"BEHIND THE SHROUD OF TERROR" 03-16-2025 GUEST: REV. RICHARD WITT, EX. DIR. RURAL & MIGRANT MINISTRIES-JUSTICE FOR FARM WORKERS IN NY STATE.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer those
of the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's staff, management or ownership.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find out with Pete the Poet Gold.

Speaker 4 (00:13):
I'm Peter and I'm the poet Gold.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
And we're on the edge today with Reverend Richard Witt.
And before we get to Richard and who's talking about
the rural migrant Migrant Ministry, we're going to go directly
to the public goal for her weekly poem prayer incantation, Gold,
please let it roll.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
Okay, I'm going to do. What would Martin say?

Speaker 5 (00:33):
Build a wall, lock em up, Kill them, build a wall,
lock em up, kill them, kill them. Kill Then I
wonder what Martin would say about forty five's mantra. Today
twenty eighteen marks one hundred and fifty years of the KKK,
and it appears mass incarceration is still okay. I wonder

(00:57):
what Martin would say about chalk line is designed by
limbs attached the long arms of the law.

Speaker 4 (01:03):
Don't flinch or you could be gunpowdered, lynched.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
I wonder what Martin would say about our advanced technology
and yet we live with conflicted ideologies, claims of speaking
to the heart land while missing the heart of the land,
where the innocence have bled from native union to the
black man, the underserved, marginalized, and the poor still in
need of more.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
I wonder what Martin would say, is.

Speaker 5 (01:29):
He turning in his grave, gone too soon, unfinished work,
swept under the rug, and now the White House has
been mugged by a thug. I wonder what Martin would
say about the oligarchy today. Their foot pressed against our throats,
and we choke suffocated in the fog of their blindness,
lack of empathy and kindness. There is no beautiful way

(01:51):
to paint the present landscape. I wonder what Martin would say,
Maybe that we've made some strides. Surely that would make
us feel better inside. It's time to face the truth
and stop living in the guy. There's still work to
be done. We can't deny build a wall, lock them up,
kill them, build a wall, lock them up, kill them.

(02:13):
I wonder what Martin would say. Maybe he would tell
us to stand hard to heart and be more brave.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Just does amen work for that?

Speaker 6 (02:23):
Richard? Well, very powerful, very frustrating, very true.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
And you know sometimes. You know, we joke around that
that I'm more left wing radical than Gold. You would
have a very hard time making that case after that poem,
you know, I mean, that's a really is a declaration.
That's hard.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, and it was.

Speaker 5 (02:53):
It was it was done back in uh you know,
obviously in twenty eighteen, and that it unfortunately is still relevant.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
And your work is not Your work is not Gold's work,
although I know you work together on projects, but you'll
work for the last thirty years that I'm aware of
is the Rural and Migrant Ministry. How many years exactly
have you been there.

Speaker 6 (03:21):
I've been at Rural Megrant Ministry since nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Okay, so it's thirty four years.

Speaker 6 (03:27):
I can't count that high.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
I'm a math with mean I can do arithmetic and
tell us what the Rural Migroant Ministry is about.

Speaker 6 (03:37):
So, Rural Migrant Ministry is a statewide organization that works
with rural and farm working families across New York State
through a variety of different programs. But it's all about
nurturing leaders so that they can stand for justice.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
That's a pretty simple way to put it, and been
in motion for the thirty four years organizing a kind
of active activism, which is different because most people don't
concentrate on migrant workers as the object of oppression. You know,

(04:20):
they're an oppressed group, but we don't in the public consciousness.
We're not fully aware of that. And you a notion
that if it's about nurturing leaders, it's going to be
you're preparing for a long struggle which has already been
going on a long time.

Speaker 6 (04:39):
Farm Workers are the backbone of New York's agricultural industry,
and we're in relationship with farm workers, all of us,
whether we know it or not, because they're producing the
food that feeds and nourishes us. And we have had
a really sad relationship with farm workers going back to

(05:02):
the founding of New York State. At that point, New
York had the second largest slave market in the United States,
and those slaves ended up in the Hudson Valley making
agriculture work. And then in the nineteen thirties, when we

(05:23):
had the New Deal and wanted to give workers equal
rights and firm their value to us, we excluded farm workers.
So it wasn't really until twenty nineteen that farm workers
in New York state received equal rights under New York's

(05:43):
labor laws, and then shortly thereafter we had the pandemic,
and all sun farm workers are deemed essential workers. And
they're out there working and in our dairy farms, in
our fields, again ensuring our well being. And now here
we arrive at this point in time and we have

(06:04):
a new administration and a shroud of terror that is
pervading rural New York as our brothers and sisters, families,
children are living in absolute fear that they are going

(06:24):
to be detained, deported, and so you have all sorts
of folks that are afraid. Children, They're afraid to go school.
Parents they are afraid to send their children to school,
afraid to go to work. People that we can see
the border patrol standing outside of grocery stores because again

(06:46):
New York is a border state, so they see that,
they're afraid to go grocery shopping, they're afraid to worship.
So our organization is in the midst of that right now,
trying to stand with folks to figure out how to
live life.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Now.

