Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Can you be friends with a patient? I don't think you can, like
outside of the sessions. No,So how how they could be friends with
people who are not patients? Obviouslylike to have you have to live a
life of solitary, so they can't. At no point, can a therapist
(00:24):
be friends with a patient? Iwould bet it's frowned upon. Yeah,
former patient, Oh, if they'renot under your care anymore. Former that's
interesting, former therapist, same samething, yeah, former patient. Still.
The only different would be but itis a former patient, but you're
(00:45):
not a doctor anymore. Oh youleft the profession. Yeah, it's not.
It's not you went to somebody else. Yeah, well you were like,
I'm I'm tired of doing this whatever, I'm going to go work at
a bank. Then I would thinkyou could be friends with us. But
they were your patient. I mean, you may ethically have your own internal
battle there, but that's that's probablyeasier than however, you're certified or advised
(01:07):
to ignore those rules when you're nolonger governed by Okay, but there has
to be a window. You thinkthere's a set amount of time before you
can befriend a former patient. Iwould bet there's a certain amount of time
before you can have sex with apatient. I'm Diane's therapist. Wait,
so you're still a therapist. Yeah, and you want to have sex with
(01:29):
a patient? No, no,no, Diane, I'm I'm a therapist,
right, I'm single. I'm notmarried, I know. And Diane,
Diane, uh is a patient ofmine, is a patient of mine,
And it's flirty, but then shestops coming to me. How much
(01:49):
time has to go by before Ican date her? Man? And how
much time goes by before I canjust be friends with her? Is it
the same window? Friends and intimacy? See? Uh, I mean they're
both intimate relationships. One is justphysical. I know I trapped it there
because you always argue that intimacy isalways penetration. Absolutely, yeah, no,
(02:09):
but I took the high road here, thank you. I bet.
I bet your friends is not asfrowned upon as a sexual relationship. You
think there's an actual you think there'sa recommended amount of time. What if
you were grooming them the entire well, the life of your relationship inside the
(02:35):
therapy room. That's the That's great. That's where I bet everybody everybody's grooming.
I want to do that because itthen hurts my entire colleague base.
Oh I disagree, wait colleague,like other therapists, Yeah, a story
comes out about therapists who eventually endsup with a patient. That doesn't bother
me. You question everything that wassaid to that patient over the course of
(02:59):
their her appointments. I wouldn't dothat. I wouldn't do that. I
would just look at it and golisten. The heart can't help with the
heart likes listen. I know aformercologist who would never even say hi to
a patient in public unless they saidhigh first. Oh, that was just
standard policy, Yes, to avoidthe awkwardness of simon saying how do you
(03:23):
know him? You know, butthere's no way that's him, or there's
no way that's a that's a law. Because doctor t I would see Jackie
and I at dinner and she wouldcome over and say Hi, I know,
but it took me me, like, how do you know who that
is? I'd be like, oh, she sees my wife's lagoon. I
think it was also because he wasa male kynecologist. Yeah, but that
doesn't bother me. I don't careif you're a man you see a maleecologist.
(03:47):
If I were a woman. No, you're a lot of women won't.
Oh I would. Yeah, Idon't care. So I'm just saying
people may have their own. That'seasy for me to say, Yeah,
I don't know now trying to thinklike just in general. That's why Kristen
for years picked none. Yeah,so people may have their own. Yeah,
okay, that's fine internal set up. But I can't get to if
(04:11):
like, let let's say I don'tknow what that timeline is, like six
months, I have no idea sixthe no, no, you mispronounced it,
sex months, the no, whateverthat is, though, But I
wouldn't I wouldn't assume they were groomy. I really I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't assume that it was agrooming procedure. And are you reaching
out as the former therapist? Well, I don't know how that goes.
I don't know who's got the extraut instead. Yeah, like somebody might
(04:36):
reach out being like, oh,well I still have their information from when
they were part of my like clientdatabase, So let me just send an
email say hey, how's it going, as opposed to wait, who's therapist
emailing the patient? As opposed tomaybe like you by chance or is dating
Well maybe it starts out as friendly. God, it's just a slippery slosh.
(04:57):
Yeah, it doesn't. Kind ofleaves bad. Take seen Diane,
haven't seen you in a while?Wonder if you want to get together for
some drinks? Like why is thatbad from your former therapist? That's oh,
I'm sorry, get together as drinks, comma as friends? Okay,
oh okay. I really enjoyed theconversations we had. I mean I really
enjoyed you as a person, andI know that you you haven't I haven't
seen you as a patient in whatsix weeks? So weeks? Now?
(05:21):
It wasn't well, well, Idon't know what the rule is. By
the way, rules you just wantto use the word sex instead of six.
I haven't seen you since last week. I thought maybe sex days.
But by the way, I don'tknow that there's a problem with going like,
so we're i'm your, i'm youri'm your i'm your your therapist,
right and not as a date,but as friends. And you've been seeing
(05:42):
me for three years, right andeverything school and I'd be like, oh,
hey, you know what I justheard from my buddy. Coastguard Kurt
can't go with me to the hockeygame tonight. You want to go.
Remember they got rules about bags acapital one. Leave all your baggage at
your new doctors. No, whycan't? Why can't I be friends with
a patient? I just think itenters into a questionable territory. You may
(06:08):
be allowed. I'm not saying thatyou would lose whatever licensing you have.
I'm good with it, No,I am. But I worry about you
because is it just friends? Ifit's just friends, I'm cool with it.
I think I'm cool with dating.Not while you're doing it like the
sessions, hope, No, no, like there has to be like and
(06:32):
I don't. I don't know ifthere is, like a real like guideline.
