Today on The Breakfast Club, Dr. Rheeda Walker On 'Unapologetic Guide To Black Mental Health' Anniversary, Faith, Therapy. Listen For More!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Everybody is DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the God. We
are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in
the building. Yes, indeed have doctor Rito Walker. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Good Mon's great to be here with you all.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Great to have you.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Doctor Rida Walker is the author one of my favorite
books ever, The Unapologetic God, The Black Mental Health.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I recommend it to everybody.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
And you are celebrating the fifth anniversary of the release
of The Unapologetic God, The Black Mental Health. Jesus Christ,
time don't be playing boy, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I mean five years.
Speaker 5 (00:32):
God is good and I never would have expected that
the book would have had the impact that has had,
you know, meeting you, you know, being able to talk
to you. All the folks who have you know, come
to me and said the book has changed their life.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You know.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Did they buy the book for their family members and
for friends, they have book club meetings.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It's just, you know, it's been a blessing.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I remember when I read it. Debbie Brown, our good sister,
Debbie Brown.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
She gave me the manuscript and I read it on vacation,
and I remember reading it and saying to my so,
where has this book been all of our lives?
Speaker 5 (01:04):
Well, it's been, you know, it's been a process. So
I earned my PhD more than twenty years ago, and
you know, working on trying to understand specifically for black people,
you know, our experiences, and trying to integrate that into
the larger landscape of mental health that you all know
has exploded, you know, trying to merge what I know
(01:25):
as a black woman and I'm a first generation college student.
My parents didn't go to college, and merging my reality
with what I was learning and the research that I
was engaged in and trying to train PhD clinical psychology students.
You know, that's it took time. So it took a
little time for me to get here, but I'm here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:41):
I noticed that it's not just about mental health, it's
specifically for black mental health, right, Like, why is it?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So?
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Why is it important to be unapologetic about who this
book is for.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
I'm so glad that you asked that, because, as you
all know, oftentimes, you know, black people get lumped in
with minorities. One of the labels that we use in
academia is bipock. So black and we include folks with
indigenous people of color, but we know that Black people
have a very specific and unique way of just living life,
(02:15):
of doing things. We've learned mental health from the generations
before us, and in ways that weren't always helpful. You know,
we learned not to talk about our feelings and emotions,
like we learned that like what we learned impacted who
we are, while at the same time dealing with racism,
dealing with microaggressions, you know, folks saying, you know, pull
yourself up by the bootstraps, and we don't even have boots.
(02:36):
You know, that is a reality for us, and we
need to be able to talk about that. And that's
part of what makes the book unapologetic is that I said, yeah,
we're not talking about everybody, We're just talking about black people. Yeah,
and that's not that it hasn't helped other folks. And
I've had people from many communities, you know, gay, straight, black, Asian,
We've all people from many different communities have said that
the book has helped them, which is fine, you know, great,
(02:56):
get what you need from the book.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
But I wrote it for us.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
How do you handle black people who still think therapy
is just white.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
People shit, Well, I say, you know, God bless you,
and then I talk to them about things that in
their language. And I think that's part of what made
the book resonate, is talking to folks in ways that
makes sense to us.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
And that's one of the reasons.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
They had to be for us, because we talk a
certain way, and I use that in the book. And so,
you know, I ask folks about their worry. I ask
folks about problem sleeping, Like in the black community, we
have a lot of problems with sleep, and we don't
even we normalize it. And so I talk about the
day to day kinds of things that people experience but
have normalize and then they say hmm, and then we
can start to have a conversation from there. I gotta
(03:39):
you got to meet folks where they are like. And
that's one of I introduced the idea of psychological fortitude
in the book, because we say mental health. As you
all know, folks start thinking, oh, someone's crazy. They hearing
and seeing things that aren't there. Okay, let's just move
by that. Let's let's let's keep it moving. Let's figure
out how I can help people with a different kind
of language.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's been five years. What's surprise you the most about
the impact of the book.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
I think probably the degree to which people who are
not black have said that the book has helped them really,
And I think it's because there are some dimensions of
mental health that are universal.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know, people worry, you know.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
People have difficulties with sadness and low moments, and so
what I do in the book is.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
To talk about what do you do with that?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
So given those moments, and they you know, they're transient,
like sometimes it's here, sometimes it's not. If we don't
address it, it can escalate, and so I talk about
that because we're humans, so it relates to it relates
for a lot of different communities.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And if you could add one chapter now right it's
been five years, if there's something that you missed it
you just wanted to add one chapter to discuss, what
would that chapter be on?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
You know what I have thought about I will say
the most is when I talk about suicide. So I
start there in the book. I didn't necessarily want to
start there, but the publishers wanted to start art there
because that's my area of research. So that's the research
that I have been doing, you know, for more than
twenty years. It's trying to understand risk and resilience related
(05:06):
to mental health crisis when someone decides they don't want
to live anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And so the.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Publisher said you need to start there, and I was like, ooh,
I don't. I don't think that's a good idea, you know,
not for my community. And since then we've had conversations
and they say, you know, okay, yeah, we kind of
get it. And so that's one thing I would definitely
do is to ease folks into that conversation maybe at
the end of the book rather than starting there.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
So just so you're prepared, I kind of start there, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Take I when to ask one thing about suicide before
you move on. You know, I was talking to my
wife about suicide because you see the suicide rates increase,
especially with young kids. People blame it on social media,
They blame on so many different things. Do you feel
like a lot of times a suicide is based off
of people not believing somebody's going through like almost like
I'm going to do it because I'm going to show you.
