September 21, 2023 • 47 mins
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FM
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Everybody is DJ Envy Charlamagne the guy. We are the
Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building
this morning. Yes, indeed we have Miss Elaine well to
Roth Welcome, Hi guys this morning.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I'm good.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
How are you good?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Goods Black and Holly favorite.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
I'm just really taking in this whole chair, the throne
that you're sitting, that the two of you are sitting on.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Met I didn't get a throne. Where's my throne?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We got it.
Speaker 6 (00:29):
We're thinking of something for the guests in twenty twenty
four to make them because we're all regal, right, but
this is really just for television, right ron.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
BT and for the Internet and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (00:38):
And then when we add the new third person, they'll
have a thron So we're gonna have a whole watch
the Throne campaign.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Okay, but we have to figure it out because the
thrones will be too high to block the cameras, which
you didn't think about beforehand, so it's gonna be a
cluster f You're gonna figure it out.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Get came.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
So now you're here for a conversation project.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, Stations Project.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Yep, Now what is the Conversation Project?
Speaker 5 (01:01):
So the Conversations Project, which is on Hulu is basically
so it's inspired by the Harlem Renaissance Salon. It's like,
you know, think back to the era when you know,
black intellectuals, academics, entertainers would rub shoulders and break bread
and and share ideas in a safe space. And we
(01:21):
wanted to recreate that on television. And it's it's really incredible.
It's it's bringing together some of the greatest minds in
our culture from every corner of the world. So you
have you have artists, you have entertainers, you have we
had a black astronaut all coming together to really exchange ideas,
(01:43):
and you know, you don't have anything like this on television,
which is kind of crazy when you really think about it,
It's like, how has it taken this long for a
show like this to come about?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
But I'm so glad that it did.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And we just talk about everything under the sun that
affects our community, and we talk about it through a
black lens, and we debate, we laugh, we you know,
we agree, we challenge each other, and it's really intergenerational.
It's just a really positive, nuanced place to have conversations
(02:17):
that matter in our culture.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I feel like it's very all of it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (02:20):
I feel like it's very hard for us to have
conversations nowadays. I feel like we're all talking at each
other instead of tune with each other that part.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And that's why I think a show like this is
so important, because it's modeling how to have productive, constructive dialogue,
how to listen, how to not react, you know, defensively.
It's really important, I think, especially in these times that
are so divided, it's so divisive, to really give people
(02:50):
an example of how you can articulate your point of
view and also appreciate and listen to somebody else's point
of view and maybe even evolve, you know, maybe even
maybe your maybe your perspective might evolve in the process.
So I think a show like this is so important.
And for me, I always, whether I'm writing books or
(03:10):
on television, I want to create what I think the
world needs more of. And I think the world needs
more of hard converse examples of hard conversations that are
being tackled in a really constructive way.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
I love that because I feel like, you know, over
the last several years, we've seen all of these, you know,
topics that we never discussed come to the forefront, but
we're still not having nuanced conversations about them.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
We're not peeling back layers.
Speaker 6 (03:35):
We're just telling you your trash if you believe this,
your trash if you don't think like this.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But it's just like, yo, where's the exchange of ideas?
Speaker 6 (03:42):
So those people that you may not like the way
they think about a certain thing, they might evolve on
the subject if you just have a conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Exactly and you might evolve.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
I think that's the that's the thing, is to come
to the table with an open mind and be willing
to listen. I learned my mind was open, you know.
I came with an open mind and open heart. I
think everybody did. And you know what helped. I forgot
to mention this. I can't believe I forgot to mention this.
It's a dinner party. So you have like Michelin Star,
you know, a Michelin Star chef who is giving us
(04:13):
incredible food and black owned wines, and we are just
like so I feel like everybody came in like maybe
a little.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Nervous, like was about to happen at the table. They
gonna there's.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Gonna be there, gonna be some gotcha questions, and then
everyone just realized this is actually a safe space. Sip
some wine, you know, you relax your nerves, you know,
settle a little. And we really we came to the table,
many of us strangers, and we walked away feeling like
we had extended community. We like like a family, honestly.
(04:45):
So it was it was beautiful, and I hope, I
honestly hope that it inspires people to have some of
these conversations at their own dinner table with their own friends,
at their work, at their church, Like whatever the community
is that you are a part of, this is how
you can have these conversations and also invite people over
to your house. Again, Like we've all been in isolation
(05:06):
for so long, and we thrive in community, you know,
but it takes somebody to be intentional about curating the
right group, about sending that invitation, bringing people to creating
a safe space and really guiding the conversation. So I
really hope that like this is like the return of
the dinner party.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
You know, who are some of the people that are
I know, every episode is a different cast. Who are
some of the people that are at the table.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Yeah, we had a whole wide range of people, like
I said, from black astronauts to entertainers to authors, athletes.
So we had a couple of people we had that
I really love Phoebe Robinson, She's hilarious, Shine Jim Jones,
Ali Love roy Wood, Junior Tory Notton, Torri Notton, she
(05:52):
was amazing. Yes, Lena Bloom And so the hosts were
the three hosts. One is the chef, David Lawrence. He
has a restaurant in the Bay Area, but he's originally
from the UK and he's a.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Little bit older. I call him uncle.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And then we have Mark Spears who is at ESPN
and Landscape. He's a Hall of Fame sports writer. And
they conceived of this show, they pitched it, they got
it sold, which is a miracle to me in this landscape,
especially for a black show, bringing together black folks to
have black conversations that are you know, smart, intellectual and
(06:35):
not trash, Like We're not sitting there trying to trash
each other, which is usually what you see get sold.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And then they brought me on.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
They wanted to have a woman's perspective at the table,
someone who could help bridge the generations. And I immediately,
I mean, once I understood the concept of the show,
the spirit of the show, the intention of the show
is like, sign me up, this is a dinner party.
I feel like anybody would want to be invited to.
So it was an honor to be a part of it.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
How did you pick the people you wanted to have
a conversation because you know, when you talk about curating
right people, even when you say let's bring back the
dinner party, I'm just not letting nobody in my house.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Your energy gotta be right.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Your energy got to be right. That's the part I think.
I think we all just kind of agreed. We we
all brought our lists, and we all kind of thought,
we want to make sure every single table is really intergenerational.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So that was a really important piece.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
We wanted to make sure that it was co ed,
so there was a nice mix of you know, men
and women, and that everyone was represented, so trans folks,
queer folks.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You know.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I think the beauty of this show is that it
showcases the spectrum of blackness, right, Like we talk about
what it means to be black and queer black and
trans to what it's like to we talk about the
biracial experience and everything in between. We got, you know,
old elders in the room, we got the young folks
in the room, we got the millennials. And what you
(07:51):
see is that which it just reminds you that blackness
is not a monolith. We come from all different places
all over the world with different personspectives, and it really
it shapes our worldview. But when we break bread with
each other, when we break down these conversations together, we
realize how much more we have in common then than
what divides us.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
Yeah, what about the titles of the show, like, like
those are the conversation starters within themselves?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Like what it's called We Him is one episode called.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
I Didn't Name, I Didn't Name? Did you guys? Have
you guys seen any of them?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
If you have not seen them, it's a six episode series.
It's totally bingeable. You once you watch one episode, you
will naturally want to just keep going. And I've gotten
such great feedback from everyone that you know, they're excited
to see black folks coming together to have these rich conversations,
these intergenerational conversations. Especially in a time like this, Like, honestly, guys,
(08:49):
it's dark times out there, absolutely, and we need something
that is feel good, that makes us think, that opens
our mind. And I think this show is exactly that.
And I hope we get to do it again and again,
and I hope we can bring y'all to the table
next season.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
What's one conversation that stood out the most to you
that that you remember. That's something that she was like, Wow,
this is going to spark a lot of conversation and
interest when this episode's released, So when people see this episode.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, So two come to mind.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
One is a conversation with Brett Gray, who's this gen
Z actor, and he brought such an incredible energy to
the table, and he got into a kind of a
contentious conversation with the older gentleman at the table, who
we were calling them ogs, so David Lawrence, Mark Spears.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
They were talking.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
About sort of how this older generation we're talking about
black manhood and and toxic masculinity, and how the older
generation of black men in us, with the intention of
trying to protect and guide the next generation of black men,
(10:00):
sometimes their way can crush the spirit of this younger generation.
That aren't as oppressed, that aren't as you know, they aren't,
they aren't facing they're living in a completely different world.
And and so how can you prepare the next generation
of black men to navigate the world as black men
(10:22):
when they're in a completely different world than you came from.
And so he's sitting there with his like fly like
denim jacket on. It's sparkly, he's got sequins, and he's like,
to be honest, I think that when you don't want
us to sparkle, when we sparkle, it makes you uncomfortable.
You put us in such a rigid box of what
(10:43):
it means to be a black man. And and and frankly,
I don't identify with that. I'm more than that. I
want to be more than that, but you put me
in the box and you actually make me feel more
oppressed than than than the world. And so it was
like this really intense moment where you just know, like
this is a moment that is so powerful that people
(11:07):
need to see. And I hope that it really sparks
some debate. Not some debate, but I really hope it
sparks kind of introspective conversations between black men of different generations,
and you know, it was beautiful. Is I feel like
there's a lot of conversation about women, which is important.