There has to be, but youyou you can't if it's if it's
if it's sexual, then you can'tbe a patient. But friends, you
be friends during the sessions when you'restill that, I'm good with No.
Like Ernie, he came over anddid no no, no, wait,
(06:55):
hold on why on Monday did Isay his name? Nobody referenced it.
Every day this week Ernie comes overChristian Yes, no, no, no,
I know, but he comes overto do some wiring. Right,
So This is like, I'm givingyou a real scenario. Am I paying
him for this? He came overas a favor, right but Saturday night?
Right but when he came over andwas doing work for you, whether
you paid him or not, that'sbetween you and Ernie. I gave him
(07:16):
a bottle of one, so youpaid him. So when he came over,
did you go, No, you'renot my friend right now? So
why do you have to Why can'tyou be friend just because of that profession?
Why can't you be friends? Ifyou ever call back to Monday's conversation,
I told you I was very proudthat in the almost fifteen years I've
lived in that house, I've nevercalled on him for electrical reasons. Doesn't
(07:39):
matter to me. You don't mixthose two things. You don't mix and
neighbors and job. I do allthe time. You're the one that told
me not to do that. Ohnever mind, that was your advice moving
into a neighborhood. We're like,never ever ask a favor of someone that
is tied to their career. Isaid that, Yes, Oh I changed.
(08:03):
Kids go to college and you turninto a huge pussy the where am
I going? Line five? Hi, Elliott the Morning. Hi. Hi,
who's this. I'm not gonna saymy name. I was a client
of a therapist who tried to befriends after I had to move out of
(08:26):
the state, and he was like, oh, like, we could still
stay in touch, we could befriends and just get this app. It's
called Words with Friends, right,and we can chat on there, and
we can play games, and wecan stay in touch and I'll i'll help
you through your problems as you transitionto a new place. That's nice.
(08:46):
And then yeah, there's no suchthing as being friends with your clients.
It turned like he got very likehe turned it into like an intimate thing.
And apparently I'm not the first personthat he did this either. He
lost his license, Yeah, becausehe was like, like, like Tyler
(09:11):
said, he was like grooming peopleto be his friends and then like turning
it into something not professional. Isn'tthe weird weird Words with Friends angle kind
of like me, No, it'sit's it. I think he's trying to
make it look innocent, but underline, it's creepy, right, okay baby,
(09:33):
right? And and because you likeyou can chat, there's like a
chat area on there, and soI think it was like his way of
being able to like hide it fromhis wife. Yeah, it's more innocent
than being like, oh add meon snapchat, you know so, And
he ended up losing his license.By the way, are you seeing a
new therapist about being a tattletale?Absolutely not. I actually have not been
(09:56):
able to go back to therapy becauseof him. Oh sorry, I didn't
mean to make the I mean,just go what's about your car break?
Right? Oh well, I'm sorryto hear that. That obviously that I
don't like to hear the But youdefinitely cannot be friends with your therapist.
(10:16):
You tell them way too much,like none of your Like, sure,
I guess your best friends know alot about you, but they don't know
that much about you. Can Ican? I ask you this though,
and maybe you can't separate the two. And if you can't, that's fine.
If it would have really been afriendly, platonic friendship, do you
think you would have been okay withthat? But it was because it took
kind of an intimate turn. Yeah. But that's the thing, is like,
(10:41):
when you tell somebody all of thosethings, I think that it's hard
for it not to become that waybecause you know something like you tell your
spouse everything, don't you. So, I mean like I would like I
mean, sure I would be friendswith a therapist, but my like my
therapist would not be my friends.Yeah, I got you, that makes
(11:01):
sense. But because again he thankyou, ma'am. And again I'm sorry
I made light there for a second. I don't mind. Hold on,
Kristin, Let's get her a shirt. Hold tight, one second, hold
on one second? Please, no, no, but you know what I
mean, Like it started friendly,but he couldn't like he caught, he
caught feels what I wanted to playbatter up with her? Katie writes,
(11:26):
Nope, nope and nope, nofriends, no relationships with former patients,
and also never say hi first inpublic. But you know what's weird,
though, is you You You investso much in telling them everything about your
life. I guess if you're doingtherapy right, But you can't be friends
(11:52):
with them, but you you youtrust them with every nook and cranny of
your life. But you're telling mewhen it's time to be friends with somebody,
you can't. You can't be friendswith the person who knows you better
than probably eighty percent of the peoplethat you know, is that safe to
be so vulnerable? It's just it'sscary what could happen to you then,
(12:16):
whether that relationship is just friends.No, you're right, and you know
what. And that's why I don'ttell my spouse everything. I don't want
to be that vulnerable or turns intosomething else because you've told that person so
much. Maybe don says, Ialso don't think I would be a good
therapy patient. Why. I justI don't think. I don't think I
(12:41):
would. I don't not that Iwouldn't be honest, but I think that
I would not be honest by omission, Like I don't think like if they
were like, tell me everything aboutA I think I would be very guarded
in what I said. But maybeit would just take you time. Did
they deal with that lot? Ye? No, that could be. That
could be. I also feel likeI would want to direct the conversation.
(13:05):
Sometimes it seems like, no,I've never done it, but I know
from seeing it with my daughter.Sometimes it seems like they do let the
patient go the places that the exchangeis ending up, and you're like,
but it's so expensive, can youtalk more? That's the other thing I
feel by the way, I'd bethe perfect patient. I would spend ten
(13:28):
years telling you nothing and they wouldbe like, this is great. I
essentially get an hour off and I'mgetting paid and this a hole doesn't want
to tell me any But if you'regoing to go for ten years, you've
got to be getting something out ofit. You wouldn't keep going and paying
if you weren't feeling like you gotsomething. Maundated. It's an hour of
like human touch well no, no, no, not physical human understanding.