(05:56):
Do you see that a lot?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
I don't what I do see though, is people who
are in crisis and don't have the language to communicate
one or or they don't think people will believe them,
you know. So people are struggling, and there are a
lot of folks who are struggling, you know, especially especially
now and increasingly, and they don't have the wherewithal to
manage what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Or to be able to talk to folks who.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Are not going to judge them, because y'all know, there's
a lot of judgenus in our society, unfortunately. And the
sad thing about that judgingus is that it does keep
people from getting help. But the reality is, and you know,
I talk about it throughout the book, that if we
had a more informed society, and so this was my thinking.
I wrote the book because the suicide death rates were
(06:40):
increasing for black children age five to eleven, it was
decreasing at the same time for their white counterparts. And
so in my mind, because I know when people are
in crisis, it's hard to get help, and so they
need the folks around them to be able to say, hey,
you know, you don't quite seem like yourself, or oh,
I know you've been going through some things recently. I
just want to check in on a zero to ten rating.
(07:02):
You know, where where are you? And so, in my mind,
if we have a community around the struggling person, then
that's going to help them so much more than asking
them to reach out for help when they're already in crisis.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I'm glad you brought it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
Uh you called out beliefs like just pray about it
right as being part of the reason that black people
don't get formal help. What backlass did you face from that?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
You know, it's funny because I did have a couple
ordained ministers to read that chapter before it went into
the book, and one of them thanked me and the
other one said, uh, doctor Walker, we're just going to
have to.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Agree to disagree.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
And that was fine because I needed to be unapologetic
in calling out some of the things that we do
in the community that are problematic, like saying pray about it.
You know, when someone is really very depressed, and if
you say that to them and then they start to think, well,
maybe it's something wrong with me in my relationship with
God because I have been praying, Like why would you
(08:00):
think I haven't prayed? And so telling someone to pray
about it, will tell them what to pray for, ask
them to or advise them to pray for a mental
health professional who's going to help them, you know, ask
them to pray for someone who's going to give them
a good, strong reference or something that they can do
or hold on to. But to say pray about it
and good luck, that's not helping people. And it saddens me.
(08:21):
And it's almost heartbreaking when I still hear that, you know,
in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And I hate that hearing it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I hate off people who think it got to be
an either or like you can have God and therapy
because if I break my arm right now, you might
pray for me, but you still won't send me to
a doctor.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yes, absolutely, And there's someone who's made a T shirt
that said, you know that I pray, I pray and
go to therapy like please do, and even even better,
pray for a therapist who has some spiritual mindedness that
they can help you to integrate your faith in with
the therapy. And that's something that I trained PhD psychology
(08:57):
students to be able to do. You know, you got
to first ask someone because not everyone is a believer,
but ask them, you know, are you a person of faith?
What does that mean to you to be a person
of faith? Let's work together in order to be able
to help you using one of your resources, because yes,
having faith is a resource. Having faith has gotten black
folks through a lot when there was nothing else. And
(09:19):
I talk about that to my one of my newest books,
You Know, no racial Elephants in the therapy room. I
talked to specifically to therapists to be able to work
with their clients and including their faith.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I think the Potter's House has done a fantastic job
of combining the two. You know, Bish you TDJ, Sagax,
Roberts Torrey, like they've they always talk about God.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But then also you've got to bring into.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Mental health professionals when this actual mental health crisis is
going on.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Yes, because a lot of folks don't understand, you know,
the psychological and the psychiatric part of it that you know,
we can't expect for pastors and ministers to do that.
