Episode 136 - OWL with Ash Parrish, Competitive Gaming's Future, And A Brief Chat About Graphics

This week, Jason speaks with The Verge's Ash Parrish about the troubles at The Overwatch League, including recent layoffs and a pending vote to continue the league. He then talks about the future in esports in general, and ends with a brief commentary on the importance of graphics in video games.

Episode Transcript

(00:26):
Hello, and welcome to episode numberone thirty six of the Chief Stakes and
Controllers podcast presented by Fox PHL TheGambler one or two point five FM fourteen
eighty AM, iHeartRadio or wherever youget your podcasts is where you're listening to
this voice right now. My nameis Jason Finelli, and I am the
Esports and Gaming Insider four Fox PHLThe Gambler coming at you today with a

(00:47):
bit of a somber episode. It'snot gonna be the happiest one. I
don't say that as in like it'sgonna be dooming gloom and we're all gonna
be sad. It's just about atopic that kind of makes me sad in
general. Right, we're going totalk about We're leading into basically the episode
with the news that Activision laid offa lot of folks in their esports division,

(01:12):
specifically when it comes to the OverwatchLeague, and I've brought in a
prominent reporter in that scene from theformerly Kotaku and now writes for The Verge,
that's Ash Parish to talk about thecurrent state of the Overwatch League and
whether or not we think it's goingto continue. Because part of the news

(01:33):
was also at the end of theyear, the teams will get to vote
to stay or take like a sixmillion dollar payout and off they go.
So we talk about that, weget into how the league got into this
position. Of course, we talkabout the fusion because their departure made me
sad, and we go from theirfantastic interview. She is a great writer
and a great great person, greatgreat a great writer, a great person,

(01:57):
and a great person to talk toin on this podcast, So I
hope you will enjoy that, andthen we will get into where esports go
from here. In general, that'lljust be me talking about what I think
esports should go, particularly you know, Overwatch and Call of Duty and fighting
games and all that stuff. Sowe'll talk about that, and then finally
we're going to end up with aninteresting debate that came up earlier this week

(02:20):
regarding certain critiques. This one centeredaround Armored Core six, So if you
sold the video, you know whatI'm talking about. But we'll get into
that later. First, our gueststoday on che Stakes Controllers, episode number
one hundred and thirty six is someoneI had to seek out when I looked
into this Overwatch League story. Fortwo reasons. One she wrote it,

(02:43):
and two she has been following theOverwatch league basically for as long as I
have known her as a writer andfollowing her work. So if I if
I could not get Blizzard themselves,and I did not think that was going
to happen, I had to goto another authority. So I have wrote
on former freelancer, Extraordinari, formerKotaku, now writing about video games for

(03:06):
the Verge. I have Ash ParishAsh. How are you today? I'm
great. I'm always glad to getthe opportunity to talk about the Overwatch leaks.
So you were right on time.I'm really excited. Yes, even
in you know, for better orfor worse? Let's say yeah, because
right last week and the reason Ireached out to you a big layoff at

(03:29):
Active Vision Blizzard in their esports department, specifically a lot of folks finding out
via the article that you wrote,which is never ideal. How does it
Have you ever written an article likethat before, where it's bad news that
people are finding out by your writing? How's that? That's got to feel
kind of weird? Right? Itdoes feel weird, and it does feel
bad. I don't think anything likethat has ever happened to me, I

(03:52):
think, and if it has,it has probably only happened within the verge
or within the realm of Overwatch,because it's the powers that be at Activision
Blizzard are not the best at communicatingto rank and file employees when things happen.
So a lot of times, yeah, it's it's news that breaks the
story. But that's not necessarily uncommonto Overwatch. It happens all the time

(04:12):
across all different kinds of industries,so it's not uncommon, but it's definitely
not the greatest feeling. Yeah.I can't imagine you're reading those tweets afterward
and you're like, well, Icould have probably assumed they weren't going to
tell you, But this is alot worse than even I thought. Yeah,
so what do you just off thetop, like just surface level?
What do you equate this too?Is there? Is the merger have something

(04:34):
to do with it? Just thefact that Overwatch interest has waned even since
the release of Overwatch Too. Itwas there for a while, but then
I really I don't hear about thisgame nearly as much as I used to,
even in the pandemic, let alonepre pandemic. So what if you,
in your estimation, is leading tothe potential dwindling of this league.

(05:00):
I think it has a lot todo with the fact that everything in esports
in general is undergoing this kind ofcooling effect where investors are starting to step
away. So what happened back inlike twenty eighteen and even before, is
that, just like Crypto, abunch of people with a bunch of money
decided, Okay, we're gonna makeesports the next thing. So we're gonna

(05:23):
dump tons and tons and tons andtons of dollars into this across the board.
You see this happening with CSCO,you see it happening with Riot.
It's everywhere. It's not just theBlizzard thing, it's everywhere. Everybody has
all this money to burn and theythink esports is the next big bet.
So what happened was, you know, we have this overinvestment and with things

(05:44):
like you know, investment, ifyou're not getting your money more, you
know, if you're not getting areturn on your investment as fast as you
want to or as fast as themoney you know, the bookkeepers want you
to make money, people get scaredand they pull out. So what happened
was, you know, you've gotbillionaires like Robert Kraft who own you know,
the Boston Uprising, and then youknow even Comcast Specter who owns the

(06:11):
Philadelphia Fusion now the sole Infernal theyinvested all of this money, the pandemic
happened, which completely canceled the ideaof what was supposed to make the Overwatch
League successful, which were these geolocatedteams where people would go every week to
watch these live events and pay fortickets and merchandise and all that stuff.
That completely couldn't happen because of thepandemic. So that was an even worse

(06:32):
hit to the financials, and itled to this situation where Activision Blizzard had
to either postpone or outright cancel franchisingfees because remember these billionaires paid you know,
twenty to thirty five million dollars fora franchise slop. So with these
investments hurting, these teams are like, okay, no, we can't do