We've made a lot of you know that that's been
(11:28):
very intentional on media to focus more on the women's gaze,
but there's so much ground that we don't cover when
it comes to black malehood manhood.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
And so it felt.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Nice for a moment to just sit back and know that, like,
this is not for me to participate in.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
This is for me to listen and.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Learn and and appreciate the way these black men are
navigating this conversation. And you could see the ogs, you know,
they're not they came from a different generations where generation
where young people you know, you're supposed to stay in
your place to speak when you're spoken to, you respect
your authority and your your elders, and you don't take
a certain tone. And and Brett was coming in there
(12:09):
just speaking his mind. He was very strong with it,
and you could tell the ogs were getting a little
like okay, now, young brother, okay, like you don't have
to you.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Know, like but they they really they they I was.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
So proud of them in that moment because they listened
and they there was a breakthrough I think for everybody
in that room, and they made it clear, like listen,
they apologize on behalf of kind of like this generation
of black men for breaking their spirit and and and
clarified that our intention is to protect you and to
(12:44):
help you navigate this world in ways that we didn't
We didn't have male guidance in this way. And so
while our way might not be perfect, know that it
comes from love. And I just felt like it was
a really kind of beautiful, heartwarming moment and.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
That's something I learned it therapy or like, you know,
I think that our father, or at least my father, I
can't generalize, but my father, I think he was raising
me out of fear, not necessarily love, because he was
just afraid for me in this world as a black man.
He didn't want me to make the same mistakes that
he made as a man. But all he did was
(13:19):
still that same fear exactly inside of me. So it
kept a generational trauma going, you know, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
But he also raised you from the side of the
Times were different, you know, I mean, I mean, racism
is still big now, but it was ten times worse
back then, where my dad tells me stories where he
couldn't go to certain bathrooms, he couldn't drink out of
certain water fountains, where he looks at white people a
lot different than we do because when he was a kid,
he could never trust him because it was always them versus.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah, that's how my dad kind of raised me. But
for us, my dad.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Was my dad was afraid that I was gonna turn
out like him in a lot of ways, even though
you know, he had his good side, you know, but
he had battled substance abuse, and he was in the
street and stuff like that. But I think he was
more afraid of how if I went on that path.
He knew the white man had a plan for me,
which is frizy. So I think that's what that's what,
That's what it was. I remember my first breakthrough in
(14:09):
therapy was realizing, like, damn, my dad. My dad used
to punish me for things he never taught me. So
he would discipline me for things that you never even
taught me. You told me to follow your lead in
a lot of ways, and then when I did, I
would get.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Punished for it.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
And you know, I think part of part of this
conversation is how does a generation of black men who
didn't have black fathers in the household, or whose fathers
were really challenged by outside factors related to racism, you know,
and and so that that debilitated their ability to be
(14:47):
a good dad, Like, how does that generation of fatherless
black men turn around and figure out how to be
great dads to the next generation when they didn't have
a model for that, And so of course they're going
to make mistakes. And I think the important thing is
now to have dialogue about, you know, how the next
generation can do it differently and what they can learn
(15:09):
in the process. And and even like Chef David, you know,
he's he has a son, a grown child, and he
kind of he had some reflective moments where he said
he could have done some things differently. And I think
that it might have led to some offline conversations that
that were really healthy and really necessary. And I really
hope that that's the that's the result of this show,
(15:33):
And for viewers who are watching, you know what I mean,
I hope it. I hope it triggers some conversations that
are maybe overdue in our community.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
And you know what else too, It's like it's not
even about what we what we uh, it's about what
we learned, but what we got to unlearned as we
get older, because you know, I'll be the first to
admit we were a whole generation that was raised wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know. I mean I'm raised wrong in a lot
of ways, you know. So it's like, yeah, it's about
what you have to and learnt.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Yeah, and you know, I'm a new mom. I just
had a baby seventeen months ago, thank you. So I
felt like I was there listening more than I talk
on topics around parenthood. And you know, Roxane Chante came on,
and you know, she was one of the sort of
our elders.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
We respect her.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
And she was talking about, you know, parenting as a
black mom, especially a single black mom, how parenting a
young black man is different from parenting a young woman.
And I really leaned in because I was like, because
I'm a boy mom.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
And she talked about how.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
There is this tendency in our culture for black moms
to kind of overly caddle black men, which is again
coming from a spirit of love and protection because they
know how harsh this world is on black men. But
in the end, sometimes the outcome is that these men
are not they're not getting the tools that they need
(17:01):
to be men in the world, and they're being coddled
to the point of you know, they're they're not standing
on their own two feet, and so you so there
was this conversation about this generation, this generation of black
men who were raised by mothers that were coddling them
a little too much, and what is that impact on
families black, the black family in this generation. So that's
(17:23):
something I hadn't really thought a lot about, and so
I feel like I learned a lot. You know, normally
you come into conversations, you feel like you have your
talking pointspecially as a journalist like I. I listened and
I learned. And another another really standout moment for me
was Lena Bloom came on. She's a beautiful transactivist and model,
(17:43):
so eloquent. I really encourage you guys to listen to
to watch that episode.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But she sort of.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Challenged the room. She looked around and she said, how
many trans people have you ever invited to dinner or
into your home? And the whole table went silent, and
she really made a compelling case for why we as
a culture, as a community, really need to open our
(18:11):
minds and open our hearts, and and you know, even
if you do not understand the trans experience, it it
is your job to protect and to love your your
sister and your brother, your sisters and your brothers in
the trans community, and that we failed them essentially. And
I was really again, I was really proud of the
(18:32):
room for holding space for that difficult conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And I think we really hurt her. We really hurt her.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
And and I hope that especially for the older heads,
this is a conversation that's a little bit new. It's
newer for the older heads in the space. I think
it changed some of their perspectives.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, you had your child at home?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I think I read that I did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Ye, I had a home I had a home birth
with a with a midwife.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
Is it because of all the things that are going
on in the hospitals and the way the black maternal
death rate is you just didn't trust it.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's also during the pandemic COVID right seventeen months ago? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
No? No, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I mean, are we still dependent? I don't know.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
I don't know what stage we are, but I mean, well, listen,
I got married at home, am I stooped during the
pandemic and I had my baby at home. I don't
know what stage of the pandemic it was, but yes,
it was because you know, I went into pregnancy thinking
that I was going to have a hospital birth, just
like you know, my mother did and my grandmother did.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
That's the norm in our country. But and I sort
of knew.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
About the maternal mortality crisis, and the black maternal mortality crisis,
like in a peripheral sense, like it's something that happens
out there in the world, but maybe not as much here.
I think I bought into this myth that it also,
you know, tends to happen only in impoverished communities, and
so here I am as this, you know, as as
(20:02):
black women go in this country, I am.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I have all the privileges you could have.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
So I thought I wouldn't have a problem having my
baby in the hospital, finding a great doctor, finding great care.
And I was so shocked to learn how difficult it
is to find a healthcare provider in our current medical
system that makes you feel safe, that makes you feel
listened to, that makes you feel like you know they
(20:29):
there's a compassionate person that's going to make sure that
you have the.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Birth that you want.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
I'm based out of LA and so I went through
from doctor to doctor to doctor, and this is me.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I am, like, you know, I'm I'm pretty well connected.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
I got resources, I could go to the best of
the best, and I had bad experience after bad experience
after bad experience. It was so incredibly humbling, and it
it was the first time where I had to really
confront the fear that I could very well become another
(21:07):
statistic And what I learned as I went through this
journey is that this issue is so complex. It is
this crisis, this maternal mortality crisis that you know that
overly impacts black women, is very real, and unfortunately, the
(21:30):
rates of death are actually surging. It's really scary, and
I think when you talk about it with folks, I
think people still have there's this concept, this misconception that
this isn't happening in this country, that this isn't happening
to people who look like me or come from where
I come from. You know, it's not happening to well
educated black women of means.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It absolutely is.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And as I've gotten deeper into this work and into
the stats, I realized that black women, black wealthy women
are dying at higher rates than poor white women in
this country during and after childbirth. So when you understand
like truly, where where, what the picture is, how how
(22:17):
prevalent this issue is in our country and the richest
country in the world, you start to you start to
think about what informs your your point of view on
what a safe where a safe birth happens, and and
who's delivering your baby and why these messages are what
you believe, you know, And so I thought, you know,
(22:37):
I always thought like, oh, to be safe, I should
have you know, I've heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Home births, I've heard of midwives.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Sounds beautiful, God bless but to be safe air quotes,
I'm going to have my baby in a hospital. But
is it truly safer to have your baby in a
hospital when you're a black woman in America? You have
to really, you have to unpack that. And so I
decided to have my baby outside of the hospital. Really
because it was the place that I found the best care.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's as simple as that.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
I am so lucky that I found black midwives, Kimberly
Dirden and a Lager Hill. They owned the only black
owned birthing center in all of southern California, which is wild.
Wouldn't you think that there would be plenty of birthing
centers and black midwives there, But it's still it's you know,
it's a bit of a desert as it relates to
(23:28):
this kind of maternal care. But these women were like angels.
