurist person. And she had told me
when she met me, even before I, you know, knew
that I was going to start working on novels. She
was like, oh, you should, you should write, you should.

(27:18):
We need people like you. And I had just introduced
myself to someone who's in the industry, and I, yeah,
I do sometimes ask myself, why did I take so
long to listen to Octavia?

Speaker 3 (27:30):
You know, I mean, as I was reading, that kind
of surprised me because speaking of people who have crossed
your paths and influenced you is you don't remember meeting me,
And I'm so glad you did it because it was
over ten years ago and it came about through Janet Hill.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Oh my gosh, and.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
I needed an editor, and I was venturing into this
field and this is what's so interesting. So I finished
writing my debut manuscript that I'm trying to publish. Actually
back in June, I started extending out queries and I'm like,
what was that guy's.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
Name that I worked with?

Speaker 3 (28:15):
And I was racking my brain, racking my brain, racking
my brain. I couldn't remember. I said, I know, I
still have an old email because I don't get rid
of anything. And I'm like, I'll go search. I don't
even know how to search because I don't remember his name.
And so Amy Popel says, oh, I just went to
this great event. You should see this author. His book
is great, blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
And I'm like, Clarence name sounds so familiar. I typed
it in and.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
Oh my goodness, and I'm like, oh my god, he
was so kind and so helpful and just I mean,
you were the best to work with.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
I could cry, Oh.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
My god, Helen, oh my god. I'm in shock, right,
I'm shock right.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Now, do I say something?

Speaker 1 (29:05):
First?

Speaker 4 (29:06):
I want to share this because.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
It was you were so so helpful to me. I
was green as could be. I mean green. I wasn
named green. I was blue and yellow. And you were
kind and thoughtful and helpful, and you really helped me
get whatever I could out of this story that just
wasn't ready. It's in the drawer and I'm going to
go back and and visit Lisa la Grand one other

(29:32):
time and that story.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
And it's coming now. It's sitting here. I'm like, it's
coming back to me. But I didn't put the name
with the face this context. Yeah, until now I'm like,
oh my gosh. You also have to thank you so
much for the kind words, but you also have to
know how I operate, how I work. So much of

(29:57):
that is the result of having Janet Hill Talbert be
my first boss and publishing and my first mentor, because she,
you know, absolutely phenomenal vision, talent, skill set and all
always always always said whatever we do, we always treat

(30:18):
everyone with respect and dignity and grace.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
And you don't always get that in this business, correct,
And you know, for you to be my first real experience,
it was. It was heartwarming and you were so generous
with everything. And we met in the Amtrak station.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Oh my gosh, and we sat around the conference table.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yes, I mean my hair wasn't gray, and it was
like and we had we had we had such a
great chemistry with Yes.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yes, at the time, wasn't what was that HBO show
around the music.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
Business Daniels show?

Speaker 1 (31:02):
No, I'm talking about the Bobby kind of ally. Oh yeah, yeah,
that was out at the time, and I remember Yes talking.
It's all coming back, Oh my gosh, the one season exactly.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
So you know, it's interesting because the presences brought us.
I'm like, wow, this is so interesting because I literally
was just thinking you up and I couldn't remember your name,
and it's like here it is on the cover of
a book.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
And that's one reason I asked, why did it take
you so long to do this?

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Because I already knew you know what you had in you,
just by how you shared it with me.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Thank you, thank you so much. Wow, I'm stunned. I
don't have words. I'm literally like because now it's all
coming right and I'm like, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
So if people want to find you on social media
or your website or like they've read the book and
they want to just send you flowers, how do.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
They find so I am on all most of the socials,
I should say, I'm the one that's easiest to reach
me is Instagram Clarence A. Haynes, no spaces, no periods,
and yeah, I uh, just reach out and let me
know what you think. And particularly I'm very big on
reader engagement, so do my best to respond to as

(32:29):
many people as I can.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
So and before we go, I got to bring up Felix.
Sounds like something else.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Is coming sure dot dot yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Because I'm like, Okay, this is how you do it,
this is how you string somebody.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yes, and you're talking about the epilogue, talk about the epilogue,
and it's clear that the story is continuing.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yes, because you know, this was a book that I
got a book hangover from, and like you get to
the end of me, like, I'm going to miss all
of these characters. I'm going to miss this environment. I
want to know what happens. You know, do Phonsie and
Gwendoln build their relationship back up?

Speaker 4 (33:10):
You know what happens to them?

Speaker 3 (33:11):
And like most of the time, I just figured that
out in my own head and I move on. But
when I get that little little crumbs to say, I'm
gonna find out more.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
There's a there's a and stay tuned and I want
and you know that's part of you know, working with
my editor, that was something that we really sat with
and that I began to realize, like, oh, in terms
of storytelling, you say what you need to say, you
grab the reader, and then you move on so that
they can sit with things like you know, keep it,

(33:43):
keep it moving. And so folks, I'm so happy you
had the hangover experience because that's the intent.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
That's what I think everybody wants to who writes.

Speaker 6 (33:54):
Thank you so much, thank you, Thank you for this book,
thank you for all the kindness you've shown me and
ten years ago that you forgot about, I forgot about,
and you know, thank you so much for just taking
the time to be.

Speaker 4 (34:11):
A part of the podcasting.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Thank you for having me. This was an absolute pleasure,
dream come true. So thank you, Helen. Really appreciate it.
Another show in the books.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Join us for the next episode of the Public Library podcast,
a place to check out books