(13:54):
Yeah, or at least you perceiveit that way. Sure, Dawn is
throwing out a number because you saidyou said six months to start, or
that was what you thought you did. No, but do you still do
you still think? Could you?Do you think you could argue ethically?
Six months is okay for friends orfor well friends, I don't care about
(14:15):
for an intimate partner, yes,yeah, six months down says post termination.
Most have to wait three years,three years. It does not specify
the odds or they're going to findsomeone else if the relationship is just friends.
(14:35):
No, three years is for whatkind of loser therapist wants to be
friends with? Patients get over likego find find elsewhere. Yeah, like,
so it is sex every relationship.To me, it's going to be
sexual the by the way, that'show I look at every relationship. That's
weird. I'm talking specifically about no, no man, but that I disagree
(14:56):
with that. I disagree with that. You can you don't know where you
meet people like you meet. Notall your patients are going to be friends.
You come across one or two andyou're like, this guy's awesome.
Man, Like he's going through thesame crap I am. I'd rather be
that former gynecologist and have to explainwhere we met versus me tell people they
used to be my patient. Yeah, that doesn't bother me. Oh so
(15:20):
your new friends like cuckoo no,no, no, but three years to
be to have some whether it's whetherit's friendly or sexual relationship. Don does
not say that's way too long.So the person I'm interested in I can't
pursue for three years. They'll bemarried and have a kid by the time
(15:41):
I get there. I was justfriends, the friends. You gotta start
day one words with friends, said, and then she turned into a tattletale
line four Hi Elliott the morning Elliott, Yes, Hi, Hi Rechel,
I'm a behavior analyst. Who soI do a behavioral analyst. Oh,
(16:04):
yes, so I do behavioral therapyfor kids on the autism spectrum. But
basically I'm a mental health professional andwe have a code of we have a
code of ethics where you have towait two years before you can have a
romantic or sexual relationship with a formerclient. And in this case, it
(16:27):
wouldn't be obviously the kids that we'retreating, but we do do parent training
and have lots of interaction with theparents, so I know, I know
that it's happened. I definitely havepeople's moms that I've befriended that I worked
really closely with, but and Icontinued to communicate with them after we stopped
(16:52):
working together, But our friendships arebased around their child, right that I
treat it like I just checked inand say, hey, how are they
doing? Oh? Yeah, butyou're not going out for what? Okay,
so you're I mean, you're justdoing a kind follow up, but
you're not going like, hey,let's yeah, you know what, it's
frye and and Scott's making froze.Let's go over and have some drinks.
(17:15):
You're not doing that, No,no way. And when you're treating them.
The reason that you can't be friendswith them is because it creates a
dual relationship. So you're their friends, but you're also a dual relationship g
U A L. Yeah, Iknow. So. So you're treating them,
(17:38):
but you're also their friends, andwhen you need to make decisions about
treatment, you might be hesitant tosuggest them because you don't want to offend
them, whereas if it's not yourfriends, you feel more comfortable. So
there can you argue? Can Iargue that where wouldn't you be more wouldn't
(17:59):
you be more apt to go aboveand beyond for a friend than a than
a customer? Well? No,well erle. This thing that happens is
that you when you're in a friendship, you start to do things like do
each other favors, you know,buy each other drinks, get each other
(18:19):
presents, stuff like that, Andthen he might end up in a situation
where you feel indebted to them insome way, and so you stren't making
clear decisions anymore like professional decisions.See, because I have I have friends,
not none of them are are mydoctors, but I have friends who
(18:40):
are doctors who have just flat outtold me they won't get me pills.
Well that's good. Yeah no,but that's what I mean, like you
yeah, and I'm not talking likebad pills, just like like vicatin and
stuff, but the you know killers, yeah no, no. But because
they know their things. So ifyou were if you were my therapist,
and I was like, oh,hey, you know what, like I
(19:00):
know, I got you some giftsand stuff, how about a little,
if you said no, I wouldunderstand that. I'd be like, you
know what, that's that's part ofthe job, listen. I don't give
everybody a teach right well, andsome people have those boundaries and some people
don't. So I think that's whythey have those rules is because some people
aren't that strong. But you're tellingme the rule is two years before I
(19:23):
can pursue you sexually. Correct.And I don't treat anyone within four blocks
of my home either, oh,so that you're less likely to run into
them, exactly like I had.My neighbor across the street asked me to
treat their son, and I waslike, I can't because you know everything
(19:45):
about my life, like you seeme coming and going, and all of
a sudden that I do, andI need to be private, you know,
and have my own I want tosay one we're saying sorry, go
ahead, no, no, no, you go ahead, you go ahead.
I was just gonna say, youguys were talking about dating therapists,
and I just wanted to say,you know, as a behar An list
(20:07):
that we have lots of strategies thatwe use to shape behavior, and I
use them on people I date,on my child, on my family.
Yeah. No, no, Iwould imagine you would. Yeah, I
would imagine it's got to be sosecond nature that you would try to you
would try to like mind meild meor something like that. Yeah, we
(20:32):
definitely, we definitely do use ourstrategy use it. Can I ask you
this though, at the end ofat that once that two year window closes,
is it? And and then youcould be then you can have sex
with a patient former patient? Doesit matter who? Does it matter who
initiates? Like? Can I emailyou like on my last day my last
(20:52):
day? You're like, you knowwhat, Elliott, We've come to the
end of our of our sessions.You're in a good place. If you
need me reach back. If Ilooked at you with a wink and said,
oh, you'll hear from me twoyears from today, Like, it
can go either way. You canemail me or I can email you.
