Dr. Marc Dollinger on why he believes Jews have white privilege

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Episode Transcript

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Tonight we're going to present doctor MarkDolinger. He believes Jews have white
privilege. We'll talk to him aboutwhy he believes Jews have that privilege.

(01:06):
Also tonight, we usually run onour Thursday night show, Rabbi Ellie Krimski
of a Little Bit of Synagogue doinga lyrical introduction to the week's partial we
presented tonight of what the past shop. His portion was all about. I
think you will enjoy it. We'regonna be right back down Kawai, where
America's only Jewish radio programs on regularbroadcast radio, on the Internet and digital
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And now here's your host. Welcomeback to the program, Mom,

(05:51):
Zev Brenner, and we usually featureon our Thursday night broadcast Rebailli crim Skit
a little bit of Synagogue, givinga lyrical introduction to the week's Tower portion,
and we present it tonight of thetower portions that was just read yesterday
in synagogue. Here now is RobailiKrimsky Parsha's Kisse. No other Parsha has

(06:13):
mits us more than Kistse's total numberof seventy four. We start with the
law of a soldier at war andend with a mulich we pray nevermore.
We learn about firstborns and the portionthey receive, rebellious teens who steal,
and the punishment. You won't believe. The Tower insists on dignity even for
those whom the base did execute.We must return lost objects and help those

(06:39):
stuck in their commute. No crossdressing in the night or in the day.
Before taking eggs or chicks the motherbird, we must show away.
Building a fence around your roof toavoid danger is a very important rule.
We may not mix a garment oflinen and of wool. Speaking of shotness,
the picture about which I spoke,you are allowed out to mix them

(07:00):
on sitsus the strings on the fourcorners of your cloak. It is also
forbidden to take two different species ofanimal folk and connect them together to plow
your field. They may not sharea yoke. Next to Tora details how
we are to live a moral andchaste life and the expectations a man has
when he takes a young lady forhis wife. When families are created by

(07:23):
straying from the Torah, problems arecreated that complicate our missa. Because they
would not give our forefathers water andbread. We must avoid marrying into Ammon
and Moav and find other spouses instead. Converts are accepted from our enemies Egypt
and Edom because they showed us hospitalityway back when and welcomed us into their

(07:45):
home. Even when waging war.We must conduct ourselves with class. Slaves
escaping from horrible masters receive asylum andget a pass. Interest is called nesha,
which in Hebrew means a bite.Usury against Jews is a no.
No, it's wrong and not atall right. When we make a vat,
we must pay it back on time. When working in the field,

(08:09):
one may eat grapes right off thevine. The complicated laws of marriage and
divorce are found right here. Anewly wet husband may not wage war,
but returns to his wife. Sodear. If a Jew loan's money and
takes a collateral on the loan,he may not collect with a needed thing
today. That may be a pillowor a phone. We must be honest

(08:31):
in all our business dealings. Wemay must pay day laborers that day if
they mop or just paint ceilings.If a court sentences someone to lashes,
the max is thirty nine. Andif an ox plows a field, you
may not muzzle it so on grassit may dine. A Malik must be
remembered like the Nazis or al Qaeda. From nine to eleven, the Tore

(08:54):
tells us to wipe them out MitahaSashamayan from under the Heaven ten percent of
the tourist mizvos we find in Kisatzea virtual tone, wishing everyone a meaningful
leaning and as always, shabah aloneand a good jobist. Welcome back to
the program, Mom, is thatBrenner. Our guest right now is doctor

(09:16):
Mark Dolinger, professor of Jewish Studiesat San Francisco State University. Is book
which came out in twenty eighteen.It is called Black Power Jewish Politics,
Reinventing the Alliance in nineteen sixties.It's been reprinted several times, including after
the George Floyd incidents. So ProfessorMark Dolinger, thank you for joining us.
Great to be here, good evening, and shutov. You're a tof

(09:39):
to you. So I know thatyou grew up in a reformer Jewish background,
you got involved in dealing with someof the social issues that confront our
society, and I know that you'vewrite a lot. Then you're about to
how to look at the Black JewishAlliance. But basically what you've gotten a
lot of attention was you believe thatJews have white privilege and we've benefited from

