Gidi Grinstein on Two State Solution & Oslo for Gaza

Episode Transcript

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(01:52):
in Israeli life as well.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
And we'll talk to him about why.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
He believes the two state solution is important than why
the Oslo Cord should be applied to Gaza as well.
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You're listening to Talk Line with zeb Brenner, America's premier
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Speaker 5 (05:45):
And now here's your host.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
Very please to have with us once again. He was
with us a while back. Giddy Greensin is an Israeli
social entrepreneur. He's the founder of the Rayot Group, a
non partisan, not for profit research round and leadership group.
He helped the find to find an organization called Tom
Tikun Olam Makers, a global nonprofit that aids and disabled,
the elderly and the poor. He's the author of Legitity,

(06:10):
The Secret of Jewish Identability and the Challenge and the
Opportunity of Facing Israel. He served as secretary and coordinator
of the Israeli delegation for the negotiations with the PLO
in nineteen ninety nine through two thousand and one, who's
on the team that established Talkuler Birthright Israel. Co author
of another book, Israel Vision fifteen, also a captain of
the Israeli NAVIS and he's graduate the Harvard Kennedy School

(06:32):
of Government, and he worked with a Cannomic cooperation and
he's very much involved in the fabric of Jewish life.
So welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us again.

Speaker 10 (06:42):
Zev Shavo.

Speaker 11 (06:43):
Talk to you and to your audience, and thank you
very much for having me back.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
Shure Toe.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
I want people before we get to politics, and I
know your views on what's going on in Goshen the
Israeli government. TOM is a group that you're spiritheading, which
does amazing work, but a lot of people are not
familiar with it. Just share with their oil means what
it's all about.

Speaker 10 (07:01):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 11 (07:02):
So basically what we saw in Israel is that people
at the bottom of the economic ladder, people with disabilities, elderly,
poor people are not getting the solutions that they need
for their issues at the price point that can afford
For example, posticis wheelchairs, devices for eating, drinking, mobility, participation
in sports, in music, in hobbies and so on.

Speaker 10 (07:22):
And our idea was to create basically a.

Speaker 11 (07:26):
Platform, a web platform where engineers, programmers, product designers can
donate their inventions. We document on our website everything is
open source and free for anybody around the world to
download it, and people are downloading the devices and manufacturing
them locally. The other major idea is that this is
a platform for building the good standing of Israel and Jewish.

Speaker 10 (07:49):
Communities around the world.

Speaker 11 (07:51):
We heard extensively in your show other places about the
challenges of the deal gitimization of Israel and the BDS movement,
which creates what you make call a legitimacy deficit. Our
efforts are designed to create a legitimacy surplus, meaning partnerships
and relationships with emerging leaders.

Speaker 10 (08:10):
Around the world, in communities around the.

Speaker 11 (08:11):
World and also across the United States that will basically
we partner with them in order to help them help
their communities the big long lasting relationships between the Jewish
community and their community. Since the beginning of the war,
of course, we've been focusing on the acute needs of
people in rehabilitation centers, in hospitals, wounded soldiers and civilians.

(08:35):
And I'm proud to say that we have become a
singular provider for Israel's Ministry of Defense for addressing all
the conditions that don't have an off the shelf market solution.

Speaker 10 (08:44):
They come to.

Speaker 11 (08:45):
Us, we do our best to give them an affordable solution.
One of our most recent creations that is now distributed
around Israel people in a wheelchair who are confined to
wheelchair and have babies. We have created a cryp that
is elevated so you people can wheeld their wheelchair under
the quib, open it from the side, put their baby,

(09:07):
close it and put the baby to sleep.

Speaker 10 (09:10):
So that's one device out of hundreds that we were
working on.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Amazing work that you're doing, and we have to develop
more time to talk about it, but what it is
is transforming lives in Israel around the world, a tremendous concept.

Speaker 11 (09:23):
Thank you very much, and really thank you for opportunity's
surprising opportunity to say, if you're worth about that, do
you enter your audience.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
And it's important work that you're doing. I was impressed
when I met with you and learned about it the night.
I only know a fraction of what you're doing, but
it's making life easier and helping people in so many
different ways.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
So it's an important thing. And they didn't want to
highlight that.

Speaker 11 (09:44):
And by the way, when Ambassador of Friedman was the
Ambassador Israel, his team led by Aria lights Lightstone, Lightstone,
you know, they were actually helpful to us, endorsed us,
and that was I'm very grateful for that.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Now this month of September you highlight that it's peace Week,
it's milestones for Oslo. Abram mccordus Camp David, So are
you a supporter? Would you know Oslo? Everybody seems to
believe that it's dead, it died. Do you believe that.
You think it was a good thing, you think it
could be revived in dealing with Gaza. What's your opinion

(10:23):
about that?

Speaker 11 (10:24):
So basically, coincidentally, we have three big dates in one week.
September thirteen is the milestone for the signing of the
first Oslo Courts September thirteen, nineteen ninety three in Oslo
taught the Declaration of Principles. September fifteen, this year will
mark four years since the abramccords and September seventeen marks
forty six years since the Camp David Accords of nineteen

(10:46):
seventy eight.