They were truly like they're unsung midwives and doulas are
unsung heroes in our communities. And they came in and
completely changed the trajectory of my pregnancy and really opened
my mind, opened my eyes to this crisis. And and
(23:52):
I feel compelled now to do something about it. And
I will say I think we I had a beautiful birth,
I had a sacred birth. I felt so safe and
cared for. And I feel like we need to share
more positive birthing stories with black women, from black women.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Explaining the process.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Because we've had Thomas time me and my wife several times.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Thomas is your wife pregnant?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Well, we had our last two. Latham was our dula
for our last two.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
She what Latham is incredible. Latham is like also another
unsung hero.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Oh man, She's She's several times so explain the process,
because I think what most women think when when you
think of home, you think of pain, right, And I
think a lot of people go to the hospital for
that epidoro. They go to the hospital make sure that
if there's any complications, especially with the baby, that.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
The doctor can can take care. So just you know, explain.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I have six but all out of hospital, all hospital,
all hospital, and my wife who all hospital. But break
down the process of the experience so women listening don't
get frightened, because if I'm listening, I would get frighten. Now,
all I'm thinking about is pain, I'm thinking about what happens,
I'm thinking blind, I'm thinking a whole lot.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
So break gone a process.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked this, because we need
to reframe pain for birthing people. I too, was so
incredibly scared of not having access to an epidural. Like
even when I found my midwife, I fell in love
with her. I was like, I would love for you
to birth my baby.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
But can we just have an epidural just in case?
Could it just be there? And She's like, kind of
like the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
You can't have an epidural for a home birth, and
that was the thing that made it. It was like
the hardest part for me to overcome is like what
if I can't handle the pain correct? And I actually
did not decide to have a home birth until thirty six,
thirty six or thirty seven weeks. It was like go time,
(25:47):
and I still was like, you know, dating doctors and
tiptoeing like that line. And ultimately I made the call
because I was able to shift my mindset around pain,
and I did that with the support and the guidance
of my midwife. She talks about pain, the pain of
(26:09):
childbirth as purposeful as directional, and she doesn't even use
the word pain. She used the word She uses the
word waves. She uses the word words like intensity. And
she made it clear to me that your body has
been preparing for this since the day you started your period.
Those cramps that you feel, that discomfort that you feel,
(26:31):
is the exact pain that you will feel as labor starts.
So it's not an unfamiliar pain like I thought I
was going to be, like, like it's gonna feel.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Like knives in my Please make it seem like it is.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Absolutely horror horrifying, like the movies and everything we've ever
seen about birth is all inspiring fear. None of it
is inspiring self trust and what a midwife does and
what my wife did is completely she gave my power
back to me. I feel like we have been trained
as a culture, conditioned as a culture to give our
(27:07):
power away as women, as black women, as birthing people.
We give our power away to these authorities in white
lab coats that often undermine our intelligence, that often gaslight us,
that take advantage of the power that we give away.
We're not taught about our bodies. We're not taught about
what we were built to do. We're not taught about
(27:29):
how babies have been getting here since the beginning of time,
which was not in a hospital, right. We're not taught
about how the obe opstroenetics came about and that it
was set up to as a business that prioritizes profit
over patients. We're not taught this. Once you learn just
how systemic and complex this issue is, you start to
(27:52):
realize that, like you need to, there's a lot of
unlearning that we have to do. And I was so
grateful that like this woman, this midwife, the way she
talked about birth was like pleasurable and I was like, Oh,
iing this. I know she's crazy. She's crazy. Is she
talking about birth like it's a pleasurable experience? But y'all,
when I tell you, and God as my witness, my
(28:12):
husband as my witness, my midwife as my witness, delivering
my child at home in an unmedicated birth was the
single most empowering experience of my life.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
It was.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
It was transformative. It was oh my gosh, I'm getting emotional.
It was spiritual. It was beautiful, like the pain was
so secondary to the downloads that I got spiritually, to
the access to my power that was unlocked for me.
(28:49):
It was absolutely beautiful. And I just wish that more
women were told, you were built for this. You can
more than handle this. You will. You will not just survive,
you can thrive through your birth. And so this is
not to demonize you know, the epidural. Listen girl, if
you want to go epidural, get the epidural, press the button,
go for If you want to have a hospital, girl,
(29:09):
do that. But make sure that you feel comfortable and
safe and seen by your healthcare provider, because too many
of us are dying in the hospital system. And if
you are not finding the healthcare that you deserve that
you need. Look outside, look into alternatives, look into other options.
Other options are available, and you can have a beautiful,
(29:31):
safe birth experience outside of the hospital system.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Let me ask you one more question, right, you said, well.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
You guys got me emotional. I didn't expect to go
there today.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It was real conversation because there's a lot of women
out there that need this information. Now, you said it
thirty six weeks that you will still quote unquote dating doctors.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I could be wrong, but I thought your gynacologist is
the one that usually delivers your doctor, and that gynecologe
is somebody that you've been with for a long time
and trust.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Is that not the because I have six kids?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right?
Speaker 4 (30:01):
So the first the first delivery, Madison effed up gynecologists.
It was like a dating the doctor type of thing.
My wife went to somebody was horrible, bad experience. My
wife almost passed. She had one hundred and four temperature
for three or four days. It was very, very bad.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
We moved to Jersey and she got a gynecologist, minority
woman that we trusted. Delivered out other five babies no problems,
but that woman was somebody that we trusted. If my
wife said there was a problem, she dropped what she
did to get to that hospital she believed she trusted.
So when you said data doctors don't most people use
their gynecologists to deliver their baby. So with somebody that
(30:40):
they see that knows them, that they trust or is
that not true?
Speaker 6 (30:43):
No?
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Absolutely, that's the ideal scenario, right. But you have to
understand we were, first of all, in a pandemic.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
I had just moved to a new state. In a pandemic.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
I didn't have a general doctor, you know, I didn't
have a regular physician, let alone an obgyn. I hadn't
gone to the doctor since the beginning of the pandemic.
I'm generally healthy, and so I wasn't thinking about seeking
out a doctor or an obg yn until I got pregnant.
So once I got pregnant, I thought, Okay, how hard
(31:16):
is it to find a good doctor? Can't be hard.
I live in the mecca of you know, I live.
I live in La So I got referrals. I did
all the things you're supposed to do. I got referrals.
I checked, you know, I checked everyone at all these
doctors out on Google. I went in prepared with questions,
and what I found is that I was met with
(31:37):
what is the word, I was met with resistance. I
would say, at best, it's like the most polite way
I was. I was met with resistance when I came
in with questions, when I came in sort of informed,
and when I had the audacity to, you know, just
(31:58):
ask what I thought, we're basic questions about how this
would go to and also just try to when I
tried to just form some sort of you know, connection
to this person, it was like I was rushed the
in and out girl.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I was literally told.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Like a fast food service, I'm not fast.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Food service, I'm I'm I don't think people understand that
when you when you are pregnant, you are in your
most vulnerable state, right. I didn't even know to expect that,
And I was very emotional, and I came in and
I was rushed people. These doctors would not look at
me in my face. They just kind of toss medication
(32:34):
my way without even asking me. I mean, it was
just it was so inhumane. I had I had vials
of blood, six vials of my blood taken on accident
without apology. They tried to excuse it and act like
it didn't happen, like so many things happen.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I was like, I now see how this happens.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I just don't like how they don't allow you to film.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, you pay for service. You're paying for that. It's
not free, right, you're paying for that. But they won't
allow you to film your birth in most hospitals, and
they say it is to protect them, so if they
do something wrong, you can't protect yourself. I just never understood.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
That there's so much you can't do that I didn't
know in most cases. In many cases, I should say,
you can't eat in the hospital. Once you're in labor.
You have to have an IV in your system, which
means you can't move around freely. Yes, sure, you most
of the time have to deliver on your back or
in the bed, which let's just think about this for
(33:29):
one moment. This completely changed my outlook on birth. When
one of my girlfriends was like, she had a home birth,
and she said, think about how gravity works. Right, if
you had to push a bowling ball outside out of
your body.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You'd stand up a squat.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Right, does it make sense to lay on your back
to push a bowling one? Out of your body, or
does it make sense to be upright to use gravity.
When somebody said that, I was like, Yo, that is
the most basic thing. And how come we why have
we been trained to think that this is the only
way birth should happen on your back with a doctor
seated at the that's for the doctor's convenience. And I'm
(34:08):
not saying this in all cases. For some cases you
must be on your back.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
It's the safest thing.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
In some cases you need medical interventions. In some cases
you need a see section Like, I am not anti
doctor and I'm not anti hospital, but what I am
is pro woman and pro baby, and what makes that
and I think that are our needs and our desires
(34:33):
and our wishes should be honored, you know. And I've
had a doctor literally in the middle of asking questions,
stand up and walk out of the room and say,
you have exceeded your two to three question Max. I am,
and I've given you some grace, but I need to.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Go two to three question Max.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I'm like, I am in.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
My most vulnerable state and I am coming to you
with legitimate questions with a polite attitude. I'm friendly, and
you are just shutting me down. And walking out on me,
and it just made me feel so small and even
as some And I think it's important for someone like
me to talk openly about this because I think that
people would assume that someone this couldn't happen to someone
(35:15):
like me, Like, no way. You know, I'm outspoken, I'm
a journalist, I'm informed, I'm confident. But the experiences that
I had with these doctors, you guys broke me down. Wow,
it made me question myself. It silenced it silenced me.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It made me. I cried after every appointment.
Speaker 5 (35:33):
I started thinking something's maybe wrong with me, Like do
I need to smile more? What can I do to
make myself seem worthy of good care in the presence
of these doctors? That is not the way it should be.