(10:01):
white supremacy. So before we getto that, how do you define white
privilege? Yeah? Thanks, SoI think that the better place to start
is to look at Jews and race. Race is what's called socially constructed,
which means it's certainly about the colorof your skin, because that absolutely matters,
but it's also about how your groupis treated by society. And what's

(10:24):
fascinating for me as a scholar ofJewish studies, especially now talking about white
Jews, is that in times ofour history and in places of our history,
we have not been white, wehave not had privilege. At other
times, in other places, wehave been considered by the societies around us
to be white, and therefore weenjoyed privilege. So for us to have

(10:46):
the conversation about our white Jews whiteand privileged really requires us to look at
specific historical times and places. Sothe opening that you just gave came from
some of my publications and writings relatedto American Jews after World War Two,
because in this country, prior toWorld War Two, as I think a

(11:09):
lot of your listeners would would beaware, there was tremendous domestic anti Semitism,
and Jews were not considered privileged andnot considered white. We know,
in the last few years we've hadan upsurge in domestic anti semitism. We've
had tragically the worst and most violentinstances of anti Semitism in American Jewish history.

(11:33):
So that would pretend that we,you know, as white Jews,
are not enjoying privilege. Anthropologists callthis liminal. We are part of multiple
different groups at the same time.So since World War Two, for the
most part, anti Semitism has easeda whole lot from where it used to

(11:56):
be prior to World War Two.And certainly, of course you know when
you talk about Europe in the nineteentwenties and nineteen thirties. So we have
enjoyed the privilege of being white througheducation, through professional advancement, through access
to healthcare, certainly around policing andlaw enforcement, we've done well, and
I think social economically, we've reallyclimbed the ladder and achieved incredible successes in

(12:22):
this kind of because we're white,to because we worked very hard. Asians
are not white, and they alsohave a chief tremendous success from hard work.
So what makes it white privilege asopposed to just good old fashioned education
and hard work all of the above, all of the hard education counts,
hard work counts, and racial privilegecounts. I'm advancing at thesis, and

(12:46):
it's so important, and it's sometimeschallenging to hold both. And that is
it is possible for Jews to workhard, it's possible for Jews to strive
for the highest levels of education,and it's possible for Jews to also get
an added benefit of racial privilege.And I think all that's happening. So

(13:07):
let me introduce a word called historiography. History is the study of the past.
Historiography is how generations of history professorshave written about it. And I've
found that we've covered really well theJews and education. We've covered really well
Jews and hard work. So whatI'm trying to do, and what I
did in the Black Power Book wasreally at a new layer and explore an

(13:31):
angle or a perspective that scholars andthe general public have not been paying as
much attention to. So my bookfocuses in many ways on what it means
for Jews to be why on throughthe nineteen fifties and sixties, and so
what I'm trying to ask, retainedProfessor Dolinger is that you know, you're

(13:52):
saying, it's why privilege and we'vebenefited from my supremacy. But listen,
first of all, anti seventh isan all time high in the last year
or so, that's no question aboutit. And there's certain areas where Jews
are restricted from getting into because you'reJewish. So the areas that we've done
well, whether it's education and finances, due to hard work, not because

(14:13):
of any kind of privilege, butbecause of kind of hard work. That's
what I'm trying to ascertain as towhy it's just because we have white skin
we've advanced. I'm arguing with youthat's not because of our white skins,
because of other factors that made ussuccessful. Oh well, so I'll agree
and say both. And it's absolutelythe other factors, and it really helps
us to be white. All ofthe data you know around race sadly tells

(14:37):
us when a baby's born born,we can determine a whole lot statistically based
upon the racial gender, whatever thestatus category. We're going to have.
The thing about racial privilege, itappears to be invisible because it's not as
if one day you know somebody isgoing to, you know, grant you
something on the basis of your privilege. It can be as simple. And

(15:00):
the story I tell is, youknow, when I go to seven to
eleven, which is what we haveout here on the West Coast, I'm
never followed by the security guard,you know, who thinks that I'm going
to steal something just because I'm notwhite. As the case may be.
So, racial privilege has from thebeginning of US history. Really I've been
a dominant causal agent in history.It is, it is determined and helped