(06:53):
this anymore, we can't justify thisexpense. Everybody's pulling their money out,
and Overwatch League was just one ofthose places where everybody's like, no,
we need to get out of here, and we need to get out of
here with as much money as wecan, which has led to what we're
seeing right now. So part ofin the report by Ash if you have
not seen it, it was postedwhat last Thursday, I want to say,
the nineteenth, the earnings report forBlizzard came out, and a brief

(07:18):
part of that I'm going to readright now. During the second quarter,
we amended certain terms for our collaborativeagreements with team entities participating in the Overwatch
League. According to the terms,following the conclusion of this season, the
teams will vote on an updated operatingarrangement. If the teams do not vote
to continue under an updated operating rateagreement, a termination fee of six million
will be payable each participating team entity, total fee of approximately one hundred and

(07:41):
fourteen million. I know that theleague has already lost a team in the
Chengdu Hunters. They did not comeback in this season, and then my
my fusion. Technically they didn't losethem, but we lost them. Sorry,
I'm not better. Do you thinkleague survives this vote because part of

(08:01):
me wants a big part of mewants to say no. So the league
as we know it right now probablywill not survive this vote. I have
a very good feeling that the teamowners will vote to take the money and
run, and this franchising model thatwe've been working with for the last six
years will cease to exist. Thatdoes not mean that competitive Overwatch in general

(08:24):
will also end. I don't knowif it's just my optimism or a reflection
of my enduring love and hope fora competitive Overwatch, but I believe that
after these franchising situation goes away,that we will still have competitive Overwatch in
some way, shape or form.I spoke to Sean Miller right after this

(08:45):
news broke. He couldn't tell meexactly what that shape will look like.
But I do believe that they willkeep it around, and they will revamp
it into something else. I wantto believe that that competitive Overwatch in a
way that we enjoy it will stillcontinue. It's happened, It's not happened
before. Like I've never seen ina situation where something like this completely falls

(09:05):
apart and it is rebranded and youknow, rises from the ashes. But
Overwatch. Competitive Overwatch has existed asa live entertainment thing before, with the
Apex tournament that existed before before theOverwatch League got started. So I want
to believe that we can get backto something like that after this is done.
So I have hope that it willcontinue, just not like this.

(09:28):
I appreciate that hope. I'm withyou on that. But I wonder if
if that, if whatever is next, will use the sort of geolocation format,
or if it will use the formatoff like a Riot with their League
of Legends, where it's not wherethey're located, it's the names of the
teams themselves or the organizations. Soyou're not rooting for, as you said,

(09:52):
the Boston Uprising, you're rooting forwhatever Craft's team name is at off
the top of my head, Idon't remember. Actually I don't know who
owns them either, but yeah,I don't know. I have to imagine.
So when speaking with Sean Millner,who's the commission for the Overwatch League,
he told me that, you know, as they work through whatever the

(10:13):
next, you know, Overwatch Leaguetwenty twenty four and beyond, looks like
they're looking at other leagues as anexample for you know, how they'll shape
their new league, and that means, you know, going back to this
traditional format where it was esports organizationsthat were the names on the side of
the building instead of you know,geolocated teams like the Atlanta Rains and stuff
like that. We don't really seethis kind of geolocation anywhere else at esports.

(10:37):
It was an anomaly, and Ihave to imagine that after it's over
that they will that will go back. The status quo will reassert itself,
so we'll see things like instead ofthe Ford Mayhem, we'll see misfits instead
of Vancouver Titans. I think seeluminosity. I don't remember who ye that,
Well, we'll go back to that. Yeah, I could see that
too, But I wonder if theydon't try again just take some cues from

(11:01):
the other league under their umbrella,the Call of Duty League. There has
been some shake ups there too.It's it's by no means a perfect representation
of what if geolocated esports league couldbe. But they seem to be chugging
along fairly well. They just theseason just ended. I believe there's going
into championships very soon. Um,things seem to be okay there. What

(11:22):
makes Coal of Duty League different?Is it just the name Call of Duty
you think that's keeping it going?Or is there more to it. It's
the fact that Call of Duty isfar more popular and has a more general
broader reach than Overwatch too. Um, I don't that's not my scene.
I don't, you know, Idon't follow. Yeah, I don't follow

(11:46):
what they're doing over there too closely, but I know that they are doing
a little bit better at securing outsidepartnerships than the Overwatch League has. They
just got like a five or sixmillion dollar investment from either Mountain Dew or
Monster or maybe it was red Wolf. It was like five or six million
dollars. It was a big drinkcompany. So there, and they're doing
way better. They also have thedistinction of being able to costream not only

(12:11):
on YouTube, but on Twitch.And what we've seen is Twitch has a
far better way to outreach and isa far better viewing experience for these kinds
of things. So the Overwatched Leaguesfirst started on Twitch, and then a
couple of years after it started,it signed an exclusivity deal with YouTube,
and like viewership numbers is kind oftanked after that because YouTube is just not

(12:33):
the place for those kinds of events. Twitch is just better. I don't
know why, but I just knowthat Twitch is a better viewing experience and
better at getting people to come inand watch. So that might explain why
Call of Duty is seeing better successin terms of its esports league and why
it might still keep that geolocational citybased model. But who knows, they

(12:56):
might get rid of that too,and we might go back to just having
the CDL with you know, generalesports or its names. Who knows,
But yeah, I think that's that'swhat's going on. Just Call of Duty
is just the more popular game.Yeah, they had that too, was
at the CWL, the Call ofDuty World League. I think it was
called something like that. Yeah,I mean I could see that happening as
well. And I wonder too withthe Twitch platform versus YouTube, I think

(13:18):
it's just the knowledge base of thecore usership, like just gamers, no
gaming more in general. It's aweird thing to say, but that's what
it is. So Twitches their platform, so it makes sense that if they're
going to watch esports, they thinkTwitch before they think YouTube. And speaking
as someone whose father tries to watchesports with him on a regular basis,

(13:39):
and man, he tries, hereally does, but he just can't follow
it. It's too fast. SoI wonder if the general population who like
turns on Overwatch League when it wason ABC pretty pandemic, is like,
what the heck is this and thenswitches because it's it's just there's just too
much happening at once. But anyhow, back to that was a bit of
as a bit of a bit ofa rant there, Sorry about that.

