Today on the Breakfast Club, Cheryl McKissack On ‘The Black Family Who Built America,' Black Solidarity, McKissack & McKissack. Listen For More!
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Every day up the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Done morning, everybody, it's the j env just hilarious. Charlamagne,
the gud We are the breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Lawn.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
La Rosa is here with us as well, and we
got a special guest in the building.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
A new book is.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Out right now, The Black Family who built America. Ladies
and gentlemen, she's back, Cheryl McKissick, Daniel, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, how you feeling excited? Welcome back, thank you,
thank you, to see you. Good to see you too.
You look younger. I love that. Okay, whatever he's doing,
I need some of that.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So for people that didn't hear when you came up
here last time, I didn't read the book yet, explain
what your family has done for this country, The Black
family who built America. Break it down from your great
great grandfather, how he started and where it came from.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Moses Moses MCIs okay, So let me start with saying,
I am the proud CEO of a fifth generation business
in America. And I know Charlemagne keeps calling it seven generations.
He's just calling in the girl behind me, okay, and
her children, my.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Grandkids, got in trouble for today, she was one of
the producers.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Like it's.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Because that's what it's going to be. That's right, it's manifesting.
So we date back two hundred and thirty years in
this country, uh, starting with the first descent of our family,
Moses mcisick the first, who came to this country in
seventeen ninety as a slave and was taught to trade
of making brick. His son was Moses mcizick the second,
(01:39):
and he was a master carpenter and he actually started
in North Carolina, but he was given as a gift
to the Cheers family in Nashville, Tennessee with spring Hill,
and so that's when the mcisicks moved from North Carolina
to Tennessee. He had seven girls in this seven boys,
(02:01):
and his first son is Moses mcizick the third and
his brother Calvin, and they became the first black licensed
architects in America. Sure you don't want that one to do.
And anyway, they were known because they traveled all through
(02:23):
the Northeast and the South. They built over six thousand churches,
they built thirteen fourteen historically black colleges, all the colleges,
all the buildings at Fisk University are pretty much designed
by Calvin and Moses mcizick. Maharry Medical School, Tennessee State University.
(02:49):
What's the one that tusky? And so they worked all
through the South. They also got an opportunity to go
to Haiti and work with paper Papa Doc and then
over to Africa. So these men were very innovative. And
the company was then passed down to my father, William G.
(03:11):
Barry McKissick. And so now we're four generations in if
you haven't lost count all right. And then the company
was passed down to my mother, who was a Fears
leader by herself, and then eventually I stepped in and
took over the company as the fifth generation.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You know what I love about that? And I joke
with my kids all the time, right, and I said,
you know, when I passed, I said, I'm gonna leave everything.
I said, but there's one thing that I need And
I said, I want to put a family portrait of
me and my wife in the house. And they said,
well why, I said, a lot of times in our
family we forget about grandfather's great grandfathers and what they've
(03:51):
established and brought to us because it's like time moved so.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Fast, especially with a great grandparents.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So the fact that you can break down all that
you know, your kids will be able to break down
that down. Your grandkids will be able to break that down.
And that's something that I feel like we miss. You know,
when people pass, you know, we're sad and then we
forget about it. But these are the people that started
our lives, started generational wealth. We talk about all the time,
(04:16):
and I feel like, especially in black families, we should
have that, we should know. Like I don't know my
great grandfather. I don't know much about him because my
grandfather didn't talk about him and my parents didn't talk
about him. But it's one of those things. It's like
we move on. And I love the fact that that
is so built into your family that y'all keep talking
about it, you keep mentioning, and you keep talking about
the great things that your family has done.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You know, what you just said is so powerful. But
it's so easy to record what's happening in your family.
Just do a family tree. Just start a family tree
with the individuals that you do know. I remember, being
like nine or ten years old, my mother said, look
at this, we just found the family tree, and I'm like,
(05:02):
I was fascinated by it. So that was the beginning
of me really trying to get this story out. I
remember taking that family tree to my father's office and
turning it into a real structural plan. I mean, it
was like as huge as a blueprint for a building
(05:23):
because it dated back to my great great grandfather. But
I kept losing it kept I mean I totally redid it,
beautiful print and everything, and can't find it. So now
when it's time to do the book, I'm like, well,
the one thing we need is a family tree because
people will getting lost in the shuffle of reading all
(05:44):
of this. So a couple of weeks ago, I go
visit my mother and I'm cleaning out one of her
George and bam, the original one I saw the very beginning.
That's God. And so what I would say to everyone,
it's just start writing it down and have someone responsible
(06:04):
to keep it in racket. That is why we ended
up giving a lot of our artifacts to the African
American Museum on the Mall because I kept losing the
original license. Well you put them in your office, you know.
Actually we store them and we make replicas of the
license and of the pictures and things like that. But
(06:28):
then when it comes time when you move, you're like,
oh my god, where is it? I told Chan my
pr consult I said, Chan, I am tired of losing this.
What are we gonna do?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Sai?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We're gonna give it to the museum and they will
keep it forever. And so that's that's important that you know,
we keep up with our family legacy because everyone has one.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
You see what all the time with you know when
you see white people like they do it all the time, right,
like love them, I hate them. You know who Donald
Trump's father is, right? You know who Donald Trump's grandfather is, right,
because he talks about them all the time. You hear
the story about his his father that gave.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Him a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You hear those stories.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Easy though, But a lot of times the great great
grandparents that you end up losing track of your father
and your grandparents.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That's easy because that's generate.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Trump's son and Trump's grandson will always know about the
grandfather that gave Donald Trump the million.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Dollars to start his Somebody knows them though, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
But you know those stories always talk because you hear
about the stories that we need to talk about hours more.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
I think it's a little different for us too, because
like when my grandmother, she always talks about how like
they weren't they didn't keep record or things because they
just it wasn't something that was normal in the household,
Like you didn't have pictures of certain people, you didn't,
so then that gets passed down. It's just something you
don't know to do.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Also, as black people, they just didn't care about us
enough to give us our records, records. They threw them out,
threw them out, they didn't care. But I still think
you can find it. It's just genealogy and getting the
genealogists to help you, you know, go through it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I mean we went back well with Nick Childs. We
went back to spring Hill, Tennessee, and went through records
of you know, the slaves that were actually working on
the mcisock house and the Cheers house, and there were records,
you know. I mean they try to erase them, but
they can't, I mean their graves. So I think everyone
(08:21):
can contract their family history.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I want to ask when I read this book and
I see how this empire started in the eighteen hundreds.
It reminds me of how resilient Black people are. We
can navigate our way through anything. So it gave me
a sense of hope, especially for the times that we're
in now. Has it always given you that's in surprise?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah? I mean, you know, if you think about it,
one in five businesses fail the first year. Sixty five
percent fell in ten years, and the average family business
only lasts twenty four years. Now, the chances for a
family business to pass down to a second generation is
(09:00):
like sixty percent. The chances of it passing to a
third is fourteen And I mean to a third is
fourteen percent, and to a fourth generation is three percent.
So here we are at five generations. And so I
think what we do in the book is we make
a case as to how the Mechusics were able to
(09:21):
do that, and it goes all the way back to slavery.
So slavery was different in every state, you know, like
North Carolina was probably the most lenient of slaves at
the time compared to let's say Alabama and some other
states South Carolina, South Carolina, and really it's because they
(09:42):
didn't have as many of the huge plantations slave masters
have more like twelve thirteen, fourteen fifteen slaves. So the
slaves were more like extended family. They weren't really they
didn't have to be suppressed because just think about it.