(15:24):
certainly those that have the privilege againstthose that don't, and of course does
not deny hard work and education,which also matters. These are complicated phenomenon
which are occurring now. If you'renot following a seven to eleven, I
think we'll go with the basis ofwho is committing the most crimes. If
Jews are committing lots of crimes,then they would look at the Jews in

(15:46):
a certain way. If a certainethnic group is committing more crimes, and
you walk into a store part ofthe ethnic group, you're going to be
looked at it with suspicion. Soit's not because of why prolege, because
of the fact that the preponderance ofcrime may be looked with a certain group
in a certain area. Yeah,that's racial profile thing. And you know,
one thing that we've been trying todo, at least since the nineteen

(16:07):
sixties before, is not to cometo determinations on people and their behavior based
upon the way they present themselves.In fact, that's the way in which
these systems of racial hierarchies of workand operate. No, but the fact
is, though, and they knowwe did it in New York. You
know, for a while, itdoesn't have to be just be blacks.
If it's any particular group that's goingto commit a certain amount of crime,

(16:30):
they're going to look at them ina certain way. And if you look
at the historical record, I believein the early nineteen hundreds, you look
at the New York Times and otherpub not that I like to quote the
New York Times too often, whenyou look at some other publications and Jews
who came in from Eastern Europe,a lot of them were engaged in crime
and prostitution in all kinds of otherrackets. Was only less if one generation

(16:52):
he had murder incorporated. Yet theJewish mafia for a period of time,
so Certainly, if the Jew isto walk into a play, they may
have suspected him. It might havebeen racial profile based on the reality of
that time. So it's just thereality of the marketplace, so to speak.
Now I disagree. I think thatthere are going to be white Jews
who commit crimes, white Jews whodon't commit crimes. They're going to be

(17:15):
Blacks who commit crimes, a Blackwho don't commit crimes. The challenge that
we face in our society is whenwe group people by their status, whether
it's a racial status or a religiousstatus, and then come to determinations about
their behavior based upon their membership inthat group. That's something that we as
Jews especially should be concerned about andaware of. For all the times that

(17:38):
you know, authorities have considered Jewsas Jews to be whatever it is they
wanted the Jews to be. Nowyou also say that we have benefit from
white supremacy. To find what youmean by that, Yeah, white supremacy
is a notion that if you getsort of VIP status, if you're white,
that they're in the way in whichsociety allocates its resources. Folks who

(18:00):
are categorized as white get to besupreme and this is beyond sort of individuals
who might be racist. It reallygoes to the way in which the structures
of society are organized in ways thatare repeatable and predictable. Were those who
enjoyed higher levels on the racial ladderare going to get to enjoy disproportionate privilege

(18:23):
as a result. Now in today'sday and agent the Asians assuing some universities
because of discrimination. I can tellyou places like Columbia Barnard, NYU have
looked to restrict Jewish enrollment. Nowthey use the word they want to have
more diversity by getting people coming fromall parts of the country, not just

(18:45):
New York. New York as aco word for Jews. So you still
have where Jews are being restricted onthe basis of their religion or race,
because we're both religion and a race. So I just don't see the privileges.
And then again, you also,I think you've been some of the
articles have been critical. You didn'tinclude there are lots of Jews of color.

(19:06):
They're Jews who are black, They'reJews who come from Arab countries that
are dark skin that also have hadsome success in this country, not because
of their not because of white privilegeand not white. Yeah, so there's
a bunch of questions there. First, we'll look at universities. I have
not you know, it's not myresearch area, so I have not sort
of reviewed the colleges and universities youdescribed. But it seems as if you're
describing two points simultaneously. One wouldbe the efforts to diversify the undergraduate population,

(19:33):
and the second is what you're callingrestriction against Jews. I have not
read about specific restriction against Jews,and I think you mentioned that that was
not framed that way. The notionthat all students will learn better by being
in a diverse set of undergraduates isestablished in the educational literature, and it's
a whole lot better for everybody ifwe have universities that look like and represent

(19:57):
the larger society in which we live. Not to mention the quoted on the
should there be quotas based on thepopulation. If you represent x percentage,
that's what percentage you should be allowedinto universities. We haven't had quotas in
decades. I understand what you're sayingright now, which should be reflect How

(20:18):
do you get to reflect the populationunless you have quotas. First of all,
no, we don't need quotas.I think that's really sort of a
tagline that gets thrown out there altoquickly in order to divert attention away from
the real issue, which is AndI teach at a public university, so
I'll speak to public universities. Willour public universities fulfill the public good mandate

