Critters in Cars: A Surprise Repair
“It’s like cheap underwear—it creeps up on you when you least expect it.”
This week, Ron shared a classic “Critters in Cars” story. A 2014 Honda Accord rolled into the shop with two unrelated fault codes: one for the throttle body and one for the purge valve. No connection between them—except that they were both on the same vehicle.
Turns out, the throttle body was filthy—carbon buildup so bad it gouged a ring in the housing. The fix? A new throttle body and a computer reflash. Easy enough.
But the purge valve? That’s where it got weird.
Even after replacing the valve, the car still wouldn’t show any change in fuel tank pressure during purge events. That meant the system wasn’t functioning—and Ron had a hunch. A closer look revealed chewed wires near the vent valve harness. Mouse damage.
Still, the pressure sensor wasn’t responding. The final clue? A tiny spiderweb inside the charcoal canister. Full of gunk. Blocked solid.
🛠️ The Fix: A new throttle body, repaired wiring, and a new canister. The car’s now running right.
🕷️ The Lesson: When check engine lights pop up, especially if there are multiple codes, don’t assume it’s all new. Rodent damage and long-term neglect often lurk underneath.
Ron’s takeaway? Drivers need to be more aware of their cars. Because what looks like a “just came on” light might actually be months of hidden trouble—and a mouse with a taste for wiring.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to Ron Andanian The Car Doctor, nationally recognized
auto expert trusted by Mechanics, Weekend wrenchers and vehicle owners alike.
Ron brings over forty years of hands on experience and
deep industry insight to help you understand your vehicle. Join
The Conversation live every Saturday from two to four pm
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nine nine zero zero. That's eight five to five five
(00:25):
six zero ninety nine hundred, your direct line to honest
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and be sure to subscribe to the Car Doctor YouTube
channel for exclusive videos, real repair footage and more. Now
start your engines. The Car Doctor is in the garage
(00:47):
and ready to take your call.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I want to talk about crittersan cars. Hello and welcome.
I always love a crittersan car car repair. Is that
correct English? Yeah? Critisan car, Yeah, critician car A criticisan
car car repair. Let's dwell on that for a second. Ken,
I don't have time, Tom jelling at we have way
too many calls this hour. Criticism cars are just interesting.
(01:10):
And you know the fun part is it's it's especially
like it when you get a critician car car repair.
That's sort of like cheap underwear. It creeps up on
you when you least expect it. It just it just did.
We had this fourteen Honda Accord this week at the
shop and it had two fault codes. It had a
P twenty one five, which is a throttle blader I'm sorry,
(01:31):
a throttle actuat or control circuit fault. And it had
a peive see I think it was, or a P
fourteen fifty five manufacturer specific fault which was purge valve related.
So I have a throttle body fault and I have
a purge valve event fault. And you know they're about
(01:53):
is the opposite end of the spectrum. There's there's no
continuity between the two. When I asked the customer when
did this happen? Did they how long has the light
been on? The answer I got, oh, it just came
on the other day, which really left me scratching my head.
Now I'm questioning, and I'm still questioning. Is the customer
accurate in their in their statement? Did they not see it?
How long was it on because the two really have
(02:14):
no connection other than the fact that they're on the
same vehicle. The twenty one oh five was easy enough
that there's fault codes and or there's fault codes and
bulletins and known diagnostic routines that you go through. And
sure enough, on this one hundred and fifty five thousand
mile accord, the throttle plate was so dirty, so dirty,
lack of maintenance, and that's usually when you see the
(02:36):
throttle body fault codes, and it costs you in the
long run. That the throttle plate actually stuck in the housing.
There was such a ridge of carbon, and I get
fussy when I see that, I will take it apart.
I have to take it off, and I look at
the backside. The backside of the throttle plate had actually
way more carbon on it than the front. It was
really accumulated, and when I cleaned it there was a
(02:58):
notch in the throttle housing. That hard carbon had beat
up the aluminum and over time it had dug a
groove in the form of a ring around it. So
I replaced the throttle body. I'm not doing this three times,
and we want to get this over with and be done.
So we put a throttle body on it. It now worked,
It moves smoothly, there was no sticking, there was no
notchiness to it, and there was a reflash involved. There
(03:19):
was a reflash that had to be done. Thanks to
the folks as Opus ivs. As always, they always ride
in and help us with our reflashing. Now, because it's
gotten to be so darn expensive to have every tool.
With my Opus scantol you hear me talking about all
the time, I'm able to just dial it in and
say here, flash this and we're done. And that part
of the repair was really straightforward and clean cut. The
(03:40):
purge valve was unique, indifferent. It was a little bit
of a toughie because I was able to prove that
the purge valve itself had failed. The purge valve is
the front door. The purge valve is up front, and
you know, we put a perge valve on it, but
yet the code wouldn't go away and a deeper dive.
(04:01):
I now had a purge valve that worked right. And
the mere fact that this had multiple problems in the
EVAP system made me wonder how long has it been inactive?
The purge valve worked, but I'd still get the same fault.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
The way this fault occurs the computer turns on the
purge valve, and it doesn't know that it turned on
the perge valve. It's expected that it turned on the
purge valve. What it does is it looks at the
FTP fuel tank pressure, so suck in. If you suck
in right, that suction should create a vacuum. If you were,
(04:35):
you know, into a paper bag, you compress the bag right, Well,
the same thing is happening to the gas tank you're
sucking in. The purge event is a kind of an event,
and you would expect fuel tank pressure to get lower,
and you would see a drop in voltage, typically around
two and a half volts. You would expect to see
it go down, and it's not a huge jump. Two
(04:56):
and a half two point four five, two point four,
two point three five, et cetera. Never moved. FTP never moved,
which I thought was kind of interesting because I said, well, gee,
I didn't have a purge valve before the purge valve
wasn't working. That's why the FTP never dropped. But I
still had a non purge event, so to speak. I
(05:16):
had no FTP change do it a little bit deeper dive,
and sure enough in the back critters and cars, right
where you least expect it, where the wiring harness comes
up along the top of the frame row, where you
don't really see it until you get curious, or more
curious you find that a critter, I think a little
mouse Mickey was up there, and I see k e
(05:39):
y and he chewed through the white and red wires
that lead up to the to the vent valve. But
that won't do it either, because the vent valve is
normally open, right the event valve has to be open
when a vehicle is driving alonger, when a vehicle is
(06:00):
shut off, they would leave the vent open to let
fresh air for tank expansion so the tank doesn't overpressurize.
And when you purge, you're going to leave the vent
valve open under most conditions, certain conditions you'll close the vent.
But yet I still had no change in FTPAY. Now,
fortunately they put the fuel time pressure sensor on the
(06:20):
charcoal canister, so you know it's not often you see
this with a canister. I lowered the canister down and
I very carefully took out the FTP and of course
I fixed the wiring harness leading up to the vent valve,
and it made no differences. I would expect it not to,
but it was a legitimate you know, there's something wrong there.
(06:41):
And sure enough I found the tiniest of spider webs
inside the canister, and the canister was just filled with
I don't want to tell you a crut on radio,
but in case anybody's eating lunch. But it was just
kind of ugly and it just it was a blockage.
Put a canister in the car's fixed, and I guess
(07:04):
the adventure. And like I said, it creeps up on
your like cheap underwear is. You never know when it's
going to happen. It just you start to go through
the diagnostic routine. You take it apart, piece by piece.