We went to spring hilltonnes Sea, and we saw a
plantation where there was a family of five people, but
(10:05):
there were three hundred slaves working for them. So who
had the power, right, So you have to suppress the
three hundred people if you want to survive. And so
it wasn't like that in North Carolina. So we make
that case that you know, the leniency of slavery in
(10:26):
that state must have helped the mcisocks get to where
they are. And then the fact that slave masters after
slavery still needed the craft and services that we provided,
so they put us in business. And so the mckusicks
were put in business by their slave masters. Moses mciswick
(10:48):
the second had his first company. And so you know,
this was during the time where we had Tulsa, so
we had the Black Wall Street and this all over
the country happening. I mean, this did not change until
Birth of a Nation. And I don't know if you
read that in that, but that's why I was so
(11:09):
excited to launch the book last week in Martha's Vineyard
at the African American Film Festival, because it is the
complete opposite of what was happening in Hollywood one hundred
years ago with Birth of a Nation that depicted us
as ignorant, subhuman sexual predators. And you know, it's scolded
(11:34):
white people who thought maybe we should reach out. You know,
they're trying to figure out what to do. You were
a slave one day and now you're a business the
next day. They're patronizing you. There, some people are just
they're good people. And so this film scolded them and
said to them, listen, if you patronize these businesses or
(11:58):
if you have any put your sympathy for black people,
you shouldn't. And then for others who hated us, it
gave them the license to just kill us.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
And instilled more fear in them as to why they
should never give us any political powers.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I mean, the fear is still here today. And that
was the rebirth of the klu Kux Klan, you know this,
And because it was economically so successful, it was really
like the beginning of Hollywood. So Hollywood was birthed with
this racial movie about black people. So now to be
(12:40):
in Martha's vineyard and to go to all of those
black films that really tell the truth about us. You know,
all the women aren't skinny with long blonde hair. Yeah,
you know what I mean. I went to see Ebony Canal,
which is about the problem we're having with black women pregnancy,
(13:04):
getting pregnant, delivering healthy children, and our children living past
a year, you know, and I was so glad to
see that the women really did look black. Nothing was sanitized.
And that's what we have to do is tell our stories.
And that's what our book does. It's a receipt.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I'm glad that you brought the TV part of it
up because I remember when they were going to turn
your story into a television show, Yeah, with paramount, and
I'm like, that's never probably now right, But it's because
when you but when you showcase these type of stories,
and I'm glad we were able to publish the book,
but when you showcase these type of stories, it provides
(13:46):
inspiration because the exact opposite of what films like.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
The Birth of a Nation opposite, yes, yeah, because that
was detrimental. I mean, because of that, I believe it's
the root of Tulsa being and you know, Chester, Pennsylvania,
all across the nation where black people were thriving. If
they had just left us alone right now, this picture
would be totally different, absolutely than it is today. So anyway,
(14:15):
I do have.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
To ask, you know, when I speak to a lot
of black company owners and construction company owners, they say,
one of the hardest things is these companies don't pay
out when they're supposed to, right. So it's like, you know,
let's say they have a net thirty, net sixty, net ninety,
We're supposed to get paid in these times, and it's
like a lot of times they feel like, especially with
the black companies, they don't have the necessarily the money
(14:36):
to hold until they actually do get paid. Do you
have to deal with that a lot when it comes
to these these companies when you're building these things and
things like that, because a lot of companies actually fold
because they're old money and they just can't survive.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You got to read the book. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
No, that's that's definitely a problem.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Okay when you and it seemed like it seems like
it has happens to us more than others.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Well, yeah, they but okay, so The bottom line is,
real estate and construction is a capital intense business, right,
you got to have some serious money, some serious relationship.
If you're building airports, schools, you know, anything in New York.
I mean renovating a kitchen is a million dollars in
New York. Okay, so you crazy, you gotta have money.
(15:29):
And so it's very difficult to bridge that gap as
a new contractor coming in. And so what we do
is we create what's called an impress account. So let's
take JFK Terminal one, and you know, this is the
difference between having, you know, having black ownership at the
(15:51):
top of the food chain because we have Jim Rentals,
Lou Capital, and Magic Magic Johnson. But we were able
to do an impress account, meaning we could pay contractors
extremely quickly before thirty days. Because the bottom line is,
(16:11):
if your construction is faulty in any way, you're gonna
see it. As long as you're inspecting on a regular basis,
you're gonna see if there's a problem. So if a contractor,
you know, gets paid a little bit more and they
still have to come back and fix something, so what
that's the contractors are used to tearing down the wall
(16:32):
and putting it back up as long as you catch it.
And so that helps contractors a lot, because cash flow
is extremely important here because if you miss your union
dues by a few days, your workers don't show up
and the union doesn't mess around with that. They want
their union dues and they want the union to be paid.
(16:55):
So you got to pay for that. You got to
get your materials to the job. So when you're a contractors,
a lot of that money is flowing from you to
other sources, if it's your payroll, if it's your equipment
or what have you, and you're only keeping a fraction
of it to yourself. And so if you don't get
(17:16):
paid on time, or if you have to borrow money,
that's eating into your actual profit. And so yeah, that
is a serious problem access to capital.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
What's the most difficult thing that you have to deal with?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You would say that I have to deal with company.
I mean, you know, it's it's the same. It just
never changes, you know most of the time. Especially when
I first came to New York, I'd walk into the room.
I'm the only woman, definitely the only black woman. I
was never expected to lead anything. People don't want your opinion,
(17:51):
don't want your advice, and you know, it's kind of
a nuisance, like what are you doing here? And so
just getting over all of that and saying, you know, listen,
I'm going to lean into my legacy. I'm going to
lean into delivering on time, on budget, with excellence, and
(18:14):
I'm going to let my work speak for me. And
that is how I built my reputation in New York
over the years. You know, it's an interesting thing. I'm
the New York Building Congress is the premier club in
New York City when it comes to real estate, construction
and design. And I have been going to their galas
(18:36):
for years. And the first gala I went to was
over thirty years ago. It was in the eighties, and
I remember being the only black woman. I remember seeing
five hundred white men in suits and a couple of
white women. And you know, I'm thinking to myself, how
am I ever going to make it in this city
(18:58):
if these are the people that I have to rely
on to get my work. I have to tell you,
fifteen years in, my husband said to me, Cheryl, stopped
running up to these people and telling them who you are.
You need to just lay back they know who you
are now, and I'm like, he doesn't know what he's
talking about. I'm never bringing him to one of these.
(19:23):
Sure Enough, the next event, I'm like, you know what,
I'm going to try what he said. So I just
stood there instead of running over to people, Hey, my
name is Cheryl McKissick. How you doing nothing? They were
coming to me. And so, you know, you establish yourself
over time. Now here we are, thirty some years later,
(19:43):
I'm interviewing right now to be chair of the Building Congress. Wow,
the lead of the Building Congress, which has to be
approved by the governor. I don't know which mayor, but
these things can happen. But you know, you have to constantly.
(20:07):
You have to be persistent, prepared, you have to persevere,
and you have to be on purpose.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
When do you know when do you know how to, like,
like your husband said, like sit back, but or when
do you know how to like kind of like poke
your chest out and be like okay, but do you
know who I am?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Like?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
What's that like balance for you? Because in the book
you talk about it was early on, but there was
a time where you were fighting for a certain percentage
of a partnership and they played with you a little
bit about what you could and couldn't do right, But
like now it's different because you have so much more
under your belt, Like when do you know how to
fold or hold them?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Like?
Speaker 5 (20:40):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
No, I know exactly what you mean. And you know
it's really you're gonna have to like pay attention to
what's happening in the room, or have someone who cares
about you in the room paying attention because in the beginning,
no one knows who you are, so you do have
to kiss the rings. You gotta pay homage, You gotta
let people, you know, get to experience who you are
(21:03):
as a person. But after a while, after you've contributed
and after you know people for a while, then you
shouldn't have to do that. You know, I'm in new
circles quite a bit now, but my reputation proceeds my well,
(21:25):
you know, me entering the room. So I'd like to
say I try and hold back and just relax and
talk to everyone just like they're anyone. But sometimes I
feel like I have to go over and introduce myself
and whoever is if it's an a warthrope and it
(21:45):
or if it's someone who looks like they don't want
to talk to you, that's exactly who. That's exactly who
I will run up to and talk to. But it's
not everybody. It's not everybody you talked to.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Just about some of the challenges you faced when y'all
were involved with the Barclay Center in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You know, that was when I look back on that experience,
it was probably one of the best because I remember
sitting just watching TV and hearing Bruce Radner was going
to buy this team and build this arena. And I
knew Brooklyn was, you know, had a high percentage of
(22:28):
African Americans, and that the politicians there were strong and
they were going to make sure that minorities or African
Americans were a part of this development. And so I
remember just thinking, Okay, let me make a list of
all the black politicians, ministers, people who run organizations, and
(22:53):
I'm going out and I'm meeting all of them. And
in the first four or five I met Bertha Lewis,
and you talking about a force of nature. I mean,
Berta Lewis was well respected because if you didn't respect her,
she was gonna pickt your sight. And I mean really
turn it out. So she became really good friends with
(23:17):
Bruce Ratner. She had a real knack for finding compromise.