(20:40):
that we have to educate the populationsin our states. I'm in the state
of California. I would like tosee, you know, the top x
percentage of graduates from every high schoolin our state getting into one of our
three systems of higher education. Sothat's what we're looking for. And I
think that for one group to receivethat it is being harmed because other groups

(21:03):
are being included doesn't get us anywhere. And in terms of Jews in the
college and universities, were nothing toworry about. We are doing really,
really well, and who were deliveringin our populations to higher education. I
joke that a bachelor's degree is likethe baseline in most American Jewish families,
and a graduate degree is probably preferable. You mentioned Jews of color and black

(21:26):
Jews. Absolutely, we haven't mentionedthe Jews of color. We're looking at
an eight to twelve percent the AmericanJewish population, though if we're including Safarti
Missrahi Jews, it's going to goeven higher. And of course, interpreting
Jews of color on this racial paradigmis going to show that we have an

(21:48):
increasingly ethnic and racially diverse American Jewishcommunity, which is going to give us
a whole lot more opportunity and certainlyplays very well on these larger themes of
promoting diversity everywhere in America in life. But yet in your book, you
didn't write anything about black Jews.Correct. That was a big mistake.
So I wrote this book from thesources and the archives, and only after

(22:11):
I finished the book did my friendsin the Jews of color community reach out
to me and give me feedback.You know, you wrote two hundred pages
on blacks and Jews and not asingle page on a black Jew. So
this is part of my learning asa white man and as one who was
moving into this field of race,to do all I can to self reflect
and to learn as I go.I'm happy to write that the epilogue of

(22:34):
the book, which was not writtenwhen I first got the feedback, I
was able to at least begin toacknowledge that error in the book and to
start writing about it. A secondedition of the book will be coming out
in about six months. It willhave an additional chapter which we'll talk even
more about Jews of color and therelevance here. So I'm looking forward to

(22:56):
that. But are they benefiting fromwhite privilege? No, so they're benefiting
from hard work, from education,from other factors that help them succeed.
That's right. And of course Jewsof color is a diverse community as well,
and experiences are diverse even among alldifferent communities. But if we wanted
to sort of look at notions ofracial hierarchy, there are divisions between white

(23:19):
Jews and Jews of color, andthat's something that the organized Jewish community only
since the racial reckoning began have beginto understand, so to how and why
it is that our Jewish organizations haveremained predominantly white spaces even as the numbers
of Jews of color have been increasing. Our guests is doctor Mark Dolan,
Or, professor of Jewish Studies atSan Francisco State University. His book which

(23:44):
came out in twenty eighteen, it'sbeing republished again now it's called black power
Jewish politics, rereventing the alliance inthe nineteen sixties, and we're dealing with
white privilege. We're dealing with howthe professor ascertains that we Jews have benefited
from white privilege. We're gonna beright back. Don't go away, stay
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to pick some winners tonight. Pleasewelcome the one hundred and tenth Mayor of
the Great City of New York,Mayor Eric Adams. One of my favorite
video shows always go speaking with ZeVA. Take care. Thank you, mister
Mayor is commission Idanis Rodriguez from theNew York City Department of Transportation. Majol
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(27:10):
and Stating Island on July twenty nine, in Manhattan on August fifth, twelve,
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Then you're listening to Talk Line withZev Brenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast on
the year since nineteen eighty one.And now here's your host and we're back.

(27:37):
Our guest is doctor Mark Dolander,Professor of Jewish Studies at San Francisco
State University. His book is calledBlack Powered Jewish Politics, Reventing the Alliance
in the nineteen sixties. By theway, how'd you get involved in even
pursuing this whole trend? And we'lltalk about also how you're looking differently at
the Black Jewish Alliance of nineteen fiftyat nineteen sixties. How'd you get involved

(27:59):
in pursuing this? Thank you.I appreciate the question because this was a
fact, not what I started todo. I was really interested in the
Jewish ethnic and religious revival of thenineteen seventies, and to be honest,
like I was raised in the seventies. I'm fifty eight years old, and
I really wanted to understand the SovietJewy movement and the rise of American Zionism
because I was very much caught upin that there's a religious revival. You