You're working on that system, bad perch chewed through wiring,
animal or debris or bugs or whatever you want to
call it inside the canister. And then you come back
(07:26):
and ask yourself the question how long was it like this?
Because all of this didn't happen overnight. The wiring harness
was actually green and corroded. That doesn't happen. They told me, Well,
the light came on Tuesday. Well that doesn't happen on
Wednesday morning, that the wires are corroded like that, that
it looks like that it's getting tougher fixing cars. It
(07:47):
really is. And part of the problem is, I don't
know if people, and I'll say this gently, if vehicle
owners are aware of their vehicles or that die held
in that when they see a change of state, or
it's just the light. You know, every light's the check
engine light. You ever notice that I got a light
on my desh, Oh, it's a check engine light or
(08:09):
tire pressure monitoring system TPMs. Lights don't mean anything. They're
there to tell you it needs an oil change. You know,
there's a lot of misconception out there, and it just
proves the value of well what I've been saying for
years about educating the public. The public needs to be
educated more about their vehicles and realize the implications of
what they're creating when they ignore things but critters and cars,
(08:32):
they sure make for an interesting scenario, they really do.
And it goes on and on and on and on.
So let me pull over and take the pause. Tom's
yelling and screaming, will not yelling and scream and he's
just I can see him getting excited. But let me
let me pull over and take a pause here eight
five five five six zero nine to nine zero zero
and I'm run an enny of the car doctor. I
(08:52):
will be back right after this. Don't go away. Carl
and Maine fifteen Ford Edge. Carl, welcome to the car doctor.
Sure you're on. How can I help?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I hope you can help me. Pleasure talking with you.
I'm a Ford man. I worked at the Ford Garage
when I came out of the Navy in seventy and
worked for three or four years, and then I went
climbing poles. Different job, different life. But anyway, it's a
twenty fifteen Ford Edge. We bought it brand new. It's
only got thirty three thousand on it now and it
(09:25):
stays garaged most of the time. I don't use it much.
I still work hoot time, so they provide me with
a vehicle. That being said, the car has always been
in the in the shop, Like I said, in my garage.
The other one woke up this is actually Mother's Day,
took up my wife to the lunch with stuff in
(09:46):
the just the window or which you'd call maybe the
sun roof on the forward edge right big, that's got
a hairline crack in it, and it's spider cracked actually,
and I had them save it's been replaced. Ford replaced
it one thousand bucks. But it's not a stone bruise
or anything. I saved it just to prove it. There's
(10:07):
no there's no little binging it like you'd see like
a stone bruise or anything. It just cracked. And obviously
it's just the outside part of the glass, not the
inside as well. It's double aid. But then can't figure
out why I called a Ford talked to two different people.
(10:27):
They said, well, that's not under warranty. I said, yeah,
I understand, but we did check one line. There's several
other vehicles that the same thing that year, twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen. And I'm just wondering if Ford's got a
problem that they won't really talk about or I don't
want to do anything about. And I'll add I'll add
two that the tig goes down the road straight. So
(10:50):
I don't think I've ever talked a frame or anything
or twisted, you know, the guy's never been in an accident,
goes down the road straight. I've had it lined up
before the same tie as like at the original ties
on the Michelins. Very good, but I'm just wondering if
you've got any ideas.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You know, Carl, you explained it absolutely spot on correct.
You covered the bass, my friend, and you have valid arguments.
And as I listened to you, I said, this is
a man that has a logical sequential mind when it
comes to diagnosing a problem. Try and get your hands
(11:29):
on Ford bulletin. This is where I say the day,
try and get your I'm sorry, try and get your
hands on Ford bulletin sixteen dish double seventy nine. There's
a couple of bulletins that Ford talks about with things
like rattles and pops and taps and ticks, problems with
the B pillar related to the sun roof, and it
(11:53):
almost makes me think, you know, I remember looking at one.
I didn't see a hairline crack, but I had the
noise experience. And I wonder if I wonder if somehow
there's a problem with the top body seam at the
B pillar that's causing a distortion or pressure or something
that's affecting that sunroof. Because I agree with you, it's
if they're all doing it in the same place. It
either has to be the way the roof is assembled,
(12:15):
or it has to be the way that the sunroof
is positioned or carried in the ceiling of the vehicle
such that it's a vibration or just normal use is
going to cause that item to crack, because it shouldn't.
All right, It's it's easy enough to say, well, a
rock hit it, a tree hit it, But as you said,
(12:35):
you would see a.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Mark, yes, right, and I.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And I think it's I think it's a pressure thing,
and I'd be willing to bet and correct me if
I'm wrong. I bet you don't use the sunroof that often,
do you.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Oh, we don't. We probably wouldn't buy one again, right,
we don't that much. But it was it came with
a vehicle, and I like the idea of it.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a sunroof guy myself, but
as you say, so many vehicles come with it.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
One of the reasons I don't like sunroofs on a
sort of the same vein but different topic, is sunroofs
are a calculated leak. Did you ever think about this
in the sense that they all have water drains and
the water drain gets clogged and then it floods the
interior of the vehicle. But what people don't realize is
if the sunroof was perfectly sealed, why would they need
(13:24):
a water drain. You're not going to have the sunroof
open when it's raining out. Okay, right, so don't I
don't like sunroofs. I don't think they're great for security.
I don't think they're great in this situation. For the
few times that you know, you use a sunroof, which
is nothing more than a vertical or i'm sorry, a
horizontal window, it gets very expensive to repair. But look
at that bulletin. You know what exactly is Ford saying?
(13:46):
They ask you in there does the vehicle have a rattle, pop,
tick noise at the top of the b pillar going
over bumps and then they go through different things with
the sunroof And is that somehow related to your condition?
And does that apply to your vehicle? I think for
Ford to say, hey, we don't have a problem, it's
not us. I think they're blowing smoke. I think they're
covering their tracks.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Okay, run, can you give me a bullet in one
more time?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
TSB sixteen dish double O seventy nine. Yep, all right,
Now it's before a certain bill date. If I remember correctly,
it's before August of twenty fifteen. So if you have
an early one, if you have an early edge. But
I would still look at it, because I've also seen
where they say before a certain date and you find
out three months later the bulletin still applies. But I
(14:33):
would start to dig and look into body bulletins and
does anything there ring a bell or correlate or make
sense to apply to that, because maybe you know, Ford
may not be aware of it. You've got to remember
Ford may not be looking back that far. The guys
at the dealership, not picking on them, but just saying,
that vehicle's nine years old, eight years old, already eight
nine years old depending on your perspective. But you know
(14:53):
that's what I'm saying. It's ten years old, right, that's
a fifteen Yeah, yeah, that vehicle's ten years old. In
their eyes, it's an old vehicle. Sure, so but that's
how I that's how I would look at that.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Okay, thank you. That will getting started and give me
a different avenue. I thought i'd be able to talk
to him tech and always talk to three different ones
and had to get finally get to a passenger car,
you know, rather than the forward pickup tech I talked to.
And the last last statement, well, it's it's not under warranty.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, you know, to a degree. We're not so interested
if it's under warranty or not. We don't want it
to happen again. Yeah, So so what aren't we fixing
that We're too lazy to walk over and start doing
a little bit of research. I can't stand on that
soapbox enough.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Carl.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Every job in the shop, and sometimes it's clear cut,
you know, check engine light stuff or abs, you know, airbags,
anti break or air bag stuff. You're always doing research.
Sometimes it's that weird noise. Sometimes it's a water leak something.