You know, some people are all or nothing. She found
great compromise and so people like Bruce Ratner respected her.
And the next thing i know, she's flying around on
his plane and I'm like, okay, she's in. I know
(23:40):
I'm in. And that's how it works. You know, it's
important that we really work together as a race. You know,
all of us working together will make a difference. You know,
like Charlemagne you saying I will publish your book. That
is black solidarity. That is really working together. That is
(24:05):
when black people I can go in a room and
I can talk about you and you're not there, and
I can say something positive and support you. That's what
we need to happen all the time. We need sponsors
at high levels doing that all the time. The Gym
Rentals and Magic Johnson's, I can't talk about them enough
(24:28):
and what they've done. We're at a billion dollars at
JFK Terminal one spent with MWBE firms because of their leadership,
their risk. It was a risk for them to own
this airport and putting their money where their mouth is,
and so we were able to help local black firms
(24:50):
and queens in Manhattan and Brooklyn. I mean, it's a
beautiful story I can go back to. And this is
in the book. And I know I'm talking about Barkley Areno,
hadn't forgotten this is it because I could go five
different ways of One time I was in Martha's vineyard
for the launch of the book and Wendy and George
(25:12):
Van Ampsen walked in. So Wendy and George are in
my book because when I had my first payroll that
I could not make, I called five black investment bankers
and they all gave me money. They all let me
borrow money from them. And they were two of them,
(25:33):
and first I got the wife first, and she said,
I'm gonna make George write you a check too, you know.
And that's how we have to do it. We have
to work together. And so Barkley Arena is that story,
you know, working with Lindelle McMillan. Oh god, I'm trying
(25:53):
to Roger Green, black politician back then. You know, they
went into Bruce rad I nerved with Bertha Lewis and
they said, listen, we don't care who you bring in
on the majority side, but you're going to work with
Chisic and mckissic because that's who we want, because we
know that they're going to pay it for it. They're
(26:14):
going to make sure our community goes to work. And
so Barkley Arena is like all of that coming together,
Black solidarity coming together and making it happen.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
If you could.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Change one policy tomorrow, the level of the plan field
for black owned construction firms, What would it be and why?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I would get rid of personal net worth goals, which
we've gotten rid of pretty much in the city. In
the is it in the city. I think it's yes.
In the city, there is no personal net worth goal,
meaning there are thresholds to be certified as an MWBE.
(27:00):
And for the state of New York, I want to
say it's fifteen million dollars excluding your business, excluding your home.
Your network can't be more than that. If you want
to be an MWBE. If you go to Tennessee, Florida, DC,
that number is like a million two. So like black
(27:25):
investment bankers, they can get certified as mwbes, and so
you know, I feel like that would help a lot,
and we got rid of some of these thresholds because
what happens, and this is in the book too, you're
too small to be big and too big to be small,
and so that really hurts firms over a period of time.
(27:49):
And then you know, I think capital is another important things,
not a policy, but well it is, you know, because
if you think about the pension funds, you know, and
every state has one, well they're the ones supplying all
of the venture capitalist money. And out of all the
(28:11):
venture capitalist money out there, you know, firms of color
have less than one point two percent, and so that
needs to change. You know, we we we need the capital.
I mean, you know, you see all these big developers,
you know, developing these projects. They're not using their money,
(28:32):
they're using other people's money. But we don't have access
to that, and so we can't build that long term wealth.
You know, and you've had Don here. You know, Don
Don talks a lot about that because that's that's his business,
but that should be all of our business, you know, ownership.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Speaking of Don, what happened with the Freedom Tower?
Speaker 4 (28:52):
You you kind of you gloss over it in the
book a little bit, like what exactly happened with the
Freedom Tower.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Why is it happened?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You don't talk about I want to drink some water.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
I was going to ask you just mentioned with the
payroll situation, you had relationships that you could call. You
talk a lot about watching your mom navigate rooms and
building relationships and what that taught you today. What are
like some of the biggest things that you still remember
from what your mom taught you to help you every
day in business.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
My mom taught me not to be afraid of anybody,
to be afraid of her, just like a black mother.
No she's not. She's not afraid of any anybody. But
she taught me that. And I don't mean you know
when I say afraid, just don't feel like they're better
(29:48):
than you or that you have nothing to offer them.
Always walk up to people and say hello, introduce yourself,
and not worry about out what they look like. And
I tell a story in there about Gentry Krow, who
was this old, old white man who was running the
(30:09):
State of Tennessee's school district. And I had been working
with my mom now for over a year, and so
she was teaching me how to do business development and
how to sell our business and so I had watched
her for a year and so this day she said,
you're gonna go in and you are going to do
(30:30):
the sales pitch. So I mean, I had never done
that before, and I was scared to death. Like my
daughter back here, she's scared to death. She's like, Mommy,
I could never do what you do. I'm like, I
was just like you, just like you and mom. I
got into that room, I was shaking like a leaf.
(30:51):
But I looked at my mother and she raised her eyebrow.
I'm like, I'm more scared of her than I am
with him. And I started talking to He never lifted
his head. His head was down like this the whole time,
and I mean he had a road map in his face,
and I'm like, this dude is not feeling me. But anyway,
(31:14):
I was like, I'm just gonna get it out. So
I do the pitch and he stands up. He says,
come over here, young lady. So I go over to
him and grasp my hand. He said, I absolutely want
to do business with you. He didn't say anything the
whole time, and I looked at my mom looked at
me like, I told you, yeah, yeah, Because well she
(31:35):
knew him. I didn't, and so that taught me a lot,
you know, like you don't really know what people are
thinking just by the way they look, you know. Yeah,
he was an old white man in rural South with
you know, racism and everything going on. But he had
(31:55):
a respect for my mother and the mcisics, and he
did business with us. She also taught me how to
solve problems. We went to Tuskegee University to open a
building and the president walked up to mom and said,
(32:16):
you know, Ms McKissick, two years ago when I told
you to design this place, I told you it gets
hot and we need operable windows. He said, I don't
have one operable window in this building. They all will
not open, so we're going to suffocate in here. So
my mom looked at him, she said, no, you're not.
(32:38):
We're going to fix that. I'm going to pay to
have every window removed. So now he's happy. She's not
that happy. But we're walking through the campus and so
Mom sees this old building dilapidated. They're literally keeping line
furniture there and says, I see you living there, doctor Peyton.
(33:04):
And doctor Peyton said, huh, he said, She said aren't
you looking for a new residence? And he was, so
Mom understood that he needed a problem solved, and so
she said, let's go in there. So she goes in
and she sells him on. You know, it's a stately
building with this beautiful coppola at the top, and she says,
(33:25):
we're gonna call it great columns. She said, you're gonna
live here, And so she had to pay for the windows,
but she also got another project all at the same time.
And I just watched her to move through all of that,
you know, because she wasn't an architect, she wasn't a contractor.
(33:46):
She probably couldn't even mix concrete. But she understood how
to deal with the psychology of people.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
And she took over to business during the time where
like women didn't have a lot of the respect that
men did in business.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
No, it was hard for her. Yep, she took over
in the eighties. The Women's Business Act came about in
nineteen ninety, so that before the Women's Buildings Uh Business Act,
women couldn't borrow money. And so so you said, sitting
there and be broke, your uncle, could would you say,
(34:18):
sit down and be broke? You can't tell you. Let
me get find out. But just think about it. This
was in nineteen ninety That's when Spike Lee's first movie
came out. This was yesterday. We were doing the butt.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Don't excite him. It was a dance off the dance.