(28:23):
mentioned that I was raised in thereform movement, and in my generation we
took much more to tradition than ourparents were, you know, sometimes with
conflicts in the house around cash rootand things like that. So I began
the book by looking at the nineteenseventies, and as I was getting into
the research, it drew me backto the nineteen sixties and the social protest

(28:48):
movements and all the different sort ofethnic, racial, gender identity groups in
the sixties that were becoming very proudof themselves, and black power was at
the center. So I started writingon black power, and then that drew
me backwards to the nineteen fifties tolook at the early days of the alliance

(29:08):
between white Jews and blacks. SoI researched the book from the nineteen seventies
backward to the fifties, and thenI wrote it, of course forwards from
the nineteen fifties back to the nineteenseventies. This is the third or fourth
title of the book. It's interestingwhen you write a book, the title
is really the last thing you do. But the first title of the book

(29:32):
was turning Inward American Jewish life inthe nineteen seventies, and then the second
title was is it Good for theJews Power Politics in the nineteen sixties,
And then ultimately, just before itwent to press, we came up with
the title that it has now.Tim from Queens, New York, thank
you for patiently waiting your question fordoctor Dollinger. Go ahead, Tim,
Yes, I did evening a commentand a question. I just want to

(29:56):
say, I am white and Iam Jewish. I grew up very poor
with a single mom. I don'tknow if the professor was ever ever had
his electricity turned off as a childand had to sleep in the dark or
was homeless. I have experienced that. I had to. I remember the
city Marshal's coming to throw us outwhen we were in when I was a

(30:18):
child because we couldn't afford to paythe rent. And if I'm white,
and as I'm Jewish, so Iwould love for the professor or anyone listening
to the pointment apcifically, not vaguenotions of privilege, but specifically what white
privileges I had at an emotional butthis is I find it offensive, honestly.

(30:38):
But the second point I want tomake, a second question is when
it comes to crime, statistically,certain groups commit different crimes. For example,
in the Catholic Church, there's aproblem with pedophilia. We know that.
And when it comes to violent crime, black men commit more violent crime
than let's say, white women.So it's certain offends that a police department

(30:59):
is going to focus more on blackmen than on white women. So you
can pull that profiling, you canpull that whatever you want. You might
want to pull it statistical facts andcommon sense and say, well, if
a certain group, let's say blackmen are committing much more violent, much
more in the way of violent timesthan let's say, white women, let

(31:19):
doctor Dolinger responding, well, footout question. Doctor Dollinger respond to your
go ahead, professor, Well,thank you, Tim. I appreciate your
sharing the story, and you know, certainly I you know, I'm not
going to speak specifically to your experience, but I can tell you that what
you're describing is well described in theliterature. To speak about race and racial
privilege is not to deny class issues, which is what Tim described, and

(31:45):
it's not to deny that so manyother impulses are occurring in history. And
if you get a chance to readthe Black Power Book, I highly recommend
chapter two because I get into thatvery specific idea that Tim was mentioning.
When you look at the Great Society, which was Lyndon Johnson's social reform program

(32:05):
in the mid nineteen sixties, andhe was trying to figure out a way
that he could, you know,do what FDR could not do with the
New Deal. He ended up creatingsome class based lines which many of our
national Jewish organizations for reasons that Ithink Tim articulated really well protested, which

(32:28):
is to say, there are whiteJews in poverty. Theres a lot of
them, by the way, alot of them I think, after the
Blacks and Aspacs, even New YorkCity, the third largest group is Jews.
A tremendous man the Jews in poverty, right, And so, you
know, my historical researches on thenineteen sixties, I'm not familiar with today,
but I can tell you that forwhatever you're describing today has its antecedents
even at a time when Jews wereenjoying the privilege of whiteness. So yeah,

(32:52):
absolutely, I'll share with you thatin graduate school, when we give
the doctoral qualifying exam, students haveto wrestle with class, race, gender,
immigration status. We put all thesedifferent categories and in a certain way.
You can't do that because different peopleare going to experience these categories in
different ways. And that said,my area of research is on Jews and

(33:15):
race. So I'm looking specifically atthe notion of racial privilege and describing how
that interacts in terms of crimes.You know, it's not my scholarly research
area. I can't give you datain statistics, and I can't speak as
a scholar, only as a personto say that I think the last thing
we as Jews want is profiling,and I think that we need to find