I can't tell you how many times standing in front
of the computer fifteen twenty minutes a half hour reading
trying to gather information that I, you know, need to
(16:07):
in order to give the customer a correctly repaired vehicle.
Research is an essential mandatory part of every repair every
repair shop that calls me during the week with questions
about well I started working on this car and it
does this now? Usually they dove in head first and
found out there's no water in the pool.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And you know you.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Gotta look before you leap. Brother, it's very very important.
All right, let me know what happens if you need more,
And just real quick, you've talked to Ford Corporate about this?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yes, I did, okay, and I might not. I go
to hold the right people because you don't know. I
mean being that few years I was at the Ford
dealership here in Pittsfield, Maine. They have a rep food
come in once in a while. You could talk to
him personal, face to face. Yeah, that's all gone. You know.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I saw I saw a thing real quick the other day.
Just for everybody's information in yours. They're now doing zoom
headphones where the Ford tech is wearing a zoom binocular,
so to speak, and while he's talking to the engineer,
he's looking at the problem and the engineers analyzing it,
going well, you need to do this, you need to
do that. So the days of them putting an engineer
on the spot in the dealership are probably going away,
(17:16):
if they haven't already. I appreciate it, Carl, you'd be well,
I'm running eny in the car. Doctor I'm back right
after this. Let's go over to Bill in Michigan. Keep
the phones going today. Eight five to five five six
zero nine nine zero zero again eight five to five
five six zero nine nine zero zero. Bill your own
with the card doctor. How can I help?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Thanks? Ron granddaughter has a two thousand and nine Chevrolet
and Paalo with one hundred and twenty thousand miles. I'm
looking for some diagnostic direction here. When the ambient air
temperature is above seventy degrees intermittently, some of the power
locks will not lock or unlock with the keyfob. I
have two different key fobs. I've tried them both. Nothing changes,
(17:58):
there's no pattern. The right rear door is the most
frequent offender. When you put the car and drive, all
the locks activate correctly. I've had no accidents and there's
no codes in the BCM, so.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's it's it's only when temperature gets above a certain point,
correct Have you disconnected the actuators and placed the ball
across them? Have not?
Speaker 4 (18:19):
That's kind of my next step. Corrosion is maybe what
I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I'm thinking maybe corrosion. Maybe we've got broken wires and
we're down to a couple of strands, although they do
work in when you go from park to drive, it
should be signaled on the same wires. But I'm wondering
if do we have a problem with the connection at
the actuator. But that wouldn't make sense because it still
wouldn't work when you put it in drive. So I've
got to come back to is it the actuator itself?
(18:44):
Just because just because it's certain ones, it's not all
of them. It's one or two, correct, right? I think
the next step is to eliminate and you know, is
it is it? Is it able to produce it and
handle the load? So I'm for a small ball across
the actual itself and see if that makes it work.
And if that doesn't make it work, then we're going
to go back and start to look at how the
(19:05):
system operates, start looking at connections, resistance, that kind of thing,
broken wires. Although I can't find I can't see where
that diagnosis holds water at this point, I'd have to
do some other testing. But you know, it may be
as simple as just tired actuators.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
That's kind of what I'm leaning towards, but again, I
won't go there until I run the rest of this test.
Those locks do not have to be programmed, I might correct.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No, I don't believe they do. It should be a
straight plug and play type of operation.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Okay. Second question, I've got a ninety four Chevrolet truck
that I'm in the final stages of a restoration. It's
an all stock truck. There's no modifications whatsoever. Have a
radio frequency interference problem which I had prior to the restoration.
That's only on AM. The FM is okay. As part
of the restoration, I change the original antenna and the
(19:54):
mass the cable between the antenna lead and the radio
is still the same. Change in the condition. I then
remove a serpentine belt to eliminate the alternator. That did nothing.
I grounded the antenna directly to the battery and had
no change. The only thing I haven't done is sprayed
the ignition system with water. Is there anything else I
should be looking at?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Why can't we have a bad radio?
Speaker 4 (20:17):
That's a good question. Ron, it's only thirty years old, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Mean white white Why can't we have a bad radio?
I think? I think the next step I'm going to
tell you is do you have a you know, like
a GM electronics repair facility that they can at least
run it through and put it through their standards.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And you know that's a great idea. Yes, we have
several in my area. I'm not too far from the
GM proven grounds. There are a lot of folks around here.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And just see, could we just have a bad radio?
I know, for example, well my O four suburban that
you guys hear me talk about forever and ever and
the AM radio is starting to get a little wonky.
And I that's next on my list because I've done
everything that you've done. And you know, the funny thing
is now on my truck, I don't have any static.
I have the same static whether the vehicle is running
(21:02):
or not, so I know it's componentry is does your
truck run yet?
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's a it's an on the road vehicle.
I'm in, Like I say, the final stages. This is
like your MONDI Carlo came out of Texas, right, had
a blessing run to not have to deal with RUSS.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Oh my god, you know it's it's it's Texas has
the best place for cars. It's it's really great. But
does the is the noise worse when it's running, or
it's the same whether the vehicle's on or off.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
It's the same, whether it's the same when it's running,
when it's off, I have no noise at all. So
it's got to be something in the ignition I'm speculating the.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Radio or or is it the radio that it doesn't
have the ability to resist electrical noise from the rest
of the vehicle. So is there a problem with it?
Let me just jump here for a second. Let me
go to my radio department. Hang on a minute, Tom
is I think? I think Tom, because Tom, I know
Tom will have some input here. He's my head engineer,
and he's also got a great idea. Is when it
comes to car radios. Tom is he busy? Tom's busy
(21:55):
on the phone. I don't think I can get to
him and Tom, Tom, are you yeah? No, let's see here. Yeah, Tom,
did you hear Bill's call?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I did one of the things I do.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I mean, I know you said that you that you
grounded the antenna directly to the battery. Make sure that
the area where the antenna attaches to the fender there
or whatever it's attached to, is not painted. It's clean,
it's not rusty.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah, I did that.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Okay did did?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Did?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
You? You said you had the it's it's the original
cable that's in there.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Uh. The antenna lead is a replacement. The original cable
from the antenna lead to the radio is an original cable.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, Uh, you may you may want to consider replacing
that because coaxial cable, which is what that is, uh,
tends to dry out and the internal the braid around
the outside which is the ground, will tend to fail.
And you also may just want to check where the
(22:59):
radio is ground. Didn't make sure those grounds are correct,
but I would tend to agree with Ron. It's most
likely the age of the radio and the radio has
probably got a problem.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You guys are awesome. I appreciate it special thanks to
you as well as Ron for having me on and
great information. I will follow those directions.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
You're very welcome, Bill, you'd be well always always glad
to do it. You know, it's and you got to
have a good radio. I'll tell you what in the
vehicle today. Wow, it's just it's just super important. Let's
go to Jeff in Cleveland real quick before the pause
and see what's going on here. Jeff you're on with
the car doctor. How can I help?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
But hey, thank thanks for taking my call. Hey, I
going to want to get to your opinion and thoughts
on I have an two Saturn view. It's got five
hundred and eight thousand on it.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Wait for it, wait a minute, just broken in. Go ahead, brother,
don't tell anybody, they probably want that one back. So,
and what's going on with it?