Now what you're thinking.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
About, I don't want to excite you.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Do you know who's saying that song? Yeah? Now making sure.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
I don't know if they played it with I don't know.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
I know that.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Go ahead toward university continue, But I'm.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Just saying that was just yesterday in our world. You know,
I don't even think there was an internet in nineteen ninety, right, Okay,
so women are just coming on the scene at that
point and considered business women. But listen, my mother knew
(35:22):
how to operate, She knew how to move, and I
learned that from her.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
The thing I like a lot too about the black
family who built America. We're talking to Cheryl McKissick. Is
you also You've lived a life and I want you
to talk about that. How important is it for people
just to live life? Because you talk about why you
didn't drink, then you talk about why you started to
get a little drink. Then you start talking about how
you like you like the boys especially, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Just speak to the importance of also living a life.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yes, well yeah, our motto and our family is half fun,
play hard, work hard, and then play hard. And then
my pastor A. R. Bernard has another saying and he's like,
I do what I have to do now so I
can do what I want to do later. And that's
really the way you have to live life. I mean,
(36:17):
if you're going to achieve anything and really enjoy those
moments with your family and your friends without any cares
in the world, you got to take care of what
your business is first. And so we were able to
live life that way. We grew up in a small
neighborhood in Nashville, Tennessee, and you know, we knew everyone
(36:39):
on our block and so you know, our regular day
was after we did our homework, we could go outside
and play with our friends, you know, kickball, whatever. It
was innocent. Okay, did you get a galley? Okay, so
(37:01):
the galley has it all. We took some of that
stuff out. Uh no, So it was fun, I mean.
And then showing up on Howard University's campus and after
being at an all white school from first grade all
the way to twelfth grade. I thought I had died
(37:23):
and gone to heaven. You know, everyone was black in
DC at that time. You know the U Street all
around uh Howard University. It's not like that now, but
back then, that's how it was. And so you know,
we had our own shops, our clubs, you know, La Cafe, Tiffany's,
(37:46):
the fox Trap. You know, it was amazing trap, the
Fox Trap. Look it up. It's still out there. It's
still out there.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
At the community, it was all community.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
It was all community, and every body got along. I mean,
you know, from the higher echelons to you know, the
janitors and you know what the cleaning ladies. I mean,
it was everyone was together. And I mean all the time.
(38:18):
We go on the weekends out, you know, to our
late property and the parties would just roll.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Yeah, and I enjoyed it because you said, you that's
what you grew up seeing, even in your house, like
that's what your parents used to do in their house,
and white people all would have a good.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Time, that's right. Yeah. And you know my mother would
credit herself and that's how she would help my father
win his work because she would tell him, bring your
clients home. We're gonna have a nice gourmet meal at home.
And then she'd have me and my twin sister, you know,
(38:51):
laying out the china.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So you learn a lot when you're doing those types
of things. And then we're just sitting there listening. Yeah,
we're hearing the transactions taking place. And so it was quick, good,
great life and building business relationships, building really good relationships. Yeah,
relationships are key.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
I was going to say, talk speaking to relationships a
lot of the projects that you do. You talk so
much in the book about the w the MWBE and
bring it in other black contractors but also women contractors
from that organization. Can you talk about the MWBE and
the importance of it and what it did for you
in business?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Sure? So I'm the first generation that certified as an MWBE,
and that was here in New York City. So I
had a strategy. My strategy was to figure out which
of the agencies had the most money for capital programs,
(39:50):
picked three and work those three. And that's what I did.
And so the only way to get in was having
an MWBE certification. But that meant you had to be
a sub excuse me a subconsultant to a larger contractor,
and at the time, let me say, the mwbe goos
(40:11):
were probably like less than ten percent, but it was
fine because construction in New York is very complicated, and
so we needed I needed to make sure I really
understood what I was doing, how to get through the
building department and bull permits, how to work with the unions,
(40:34):
what's in contracts, all these things that are extremely important
if you're going to conduct business successfully. And so I
didn't mind working as a sub to say a Turner
construction of Skanskat Construction. All the large companies at the time,
so really I was selling myself to them, and not
(40:54):
necessarily to the direct client until later. But the plan
was once I understood how the game was played, to
then make sure I got to a prime role. So
to take those programs and use them to learn a client,
to learn a business, I think is great. But the
(41:16):
ultimate goal is you have to get to the point
where you have your own prime contracts, because that's when
you get to charge your own destiny. You know, that's
where you get to really build a strong team of
individuals in your company. It's hard to attract good people.
(41:37):
When you're taking that person and you're telling that one
or two employee of yours, I need if you go
to go work in someone else's shop for the next
two years instead of my shop. But when I'm in
control of the project, they're working in my shop. So
that's how you use those programs.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
What structural changes are still needed for minority on firms
like to compete.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
On equal footing? What what structural changes are needed?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I keep going back to access to capital. We yeah,
that that has to happen. And then there's another dynamic
in New York that is insurance base. Because of the
scaffolding law here, our insurance is exponentially higher than any
other state in the United States, and it's it's prohibitive
(42:37):
if you're a small firm, because you know, how do
you pay a million dollar policy and you don't even
have a project yet, right, But you can't get a
project unless you have a policy, unless you have an
insurance you know, certificate, and so the insurance We've got
(42:58):
to deal with that, and it's costing all of us
a lot of money. And so it's not just a
minority women owned business problem. It's a problem across the
board in New York City, so that that definitely needs
to change.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Tell us about the merch that they asked.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Okay that y'all didn't bring us by the way, yea,
I know. We ran out in the vineyard. Everybody. Everybody
wanted a T shirt and it is it's really catchy.
But they ask and the back says who built this?
And the reason why that significant is because people walk
(43:41):
in their own church, they can walk in a hospital,
walk through a train station. People can say, oh, it's
it feels nice. I like this environment, but no one says, well,
who built this? No one asked a question who designed this?
You know, is there a connection action between Terminal one
(44:02):
and j f K and LaGuardia Central Terminal, Like who
who built this? And so we want to bring awareness
to that, for people to say who built this and
for people to get interested in the real estate design
and construction profession. And of course we say we did. Mckisic.
(44:26):
That's amazing, that's amazing. We always does that, though he
does ask like where we go? I want who built this? Please?
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Please?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
It's not even don't even get that he asked that
all the time. To go to museums, we go to
say he who built this? Like maybe he has a
you know, he likes construction. Do you think she was going.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Because a little bit.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, we just ordered five hundred T shirts because we're
going to invest Fest. I know that's right. So you
will all get your T shirts before we go down there, please,
because you ain't gonna leave with none.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
In Atlanta. You'll be doing a fireside chat with miss
Basketball at invest Fest this year. It'll be on Friday Friday,
the twenty.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Friday twenty second, five o'clock.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
The Black Family Who Built America.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
We appreciate you for joining us so much.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
The book is available everywhere you buy books right now
from Cheryl mckissack.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Daniel. You are black history, right.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
You know we always be reading stuff in history books
and you know, wondering who these people were. We got living,
breathing black history sitting with us every day still out here.
So we need to celebrate it, appreciate it, learn about it,
and know about it. So when they ask who built it,
you could be like.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Oh, I know her, I just saw her. That's what
I'm telling I love it.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I love it. I'm an asked me. I'm gonna tell
my husband next time Cheryl m kissing baby. I know that,
I know, tell him that no time, right out of
some water. Yes, I wants to go and design and construction.
Come see me all right.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
When you need a job, you got her, I know her.
She hired my uncle.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Jesus christ Is.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Sharon mckisey, thank you so much for joining us. Pick
up the book The Black Family Who Built America Breakfast
Club good Morning.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Every day a week ago.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Click your ass up the Breakfast Club you don't finish
for y'all done.