I'm paying for the service I'm paying into.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
So the whole.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Medical industrial complex is poisoned, and there's so much change
that needs to happen. There's so much reform that we
need on every level level within the hospital system, with
the insurance system, you know, at the legislative level, we
need to figure out how to create pipelines for more midwives,
(36:12):
more doulas. We have to figure out how to create
more access so that underserved communities can have access to
midwives and doulas if that's what they need. And by
the way, the other thing that I learned which made
me feel energized around this topic because this topic is
depressing to a lot of people and they.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Kind of like lean back.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
They're like, Ooh, I don't really want to talk about that.
That's I'm just going to hope for the best with
my with my birth. But I think we have to
lean in to this conversation. What helped me lean in
was understanding that this is solvable, Like there are solutions,
and there's a stat that was really staggering.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
To me.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
That basically, if if you have a midwife or a doula,
seventy percent of these deaths could be prevented. Seventy percent
of these materi ternal health, black maternal health that could
be prevented with the intervention of a midwife and a doula.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
That gives me hope.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
That's like, Okay, well, if that's the way to solve this,
let's figure out how we can create a pipeline of
more midwives, more doulas. Let's figure out how we can
create a system that's more of a hybrid model where doctors, doulas,
and midwives can all coexist peacefully, can work well together.
And so that's as you can see. I'm just very
(37:29):
fired up about this particular issue because I just think
there's nothing more important than keeping mothers alive to raise
these children that we are bringing into the world, especially
at a time like this where more women are being
forced into motherhood before they're ready. If we have the
audacity as a country, if our government has the audacity
(37:49):
to force women into parenthood before they are ready, we
need to create systems that will keep them alive to
raise those children. It is as simple as that. So
I hope next season I don't bring it back to
the show.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
I hope next season this is something we can talk
about and unpack.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Definitely a conversation.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Can I just tell you this is the first time
I had this conversation with two men.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh listen, I swear by duelers.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
You know, chills right now just.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
Because of the experiences that me and my wife have
had in the hospital, you know, whether it was emergency
se sections. She had to be rushed for our second child,
and when Latham came in for our third childh My
wife was dreading having another sea section. Lath was like,
you don't have to have one, but the doctor was
telling her they had to have one. And what you
realize is it's easy for the doctor, and it's more
money because it's a surgery. So the doctor can schedule
(38:37):
with day to come in, cut her open, take the
baby out, thaw her back up.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It's more money.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
But think about how much pain that calls us for
the women. But they're not thinking about that. They're thinking
about them.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
And surgeries go left, can go wrong.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
And I also feel like I need to say, you know,
things can go wrong in a home birth, absolutely, but
but I think the problem is we've inflated, like there's
an inflated sense that home births are more dangerous than
hospital births, and if you actually look at the stats.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That's not true.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
And I feel like I need to also share that, like,
while I had this beautiful birth that truly changed my
life and my perspective on literally everything, I did have
a complication after I delivered my baby, and I won't
get into the details about it, but what I will
say is that I had.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
The most competent.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
Medical professionals in my home, who took the best care
of me, and they were so Not only did they
take the best care of me and solve the problem
in a speedy manner, but they protected my mental and
my spiritual and my emotional state such that I did
(39:56):
not even know I was having an emergency. I did
not until the next day. They So when I think
about my birth, I don't have birth trauma. I don't
think about birth trauma. I don't think about this complication.
I think about the incredible experience that I had. And
that's because they prioritized my mental health and my peace
(40:18):
and my sanity and my well being in a.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Three sixty way.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
If I asked them if I was in a hospital
and this exact same thing happened, like, what would that
have What would have happened? They were like, well, they
would have rushed in a number of nurses and doctors
probably would have come in. You probably would have been
you would have been separated from your child, You would
have been rushed into a different room. You might have
been given blood transfusion. You like, it would have been like,
(40:50):
I mean, alarms would have been going off. In the
safety of my home, I was taken care of. I
didn't know anything was going wrong. They swiftly handled me,
and they were very prepared to call the ambulance if
they needed to. And I think that's really important for
people to know. People think that, like there aren't mechanisms
(41:11):
in place to navigate when something goes wrong, and they're
they're midwives. Their actual job is to identify the point
when and if you need medical intervention, if you need
to call the ambulance, you need to get to someone,
to a hospital, there's already a plan in place. I
had four backup hospitals. I spoke to doctors that every
(41:31):
single one of them, spoke to nurses at every single
one of them, because as a black woman, I did
not want the first time. I didn't want them to
meet me for the first time, and in my most
vulnerable state, in an emergency state, I wanted them to
know my name.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I wanted them to see my face.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
And honestly, who has time to go to from hospital
to hospital to do that kind of thing. I made
the time because I knew it was a matter of
life or death. And so I share that with whoever
is listening, Like, you know, there's so much fear mongering
around motherhood and childbirth in this country, and you know
it's for a good reason. These stats are really staggering.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
They're real there. It's very scary.
Speaker 5 (42:07):
But at the same time, there are pathways to beautiful,
safe birthing experiences, and there are things we can do
to empower ourselves and to advocate for ourselves. And I
think a big part of that is empowering our partners
and informing our partners on how they can be advocates
for us and how they can be allies. So I
just really want to I really want to hold space
(42:28):
for this just to say, like, thank you guys for
even taking this much time in this interview to talk
about this. And as fathers, you guys, I can tell
you care, I can tell you're leaning in and literally
this is the kind of conversation we're having on the
Conversations project.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Well, I just to come full circle. I just want
to say thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:45):
For we to respond.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
I would say that, you know the best thing about
these conversations. You know, Charlemagne has for daughters with his wife.
I have six kids with mom, but more men want
to know what's going on. Before it was one of
those things you go to the hospital tell us when
we need to be there, but we want to be
a part of it. We want to know what's what
affects you, what makes you cry, what hurts, what your
concerns are, because now situation, we can do it together.
(43:10):
It's not just you on your own and same thing
with us with the stuff that we go through. It's
not just that's on our own. And we appreciate you
for sharing your what.
Speaker 6 (43:16):
Dudes are important too when you in those hospitals and
have to communicate with those doctors and those nurses.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
As a father, as a husband, when you see your.
Speaker 6 (43:24):
Wife of one of our kids, they didn't have any epidurals.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
The hospital had no epidemi.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
The hospital had told me what the hospital and that's
where my wife delivered, which is where.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
The hospital had no epidoros. So my wife had to
deliver the baby. Like you know, they could have went
and got one from another hospital, but she was already
right there, so she ended up having a baby with
no epidural.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Like you mean, you know what I mean? Like that's
how I'm talking to.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
The people, you know, But when you have a doula,
a doula communicates in a different ways.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
Them always love layah, and I will say my husband
was like my due by the way, like my husband,
I call him my dad doulah. We were in the bathroom,
we were in the shower for the majority of my labor.
He sat there with me and and labored with me.
It was the most it was the most beautiful experience
for us as a couple. And I there was this
one like triumphant, amazing moment where I got into this
(44:19):
like deep meditative state. I was like in a trans
I was literally on another planet and I was just breathing, breathing, breathing,
and I got this like download where I thought, Okay,
what happens if I don't react to the pain I
feel the wave coming? What if I just breathe and
(44:40):
just don't even react.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Is that possible? Let's try.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
So I sat there and like every time I felt
like like tensing up or like my my my eyebrows furrowing,
or my hands, I just breathed into those areas and
I just tried to just smile and stay calm. And
I was a to do that through three or four contractions,
and my husband sitting right in front of me in
(45:05):
the shower, which, by the way, the shower is liquid epidural. Ladies,
listen up. The shower is liquid epidural.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
He takes your pain.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
Yes, I was in the shower with the water on.
It took my pain from a seven to a two.
It Why don't we tell women this? Why don't we
talk about this? Why do we act like epidura is
the only pain relief available to us.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
It's not water is. It's the most natural thing.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
So I sat there and I'm having my water I'm
having my like divine goddess, feminine, you know, divine, feminine moment.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I'm sitting there feeling so powerful, so strong.
Speaker 5 (45:37):
And my husband's sitting at like literally kneeling in front
of me, looking at me, and he's and my eyes
were closed, and he taps me, and he's like, babe,
do you think you're gonna have another one soon?
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Is everything okay? And I just went I just had three?
And he was like, damn.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
Like I never felt like more of a bad bitch
of my life, I'm telling you right now. Or if
I was like, yo, I could do anything, if I
can do this, and I swear to you, guys, that
lesson that just was deposited to me in labor is
something I think about every single day. When something happens
that makes me uncomfortable, that pisses me off, something a
challenge arises, I breathe into it, and I'm like, how
(46:19):
can I not react to this? How can I rise
above this? How can I ride this wave versus letting
this wave take me down? These are things that these
are like just gems that would not have been unlocked
to me if I didn't allow myself, trust myself enough
to go through this process and allow my body to
do what it was meant to do. And I wish
more people talked about the spiritual side of birth, of
(46:42):
unmedicated birth.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
And it's not easy. I don't want to paint like
an unrealistic picture. It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
But we were.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
Built to do hard things. And by the way, my
baby was nine pounds Okay, so this is a nine
pounds baby, big baby, unmedicated and I live to.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Tell the story. And I didn't just survive, but I
thrive through it.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Well.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Watch the Conversation project on Hulu right now.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Elaine Walterorth, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
It's the Breakfast Club, good morning, wake that ass up
Earth in the morning.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
The Breakfast Club
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Everybody is DJ Envy Charlamagne the guy. We are the
Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building
this morning. Yes, indeed we have Miss Elaine well to
Roth Welcome, Hi guys this morning.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I'm good.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
How are you good?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Goods Black and Holly favorite.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
I'm just really taking in this whole chair, the throne
that you're sitting, that the two of you are sitting on.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Met I didn't get a throne. Where's my throne?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We got it.