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Well, so, I want to ask you about the front
O two sensor. It is the original two sensor in
the car, and I've been watching it on you know,
the skiing tool. If you grab the front sensor versus
the rear, you know, the front, you get real good
wave pattern out of it. You know, it goes below
point one volt above point nine, it switches real fast
the rear sensor. You know, I get real good flatline
(24:11):
on It's. The issue I'm having is if you dig
into the Mode six data on the front sensor, it's
it runs six tests on the front sensor. It does
the threshold volts voltage you know, between rich and lean
lean to rich it's around point five. Then it does
the you know how hot does it go? High?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Low?
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Low? Does it go? It needs to be above point
six three volts in below point three, and it's doing that,
and then it does a lean to ridge tests and
it does the time right, and it's it's doing the
lean to rich test. Fine, it's the thresholds like point
one four and it's hitting around point zero six. So
that's fine. That The issue I'm having is on the
(24:53):
Rich to lean Normally it'll run around point eight to
point one and it's suppose to be below point four.
So it's passing all the time, except if it runs
when it's on the highway going above sixty five and
above like fifty percent calculated load. If it runs, then
it's failing. And it's pending a one thirty three code
(25:16):
in the values coming up at point one four four
versus point one four zero, So it's you're barely failing.
And I know what you're thinking, just replace it. Actually,
I'm just afraid to touch it because it's been in
the original sensor.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Actually I'm not thinking just replace it. What I was
gonna do, I'll tell you what. Sit tight and let
me pull over. Take this pause, Well, leave everybody in suspense,
but I have an answer for you in a direction.
Let's see if we can take you there. I'm running
Enny in the car. Doctor. We'll return right after this.
Let's get back to Jeff in Cleveland. Jeff, you're still there.
(25:52):
The answered I failed to ask. Is this a four
cylinder or six cylinder set or four cylinder.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
In the fourth cylinder?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, so you know, And let me tell you your
your diagnosis and the way you're analyzing this is spot on.
I can really appreciate what you're doing the use of
Mode six. There is exactly how you're supposed to use it.
What sort of scan tool are you using?
Speaker 5 (26:13):
It's a Nova of fifty.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, if you had the top of the line scan tool,
a snap on or an hotel or a launch or whoever.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
All right, I do have an encore, all.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, any scan tool to do to use oxygen sensor analysis, graphing,
and to show how well it's performing, okay, compared to
what Mode six actually is. You're not going to like
this answer is like is like comparing the Right Brothers
to the Space Shuttle. It just it just doesn't work.
(26:47):
The only accurate way to test those two sensors in
the field. And I'm told by engineers and teachers, educators
and all the classes I go to that sit there,
and you know they walk, talk and read this twenty
four to seven. Tell me that even lapscopes have a
hard time measuring and showing the true potential of what
an oxygen sensor is doing. So you know you're doing
(27:11):
it right. You've just reached the limit of what you're tooling.
Will tell you you're using mode six, which you're looking at
computer results, right, be fair. The computer's showing you it's
test results, but you're using a scan tool to compare
the So that scan tool is buffer data. It's it
just it has to go through a processor and a
(27:33):
translator in order for it to be displayed up on
the screen. And we're looking at it. You may not
see the glitch. It's just it's just happening so fast.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
I often make a difference.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Even with the Encore brother, I've I've given up. I've
got let's see a snap on an hotel a launch,
and I don't want to go through the list of
fourteen scan tools I've got everybody's when I want. When
I want to look at an O two like that,
I don't even use my snap on scull. I'll break
out either my one from ATS or I can't think
of the other brand that we have in house that
(28:07):
just it needs. But it's it's so rare when I
need to do that, because by now I would have
swapped you two to see the result. Because the one
hundred dollars row two centsor versus two hours of time.
You start to weigh the economics of it, and and
I get where you're going. You're afraid to touch it.
Have you tried the censor to see if it'll come out?
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Well, so when you look at it, you know there's
a drain tube for the colvent that sits right above it,
and you know we've got these Ohio winners here. I
know it's dumped a ton of salt on and it's
really rusty, and I'm afraid if it pulls the threads,
I got to take the exhaust manifold off. And if
I break getting the studs on the head, then the.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Head ass right, all of a sudden, it becomes it
becomes a Michigan.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I'm worried about it.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Do you own a but tane or propane or any
kind of torch?
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Can you get a little heat on it?
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Yeah? Well yeah, yeah. The problem is is the swing
right because I mean, there's the right I could probably
get an O two socket on it, or maybe an
open end, but the swing is only like maybe ten
or fifteen degrees.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Right, if you can get the sensor to move just
the tiniest of bit and apply a little bit of heat,
listen to what I say, and it doesn't have to
be super hot, and then get yourself a couple of crayons.
All right, Oh the wax, a high wax crayon. We
do it with crayons in the shop. It's a good show.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
And you know it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Will it will, just it'll get in there and give
it a couple of minutes to work its way through,
and it will, you know, on something super rusty. Hey listen,
I'm not gonna lie. I'd start with PB blaster, all right,
I would. I would get it to move. I would
let PB sit there and soak. I'd scrape away the
outside area of the of the flange of the O
(29:54):
two if that makes sense, as best they can with
a wire brush, and then leave some PB on it.
Let it soak, because you could just have a contaminated
or tired sensor that's creating the problem. Now, now, I
could you know where else could we go do we
have could we have Coroda chassis grounds, could we have
Coroda engine grounds. Sure we could have something affecting how
the main engine computer, the ECM itself is responding to
(30:18):
two sensor activity, but you would think that you would
see other sensors start to show that in Mode six
testing as well. Right, so, and then listen, we could
just play this out in our heads and be even
more dramatic. Do you have the one car that first
won five hundred thousand miles? But do you have the
one PCM that's only affected on the front bank O
two because there's a problem internally in the PCM. What's
(30:39):
easier to change the two or the PCM? Where are
we going to start testing and guessing you've done all
your testing. You've done it as far as you can
within the limits of your equipment and capability. At this point,
I know of no other test. We could shoot pro
pane at that sensor and I guarantee it'll hit point
nine or better. But it doesn't mean it's doing it
fast enough. Scan tool measurement because we're looking at scan
(31:03):
tool and trying to compare it to MOTE six, which
is real world, real.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Data right now? Does it help? Like it's in the
cast iron exhaust man fold? Does that help? Because I don't.
I don't think that rusts as much as the dots
that worse.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Or it could be it depends on environment. You won't
you know that? Yeah, you won't know until you try, Jeff,
And you can't. You can't hope it any better, brother.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
So yeah, I know, all right, I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I know I wish I had better answers for you,
but sometimes I got to tell you what you need
to know and not what you want to hear.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Yeah, I know, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
You're very welcome. You keep going, and you let me
know if you need more, and i'll uh, I'll take
care of you. I'll do what I can for you. Jeff,
I'm running any in the car. Doctor. We're back right
after this, Hey, and uh away we go. I'm gonna
hold Mark till the next hour, if that's okay, Tom, Tom,
shake your head yes, good, okay, and uh Mark just
sit type babe, because I don't want to. I don't
(31:57):
want to go too short on that question of yours.
I think it's important. I want to give you your
time it was a busy week in the shop. I
have to tell you we saw a variety of things
from highs to lows, and variety of product and variety
of failures. I think the thing that sticks out in
my mind the most was how things snowballed. You know,
I opened the show talking about the Honda evapp problem.