Speaker 5 (07:03):
I noticed that I got an email that you have dedicated.
I'm sorry I forgot the woman's name. Appointed someone that
will sort of run that apartment department in order to
help people navigate what their rights are and support them right.

Speaker 6 (07:20):
So, we've launched the Immigrant Legal Rights Project, and the
focus of the Immigrant Legal Rights Project is to be
proactive and identifying where school districts, sheriffs departments, other institutions

(07:40):
might be denying people their rights, in other words, denying
their legal rights by saying, for example, hey, you're an
immigrant child, you can't come to school, which is what
happened a few years ago in New York. And so
using impact legislation, impact litigation, training people through our Rural

(08:04):
Academy of the People about what their rights are, training
them to train others, all of that fits in. And
now we're looking at things that have to be defended
that we thought we once had achieved. So, for example,
the federal government has announced that they're going after New
York State to remove driver's licenses for immigrants in New

(08:29):
York State, and our men was involved in that battle
a number of years ago and looks like we're now
going to be involved in it again.

Speaker 5 (08:40):
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to finding out
with Pete and the Poet Goals I'm Peter, and I'm
the poet Gold and we're here with Reverend Richard Wit,
the executive director of Rural Migrant Ministry.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, you, Richard. The other side of that, I know,
the current administration is very forceful against immigrants. They're saying,
you know what, you're calling immigrant rights education. They are.
They're saying, you're deliberately teaching people how to evade the
law and that you guys should be prosecuted.

Speaker 6 (09:12):
Well, let me be clear on on what I am saying.
I'm saying that we are working with people so that
you know, excuse me, that they know what their rights are,
to make sure that folks aren't denying them their rights.
We have instances of people who are American citizens being

(09:32):
detained because of their color. We have folks living in
fear that are documented folks and yet they're still living
in fear. So there's that specific aspect, But there's also
a deeper aspect, which is there are ways that we

(09:53):
can protect our borders or you know, create an immigration
system that also shows mercy and also honors the dignity
of people. We can achieve some of this without having
to really scare the heck out of folks or you know,

(10:14):
denying who they are. There are different ways to approach things, right,
you know.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
And I guess what I would say from your perspective
is people want to prosecute you are basically prosecuting the
Bill of Rights. In other words, they're against people having
rights and you telling them about it. And give us
a sense of the relationship between your work with the

(10:48):
rural and migrant ministry and your status as an episcopal priest.
What's the relationship between the gospel and the policy.

Speaker 6 (11:03):
I'm a very simple guy. I'm not as biblically adept
as you are, Peter. So for me, it's all rooted
in my Christian faith and the two great commandments. You
shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart,
your soul in your mind, and you shall love your neighbor.

(11:24):
And all the law and the prophets are based upon
these two great commandments. That's what directs me. So I
look around and I see the faces of women that
love their children. I see the hard work of men
that are trying to feed their families. I see children

(11:45):
that have hope about a future, and I see them
as my neighbors, and I see that it's important to
stand with them and help them live into their humanity.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
You know.

Speaker 6 (11:59):
The thing about this, and this is a trap that
we've fallen into, is it's we, not they. And when
we fall into they or othering other people, if you will,
we fail to see the impact also on ourselves. So
for example, people say, well, people are here undocumented and

(12:21):
they should be gone. Well, I don't know who's documented
or not, because RMM doesn't ask that. But let's assume
that all the dairy workers in New York State, you know,
and dairy is a major industry in New York State.
Let's say the dairy workers are all arrested and detained
and even deported. Nobody's milking the cows. If nobody's milking

(12:43):
the cows, then those dairy farms go under, and there's
no milk. If there's no milk, then Chabanni goes under.
And if Jabani goes under, we're not getting our yogurt.
But on top of all that, those towns and villages
that depend upon the economic input of those workers through

(13:04):
that whole scale that I just described are now not
getting that income. And so towns and villages are suffering,
and tax based is suffering. And our whole agricultural economy
is suffering.