(33:37):
ways that each and every individual enjoybasic rights and that those rights are not
taken away because they happen to bea member of a particular group for whatever
reasons that authorities you know, doesn'tprofile and work take Israel, they profile
what a terrorist or would be terroristswould be, and that saved lives to

(33:58):
a certain if you're really going tobe safe, and if we're living today
with a lot of crime that's prevalentaround the country, if you don't engage
in some kind of profiling, youcan be prone to having a lot more
crime and not solving the issue.Yeah. So I think every single human
being is entitled the basic human rightsand that we should not be discriminating on

(34:19):
group status. I think it's areally really challenging line to figure out how
we're going to do that, especiallygiven Jewish history. Tim, thank you
for your question before we move onto our next goal. Profession KnowledgeR or
Calasidic Jews or Orthodox Jews that theyconsidered also to have white privilege. Yeah,
thank you. This is really animportant question, and it's one that
we've been hearing so much about sadlyin recent years with violent attacks against and

(34:45):
now we'll say white Jews who arepresenting through their clothing right and from where
they live and through habits and ritualsthat they're Jewish. So here again we
see the interplay of anti Semitism againstjew white Jews who are presenting as Jewish,
along you know, with the privilegethat is going along with folks who

(35:07):
are white. My question the prestDolinger, if a Hasidic Jew makes it
big, is it because of whiteprivilege? Because again it's hard work,
because Hassidic jew is certainly very observableas Jewish, and there's a lot of
anti Semitism doesn't even get reported againstHasidic and the Orthodox Jews. That they

(35:27):
walk in the street, you cancertainly know who they are. When they
walk into a corporate boardroom, youknow who they are. So are they
making it because of white privilege orthey're making because of their own hard work?
I would just want to get likea clear yes or no answer.
What you think about that? Well, thank you. I'll go back to
my earlier answer, which is it'snot either or it's both, and that
clearly they're getting success because of hardwork and education, and they're getting success

(35:51):
because they're defined higher on the racialprivilege, and they're not getting as much
racial privilege if they're identifying publicly asHaredi in New York City, given the
anti Semitism and the violence, Ithink everything is getting ahead because of there,
because of our prose. They aregetting ahead because of who they have
the hard work, because there's discriminationagainst them. There is discrimination and there's

(36:13):
privilege. And this is the thingabout Jews. We hold both at the
same time. But I said,anthropologists call it liminality, and it's challenging
for Jews to hold that we canbe both privileged and not privileged at the
same time. Jeffreyman have to thankthe waiting your question for our guests,
which would you rank as our primaryprivileges? The fact that observing Jews in

(36:37):
many places and at many times haveto remove the yama because when they walk
in the street, our student council, because they're just assumed the support Israel,
and even if they do support Israel. So I want to know which
of these are main privileges. Ialso want want to know. On the
one hand, you said, andI agree, people should be judged by
who they are, not by whatmembership they are in a group. I
agree with you. And yet atthe same time you said that college admissions

(37:00):
should reflect the percentage in the populationof these group. Does that mean that
we should have one and a halfwhat two Jews and every one hundred college
students. And even though a lotof Jews have won Poetic prizes and Nobel
Prizes, we should limit Jews inthe science. And finally, when you
have anti discrimination, you know,and equity laws, so we also put

(37:23):
an anti discrimination because if you're discriminated, you're not free. So I really
first want to know which of theseprivileges are we most lucky to have that
we're attacked on the streets that arestores and synagogues are attacked. I left
the professor respond to your question aboutprofessor, clearly I got the idea that
you have to take to keep off. That's of course not privilege. You
know, that's just awful. Andadmit a mention about about synagogues, and

(37:46):
clearly that's not privilege, and that'sawful too. A bit later you talked
about student councils and Jews in Israeland all these isist to plug. I'm
writing a new book. I'm almostdone with it. It's going to be
published by Indiana University Press. It'sabout campus anti semitism, in particular the

(38:07):
you know zev been mentioned in myintroduction, but I was actually hired at
San Francisco State to be the publicface of Jewish life at a university which
is widely known as one of thenation's most anti Semitic places. So my
entire career has been fighting anti semitismon the college campus. And I have
a book which is going to bea bit of a memoir to describe that