Every day up the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Done morning, everybody, it's the j env just hilarious. Charlamagne,
the gud We are the breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Lawn.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
La Rosa is here with us as well, and we
got a special guest in the building.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
A new book is.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Out right now, The Black Family who built America. Ladies
and gentlemen, she's back, Cheryl McKissick, Daniel, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, how you feeling excited? Welcome back, thank you,
thank you, to see you. Good to see you too.
You look younger. I love that. Okay, whatever he's doing,
I need some of that.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So for people that didn't hear when you came up
here last time, I didn't read the book yet, explain
what your family has done for this country, The Black
family who built America. Break it down from your great
great grandfather, how he started and where it came from.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Moses Moses MCIs okay, So let me start with saying,
I am the proud CEO of a fifth generation business
in America. And I know Charlemagne keeps calling it seven generations.
He's just calling in the girl behind me, okay, and
her children, my.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Grandkids, got in trouble for today, she was one of
the producers.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Like it's.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Because that's what it's going to be. That's right, it's manifesting.
So we date back two hundred and thirty years in
this country, uh, starting with the first descent of our family,
Moses mcisick the first, who came to this country in
seventeen ninety as a slave and was taught to trade
of making brick. His son was Moses mcizick the second,
(01:39):
and he was a master carpenter and he actually started
in North Carolina, but he was given as a gift
to the Cheers family in Nashville, Tennessee with spring Hill,
and so that's when the mcisicks moved from North Carolina
to Tennessee. He had seven girls in this seven boys,
(02:01):
and his first son is Moses mcizick the third and
his brother Calvin, and they became the first black licensed
architects in America. Sure you don't want that one to do.
And anyway, they were known because they traveled all through
(02:23):
the Northeast and the South. They built over six thousand churches,
they built thirteen fourteen historically black colleges, all the colleges,
all the buildings at Fisk University are pretty much designed
by Calvin and Moses mcizick. Maharry Medical School, Tennessee State University.
(02:49):
What's the one that tusky? And so they worked all
through the South. They also got an opportunity to go
to Haiti and work with paper Papa Doc and then
over to Africa. So these men were very innovative. And
the company was then passed down to my father, William G.
(03:11):
Barry McKissick. And so now we're four generations in if
you haven't lost count all right. And then the company
was passed down to my mother, who was a Fears
leader by herself, and then eventually I stepped in and
took over the company as the fifth generation.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You know what I love about that? And I joke
with my kids all the time, right, and I said,
you know, when I passed, I said, I'm gonna leave everything.
I said, but there's one thing that I need And
I said, I want to put a family portrait of
me and my wife in the house. And they said,
well why, I said, a lot of times in our
family we forget about grandfather's great grandfathers and what they've
(03:51):
established and brought to us because it's like time moved so.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Fast, especially with a great grandparents.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So the fact that you can break down all that
you know, your kids will be able to break down
that down. Your grandkids will be able to break that down.
And that's something that I feel like we miss. You know,
when people pass, you know, we're sad and then we
forget about it. But these are the people that started
our lives, started generational wealth. We talk about all the time,
(04:16):
and I feel like, especially in black families, we should
have that, we should know. Like I don't know my
great grandfather. I don't know much about him because my
grandfather didn't talk about him and my parents didn't talk
about him. But it's one of those things. It's like
we move on. And I love the fact that that
is so built into your family that y'all keep talking
about it, you keep mentioning, and you keep talking about
the great things that your family has done.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You know, what you just said is so powerful. But
it's so easy to record what's happening in your family.
Just do a family tree. Just start a family tree
with the individuals that you do know. I remember, being
like nine or ten years old, my mother said, look
at this, we just found the family tree, and I'm like,
(05:02):
I was fascinated by it. So that was the beginning
of me really trying to get this story out. I
remember taking that family tree to my father's office and
turning it into a real structural plan. I mean, it
was like as huge as a blueprint for a building
(05:23):
because it dated back to my great great grandfather. But
I kept losing it kept I mean I totally redid it,
beautiful print and everything, and can't find it. So now
when it's time to do the book, I'm like, well,
the one thing we need is a family tree because
people will getting lost in the shuffle of reading all
(05:44):
of this. So a couple of weeks ago, I go
visit my mother and I'm cleaning out one of her
George and bam, the original one I saw the very beginning.
That's God. And so what I would say to everyone,
it's just start writing it down and have someone responsible
(06:04):
to keep it in racket. That is why we ended
up giving a lot of our artifacts to the African
American Museum on the Mall because I kept losing the
original license. Well you put them in your office, you know.
Actually we store them and we make replicas of the
license and of the pictures and things like that. But
(06:28):
then when it comes time when you move, you're like,
oh my god, where is it? I told Chan my
pr consult I said, Chan, I am tired of losing this.
What are we gonna do?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Sai?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We're gonna give it to the museum and they will
keep it forever. And so that's that's important that you know,
we keep up with our family legacy because everyone has one.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
You see what all the time with you know when
you see white people like they do it all the time, right,
like love them, I hate them. You know who Donald
Trump's father is, right? You know who Donald Trump's grandfather is, right,
because he talks about them all the time. You hear
the story about his his father that gave.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Him a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You hear those stories.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Easy though, But a lot of times the great great
grandparents that you end up losing track of your father
and your grandparents.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That's easy because that's generate.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Trump's son and Trump's grandson will always know about the
grandfather that gave Donald Trump the million.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Dollars to start his Somebody knows them though, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
But you know those stories always talk because you hear
about the stories that we need to talk about hours more.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
I think it's a little different for us too, because
like when my grandmother, she always talks about how like
they weren't they didn't keep record or things because they
just it wasn't something that was normal in the household,
Like you didn't have pictures of certain people, you didn't,
so then that gets passed down. It's just something you
don't know to do.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Also, as black people, they just didn't care about us
enough to give us our records, records. They threw them out,
threw them out, they didn't care. But I still think
you can find it. It's just genealogy and getting the
genealogists to help you, you know, go through it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I mean we went back well with Nick Childs. We
went back to spring Hill, Tennessee, and went through records
of you know, the slaves that were actually working on
the mcisock house and the Cheers house, and there were records,
you know. I mean they try to erase them, but
they can't, I mean their graves. So I think everyone
(08:21):
can contract their family history.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I want to ask when I read this book and
I see how this empire started in the eighteen hundreds.
It reminds me of how resilient Black people are. We
can navigate our way through anything. So it gave me
a sense of hope, especially for the times that we're
in now. Has it always given you that's in surprise?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah? I mean, you know, if you think about it,
one in five businesses fail the first year. Sixty five
percent fell in ten years, and the average family business
only lasts twenty four years. Now, the chances for a
family business to pass down to a second generation is
(09:00):
like sixty percent. The chances of it passing to a
third is fourteen And I mean to a third is
fourteen percent, and to a fourth generation is three percent.
So here we are at five generations. And so I
think what we do in the book is we make
a case as to how the Mechusics were able to
(09:21):
do that, and it goes all the way back to slavery.
So slavery was different in every state, you know, like
North Carolina was probably the most lenient of slaves at
the time compared to let's say Alabama and some other
states South Carolina, South Carolina, and really it's because they
(09:42):
didn't have as many of the huge plantations slave masters
have more like twelve thirteen, fourteen fifteen slaves. So the
slaves were more like extended family. They weren't really they
didn't have to be suppressed because just think about it.