(14:03):
I also want to ask too aboutthe impact of Overwatch two's creation and Rocky
launch. I know, I thoughtwhen it was happening that using the Overwatch
League to showcase the game on aweekly basis was a brilliant idea. You
have the league use it to showwhat the new game is going to look

(14:24):
like. But unfortunately, I justdon't think the Overwatch faithful really took to
that new format. Would you saythat's accurate? So you hit upon like
what is actually at the core ofevery esport the idea, It's like an
unspoken thing, the idea of everyesport league that gets broadcast like this is

(14:46):
at its core the evangelical arm forthe game itself. You watch Worlds,
you watch you know, the Valoriantgame Changers or whatever they've got going on
over there, and it makes youwant to play the game. That's what
these companies are counting on. That'show they bring in you know, new
players or you know, get theplayer, the casual players even more invested

(15:09):
in their product. That's the pointof these things. Sure, that's what
Overwatched two was supposed to do.But Overwatched two, because of all of
the things that happened during its developmentand all of the things that are coming
out now, it just doesn't justify, you know, what happened. Like,
Overwatch two is not a sequel.It just isn't a sequel. It's

(15:31):
not a new game. It's justan updated version of an old game.
But the updates aren't doing enough tobring in or bring back that core audience
that has been burned by you know, Gears of like little to no updates
and little to no communication and littleto know like substantial you know, modifications
to gameplay. The Overwatch took auit took a chance on changing its format,

(15:56):
going down from six players to five, and a lot of the sentiment
that I'm hearing from long time fansis that it just doesn't work. It
doesn't feel as good, it doesn'tplay as good, and it's just not
as interesting and you know, theytried and hopefully maybe with things that are
on the horizon, with new gamemodes and new heroes, that he can

(16:17):
try to bring those people back,but it just doesn't seem like that's working
for it. Like all of thebig bets that they're making with Overwatched two
so far haven't really panned out,and it's just unfortunate to see. Now
you mentioned earlier Riot and Leading Legends. They have been one of the strongest
esports in the world for you know, going on a dozen years, but

(16:41):
they also have never sequalized. SoI wonder there's an interesting an interesting discussion
to be had about even Coal ofDuty, which World War One comes out
every year, and Overwatch trying topush something as a sequel. Even if
they had just called it like maybetwo point zero or something where it wasn't

(17:02):
supposed to be a direct sequel tothe first game, I feel like there
would have been a lot more successto it. But calling it too comes
with some expectations, and as yousaid, they weren't met. Would you
agree with it, I would agreedefinitely. It's just been we were excited
for something new, right, Wewere looking forward to the hero mode that

(17:22):
was unfortunately canceled. We were lookingforward to all these things that just doesn't
pan out, And when you aremet with disappointment after disappointment after disappointment,
there becomes a point where you know, people that you've already lost, that
you know that were already on thefringes of being lost, just become straight
up and down lost. And thefact that now with the new seasons,
that you're going to have to continuallypay for a campaign content, it's just

(17:45):
like that's another kind of nail inthe coffin that's just turning a whole bunch
of people off while not doing enoughto bring in new people. Do you
think there's maybe an outside shot that, should this merger finally be completed and
we can all stop talking about likeyoursoft buying activision Blizzard as we have been
for eighteen nineteen months, that theMicrosoft press might step in and take a

(18:10):
look at what's happening here and seeif they can't even if they just take
a different approach to what an Overwatchleague could look like, or Overwatches development
in general, maybe more support teamsor a different game modes taken from Halo.
It's a weird thing to say,but hey, who knows there is
there a sense of slight optimism fromthe Overwatch community to hey, maybe Microsoft

(18:33):
could fix our game a little bitand we could start enjoying it more.
If there is, I haven't seenit, I at least not as far
as Overwatch or even Overwatch League ingeneral. So we do know that Microsoft
runs the Halo Esports, but Idon't hear too much about it. I
don't know what how invested Microsoft isin that thing, in their esport or
if it's just something that they keepyou going along investing in just because it's

(18:57):
like a nice little thing, alittle offshoot that they don't really have to
pay too much attention to that sustainsitself, right, So I don't know
what their appetite is for keeping,you know, the Overwatch league running,
because running an esports league is ahuge, huge expense, and the thing
is is that it can be profitable, but it's probably not going to be

(19:18):
as profitable as people want it tobe, so such that you know,
they might not be able to justifythe continued investment in it. So I
don't know, Um, it's reallyup in the air about that. I
know that in general, activision.Blizzard employees are looking forward to the merger
because they, you know, haven'thistorically liked the ways that's to say it

(19:40):
lightly, the ways that the Blizzardhas been their their executive leadership team has
been leading the company has of latefor reasons that you can go to the
Verge dot com and read up allabout please but yeah, and in fact
I encourage it. It's just tooearly to tell, honestly, Um,
I wish one of the things thatI would like to work on as we

(20:00):
get closer and closer to this deadlineis, you know, get in touch
with people at Microsoft to see whattheir appetite is for things like that.
So who knows, maybe we'll seea revived Overwatch with Microsoft's takeover, or
maybe it'll just continue to wither onthe vine the way heroes of the Storm
did. Oh man, that isnot the comparison you want to hear.