(38:28):
college admissions. No, I'm notasking for a strict percentage according to the
number of Jews, And in fact, that goes to the earlier point that
Jews are overrepresented, which is actuallya sign of our privilege. It is
to say that if we do lookin the same way that Jews were not
admitted to colleges and universities, youknow, back in the early part of

(38:49):
the twenties, are represented again,if it's a merit based system, then
we were not overrepresented, overrepresented.Well, I think that the caller described
the percentage age of Jews in theUnited States against the percentage of Jews in
the university. That's what I meantby overrepresented. I mean, yeah,
response to the professor, you're theface of defending us in San Francisco.

(39:12):
You know, honestly, with friendslike this, we don't need enemies.
Well, let's not disparage you know, the professor. He has his viewpoints
respect I'll say it's respectfully. Butyou know, I do a lot of
political work. And there was somecandidate that had a Jewish staff member that
said the Upper West Side is toowhite and in particular too Jewish, and
he was Jewish, and he wassaying, I'm a cool Jew because I
sell out my own people because Iknow that it's not really good to be

(39:36):
Jewish or something like that. AndI hate the you know, the cliche
self hating Jew. But like Ithink, and I don't know you,
but I think you and a lotof Jews are forced to sell out.
Yeah, I'm left the pressor response. But you know, I disagree with
you. Listen, I don't agreewith the professor's positions, but I don't
believe he's a self hating Jew.He has just his way of looking at

(39:57):
it. Talking about him, Iwas talking about that person. Okay,
so let's be very clear about it. But I just want to say real
quick that young Jews are forced toshow how cool they are by showing,
well, I'm a Jew, butI agree that Jews have too much disk
too much that instead of seeing allthe suffering and again look at the numbers
that the Met Council, how manypoor Jews are serviced by them, we're
looking at black Jewish relations where we'relooking at the fact that the professional Dolinger

(40:22):
has labeled Jews as being part ofwhite privilege and benefiting from white the nationalism.
He has a couple of books out. One of them is being reissued
as I said earlier, and that'sthe dealing with Blacks and Jews. And
he has a new one coming outdealing with the campus anti Semitism. And
we're going to continue our conversation rightafter these messages. Are you tired of

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grape jews in the byeline and giveus your name, address and zip code.
You're listening to talk Line with ZevBrenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast on
the year since nineteen eighty one.And now here's your host, Professor Mark

(44:15):
Dawn Drew, our guest, professorof Jewish Studies at San Francisco State University.
His book is called Black Power JewishPolitics, Reinventing the Alliance of the
nineteen sixties. Let's got to standin far still stand your question for our
guest. Go ahead, stand well. I have a comment in the question.
You know this ridiculous theory that I'veheard before that white privilege really is

(44:37):
folk because it doesn't really exist.Yeah, we've been white for almost two
thousand years. Okay, but theproblem is many of us like to change
our name in hide behind race.But it's never been a privilege. It's
been used in where we had togo to war, or if we had
to do other things and so forth. But mostly time most would change their

(45:00):
name or have their nose done orthings like that. So the race itself
is focus. Your theory is moot. It really doesn't exist once you say
a name, or that gives itaway or other things give it away.
So the race is a shield upto a point, but it doesn't protect

(45:21):
the Jew at all. I knowthat, and you know that it didn't
protect six million, So it didn'tmake a difference whether they were white or
not. White privilege doesn't exist overall. It is because we're white, and
so that's the way it is.But it's never been a privilege. It's
been a birth situation. Okay,who your question that the professor is,

(45:43):
well, I don't know. It'shis theory is bogused. I don't think
he can defend his theory. Idon't think he is defending he is the
final That doesn't mean to let himdefend this theory what I just said,
all right, let it professor response, I might stand to pick up all
be the book can read through it. The notion of whiteness race privilege in

(46:04):
US history and American Jewish history iswell founded in the literature. It's certainly
not anything. In a few minutesI have left that I'm going to be
able to convince you to change myset minds. All right, God,
I didn't think he'd answer it.Now. Of course he want't answer it.
Of course that's his privilege. Anyway, thank you for your do my
point. But okay, no problem, thank you. All right, let's

(46:24):
got a gala in. I believeit's Brooklyn, right, gala, let's
go ahead to gila your question orcommon for doctor. Thank you, go
ahead, Thank you Brandon for puttingon. I want to say something to
the professor. First of all,if you go back in history, many
of the disciplines are closed off toJews, thanking professorships ivy League colleges.