We went to spring hilltonnes Sea, and we saw a
plantation where there was a family of five people, but
(10:05):
there were three hundred slaves working for them. So who
had the power, right, So you have to suppress the
three hundred people if you want to survive. And so
it wasn't like that in North Carolina. So we make
that case that you know, the leniency of slavery in
(10:26):
that state must have helped the mcisocks get to where
they are. And then the fact that slave masters after
slavery still needed the craft and services that we provided,
so they put us in business. And so the mckusicks
were put in business by their slave masters. Moses mciswick
(10:48):
the second had his first company. And so you know,
this was during the time where we had Tulsa, so
we had the Black Wall Street and this all over
the country happening. I mean, this did not change until
Birth of a Nation. And I don't know if you
read that in that, but that's why I was so
(11:09):
excited to launch the book last week in Martha's Vineyard
at the African American Film Festival, because it is the
complete opposite of what was happening in Hollywood one hundred
years ago with Birth of a Nation that depicted us
as ignorant, subhuman sexual predators. And you know, it's scolded
(11:34):
white people who thought maybe we should reach out. You know,
they're trying to figure out what to do. You were
a slave one day and now you're a business the
next day. They're patronizing you. There, some people are just
they're good people. And so this film scolded them and
said to them, listen, if you patronize these businesses or
(11:58):
if you have any put your sympathy for black people,
you shouldn't. And then for others who hated us, it
gave them the license to just kill us.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
And instilled more fear in them as to why they
should never give us any political powers.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I mean, the fear is still here today. And that
was the rebirth of the klu Kux Klan, you know this,
And because it was economically so successful, it was really
like the beginning of Hollywood. So Hollywood was birthed with
this racial movie about black people. So now to be
(12:40):
in Martha's vineyard and to go to all of those
black films that really tell the truth about us. You know,
all the women aren't skinny with long blonde hair. Yeah,
you know what I mean. I went to see Ebony Canal,
which is about the problem we're having with black women pregnancy,
(13:04):
getting pregnant, delivering healthy children, and our children living past
a year, you know, and I was so glad to
see that the women really did look black. Nothing was sanitized.
And that's what we have to do is tell our stories.
And that's what our book does. It's a receipt.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I'm glad that you brought the TV part of it
up because I remember when they were going to turn
your story into a television show, Yeah, with paramount, and
I'm like, that's never probably now right, But it's because
when you but when you showcase these type of stories,
and I'm glad we were able to publish the book,
but when you showcase these type of stories, it provides
(13:46):
inspiration because the exact opposite of what films like.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
The Birth of a Nation opposite, yes, yeah, because that
was detrimental. I mean, because of that, I believe it's
the root of Tulsa being and you know, Chester, Pennsylvania,
all across the nation where black people were thriving. If
they had just left us alone right now, this picture
would be totally different, absolutely than it is today. So anyway,
(14:15):
I do have.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
To ask, you know, when I speak to a lot
of black company owners and construction company owners, they say,
one of the hardest things is these companies don't pay
out when they're supposed to, right. So it's like, you know,
let's say they have a net thirty, net sixty, net ninety,
We're supposed to get paid in these times, and it's
like a lot of times they feel like, especially with
the black companies, they don't have the necessarily the money
(14:36):
to hold until they actually do get paid. Do you
have to deal with that a lot when it comes
to these these companies when you're building these things and
things like that, because a lot of companies actually fold
because they're old money and they just can't survive.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You got to read the book. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
No, that's that's definitely a problem.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Okay when you and it seemed like it seems like
it has happens to us more than others.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Well, yeah, they but okay, so The bottom line is,
real estate and construction is a capital intense business, right,
you got to have some serious money, some serious relationship.
If you're building airports, schools, you know, anything in New York.
I mean renovating a kitchen is a million dollars in
New York. Okay, so you crazy, you gotta have money.
(15:29):
And so it's very difficult to bridge that gap as
a new contractor coming in. And so what we do
is we create what's called an impress account. So let's
take JFK Terminal one, and you know, this is the
difference between having, you know, having black ownership at the
(15:51):
top of the food chain because we have Jim Rentals,
Lou Capital, and Magic Magic Johnson. But we were able
to do an impress account, meaning we could pay contractors
extremely quickly before thirty days. Because the bottom line is,
(16:11):
if your construction is faulty in any way, you're gonna
see it. As long as you're inspecting on a regular basis,
you're gonna see if there's a problem. So if a contractor,
you know, gets paid a little bit more and they
still have to come back and fix something, so what
that's the contractors are used to tearing down the wall
(16:32):
and putting it back up as long as you catch it.
And so that helps contractors a lot, because cash flow
is extremely important here because if you miss your union
dues by a few days, your workers don't show up
and the union doesn't mess around with that. They want
their union dues and they want the union to be paid.
(16:55):
So you got to pay for that. You got to
get your materials to the job. So when you're a contractors,
a lot of that money is flowing from you to
other sources, if it's your payroll, if it's your equipment
or what have you, and you're only keeping a fraction
of it to yourself. And so if you don't get
(17:16):
paid on time, or if you have to borrow money,
that's eating into your actual profit. And so yeah, that
is a serious problem access to capital.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
What's the most difficult thing that you have to deal with?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
You would say that I have to deal with company.
I mean, you know, it's it's the same. It just
never changes, you know most of the time. Especially when
I first came to New York, I'd walk into the room.
I'm the only woman, definitely the only black woman. I
was never expected to lead anything. People don't want your opinion,
(17:51):
don't want your advice, and you know, it's kind of
a nuisance, like what are you doing here? And so
just getting over all of that and saying, you know, listen,
I'm going to lean into my legacy. I'm going to
lean into delivering on time, on budget, with excellence, and
(18:14):
I'm going to let my work speak for me. And
that is how I built my reputation in New York
over the years. You know, it's an interesting thing. I'm
the New York Building Congress is the premier club in
New York City when it comes to real estate, construction
and design. And I have been going to their galas
(18:36):
for years. And the first gala I went to was
over thirty years ago. It was in the eighties, and
I remember being the only black woman. I remember seeing
five hundred white men in suits and a couple of
white women. And you know, I'm thinking to myself, how
am I ever going to make it in this city
(18:58):
if these are the people that I have to rely
on to get my work. I have to tell you,
fifteen years in, my husband said to me, Cheryl, stopped
running up to these people and telling them who you are.
You need to just lay back they know who you
are now, and I'm like, he doesn't know what he's
talking about. I'm never bringing him to one of these.
(19:23):
Sure Enough, the next event, I'm like, you know what,
I'm going to try what he said. So I just
stood there instead of running over to people, Hey, my
name is Cheryl McKissick. How you doing nothing? They were
coming to me. And so, you know, you establish yourself
over time. Now here we are, thirty some years later,
(19:43):
I'm interviewing right now to be chair of the Building Congress. Wow,
the lead of the Building Congress, which has to be
approved by the governor. I don't know which mayor, but
these things can happen. But you know, you have to constantly.
(20:07):
You have to be persistent, prepared, you have to persevere,
and you have to be on purpose.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
When do you know when do you know how to, like,
like your husband said, like sit back, but or when
do you know how to like kind of like poke
your chest out and be like okay, but do you
know who I am?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Like?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
What's that like balance for you? Because in the book
you talk about it was early on, but there was
a time where you were fighting for a certain percentage
of a partnership and they played with you a little
bit about what you could and couldn't do right, But
like now it's different because you have so much more
under your belt, Like when do you know how to
fold or hold them?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Like?
Speaker 5 (20:40):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
No, I know exactly what you mean. And you know
it's really you're gonna have to like pay attention to
what's happening in the room, or have someone who cares
about you in the room paying attention because in the beginning,
no one knows who you are, so you do have
to kiss the rings. You gotta pay homage, You gotta
let people, you know, get to experience who you are
(21:03):
as a person. But after a while, after you've contributed
and after you know people for a while, then you
shouldn't have to do that. You know, I'm in new
circles quite a bit now, but my reputation proceeds my well,
(21:25):
you know, me entering the room. So I'd like to
say I try and hold back and just relax and
talk to everyone just like they're anyone. But sometimes I
feel like I have to go over and introduce myself
and whoever is if it's an a warthrope and it
(21:45):
or if it's someone who looks like they don't want
to talk to you, that's exactly who. That's exactly who
I will run up to and talk to. But it's
not everybody. It's not everybody you talked to.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Just about some of the challenges you faced when y'all
were involved with the Barclay Center in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You know, that was when I look back on that experience,
it was probably one of the best because I remember
sitting just watching TV and hearing Bruce Radner was going
to buy this team and build this arena. And I
knew Brooklyn was, you know, had a high percentage of
(22:28):
African Americans, and that the politicians there were strong and
they were going to make sure that minorities or African
Americans were a part of this development. And so I
remember just thinking, Okay, let me make a list of
all the black politicians, ministers, people who run organizations, and
(22:53):
I'm going out and I'm meeting all of them. And
in the first four or five I met Bertha Lewis,
and you talking about a force of nature. I mean,
Berta Lewis was well respected because if you didn't respect her,
she was gonna pickt your sight. And I mean really
turn it out. So she became really good friends with
(23:17):
Bruce Ratner. She had a real knack for finding compromise.