(20:22):
Yeah, I know, but it'sabout the best one we've got right now.
Yes it is. I remember intwenty twenty February, right when I
was brought onto this radio station todo this show, my program director and
I went to the live Fusion matchesat the met here on Broad Street in
Philly, and that crowd was absolutelyout of this world. And to be
where we are now three and ahalf years after that is shocking. It's

(20:49):
really sad because the Overwatch lead community, as you say, is incredible.
It is so fun and it's soenergizing to watch people other people get so
hyped for for you know, Overwatch, for watching them. Like one memory
that I'll never forget, and oneis that a lot of people who have

(21:10):
watched the Overwatch League for as longas they have, they keep bringing up
is um Overwatched World Cup, whichis kind of like Overwatch League, but
it's like country base instead of citybase. You've got the overwatched World Cup.
You've got one of the one ofthe legs of the tournament was in
France, and you've got all ofthese French fans in this big, you
know, auditorium, singing the Frenchnational anthem while their team competes, and

(21:32):
it is just this beautiful moment oflike sports that like transcends like you know,
all human emotion, and it's justso fun and so hardening to watch.
And I hope that there's something inthe future for Overwatch that we can
continue to have those kinds of momentsbecause the community always will show up.
They always have, it's just notin the numbers or not in big enough

(21:52):
numbers that you know, the beingcounters want people to show up in It's
it's there, but it's always justnot quite enough. And you know,
sometimes you can be happy with whatyou have and sometimes you just can't.
So you know, who knows.But I really hope that we can still
have more of those moments in thefuture. I agree, it's all about
the damn beans. If one lastquestion for you before I get you out

(22:15):
of here, I my favorite competitivegaming lane or circuit is the Fighting Game
Circuit. I'm a huge fan ofthe FGC, and they have their own
leagues like they run Capcom Cup ortech and World Tour or dragon ball Z
World Tour whether they're calling themselves,but they use out of or third parties
to host those tournaments in events thatthey were running. Anyway, your Combo

(22:38):
breakers or evos, your EVO Japan's, your CEOs and stuff like that.
Do you see or do you thinkjust in your experience, it is more
efficient for a company who may wantto run a league to maybe think about
a third party organization running it forthem as opposed to running it in house.

(23:00):
As you said earlier in this conversation, running an esports league is a
huge commitment, both financial and time. So would a potential future Overwatch league
maybe benefit more in the hands ofa third party that specializes in competitive gaming
like that, or do you thinkkeeping it in house they could eventually make

(23:22):
it work if they dedicate the resourceto it. I'm actually really glad you
brought up the fighting game community becausethey're a perfect example of what happens when
profit is not necessarily prioritized and whatis more prioritized is the user experience.
The fighting game community has been aroundfor as long as it's been around and
has a robust away that has hasbeen around because that is all grassroots,

(23:45):
bottom to top instead of top tobottom kind of development that has always been
centered on the fans made buy fansfor other fans, and that's why they've
been as successful as they've been forso long. Yes, tournaments have come
and go, but like it is, the fighting game community is a standout
specifically because like it seems like thepublishers for those games kind of take this

(24:10):
like kind of hands off approach orthis permissive approach where there we're going to
allow you to have the licenses forour games to put on these tournaments and
we're just gonna let you do whatyou do. And they've done that too
great effect, and I think alot of leagues Overwatched in particular, can
take very good lessons from that kindof development, that kind of grassroots,
community based development. That being said, third party tournaments is not new to

(24:37):
Overwatch. That's what the Apex tournamentwas. It was a third party tournament
put on by ogn, which wasa South Korean esports, you know,
entertainment company. So, and whathappened with the Overwatched League, what initially
upset a lot of fans at thebeginning of the Overwatch League was that Blizzard
said, Okay, no more thirdparty stuff, because we want to be
the only place where you can goto get this kinds of things. And

(24:57):
it kind of killed that grassroots,community based enthusiasm for Overwatch because now you
had to go to the big Poppato get anything that you wanted. And
now that we're seeing you know whatin this particular case, like the consequences
of that, maybe now the lessonis like Okay, this didn't work.

(25:18):
We've had a successful model in thepast with third party tournaments. Maybe we
can do that again. So thefighting game community is an excellent example of
that as well as Overwatch. Hisown past, I've always said on this
radio the history of this show thatthe fighting game circuit, fighting game community
is the future of esports. Asfar as the absolutely the user, as
you've pointed out, well, I'msorry. My original thought was because of

(25:41):
the user experience for the casual fan, there's just less information they have to
take in if you look at aOverwatch screen versus a fighting game screen.
But what you just brought up,I think it makes even more sense in
that that bottom to top grassroots structurecould definitely benefit any game, any competitive
game out there that wants to tryand make a splash. That's the way

(26:03):
to do it. So I'm gladthat you brought that up as well.
Ash. This has been a fantasticconversation, as expected from someone who has
who has been writing so well aboutthis league and all video games in general.
I don't want to put you ina box. Ash Parish is doing
great work. You did great work, Kataku doing great work now at the
Verge, and I want you togo check it out right now, check

(26:26):
her out on Twitter. Your handleis just your name, right, it's
ad Astra so A d A sH t R. That's where I'm at
on Twitter. Blue Sky also threads. Oh yeah, well tomorrow it'll be
called ham Sandwich because he's hungry.So but Ash, I appreciate your time.
I appreciate it coming on here andgiving us this great information. I
look forward to all of your coverageon Overwatch, be it the league as

(26:48):
it is or whatever rises from theAshes Phoenix league actually sounds kind of cool.
I will I hopefully speak to youagain very soon, and I look
forward to everything you have to writethe future. Thank you so much for
coming on. Thank you so muchfor having me. It's always always fun
to talk about Overwatch with fans.It's always fun. I always loved doing
it. So please please have meback so I can do it more because

(27:11):
I don't get to do it veryoften. All Right, you heard it.
She will be back, I promise, and we will be back right
after this. All right, Welcomeback to Chief Stays in Controllers episode number
one hundred and thirty six. Majorthank you to Ash Parish of the Verge
to come on here and talk aboutOverwatch League and whether or not we think
it's going to have a future asis. Unfortunately, things are not looking

(27:34):
good, especially with that vote comingup. I do as she said,
I do expect the teams to takethe money and run and that will be
the end of the Overwatch League aswe know it, which is sad,
honestly. And that's where it's agood segue into what I want to talk
about here. Think back to liketwenty twenty, right right before the pandemic

(27:56):
hit and all that, And wementioned this in the interview too, like
when the Fusion was here at themet and they had just announced the brand
new arena that they were going tobuild just for the Fusion. It was
the probably the highest point of theOverwatch League here in the city for sure,
but probably in general. Hype wasat a fever pitch that we're going
to start touring the country and eventhe world. It was set to be

(28:21):
a humongous thing. And then thepandemic hit, which heard it, and
then the crypto thing, which hurtit again. And now we find ourselves
in a situation where the Overwatch League, this time next year. Hey,
this time six months from now maycease to be as it is in its
current function, and we'll go tosomething like the Apex series as she mentioned,

(28:45):
or Call of Duty World League,where instead of the cities being represented,
it's the organizations themselves, which I'mfine with, but I do think
that there is a possibility that someleague could start a city based venture and
build something as Overwatch was in theprocess of doing before all this madness started.