Speaker 5 (13:21):
Absolutely, it's we not day right, absolutely, And I think
there's a there's amount of long term vision. I don't
think the long term vision was really put into place.
It's it's very reactive, you know. And something that you
pointed out about, you know, your beliefs and the two
things you really believe in. There's a spirituality component, you know,

(13:45):
within that, and there's a different type of spiritual power
within that versus the power that's being sought now, which
is you know, done by fear, done by oppression, done
by pain, inflicting pain, and being very conscious of you know,
sort of celebrating in the fact of watch this moment.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
There's a meanness.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, watch this, you know, and so you know, and
and that's it's it's sad to a certain extent.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
And you know, Richard, you use the you summed up
the uh Judeo Christian tradition and you know, love your God,
love each other, and uh, my senses, there's a more
secular way to approach that. It was related to them
and my reactions to the new administration, which you know,

(14:39):
I'm clearly I'm not full. I'm a very left wing democrat.
But my reactions to it is I want to be
out in public more, and I want to be out
in public liking people. I'm not I don't you know.
Loving people is another realm. But my sense is that
if we like each other, with harder to push around.

(15:01):
So my reaction to the new administration, I'm going to
like a lot more people. And I think use sort
of a word that is like love, but it doesn't
have the baggage.

Speaker 6 (15:15):
Right, affirm right. I was with a wonderful person this
morning and we were talking about changing the old adage
practice random acts of kindness to practice daily acts of kindness, right,
daily acts of affirmation. Because when we do that, we
break the narrative, we break the pathway. You know, it

(15:37):
throws people for a loop when we you know, insert
because folks are expecting hate back, and hate takes a
lot of energy. But when you are affirming and seeing
that other person, it causes, if only for a moment,
a different direction. So we're working hard at RMM to

(15:57):
present a different narrative of affirmation. We're doing it through action,
you know, we're involved in a number of different actions.
We're doing it through truth telling because that's one of
the things that's slowly slipping out the windows is naming
things that are true. Right, And we're also doing it

(16:19):
through the arts because the arts get back at what
you were saying is when we're engaged in the arts,
then we feel that in our heart and we feel
that in our spirit, and it's easier to connect. So
our mem is very committed also to the arts, not
just our legal actions and our legislative actions, but also

(16:42):
utilizing the arts.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
And the arts. There's a training ground for new leaders right.

Speaker 6 (16:49):
Our youths are very committed to using the arts. Some
of them use street theater, some use visual arts, some
use spoken word and gold.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
You've been involved with R and M and the leadership
building through the arts, right.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
Yes, yes, I have. I don't even know how many years.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Now, not enough, but want more I know.

Speaker 5 (17:11):
I know for myself it's it's always been a transformative
experience in working with with the youth and watching them
grow and mostly uh listening to where they are in
space in their life and watching listening to their ability
to articulate that you know, and really say, what's in

(17:34):
their heart, what's going on, and how the different situations
impact them. In their lives on a daily basis, and
so that's been profound for me. And and what's also
unique is though not only that, but then turning it
into an action step.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
You know, what's the next step? How do you do this?

Speaker 5 (17:51):
And I think that's where R and M is really
instrumental in that in that way. But before, we'll take
a minute right now to say, if you're just tuning
in you're listening to Finding Out with Pete and the
poet Go. I'm Peter Leonards and I'm the poet Gold
and we're here today with Reverend rich and Whip for
Rural Migrant Ministries.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
And Richard, I'd like to just go to two of
your comments. One is, so who's going to milk the cows?
I mean, it's very expensive to get rid of immigrants,
you know, because they're doing very vital work.

Speaker 6 (18:19):
The other.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Part is, uh, you know, seeing people as you know,
parents or kids, but being able to break through and
see them. And it's very hard when you have what
you're referred to as a shroud of terror from their point,
but the shroud of terror is a poetic and profound

(18:43):
way of telling us what's going on in the immigrant community.
And if we can have people just be aware that
the immigrants, they're not only humans, they're nervous because they're
awake and we're after them.

Speaker 4 (19:02):
I used a naughty words.