Speaker 10 (10:47):
My argument in my book actually didn't mention it.

Speaker 11 (10:51):
My book is called Insights peace Making in the Oslo
Process thirty years in counting. A major point I'm making
in the book is that there is a sequence. This
is these all events are connected, meaning the nineteen seventy
eight Camp David Accord turned UN Security Council Resolution two
four to two into the cornerstone of all political process

(11:13):
since then for forty six years.

Speaker 10 (11:15):
It also had annex.

Speaker 11 (11:17):
An annex of the agreement is actually the template of
the Oslock Courts, meaning Menachem Beggin and President Sadata of Egypt.
Prime Mister Beggin actually created the framework for the Oslock Courts,
suggesting that there should be a five year interim period,
self governing Palestinian authority, etc. This logic was embraced by
OSLO in nineteen ninety three and turned into the Oslo Process,

(11:40):
which also introduced a five year interim period and a
self governing plastine body. And my argument is that there
would not have been an a Brown Accords without the
oslock courts and without un Security Council Resolution two four two.

Speaker 10 (11:53):
It's all one line of events.

Speaker 11 (11:55):
And actually when I went to the ue and to Bahrain,
this is one of the things they told me. They
told me that if his President Saddad and he's agree
with Israel in nineteen seventy eight seventy nine, actually made
it possible for them to come along many.

Speaker 10 (12:09):
Years later, of course.

Speaker 11 (12:10):
And by the way, I will also say that one
of the most remarkable things that you can see in
Abu Dhabi, which is the Abrahmic Center, a church, a
mosque and a synagogue in one platform equal size, like
the three montestic religion. This is an idea that President
Saddad suggested in nineteen In nineteen eighty two, when after

(12:32):
Israel completed the withdrawal from Sinai, he thought that there
would be one building that will house a church, a
mosque and a synagogue at the foot of Mount Sinai
in the Sinai Desert. Obviously he was assassinated. He wasn't
able to realize that idea. But many years later you
have the UEE, a remarkable structure that actually realizes that vision.

(12:56):
By the way, I'm not sure that the Amirtis knew
about Sadad. It may have come from them naturally, but
still they all converge on the understanding that the monotistic
religions peace among them and coexistence among the monotistic religion
is essential for the political political resolution of the conflicts
in the Middle East.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
But I would say that most people believe the Oslo
Cords are dead. There was in the father they were
killing of Jews afterwards. So now I think even in
Israel it self, a two state solution is so far
from the public reality. People just upset what happened with
Hamas and they don't believe in a two state solution.

Speaker 11 (13:35):
So basically I would urge you know, your listeners to
kind of expand or the view and to look at
it as a historical process. In nineteen thirty six was
the first time that David Benguyon and the leadership of
the Zionist movement accepted the notion that there should be
a partition of the land between two indigenous people, the
Jews and the Arabs, the Palestinians that lived in Mandatory

(13:55):
Palestine at the time. This was essential for the international
diplomatic support for the Zionist movement leading up to nineteen.

Speaker 10 (14:05):
Forty seven the Partition decision in the.

Speaker 11 (14:07):
UN what we call UN Security Council Resolution one eight one,
which we call the Partition Decision, that acceptance of the
Zionist movement in the idea of a partition of the
land to Jewish state and Arms state was essential for
international support, which led to the establishment of the State
of Israel.

Speaker 10 (14:25):
Fast forward nineteen sixty seven.

Speaker 11 (14:27):
Again, UN Security Council Resolution two four two actually formalizes
the achievements of Israel in nineteen forty eight, basically recognizes
the victory.

Speaker 10 (14:38):
Of Israel in nineteen forty eight, and.

Speaker 11 (14:40):
Israel accepts two for two, which leads to the greatest
achievement of the Zionist movement, which is the peace with Egypt,
when the largest and strongest arbor country of the time
recognizes Israel and recognizes its border with Israel.

Speaker 10 (14:53):
So the Oslock Cord fast forward.

Speaker 11 (14:55):
In nineteen ninety three is actually the realization of the
logic of the Zionist movement, which is that there are
two indigenous people and we need to find a way
to divide the land. Now, the Trump Plan, I have
to remind everybody that David Friedman, Ambassador of Friedman with

(15:16):
the Trump team, authored with Natanille, speaks about the two
state solution, endorses the two state solution.

Speaker 10 (15:22):
This is not interpretation black on White.

Speaker 11 (15:25):
The Trump Plan of January twenty twenty speaks about the
two state solution where an equivalent of eighty six percent
of the West Bank would be part of the Palestinian state,
Gaza would be expanded into the negative, there would be
a Palestinian capital in the area of Jerusalem, and Temple
Mount will be under the administration of the Jordanian wax. Okay,

(15:49):
all of this is in the Trump Plan, and nine
months later you have the Abram Accords, and I don't
think you can disconnect the two. The fact that Trump
actually acknowledged the logic of Jewish on Arab state and
the fact that the Palestinian side was seen as reluctant

(16:11):
to this idea opened the door in many ways to
the Abram courts.