Yeah, good, okay, good, Yeah, And we tell them in
the orientation you need to understand thatI cannot have that's relationship with you until
(21:19):
two years after I've treated you.You just lay it down so that they
know, oh wow, yeah,but it's definitely happens. You know what.
I never realized I would never doit. But no, no,
and that listen, of course,because you would think most wouldn't. But
obviously there's some bad apples. Butyou know what, I didn't realize a
(21:41):
thank you, ma'am. I didn'trealize how much behavioral therapist and DJ have
in common. Okay, wait,so is the neighborhood thing. I never
even heard of that, but thatmakes sense. I feel like that radius
should be larger. Yeah, fourblocks. You live in a city,
Yeah four blocks? Is it much? This is interesting from Instagram. Yes,
(22:07):
the American Psychological Association for bidge sexualintimacies until at least two years after
the termination of therapy. That's whatshe said. That's what she said.
But then, how about this.The American Psychiatric Association says sexual activity with
a current or former patient is unethical, that's it. No, so never
(22:33):
Oh, I like the first one. So you should be a psychologist.
I'm a psychologist, not what psychologistiatrist? Is it? A psychiatrist that can
prescribe medication, they're trained in medicine. Yeah, it's funny. I want
a psychiatrist, but I'm more I'mmore liking the psychologist route. So there's
no A psychiatrist can never diddle it? Can they be friends with it?
(22:59):
Oh my god, I'm here totalk about the diddling. Not everything is
that, you guy. Everything foryou guys is sexual. You're the one
that said that you look at everyrelationship with the potential. It's almost like
when you get the win probability insports, you have a graph of sex
question mark. Yes, but maybe, but not with doctors. What am
(23:22):
I at say again, that's oursex probability line? Twah Hi, elliot
in the morning. Hello, Yeah, Hi? Who's this? Ah?
Hi? I mean it's Samantha.Yes, Samantha. What can I do
for you? So? I wasactually in the hospital a couple of years
(23:45):
ago, and I had a therapistand the psychiatrist, and I enjoyed the
service that they gave me. Somuch that I actually six months after my
hospitalization, I began working alongside Ihad with my therapist. But we're not
allowed to have any sort of communication, Like I'm not allowed to go and
(24:07):
physically talk to her, Like ifI have a problem, I have to
go to somebody else. She'll sometimeslike check in with me just to make
sure, you know, like Iam doing okay, but like, no,
I'm not doing is this is thislike a physical therapist? No,
this is behavioral health. Oh ohno, you said hospital I went physical,
But well you didn't have to saythat. I figured it out the
(24:34):
Yeah, wait so but that justout of curiosity? Why did they hire
you, like knowing that you listen, I'm sure you're a great employee.
You sound like a great person.Why why did they Why did they hire
you if they knew that there wasgoing to be like this one office that
you can never go into. Sothey have a rule to where like if
you're originally a patient, if youwant to have like an employment job there,
(25:00):
you have to wait at least likesix months, depending upon how your
treatment went. Like my like,my treatment went very well and I didn't
show signs of you know, beinglike a hazard to anybody. I was
just dealing with something, you know, with tragic in that time, so
they they knew how I was asa person. So I just had to
(25:22):
wait like six months after I wasout of treatment. And I have always
wanted to work in that field tohelp other people that you know, want
to do something similar like myself.And you know, I like that story.
I like that story a lot.And you're right, they know you,
you know what I mean, Soif they know the kind of person
you are, I like everything aboutthat. I do think there's part of
(25:42):
it that's weird, but I understandit where like you can't go talk to
like that one doctor, but Ilike that story. I really like that
a lot. Yeah, I can'tgo to her like like we're close,
Like I had a really good relationshipwith her when when she was my doctor.
So like if I do have anissue to where, you know,
like if I just need some sortof like break, she'll let me go
(26:07):
and talk to her, but sheshe can't give me advice like I can
talk to her finally be like,oh, you know, I'm having such
a bad day. You know,she's allowed to like listen to you know,
things like that, but if Igo to her and say, oh,
well, you know, like I'mreally depressed about you know so,
and so she has to like directme to go to somebody else because she
does know me. She knows mybackground, and you know, she knows
(26:29):
things that could possibly trigger me.So that's why, like it will be
like a conflict of interest. Igotcha. It's good and taking work away
from another doctor interesting. I likethat. All right, very good,
very good. I appreciate it.Thank you, ma'am, thank you,
thank you. All right? Recappsychiatrist noah, never Yeah, well they
(26:53):
say it's not ethical. That doesn'tthere's really no timeline there. But I
have to wait too years for sex. There was actually more for the psychologist.
Wait, psychiatrist or psychiat chitatrist.We know was well, they say
it's unethical. Let me go backbecause you're gonna be well, you're looking
it up. Can I use themicrophone to just share a message with one
(27:15):
person? Just one person? It'sday three, right, Fix the goddamn
phones anyway, yes, save usfor therapy. I can't. I'm bet
now he said he doesn't need it. I'm at five months in twenty eight
days. Do you know how Horny, I would be at five months and
(27:36):
twenty eight days. I would havehad that email written for a month.