Speaker 6 (19:14):
Yeah, I think it's very important for us to be
aware because right now it's easy for many of us
to fall into a trap that everything's fine because we're
not feeling the direct impact. But when you're in relationship
with those who are different, you not only feel their pain,

(19:34):
but you, if you allow yourself, you also benefit from
their wisdom and their experience, and their creativity and what
they bring to our community. Look at the great joy
in Poughkeepsie over all these years with a gala, getza,
a major festival, or what you've been involved in poet

(19:55):
in Newburgh. You know, two of our Hudson Valley towns.
It brings a full to all of our lives.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Gets is dancing from Hong Kong, Mexico they have in August.
I think that's the river right right, very colorful, beautiful dancing.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
The music's good, the food is good.

Speaker 6 (20:12):
I mean, it's just just as we've cherished through the years,
our Italian brothers and sisters, and our Irish brothers and sisters,
and we've benefited so much from that. Why would we
cut ourselves off from this wonderful new energy.

Speaker 5 (20:29):
Well, there's a you know, to just talk about the
elephant room, there's a racist component, you know to it.
I mean, it's it's no secret that a lot of
these communities that are being targeted are communities of brown
and black communities and those being pushed out. And I
don't know whether or not if there's some some vision
of well, once we get everybody out, then you know,

(20:52):
these farm jobs, you know, so to speak for lack
of better term, will go to the poor or white
in America. But if you don't, at the same time want.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
To deal with unions, you.

Speaker 5 (21:09):
Know, fear wage, you're still talking about the same issues you.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Have three point on unemployment. Basically everyone who wants a
job has a job already, and you know, there's a
nobody going to your points about the racism. I see
very little stuff on the news worrying about the Irish
undocumented Irish immigrants in the Northern Bronx, and there are
plenty of them, but we don't really care that much

(21:36):
about them. It's those people that Eagle Pass in Texas
that will really get a goat, And so you're saying
you have points of there's an economic you know, it's
expensive to get rid of immigrants, but it's also humanly expensive.
So it's financially and humanly expensive to dislike people.

Speaker 6 (22:02):
Yeah, it's it's very it's very sad what we're doing
to ourselves out of fear. And fear is such a
powerful force and we're I'm afraid we're letting it take
control of our communities.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
And you know, Richard, I use word you're in public
old to somebody who articulates that over and over, and
you know, I'm always open to listen to it. But
to me, it's worse than that. Fear is one thing,
fun as another. Some of us are enjoying the fact
that we're going to get after pull brown people and

(22:45):
throw them out, and the fact that we're doing it
as bad. The fact that so many of our fellow
Americans are enjoying it. Really, it not only irks me,
it makes me feel like personally bad that I'm an
American who has a lot of people on our team.

(23:06):
You know, I'm a white American who is a little
bit a shame is probably just strong word, but it's
a shame that some of the people I like are
really enjoying throwing people out enjoying.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
I think to Richard's point is, you know, fear gets
to a place where you can recognize it. I just
had this conversation last night. You can recognize it and say, Okay,
are you willing to be vulnerable enough to recognize it
and turn it around, you know, use it as a
tool to learn something new, or are you going to
allow it to consume you? And once it consumes you,

(23:41):
really consumes you, then you have no choice but to
embrace it differently and use it from a toxic perspective.
And we're at that place where you talk about people
looking at it as if it's fun. They don't acknowledge
the fear and denial of it, that that's the impetus
of why they're reacting that way, and they're using it

(24:01):
to hurt others. They find it entertaining because they're too
afraid to acknowledge that they're afraid.

Speaker 6 (24:10):
I've often wondered, I mean, I'd love to talk to
some of those folks that you see in the pictures
from the Civil rights era. They're outside of the school
in Little Rock Arkansas, for example, that were their faces
twisted in anger, shouting at the students, going in interviewing

(24:31):
them years later to say, how do you feel about
that now? Do you still feel the same way? Are
you embarrassed? Are you know? Do you have a deeper
knowledge of this, because again, it takes so much energy
to be angry and violent.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah, it's closely and I want to be clear. A
lot of people, I like a lot of my relatives
are enjoying the tough thing. Let's throw them out, you know.
And I gotta say, I'm ashamed of it. I'm ashamed
of life. For my family, I'm ashamed, But even beyond
my family, as a nation, I'm ashamed of it.

Speaker 5 (25:09):
Right well, Richie, thank you so much for being here
at the time is like going by so quickly.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
How can people assist you?

Speaker 6 (25:16):
Website Ruralmigrant Ministry dot org is our website, a new
website actually, and it has many avenues that people can volunteer,
that people can donate, that people can raise their own
consciousness and awareness.

Speaker 5 (25:31):
Thank you to our listeners once again for listening to
finding out with Pete and the poet gold.

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It's always great to have you.

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