(32:19):
I didn't even tell you about the thirteen Civic that
we worked on this week. It came in for an
oil change and you could see that one of the
tires had a chunk missing out of it, that one tire,
the tire other side had a nail in it, and
all of a sudden, the right front tire had a
bowled outside edge, and all of a sudden it needed
rear brakes. And the day was over. You know, I
(32:39):
guess what I'm trying to say is pity the poor
mechanic too. We take cars in. I'm asking for a
little clemency and leniency here and understand why. Sometimes it
takes longer because we don't know what we're dealing with.
Sometimes we don't know the length of time the vehicle
needs to be in the shop because we don't know
what we're going to find. Another case, of cheap underwear
and it creeps up on you, So just be aware.
Snowballs are everywhere side of a repair shop, even in
(33:01):
the warm summer months. Till the next time. I'm ronning
Andy and the Car Doctor, and I'm reminding you good
mechanics aren't expensive, They're priceless. Really, see you
You're listening to Ron Andanian The Car Doctor, nationally recognized
auto expert trusted by Mechanics, Weekend wrenchers and vehicle owners alike.
Ron brings over forty years of hands on experience and
deep industry insight to help you understand your vehicle. Join
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(00:25):
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start your engines. The Car Doctor is in the garage
(00:47):
and ready to take your call.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I want to talk about crittersan cars. Hello and welcome.
I always love a crittersan car car repair. Is that
correct English? Yeah? Critisan car, Yeah, critician car A criticisan
car car repair. Let's dwell on that for a second. Ken,
I don't have time, Tom jelling at we have way
too many calls this hour. Criticism cars are just interesting.
(01:10):
And you know the fun part is it's it's especially
like it when you get a critician car car repair.
That's sort of like cheap underwear. It creeps up on
you when you least expect it. It just it just did.
We had this fourteen Honda Accord this week at the
shop and it had two fault codes. It had a
P twenty one five, which is a throttle blader I'm sorry,
(01:31):
a throttle actuat or control circuit fault. And it had
a peive see I think it was, or a P
fourteen fifty five manufacturer specific fault which was purge valve related.
So I have a throttle body fault and I have
a purge valve event fault. And you know they're about
(01:53):
is the opposite end of the spectrum. There's there's no
continuity between the two. When I asked the customer when
did this happen? Did they how long has the light
been on? The answer I got, oh, it just came
on the other day, which really left me scratching my head.
Now I'm questioning, and I'm still questioning. Is the customer
accurate in their in their statement? Did they not see it?
How long was it on because the two really have
(02:14):
no connection other than the fact that they're on the
same vehicle. The twenty one oh five was easy enough
that there's fault codes and or there's fault codes and
bulletins and known diagnostic routines that you go through. And
sure enough, on this one hundred and fifty five thousand
mile accord, the throttle plate was so dirty, so dirty,
lack of maintenance, and that's usually when you see the
(02:36):
throttle body fault codes, and it costs you in the
long run. That the throttle plate actually stuck in the housing.
There was such a ridge of carbon, and I get
fussy when I see that, I will take it apart.
I have to take it off, and I look at
the backside. The backside of the throttle plate had actually
way more carbon on it than the front. It was
really accumulated, and when I cleaned it there was a
(02:58):
notch in the throttle housing. That hard carbon had beat
up the aluminum and over time it had dug a
groove in the form of a ring around it. So
I replaced the throttle body. I'm not doing this three times,
and we want to get this over with and be done.
So we put a throttle body on it. It now worked,
It moves smoothly, there was no sticking, there was no
notchiness to it, and there was a reflash involved. There
(03:19):
was a reflash that had to be done. Thanks to
the folks as Opus ivs. As always, they always ride
in and help us with our reflashing. Now, because it's
gotten to be so darn expensive to have every tool.
With my Opus scantol you hear me talking about all
the time, I'm able to just dial it in and
say here, flash this and we're done. And that part
of the repair was really straightforward and clean cut. The
(03:40):
purge valve was unique, indifferent. It was a little bit
of a toughie because I was able to prove that
the purge valve itself had failed. The purge valve is
the front door. The purge valve is up front, and
you know, we put a perge valve on it, but
yet the code wouldn't go away and a deeper dive.
(04:01):
I now had a purge valve that worked right. And
the mere fact that this had multiple problems in the
EVAP system made me wonder how long has it been inactive?
The purge valve worked, but I'd still get the same fault.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
The way this fault occurs the computer turns on the
purge valve, and it doesn't know that it turned on
the perge valve. It's expected that it turned on the
purge valve. What it does is it looks at the
FTP fuel tank pressure, so suck in. If you suck
in right, that suction should create a vacuum. If you were,
(04:35):
you know, into a paper bag, you compress the bag right, Well,
the same thing is happening to the gas tank you're
sucking in. The purge event is a kind of an event,
and you would expect fuel tank pressure to get lower,
and you would see a drop in voltage, typically around
two and a half volts. You would expect to see
it go down, and it's not a huge jump. Two
(04:56):
and a half two point four five, two point four,
two point three five, et cetera. Never moved. FTP never moved,
which I thought was kind of interesting because I said, well, gee,
I didn't have a purge valve before the purge valve
wasn't working. That's why the FTP never dropped. But I
still had a non purge event, so to speak. I
(05:16):
had no FTP change do it a little bit deeper dive,
and sure enough in the back critters and cars, right
where you least expect it, where the wiring harness comes
up along the top of the frame row, where you
don't really see it until you get curious, or more
curious you find that a critter, I think a little
mouse Mickey was up there, and I see k e
(05:39):
y and he chewed through the white and red wires
that lead up to the to the vent valve. But
that won't do it either, because the vent valve is
normally open, right the event valve has to be open
when a vehicle is driving alonger, when a vehicle is
(06:00):
shut off, they would leave the vent open to let
fresh air for tank expansion so the tank doesn't overpressurize.
And when you purge, you're going to leave the vent
valve open under most conditions, certain conditions you'll close the vent.
But yet I still had no change in FTPAY. Now,
fortunately they put the fuel time pressure sensor on the
(06:20):
charcoal canister, so you know it's not often you see
this with a canister. I lowered the canister down and
I very carefully took out the FTP and of course
I fixed the wiring harness leading up to the vent valve,
and it made no differences. I would expect it not to,
but it was a legitimate you know, there's something wrong there.
(06:41):
And sure enough I found the tiniest of spider webs
inside the canister, and the canister was just filled with
I don't want to tell you a crut on radio,
but in case anybody's eating lunch. But it was just
kind of ugly and it just it was a blockage.
Put a canister in the car's fixed, and I guess
(07:04):
the adventure. And like I said, it creeps up on
your like cheap underwear is. You never know when it's
going to happen. It just you start to go through
the diagnostic routine. You take it apart, piece by piece.
You're working on that system, bad perch chewed through wiring,
animal or debris or bugs or whatever you want to
call it inside the canister. And then you come back
(07:26):
and ask yourself the question how long was it like this?
Because all of this didn't happen overnight. The wiring harness
was actually green and corroded. That doesn't happen. They told me, Well,
the light came on Tuesday. Well that doesn't happen on
Wednesday morning, that the wires are corroded like that, that
it looks like that it's getting tougher fixing cars. It
(07:47):
really is. And part of the problem is, I don't
know if people, and I'll say this gently, if vehicle
owners are aware of their vehicles or that die held
in that when they see a change of state, or
it's just the light. You know, every light's the check
engine light. You ever notice that I got a light
on my desh, Oh, it's a check engine light or
(08:09):
tire pressure monitoring system TPMs. Lights don't mean anything. They're
there to tell you it needs an oil change. You know,
there's a lot of misconception out there, and it just
proves the value of well what I've been saying for
years about educating the public. The public needs to be
educated more about their vehicles and realize the implications of
what they're creating when they ignore things but critters and cars,
(08:32):
they sure make for an interesting scenario, they really do.