Oh, I got to hit send. That's someone that's going to need to
see your drafts. And if anythingis written to a former patient with a
countdown clide, you're losing your lessons. Yes, there was more, at
(27:56):
least two years after the termination oftherapy, and say that even the and
it's acceptable only in the most unusualcircumstances. What's unusual, bro? You know that
Can you be friends with a patient? I don't think you can, like
outside of the sessions. No,So how how they could be friends with
people who are not patients? Obviouslylike to have you have to live a
life of solitary, so they can't. At no point, can a therapist
(00:24):
be friends with a patient? Iwould bet it's frowned upon. Yeah,
former patient, Oh, if they'renot under your care anymore. Former that's
interesting, former therapist, same samething, yeah, former patient. Still.
The only different would be but itis a former patient, but you're
(00:45):
not a doctor anymore. Oh youleft the profession. Yeah, it's not.
It's not you went to somebody else. Yeah, well you were like,
I'm I'm tired of doing this whatever, I'm going to go work at
a bank. Then I would thinkyou could be friends with us. But
they were your patient. I mean, you may ethically have your own internal
battle there, but that's that's probablyeasier than however, you're certified or advised
(01:07):
to ignore those rules when you're nolonger governed by Okay, but there has
to be a window. You thinkthere's a set amount of time before you
can befriend a former patient. Iwould bet there's a certain amount of time
before you can have sex with apatient. I'm Diane's therapist. Wait,
so you're still a therapist. Yeah, and you want to have sex with
(01:29):
a patient? No, no,no, Diane, I'm I'm a therapist,
right, I'm single. I'm notmarried, I know. And Diane,
Diane, uh is a patient ofmine, is a patient of mine,
And it's flirty, but then shestops coming to me. How much
(01:49):
time has to go by before Ican date her? Man? And how
much time goes by before I canjust be friends with her? Is it
the same window? Friends and intimacy? See? Uh, I mean they're
both intimate relationships. One is justphysical. I know I trapped it there
because you always argue that intimacy isalways penetration. Absolutely, yeah, no,
(02:09):
but I took the high road here, thank you. I bet.
I bet your friends is not asfrowned upon as a sexual relationship. You
think there's an actual you think there'sa recommended amount of time. What if
you were grooming them the entire well, the life of your relationship inside the
(02:35):
therapy room. That's the That's great. That's where I bet everybody everybody's grooming.
I want to do that because itthen hurts my entire colleague base.
Oh I disagree, wait colleague,like other therapists, Yeah, a story
comes out about therapists who eventually endsup with a patient. That doesn't bother
me. You question everything that wassaid to that patient over the course of
(02:59):
their her appointments. I wouldn't dothat. I wouldn't do that. I
would just look at it and golisten. The heart can't help with the
heart likes listen. I know aformercologist who would never even say hi to
a patient in public unless they saidhigh first. Oh, that was just
standard policy, Yes, to avoidthe awkwardness of simon saying how do you
(03:23):
know him? You know, butthere's no way that's him, or there's
no way that's a that's a law. Because doctor t I would see Jackie
and I at dinner and she wouldcome over and say Hi, I know,
but it took me me, like, how do you know who that
is? I'd be like, oh, she sees my wife's lagoon. I
think it was also because he wasa male kynecologist. Yeah, but that
doesn't bother me. I don't careif you're a man you see a maleecologist.
(03:47):
If I were a woman. No, you're a lot of women won't.
Oh I would. Yeah, Idon't care. So I'm just saying
people may have their own. That'seasy for me to say, Yeah,
I don't know now trying to thinklike just in general. That's why Kristen
for years picked none. Yeah,so people may have their own. Yeah,
okay, that's fine internal set up. But I can't get to if
(04:11):
like, let let's say I don'tknow what that timeline is, like six
months, I have no idea sixthe no, no, you mispronounced it,
sex months, the no, whateverthat is, though, But I
wouldn't I wouldn't assume they were groomy. I really I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't assume that it was agrooming procedure. And are you reaching
out as the former therapist? Well, I don't know how that goes.
I don't know who's got the extraut instead. Yeah, like somebody might
(04:36):
reach out being like, oh,well I still have their information from when
they were part of my like clientdatabase, So let me just send an
email say hey, how's it going, as opposed to wait, who's therapist
emailing the patient? As opposed tomaybe like you by chance or is dating
Well maybe it starts out as friendly. God, it's just a slippery slosh.
(04:57):
Yeah, it doesn't. Kind ofleaves bad. Take seen Diane,
haven't seen you in a while?Wonder if you want to get together for
some drinks? Like why is thatbad from your former therapist? That's oh,
I'm sorry, get together as drinks, comma as friends? Okay,
oh okay. I really enjoyed theconversations we had. I mean I really
enjoyed you as a person, andI know that you you haven't I haven't
seen you as a patient in whatsix weeks? So weeks? Now?
(05:21):
It wasn't well, well, Idon't know what the rule is. By
the way, rules you just wantto use the word sex instead of six.
I haven't seen you since last week. I thought maybe sex days.
But by the way, I don'tknow that there's a problem with going like,
so we're i'm your, i'm youri'm your i'm your your therapist,
right and not as a date,but as friends. And you've been seeing
(05:42):
me for three years, right andeverything school and I'd be like, oh,
hey, you know what I justheard from my buddy. Coastguard Kurt
can't go with me to the hockeygame tonight. You want to go.
Remember they got rules about bags acapital one. Leave all your baggage at
your new doctors. No, whycan't? Why can't I be friends with
a patient? I just think itenters into a questionable territory. You may
(06:08):
be allowed. I'm not saying thatyou would lose whatever licensing you have.
I'm good with it, No,I am. But I worry about you
because is it just friends? Ifit's just friends, I'm cool with it.
I think I'm cool with dating.Not while you're doing it like the
sessions, hope, No, no, like there has to be like and
(06:32):
I don't. I don't know ifthere is, like a real like guideline.
