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its Memorial Day and we're going togo to France to speak to around by
Jacob J. Shackter. He's founderwith a group called Operation Benjamin, and
what they do is they have discoveredAmerican Jewish soldiers who are buried under the
(02:59):
cross, not the mug and duvet. And his mission is to make sure
that the United States government and theArmy change the marcation from cross to mug
and duvet and pay tribute to thesebrave American Jewish soldiers who fought and died
for our country. You don't missour special broadcast America's only Jewish radio program
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What are you doing? This Sunday, June fourth, Join us at the
world's largest gathering in support of Israelon its seventy fifth anniversary at the Celebrate
Israel Parade and block party with specialguests Matta Siau and Leavy Israeli performer Harrel
Scotts. The renowned Maccabeat's Soul Farmin twenty five floats, thirteen bands,
and thousands of marchers This Sunday,eleventh to four along Fifth Avenue from fifty
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seventh to seventy fourth Streets block partyat sixty third Street. Visits Celebrate Israel
NY dot org eating mostly plant foodslike fruits, vegetables, whole grains and
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Torah Anytime is a world organization.It's based in New York, but it
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They're offering Totra twenty four hours aday worldwide. Turning Time is having
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individual could give, they will havethe single greatest sluice in this world.
Come on investor. This is thebest investment I've ever made. Where else
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fact we're on the line to Francebecause rob By Jacob j Shact, who
has been a frequent guest in ourprogram, prominent American Orthodox rabbi's scholar,
lecturistarian. He's also the founder ofOperation Benjamin. And where they want to
make sure is that American soldiers inEurope they were buried under the Cross,
get a Jewish burial, make surewhere that they have a mug and duvet
(10:01):
on their grave. In fact,we're speaking to him right now. He's
on his way to Normandy in otherareas to make sure to continue his mission,
which he founded in twenty eighteen.Robber J. J. Chacter,
thank you for joining us again.Zab It's always a pleasure to be with
you, to speak with you,and especially under these circumstances, to share
a little bit about the work thatwe're doing. So Sharon, you know,
(10:22):
most people don't think about Jews beingin the American military having a prominent
role, but in all the majorwars, Jews were in the military.
But it was especially unique during WorldWar Two and that a lot of Jews
didn't have a Jewish identity tag whenthey were buried, that there were bird
under the La crosse. So youhave discovered that so many have been not
(10:43):
been getting a Jewish burial. So, first of all, how did you
come how did you get started withhim? How did you come to learn
about these kinds of situations. Itstarted in twenty eighteen when I was with
a group of friends and we weretouring the Normandy American Military Cemetery. And
as we're walking around, it's verysolemn, it's very serious, it's very
holy, and it's very organized andvery specific, and in every direction,
(11:09):
it's a direct straight line, onecross behind another cross behind another cross in
three directions, and the sympmetry isbroken every once in a while by a
Jewish star. And as I wasworking around, I realized that there should
be more Jewish stars. When Igot back to the States, I mentioned
it my friends Alem Lamb and thathe got really excited about this and started
(11:33):
working on it very very much andtry to figure out a way how we
can move in a direction of repatriatingthese wonderful soldiers who gave their lives for
America, to have them placed undera marker that represents their ancestral faith.
(11:54):
Now, do we have any ideaabout how many Jewish soldiers served our country
during World War Two? There area couple of hundred thousand Jewish soldiers.
We don't know exactly, we havea general number, but that's about two
point eight percent of those who foughtduring World War Two. So clearly they're
(12:18):
going to be many fewer Jewish starsthan there are crosses. But we still
feel that there should be four Jewishstars. Our estimate is roughly around four
hundred and fifty roughly American Jewish soldiersburied overseas in American military cemeteries are buried
under crosses, and our job isto fix that and to be able to
(12:41):
properly place a Jewish star over them, to mark them as Jews for all
eternity. So how do you goabout doing it? Are you looking for
Jewish names on the tombs films?Are using a database to do it?
Are you having people looking at theactual graves? How is it being done?
Or starting with what we call thelow hanging fruit with Jewish names and
(13:05):
sometimes in fact they are Jews,but sometimes they're not. We can have
a Jewish man who married a nonJewish woman and has a child, and
that child as a soldier, andthat soldier is not Jewish, even though
the father's name, the father wasJewish, and as a family name.
We started first. The first onewe saw as Mendel Jacobson. We figured,
(13:28):
Mentel Jacobson is a good chance thathe's Jewish. Turns out his father
was Jewish, but his mother wasnot. So sometimes actually they don't turn
out to be Jewish. Sometimes theydo. The way we find that out
is we have a genealogist on ourstaff that does a lot of research to
determine the Jewish identity and the soldier. But then we found out very early
(13:52):
on that the army will not makeany changes unless a request comes from a
family member of the soldier. Andthen it gets much more difficult because the
soldier died when he was nineteen twenty. His parents along God, he has
three sisters. They're all married withother family names, so it's a real
(14:15):
effort. But thank God, sofar we've met with success and found family
members and through a complex process,have been able to engage them, and
we helped them write a coffer letterto the Army agency in charge of these
cemeteries. We provide them with allthe data and we've developed such a good
(14:37):
relationship with them. What originally tookeighteen months to get okay went out down
to about a month for each soldier. That's amazing. Now you find these
names in the database correct, Yeah, there are Jewish Welfare Board databases.
In Normandy. Every single grave isput up on the website. It's one
(15:03):
of the only American military cemeteries overseaswhere there's a separate site on the website
for every single grave with a pictureof the grave and a little bio of
the soldier. And so that makesit a lot easier for us. But
now we're also at a point whenwe're getting false from people now that the
word is out where we do bythe little can you help me? I
(15:28):
have a relative under red cross?Is there anything that you could do.
We've been trying to get this changedand we've been having difficulty. Maybe you
could help us. Now, howmany graves of soldiers have you been able
to identify and now actually change fromthe cross to the mug and dovin At
(15:48):
this point we've done twenty. We'vedone twenty in the Vanilla, in the
Philipines, in our Dan, inBelgium, in Luxembourg, and in Normandy,
and tomorrow we're doing two in Brittany, which is further west of Normandy.
In France, so we've been alreadyin a number of countries. We've
(16:12):
changed twenty markers. February of twentytwenty, right before COVID I traveled with
Shallow and a group of other peopleto Manila. We did five one day,
and our group has been back twiceto Manila in the last couple of
(16:32):
years. And our goal is totry to expedite this so that we can
get as many done. Our goalis to go out of business. Our
goal is to finish the job andto be able to make sure that everyone
who is Jewish should so be identifiedforever. Now you're concentrating on World War
two Korean War, do you goback, let's say, to World War
(16:56):
One or even earlier when not evendoing the Korean War, that doesn't seem
to be such a major issue there. Started with World War Two. We've
got four hundred and fifty, whichmeans we have four hundred and thirty roughly
to go. They're about twenty inthe pipeline. So we will consider ourselves
(17:18):
very successful if we can complete thework to the World War two veterans.