And it goes on and on and on and on.
So let me pull over and take the pause. Tom's
yelling and screaming, will not yelling and scream and he's
just I can see him getting excited. But let me
let me pull over and take a pause here eight
five five five six zero nine to nine zero zero
and I'm run an enny of the car doctor. I
(08:52):
will be back right after this. Don't go away. Carl
and Maine fifteen Ford Edge. Carl, welcome to the car doctor.
Sure you're on. How can I help?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I hope you can help me. Pleasure talking with you.
I'm a Ford man. I worked at the Ford Garage
when I came out of the Navy in seventy and
worked for three or four years, and then I went
climbing poles. Different job, different life. But anyway, it's a
twenty fifteen Ford Edge. We bought it brand new. It's
only got thirty three thousand on it now and it
(09:25):
stays garaged most of the time. I don't use it much.
I still work hoot time, so they provide me with
a vehicle. That being said, the car has always been
in the in the shop, Like I said, in my garage.
The other one woke up this is actually Mother's Day,
took up my wife to the lunch with stuff in
(09:46):
the just the window or which you'd call maybe the
sun roof on the forward edge right big, that's got
a hairline crack in it, and it's spider cracked actually,
and I had them save it's been replaced. Ford replaced
it one thousand bucks. But it's not a stone bruise
or anything. I saved it just to prove it. There's
(10:07):
no there's no little binging it like you'd see like
a stone bruise or anything. It just cracked. And obviously
it's just the outside part of the glass, not the
inside as well. It's double aid. But then can't figure
out why I called a Ford talked to two different people.
(10:27):
They said, well, that's not under warranty. I said, yeah,
I understand, but we did check one line. There's several
other vehicles that the same thing that year, twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen. And I'm just wondering if Ford's got a
problem that they won't really talk about or I don't
want to do anything about. And I'll add I'll add
two that the tig goes down the road straight. So
(10:50):
I don't think I've ever talked a frame or anything
or twisted, you know, the guy's never been in an accident,
goes down the road straight. I've had it lined up
before the same tie as like at the original ties
on the Michelins. Very good, but I'm just wondering if
you've got any ideas.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You know, Carl, you explained it absolutely spot on correct.
You covered the bass, my friend, and you have valid arguments.
And as I listened to you, I said, this is
a man that has a logical sequential mind when it
comes to diagnosing a problem. Try and get your hands
(11:29):
on Ford bulletin. This is where I say the day,
try and get your I'm sorry, try and get your
hands on Ford bulletin sixteen dish double seventy nine. There's
a couple of bulletins that Ford talks about with things
like rattles and pops and taps and ticks, problems with
the B pillar related to the sun roof, and it
(11:53):
almost makes me think, you know, I remember looking at one.
I didn't see a hairline crack, but I had the
noise experience. And I wonder if I wonder if somehow
there's a problem with the top body seam at the
B pillar that's causing a distortion or pressure or something
that's affecting that sunroof. Because I agree with you, it's
if they're all doing it in the same place. It
either has to be the way the roof is assembled,
(12:15):
or it has to be the way that the sunroof
is positioned or carried in the ceiling of the vehicle
such that it's a vibration or just normal use is
going to cause that item to crack, because it shouldn't.
All right, It's it's easy enough to say, well, a
rock hit it, a tree hit it, But as you said,
(12:35):
you would see a.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Mark, yes, right, and I.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
And I think it's I think it's a pressure thing,
and I'd be willing to bet and correct me if
I'm wrong. I bet you don't use the sunroof that often,
do you.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Oh, we don't. We probably wouldn't buy one again, right,
we don't that much. But it was it came with
a vehicle, and I like the idea of it.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a sunroof guy myself, but
as you say, so many vehicles come with it.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
One of the reasons I don't like sunroofs on a
sort of the same vein but different topic, is sunroofs
are a calculated leak. Did you ever think about this
in the sense that they all have water drains and
the water drain gets clogged and then it floods the
interior of the vehicle. But what people don't realize is
if the sunroof was perfectly sealed, why would they need
(13:24):
a water drain. You're not going to have the sunroof
open when it's raining out. Okay, right, so don't I
don't like sunroofs. I don't think they're great for security.
I don't think they're great in this situation. For the
few times that you know, you use a sunroof, which
is nothing more than a vertical or i'm sorry, a
horizontal window, it gets very expensive to repair. But look
at that bulletin. You know what exactly is Ford saying?
(13:46):
They ask you in there does the vehicle have a rattle, pop,
tick noise at the top of the b pillar going
over bumps and then they go through different things with
the sunroof And is that somehow related to your condition?
And does that apply to your vehicle? I think for
Ford to say, hey, we don't have a problem, it's
not us. I think they're blowing smoke. I think they're
covering their tracks.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Okay, run, can you give me a bullet in one
more time?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
TSB sixteen dish double O seventy nine. Yep, all right,
Now it's before a certain bill date. If I remember correctly,
it's before August of twenty fifteen. So if you have
an early one, if you have an early edge. But
I would still look at it, because I've also seen
where they say before a certain date and you find
out three months later the bulletin still applies. But I
(14:33):
would start to dig and look into body bulletins and
does anything there ring a bell or correlate or make
sense to apply to that, because maybe you know, Ford
may not be aware of it. You've got to remember
Ford may not be looking back that far. The guys
at the dealership, not picking on them, but just saying,
that vehicle's nine years old, eight years old, already eight
nine years old depending on your perspective. But you know
(14:53):
that's what I'm saying. It's ten years old, right, that's
a fifteen Yeah, yeah, that vehicle's ten years old. In
their eyes, it's an old vehicle. Sure, so but that's
how I that's how I would look at that.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Okay, thank you. That will getting started and give me
a different avenue. I thought i'd be able to talk
to him tech and always talk to three different ones
and had to get finally get to a passenger car,
you know, rather than the forward pickup tech I talked to.
And the last last statement, well, it's it's not under warranty.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, you know, to a degree. We're not so interested
if it's under warranty or not. We don't want it
to happen again. Yeah, So so what aren't we fixing
that We're too lazy to walk over and start doing
a little bit of research. I can't stand on that
soapbox enough.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Carl.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Every job in the shop, and sometimes it's clear cut,
you know, check engine light stuff or abs, you know, airbags,
anti break or air bag stuff. You're always doing research.
Sometimes it's that weird noise. Sometimes it's a water leak something.
I can't tell you how many times standing in front
of the computer fifteen twenty minutes a half hour reading
trying to gather information that I, you know, need to
(16:07):
in order to give the customer a correctly repaired vehicle.
Research is an essential mandatory part of every repair every
repair shop that calls me during the week with questions
about well I started working on this car and it
does this now? Usually they dove in head first and
found out there's no water in the pool.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And you know you.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Gotta look before you leap. Brother, it's very very important.
All right, let me know what happens if you need more,
And just real quick, you've talked to Ford Corporate about this?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yes, I did, okay, and I might not. I go
to hold the right people because you don't know. I
mean being that few years I was at the Ford
dealership here in Pittsfield, Maine. They have a rep food
come in once in a while. You could talk to
him personal, face to face. Yeah, that's all gone. You know.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I saw I saw a thing real quick the other day.