You know, some people are all or nothing. She found
great compromise and so people like Bruce Ratner respected her.
And the next thing i know, she's flying around on
his plane and I'm like, okay, she's in. I know
(23:40):
I'm in. And that's how it works. You know, it's
important that we really work together as a race. You know,
all of us working together will make a difference. You know,
like Charlemagne you saying I will publish your book. That
is black solidarity. That is really working together. That is
(24:05):
when black people I can go in a room and
I can talk about you and you're not there, and
I can say something positive and support you. That's what
we need to happen all the time. We need sponsors
at high levels doing that all the time. The Gym
Rentals and Magic Johnson's, I can't talk about them enough
(24:28):
and what they've done. We're at a billion dollars at
JFK Terminal one spent with MWBE firms because of their leadership,
their risk. It was a risk for them to own
this airport and putting their money where their mouth is,
and so we were able to help local black firms
(24:50):
and queens in Manhattan and Brooklyn. I mean, it's a
beautiful story I can go back to. And this is
in the book. And I know I'm talking about Barkley Areno,
hadn't forgotten this is it because I could go five
different ways of One time I was in Martha's vineyard
for the launch of the book and Wendy and George
(25:12):
Van Ampsen walked in. So Wendy and George are in
my book because when I had my first payroll that
I could not make, I called five black investment bankers
and they all gave me money. They all let me
borrow money from them. And they were two of them,
(25:33):
and first I got the wife first, and she said,
I'm gonna make George write you a check too, you know.
And that's how we have to do it. We have
to work together. And so Barkley Arena is that story,
you know, working with Lindelle McMillan. Oh god, I'm trying
(25:53):
to Roger Green, black politician back then. You know, they
went into Bruce rad I nerved with Bertha Lewis and
they said, listen, we don't care who you bring in
on the majority side, but you're going to work with
Chisic and mckissic because that's who we want, because we
know that they're going to pay it for it. They're
(26:14):
going to make sure our community goes to work. And
so Barkley Arena is like all of that coming together,
Black solidarity coming together and making it happen.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
If you could.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Change one policy tomorrow, the level of the plan field
for black owned construction firms, What would it be and why?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I would get rid of personal net worth goals, which
we've gotten rid of pretty much in the city. In
the is it in the city. I think it's yes.
In the city, there is no personal net worth goal,
meaning there are thresholds to be certified as an MWBE.
(27:00):
And for the state of New York, I want to
say it's fifteen million dollars excluding your business, excluding your home.
Your network can't be more than that. If you want
to be an MWBE. If you go to Tennessee, Florida, DC,
that number is like a million two. So like black
(27:25):
investment bankers, they can get certified as mwbes, and so
you know, I feel like that would help a lot,
and we got rid of some of these thresholds because
what happens, and this is in the book too, you're
too small to be big and too big to be small,
and so that really hurts firms over a period of time.
(27:49):
And then you know, I think capital is another important things,
not a policy, but well it is, you know, because
if you think about the pension funds, you know, and
every state has one, well they're the ones supplying all
of the venture capitalist money. And out of all the
(28:11):
venture capitalist money out there, you know, firms of color
have less than one point two percent, and so that
needs to change. You know, we we we need the capital.
I mean, you know, you see all these big developers,
you know, developing these projects. They're not using their money,
(28:32):
they're using other people's money. But we don't have access
to that, and so we can't build that long term wealth.
You know, and you've had Don here. You know, Don
Don talks a lot about that because that's that's his business,
but that should be all of our business, you know, ownership.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Speaking of Don, what happened with the Freedom Tower?
Speaker 4 (28:52):
You you kind of you gloss over it in the
book a little bit, like what exactly happened with the
Freedom Tower.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Why is it happened?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You don't talk about I want to drink some water.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
I was going to ask you just mentioned with the
payroll situation, you had relationships that you could call. You
talk a lot about watching your mom navigate rooms and
building relationships and what that taught you today. What are
like some of the biggest things that you still remember
from what your mom taught you to help you every
day in business.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
My mom taught me not to be afraid of anybody,
to be afraid of her, just like a black mother.
No she's not. She's not afraid of any anybody. But
she taught me that. And I don't mean you know
when I say afraid, just don't feel like they're better
(29:48):
than you or that you have nothing to offer them.
Always walk up to people and say hello, introduce yourself,
and not worry about out what they look like. And
I tell a story in there about Gentry Krow, who
was this old, old white man who was running the
(30:09):
State of Tennessee's school district. And I had been working
with my mom now for over a year, and so
she was teaching me how to do business development and
how to sell our business and so I had watched
her for a year and so this day she said,
you're gonna go in and you are going to do
(30:30):
the sales pitch. So I mean, I had never done
that before, and I was scared to death. Like my
daughter back here, she's scared to death. She's like, Mommy,
I could never do what you do. I'm like, I
was just like you, just like you and mom. I
got into that room, I was shaking like a leaf.
(30:51):
But I looked at my mother and she raised her eyebrow.
I'm like, I'm more scared of her than I am
with him. And I started talking to He never lifted
his head. His head was down like this the whole time,
and I mean he had a road map in his face,
and I'm like, this dude is not feeling me. But anyway,
(31:14):
I was like, I'm just gonna get it out. So
I do the pitch and he stands up. He says,
come over here, young lady. So I go over to
him and grasp my hand. He said, I absolutely want
to do business with you. He didn't say anything the
whole time, and I looked at my mom looked at
me like, I told you, yeah, yeah, Because well she
(31:35):
knew him. I didn't, and so that taught me a lot,
you know, like you don't really know what people are
thinking just by the way they look, you know. Yeah,
he was an old white man in rural South with
you know, racism and everything going on. But he had
(31:55):
a respect for my mother and the mcisics, and he
did business with us. She also taught me how to
solve problems. We went to Tuskegee University to open a
building and the president walked up to mom and said,
(32:16):
you know, Ms McKissick, two years ago when I told
you to design this place, I told you it gets
hot and we need operable windows. He said, I don't
have one operable window in this building. They all will
not open, so we're going to suffocate in here. So
my mom looked at him, she said, no, you're not.
(32:38):
We're going to fix that. I'm going to pay to
have every window removed. So now he's happy. She's not
that happy. But we're walking through the campus and so
Mom sees this old building dilapidated. They're literally keeping line
furniture there and says, I see you living there, doctor Peyton.
(33:04):
And doctor Peyton said, huh, he said, She said aren't
you looking for a new residence? And he was, so
Mom understood that he needed a problem solved, and so
she said, let's go in there. So she goes in
and she sells him on. You know, it's a stately
building with this beautiful coppola at the top, and she says,
(33:25):
we're gonna call it great columns. She said, you're gonna
live here, And so she had to pay for the windows,
but she also got another project all at the same time.
And I just watched her to move through all of that,
you know, because she wasn't an architect, she wasn't a contractor.
(33:46):
She probably couldn't even mix concrete. But she understood how
to deal with the psychology of people.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
And she took over to business during the time where
like women didn't have a lot of the respect that
men did in business.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
No, it was hard for her. Yep, she took over
in the eighties. The Women's Business Act came about in
nineteen ninety, so that before the Women's Buildings Uh Business Act,
women couldn't borrow money. And so so you said, sitting
there and be broke, your uncle, could would you say,
(34:18):
sit down and be broke? You can't tell you. Let
me get find out. But just think about it. This
was in nineteen ninety That's when Spike Lee's first movie
came out. This was yesterday. We were doing the butt.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Don't excite him. It was a dance off the dance.