Speaker 6 (00:29):
We're thinking of something for the guests in twenty twenty
four to make them because we're all regal, right, but
this is really just for television, right ron.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
BT and for the Internet and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (00:38):
And then when we add the new third person, they'll
have a thron So we're gonna have a whole watch
the Throne campaign.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Okay, but we have to figure it out because the
thrones will be too high to block the cameras, which
you didn't think about beforehand, so it's gonna be a
cluster f You're gonna figure it out.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Get came.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
So now you're here for a conversation project.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, Stations Project.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Yep, Now what is the Conversation Project?
Speaker 5 (01:01):
So the Conversations Project, which is on Hulu is basically
so it's inspired by the Harlem Renaissance Salon. It's like,
you know, think back to the era when you know,
black intellectuals, academics, entertainers would rub shoulders and break bread
and and share ideas in a safe space. And we
(01:21):
wanted to recreate that on television. And it's it's really incredible.
It's it's bringing together some of the greatest minds in
our culture from every corner of the world. So you
have you have artists, you have entertainers, you have we
had a black astronaut all coming together to really exchange ideas,
(01:43):
and you know, you don't have anything like this on television,
which is kind of crazy when you really think about it,
It's like, how has it taken this long for a
show like this to come about?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
But I'm so glad that it did.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And we just talk about everything under the sun that
affects our community, and we talk about it through a
black lens, and we debate, we laugh, we you know,
we agree, we challenge each other, and it's really intergenerational.
It's just a really positive, nuanced place to have conversations
(02:17):
that matter in our culture.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I feel like it's very all of it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (02:20):
I feel like it's very hard for us to have
conversations nowadays. I feel like we're all talking at each
other instead of tune with each other that part.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And that's why I think a show like this is
so important, because it's modeling how to have productive, constructive dialogue,
how to listen, how to not react, you know, defensively.
It's really important, I think, especially in these times that
are so divided, it's so divisive, to really give people
(02:50):
an example of how you can articulate your point of
view and also appreciate and listen to somebody else's point
of view and maybe even evolve, you know, maybe even
maybe your maybe your perspective might evolve in the process.
So I think a show like this is so important.
And for me, I always, whether I'm writing books or
(03:10):
on television, I want to create what I think the
world needs more of. And I think the world needs
more of hard converse examples of hard conversations that are
being tackled in a really constructive way.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
I love that because I feel like, you know, over
the last several years, we've seen all of these, you know,
topics that we never discussed come to the forefront, but
we're still not having nuanced conversations about them.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
We're not peeling back layers.
Speaker 6 (03:35):
We're just telling you your trash if you believe this,
your trash if you don't think like this.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But it's just like, yo, where's the exchange of ideas?
Speaker 6 (03:42):
So those people that you may not like the way
they think about a certain thing, they might evolve on
the subject if you just have a conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Exactly and you might evolve.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
I think that's the that's the thing, is to come
to the table with an open mind and be willing
to listen. I learned my mind was open, you know.
I came with an open mind and open heart. I
think everybody did. And you know what helped. I forgot
to mention this. I can't believe I forgot to mention this.
It's a dinner party. So you have like Michelin Star,
you know, a Michelin Star chef who is giving us
(04:13):
incredible food and black owned wines, and we are just
like so I feel like everybody came in like maybe
a little.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Nervous, like was about to happen at the table. They
gonna there's.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Gonna be there, gonna be some gotcha questions, and then
everyone just realized this is actually a safe space. Sip
some wine, you know, you relax your nerves, you know,
settle a little. And we really we came to the table,
many of us strangers, and we walked away feeling like
we had extended community. We like like a family, honestly.
(04:45):
So it was it was beautiful, and I hope, I
honestly hope that it inspires people to have some of
these conversations at their own dinner table with their own friends,
at their work, at their church, Like whatever the community
is that you are a part of, this is how
you can have these conversations and also invite people over
to your house. Again, Like we've all been in isolation
(05:06):
for so long, and we thrive in community, you know,
but it takes somebody to be intentional about curating the
right group, about sending that invitation, bringing people to creating
a safe space and really guiding the conversation. So I
really hope that like this is like the return of
the dinner party.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
You know, who are some of the people that are
I know, every episode is a different cast. Who are
some of the people that are at the table.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Yeah, we had a whole wide range of people, like
I said, from black astronauts to entertainers to authors, athletes.
So we had a couple of people we had that
I really love Phoebe Robinson, She's hilarious, Shine Jim Jones,
Ali Love roy Wood, Junior Tory Notton, Torri Notton, she
(05:52):
was amazing. Yes, Lena Bloom And so the hosts were
the three hosts. One is the chef, David Lawrence. He
has a restaurant in the Bay Area, but he's originally
from the UK and he's a.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Little bit older. I call him uncle.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And then we have Mark Spears who is at ESPN
and Landscape. He's a Hall of Fame sports writer. And
they conceived of this show, they pitched it, they got
it sold, which is a miracle to me in this landscape,
especially for a black show, bringing together black folks to
have black conversations that are you know, smart, intellectual and
(06:35):
not trash, Like We're not sitting there trying to trash
each other, which is usually what you see get sold.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And then they brought me on.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
They wanted to have a woman's perspective at the table,
someone who could help bridge the generations. And I immediately,
I mean, once I understood the concept of the show,
the spirit of the show, the intention of the show
is like, sign me up, this is a dinner party.
I feel like anybody would want to be invited to.
So it was an honor to be a part of it.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
How did you pick the people you wanted to have
a conversation because you know, when you talk about curating
right people, even when you say let's bring back the
dinner party, I'm just not letting nobody in my house.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Your energy gotta be right.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Your energy got to be right. That's the part I think.
I think we all just kind of agreed. We we
all brought our lists, and we all kind of thought,
we want to make sure every single table is really intergenerational.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So that was a really important piece.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
We wanted to make sure that it was co ed,
so there was a nice mix of you know, men
and women, and that everyone was represented, so trans folks,
queer folks.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You know.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
I think the beauty of this show is that it
showcases the spectrum of blackness, right, Like we talk about
what it means to be black and queer black and
trans to what it's like to we talk about the
biracial experience and everything in between. We got, you know,
old elders in the room, we got the young folks
in the room, we got the millennials. And what you
(07:51):
see is that which it just reminds you that blackness
is not a monolith. We come from all different places
all over the world with different personspectives, and it really
it shapes our worldview. But when we break bread with
each other, when we break down these conversations together, we
realize how much more we have in common then than
what divides us.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
Yeah, what about the titles of the show, like, like
those are the conversation starters within themselves?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Like what it's called We Him is one episode called.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
I Didn't Name, I Didn't Name? Did you guys? Have
you guys seen any of them?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
If you have not seen them, it's a six episode series.
It's totally bingeable. You once you watch one episode, you
will naturally want to just keep going. And I've gotten
such great feedback from everyone that you know, they're excited
to see black folks coming together to have these rich conversations,
these intergenerational conversations. Especially in a time like this, Like, honestly, guys,
(08:49):
it's dark times out there, absolutely, and we need something
that is feel good, that makes us think, that opens
our mind. And I think this show is exactly that.
And I hope we get to do it again and again,
and I hope we can bring y'all to the table
next season.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
What's one conversation that stood out the most to you
that that you remember. That's something that she was like, Wow,
this is going to spark a lot of conversation and
interest when this episode's released, So when people see this episode.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, So two come to mind.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
One is a conversation with Brett Gray, who's this gen
Z actor, and he brought such an incredible energy to
the table, and he got into a kind of a
contentious conversation with the older gentleman at the table, who
we were calling them ogs, so David Lawrence, Mark Spears.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
They were talking.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
About sort of how this older generation we're talking about
black manhood and and toxic masculinity, and how the older
generation of black men in us, with the intention of
trying to protect and guide the next generation of black men,
(10:00):
sometimes their way can crush the spirit of this younger generation.
That aren't as oppressed, that aren't as you know, they aren't,
they aren't facing they're living in a completely different world.
And and so how can you prepare the next generation
of black men to navigate the world as black men
(10:22):
when they're in a completely different world than you came from.
And so he's sitting there with his like fly like
denim jacket on. It's sparkly, he's got sequins, and he's like,
to be honest, I think that when you don't want
us to sparkle, when we sparkle, it makes you uncomfortable.
You put us in such a rigid box of what
(10:43):
it means to be a black man. And and and frankly,
I don't identify with that. I'm more than that. I
want to be more than that, but you put me
in the box and you actually make me feel more
oppressed than than than the world. And so it was
like this really intense moment where you just know, like
this is a moment that is so powerful that people
(11:07):
need to see. And I hope that it really sparks
some debate. Not some debate, but I really hope it
sparks kind of introspective conversations between black men of different generations,
and you know, it was beautiful. Is I feel like
there's a lot of conversation about women, which is important.