Speaker 10 (16:15):
Remember that that.

Speaker 11 (16:16):
When Israel said that it will annex unilaterally the West
Bank zev you asked Ambassador Freedman.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
Right, because stopped it.

Speaker 11 (16:25):
Was Trump administration blocked it, and because they blocked it
eventually because there was this deadlock.

Speaker 10 (16:33):
Okay.

Speaker 11 (16:34):
Ambassador Usulflo Tava in Washington suggested the trump plant in
an article in the Israeli media. I'm sorry, suggested what
we eventually became the Abrama courts. So what we're saying
is that there is a direct line and the precondition
for the fundamental legitimacy of Israel in the world is
acknowledging that there is an Arab constituency in the West

(16:59):
Bank and Gaza and its political status has to be
addressed through a political process. So in this respect, Oslo,
what we say also is actually.

Speaker 10 (17:10):
Eleven agreements, very detailed agreements. Many of the provisions of
disagreements are no longer implemented, but the core idea of
OSLO is still in place.

Speaker 11 (17:20):
Oslo created the Palestinian Authority, and the Palastinian Authority is
still governing what we call Area A, which is the
populated areas in the West Bank. It has civil control
of Area B, altogether forty.

Speaker 10 (17:33):
Percent of the West Bank.

Speaker 11 (17:35):
And the Paris Protocol, which is the economic agreements, probably
the most important part of the Oslo Courts, still implemented today.
Although this government and Nathanial government is trying to chip
away from disagreements. So what we're seeing is that the
logic of OSLO, which is that we have to arrive
at a political solution that acknowledges the reality that there

(17:57):
are two indigenous people between.

Speaker 10 (17:59):
The Jordan River and the Mediterranean, that logic is still valid.

Speaker 11 (18:03):
And I think that the Although Accords will actually be
very relevant for Gaza as well, which maybe that could
be your next question.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Well, here's the thing though. You mentioned the Palestinian Authority
which is corrupt, in ept not respected by the Palestinians
living in Judean Samaria that were kicked out of Gaza,
and now you have Ramas that is controlling Gaza, and
I know there's the American administration. Our government would like
to have the Palestine Authority governing Gaza and have Israel

(18:32):
move out unrealistic because they're so weak and ineffective in
Jodan Samaria, and I don't think Israel wants them to
be in Gaza as well, but they're going to have
a hard time even if visual to say yes, they're
really almost not existent.

Speaker 11 (18:47):
So, first of all, I think there are few facts
that you laid out that are absolutely true cannot be denied.
First of all, the plastine authoriti is corrupt and there
is a huge issue of legitimacy.

Speaker 10 (18:58):
But the UEE is put for.

Speaker 11 (19:00):
The five point plan about upgrading the Palaestinian.

Speaker 10 (19:03):
Authority, which I think most of the.

Speaker 11 (19:05):
Countries in the region, Israel also the United States agrees to.
Israel adds two additional points, which is stop incitement number
one and stop what we call the paper slave. These
are the two major issues that Israel is adding. So
there is a seven point agenda for upgrading and improving
the plastinal authority.

Speaker 10 (19:26):
Now this is essential because there's no other way to
govern Gaza.

Speaker 11 (19:32):
Accept some sort of an extension of the self governing
body of the Palestinians, meaning the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization,
which is considered now the so legitimate representative of the
Palestinian people. This is the status of the PLO according
to the US, according to Israel, according to the world,
according to our countries, only a Palestinian entity that is

(19:57):
acknowledge and recognize that the PLO can actually govern Gaza,
which is effectively some form of the Palaestinan authority. The
UAE and Saudi and all these other countries will not
come into Gaza in the opposition of the Palestinians. They
will only come into Gaza if the Palestinians are inviting
them to come in, Otherwise they will be seen as

(20:18):
an occupying force.

Speaker 10 (20:20):
So what will be the future of Gaza.

Speaker 11 (20:22):
I know there are a lot of ideas floating around
about some sort of an international force, but that the
international force will need a mandate. A mandate needs to
be negotiated. This is very complex negotiations and.

Speaker 10 (20:33):
When people will begin to dive into these.

Speaker 11 (20:36):
Negotiations, they will very quickly realize that there is already
out there an agreement called the Oslo Interim what we
call Oslo B, which is the Interim Agreement which lays
out and addresses all of these issues. And it will
be much easier to reapply the agreement to Gaza than
to renegotiate an agreement with the Palestinia.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
But you're assumed that is your would leave Gaza. The
problem is Israel probably have to be there for years
to come, and because you have the Philadelphia card or Israel, listen,
let's be real.

Speaker 10 (21:09):
I agree it will take a while for sure, but
we have to.

Speaker 11 (21:15):
An ambassador of Freedman I think, said that he wants
to open a conversation, and he laid out a few
considerations to this conversation, and I'd like to add a
few considerations. The most important thing is there are seven
million Jews in Israel between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean.