Now what you're thinking.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
About, I don't want to excite you.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Do you know who's saying that song? Yeah? Now making sure.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
I don't know if they played it with I don't know.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
I know that.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Go ahead toward university continue, But I'm.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Just saying that was just yesterday in our world. You know,
I don't even think there was an internet in nineteen ninety, right, Okay,
so women are just coming on the scene at that
point and considered business women. But listen, my mother knew
(35:22):
how to operate, She knew how to move, and I
learned that from her.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
The thing I like a lot too about the black
family who built America. We're talking to Cheryl McKissick. Is
you also You've lived a life and I want you
to talk about that. How important is it for people
just to live life? Because you talk about why you
didn't drink, then you talk about why you started to
get a little drink. Then you start talking about how
you like you like the boys especially, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Just speak to the importance of also living a life.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yes, well yeah, our motto and our family is half fun,
play hard, work hard, and then play hard. And then
my pastor A. R. Bernard has another saying and he's like,
I do what I have to do now so I
can do what I want to do later. And that's
really the way you have to live life. I mean,
(36:17):
if you're going to achieve anything and really enjoy those
moments with your family and your friends without any cares
in the world, you got to take care of what
your business is first. And so we were able to
live life that way. We grew up in a small
neighborhood in Nashville, Tennessee, and you know, we knew everyone
(36:39):
on our block and so you know, our regular day
was after we did our homework, we could go outside
and play with our friends, you know, kickball, whatever. It
was innocent. Okay, did you get a galley? Okay, so
(37:01):
the galley has it all. We took some of that
stuff out. Uh no, So it was fun, I mean.
And then showing up on Howard University's campus and after
being at an all white school from first grade all
the way to twelfth grade. I thought I had died
(37:23):
and gone to heaven. You know, everyone was black in
DC at that time. You know the U Street all
around uh Howard University. It's not like that now, but
back then, that's how it was. And so you know,
we had our own shops, our clubs, you know, La Cafe, Tiffany's,
(37:46):
the fox Trap. You know, it was amazing trap, the
Fox Trap. Look it up. It's still out there. It's
still out there.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
At the community, it was all community.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
It was all community, and every body got along. I mean,
you know, from the higher echelons to you know, the
janitors and you know what the cleaning ladies. I mean,
it was everyone was together. And I mean all the time.
(38:18):
We go on the weekends out, you know, to our
late property and the parties would just roll.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Yeah, and I enjoyed it because you said, you that's
what you grew up seeing, even in your house, like
that's what your parents used to do in their house,
and white people all would have a good.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Time, that's right. Yeah. And you know my mother would
credit herself and that's how she would help my father
win his work because she would tell him, bring your
clients home. We're gonna have a nice gourmet meal at home.
And then she'd have me and my twin sister, you know,
(38:51):
laying out the china.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So you learn a lot when you're doing those types
of things. And then we're just sitting there listening. Yeah,
we're hearing the transactions taking place. And so it was quick, good,
great life and building business relationships, building really good relationships. Yeah,
relationships are key.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
I was going to say, talk speaking to relationships a
lot of the projects that you do. You talk so
much in the book about the w the MWBE and
bring it in other black contractors but also women contractors
from that organization. Can you talk about the MWBE and
the importance of it and what it did for you
in business?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Sure? So I'm the first generation that certified as an MWBE,
and that was here in New York City. So I
had a strategy. My strategy was to figure out which
of the agencies had the most money for capital programs,
(39:50):
picked three and work those three. And that's what I did.
And so the only way to get in was having
an MWBE certification. But that meant you had to be
a sub excuse me a subconsultant to a larger contractor,
and at the time, let me say, the mwbe goos
(40:11):
were probably like less than ten percent, but it was
fine because construction in New York is very complicated, and
so we needed I needed to make sure I really
understood what I was doing, how to get through the
building department and bull permits, how to work with the unions,
(40:34):
what's in contracts, all these things that are extremely important
if you're going to conduct business successfully. And so I
didn't mind working as a sub to say a Turner
construction of Skanskat Construction. All the large companies at the time,
so really I was selling myself to them, and not
(40:54):
necessarily to the direct client until later. But the plan
was once I understood how the game was played, to
then make sure I got to a prime role. So
to take those programs and use them to learn a client,
to learn a business, I think is great. But the
(41:16):
ultimate goal is you have to get to the point
where you have your own prime contracts, because that's when
you get to charge your own destiny. You know, that's
where you get to really build a strong team of
individuals in your company. It's hard to attract good people.
(41:37):
When you're taking that person and you're telling that one
or two employee of yours, I need if you go
to go work in someone else's shop for the next
two years instead of my shop. But when I'm in
control of the project, they're working in my shop. So
that's how you use those programs.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
What structural changes are still needed for minority on firms
like to compete.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
On equal footing? What what structural changes are needed?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I keep going back to access to capital. We yeah,
that that has to happen. And then there's another dynamic
in New York that is insurance base. Because of the
scaffolding law here, our insurance is exponentially higher than any
other state in the United States, and it's it's prohibitive
(42:37):
if you're a small firm, because you know, how do
you pay a million dollar policy and you don't even
have a project yet, right, But you can't get a
project unless you have a policy, unless you have an
insurance you know, certificate, and so the insurance We've got
(42:58):
to deal with that, and it's costing all of us
a lot of money. And so it's not just a
minority women owned business problem. It's a problem across the
board in New York City, so that that definitely needs
to change.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Tell us about the merch that they asked.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Okay that y'all didn't bring us by the way, yea,
I know. We ran out in the vineyard. Everybody. Everybody
wanted a T shirt and it is it's really catchy.
But they ask and the back says who built this?
And the reason why that significant is because people walk
(43:41):
in their own church, they can walk in a hospital,
walk through a train station. People can say, oh, it's
it feels nice. I like this environment, but no one says, well,
who built this? No one asked a question who designed this?
You know, is there a connection action between Terminal one
(44:02):
and j f K and LaGuardia Central Terminal, Like who
who built this? And so we want to bring awareness
to that, for people to say who built this and
for people to get interested in the real estate design
and construction profession. And of course we say we did. Mckisic.
(44:26):
That's amazing, that's amazing. We always does that, though he
does ask like where we go? I want who built this? Please?
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Please?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
It's not even don't even get that he asked that
all the time. To go to museums, we go to
say he who built this? Like maybe he has a
you know, he likes construction. Do you think she was going.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Because a little bit.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, we just ordered five hundred T shirts because we're
going to invest Fest. I know that's right. So you
will all get your T shirts before we go down there, please,
because you ain't gonna leave with none.
Speaker 4 (45:22):
In Atlanta. You'll be doing a fireside chat with miss
Basketball at invest Fest this year. It'll be on Friday Friday,
the twenty.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Friday twenty second, five o'clock.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
The Black Family Who Built America.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
We appreciate you for joining us so much.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
The book is available everywhere you buy books right now
from Cheryl mckissack.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Daniel. You are black history, right.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
You know we always be reading stuff in history books
and you know, wondering who these people were. We got living,
breathing black history sitting with us every day still out here.
So we need to celebrate it, appreciate it, learn about it,
and know about it. So when they ask who built it,
you could be like.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Oh, I know her, I just saw her. That's what
I'm telling I love it.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I love it. I'm an asked me. I'm gonna tell
my husband next time Cheryl m kissing baby. I know that,
I know, tell him that no time, right out of
some water. Yes, I wants to go and design and construction.
Come see me all right.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
When you need a job, you got her, I know her.
She hired my uncle.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Jesus christ Is.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Sharon mckisey, thank you so much for joining us. Pick
up the book The Black Family Who Built America Breakfast
Club good Morning.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Every day a week ago.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Click your ass up the Breakfast Club you don't finish
for y'all done.
The Breakfast Club News
Hosts And Creators
Charlamagne Tha God
DJ Envy
Jess Hilarious
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