(29:11):
It really does paint a blique pictureof esports and competitive gaming in general,
though, does it. I havesaid numerous times on this show that
I think the word esports is tainted, even going so far as to say
I would never utter it on thisshow again. But you know that's true.
It's it is very easy to say, I will. I will admit

(29:32):
that I still do not want tolike I would rather call it competitive gaming
or or you know, something ofnot professional gaming, because you know,
that's like I would say, aninfluencer who streams video games for a living
is a professional is in professional gamingas well, It's just a different type
of it. But as far ascompetitive gaming is concerned, and esports or

(29:56):
for those who aren't in the knowe gaming hood. Dear, I feel
like we're an interesting impass right now, a time of transition, a time
of a flux. You have Callof Duty, which seems to be going
fine, though we don't know howthat will be affected once Microsoft comes in

(30:18):
after the merger. You've overwatched,which very very may well vote to like,
as we've said numerous times, notto exist anymore. You have Halo,
which was supposed to be big,but then Halo Infinite suffered, so
the Halo League suffered. It's it'sjust it's a strange time. The only

(30:38):
two tenants of competitive gaming that seemedto really but three, I guess I
should say three. I don't wantto discount. One of them is League
of Legends, DODA and the Internationaland fighting games, which I always champion
fighting games, I know, butthey and maybe I just have recency bias
because EVO is next week, butthey seem to be, you know,

(31:02):
as strong as ever with PlayStation comingin and doing their thing. I wonder,
though, what is the next bigcompetitive game right? What could be
the next big thing in competitive games? I think Pokemon has an interesting situation
where their World Championships in two weekstime. They have multiple games. They

(31:26):
have Scarlet and Violet, they havethe Creating trading card game, they have
Pokemon Go, they have Pokemon Unite. They had Pocket Tournament when that was
current. Now they've kind of easedoff that for Unite. I imagine that
will come back if they ever decideto revisit that franchise. Pokemon's kind of
taking a spread approach where we putout as many games as we can and
as many different formats as we can, and see how many people we can

(31:48):
bring in that way, which Ilike. I have a feeling I'm going
to be watching some some Scarlet andViolet and some Pokemon Trading card game in
two weeks time, and Unite aswell. I do enjoy Night, but
that's an interesting approaches. Have abunch of games at once and see what
happens. Riot may be taking thatapproach as well. They have League of
Legends, which is their big oneobviously probably the biggest esport in the world

(32:13):
the FIFA of esports if you arecompetitive gaming, if you ask me.
They have Legends of Room Terror,which has a following but not as big.
Same with Team Fight Tactics, andthen Project l which was announced this
week to be demoed at EVO iscoming up. No one knows when or
how far away that actually is.They had said twenty twenty three, and

(32:35):
unless but unless they do an earlyaccess sort of thing, I think that
gets pushed to twenty twenty four becauseonly a four characters ready for EVO next
week, and that's not a lot. But I want them to take their
time. They can, you know, they can do whatever they want with
that game. It looks fantastic.But so Riot may be going with the

(32:57):
multi pronged approach as well. Eventuallythey just need to build run Tera,
Legends of run Tera and Team FightTactics competitive scene as well. I still
think, and I've said this beforeand I will say it again, that
a potential money making venture would bea city based competitive fighting game league where

(33:22):
you take people from different cities whoare good at different games, and you
treat the games as quote unquote weightclasses in a UFC style competition or competition
based league. So you have thestreet Fighter weight class where street Fighter six
is heavily promoted. You have thetech In weight class where right now it's

(33:45):
tech and seven, but as soonas Second eight comes out, that'll be
the one everyone's playing the Guilty YearStrive weight class, and you can change.
You know, you can have asmany or as little as you want.
Obviously you'd want to be with currentgames. You don't want to.
You know, no one's going totune into the Capcom Versus S and K
two division except for you know me. But I'm wondering how that would work

(34:12):
because I know there's a huge communityof players here in Philadelphia. I know
there's one in New York. Iknow there's two separate ones in North and
South California, nor Cal and SOCW. You could probably keep them separate or
combine them, however the franchisees wouldwant to do it. You could have
your North Cow. I would dothe NorCal and the SOCA, and then
you have your your Northwest, youhave the South, you have the Midwest.

(34:36):
There there are prominent communities everywhere.You could make a squad of fighting
game players with alternates or backups orwhat have you. Even like different ranks.
You could have the Master level,which is where you'd find your your
EMS and your your maina rds.Although MANA is Dominican Republic, but hey,
you can include them too. Whythe heck not. They certainly deserve

(34:59):
it. He's the two only twotime Capcom Cup champion in existence. That
that clearly something's going right down inDominican Republic street Fighter scene. You're you
could have you know, pioneer rankor or mid rank or or entry rank,
whatever you'd want to call it,and people can move up those individual
ranks in their game as well.There is a there is a system you

(35:22):
could make here with fighting games,and in my opinion, as I said
before, it would have to befighting games because fighting games are the easiest
video games, competitive based video gamesto understand just by looking at the screen.
If you've listened to my show,you've heard me say this multiple multiple

(35:42):
times, but it does bear repeating. When you're looking at the screen.
If you're not a gamer, ifyou're not a person with a video game
background, and you look at thescreen during a League of Legends, Uh,
you know World's broadcast. Let's sayWorlds is coming up soon. You've
no idea what's going on that screen. There are too many symbols, there