Speaker 10 (21:32):
There's also seven million non Jews, two million.

Speaker 11 (21:36):
Israeli Arabs, roughly three million in the West Bank and
two million in Gaza. If Israeli is heading toward direct
control of the Palestinians in Gaza, it will be overstretched
and the cost will be tremendous in military, in economic,
in terms of international and generacy. So right now there's

(21:57):
bravado that we could hold Gaza, we could manage Gaza,
we can control the perimeter of Gaza. But sooner or later,
the cost and the burden of controlling Gaza will bring
Israel to exploring additional options.

Speaker 10 (22:14):
And at that point, and I agree with you, it
could be a few years, you.

Speaker 11 (22:18):
Know, we will be looking at some of what I'm
talking about, which is re extending those low courts to Gaza,
reintroducing the pastine authority to Gaza still exist by that
time in the West Bank and so on.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
But the problem with the Palestinian authority in Gaza would
also be is that Ramas through the mountain. Listen, And
the truth is it's going to be hard visual to
really defeat Ramas because you're Gonnat killed what is it,
four battalions, seventeen thousand out of thirty thousand terrorists, and
I'm sure there'll be new ones that are being recruited.
So it's a movement that will be hard to eradicate.

(22:53):
So at the end of the day, Israel has to
control the Philadelphia Corridor, and a reconstituted Palestine already would
be taken over by Hamas at some point too.

Speaker 11 (23:04):
Zev I have to remind you that there was Ramas
in Gaza even when we could call the Philadelphia Corridor, okay,
Ramas began way before we left the Philadelphia Corridor. Because
Hamas Gaza is an extension of the Masnim Brotherhood movement,
which is a global movement. Specifically Hamas in Gaza emanate.
It's from the Moslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt. It's kind

(23:24):
of a grassroot, authentic Palestinian movement. Hamas also has an
armed militia. Our enemy is the military capabilities of Ramas.
Following October's October seventh. We cannot allow and afford Hamas
to be a governing power. This is where the realistic
goals of Israel, and beyond that it's just unrealistic and

(23:46):
we're not unlikely to achieve this. Now, I would like
to think that we have done enough to demolish and
diminish and hopefully decimate the military power of Commas.

Speaker 10 (23:58):
Even if there are new record to Hamas.

Speaker 11 (24:01):
The tunnel system is severely compromised, the weapon creation system
is severely compromised. Senior military leaders are dead or wounded.
The numbers are staggering if you are on the perspective
of Commas.

Speaker 10 (24:14):
And once we have diminished.

Speaker 11 (24:16):
Fromas, this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to
change the structure of controlling Gaza. Our problem is that
our government in Israel does not put forward any vision
for that.

Speaker 10 (24:27):
So there's one missed opportunity after another.

Speaker 11 (24:30):
We already controlled many of the areas where we could
have introduced or brought in or offered to introduce an
alternative government.

Speaker 10 (24:38):
We didn't. We pulled out and now we need to
go back in.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
So was it a mistake for the pullout from Gaza?

Speaker 10 (24:44):
It was in two thousand and five.

Speaker 11 (24:46):
Correct, Look, things evolve over time and not everything. Nobody
could have forecasted what would happen over nineteen years.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
But I think our around in vision that Commas would
take over Gazi felt in dou the end of the
negotiations should do in some area.

Speaker 10 (25:02):
I know.

Speaker 11 (25:03):
I think that what I remember Daria Sean said is
that there would be military resistance against Israel, what they
call resistance coming out of Gaza against Israel.

Speaker 10 (25:14):
He wasn't kind of naive about that, but his idea.

Speaker 11 (25:18):
Was that fundamentally, seven million Jews cannot control seven million
non Jews and get away with the Jewish state.

Speaker 10 (25:25):
It's just not going to work.

Speaker 11 (25:27):
So he understood that Gaza has to be outside of Israel,
and I believe that until now, at least if you
still believe to something that Natanio says. He says that
Israel would not reapply Israeli sovereignty to Gaza. So basically,
two million Palestinas need to be outside of Israel.

Speaker 10 (25:45):
What will be the security structure on Gaza and so on,
It's an open question.

Speaker 11 (25:49):
I will say that Hamas kicked out the Plastina authority
in June two thousand and seven. We left Gaza in
August two thousand and five, so it was two years later.

Speaker 10 (26:00):
A lot happened between August.

Speaker 11 (26:03):
Two thousand and five and June two thousand and seven,
and the biggest thing that happened is that Bush administration
pushed for Palestinian elections against the Oslo courts. The Oslock
courts prevented the participation of Kramas in the Palestinian election,
but the Bush administration actually pushed for open elections with

(26:25):
the participation of Ramas.

Speaker 10 (26:27):
Which really is the origin of.

Speaker 11 (26:30):
The disaster that we're in is that decision to allow
Kramas to participate in the election. And they were Israelis
present company included and Palestinians who told the Americans, don't
do it. If Kamas does not accept the Oslo courts,
they should not be allowed to participate in the elections.