But our understanding is that for WorldWar One, the estimate is about one
hundred and fifty American Jewish soldiers undercrosses. But you understand very well that
that's much more complicated to go finda family rent member who will be able
(17:38):
to assert this relationship and advocate onbehalf of the change. Now, are
there any rules if there are nofamily members that make it easier for you
to do anything? Or the lawis rigid where if you don't have a
family member requesting to change, theywon't do anything. The matter is the
(18:00):
case. They've told us that evenwhen they recognize an acknowledge and the soldier
is Jewish, that we and theyhave no right to make any change because
who knows what the story was,who knows what the background was, who
knows what was going on in thelife of that soldier or his family,
even if they are identified or wecan say that they were Jewish. So
(18:22):
we absolutely required a family member,and so far we have found family members
in every single instance. Now sometimesit's three generations. The average family member
is a great niece or a greatnephew. We have found a brother,
(18:44):
we found a daughter, very rare, you can understand, but average it's
three generations down. Now, haveyou had any resistance from family members saying
I'm out into the Jewish thing.I really don't care. In one case,
family member told us that there isa lore in the family that before
the soldier went to war, hehad a fight with his father, who
(19:10):
everybody apparently agrees was a very difficultman, and said that if I go
and die in the army, Iwant to go under a cross. So
this was their family tradition, andso therefore they told us that they're not
in a position to authorize this markerchange. We have had so far one
(19:32):
case of a Christian family where thesoldier married a Christian woman, had a
child, he was killed, andwe were dealing with Christian grandchildren, and
we were able to have a veryfrank, sincere sensitive, thoughtful conversation and
at the end they did agree tothe marker change and we took care of
(19:56):
that about two months ago in theirlaw. And so so far, thank
god, we've been quite successful.The challenge is to find the family member,
have the family member respond to us, because we send them an email
and it goes into the into thegarbage slot. You know, Sam,
(20:18):
you know there? You know Hi. Hi, my name is Jake Shackter.
I found out something about your greatuncle, I think it would be
of interest to you, and that'sthat's the end of it. So we
have to figure out ways how toengage a family and once we do.
So far it's a lot of steps, but thank god, so far we've
been able to get the garner theirsupport for this purpose. Worst Member by
(20:44):
Jacob J. Shackter. He isfounder of Operation Benjamin, the prominent Orthodox
Rabbi historian, and we're speaking tohim in France. He's actually on a
bus as we speak, regarding hisactivities as identifying soldiers who died on to
lacrosse and fry and bring them backto be buried under a mug and dubbed
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Windows has been serving the community forover thirty years. Commercial and residential accounts
welcome online at Windows dot com.What are you doing This Sunday, June
fourth, Join us at the world'slargest gathering in support of Israel on its
seventy fifth anniversary at the Celebrate IsraelParade and block party with special guests Marthe
(22:15):
Siau and Levy Israeli performer Horal Scott, the renowned Maccabee's Soul Farming, twenty
five floats, thirteen bands, andthousands of marchers. This Sunday, eleven
to four Orlong Fifth Avenue from fiftyseven to seventy fourth Streets Block Party at
sixty third Street. Visits Celebrate Israelny dot org. This is Idani Rodriguez,
(22:36):
Commissioner of the New York City Departmentof Transportation, Mayor Eric Adams,
and I want to emanu that thingshappened fast on the street. When you're
driving, you're speaking, feel slow, but if you hit someone eastery.
Finally, fast drivers watch out forpedaians and cyclists and slowly turns to less
(22:56):
down five miles per hour. Rememberspeeding ruins lives slow down at this point.
Tora Anytime is a world organization.It's based in New York, but
it really has reaches all over theworld. Over twelve million hours of total
learning. They're offering Torah twenty fourhours a day worldwide. Turning Time is
(23:19):
having their annual fundraising campaign. Everydollar that you invest in Tora Anytime reaches
tens of thousands of people that impacthouseholds across the world. Where it comes
to the time of spreading clients forluring the entire world, which should be
no boarders is doctors and out bordersis tired without borers. That's started.
Anytime, whatever an individual could give, they will have the single greatest sluice
(23:41):
in this world. Come an investor. This is the best investment I've ever
made. Where else can someone donatea quarter and have an hour learned to
that quarter. We started off asa website, moving on to a mobile
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lot more to come. We cangrow even more thanks to your helping your
(24:02):
support, So donate today. Beas generous as you can with your donation
to tour any Time. Zata Chamishould be a tremendous huss for you and
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(25:07):
listening to talk Line with Zev Brenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast on the year
since nineteen eighty one. And nowhere's your host, where Jacob J.
Shackter. He is a founder ofOperation Benjamin, the prominent Orthodox Rabbi historian,
and we speaking to him in France. He's actually on a bus as
(25:27):
we speak, regarding his activities asidentifying soldiers who died under the cross and
trying to bring him back to beburied under a mug and dove. In
fact, that's what they're doing rightnow, is put changing the crosse to
a mug and dove. That's whattheir mission is. How often do you
take groups of do yourself go onthese missions to do the work of actually
(25:51):
making that change. The missions areabout at this point three or for a
year. I can't go on allof them because I'm a whole time at
Eshitia University, so I have classesto teach the Center for the George Future.
Right, Well, at this pointit's more Hi's been years Agohana and
Rabbi Ashana Theological Seminary. I teachin the Bernard Revel Graduate School. I
(26:15):
teach Inton College. There are allkinds of segments of Hia University that I'm
involved in, so that takes upa lot of my time. So I'm
not able to travel as much asthe group travels. Slam Lamb goes to
all of these marker changes and thisis our largest group. We brought fifty
(26:38):
five people with us on this missionand so far it's been extraordinary. And
the police got Tomorrow will be theculmination through the marker change in these three
cases. Now, how does itwork? Because obviously you're doing a lot
of research. Even to change onegrave marker from cross to mugg and dovit
(27:02):
takes time. You got to dothe research, make sure the person's Jewish,
you gott identify the family members,you got to contact the proper authoris,
and you've got to arrange to havea cross chains to a mugg and
dovit. Well, this is timeconsuming, I would assume expensive. So
who was funding this? How isit? Are you able to do this?
So far? We are working ona shoe string budget and as a
(27:23):
result, I'm not able to domore than a couple a year. Our
goal is slowly to get the wordout and to be able to find people
who will resonate with our mission andbe able to be supportive so that we
could hire more genealogists to be ableto finish this job sooner. At this
(27:45):
rate, I'm going to need tobe two hundred and ninety eight years old
before this whole thing is wrapped up. So it's a school of fire ricosument,
but that's not going to happen.So you're absolutely right catching out something
that is extremely important to us,and our hope is that people and you're
listening audience who will hear this hopefullymight resonate with it. They have had
(28:08):
a parent, a grandparents who servedin the armed forces and will contact us
our website www dot Operation Benjamin dotorg and we will be happy to welcome
whatever donations we can receive. Andit's an important cause and people who want
to get involved with about the informationwhere to contact rated by j J sh
(28:30):
Act Operation Benjamin. Question that Ihave is in World War Two was dangerous
for an American soldier to have aJewish tag because they got quote by Nazis
didn't want they were Jewish. Iwould assume that's probably what makes it more
complicated in subsequent wars, such asthe Vietnam War or the career. Was
that the same kind of a promise, far as you can tell, I
(28:52):
know you're not working on that,but were it more easily identifiable to tell
the religion of an individual soldier ifthey get killed in action. I'm not
an expert in that, but myimpression is that in World War Two was
when this problem was that it's mostacute precisely because they were fighting the Nazis,
(29:14):
and precisely because they knew exactly whatthe Nazis were doing for Jews.