There has to be, but youyou you can't if it's if it's
if it's sexual, then you can'tbe a patient. But friends, you
be friends during the sessions when you'restill that, I'm good with No.
Like Ernie, he came over anddid no no, no, wait,
(06:55):
hold on why on Monday did Isay his name? Nobody referenced it.
Every day this week Ernie comes overChristian Yes, no, no, no,
I know, but he comes overto do some wiring. Right,
So This is like, I'm givingyou a real scenario. Am I paying
him for this? He came overas a favor, right but Saturday night?
Right but when he came over andwas doing work for you, whether
you paid him or not, that'sbetween you and Ernie. I gave him
(07:16):
a bottle of one, so youpaid him. So when he came over,
did you go, No, you'renot my friend right now? So
why do you have to Why can'tyou be friend just because of that profession?
Why can't you be friends? Ifyou ever call back to Monday's conversation,
I told you I was very proudthat in the almost fifteen years I've
lived in that house, I've nevercalled on him for electrical reasons. Doesn't
(07:39):
matter to me. You don't mixthose two things. You don't mix and
neighbors and job. I do allthe time. You're the one that told
me not to do that. Ohnever mind, that was your advice moving
into a neighborhood. We're like,never ever ask a favor of someone that
is tied to their career. Isaid that, Yes, Oh I changed.
(08:03):
Kids go to college and you turninto a huge pussy the where am
I going? Line five? Hi, Elliott the Morning. Hi. Hi,
who's this. I'm not gonna saymy name. I was a client
of a therapist who tried to befriends after I had to move out of
(08:26):
the state, and he was like, oh, like, we could still
stay in touch, we could befriends and just get this app. It's
called Words with Friends, right,and we can chat on there, and
we can play games, and wecan stay in touch and I'll i'll help
you through your problems as you transitionto a new place. That's nice.
(08:46):
And then yeah, there's no suchthing as being friends with your clients.
It turned like he got very likehe turned it into like an intimate thing.
And apparently I'm not the first personthat he did this either. He
lost his license, Yeah, becausehe was like, like, like Tyler
(09:11):
said, he was like grooming peopleto be his friends and then like turning
it into something not professional. Isn'tthe weird weird Words with Friends angle kind
of like me, No, it'sit's it. I think he's trying to
make it look innocent, but underline, it's creepy, right, okay baby,
(09:33):
right? And and because you likeyou can chat, there's like a
chat area on there, and soI think it was like his way of
being able to like hide it fromhis wife. Yeah, it's more innocent
than being like, oh add meon snapchat, you know so, And
he ended up losing his license.By the way, are you seeing a
new therapist about being a tattletale?Absolutely not. I actually have not been
(09:56):
able to go back to therapy becauseof him. Oh sorry, I didn't
mean to make the I mean,just go what's about your car break?
Right? Oh well, I'm sorryto hear that. That obviously that I
don't like to hear the But youdefinitely cannot be friends with your therapist.
(10:16):
You tell them way too much,like none of your Like, sure,
I guess your best friends know alot about you, but they don't know
that much about you. Can Ican? I ask you this though,
and maybe you can't separate the two. And if you can't, that's fine.
If it would have really been afriendly, platonic friendship, do you
think you would have been okay withthat? But it was because it took
kind of an intimate turn. Yeah. But that's the thing, is like,
(10:41):
when you tell somebody all of thosethings, I think that it's hard
for it not to become that waybecause you know something like you tell your
spouse everything, don't you. So, I mean like I would like I
mean, sure I would be friendswith a therapist, but my like my
therapist would not be my friends.Yeah, I got you, that makes
(11:01):
sense. But because again he thankyou, ma'am. And again I'm sorry
I made light there for a second. I don't mind. Hold on,
Kristin, Let's get her a shirt. Hold tight, one second, hold
on one second? Please, no, no, but you know what I
mean, Like it started friendly,but he couldn't like he caught, he
caught feels what I wanted to playbatter up with her? Katie writes,
(11:26):
Nope, nope and nope, nofriends, no relationships with former patients,
and also never say hi first inpublic. But you know what's weird,
though, is you You You investso much in telling them everything about your
life. I guess if you're doingtherapy right, But you can't be friends
(11:52):
with them, but you you youtrust them with every nook and cranny of
your life. But you're telling mewhen it's time to be friends with somebody,
you can't. You can't be friendswith the person who knows you better
than probably eighty percent of the peoplethat you know, is that safe to
be so vulnerable? It's just it'sscary what could happen to you then,
(12:16):
whether that relationship is just friends.No, you're right, and you know
what. And that's why I don'ttell my spouse everything. I don't want
to be that vulnerable or turns intosomething else because you've told that person so
much. Maybe don says, Ialso don't think I would be a good
therapy patient. Why. I justI don't think. I don't think I
(12:41):
would. I don't not that Iwouldn't be honest, but I think that
I would not be honest by omission, Like I don't think like if they
were like, tell me everything aboutA I think I would be very guarded
in what I said. But maybeit would just take you time. Did
they deal with that lot? Ye? No, that could be. That
could be. I also feel likeI would want to direct the conversation.
(13:05):
Sometimes it seems like, no,I've never done it, but I know
from seeing it with my daughter.Sometimes it seems like they do let the
patient go the places that the exchangeis ending up, and you're like,
but it's so expensive, can youtalk more? That's the other thing I
feel by the way, I'd bethe perfect patient. I would spend ten
(13:28):
years telling you nothing and they wouldbe like, this is great. I
essentially get an hour off and I'mgetting paid and this a hole doesn't want
to tell me any But if you'regoing to go for ten years, you've
got to be getting something out ofit. You wouldn't keep going and paying
if you weren't feeling like you gotsomething. Maundated. It's an hour of
like human touch well no, no, no, not physical human understanding.