(26:51):
But they were confident that the Fatah, which is the
movement of Arvat and Abunasen, they will win the elections
and they thought that that would be the ultimate vindication
of the ODA process. So they made a huge, big
bet on these elections. So a lot of people go
back to the Gaza disengagement. But I go back to

(27:13):
the Parstinian elections in January two thousand and six and
that was the really big I think mistake that was done.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Our guests is Giddy Grinsty, Israeli social entrepreneur, the founder
the Rareed Group. Also a group called tom which deals
with mobility issues. That's amazing work. He's a captain reserved
in the Israeli Navy. One of his books is called
Insights Peacemaking in the Ancil Process. Thirty years in counting
right back, don't go away, stay tuned.

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Speaker 13 (30:07):
Hey, it's New York Times bestselling author and ghostwriter Michael
Levin and books are my Babies. Here's an amazing idea
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Speaker 6 (31:20):
Please welcome the one hundred and tenth Mayor of the
Great City of New York, Mayor Eric Adams.

Speaker 10 (31:26):
One of my favorite video shows. Always good speaking with youse,
take care.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
Thank you, mister Mayor.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
You're listening to talk Line with Zev Brenner, America's premier
Jewish broadcast on the air since nineteen eighty one.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
And now here's your host.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Jiddy Greenstein's our guests. He's an Israeli social chentrepreneur. He's
very much involved in the fabric of Jewish life. He
does amazing work with Tom tikin Ola makers, and he's
very passionate about what's happening in Israel, and he believes
that the Aziolo Cords could be the basis for solving
the Gozzla Camas war.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
Going to get some of your calls are.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Right now, let's go to let's see Jeff and flappersh
thank you for waiting. Go ahead your question of commons
for our guests.

Speaker 12 (32:06):
First of all, yes, there is either naive or seasick
because his coollution will lead to a form for the
same thing happened all these Arabs or Lomists, but against them.
That's what they believe. And part of the hardcore belief
is that all infants must they destroyed, and you're not

(32:28):
going to change. They all want hamas, that is what
they believe in, and to throw Palestine authority that I
believe that in that and keep going for Hamas, and
they're going to keep radical that's just their religion. Go
and change their religion, which you are not to. So
my question is when you changed your beliefs, because they're
very naive.

Speaker 11 (32:47):
So, first of all, you know, Jeff, national security is
about choices.

Speaker 10 (32:52):
So you just heard earlier about our freedom.

Speaker 11 (32:55):
Present the choice, and that is to integrate all these
what you call and I what do you call jew
hating people into Israel as equal rights citizens. And my
argument is that they shouldn't be part of Islam. They
should be part of a separate entity, obviously with all
the necessary security arrangements and so on.

Speaker 10 (33:18):
And this is the start choice.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Hold on, let hold, I'll let you respond, let him speak,
go ahead, getting.

Speaker 10 (33:24):
Yeah, this is the fundamental choice that you're looking at.

Speaker 11 (33:27):
Do you want to integrate them into our society or
do you want to be separate from them?

Speaker 10 (33:31):
And what my argument is, we have to I'm.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Going to answer you one second. Let him finish this thought.
I'm going to give you an opportunity. Come on, go ahead,
get it.

Speaker 11 (33:40):
And Jeff, I assume that you go to Jerusalem, right,
you visit question?

Speaker 12 (33:45):
I assume give these questions.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
Go ahead, you visit. He asked your question directly, Yes.

Speaker 11 (33:52):
But question hold on, let me just say, let me
just say this. I want to ask you, did you
ever visit to Bacher? Did you ever visit ka akeb
Do you even know where this visit?

Speaker 12 (34:06):
I visited Saudi Arabia?

Speaker 10 (34:07):
Okay, no, no, no, but did you visit to bach
Is a neighbor.

Speaker 12 (34:15):
I've been the June, I've been all.

Speaker 10 (34:16):
The Okay, excellent.

Speaker 11 (34:18):
So if you went to Jerusalem, for example, if you
go for the high holidays and you go to to Bacher, Okay,
you have you can have an insight into what this
kind of extension of sovereignty looks like. Okay, just to
give you a sense of numbers. To upgrade the Palestinians

(34:38):
in East Jerusalem to the average income of the Israeli
Arabs is a two hundred billion shekel investment, according to
a research that was done when nat whose nose left.

Speaker 10 (34:52):
Wing was was the mayor of Jerusalem. The average income.

Speaker 11 (35:00):
Okay, I'm just telling I'm just giving you a little
bit of numbers.

Speaker 10 (35:02):
Okay, the average income in the West.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
You'll get a chance. You'll get a chance. We have time,
you'll get a chance. Let him finish the store. I
give you a chance. Yes, go ahead.

Speaker 11 (35:11):
The average income in the West Bank is eighty five
hundred dollars a year. The poverty line in Israel is
ten thousand dollars a year. So integrating the Palestinians in
the West Bank is like adding three million poor Israelis
to the Israeli economy. And this is just the economic side, okay.