We've made a lot of you know that that's been
(11:28):
very intentional on media to focus more on the women's gaze,
but there's so much ground that we don't cover when
it comes to black malehood manhood.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
And so it felt.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Nice for a moment to just sit back and know that, like,
this is not for me to participate in.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
This is for me to listen and.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Learn and and appreciate the way these black men are
navigating this conversation. And you could see the ogs, you know,
they're not they came from a different generations where generation
where young people you know, you're supposed to stay in
your place to speak when you're spoken to, you respect
your authority and your your elders, and you don't take
a certain tone. And and Brett was coming in there
(12:09):
just speaking his mind. He was very strong with it,
and you could tell the ogs were getting a little
like okay, now, young brother, okay, like you don't have
to you.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Know, like but they they really they they I was.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
So proud of them in that moment because they listened
and they there was a breakthrough I think for everybody
in that room, and they made it clear, like listen,
they apologize on behalf of kind of like this generation
of black men for breaking their spirit and and and
clarified that our intention is to protect you and to
(12:44):
help you navigate this world in ways that we didn't
We didn't have male guidance in this way. And so
while our way might not be perfect, know that it
comes from love. And I just felt like it was
a really kind of beautiful, heartwarming moment and.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
That's something I learned it therapy or like, you know,
I think that our father, or at least my father, I
can't generalize, but my father, I think he was raising
me out of fear, not necessarily love, because he was
just afraid for me in this world as a black man.
He didn't want me to make the same mistakes that
he made as a man. But all he did was
(13:19):
still that same fear exactly inside of me. So it
kept a generational trauma going, you know, exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
But he also raised you from the side of the
Times were different, you know, I mean, I mean, racism
is still big now, but it was ten times worse
back then, where my dad tells me stories where he
couldn't go to certain bathrooms, he couldn't drink out of
certain water fountains, where he looks at white people a
lot different than we do because when he was a kid,
he could never trust him because it was always them versus.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah, that's how my dad kind of raised me. But
for us, my dad.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Was my dad was afraid that I was gonna turn
out like him in a lot of ways, even though
you know, he had his good side, you know, but
he had battled substance abuse, and he was in the
street and stuff like that. But I think he was
more afraid of how if I went on that path.
He knew the white man had a plan for me,
which is frizy. So I think that's what that's what,
That's what it was. I remember my first breakthrough in
(14:09):
therapy was realizing, like, damn, my dad. My dad used
to punish me for things he never taught me. So
he would discipline me for things that you never even
taught me. You told me to follow your lead in
a lot of ways, and then when I did, I
would get.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Punished for it.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
And you know, I think part of part of this
conversation is how does a generation of black men who
didn't have black fathers in the household, or whose fathers
were really challenged by outside factors related to racism, you know,
and and so that that debilitated their ability to be
(14:47):
a good dad, Like, how does that generation of fatherless
black men turn around and figure out how to be
great dads to the next generation when they didn't have
a model for that, And so of course they're going
to make mistakes. And I think the important thing is
now to have dialogue about, you know, how the next
generation can do it differently and what they can learn
(15:09):
in the process. And and even like Chef David, you know,
he's he has a son, a grown child, and he
kind of he had some reflective moments where he said
he could have done some things differently. And I think
that it might have led to some offline conversations that
that were really healthy and really necessary. And I really
hope that that's the that's the result of this show,
(15:33):
And for viewers who are watching, you know what I mean,
I hope it. I hope it triggers some conversations that
are maybe overdue in our community.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
And you know what else too, It's like it's not
even about what we what we uh, it's about what
we learned, but what we got to unlearned as we
get older, because you know, I'll be the first to
admit we were a whole generation that was raised wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know. I mean I'm raised wrong in a lot
of ways, you know. So it's like, yeah, it's about
what you have to and learnt.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Yeah, and you know, I'm a new mom. I just
had a baby seventeen months ago, thank you. So I
felt like I was there listening more than I talk
on topics around parenthood. And you know, Roxane Chante came on,
and you know, she was one of the sort of
our elders.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
We respect her.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
And she was talking about, you know, parenting as a
black mom, especially a single black mom, how parenting a
young black man is different from parenting a young woman.
And I really leaned in because I was like, because
I'm a boy mom.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
And she talked about how.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
There is this tendency in our culture for black moms
to kind of overly caddle black men, which is again
coming from a spirit of love and protection because they
know how harsh this world is on black men. But
in the end, sometimes the outcome is that these men
are not they're not getting the tools that they need
(17:01):
to be men in the world, and they're being coddled
to the point of you know, they're they're not standing
on their own two feet, and so you so there
was this conversation about this generation, this generation of black
men who were raised by mothers that were coddling them
a little too much, and what is that impact on
families black, the black family in this generation. So that's
(17:23):
something I hadn't really thought a lot about, and so
I feel like I learned a lot. You know, normally
you come into conversations, you feel like you have your
talking pointspecially as a journalist like I. I listened and
I learned. And another another really standout moment for me
was Lena Bloom came on. She's a beautiful transactivist and model,
(17:43):
so eloquent. I really encourage you guys to listen to
to watch that episode.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But she sort of.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Challenged the room. She looked around and she said, how
many trans people have you ever invited to dinner or
into your home? And the whole table went silent, and
she really made a compelling case for why we as
a culture, as a community, really need to open our
(18:11):
minds and open our hearts, and and you know, even
if you do not understand the trans experience, it it
is your job to protect and to love your your
sister and your brother, your sisters and your brothers in
the trans community, and that we failed them essentially. And
I was really again, I was really proud of the
(18:32):
room for holding space for that difficult conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And I think we really hurt her. We really hurt her.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
And and I hope that especially for the older heads,
this is a conversation that's a little bit new. It's
newer for the older heads in the space. I think
it changed some of their perspectives.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, you had your child at home?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I think I read that I did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Ye, I had a home I had a home birth
with a with a midwife.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
Is it because of all the things that are going
on in the hospitals and the way the black maternal
death rate is you just didn't trust it.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's also during the pandemic COVID right seventeen months ago? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
No? No, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I mean, are we still dependent? I don't know.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
I don't know what stage we are, but I mean, well, listen,
I got married at home, am I stooped during the
pandemic and I had my baby at home. I don't
know what stage of the pandemic it was, but yes,
it was because you know, I went into pregnancy thinking
that I was going to have a hospital birth, just
like you know, my mother did and my grandmother did.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
That's the norm in our country. But and I sort
of knew.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
About the maternal mortality crisis, and the black maternal mortality crisis,
like in a peripheral sense, like it's something that happens
out there in the world, but maybe not as much here.
I think I bought into this myth that it also,
you know, tends to happen only in impoverished communities, and
so here I am as this, you know, as as
(20:02):
black women go in this country, I am.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I have all the privileges you could have.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
So I thought I wouldn't have a problem having my
baby in the hospital, finding a great doctor, finding great care.
And I was so shocked to learn how difficult it
is to find a healthcare provider in our current medical
system that makes you feel safe, that makes you feel
listened to, that makes you feel like you know they
(20:29):
there's a compassionate person that's going to make sure that
you have the.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Birth that you want.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
I'm based out of LA and so I went through
from doctor to doctor to doctor, and this is me.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I am, like, you know, I'm I'm pretty well connected.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
I got resources, I could go to the best of
the best, and I had bad experience after bad experience
after bad experience. It was so incredibly humbling, and it
it was the first time where I had to really
confront the fear that I could very well become another
(21:07):
statistic And what I learned as I went through this
journey is that this issue is so complex. It is
this crisis, this maternal mortality crisis that you know that
overly impacts black women, is very real, and unfortunately, the
(21:30):
rates of death are actually surging. It's really scary, and
I think when you talk about it with folks, I
think people still have there's this concept, this misconception that
this isn't happening in this country, that this isn't happening
to people who look like me or come from where
I come from. You know, it's not happening to well
educated black women of means.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It absolutely is.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And as I've gotten deeper into this work and into
the stats, I realized that black women, black wealthy women
are dying at higher rates than poor white women in
this country during and after childbirth. So when you understand
like truly, where where, what the picture is, how how
(22:17):
prevalent this issue is in our country and the richest
country in the world, you start to you start to
think about what informs your your point of view on
what a safe where a safe birth happens, and and
who's delivering your baby and why these messages are what
you believe, you know, And so I thought, you know,
(22:37):
I always thought like, oh, to be safe, I should
have you know, I've heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Home births, I've heard of midwives.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Sounds beautiful, God bless but to be safe air quotes,
I'm going to have my baby in a hospital. But
is it truly safer to have your baby in a
hospital when you're a black woman in America? You have
to really, you have to unpack that. And so I
decided to have my baby outside of the hospital. Really
because it was the place that I found the best care.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's as simple as that.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
I am so lucky that I found black midwives, Kimberly
Dirden and a Lager Hill. They owned the only black
owned birthing center in all of southern California, which is wild.
Wouldn't you think that there would be plenty of birthing
centers and black midwives there, But it's still it's you know,
it's a bit of a desert as it relates to
(23:28):
this kind of maternal care. But these women were like angels.