They simply did not want to beidentified as a Jew. Who should they
become a pow. It was badenough if they were an American pow,
but to layer on a Jewish identitywould have made their faith much more complex,
and so they defeasd the dog tag. The dog tag in the corners
(29:37):
as either a P for Protestant,a C for Catholic, or an AGE
for Hebrew. That goes way backto around the time of the Civil War,
and they went in with the ages, but they banged it out as
they started to get involved in theEuropean theater, fighting Germany, and so
(29:59):
their you're absolutely right, dev itdoes make it much more difficult. And
we're not alleging any untoward inappropriate behavioron the part of the army. There's
the legitimate mistakes these soldiers are.These soldiers are buried two or three or
four times, and mistakes happen,and the fact that they don't have a
(30:26):
clear age is understandable and so makesit much more difficult. Now, I'm
curious when somebody enlist in the army, did they declare their religions on the
army papers when they first game andthere's when they had the dog tags?
Was that how was that generated?Was generated themselves by the army. So
if if we generate by the army, there should be more of a record.
(30:48):
People themselves told the army what theywanted and the army responded accordingly.
There are times many times with theJewish Welfare Board has a record of the
Jewish identity of the soldiers who wereJewish, and we use that database significantly,
and also the army itself. Wehave what's called a file or a
(31:14):
folder on every single soldier and there'sa lot of correspondence back and forth,
particularly pertaining to those who were killedas the way they should be buried,
in how they should be buried.So there is corroborating evidence that is forthcoming
from other sources as well, andthat's really where we go to try to
be able to identify the Jewish natureof this soldier. So there are records
(31:40):
which would show the H was whatthe soldiers requested, but if they didn't
for whatever reason, they didn't requestthe H because they were afraid of being
captured by the Nazis. So that'swhere the problem will begin because there's no
official record of them. It's onlywhat the research that you would do with
genealogists to uncover the names. Andeither they didn't request the age or they
(32:01):
did, but then they got ridof it and they banged it out as
they got closer to war. Butif they banged it out themselves, wouldn't
the official records show the age forHebrew. Yes, So that's when we
go to the Jewish Welfare Board andwe go the Army records to the extent
(32:21):
in which they're available, and that'sreally the ultimate avenue of research for us
to thank this determination. Now,what has been the reaction to Operation Benjamin
to other Jewish groups and christof anyCongressional or Senate members have said, hey,
this is a great idea. You'reshowing the patriotism of Jews to the
(32:42):
United States. That's a wonderful question. We are now in the process of
trying to garner federal funds from varioussources to be supportive of our works.
We have encountered tremendous respect. Werespect the work that the American Battle Monuments
Commission has been doing. That's theArmy agency charge with taking care of these
(33:07):
cemeteries. We have great respect forthem. We have gotten their great respect,
and they've been very supportive of ourefforts. So we're trying to get
all different avenues of federal funding totry to help us. So long processes,
you can understand. Even if weget the funding, so it kicks
(33:27):
in in a fiscal year at twentytwenty five, but that would be helpful
for us as well, and it'sa huge priority for us to be able
to get this funding, and wehave every expectation that, please God,
it will be forthcoming. Now,what does it cost per average soldier to
do the research and eventually change fromthe cause to the mugg and of it.
(33:52):
That's a really good question. Idon't know. I don't know what
the answer is. I don't know. Are the charge for the time of
the genealogist Chulam Lamb is the onewho's really really helping us, and there
(34:12):
is a salary in his case.There's a trample U, there is research,
there are all kinds of courts thatrelate to this. So it's hard
for me to break it down persoldier. Sometimes we can expand an enormous
amount of energy on a soldier.Sometimes we can get the job done with
less. It's hard to know exactly. So we'll kind of budget you operating
(34:37):
on a yearly basis. So we'relooking at now two hundred, two hundred
and fifty thousand, but we needa lot more than that in order to
move this agenda forward. No,obviously it's a labor of love. Now,
as far as making the change fromthe court to the mugg and dove
does the is our government doing that? You have to pay for that,
(34:57):
or that's being done by by thedepartments dealing with the cemeteries. Once we
determine that the soldier is Jewish,once we get the family to be supportive
and initiate a request to the army, Once the army ocays it, then
the Army, at its own expense, will create a new marker with a
(35:21):
Jewish star with the name of thesoldier, the data soldier was killed,
the state that the soldier came from. All the information that hitherto had been
on the cross will now be inscribedonto a marker with a Jewish star,
totally at army expense. Because theseindividuals, these soldiers served our country and
(35:45):
for whatever reason, they were buriedunder the wrong religious symbols. So the
Army is correcting a mistake that wasmade seventy years ago or longer. That's
correct. They are absolutely committed togetting the historical record straight and therefore they
take responsibility for doing so. Oncewe could prove that in fact a mistake.
(36:07):
Movie Rab by Jacob J. Shactoris our guests, the American Orthodox
rab By historian. He's at ShibaUniversity, but his passion as you can
hear his Operation Benjamin, which hefound in twenty eighteen to identify American Jewish
soldiers buried under the crust and tomake sure they get a proper, respectful
burial under the mug and doved eatingmostly plant foods like fruits, vegetables,
(36:31):
whole grains, and beans. It'sgood for your health. I use beans
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(36:53):
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I'm always in knee of a peacefulstart to the day. As the sun
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Runner at gewail dot com at thispoint. Tora Anytime is a world organization.
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the entire world. There should beno boarders as doctors and out borders is
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(38:43):
this is the best investment I've evermade. Where else can someone donate a
quarter and half an hour learned tothat quarter. We started off as a
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anytime, tested anytime, and alot more to come and we can grow
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Get Covered NYC or visit at NYCdot gov slash get Covered NYC. You're
listening to Line with Zev Brenner,America's premier Jewish broadcast on the year since
(42:04):
nineteen eighty one. And now here'syour host. Rabbi Jacob J. Sh
Actor is our guests, American Orthodoxrabbi historian. He's at University. But
his passion, as you can hear, his Operation Benjamin, which he found
in twenty eighteen to identify American Jewishsoldiers buried under the cross and to make
(42:24):
sure they get a proper, respectfulburial under the mugg and Dovid. Now,
when you go and you have thechange from the cross to the mug
and Dovid, is there a specialceremony that you have put together to make
that change that's a great question.So I'm a rabbi. I've been a
pulpit rabbi for two and a halfthree decades, and I remember enjoyed hearing
(42:50):
you at the Jewish Center Manhattan formany years. Yes, yes, that's
where we first interacted to have andI remember it very very well. And
there is a book, a manualfor rabbis. This is how you run
a funeral, This is how yourun an unfailing. This is how you
run a wedding. There's nothing inthere about this is how you change a
(43:12):
Latin cross to a jew were star. So when I first started this twenty
eighteen was our first marker change.I created from whole cloth the ceremony.
So there's a prayer for the government. There are passages from psalms from to
Hillam. There are kalmalle Rachman.There's a memorial prayer in Hebrew in English.