(35:31):
Just in terms of territory. It is like instead of
the United States building a wall to separate the US
from Mexico, it is like the US would try to
annex Mexico. This is relatively speaky what we're talking about.
So again, I would urge you to think about the

(35:52):
alternative that we're facing.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
Jeff, I'll let you. I'll let you respond. Go ahead, Jeff,
can I talk now?

Speaker 12 (35:57):
You miss you misunderstood the impact if you read his
book and his comments. What he's read and said is
the foeing that he will give a sovereignty to the Arabs,
offer them similarly what we have with Puerto Rico and
on our other territories. The religious rights, they have rights,
they have economic rights, do not have political rights. That

(36:21):
is what he's offering.

Speaker 10 (36:23):
So you misunderstood me.

Speaker 12 (36:25):
Sovereigns.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
Get let let him finish, Okay, Get Jeff, calm down.
You're going to go continue, Okay, but you gotta let
me talk. Jeff, I just continue. We have we don't
want to go ahead. Please.

Speaker 12 (36:37):
It's not offering them sovereignty. He's offering them what I
just saying, like the Puerto Ricans. Okay, well there's some moment.
If you're familiar, if you're familiar with the American government.

Speaker 11 (36:47):
Yes, but let me just give you a few distinctions
between those two stages. First of all, I understood the
abassador Freeman to say that the Palestinians in the West Bank,
the reference point.

Speaker 10 (36:56):
Is the Arab Israelis. He repeatedly said, like the ara
of Israelis.

Speaker 11 (37:00):
They have equal rights, they have their participate in the
economy and so on.

Speaker 12 (37:04):
He repeatedly made that misunderstood what he said because he says,
like Puerto Rico.

Speaker 11 (37:10):
But the other, but the other like the Puerto Rican
But the other point is that Puerto Rico is one territory,
and all across Puerto Rico, you have Puerto Rico, you.

Speaker 10 (37:21):
Have the same rights. In the case of Israel, you
have hundreds of thousands of people.

Speaker 12 (37:26):
They don't have political they have no political they have
no political rights.

Speaker 11 (37:30):
You have hundreds no, yeah, but everybody living in that
territory have the same political rights what we have in
the case of it.

Speaker 12 (37:37):
But they have no rights, they have no say so
on our federal at all.

Speaker 11 (37:41):
No, but everybody living in Puerto Rico has equal political rights.

Speaker 12 (37:47):
What you have in the they don't have. They don't
have political rights so themselves. If the Arabs want to
vote for them, let me vote for their mom. I don't.
They can't vote in the Cannesset.

Speaker 11 (37:58):
No, let me just say that what you have in
the West Bank is a mix between the populations. So basically,
what I understand you saying is that a Jewish kid
in Hebron will have health care provide insurance from the
government Israel, and the Palestinian kid in Hebron after Israel

(38:20):
annex Because Ambassadorophians spoke clearly about annexation.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
After sovereign he didn't like the word annex but.

Speaker 10 (38:27):
Okay, sovereignty.

Speaker 11 (38:28):
Israel extend sovereignty to Hebron. Okay, let's use that as
an example. You have two kids in the same street.
One is Jewish and therefore he has elevated healthcare rights,
and the other one next door about and that kid
doesn't have the same health.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
Health Who said they won't have the same health right?
Who says they won't know?

Speaker 10 (38:54):
I think that's what you have to say.

Speaker 12 (38:55):
What the Arab doctors are better than the Jewish doctor?

Speaker 10 (39:00):
No, I'm talking about the west Bank. You're talking about Israel.

Speaker 11 (39:02):
I'm talking about the west Bank, two different situations.

Speaker 12 (39:05):
And you tell me the west Bank not good doctors.

Speaker 10 (39:10):
No, no, no. What I'm saying is.

Speaker 12 (39:12):
That, no, they're not good doctors.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
But he's trying I'm going to cut to the chase
to saying.

Speaker 12 (39:19):
Around the brush. I'm saying civil rights includes medical rights, okay,
but it doesn't the right to vote in the federal election.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
But he's saying Getty's that everybody will have the same
rights in every area except for voting for the CONNESSSA.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
That's really what it is.

Speaker 12 (39:31):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 10 (39:33):
You're saying is I'll go with what Zev just suggested.

Speaker 11 (39:36):
Everybody will have the same social rights, same you know,
non political rights, but when it comes to politics, they
will not vote for these.

Speaker 10 (39:44):
And I'm telling you no, the.

Speaker 11 (39:48):
Internationally, because you know the pressure will be so big
to take that.

Speaker 12 (39:53):
Old pressure that that you won't be able to go
to Swift puri vacation. Don't go to Switzerland. I don't
know what you mean by.

Speaker 10 (40:00):
Jeff, Yes, I want to know what you're talking about.
I'm talking about exports.