(46:46):
I'll also tell him that I knowwhat the pschiology professor in Brooklyn College he
cannot walk down all without comments beingmade. Is that privilege? I also
want to tell him about the followingthing with a young lady who years ago
applied to Shea's in Rowbooks, andwhen she said she couldn't work on Shabbat,

(47:07):
the was said, you won't beneeding this application now, and that
Lewin had it cutcase and he wonthe case. Where is the white privilege?
Where the privileges are is when youhaven't like affirmative accents, and that
is privileges. It is not thewhite privilege. And Jews from the time

(47:28):
they came over on Ellis Island,the sweat of their brow they worked to
rebilive there to being thrown into ovensand cremates corp. I don't see where
your theory has any basis, I'mgonna let every professor respond to you.
Thank you, Gela. I actuallyagree with everything that you said, because,
as I stated earlier in the broadcast, whiteness and privilege is socially constructed

(47:52):
and it's contingent, which means andthis is why I think as a Jewish
study scholar, it's it's is theplace to be in academia. Everything you
said is true, and privilege isalso true. How can we, as
the Jewish people have suffered genocide withinour lived memory at the same time that
we're enjoying privilege of whiteness in contemporaryor at least post World War to America.

(48:17):
So my teaching is not to sayeither or My teaching is to say
both. And and you mentioned affirmativeaction, So I want to do a
quick plug. I did a wholechapter in my first book on affirmative action
and quotas and the debates within theJewish community around that is called Quest for
Inclusion, Jews and Liberalism in ModernAmerica. So I recommend that one for

(48:38):
you too. You have a thankyou for your phone call. I appreciate
it. So my question to youis you look at the black Jewish alliance
is being changed, and I knowit changed. And when the black militancy
and black power that's effected, thedialog between blacks and Jews has a nut.
Oh yeah, So I actually havea three part theory on that.
The first is that way back inthe nineteen fifties, sort of the golden

(49:00):
age of the civil rights movement,at least when most of our memories really
reflected that everything was perfect, Inoticed that even the Jewish leaders at the
time understood fundamental differences between being whiteand Jewish and being black in America,
and they actually predicted the eventual endof the alliance, which occurred in the

(49:22):
mid nineteen sixties. That's part one, Part two. Even as it was
a fractious dissolution of the alliance,especially for those of you in New York
City, I found that there wastremendous empathy among rabbis for the Black power
movement. I was shocked to readit, which is how that book title
came up. And then what Ifound in the nineteen seventies is that Jewish

(49:44):
organization, Soviet Jewry, American Zionism, rabbis looking for a greater ritual observance
were playing on the ideology and tacticsof black power, which is to say,
if black is beautiful, so isJewish. And if Blacks are going
to, you know, protest inthe streets for racial equality, Jews will

(50:05):
protest in the streets for Soviet Jewryor for Zionism. And I was really
stunned to see that even though thealliance ended in the mid sixties, it
sort of realigned itself in a parallelfashion. In fact, the birth of
the Jewish Defense leg Ruby America,Hannah's militant organization, was solely based the
Jewish power was based on Black power. Jewish is beautiful. Some of the

(50:28):
slogans of the Black Power One wasquickly adopted by the JDL when it was
formed in the nineteen sixties. Ibelieve Gahani loved the Oakland based Black Panther
Party, which went into the statecapital and Sacramento with shotguns. And clearly,
you know, he was not interestedin the issue of racial justice.
He was interested in his perspectives ofJewish justice. But he was quite open

(50:52):
about the fact that he was emulatingwhat was happening in the black community.
Professor Mark Dolinger, Professor Jeworge Studies, San Francisco State University. This book
is called Black Power, Jewish Politics, Repenting the launch of nineteen sixties.
Your new book will be out whenin about a year from Indiana University Press.
Does not yet have a title,but it will be on campus anti

(51:13):
Semitism. Thank you for joining usa pleasure. Thank you all should goto?
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