(13:54):
Yeah, or at least you perceiveit that way. Sure, Dawn is
throwing out a number because you saidyou said six months to start, or
that was what you thought you did. No, but do you still do
you still think? Could you?Do you think you could argue ethically?
Six months is okay for friends orfor well friends, I don't care about
(14:15):
for an intimate partner, yes,yeah, six months down says post termination.
Most have to wait three years,three years. It does not specify
the odds or they're going to findsomeone else if the relationship is just friends.
(14:35):
No, three years is for whatkind of loser therapist wants to be
friends with? Patients get over likego find find elsewhere. Yeah, like,
so it is sex every relationship.To me, it's going to be
sexual the by the way, that'show I look at every relationship. That's
weird. I'm talking specifically about no, no man, but that I disagree
(14:56):
with that. I disagree with that. You can you don't know where you
meet people like you meet. Notall your patients are going to be friends.
You come across one or two andyou're like, this guy's awesome.
Man, Like he's going through thesame crap I am. I'd rather be
that former gynecologist and have to explainwhere we met versus me tell people they
used to be my patient. Yeah, that doesn't bother me. Oh so
(15:20):
your new friends like cuckoo no,no, no, but three years to
be to have some whether it's whetherit's friendly or sexual relationship. Don does
not say that's way too long.So the person I'm interested in I can't
pursue for three years. They'll bemarried and have a kid by the time
(15:41):
I get there. I was justfriends, the friends. You gotta start
day one words with friends, said, and then she turned into a tattletale
line four Hi Elliott the morning Elliott, Yes, Hi, Hi Rechel,
I'm a behavior analyst. Who soI do a behavioral analyst. Oh,
(16:04):
yes, so I do behavioral therapyfor kids on the autism spectrum. But
basically I'm a mental health professional andwe have a code of we have a
code of ethics where you have towait two years before you can have a
romantic or sexual relationship with a formerclient. And in this case, it
(16:27):
wouldn't be obviously the kids that we'retreating, but we do do parent training
and have lots of interaction with theparents, so I know, I know
that it's happened. I definitely havepeople's moms that I've befriended that I worked
really closely with, but and Icontinued to communicate with them after we stopped
(16:52):
working together, But our friendships arebased around their child, right that I
treat it like I just checked inand say, hey, how are they
doing? Oh? Yeah, butyou're not going out for what? Okay,
so you're I mean, you're justdoing a kind follow up, but
you're not going like, hey,let's yeah, you know what, it's
frye and and Scott's making froze.Let's go over and have some drinks.
(17:15):
You're not doing that, No,no way. And when you're treating them.
The reason that you can't be friendswith them is because it creates a
dual relationship. So you're their friends, but you're also a dual relationship g
U A L. Yeah, Iknow. So. So you're treating them,
(17:38):
but you're also their friends, andwhen you need to make decisions about
treatment, you might be hesitant tosuggest them because you don't want to offend
them, whereas if it's not yourfriends, you feel more comfortable. So
there can you argue? Can Iargue that where wouldn't you be more wouldn't
(17:59):
you be more apt to go aboveand beyond for a friend than a than
a customer? Well? No,well erle. This thing that happens is
that you when you're in a friendship, you start to do things like do
each other favors, you know,buy each other drinks, get each other
(18:19):
presents, stuff like that, Andthen he might end up in a situation
where you feel indebted to them insome way, and so you stren't making
clear decisions anymore like professional decisions.See, because I have I have friends,
not none of them are are mydoctors, but I have friends who
(18:40):
are doctors who have just flat outtold me they won't get me pills.
Well that's good. Yeah no,but that's what I mean, like you
yeah, and I'm not talking likebad pills, just like like vicatin and
stuff, but the you know killers, yeah no, no. But because
they know their things. So ifyou were if you were my therapist,
and I was like, oh,hey, you know what, like I
(19:00):
know, I got you some giftsand stuff, how about a little,
if you said no, I wouldunderstand that. I'd be like, you
know what, that's that's part ofthe job, listen. I don't give
everybody a teach right well, andsome people have those boundaries and some people
don't. So I think that's whythey have those rules is because some people
aren't that strong. But you're tellingme the rule is two years before I
(19:23):
can pursue you sexually. Correct.And I don't treat anyone within four blocks
of my home either, oh,so that you're less likely to run into
them, exactly like I had.My neighbor across the street asked me to
treat their son, and I waslike, I can't because you know everything
(19:45):
about my life, like you seeme coming and going, and all of
a sudden that I do, andI need to be private, you know,
and have my own I want tosay one we're saying sorry, go
ahead, no, no, no, you go ahead, you go ahead.
I was just gonna say, youguys were talking about dating therapists,
and I just wanted to say,you know, as a behar An list
(20:07):
that we have lots of strategies thatwe use to shape behavior, and I
use them on people I date,on my child, on my family.
Yeah. No, no, Iwould imagine you would. Yeah, I
would imagine it's got to be sosecond nature that you would try to you
would try to like mind meild meor something like that. Yeah, we
(20:32):
definitely, we definitely do use ourstrategy use it. Can I ask you
this though, at the end ofat that once that two year window closes,
is it? And and then youcould be then you can have sex
with a patient former patient? Doesit matter who? Does it matter who
initiates? Like? Can I emailyou like on my last day my last
(20:52):
day? You're like, you knowwhat, Elliott, We've come to the
end of our of our sessions.You're in a good place. If you
need me reach back. If Ilooked at you with a wink and said,
oh, you'll hear from me twoyears from today, Like, it
can go either way. You canemail me or I can email you.