Speaker 11 (40:07):
I'm talking about the fact that participation in international competitions. Okay,
I happen to serve on the international committee of the
Israel Soccer Soccer Association.

Speaker 10 (40:18):
Okay, what you're saying if I am a Jewish time, yeah,
listen to me.

Speaker 12 (40:25):
Okay, hope you let me.

Speaker 10 (40:26):
What you're saying is. What you're saying is that if.

Speaker 11 (40:29):
There is a Jewish team in Rebron, they play in
the Israeli League and they can participate in the Israeli
National League. But if there is a Palestinian team in Rebron,
they cannot do that.

Speaker 10 (40:41):
Believe me, that will be the end of Israeli soccer
and basketball.

Speaker 12 (40:45):
And have their own team in the Olympics. Okay, the
Puerto Ricans have their own team in the Olympics, even
though you know that.

Speaker 11 (40:53):
Okay, So let me ask you this, will the Palestinians
who live in East Jerusalem, Will they be part of
the team in the Olympics or the Palestinian.

Speaker 10 (41:02):
Team in the Olympics.

Speaker 12 (41:03):
I think you should ask just like the Puerto Ricans
who are one hundred percent Puerto Rico.

Speaker 10 (41:14):
Tea that you said you're going to use visit to
Israel to go there extremely.

Speaker 4 (41:19):
Nice, Hey, Jeff, I appreciate you.

Speaker 12 (41:21):
What do you want me to know? No, no, no,
finished with this conversation.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Hold on, we're gonna watching the clock. You have thirty seconds.

Speaker 12 (41:27):
Give me him. I'm telling them to The ambassador said,
like Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico has its own wings. If
they're part of the United States, they do not have
federal rights, have local rights. And that's all.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Anyway, thank you for your phone call. I appreciate it.
We're gonna move on.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
Let's go.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
We'll squeeze one. We're call before we break. Let's go
to stand and for ourselves, standing for ourselves.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
Go ahead.

Speaker 14 (41:47):
Yeah, I found that conversation a little convoluted. But look,
here's the point. Let's go back in hit. Let's go
down memory lane to Gaza. When did Israel get out
twenty twenty five years ago?

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Two thousand?

Speaker 12 (42:02):
What was he?

Speaker 14 (42:02):
A two thousand and five year said? Okay, nineteen years.
They gave it up. Okay, my friend, they gave it up.
This is this is primate fature of it. They gave
it up. Go ahead, build it, make it an immaculate garden.
We'll help you.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
No, stay out.

Speaker 14 (42:20):
And what did they do for nineteen years? They built tunnels,
they armed guns. Then that's why Gaza was what it
is today, and those hostages wound up in these tunnels. Sir,
you delude yourself. I don't necessarily agree with many callers here,
but the guy is right. You underestimate that these people
want to destroy Israel. I wouldn't give them the left

(42:43):
side of any part of this country. They're not gonna
get it. There will not be a Palestinian state. And
if you don't see it, you know you're naive. The
guy's right, you're not. I'm a limberal by the way,
Zev knows me. I'm extremely liberal. I want there to
be peace, but these people don't want They want the Israeli.
They want Israel dead. If you can't see that, I

(43:05):
feel sorry for you.

Speaker 10 (43:06):
Thank you so first though, So okay, go ahead, Well,
thank you for feeling sorry for me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 11 (43:13):
But I just want to tell you that you have
to look at the options available to you. Saying no
about one option doesn't make the other option better or worse. Okay,
Israel seven million Jews will not be able to control
seven million non Jews and get.

Speaker 10 (43:28):
Away with the Jewish state. If you think we can
do that.

Speaker 11 (43:31):
If you think that seven million Jews can control seven
million non Jews and still have their state be called Israel,
their national symbol be called them an aura, our flag
resemble the talent, I think you're delusional. I think you
actually have no kind of reference in history that this
could be done. What happens is that Hamas is now

(43:54):
so diminished, and that's what creates the opportunity. If you
look at the Trump Plan okay of January to twenty,
if you take the time to read the opening of
the plan, you will see that one of the conditions
for the implementation of the Trump Plant is actually the
removal of Hamas. And we are very very close to

(44:15):
this point. What I'm telling you is that this war
has created the historic opportunity for us. Of course, we
can walk away from this opportunity and then five years,
ten years from now, we will be burdened with taking
care of two million pastinis in Gaza and three million
pastins in the West Bank, with tremendous consequences.

Speaker 10 (44:34):
I'm pointing out to the opportunity.

Speaker 12 (44:36):
Now.

Speaker 11 (44:36):
Of course, you can say this is not an opportunity.
We want to move on, We want to control Gaza.
Israel is now delivering one point six million doses of
polyovaccine in Gaza.

Speaker 4 (44:48):
Who's paying for that? By the way, do we know
who's paying for that?