(43:35):
The psalms that to hill Them arealso in Hebrew in English. We
want members of the family who cometo be able to participate. Not all
of them can read Hebrew. Andthen family members speak. I speak Shalam,
Lamb speaks. The superintendent of eachcemetery. Whenever we go we invite
the superintendent to speak. Tomorrow,We're having the superintendent of the Normandy Cemetery
(44:00):
plus one of the commissioners of theAmerican Battle Monuments Commission, very high up
in the ranks of the American Armywho will be speaking as well. And
that's the ceremony, and it's verymoving, very touching. We conclude with
the Kottish batiboard. We all recitethe kottage together, and that provides closure,
(44:24):
provides we now have for all eternityrectified this mistake the soldiers and a
shama we feel somehow and the familyhas closure. The family sees this and
it means the world to them thattheir loved one now is under the proper
(44:46):
market that represents their ancestral faith.Now you mentioned to take the family is
that's part of the expenses that youencourage. Provide the transportation for the family
to go to the grave. Weonly do so under very extreme circumstances when
(45:07):
the family member really really wants tocome and just simply is unable to afford
it. But the vast majority oftime the family pays their own way.
We don't take money from them,We tell them right up front, but
don't take any money from them withoutdoing this in order to get money from
them, so they're not paying foranything. They're paying to get themselves there.
(45:31):
And all the work, all theeffort, all the research, all
the discussions with the army, allthe negotiations, all the connections. That's
on our time now is which isso nice. And you find that the
most cases the family is interested ingoing and being part of the ceremony whenever
they possibly could. They are veryinterested. This is really meaningful to them.
(45:57):
In some cases, the family tellsus that they knew that their uncle
great uncle was under recuesse actually wroteto the army requesting a marker change,
but never heard from anybody. Now, dear Secretary of the Army, I'd
like you to help me, andthe letter goes nowhere, so that when
we come to them, they jumpon this opportunity. In some cases they
(46:22):
didn't know. Both cases they know, extremely grateful, very interested in participating.
In fact, tomorrow we're having aniece of someone whose marker change we
changed in twenty eighteen, coming backit's now twenty twenty three, five years
(46:42):
later, to be with us,with her grandchildren, to be with us.
That the marker changed tomorrow, andNormandy we changed her uncle five years
ago. So here we have afamily member who's not even a family member
of someone whose marker is being changedfive years ago. Very meanful, I'm
can imagine, very meaningful and bringsclosure. Now, can you give us
(47:04):
an idea some of the soldiers thatyou've had discovered buried under the cross?
Now, I assume to come fromdifferent kinds of back. Would any of
them come from more religious background?We're even more important for them. What
have you discovered about the actual peoplethemselves? We have not found soltists will
come from a more religious this background. In one case, we have encountered
(47:29):
a soldier actually who's buried under aJewish star, but we've discovered in his
army filed a huge correspondence going backto pretty much after he was killed in
very steady bear Palestine. This isbefore nineteen forty eight. The family is
begging the army to assume his remainsunder a Jewish star and sent him to
(47:53):
Palestine. And that's a family Basiacofamily. This is a been a rock
family. This is a seriously traditionalfamily who for whatever reason didn't respond when
they were given the choice of repatriatingtheir love to the States. So that
(48:14):
was the only family to the bestof my recollector. Now, in that
particular family case, they wanted thebody to be sent to Israel for burial
or to the States. I'm justtrying to get a handle on what you
were saying. Yes, So inthat case, they wanted the body to
be sent to Israel, and thebody was already buried, and an Act
(48:34):
of Congress early on determined that thesecemeteries are frozen in time and it is
absolutely impossible to disinter any remains ofany soldier. You could understand very well
that that was our original request.Once we discover that a soldier is Jewish,
the soldier is in the non denominationalcemetery surrounded by Christians. We would
(49:02):
love to be able to bring thissoldier to Keverysroyl to a Jewish cemetery.
We found that early on that that'sabsolutely not an option. It's not going
to happen, absolutely not. Theyshut it down and it's just a non
starter. And that's regretfully the responseto this soldier as well. The family
(49:23):
wanted him to be moved and itwasn't going to happen. They really tried.
The folder shows the back and theforth. The best that we can
do, and that's what we're devotedto doing, is to put the right
marker on. That's the best thatwe could do. And we're really trying
very hard to do this as muchas we possibly now from what I understanding
(49:45):
what you were one of your originalgoals was to see if we can have
make a section in the cemetery tobe a Jewish cemetery. Well, we
had hoped that we might be ableto do that, but that's not happening
at all because we're not. It'sno remains can be moved whatsoever. Now,
let me ask you another question.Is it possible to put a fence
(50:08):
around the Jewish grave and sort ofmaking No, you cannot even put a
fence around the grave and make itconsecrate as the Jewish cemetery. That is
correct. They are so careful aboutthe incredible majesty. I would say of
the symmetry, anyone who would liketo you and your listening audience to go
(50:30):
online to the Normandy military cemetaries whatit looks like. It is incredibly symmetrical
in any direction that you look,you see a line of crosses, it's
like one cross one exactly behind theother. The symmetry is only broken every
once in a while by a Jewishstar, So we can't change anything.
(50:52):
All we can do is to changethe marker. And as far as we're
concerned, that is a major,massive But let me ask you sixty four
thousand dollar question, Rober JJ Shacter. If you're changing from a cross to
mug and David, you're changing thesymmetry of what's on that row. Symmetry
is fine, but we can changethe grave itself. There already are Jewish
(51:15):
stars. They're about one hundred andsixty Jewish stars in Normandy out of ninety
five graves. So we could changethe symmetry, but we can't put a
fence, We can't disinenter. Wehave to operate within very strict guidelines.
Within those guidelines, you understand howimportant it is and how meaningful it is,
(51:37):
and how valuable it is. Havethis soldier acknowledged as a Jew,
not just the sassage lemus. ButI'll tell you my goal here is in
addition that more people should see thatmore Jews gave up their lives in fighting
for America. That more Jews madethe ultimate sacrifice. Well, living in
(51:59):
a very complicated in time in America, but people are questioning the loyalty of
Jews to America. I want theworld to know whoever comes to this cemetery,
either in person or virtually, toseem more Jewish stars, And that
to me is also an extremely importantconsideration. This might be beyond your purview,
(52:19):
but do we have any statistics andJewish soldiers who die, let's say,
in the Civil War that might beburied in the United States or other
areas of conflict that we've had overthe course of time. You're right when
you say it's beyond my area ofexpertise. I would say, I don't
really have expertise, but I've tried, within the contracts of World War two,
(52:40):
do the best that we can.No, obviously, it's such an
important as time consuming and you havea full plate to being a rabbi,
being an educator, a star,and you've written books, and you've had
it since two eighteen Operation Benjamin,which is dedicated to making sure that Jewish
soldiers, American Jewish sold were buriedunder the course, you get the proper
(53:01):
marketing, you get buried under themug and do it so. Thank you
for what you're doing. People wantto learn more www dot Operation Benjamin that
o RG. We'd love to hearfrom you. Rabbi Jacob J. Shacktor.
We're speaking them. He's traveling inFrance as we're speaking on a bus.
Thank you for taking time out ofyour schedule for joining us. Really,
(53:23):
your pleasures have always Thank you forthe great work that you do.