Yeah, good, okay, good, Yeah, And we tell them in
the orientation you need to understand thatI cannot have that's relationship with you until
(21:19):
two years after I've treated you.You just lay it down so that they
know, oh wow, yeah,but it's definitely happens. You know what.
I never realized I would never doit. But no, no,
and that listen, of course,because you would think most wouldn't. But
obviously there's some bad apples. Butyou know what, I didn't realize a
(21:41):
thank you, ma'am. I didn'trealize how much behavioral therapist and DJ have
in common. Okay, wait,so is the neighborhood thing. I never
even heard of that, but thatmakes sense. I feel like that radius
should be larger. Yeah, fourblocks. You live in a city,
Yeah four blocks? Is it much? This is interesting from Instagram. Yes,
(22:07):
the American Psychological Association for bidge sexualintimacies until at least two years after
the termination of therapy. That's whatshe said. That's what she said.
But then, how about this.The American Psychiatric Association says sexual activity with
a current or former patient is unethical, that's it. No, so never
(22:33):
Oh, I like the first one. So you should be a psychologist.
I'm a psychologist, not what psychologistiatrist? Is it? A psychiatrist that can
prescribe medication, they're trained in medicine. Yeah, it's funny. I want
a psychiatrist, but I'm more I'mmore liking the psychologist route. So there's
no A psychiatrist can never diddle it? Can they be friends with it?
(22:59):
Oh my god, I'm here totalk about the diddling. Not everything is
that, you guy. Everything foryou guys is sexual. You're the one
that said that you look at everyrelationship with the potential. It's almost like
when you get the win probability insports, you have a graph of sex
question mark. Yes, but maybe, but not with doctors. What am
(23:22):
I at say again, that's oursex probability line? Twah Hi, elliot
in the morning. Hello, Yeah, Hi? Who's this? Ah?
Hi? I mean it's Samantha.Yes, Samantha. What can I do
for you? So? I wasactually in the hospital a couple of years
(23:45):
ago, and I had a therapistand the psychiatrist, and I enjoyed the
service that they gave me. Somuch that I actually six months after my
hospitalization, I began working alongside Ihad with my therapist. But we're not
allowed to have any sort of communication, Like I'm not allowed to go and
(24:07):
physically talk to her, Like ifI have a problem, I have to
go to somebody else. She'll sometimeslike check in with me just to make
sure, you know, like Iam doing okay, but like, no,
I'm not doing is this is thislike a physical therapist? No,
this is behavioral health. Oh ohno, you said hospital I went physical,
But well you didn't have to saythat. I figured it out the
(24:34):
Yeah, wait so but that justout of curiosity? Why did they hire
you, like knowing that you listen, I'm sure you're a great employee.
You sound like a great person.Why why did they Why did they hire
you if they knew that there wasgoing to be like this one office that
you can never go into. Sothey have a rule to where like if
you're originally a patient, if youwant to have like an employment job there,
(25:00):
you have to wait at least likesix months, depending upon how your
treatment went. Like my like,my treatment went very well and I didn't
show signs of you know, beinglike a hazard to anybody. I was
just dealing with something, you know, with tragic in that time, so
they they knew how I was asa person. So I just had to
(25:22):
wait like six months after I wasout of treatment. And I have always
wanted to work in that field tohelp other people that you know, want
to do something similar like myself.And you know, I like that story.
I like that story a lot.And you're right, they know you,
you know what I mean, Soif they know the kind of person
you are, I like everything aboutthat. I do think there's part of
(25:42):
it that's weird, but I understandit where like you can't go talk to
like that one doctor, but Ilike that story. I really like that
a lot. Yeah, I can'tgo to her like like we're close,
Like I had a really good relationshipwith her when when she was my doctor.
So like if I do have anissue to where, you know,
like if I just need some sortof like break, she'll let me go
(26:07):
and talk to her, but sheshe can't give me advice like I can
talk to her finally be like,oh, you know, I'm having such
a bad day. You know,she's allowed to like listen to you know,
things like that, but if Igo to her and say, oh,
well, you know, like I'mreally depressed about you know so,
and so she has to like directme to go to somebody else because she
does know me. She knows mybackground, and you know, she knows
(26:29):
things that could possibly trigger me.So that's why, like it will be
like a conflict of interest. Igotcha. It's good and taking work away
from another doctor interesting. I likethat. All right, very good,
very good. I appreciate it.Thank you, ma'am, thank you,
thank you. All right? Recappsychiatrist noah, never Yeah, well they
(26:53):
say it's not ethical. That doesn'tthere's really no timeline there. But I
have to wait too years for sex. There was actually more for the psychologist.
Wait, psychiatrist or psychiat chitatrist.We know was well, they say
it's unethical. Let me go backbecause you're gonna be well, you're looking
it up. Can I use themicrophone to just share a message with one
(27:15):
person? Just one person? It'sday three, right, Fix the goddamn
phones anyway, yes, save usfor therapy. I can't. I'm bet
now he said he doesn't need it. I'm at five months in twenty eight
days. Do you know how Horny, I would be at five months and
(27:36):
twenty eight days. I would havehad that email written for a month.
Oh, I got to hit send. That's someone that's going to need to
see your drafts. And if anythingis written to a former patient with a
countdown clide, you're losing your lessons. Yes, there was more, at
(27:56):
least two years after the termination oftherapy, and say that even the and
it's acceptable only in the most unusualcircumstances. What's unusual, bro? You know that
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