Speaker 11 (44:51):
I would not be surprised if this Israel is paying
a lot of it. And the other thing is and
even if you don't, now, we will pay for it
in the future. That the water system in Gaza is destroyed, okay,
someone will have to provide water. The sewitch system in
Gaza is destroyed, someone is going to have to rebuild it.
And if it's going to be us, the world is

(45:13):
telling us, you broke it, you fix it this. We're
talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars that
are going to have to be spent in Gaza because
we are responsible for Gaza. So I urge your listeners
to actually think about the alternatives that are facing the
State of.

Speaker 10 (45:30):
Israel in this context. In the context of.

Speaker 11 (45:32):
This conversation, I'm not saying that there are no risks
in what I'm saying and what I'm in the.

Speaker 10 (45:38):
In the option that I'm pointing out to.

Speaker 11 (45:40):
I'm telling you that the risks going down the other
path are much much greater because the risk going down
to the other path may compromise the very essence of Israel,
which is a Jewish state where the Jewish people can
realize the right of self determination. This is what is
at stake because if we apply sovereignty, we don't say annexed.

(46:02):
Apply sovereignty, which by the way, is the platform of
this government and Nathaniel government first time after eighty six years,
is to apply sovereignty in the West Bank.

Speaker 10 (46:13):
If we do that, okay, we are seeing the consequences.

Speaker 11 (46:17):
The consequences are the whole world is turning against us,
and there's going to be a lot of other things.
And by the way, the sanctions of the settlements they
began now, there were no sanctions on the settlements and
on settlers until December twenty twenty two when this government
was established.

Speaker 10 (46:35):
The sanctions are coming now and I can.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
But they're coming under a Biden ministrator. They will not
come under a Trump administration.

Speaker 10 (46:42):
You know what.

Speaker 11 (46:43):
A lot of these sanctions are not just coming from
the United States, They're coming from other places.

Speaker 10 (46:47):
And the Trump administration don't.

Speaker 11 (46:49):
Rule out that America has other interests in the Middle East,
not just Israel. America has interest in Saudi. America has
interest in Egypt, America is interested in Jordan, and all
these countries have their own way of looking things. So
if Israel extends its sovereignty as was suggested earlier, and
digest the West Bank and Gaza, Okay, what do you

(47:11):
think happens with the agreements with Egypt and Jordans?

Speaker 10 (47:15):
What do you think do you think there'll be a
Saudi deal?

Speaker 11 (47:18):
All these things are primary American interests because America is
looking to pivot from the Middle East and to increase
its and to move its assets to the Far East,
and toward that, America is trying to build these alliances.
So if we go with the sovereignty, there'll be a
lot of pushback.

Speaker 10 (47:35):
And President Trump may be very.

Speaker 11 (47:37):
Committed to the Jews and to the Jewish people in Israel,
he's also committed to the Saudist and he also cares
about what the Saudis have to say. So it's not
an open game. It's not sort of a free reign here.
There's been a lot of opposition and the further but.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
We're gonna break it.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
But the Saudis also don't want to see a militant
Hamas they're also against Iran. So they may say one
thing publicly, but privately it may be different because they
do not want to see Hamas in Judea and Samaria.
They don't want to see Hamas and Gaza.

Speaker 10 (48:09):
This is our opportunity.

Speaker 11 (48:11):
You're just describing a key element of our opportunity, which
is that for the first time, we have key Arab
countries Egypt, Jordans, Okay, Saudi, Yui bah all aligned with us,
and they're telling us we will help you reconstruct Gaza,
we will help you address your security concerns, we will

(48:32):
help you.

Speaker 10 (48:32):
De radicalize Gaza. But it has to be.

Speaker 11 (48:36):
In the context of a political horizon that includes the
principle of two states for two people.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
Well mean three.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, listen, Jordan is really a Palestinian state, so let's
be realistic.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
Gristan is our guests, Israel social pleasure.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
We have emails I didn't get I didn't get to
the emails yet, but Getdy is is real social trumpreneur.
His big thing is Tom ticun Olam Maker is a
global nonprofit aids to Disabled Liam Porr.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
He's a captain.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
He's really navy, but he's passionate about bringing Oslo to
Gaza and feels it too.

Speaker 11 (49:12):
Stations asli national security, and I believe that you leave a.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Two state solution. Let's see that's your believe in a
two state solution. So don't go aways, stay tuned.

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Speaker 13 (53:08):
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six oh five five six two five one sixty seven
six oh five five six two five one six seven.
We broadcast twenty four hours a day with the exception
of Friday night, and shoppers catch us talkline network dot com,

(55:19):
talkline network dot com and please they'll be in touch
with us at two one, two seven six nine nineteen
twenty five. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you for joining
us here on the Talkline Network. I'm Zev Brenner.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Shalom.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Thank you for tuning in to Talkline with Zev Brenner,
America's premier Jewish broadcast, the Pulsebeed of the Jewish community.

Speaker 6 (55:41):
For continuous Jewish programs Talkline network dot com. We're our
twenty four hour day listen line at six four one seven, four, one,
o three eight nine. For past shows. You can find
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podcast platforms, or Jewish podcast dot org. Thanks for listening
to The Chalkline Network.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Dot com was a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's hosting of this
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