Just for everybody's information in yours. They're now doing zoom
headphones where the Ford tech is wearing a zoom binocular,
so to speak, and while he's talking to the engineer,
he's looking at the problem and the engineers analyzing it,
going well, you need to do this, you need to
do that. So the days of them putting an engineer
on the spot in the dealership are probably going away,
(17:16):
if they haven't already. I appreciate it, Carl, you'd be well,
I'm running eny in the car. Doctor I'm back right
after this. Let's go over to Bill in Michigan. Keep
the phones going today. Eight five to five five six
zero nine nine zero zero again eight five to five
five six zero nine nine zero zero. Bill your own
with the card doctor. How can I help?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Thanks? Ron granddaughter has a two thousand and nine Chevrolet
and Paalo with one hundred and twenty thousand miles. I'm
looking for some diagnostic direction here. When the ambient air
temperature is above seventy degrees intermittently, some of the power
locks will not lock or unlock with the keyfob. I
have two different key fobs. I've tried them both. Nothing changes,
(17:58):
there's no pattern. The right rear door is the most
frequent offender. When you put the car and drive, all
the locks activate correctly. I've had no accidents and there's
no codes in the BCM, so.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's it's it's only when temperature gets above a certain point,
correct Have you disconnected the actuators and placed the ball
across them? Have not?
Speaker 4 (18:19):
That's kind of my next step. Corrosion is maybe what
I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I'm thinking maybe corrosion. Maybe we've got broken wires and
we're down to a couple of strands, although they do
work in when you go from park to drive, it
should be signaled on the same wires. But I'm wondering
if do we have a problem with the connection at
the actuator. But that wouldn't make sense because it still
wouldn't work when you put it in drive. So I've
got to come back to is it the actuator itself?
(18:44):
Just because just because it's certain ones, it's not all
of them. It's one or two, correct, right? I think
the next step is to eliminate and you know, is
it is it? Is it able to produce it and
handle the load? So I'm for a small ball across
the actual itself and see if that makes it work.
And if that doesn't make it work, then we're going
to go back and start to look at how the
(19:05):
system operates, start looking at connections, resistance, that kind of thing,
broken wires. Although I can't find I can't see where
that diagnosis holds water at this point, I'd have to
do some other testing. But you know, it may be
as simple as just tired actuators.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
That's kind of what I'm leaning towards, but again, I
won't go there until I run the rest of this test.
Those locks do not have to be programmed, I might correct.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No, I don't believe they do. It should be a
straight plug and play type of operation.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Okay. Second question, I've got a ninety four Chevrolet truck
that I'm in the final stages of a restoration. It's
an all stock truck. There's no modifications whatsoever. Have a
radio frequency interference problem which I had prior to the restoration.
That's only on AM. The FM is okay. As part
of the restoration, I change the original antenna and the
(19:54):
mass the cable between the antenna lead and the radio
is still the same. Change in the condition. I then
remove a serpentine belt to eliminate the alternator. That did nothing.
I grounded the antenna directly to the battery and had
no change. The only thing I haven't done is sprayed
the ignition system with water. Is there anything else I
should be looking at?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Why can't we have a bad radio?
Speaker 4 (20:17):
That's a good question. Ron, it's only thirty years old, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Mean white white Why can't we have a bad radio?
I think? I think the next step I'm going to
tell you is do you have a you know, like
a GM electronics repair facility that they can at least
run it through and put it through their standards.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And you know that's a great idea. Yes, we have
several in my area. I'm not too far from the
GM proven grounds. There are a lot of folks around here.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And just see, could we just have a bad radio?
I know, for example, well my O four suburban that
you guys hear me talk about forever and ever and
the AM radio is starting to get a little wonky.
And I that's next on my list because I've done
everything that you've done. And you know, the funny thing
is now on my truck, I don't have any static.
I have the same static whether the vehicle is running
(21:02):
or not, so I know it's componentry is does your
truck run yet?
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's a it's an on the road vehicle.
I'm in, Like I say, the final stages. This is
like your MONDI Carlo came out of Texas, right, had
a blessing run to not have to deal with RUSS.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Oh my god, you know it's it's it's Texas has
the best place for cars. It's it's really great. But
does the is the noise worse when it's running, or
it's the same whether the vehicle's on or off.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
It's the same, whether it's the same when it's running,
when it's off, I have no noise at all. So
it's got to be something in the ignition I'm speculating the.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Radio or or is it the radio that it doesn't
have the ability to resist electrical noise from the rest
of the vehicle. So is there a problem with it?
Let me just jump here for a second. Let me
go to my radio department. Hang on a minute, Tom
is I think? I think Tom, because Tom, I know
Tom will have some input here. He's my head engineer,
and he's also got a great idea. Is when it
comes to car radios. Tom is he busy? Tom's busy
(21:55):
on the phone. I don't think I can get to
him and Tom, Tom, are you yeah? No, let's see here. Yeah, Tom,
did you hear Bill's call?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I did one of the things I do.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I mean, I know you said that you that you
grounded the antenna directly to the battery. Make sure that
the area where the antenna attaches to the fender there
or whatever it's attached to, is not painted. It's clean,
it's not rusty.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah, I did that.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Okay did did?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Did?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
You? You said you had the it's it's the original
cable that's in there.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Uh. The antenna lead is a replacement. The original cable
from the antenna lead to the radio is an original cable.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, Uh, you may you may want to consider replacing
that because coaxial cable, which is what that is, uh,
tends to dry out and the internal the braid around
the outside which is the ground, will tend to fail.
And you also may just want to check where the
(22:59):
radio is ground. Didn't make sure those grounds are correct,
but I would tend to agree with Ron. It's most
likely the age of the radio and the radio has
probably got a problem.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You guys are awesome. I appreciate it special thanks to
you as well as Ron for having me on and
great information. I will follow those directions.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
You're very welcome, Bill, you'd be well always always glad
to do it. You know, it's and you got to
have a good radio. I'll tell you what in the
vehicle today. Wow, it's just it's just super important. Let's
go to Jeff in Cleveland real quick before the pause
and see what's going on here. Jeff you're on with
the car doctor. How can I help?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
But hey, thank thanks for taking my call. Hey, I
going to want to get to your opinion and thoughts
on I have an two Saturn view. It's got five
hundred and eight thousand on it.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Wait for it, wait a minute, just broken in. Go ahead, brother,
don't tell anybody, they probably want that one back. So,
and what's going on with it?
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Well, so, I want to ask you about the front
O two sensor. It is the original two sensor in
the car, and I've been watching it on you know,
the skiing tool. If you grab the front sensor versus
the rear, you know, the front, you get real good
wave pattern out of it. You know, it goes below
point one volt above point nine, it switches real fast
the rear sensor. You know, I get real good flatline
(24:11):
on It's. The issue I'm having is if you dig
into the Mode six data on the front sensor, it's
it runs six tests on the front sensor. It does
the threshold volts voltage you know, between rich and lean
lean to rich it's around point five. Then it does
the you know how hot does it go? High?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Low?
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Low? Does it go? It needs to be above point
six three volts in below point three, and it's doing that,
and then it does a lean to ridge tests and
it does the time right, and it's it's doing the
lean to rich test. Fine, it's the thresholds like point
one four and it's hitting around point zero six. So
that's fine. That The issue I'm having is on the
(24:53):
Rich to lean Normally it'll run around point eight to
point one and it's suppose to be below point four.