They were truly like they're unsung midwives and doulas are
unsung heroes in our communities. And they came in and
completely changed the trajectory of my pregnancy and really opened
my mind, opened my eyes to this crisis. And and
(23:52):
I feel compelled now to do something about it. And
I will say I think we I had a beautiful birth,
I had a sacred birth. I felt so safe and
cared for. And I feel like we need to share
more positive birthing stories with black women, from black women.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Explaining the process.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Because we've had Thomas time me and my wife several times.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Thomas is your wife pregnant?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Well, we had our last two. Latham was our dula
for our last two.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
She what Latham is incredible. Latham is like also another
unsung hero.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Oh man, She's She's several times so explain the process,
because I think what most women think when when you
think of home, you think of pain, right, And I
think a lot of people go to the hospital for
that epidoro. They go to the hospital make sure that
if there's any complications, especially with the baby, that.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
The doctor can can take care. So just you know, explain.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I have six but all out of hospital, all hospital,
all hospital, and my wife who all hospital. But break
down the process of the experience so women listening don't
get frightened, because if I'm listening, I would get frighten. Now,
all I'm thinking about is pain, I'm thinking about what happens,
I'm thinking blind, I'm thinking a whole lot.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
So break gone a process.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked this, because we need
to reframe pain for birthing people. I too, was so
incredibly scared of not having access to an epidural. Like
even when I found my midwife, I fell in love
with her. I was like, I would love for you
to birth my baby.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
But can we just have an epidural just in case?
Could it just be there? And She's like, kind of
like the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
You can't have an epidural for a home birth, and
that was the thing that made it. It was like
the hardest part for me to overcome is like what
if I can't handle the pain correct? And I actually
did not decide to have a home birth until thirty six,
thirty six or thirty seven weeks. It was like go time,
(25:47):
and I still was like, you know, dating doctors and
tiptoeing like that line. And ultimately I made the call
because I was able to shift my mindset around pain,
and I did that with the support and the guidance
of my midwife. She talks about pain, the pain of
(26:09):
childbirth as purposeful as directional, and she doesn't even use
the word pain. She used the word She uses the
word waves. She uses the word words like intensity. And
she made it clear to me that your body has
been preparing for this since the day you started your period.
Those cramps that you feel, that discomfort that you feel,
(26:31):
is the exact pain that you will feel as labor starts.
So it's not an unfamiliar pain like I thought I
was going to be, like, like it's gonna feel.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Like knives in my Please make it seem like it is.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Absolutely horror horrifying, like the movies and everything we've ever
seen about birth is all inspiring fear. None of it
is inspiring self trust and what a midwife does and
what my wife did is completely she gave my power
back to me. I feel like we have been trained
as a culture, conditioned as a culture to give our
(27:07):
power away as women, as black women, as birthing people.
We give our power away to these authorities in white
lab coats that often undermine our intelligence, that often gaslight us,
that take advantage of the power that we give away.
We're not taught about our bodies. We're not taught about
what we were built to do. We're not taught about
(27:29):
how babies have been getting here since the beginning of time,
which was not in a hospital, right. We're not taught
about how the obe opstroenetics came about and that it
was set up to as a business that prioritizes profit
over patients. We're not taught this. Once you learn just
how systemic and complex this issue is, you start to
(27:52):
realize that, like you need to, there's a lot of
unlearning that we have to do. And I was so
grateful that like this woman, this midwife, the way she
talked about birth was like pleasurable and I was like, Oh,
iing this. I know she's crazy. She's crazy. Is she
talking about birth like it's a pleasurable experience? But y'all,
when I tell you, and God as my witness, my
(28:12):
husband as my witness, my midwife as my witness, delivering
my child at home in an unmedicated birth was the
single most empowering experience of my life.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
It was.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
It was transformative. It was oh my gosh, I'm getting emotional.
It was spiritual. It was beautiful, like the pain was
so secondary to the downloads that I got spiritually, to
the access to my power that was unlocked for me.
(28:49):
It was absolutely beautiful. And I just wish that more
women were told, you were built for this. You can
more than handle this. You will. You will not just survive,
you can thrive through your birth. And so this is
not to demonize you know, the epidural. Listen girl, if
you want to go epidural, get the epidural, press the button,
go for If you want to have a hospital, girl,
(29:09):
do that. But make sure that you feel comfortable and
safe and seen by your healthcare provider, because too many
of us are dying in the hospital system. And if
you are not finding the healthcare that you deserve that
you need. Look outside, look into alternatives, look into other options.
Other options are available, and you can have a beautiful,
(29:31):
safe birth experience outside of the hospital system.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Let me ask you one more question, right, you said, well.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
You guys got me emotional. I didn't expect to go
there today.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It was real conversation because there's a lot of women
out there that need this information. Now, you said it
thirty six weeks that you will still quote unquote dating doctors.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I could be wrong, but I thought your gynacologist is
the one that usually delivers your doctor, and that gynecologe
is somebody that you've been with for a long time
and trust.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Is that not the because I have six kids?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right?
Speaker 4 (30:01):
So the first the first delivery, Madison effed up gynecologists.
It was like a dating the doctor type of thing.
My wife went to somebody was horrible, bad experience. My
wife almost passed. She had one hundred and four temperature
for three or four days. It was very, very bad.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
We moved to Jersey and she got a gynecologist, minority
woman that we trusted. Delivered out other five babies no problems,
but that woman was somebody that we trusted. If my
wife said there was a problem, she dropped what she
did to get to that hospital she believed she trusted.
So when you said data doctors don't most people use
their gynecologists to deliver their baby. So with somebody that
(30:40):
they see that knows them, that they trust or is
that not true?
Speaker 6 (30:43):
No?
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Absolutely, that's the ideal scenario, right. But you have to
understand we were, first of all, in a pandemic.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
I had just moved to a new state. In a pandemic.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
I didn't have a general doctor, you know, I didn't
have a regular physician, let alone an obgyn. I hadn't
gone to the doctor since the beginning of the pandemic.
I'm generally healthy, and so I wasn't thinking about seeking
out a doctor or an obg yn until I got pregnant.
So once I got pregnant, I thought, Okay, how hard
(31:16):
is it to find a good doctor? Can't be hard.
I live in the mecca of you know, I live.
I live in La So I got referrals. I did
all the things you're supposed to do. I got referrals.
I checked, you know, I checked everyone at all these
doctors out on Google. I went in prepared with questions,
and what I found is that I was met with
(31:37):
what is the word, I was met with resistance. I
would say, at best, it's like the most polite way
I was. I was met with resistance when I came
in with questions, when I came in sort of informed,
and when I had the audacity to, you know, just
(31:58):
ask what I thought, we're basic questions about how this
would go to and also just try to when I
tried to just form some sort of you know, connection
to this person, it was like I was rushed the
in and out girl.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I was literally told.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Like a fast food service, I'm not fast.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Food service, I'm I'm I don't think people understand that
when you when you are pregnant, you are in your
most vulnerable state, right. I didn't even know to expect that,
And I was very emotional, and I came in and
I was rushed people. These doctors would not look at
me in my face. They just kind of toss medication
(32:34):
my way without even asking me. I mean, it was
just it was so inhumane. I had I had vials
of blood, six vials of my blood taken on accident
without apology. They tried to excuse it and act like
it didn't happen, like so many things happen.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I was like, I now see how this happens.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I just don't like how they don't allow you to film.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, you pay for service. You're paying for that. It's
not free, right, you're paying for that. But they won't
allow you to film your birth in most hospitals, and
they say it is to protect them, so if they
do something wrong, you can't protect yourself. I just never understood.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
That there's so much you can't do that I didn't
know in most cases. In many cases, I should say,
you can't eat in the hospital. Once you're in labor.
You have to have an IV in your system, which
means you can't move around freely. Yes, sure, you most
of the time have to deliver on your back or
in the bed, which let's just think about this for
(33:29):
one moment. This completely changed my outlook on birth. When
one of my girlfriends was like, she had a home birth,
and she said, think about how gravity works. Right, if
you had to push a bowling ball outside out of
your body.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You'd stand up a squat.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Right, does it make sense to lay on your back
to push a bowling one? Out of your body, or
does it make sense to be upright to use gravity.
When somebody said that, I was like, Yo, that is
the most basic thing. And how come we why have
we been trained to think that this is the only
way birth should happen on your back with a doctor
seated at the that's for the doctor's convenience. And I'm
(34:08):
not saying this in all cases. For some cases you
must be on your back.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
It's the safest thing.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
In some cases you need medical interventions. In some cases
you need a see section Like, I am not anti
doctor and I'm not anti hospital, but what I am
is pro woman and pro baby, and what makes that
and I think that are our needs and our desires
(34:33):
and our wishes should be honored, you know. And I've
had a doctor literally in the middle of asking questions,
stand up and walk out of the room and say,
you have exceeded your two to three question Max. I am,
and I've given you some grace, but I need to.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Go two to three question Max.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I'm like, I am in.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
My most vulnerable state and I am coming to you
with legitimate questions with a polite attitude. I'm friendly, and
you are just shutting me down. And walking out on me,
and it just made me feel so small and even
as some And I think it's important for someone like
me to talk openly about this because I think that
people would assume that someone this couldn't happen to someone
(35:15):
like me, Like, no way. You know, I'm outspoken, I'm
a journalist, I'm informed, I'm confident. But the experiences that
I had with these doctors, you guys broke me down. Wow,
it made me question myself. It silenced it silenced me.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It made me. I cried after every appointment.
Speaker 5 (35:33):
I started thinking something's maybe wrong with me, Like do
I need to smile more? What can I do to
make myself seem worthy of good care in the presence
of these doctors? That is not the way it should be.