(36:05):
are too many things to pay attentionto. None of them know what's going
on. I've been watching Worlds basicallyevery year since I've started this podcast,
and I've kept up with the LCSfor the most part ever since I started
this podcast in twenty twenty. I'mthree years in and I still have no
idea what some of those symbols mean. I know the basic gist of the
mechanics, but I don't know thenitty gritty. And that's me being three

(36:30):
years into it. So I understandit, but I don't quite completely wrap
my head around it, if thatmakes sense. Same with Overwatch. I
Overwatch and Call of Duty of adifferent issue. They have less information that
needs to be taken in than aLeague of Legends or adda, but they

(36:52):
also are too fast, especially whenthey go into the first person viewpoints.
I've tried watching this with my parents, and I've tried watching it with you
know, my wife who doesn't followvideo games like I do, and other
people who aren't Call of Duty anOverwatch fans, and some of them get
motion sick just because it's too fast. Those those first person views of the

(37:15):
players playing are just whipping around toomuch. There's too many flattened Nope,
it's hard for the casual non gamerwho you're trying to attract here to understand
fighting games, you don't have that. You have two people on the screen
unless's a team base game. Thenthey can switch back and forth. There's
a health bar, there's a superboar on the bottom to see how much

(37:37):
meter they have, how much timesleft in the round, how many rounds
have been played, who won therounds that have been played, who won
the matches that have been played,based on the overlays of the tournament,
like if it's one one in thesets, or if it's one oho ie,
if player won won the first matchand they're in the second one,
you know what I'm talking about.And that's it. That's all the information
you need. Everything's there. Andthen you could even throw a little wwe

(38:01):
in there if you get the personalitiesthat go in. I know that Punk
from the street fighter community has abit of an edge to him. He
might make a good heel. Youmight have a good white meat baby face.
You could throw some you could throwsome performance in there. If the
person has the jobs to be ableto perform. That is a possibility too.

(38:22):
So you could build a fighting gameleague that way, right instead of
just you know, letting people sitdown play fighting games, which again are
super easy for those who don't playvideo games to understand in comparison to other
competitive games, but still might notbe enough to keep their interests. You
want to give him some personalities too, Like tell me Sonic Fox wouldn't be

(38:44):
a perfect champion for something like this. Of course they would, of course
they would. I that is myyou know, that's my pipe dream vision
for a city based fighting game league. I don't know that it'll ever happen,
but I certainly don't have the capitalfor it. But I can be

(39:05):
the ideas guy. If somebody's gotthe money, just throw out my way
and we'll make we'll see if wecan make it happen. But regardless to
kind of you know, latch onto that point in Nash and I talked
about this in the in the interviewin the first segment. It may have
to be that competitive gaming leagues areoutside third parties that license these games and
come to partnership agreements with the developersthat make them, like MLG used to

(39:30):
be. Because it has been provennow unless you're Riot Games or Valve or
someone with a stupid amount of money, it's really hard to keep a league
like this running in house. LikeI talk about EVO. EVO has all
these different games coming, but PlayStationowns it. It's the only one they
own. On the circuit too.Each game has their own league, like

(39:53):
Tech and World Tour or Capcom Cupor what have you. But Evo is
like the cent point where they allcome. They all talk to EVO,
and EVO handles all the planning thatmight be what needs to happen across the
board for the majority of competitive gamesnow, like an Overwatch, like the

(40:14):
Apex series, if that were tocome back after the Overwatch League rendered it
moot Call of Duty World League wasI think that was run by a third
party before the actual Call of DutyLeague started. Get a Halo League going
back under MLG. If that trademarkeven still exists, I don't know,
but that I think is where thefuture of competitive games lies. You're going

(40:37):
to have companies that come up,come into existence who specialize in the organization,
administration and action of for you know, whatever the creation administration they're putting
on of esports events, competitive gamingevents, to weekend long tournaments, week

(40:58):
long tournaments, whatever it is.That's how it's going to happen from here
on out. And it has tobe that way because clearly the companies who
are running these games, again,for the most part, it's not a
it's not everyone, but for themost part, just aren't able to keep
it sustained for a long period oftime. Now, Overwatch League has been

(41:19):
around for six years. This iswhat might be its seventh season, including
twenty seventeen, and you know,they did get through a pandemic somewhat unscathed.
But if the teams vote to leave, that's not true anymore. They
already lost the team this year inChengdu, as we mentioned with Ash in
that interview. So this the theera of third party competitive gaming event organizers,

(41:45):
I think is where is approaching.I think that's where competitive gaming goes
from here because e sports became athing where a bunch of young a bunch
of people threw a bunch of moneyin there because they wanted to make it
the next big thing, particularly inthe pandemic era when people couldn't leave their
houses and everyone was playing video games, and once you know, the crypto

(42:12):
bubble burst, and once they startedto realize that like the teams weren't as
well funded as it needed to beor whatever it else, that was happening,
the money left and it's not thereanymore. And now we're picking up
the pieces, and all the fansof all these teams who put in,
who invested their time and their moneythrough merchandise sales and you know who,
some people might have traveled to events, they get nothing. They get the

(42:39):
crap end of the stick, asit were. And that's a shame.
That is a real shame because onceagain the executives and the and the organizations
that paid the exorbitant amount of moneyto get in here, they're going to
get some of them, maybe notall of it, but some of their
investment back. And the rest ofus who championed these teams are going to

(43:00):
get a pat on ahead and athank you, and that's unfair. I
would be jilted if I was moreinto the Overwatch League than I am.
Admittedly, since Philadelphia left and wentto Seoul, I haven't watched a single
match. I can't bring myself todo it, particularly one with Soul in

(43:20):
it. It just makes me toosad. I might pop in for the
finals, but if the Infernal makethose finals, I'll be very upset.
There will be there will be rageon this show if the Soul Infernal left
Philadelphia and their reward was a championship, but we may be talking about the