So it's passing all the time, except if it runs
when it's on the highway going above sixty five and
above like fifty percent calculated load. If it runs, then
it's failing. And it's pending a one thirty three code
(25:16):
in the values coming up at point one four four
versus point one four zero, So it's you're barely failing.
And I know what you're thinking, just replace it. Actually,
I'm just afraid to touch it because it's been in
the original sensor.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Actually I'm not thinking just replace it. What I was
gonna do, I'll tell you what. Sit tight and let
me pull over. Take this pause, Well, leave everybody in suspense,
but I have an answer for you in a direction.
Let's see if we can take you there. I'm running
Enny in the car. Doctor. We'll return right after this.
Let's get back to Jeff in Cleveland. Jeff, you're still there.
(25:52):
The answered I failed to ask. Is this a four
cylinder or six cylinder set or four cylinder.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
In the fourth cylinder?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, so you know, And let me tell you your
your diagnosis and the way you're analyzing this is spot on.
I can really appreciate what you're doing the use of
Mode six. There is exactly how you're supposed to use it.
What sort of scan tool are you using?
Speaker 5 (26:13):
It's a Nova of fifty.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, if you had the top of the line scan tool,
a snap on or an hotel or a launch or whoever.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
All right, I do have an encore, all.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right, any scan tool to do to use oxygen sensor analysis, graphing,
and to show how well it's performing, okay, compared to
what Mode six actually is. You're not going to like
this answer is like is like comparing the Right Brothers
to the Space Shuttle. It just it just doesn't work.
(26:47):
The only accurate way to test those two sensors in
the field. And I'm told by engineers and teachers, educators
and all the classes I go to that sit there,
and you know they walk, talk and read this twenty
four to seven. Tell me that even lapscopes have a
hard time measuring and showing the true potential of what
an oxygen sensor is doing. So you know you're doing
(27:11):
it right. You've just reached the limit of what you're tooling.
Will tell you you're using mode six, which you're looking at
computer results, right, be fair. The computer's showing you it's
test results, but you're using a scan tool to compare
the So that scan tool is buffer data. It's it
just it has to go through a processor and a
(27:33):
translator in order for it to be displayed up on
the screen. And we're looking at it. You may not
see the glitch. It's just it's just happening so fast.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
I often make a difference.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Even with the Encore brother, I've I've given up. I've
got let's see a snap on an hotel a launch,
and I don't want to go through the list of
fourteen scan tools I've got everybody's when I want. When
I want to look at an O two like that,
I don't even use my snap on scull. I'll break
out either my one from ATS or I can't think
of the other brand that we have in house that
(28:07):
just it needs. But it's it's so rare when I
need to do that, because by now I would have
swapped you two to see the result. Because the one
hundred dollars row two centsor versus two hours of time.
You start to weigh the economics of it, and and
I get where you're going. You're afraid to touch it.
Have you tried the censor to see if it'll come out?
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Well, so when you look at it, you know there's
a drain tube for the colvent that sits right above it,
and you know we've got these Ohio winners here. I
know it's dumped a ton of salt on and it's
really rusty, and I'm afraid if it pulls the threads,
I got to take the exhaust manifold off. And if
I break getting the studs on the head, then the.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Head ass right, all of a sudden, it becomes it
becomes a Michigan.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I'm worried about it.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Do you own a but tane or propane or any
kind of torch?
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Can you get a little heat on it?
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Yeah? Well yeah, yeah. The problem is is the swing
right because I mean, there's the right I could probably
get an O two socket on it, or maybe an
open end, but the swing is only like maybe ten
or fifteen degrees.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Right, if you can get the sensor to move just
the tiniest of bit and apply a little bit of heat,
listen to what I say, and it doesn't have to
be super hot, and then get yourself a couple of crayons.
All right, Oh the wax, a high wax crayon. We
do it with crayons in the shop. It's a good show.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
And you know it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Will it will, just it'll get in there and give
it a couple of minutes to work its way through,
and it will, you know, on something super rusty. Hey listen,
I'm not gonna lie. I'd start with PB blaster, all right,
I would. I would get it to move. I would
let PB sit there and soak. I'd scrape away the
outside area of the of the flange of the O
(29:54):
two if that makes sense, as best they can with
a wire brush, and then leave some PB on it.
Let it soak, because you could just have a contaminated
or tired sensor that's creating the problem. Now, now, I
could you know where else could we go do we
have could we have Coroda chassis grounds, could we have
Coroda engine grounds. Sure we could have something affecting how
the main engine computer, the ECM itself is responding to
(30:18):
two sensor activity, but you would think that you would
see other sensors start to show that in Mode six
testing as well. Right, so, and then listen, we could
just play this out in our heads and be even
more dramatic. Do you have the one car that first
won five hundred thousand miles? But do you have the
one PCM that's only affected on the front bank O
two because there's a problem internally in the PCM. What's
(30:39):
easier to change the two or the PCM? Where are
we going to start testing and guessing you've done all
your testing. You've done it as far as you can
within the limits of your equipment and capability. At this point,
I know of no other test. We could shoot pro
pane at that sensor and I guarantee it'll hit point
nine or better. But it doesn't mean it's doing it
fast enough. Scan tool measurement because we're looking at scan
(31:03):
tool and trying to compare it to MOTE six, which
is real world, real.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Data right now? Does it help? Like it's in the
cast iron exhaust man fold? Does that help? Because I don't.
I don't think that rusts as much as the dots
that worse.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Or it could be it depends on environment. You won't
you know that? Yeah, you won't know until you try, Jeff,
And you can't. You can't hope it any better, brother.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
So yeah, I know, all right, I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I know I wish I had better answers for you,
but sometimes I got to tell you what you need
to know and not what you want to hear.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Yeah, I know, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
You're very welcome. You keep going, and you let me
know if you need more, and i'll uh, I'll take
care of you. I'll do what I can for you. Jeff,
I'm running any in the car. Doctor. We're back right
after this, Hey, and uh away we go. I'm gonna
hold Mark till the next hour, if that's okay, Tom, Tom,
shake your head yes, good, okay, and uh Mark just
sit type babe, because I don't want to. I don't
(31:57):
want to go too short on that question of yours.
I think it's important. I want to give you your
time it was a busy week in the shop. I
have to tell you we saw a variety of things
from highs to lows, and variety of product and variety
of failures. I think the thing that sticks out in
my mind the most was how things snowballed. You know,
I opened the show talking about the Honda evapp problem.
(32:19):
I didn't even tell you about the thirteen Civic that
we worked on this week. It came in for an
oil change and you could see that one of the
tires had a chunk missing out of it, that one tire,
the tire other side had a nail in it, and
all of a sudden, the right front tire had a
bowled outside edge, and all of a sudden it needed
rear brakes. And the day was over. You know, I
(32:39):
guess what I'm trying to say is pity the poor
mechanic too. We take cars in. I'm asking for a
little clemency and leniency here and understand why. Sometimes it
takes longer because we don't know what we're dealing with.
Sometimes we don't know the length of time the vehicle
needs to be in the shop because we don't know
what we're going to find. Another case, of cheap underwear
and it creeps up on you, So just be aware.
Snowballs are everywhere side of a repair shop, even in
(33:01):
the warm summer months. Till the next time. I'm ronning
Andy and the Car Doctor, and I'm reminding you good
mechanics aren't expensive, They're priceless. Really, see you
Host
Ron Ananian
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