You will inform our community with sophistication, with elegance. You're articulate, and
you really help guide us in somany ways. It's a privilege to be
on this program with you. Likewise, just for that we have to have
you back again. Anyway, Thanksfor the work that you're looking forward to
(53:45):
it all the best. Be wellat this point. Tota Anytime is a
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(54:06):
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talk Line with Zev Brenner, America'spremier Jewish broadcast, the pulse feed
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to another edition of talk Line.I am Ze Brenn. Are very happy
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(02:12):
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out on YouTube. Okay, tonight, we got a very special broadcast for
its Memorial Day and we're going togo to France to speak to around by
Jacob J. Shackter. He's founderwith a group called Operation Benjamin, and
what they do is they have discoveredAmerican Jewish soldiers who are buried under the
(02:59):
cross, not the mug and duvet. And his mission is to make sure
that the United States government and theArmy change the marcation from cross to mug
and duvet and pay tribute to thesebrave American Jewish soldiers who fought and died
for our country. You don't missour special broadcast America's only Jewish radio program
(03:19):
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whatever an individual could give, theywill have the single greatest sluice in
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that quarter? What started off asa website, moving on to a mobile
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a lot more to come and wecan grow even more thanks to your helping
your support, So donate today.Be as generous as you can with your
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What are you doing? This Sunday, June fourth, Join us at the
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Israel Parade and block party with specialguests Matta Siau and Leavy Israeli performer Harrel
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NY dot org eating mostly plant foodslike fruits, vegetables, whole grains and
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(08:11):
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(08:33):
individual could give, they will havethe single greatest sluice in this world.
Come on investor. This is thebest investment I've ever made. Where else
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(08:54):
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Zada Chambi should be a tremendous hussfor you and your family. And
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(09:15):
anytime. Visit today raison dot comslash Tour anytime. You can also donate
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a day without hearing from Tour anyTime? We started listening to your station
and everybody likes it. We absolutelylove it, and we're back and in
(09:39):
fact we're on the line to Francebecause rob By Jacob j Shact, who
has been a frequent guest in ourprogram, prominent American Orthodox rabbi's scholar,
lecturistarian. He's also the founder ofOperation Benjamin. And where they want to
make sure is that American soldiers inEurope they were buried under the Cross,
get a Jewish burial, make surewhere that they have a mug and duvet
(10:01):
on their grave. In fact,we're speaking to him right now. He's
on his way to Normandy in otherareas to make sure to continue his mission,
which he founded in twenty eighteen.Robber J. J. Chacter,
thank you for joining us again.Zab It's always a pleasure to be with
you, to speak with you,and especially under these circumstances, to share
a little bit about the work thatwe're doing. So Sharon, you know,
(10:22):
most people don't think about Jews beingin the American military having a prominent
role, but in all the majorwars, Jews were in the military.
But it was especially unique during WorldWar Two and that a lot of Jews
didn't have a Jewish identity tag whenthey were buried, that there were bird
under the La crosse. So youhave discovered that so many have been not
(10:43):
been getting a Jewish burial. So, first of all, how did you
come how did you get started withhim? How did you come to learn
about these kinds of situations. Itstarted in twenty eighteen when I was with
a group of friends and we weretouring the Normandy American Military Cemetery. And
as we're walking around, it's verysolemn, it's very serious, it's very
holy, and it's very organized andvery specific, and in every direction,
(11:09):
it's a direct straight line, onecross behind another cross behind another cross in
three directions, and the sympmetry isbroken every once in a while by a
Jewish star. And as I wasworking around, I realized that there should
be more Jewish stars. When Igot back to the States, I mentioned
it my friends Alem Lamb and thathe got really excited about this and started
(11:33):
working on it very very much andtry to figure out a way how we
can move in a direction of repatriatingthese wonderful soldiers who gave their lives for
America, to have them placed undera marker that represents their ancestral faith.
(11:54):
Now, do we have any ideaabout how many Jewish soldiers served our country
during World War Two? There area couple of hundred thousand Jewish soldiers.
We don't know exactly, we havea general number, but that's about two
point eight percent of those who foughtduring World War Two. So clearly they're
(12:18):
going to be many fewer Jewish starsthan there are crosses. But we still
feel that there should be four Jewishstars. Our estimate is roughly around four
hundred and fifty roughly American Jewish soldiersburied overseas in American military cemeteries are buried
under crosses, and our job isto fix that and to be able to
(12:41):
properly place a Jewish star over them, to mark them as Jews for all
eternity. So how do you goabout doing it? Are you looking for
Jewish names on the tombs films?Are using a database to do it?
Are you having people looking at theactual graves? How is it being done?
Or starting with what we call thelow hanging fruit with Jewish names and
(13:05):
sometimes in fact they are Jews,but sometimes they're not. We can have
a Jewish man who married a nonJewish woman and has a child, and
that child as a soldier, andthat soldier is not Jewish, even though
the father's name, the father wasJewish, and as a family name.
We started first. The first onewe saw as Mendel Jacobson. We figured,
(13:28):
Mentel Jacobson is a good chance thathe's Jewish. Turns out his father
was Jewish, but his mother wasnot. So sometimes actually they don't turn
out to be Jewish. Sometimes theydo. The way we find that out
is we have a genealogist on ourstaff that does a lot of research to
determine the Jewish identity and the soldier. But then we found out very early
(13:52):
on that the army will not makeany changes unless a request comes from a
family member of the soldier. Andthen it gets much more difficult because the
soldier died when he was nineteen twenty. His parents along God, he has
three sisters. They're all married withother family names, so it's a real
(14:15):
effort. But thank God, sofar we've met with success and found family
members and through a complex process,have been able to engage them, and
we helped them write a coffer letterto the Army agency in charge of these
cemeteries. We provide them with allthe data and we've developed such a good
(14:37):
relationship with them. What originally tookeighteen months to get okay went out down
to about a month for each soldier. That's amazing. Now you find these
names in the database correct, Yeah, there are Jewish Welfare Board databases.
In Normandy. Every single grave isput up on the website. It's one
(15:03):
of the only American military cemeteries overseaswhere there's a separate site on the website
for every single grave with a pictureof the grave and a little bio of
the soldier. And so that makesit a lot easier for us. But
now we're also at a point whenwe're getting false from people now that the
word is out where we do bythe little can you help me? I
(15:28):
have a relative under red cross?Is there anything that you could do.
We've been trying to get this changedand we've been having difficulty. Maybe you
could help us. Now, howmany graves of soldiers have you been able
to identify and now actually change fromthe cross to the mug and dovin At
(15:48):
this point we've done twenty. We'vedone twenty in the Vanilla, in the
Philipines, in our Dan, inBelgium, in Luxembourg, and in Normandy,
and tomorrow we're doing two in Brittany, which is further west of Normandy.
In France, so we've been alreadyin a number of countries. We've
(16:12):
changed twenty markers. February of twentytwenty, right before COVID I traveled with
Shallow and a group of other peopleto Manila. We did five one day,
and our group has been back twiceto Manila in the last couple of
(16:32):
years. And our goal is totry to expedite this so that we can
get as many done. Our goalis to go out of business. Our
goal is to finish the job andto be able to make sure that everyone
who is Jewish should so be identifiedforever. Now you're concentrating on World War
two Korean War, do you goback, let's say, to World War
(16:56):
One or even earlier when not evendoing the Korean War, that doesn't seem
to be such a major issue there. Started with World War Two. We've
got four hundred and fifty, whichmeans we have four hundred and thirty roughly
to go. They're about twenty inthe pipeline. So we will consider ourselves
(17:18):
very successful if we can complete thework to the World War two veterans.