(43:43):
last ever Overwatch League champion rights.I want to I want to get that
in while I can, because asI expect, come this year or come
the springtime, there won't be anOverwatch League as we know anymore, because
the organizations are gonna cut bait,take their money, and run. And
frankly, I don't necessarily blame themfor that, but I will be sad

(44:07):
that it's happening. Coming up afterthe break, we will talk about certain
critiques with video games nowadays and howunfortunately the things that people put a lot
of value into just don't matter.Sorry to say they don't matter. Stick
around all right, Welcome back tothe Chief Stakes in Controller's episode number one

(44:27):
hundred and thirty six, And afterall that doom and gloom about the esports
industry, competitive gaming industry, Ireally got to start, you know,
following my own example here and talkingwith the incredible Ash Parish that was not
dooming gloom. That was a greatconversation. I wanted to switch topics here
to close things out this week andjust address a little bit of a Twitter

(44:52):
controversy that came out, so somebody. Previews for Armored Core six Fires of
Rubicon came out earlier this week,I want to say, Monday or Tuesday.
Tuesday, yes, and you know, video previews, written previews,
all that good stuff, and itlooks fun, it looks really good.
Armored Core is admittedly a franchise thatI am not too familiar with, but

(45:15):
based on what I'm watching, basedon what I'm seeing, it really does
seem like a lot of fun somethingI can get behind. Right. So
a particular video review or video previewcomes out and they spend about two minutes
talking about the way the game looksand how it's on old engine, it's

(45:36):
on old framework, and from Softneeds to stop limiting themselves. And nobody
would argue that Elder Ring was ugly, but but it was on a you
know, an old engine. Thethe I don't really like they're basically saying
because it was on old framework thatit's ugly, right, and then need

(45:59):
to start using a new engine,bring out this new engine, shift to
Unreal five and all this other stuff. And I'm just here to tell you,
sir, whoever reviewed this, whoevermade this preview, that graphics ain't
nothing. I'm sorry. Look,I enjoy a good looking game as much

(46:21):
as the next person. I love, like in Horizon, getting on a
you know, a cliff and lookingout over the world and seeing, you
know, all that beauty, especiallywith a nice sunset or sunrise. If
I'm in that time of in gameworld, that in game world time or
whatever, I love that. Don'tget me wrong, it's wonderful, it's

(46:42):
all inspiring, it's breathtaking, butit doesn't last very long. If I
could, if I could just beatinto the heads of every person who enjoys
video games one thing, well twothings. One it would be be nice
to each other, and two itwould be the graphics are not the most
important part of a game. I'msorry, they're not. They're what bring

(47:07):
you in, but they're not whatkeep you there. You know what keeps
you there? A good gameplay,loop, fun mechanics, a good story.
That's what keeps you there. MyI would argue that if you put
story, gameplay, and graphics nextto each other. This is my personal

(47:29):
opinion, I do admit, butstory for me is number one. A
game can play great, a gamecould look great. But if I'm not
interested in what's going on in thestory. If I'm not intrigued by what's
happening in it, I may loseinterest. Next is gameplay mechanics. If
the stories is okay and the graphicsare you know, not great, but

(47:51):
it plays very well, I maystick with it to see if the story
improves. If it doesn't, thenit didn't. But but I'm willing to
forgive a subpar story if the gameis fun to play, right, But
if the story sucks and the gameplaysucks, I don't care how good it
looks, it doesn't matter. Noneof that matters. Putting so much emphasis

(48:13):
on graphical fidelity is tired. It'stired. Stop doing it, Stop doing
it, don't. I don't playgames to look at things. I play
games to play games. If Iwanted to just look at something, I'd
watch a movie or a television show. And there are plenty of options for

(48:34):
that, some of them taking fromvideo games, So you may not have
to wait too long to play thegame you want to look at so bad
But I don't understand, And maybethis is just because I haven't playing games
for you know what, thirty fiveyears now, A thirty five thirty thirty
thirty two years now, whatever theactual number is, and I've seen where

(48:54):
they've come from. I know howit used to be. And I don't
want to get all like old manyell as a cloud here. I'm not
trying to be like that. I'mjust trying to make a point that while
graphics are you know they are,I don't want to say that they're that,
they're not, you know, useless. Obviously we need things to look

(49:15):
at, and if a game hashigh fidelity, realistic graphics, cool,
But if the story the game istrying to tell sucks and the game plays
like crap, it could be themost they could have actual people in it,
but it doesn't matter. Graphics don'tmatter as much as story and game

(49:42):
player. That's not to say thatthe artists who make them aren't talented and
I don't appreciate their art I donot want this to sound like I do
not appreciate what graphical engineers and artistsand animators and all the things that they
do. I don't want to saythat they're not important in the development.
They are. What I'm saying iswhen it comes to the user experience,

(50:04):
when it comes to us with thecontrollers in our hands and the games on
our screens. What we are lookingat is less important than what we are
doing if a game, and aperfect example of this is old school retro
style games like Shovel Knight. ShovellKnight is always the game I go to
when this argument comes up between meand my pals. Shovel Knight was a

(50:29):
retro two D platformer that mixed MegaMan with duck Tails, and it came
out in twenty fourteen, and itbecame one of the biggest indie franchises ever
made. Did it need shiny upup to snuff, you know, top
of the line graphics, No,it needed eight bit pixels. The Messenger

(50:52):
another example. The Messenger is afantastic experience with a wonderful story told incredibly
well. What did that use aninteresting hook where it switched between eight bit
Andy s graphics and sixteen bit SegaGenesis with the music changing also to add
a little extra flavor. Did notneed to look like the you know,

(51:16):
God of Wars or whatever chaos cameout that year. I don't know what
your themester came out. I wantto say twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen so
yeah, whatever came out in thattime frame, the next game in that
in that franchise. Technically, eventhough it's a major prequels, I,
as I'm told, made to understand. See if Stars that looks like Chrono
Trigger Corono Trigger was a sixteen bitSuper Nintendo game, one of the most

(51:38):
influential games of all time, andthis game Seas Stars is pulling from that.
Now. Their animations definitely are benefitingfrom current technology. I get that,
and they are gorgeous, But ifthe RPG loop, if the gameplayer
loop ain't good, or if thestory ends up suffering, I'm not going

(51:59):
to stick with it, no matterhow beautiful those hand Droin's automations are.
I can think of multiple games whocame out looking flashy ended up disappointing.
There are many, There are many, even this year. It just I
don't understand when and I know Itotally sound like old man Yells's cloud here,

(52:22):
but I'm sorry. It's just theway I feel. I don't understand
when playing a game became less importantthan looking at one, right. I
don't remember when. I don't Idon't I don't realize where, I don't
remember when it became less important tofocus on what the characters are doing on
the screen and the story they're tellingand the way that you're controlling them.