I'm paying for the service I'm paying into.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
So the whole.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Medical industrial complex is poisoned, and there's so much change
that needs to happen. There's so much reform that we
need on every level level within the hospital system, with
the insurance system, you know, at the legislative level, we
need to figure out how to create pipelines for more midwives,
(36:12):
more doulas. We have to figure out how to create
more access so that underserved communities can have access to
midwives and doulas if that's what they need. And by
the way, the other thing that I learned which made
me feel energized around this topic because this topic is
depressing to a lot of people and they.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Kind of like lean back.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
They're like, Ooh, I don't really want to talk about that.
That's I'm just going to hope for the best with
my with my birth. But I think we have to
lean in to this conversation. What helped me lean in
was understanding that this is solvable, Like there are solutions,
and there's a stat that was really staggering.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
To me.
Speaker 5 (36:48):
That basically, if if you have a midwife or a doula,
seventy percent of these deaths could be prevented. Seventy percent
of these materi ternal health, black maternal health that could
be prevented with the intervention of a midwife and a doula.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
That gives me hope.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
That's like, Okay, well, if that's the way to solve this,
let's figure out how we can create a pipeline of
more midwives, more doulas. Let's figure out how we can
create a system that's more of a hybrid model where doctors, doulas,
and midwives can all coexist peacefully, can work well together.
And so that's as you can see. I'm just very
(37:29):
fired up about this particular issue because I just think
there's nothing more important than keeping mothers alive to raise
these children that we are bringing into the world, especially
at a time like this where more women are being
forced into motherhood before they're ready. If we have the
audacity as a country, if our government has the audacity
(37:49):
to force women into parenthood before they are ready, we
need to create systems that will keep them alive to
raise those children. It is as simple as that. So
I hope next season I don't bring it back to
the show.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
I hope next season this is something we can talk
about and unpack.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Definitely a conversation.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Can I just tell you this is the first time
I had this conversation with two men.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh listen, I swear by duelers.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
You know, chills right now just.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
Because of the experiences that me and my wife have
had in the hospital, you know, whether it was emergency
se sections. She had to be rushed for our second child,
and when Latham came in for our third childh My
wife was dreading having another sea section. Lath was like,
you don't have to have one, but the doctor was
telling her they had to have one. And what you
realize is it's easy for the doctor, and it's more
money because it's a surgery. So the doctor can schedule
(38:37):
with day to come in, cut her open, take the
baby out, thaw her back up.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
It's more money.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
But think about how much pain that calls us for
the women. But they're not thinking about that. They're thinking
about them.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
And surgeries go left, can go wrong.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
And I also feel like I need to say, you know,
things can go wrong in a home birth, absolutely, but
but I think the problem is we've inflated, like there's
an inflated sense that home births are more dangerous than
hospital births, and if you actually look at the stats.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That's not true.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
And I feel like I need to also share that, like,
while I had this beautiful birth that truly changed my
life and my perspective on literally everything, I did have
a complication after I delivered my baby, and I won't
get into the details about it, but what I will
say is that I had.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
The most competent.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
Medical professionals in my home, who took the best care
of me, and they were so Not only did they
take the best care of me and solve the problem
in a speedy manner, but they protected my mental and
my spiritual and my emotional state such that I did
(39:56):
not even know I was having an emergency. I did
not until the next day. They So when I think
about my birth, I don't have birth trauma. I don't
think about birth trauma. I don't think about this complication.
I think about the incredible experience that I had. And
that's because they prioritized my mental health and my peace
(40:18):
and my sanity and my well being in a.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Three sixty way.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
If I asked them if I was in a hospital
and this exact same thing happened, like, what would that
have What would have happened? They were like, well, they
would have rushed in a number of nurses and doctors
probably would have come in. You probably would have been
you would have been separated from your child, You would
have been rushed into a different room. You might have
been given blood transfusion. You like, it would have been like,
(40:50):
I mean, alarms would have been going off. In the
safety of my home, I was taken care of. I
didn't know anything was going wrong. They swiftly handled me,
and they were very prepared to call the ambulance if
they needed to. And I think that's really important for
people to know. People think that, like there aren't mechanisms
(41:11):
in place to navigate when something goes wrong, and they're
they're midwives. Their actual job is to identify the point
when and if you need medical intervention, if you need
to call the ambulance, you need to get to someone,
to a hospital, there's already a plan in place. I
had four backup hospitals. I spoke to doctors that every
(41:31):
single one of them, spoke to nurses at every single
one of them, because as a black woman, I did
not want the first time. I didn't want them to
meet me for the first time, and in my most
vulnerable state, in an emergency state, I wanted them to
know my name.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I wanted them to see my face.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
And honestly, who has time to go to from hospital
to hospital to do that kind of thing. I made
the time because I knew it was a matter of
life or death. And so I share that with whoever
is listening, Like, you know, there's so much fear mongering
around motherhood and childbirth in this country, and you know
it's for a good reason. These stats are really staggering.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
They're real there. It's very scary.
Speaker 5 (42:07):
But at the same time, there are pathways to beautiful,
safe birthing experiences, and there are things we can do
to empower ourselves and to advocate for ourselves. And I
think a big part of that is empowering our partners
and informing our partners on how they can be advocates
for us and how they can be allies. So I
just really want to I really want to hold space
(42:28):
for this just to say, like, thank you guys for
even taking this much time in this interview to talk
about this. And as fathers, you guys, I can tell
you care, I can tell you're leaning in and literally
this is the kind of conversation we're having on the
Conversations project.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Well, I just to come full circle. I just want
to say thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:45):
For we to respond.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
I would say that, you know the best thing about
these conversations. You know, Charlemagne has for daughters with his wife.
I have six kids with mom, but more men want
to know what's going on. Before it was one of
those things you go to the hospital tell us when
we need to be there, but we want to be
a part of it. We want to know what's what
affects you, what makes you cry, what hurts, what your
concerns are, because now situation, we can do it together.
(43:10):
It's not just you on your own and same thing
with us with the stuff that we go through. It's
not just that's on our own. And we appreciate you
for sharing your what.
Speaker 6 (43:16):
Dudes are important too when you in those hospitals and
have to communicate with those doctors and those nurses.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
As a father, as a husband, when you see your.
Speaker 6 (43:24):
Wife of one of our kids, they didn't have any epidurals.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
The hospital had no epidemi.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
The hospital had told me what the hospital and that's
where my wife delivered, which is where.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
The hospital had no epidoros. So my wife had to
deliver the baby. Like you know, they could have went
and got one from another hospital, but she was already
right there, so she ended up having a baby with
no epidural.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Like you mean, you know what I mean? Like that's
how I'm talking to.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
The people, you know, But when you have a doula,
a doula communicates in a different ways.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
Them always love layah, and I will say my husband
was like my due by the way, like my husband,
I call him my dad doulah. We were in the bathroom,
we were in the shower for the majority of my labor.
He sat there with me and and labored with me.
It was the most it was the most beautiful experience
for us as a couple. And I there was this
one like triumphant, amazing moment where I got into this
(44:19):
like deep meditative state. I was like in a trans
I was literally on another planet and I was just breathing, breathing, breathing,
and I got this like download where I thought, Okay,
what happens if I don't react to the pain I
feel the wave coming? What if I just breathe and
(44:40):
just don't even react.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Is that possible? Let's try.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
So I sat there and like every time I felt
like like tensing up or like my my my eyebrows furrowing,
or my hands, I just breathed into those areas and
I just tried to just smile and stay calm. And
I was a to do that through three or four contractions,
and my husband sitting right in front of me in
(45:05):
the shower, which, by the way, the shower is liquid epidural. Ladies,
listen up. The shower is liquid epidural.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
He takes your pain.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
Yes, I was in the shower with the water on.
It took my pain from a seven to a two.
It Why don't we tell women this? Why don't we
talk about this? Why do we act like epidura is
the only pain relief available to us.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
It's not water is. It's the most natural thing.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
So I sat there and I'm having my water I'm
having my like divine goddess, feminine, you know, divine, feminine moment.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I'm sitting there feeling so powerful, so strong.
Speaker 5 (45:37):
And my husband's sitting at like literally kneeling in front
of me, looking at me, and he's and my eyes
were closed, and he taps me, and he's like, babe,
do you think you're gonna have another one soon?
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Is everything okay? And I just went I just had three?
And he was like, damn.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
Like I never felt like more of a bad bitch
of my life, I'm telling you right now. Or if
I was like, yo, I could do anything, if I
can do this, and I swear to you, guys, that
lesson that just was deposited to me in labor is
something I think about every single day. When something happens
that makes me uncomfortable, that pisses me off, something a
challenge arises, I breathe into it, and I'm like, how
(46:19):
can I not react to this? How can I rise
above this? How can I ride this wave versus letting
this wave take me down? These are things that these
are like just gems that would not have been unlocked
to me if I didn't allow myself, trust myself enough
to go through this process and allow my body to
do what it was meant to do. And I wish
more people talked about the spiritual side of birth, of
(46:42):
unmedicated birth.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
And it's not easy. I don't want to paint like
an unrealistic picture. It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
But we were.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
Built to do hard things. And by the way, my
baby was nine pounds Okay, so this is a nine
pounds baby, big baby, unmedicated and I live to.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Tell the story. And I didn't just survive, but I
thrive through it.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Well.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Watch the Conversation project on Hulu right now.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Elaine Walterorth, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
It's the Breakfast Club, good morning, wake that ass up
Earth in the morning.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
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