But our understanding is that for WorldWar One, the estimate is about one
hundred and fifty American Jewish soldiers undercrosses. But you understand very well that
that's much more complicated to go finda family rent member who will be able
(17:38):
to assert this relationship and advocate onbehalf of the change. Now, are
there any rules if there are nofamily members that make it easier for you
to do anything? Or the lawis rigid where if you don't have a
family member requesting to change, theywon't do anything. The matter is the
(18:00):
case. They've told us that evenwhen they recognize an acknowledge and the soldier
is Jewish, that we and theyhave no right to make any change because
who knows what the story was,who knows what the background was, who
knows what was going on in thelife of that soldier or his family,
even if they are identified or wecan say that they were Jewish. So
(18:22):
we absolutely required a family member,and so far we have found family members
in every single instance. Now sometimesit's three generations. The average family member
is a great niece or a greatnephew. We have found a brother,
(18:44):
we found a daughter, very rare, you can understand, but average it's
three generations down. Now, haveyou had any resistance from family members saying
I'm out into the Jewish thing.I really don't care. In one case,
family member told us that there isa lore in the family that before
the soldier went to war, hehad a fight with his father, who
(19:10):
everybody apparently agrees was a very difficultman, and said that if I go
and die in the army, Iwant to go under a cross. So
this was their family tradition, andso therefore they told us that they're not
in a position to authorize this markerchange. We have had so far one
(19:32):
case of a Christian family where thesoldier married a Christian woman, had a
child, he was killed, andwe were dealing with Christian grandchildren, and
we were able to have a veryfrank, sincere sensitive, thoughtful conversation and
at the end they did agree tothe marker change and we took care of
(19:56):
that about two months ago in theirlaw. And so so far, thank
god, we've been quite successful.The challenge is to find the family member,
have the family member respond to us, because we send them an email
and it goes into the into thegarbage slot. You know, Sam,
(20:18):
you know there? You know Hi. Hi, my name is Jake Shackter.
I found out something about your greatuncle, I think it would be
of interest to you, and that'sthat's the end of it. So we
have to figure out ways how toengage a family and once we do.
So far it's a lot of steps, but thank god, so far we've
been able to get the garner theirsupport for this purpose. Worst Member by
(20:44):
Jacob J. Shackter. He isfounder of Operation Benjamin, the prominent Orthodox
Rabbi historian, and we're speaking tohim in France. He's actually on a
bus as we speak, regarding hisactivities as identifying soldiers who died on to
lacrosse and fry and bring them backto be buried under a mug and dubbed
income. Eligibility limits for the MedicareSavings program have increased. If you make
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(22:15):
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(22:36):
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(22:56):
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in this world. Come an investor. This is the best investment I've ever
made. Where else can someone donatea quarter and have an hour learned to
that quarter. We started off asa website, moving on to a mobile
app, phone system, convention recordingJewish anytime, costed anytime, and a
lot more to come. We cangrow even more thanks to your helping your
(24:02):
support, So donate today. Beas generous as you can with your donation
to tour any Time. Zata Chamishould be a tremendous huss for you and
your family. And if people wantto know you know how they can donate
or different ways to donate or maketheir own teams. Informations available on raiston
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(24:23):
You can also donate by phone bycalling seven one eight six a two eight
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Can you go a day without hearingfrom tour anytime? If you like
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(24:44):
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And the milk, the dairy issueof Fleashek magazine will be yours. You're
(25:07):
listening to talk Line with Zev Brenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast on the year
since nineteen eighty one. And nowhere's your host, where Jacob J.
Shackter. He is a founder ofOperation Benjamin, the prominent Orthodox Rabbi historian,
and we speaking to him in France. He's actually on a bus as
(25:27):
we speak, regarding his activities asidentifying soldiers who died under the cross and
trying to bring him back to beburied under a mug and dove. In
fact, that's what they're doing rightnow, is put changing the crosse to
a mug and dove. That's whattheir mission is. How often do you
take groups of do yourself go onthese missions to do the work of actually
(25:51):
making that change. The missions areabout at this point three or for a
year. I can't go on allof them because I'm a whole time at
Eshitia University, so I have classesto teach the Center for the George Future.
Right, Well, at this pointit's more Hi's been years Agohana and
Rabbi Ashana Theological Seminary. I teachin the Bernard Revel Graduate School. I
(26:15):
teach Inton College. There are allkinds of segments of Hia University that I'm
involved in, so that takes upa lot of my time. So I'm
not able to travel as much asthe group travels. Slam Lamb goes to
all of these marker changes and thisis our largest group. We brought fifty
(26:38):
five people with us on this missionand so far it's been extraordinary. And
the police got Tomorrow will be theculmination through the marker change in these three
cases. Now, how does itwork? Because obviously you're doing a lot
of research. Even to change onegrave marker from cross to mugg and dovit
(27:02):
takes time. You got to dothe research, make sure the person's Jewish,
you gott identify the family members,you got to contact the proper authoris,
and you've got to arrange to havea cross chains to a mugg and
dovit. Well, this is timeconsuming, I would assume expensive. So
who was funding this? How isit? Are you able to do this?
So far? We are working ona shoe string budget and as a
(27:23):
result, I'm not able to domore than a couple a year. Our
goal is slowly to get the wordout and to be able to find people
who will resonate with our mission andbe able to be supportive so that we
could hire more genealogists to be ableto finish this job sooner. At this
(27:45):
rate, I'm going to need tobe two hundred and ninety eight years old
before this whole thing is wrapped up. So it's a school of fire ricosument,
but that's not going to happen.So you're absolutely right catching out something
that is extremely important to us,and our hope is that people and you're
listening audience who will hear this hopefullymight resonate with it. They have had
(28:08):
a parent, a grandparents who servedin the armed forces and will contact us
our website www dot Operation Benjamin dotorg and we will be happy to welcome
whatever donations we can receive. Andit's an important cause and people who want
to get involved with about the informationwhere to contact rated by j J sh
(28:30):
Act Operation Benjamin. Question that Ihave is in World War Two was dangerous
for an American soldier to have aJewish tag because they got quote by Nazis
didn't want they were Jewish. Iwould assume that's probably what makes it more
complicated in subsequent wars, such asthe Vietnam War or the career. Was
that the same kind of a promise, far as you can tell, I
(28:52):
know you're not working on that,but were it more easily identifiable to tell
the religion of an individual soldier ifthey get killed in action. I'm not
an expert in that, but myimpression is that in World War Two was
when this problem was that it's mostacute precisely because they were fighting the Nazis,
(29:14):
and precisely because they knew exactly whatthe Nazis were doing for Jews.
They simply did not want to beidentified as a Jew. Who should they
become a pow. It was badenough if they were an American pow,
but to layer on a Jewish identitywould have made their faith much more complex,
and so they defeasd the dog tag. The dog tag in the corners
(29:37):
as either a P for Protestant,a C for Catholic, or an AGE
for Hebrew. That goes way backto around the time of the Civil War,
and they went in with the ages, but they banged it out as
they started to get involved in theEuropean theater, fighting Germany, and so
(29:59):
their you're absolutely right, dev itdoes make it much more difficult. And
we're not alleging any untoward inappropriate behavioron the part of the army. There's
the legitimate mistakes these soldiers are.These soldiers are buried two or three or
four times, and mistakes happen,and the fact that they don't have a
(30:26):
clear age is understandable and so makesit much more difficult. Now, I'm
curious when somebody enlist in the army, did they declare their religions on the
army papers when they first game andthere's when they had the dog tags?