(52:43):
That it was at Oh look atthat face, like if I'm if,
I'm if I'm playing Control right,Control's beautiful game, But what makes Control
so good is how you control Jessein that environment. How you're floating around,
You're shooting this gun that has allthese crazy properties. You're you're you're
seeing these you know, monstrosities comingat you when you're fighting them in really

(53:07):
fun ways. That is an examplewhere the graphical fidelity actually ties into everything,
creating mood, creating tone, butbuilding on the story that's being told.
That is an example I would usewhere the graphics buffers the story and
the gameplay. That's one where Ithink all three are in sync. And

(53:30):
that's one where one example where graphicscan be considered, you know, an
important part of that story because theyset the mood. Yeah, not every
game's graphics set the mood. Theyjust go for realism, so you cannot
you cannot put as much emphasis onthem as you are. And using Armored
Corris example, yes, it isbuilt on an older engine, but the

(53:50):
art design in the world and ofthe mex and the style that's in that
game supersedes that you shouldn't be lookingat graphics, you should be looking at
art direction. If I could goa different way with this argument too,
it doesn't matter how the final productlooks. It matters how it's designed.
If everybody looks like real life,who cares? Again, it goes back

(54:13):
to if the Glock's game looks great, but the story is boring and the
gameplay is boring, who cares.What I'm trying to say here, and
I'm probably not doing a very goodjob of it because I'm getting huff on
a rant, but I hope youunderstand what I'm getting at is that at
the end of the day, weplay video games, we don't watch them.

(54:36):
So if you're going to be playingthese games, while graphics and fidelity
is a part of it, itis not the part of it. So
to spend so much time focusing onthe engines being used and all this other
stuff is asinine. It is afool's argument, and it's one that's only
going to get you As is whathappened this week, dragged dragged through the

(55:01):
mud, and you probably have youknow, you've probably I haven't been able
to see any replies. I onlylooked for the tweet that caught my eye
when this first started. But Ijust if I could portray anything in this
argument, it's that I want peopleto start focusing on playing the games as

(55:24):
opposed to just worrying about watching themand looking at them and all that stuff.
A game should not be disqualified becauseit was on an older framework or
an older engine, doesn't make anysense. And he even used My favorite
part is he talks about how it'son this older engine, they need to

(55:46):
update it and all this other stuff, and then talks about elden Ring how
it was on that engine too,and elder was one of those successful games
of this century. Bottles the mind. I don't know. Again, I'm
probably just sounding like some old gamingboomer who should you know, let's get

(56:07):
you to bed, grandpa. ButI'm more concerned with how a game plays
and the story that it tells thanthe way that it looks doing it.
And there are plenty of examples thatsupport my theory on this that I could
give if you are inclined to arguewith me, which you can do at
Big Man Finale on Twitter or xor whatever the hell it's calling itself now

(56:30):
or whatever social media that you use. I'm happy to talk about this more
in depth if you want to.I just think that I would really like
people to stop worrying about things likegraphics. Graphics can be beautiful, and
again, the artists and animators whomake them come to life are very talented
people. But in my evaluation ofgames, it is but one asset,

(56:52):
one facet to a greater scheme,and one that I don't think should hold
as much weight as it does.And I'm maybe alone in this, but
I just feel like there are moreimportant things in a game when it comes
to critiquing than the way it looks. If the art direction is very good,
if the style that it's using isgood, that I don't care.

(57:14):
If it's not the most realistic lookingthing in the world. If it looks
cool without looking real that's not aproblem, and I wish we would stop
making it one in the future.So stop doing that, stop it,
go to your room. I don'tcare. But so that's my opinion on
that. I hope open the gamecomes out, people are focusing on how

(57:35):
awesome it is to be a mechand Slash other maxim all that good stuff
instead of just worrying about you know, maybe one of the max legs popped
into screen and it ruined the experiencefor you. If that happens, I'm
very sorry, but it shouldn't.That shouldn't happen. But we are now
at the end of episode number onethirty six of The Chief Steaks and Controller's

(57:57):
podcast presented by Fox PHL The Gamblerone or two point five am pm FM.
Sorry F fourteen eighty am. iHeartRadio. I forgot how radio works or
wherever you get your podcasts. AsI say every single week, if you
are hearing these words, you havereached the end of the episode, and
I am always grateful that you did. I hope you were entertained, educated,
enjoyed what you heard. Thank youagain to Ash Parish of The Verge

(58:22):
for joining me today on this escapade. Looking ahead to next week. Next
week is EVO and I have abig episode planned for that. We're going
to talk about what's going on atEVO. We're going to talk about the
games being played, potential announcements,and maybe an interviewer two. You'll just
have to wait and see on thatthat episode is going to go up Thursday,

(58:44):
the third, so one day early, because EVO starts on Friday,
and I don't I would like toget mine out before the EVO festivity start.
If you're traveling on Thursday to Vegas, it'll be a good companion for
your flight out there. I hopeyou'll enjoy that. But before that happens,
I hope you have a fantastic weekend. I hope you have an even
better week right behind it. Andwe will be back next week with more

(59:07):
of the latest and greatest in videogames and competitive gaming here on Cheese,
Steaks and Controllers. I am JasonFinelli, and I will talk to you
again next week. Bye bye.