Was that how was that generated?Was generated themselves by the army. So
if if we generate by the army, there should be more of a record.
(30:48):
People themselves told the army what theywanted and the army responded accordingly.
There are times many times with theJewish Welfare Board has a record of the
Jewish identity of the soldiers who wereJewish, and we use that database significantly,
and also the army itself. Wehave what's called a file or a
(31:14):
folder on every single soldier and there'sa lot of correspondence back and forth,
particularly pertaining to those who were killedas the way they should be buried,
in how they should be buried.So there is corroborating evidence that is forthcoming
from other sources as well, andthat's really where we go to try to
be able to identify the Jewish natureof this soldier. So there are records
(31:40):
which would show the H was whatthe soldiers requested, but if they didn't
for whatever reason, they didn't requestthe H because they were afraid of being
captured by the Nazis. So that'swhere the problem will begin because there's no
official record of them. It's onlywhat the research that you would do with
genealogists to uncover the names. Andeither they didn't request the age or they
(32:01):
did, but then they got ridof it and they banged it out as
they got closer to war. Butif they banged it out themselves, wouldn't
the official records show the age forHebrew. Yes, So that's when we
go to the Jewish Welfare Board andwe go the Army records to the extent
(32:21):
in which they're available, and that'sreally the ultimate avenue of research for us
to thank this determination. Now,what has been the reaction to Operation Benjamin
to other Jewish groups and christof anyCongressional or Senate members have said, hey,
this is a great idea. You'reshowing the patriotism of Jews to the
(32:42):
United States. That's a wonderful question. We are now in the process of
trying to garner federal funds from varioussources to be supportive of our works.
We have encountered tremendous respect. Werespect the work that the American Battle Monuments
Commission has been doing. That's theArmy agency charge with taking care of these
(33:07):
cemeteries. We have great respect forthem. We have gotten their great respect,
and they've been very supportive of ourefforts. So we're trying to get
all different avenues of federal funding totry to help us. So long processes,
you can understand. Even if weget the funding, so it kicks
(33:27):
in in a fiscal year at twentytwenty five, but that would be helpful
for us as well, and it'sa huge priority for us to be able
to get this funding, and wehave every expectation that, please God,
it will be forthcoming. Now,what does it cost per average soldier to
do the research and eventually change fromthe cause to the mugg and of it.
(33:52):
That's a really good question. Idon't know. I don't know what
the answer is. I don't know. Are the charge for the time of
the genealogist Chulam Lamb is the onewho's really really helping us, and there
(34:12):
is a salary in his case.There's a trample U, there is research,
there are all kinds of courts thatrelate to this. So it's hard
for me to break it down persoldier. Sometimes we can expand an enormous
amount of energy on a soldier.Sometimes we can get the job done with
less. It's hard to know exactly. So we'll kind of budget you operating
(34:37):
on a yearly basis. So we'relooking at now two hundred, two hundred
and fifty thousand, but we needa lot more than that in order to
move this agenda forward. No,obviously it's a labor of love. Now,
as far as making the change fromthe court to the mugg and dove
does the is our government doing that? You have to pay for that,
(34:57):
or that's being done by by thedepartments dealing with the cemeteries. Once we
determine that the soldier is Jewish,once we get the family to be supportive
and initiate a request to the army, Once the army ocays it, then
the Army, at its own expense, will create a new marker with a
(35:21):
Jewish star with the name of thesoldier, the data soldier was killed,
the state that the soldier came from. All the information that hitherto had been
on the cross will now be inscribedonto a marker with a Jewish star,
totally at army expense. Because theseindividuals, these soldiers served our country and
(35:45):
for whatever reason, they were buriedunder the wrong religious symbols. So the
Army is correcting a mistake that wasmade seventy years ago or longer. That's
correct. They are absolutely committed togetting the historical record straight and therefore they
take responsibility for doing so. Oncewe could prove that in fact a mistake.
(36:07):
Movie Rab by Jacob J. Shactoris our guests, the American Orthodox
rab By historian. He's at ShibaUniversity, but his passion as you can
hear his Operation Benjamin, which hefound in twenty eighteen to identify American Jewish
soldiers buried under the crust and tomake sure they get a proper, respectful
burial under the mug and doved eatingmostly plant foods like fruits, vegetables,
(36:31):
whole grains, and beans. It'sgood for your health. I use beans
instead of meat and my grandmother's jerkstyle recipe. And when I'm at work,
I get a tofuo vegetable stir fry. I like to get a holy
veggie hummus rap for lunch, freshfrozen, canned or dried. To eat
a whole lot more plant foods whenyou can. For free recipes, resources
(36:53):
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I'm always in knee of a peacefulstart to the day. As the sun
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(37:13):
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world. Over twelve million hours oftotal learning. They're offering totra twenty four
hours a day worldwide. Turning Timeis having their annual fundraising campaign. Every
(38:22):
dollar that you invest in Tora Anytimereaches tens of thousands of people that impact
households across the world. Where itcomes to the tier spreading time for that
the entire world. There should beno boarders as doctors and out borders is
tighter without borders. That's started.Anytime, whatever an individual could give,
they will have the single greatest sluicein this world. Come an investor,
(38:43):
this is the best investment I've evermade. Where else can someone donate a
quarter and half an hour learned tothat quarter. We started off as a
website, moving on to a mobileapp, phone system, convention recording Jewish
anytime, tested anytime, and alot more to come and we can grow
even thanks to your helping your support, So donate today. Be as generous
(39:04):
as you can with your donation totour any time. Zada Chami should be
a tremendous puss for you and yourfamily. And if people want to know
you know how they can donate ordifferent ways to donate or make their own
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(42:04):
nineteen eighty one. And now here'syour host. Rabbi Jacob J. Sh
Actor is our guests, American Orthodoxrabbi historian. He's at University. But
his passion, as you can hear, his Operation Benjamin, which he found
in twenty eighteen to identify American Jewishsoldiers buried under the cross and to make
(42:24):
sure they get a proper, respectfulburial under the mugg and Dovid. Now,
when you go and you have thechange from the cross to the mug
and Dovid, is there a specialceremony that you have put together to make
that change that's a great question.So I'm a rabbi. I've been a
pulpit rabbi for two and a halfthree decades, and I remember enjoyed hearing
(42:50):
you at the Jewish Center Manhattan formany years. Yes, yes, that's
where we first interacted to have andI remember it very very well. And
there is a book, a manualfor rabbis. This is how you run
a funeral, This is how yourun an unfailing. This is how you
run a wedding. There's nothing inthere about this is how you change a
(43:12):
Latin cross to a jew were star. So when I first started this twenty
eighteen was our first marker change.I created from whole cloth the ceremony.
So there's a prayer for the government. There are passages from psalms from to
Hillam. There are kalmalle Rachman.There's a memorial prayer in Hebrew in English.
(43:35):
The psalms that to hill Them arealso in Hebrew in English. We
want members of the family who cometo be able to participate. Not all
of them can read Hebrew. Andthen family members speak. I speak Shalam,
Lamb speaks. The superintendent of eachcemetery. Whenever we go we invite
the superintendent to speak. Tomorrow,We're having the superintendent of the Normandy Cemetery
(44:00):
plus one of the commissioners of theAmerican Battle Monuments Commission, very high up
in the ranks of the American Armywho will be speaking as well. And
that's the ceremony, and it's verymoving, very touching. We conclude with
the Kottish batiboard. We all recitethe kottage together, and that provides closure,
(44:24):
provides we now have for all eternityrectified this mistake the soldiers and a
shama we feel somehow and the familyhas closure. The family sees this and
it means the world to them thattheir loved one now is under the proper
(44:46):
market that represents their ancestral faith.Now you mentioned to take the family is
that's part of the expenses that youencourage. Provide the transportation for the family
to go to the grave. Weonly do so under very extreme circumstances when
(45:07):
the family member really really wants tocome and just simply is unable to afford
it. But the vast majority oftime the family pays their own way.
We don't take money from them,We tell them right up front, but
don't take any money from them withoutdoing this in order to get money from
them, so they're not paying foranything. They're paying to get themselves there.
(45:31):
And all the work, all theeffort, all the research, all
the discussions with the army, allthe negotiations, all the connections. That's
on our time now is which isso nice. And you find that the
most cases the family is interested ingoing and being part of the ceremony whenever
they possibly could. They are veryinterested. This is really meaningful to them.
(45:57):
In some cases, the family tellsus that they knew that their uncle
great uncle was under recuesse actually wroteto the army requesting a marker change,
but never heard from anybody. Now, dear Secretary of the Army, I'd
like you to help me, andthe letter goes nowhere, so that when
we come to them, they jumpon this opportunity. In some cases they
(46:22):
didn't know. Both cases they know, extremely grateful, very interested in participating.
In fact, tomorrow we're having aniece of someone whose marker change we
changed in twenty eighteen, coming backit's now twenty twenty three, five years
(46:42):
later, to be with us,with her grandchildren, to be with us.
That the marker changed tomorrow, andNormandy we changed her uncle five years
ago. So here we have afamily member who's not even a family member
of someone whose marker is being changedfive years ago. Very meanful, I'm
can imagine, very meaningful and bringsclosure. Now, can you give us
(47:04):
an idea some of the soldiers thatyou've had discovered buried under the cross?
Now, I assume to come fromdifferent kinds of back. Would any of
them come from more religious background?We're even more important for them. What
have you discovered about the actual peoplethemselves? We have not found soltists will
come from a more religious this background. In one case, we have encountered
(47:29):
a soldier actually who's buried under aJewish star, but we've discovered in his
army filed a huge correspondence going backto pretty much after he was killed in
very steady bear Palestine. This isbefore nineteen forty eight. The family is
begging the army to assume his remainsunder a Jewish star and sent him to
(47:53):
Palestine. And that's a family Basiacofamily. This is a been a rock
family. This is a seriously traditionalfamily who for whatever reason didn't respond when
they were given the choice of repatriatingtheir love to the States. So that
(48:14):
was the only family to the bestof my recollector. Now, in that
particular family case, they wanted thebody to be sent to Israel for burial
or to the States. I'm justtrying to get a handle on what you
were saying. Yes, So inthat case, they wanted the body to
be sent to Israel, and thebody was already buried, and an Act
(48:34):
of Congress early on determined that thesecemeteries are frozen in time and it is
absolutely impossible to disinter any remains ofany soldier. You could understand very well
that that was our original request.Once we discover that a soldier is Jewish,
the soldier is in the non denominationalcemetery surrounded by Christians. We would
(49:02):
love to be able to bring thissoldier to Keverysroyl to a Jewish cemetery.
We found that early on that that'sabsolutely not an option. It's not going
to happen, absolutely not. Theyshut it down and it's just a non
starter. And that's regretfully the responseto this soldier as well. The family
(49:23):
wanted him to be moved and itwasn't going to happen. They really tried.
The folder shows the back and theforth. The best that we can
do, and that's what we're devotedto doing, is to put the right
marker on. That's the best thatwe could do. And we're really trying
very hard to do this as muchas we possibly now from what I understanding
(49:45):
what you were one of your originalgoals was to see if we can have
make a section in the cemetery tobe a Jewish cemetery. Well, we
had hoped that we might be ableto do that, but that's not happening
at all because we're not. It'sno remains can be moved whatsoever. Now,
let me ask you another question.Is it possible to put a fence
(50:08):
around the Jewish grave and sort ofmaking No, you cannot even put a
fence around the grave and make itconsecrate as the Jewish cemetery. That is
correct. They are so careful aboutthe incredible majesty. I would say of
the symmetry, anyone who would liketo you and your listening audience to go
(50:30):
online to the Normandy military cemetaries whatit looks like. It is incredibly symmetrical
in any direction that you look,you see a line of crosses, it's
like one cross one exactly behind theother. The symmetry is only broken every
once in a while by a Jewishstar, So we can't change anything.
(50:52):
All we can do is to changethe marker. And as far as we're
concerned, that is a major,massive But let me ask you sixty four
thousand dollar question, Rober JJ Shacter. If you're changing from a cross to
mug and David, you're changing thesymmetry of what's on that row. Symmetry
is fine, but we can changethe grave itself. There already are Jewish
(51:15):
stars. They're about one hundred andsixty Jewish stars in Normandy out of ninety
five graves. So we could changethe symmetry, but we can't put a
fence, We can't disinenter. Wehave to operate within very strict guidelines.
Within those guidelines, you understand howimportant it is and how meaningful it is,
(51:37):
and how valuable it is. Havethis soldier acknowledged as a Jew,
not just the sassage lemus. ButI'll tell you my goal here is in
addition that more people should see thatmore Jews gave up their lives in fighting
for America. That more Jews madethe ultimate sacrifice. Well, living in
(51:59):
a very complicated in time in America, but people are questioning the loyalty of
Jews to America. I want theworld to know whoever comes to this cemetery,
either in person or virtually, toseem more Jewish stars, And that
to me is also an extremely importantconsideration. This might be beyond your purview,
(52:19):
but do we have any statistics andJewish soldiers who die, let's say,
in the Civil War that might beburied in the United States or other
areas of conflict that we've had overthe course of time. You're right when
you say it's beyond my area ofexpertise. I would say, I don't
really have expertise, but I've tried, within the contracts of World War two,
(52:40):
do the best that we can.No, obviously, it's such an
important as time consuming and you havea full plate to being a rabbi,
being an educator, a star,and you've written books, and you've had
it since two eighteen Operation Benjamin,which is dedicated to making sure that Jewish
soldiers, American Jewish sold were buriedunder the course, you get the proper
(53:01):
marketing, you get buried under themug and do it so. Thank you
for what you're doing. People wantto learn more www dot Operation Benjamin that
o RG. We'd love to hearfrom you. Rabbi Jacob J. Shacktor.
We're speaking them. He's traveling inFrance as we're speaking on a bus.
Thank you for taking time out ofyour schedule for joining us. Really,
(53:23):
your pleasures have always Thank you forthe great work that you do.
You will inform our community with sophistication, with elegance. You're articulate, and
you really help guide us in somany ways. It's a privilege to be
on this program with you. Likewise, just for that we have to have
you back again. Anyway, Thanksfor the work that you're looking forward to
(53:45):
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