That's not their training. For some of them it is,
but for most it's not.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
You were talking about the language earlier, and that's a
conversation we always have, you know, here on the show
about how everybody has learned a lot of their language, right,
whether it's you know, depression, anxiety. Do you think that
people are self diagnosing too much? Are that just how
awareness starts?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
I think it's good for awareness because one of some
of the feedback that I've gotten about the book is
folks saying they didn't know what was going on with them,
and so they appreciate having language to be able to
communicate what's going on for them. So that's definitely a
good thing. But I do think that there is a
lot of self diagnosis and it ends there. So if
your diagnosis is I have higher than what is helpful
(10:32):
level of anxiety, go see a professional. If it is
my depression keeps me from being able to cook meals
for my family, I don't know what to do, go
see a professional who can help diagnose and give a
roadmap for what needs to happen next. But yeah, the
TikTok therapy is kind of concerning the kid.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The kids is what scares me because the kid will
say I'm depressed, and then if you ask the kay,
well what does depressed mean?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I can't even say I don't know I'm just upset
I failed the test and I'm depressed. You no, you're
not depressed.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But that's my only fear.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I wanted to ask. We had on that for a second.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Isn't that how we Isn't that a thing though, because
like when we were young, we knew we were feeling something.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
We just didn't know what it was. We didn't even
have the language to say depressed.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But you could be sad. Depressed is different being sad,
like it's different.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
But doesn't certain can sadness lead to the depression? Constant sadness? Right?
Speaker 5 (11:27):
Yes, So if you're sad for several weeks, if you're
sad for for two weeks or more, then you could
be depressed. I mean there there's certainly levels to depression,
and that's why help it's helpful to go to a licensed,
trained professional to be able to disentangle what might be happening. So, yeah,
(11:50):
if you fail to test, I want you to be sad.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I'm sad.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm sad for the day. I'm sad for a couple
of hours, but that doesn't mean depressed because tomorrow you're
back outside playing.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Soccer exactly exactly, and that's what we're.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It's a very dangerous even anxiety. Like when I hear
a kid say it, I'm like, I just realized what
anxiety was a couple of years ago. How you know
what it is to us?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
But they're smart, but you know, so for those of
us who are you know, who are older, who can
talk to young people, we can just ask what does
that mean for you?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
What does that look like for you?
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Because even as a professional, if I'm seeing someone or
a client for the first time, I'm asking them they
because they come in, they watch TikTok, you know, they
come in and they're saying, I'm depressed, and I still
need to know what does your depression look like? Because
your depression might be, you know, not being not wanting
to eat, Maybe you feel really very sad and you
don't want to be around people. But your depression might
(12:42):
be like you're doing too much, you know, because you're
trying to compensate for the depression, and your depression might
look like you're overeating. And everyone is experiencing depression, and
so we have to be able to ask not just
for our clients, but for everyday people, what does that
look like for you? Because It also gives us a
point of intervention. You know, So if you're feeling more
like you need to be isolated from folks, then okay,
(13:03):
maybe I'll let you go be to yourself for a
little while, and then I'll check in and say, Okay,
how are you doing today. We don't even have to
talk about the situation that you're going through. I just
want you to know I'm here for you. People need
to know that someone is going to be there for
them and that they're not going to judge them.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I think whatever I think.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Basically, you're just telling people, don't self not diagnose if
you think there's something there, and go seek help from professional.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, please, gotcha? Please.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I wanted to ask to what are some of the
myths that our community still have with therapy?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
We had an artist's name is Rob four nine. You
heard of him? What the helly? Okay, don't worry about it.
But he was saying basically that he feels like he
needs therapy, but he doesn't necessarily want to go because
he can't. He doesn't see himself talking to them. People
don't trust them, you know, he doesn't trust them. So
what are some of the myths that you still.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
See, well, that's certainly one of them. They gonna tell
all my business, and that's important. We you know, you
can't have folks, you can't have your business in the
street like that's something that is unacceptable in our community.
And so for that person. And I encounter a lot
of those folks who are struggling. You see it, you know,
we see it. But if they're not ready, then you
(14:16):
can't force them to go and talk to someone. That's
that's one part. And I there's so many folks, you know,
and that's why we have to be non judgmental because
if we say, like this is what I see, just
want you to know I'm concerned, and then back off,
then they know who they can go and talk to,
like this person express concern, they seem concerned about me,
I will go to them. But yes, those big myths
that are those people are going to tell on my business.
(14:38):
That's one part. The other part is what can they
tell me. They're not gonna be able to tell me.
They don't they don't even know me. But that's part
of the process, is getting to know the client. There
isn't a single person who is sit in front of
me that I would say, I know their life story,
I know how to help them. I'm gonna start with questions.
I got questions first, and then the other part is
(15:00):
you know something. I think that is they're gonna make
me someone that I'm not and I need to maintain myself.
Like I don't know a professional who has the power
to be able to magically make someone different. The goal
would be to make them a better functioning person, you know,
to take on their responsibilities and do the best that
they can, but not to make them a different person.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I do have a question what is a therapist allowed
to talk about?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So if I see a murder, if I murder somebody,
if I see domestic violence, if I see somebody getting hurt,
it always brings me back to the Mendez brothers right
where they were talking to the therapists, and the therapists
use some of the stuff on the court case. So
when you see stuff like that and something is going
through my mind, I'm like, I ain't gonna tell nobody
because what if they use it later? But then I
(15:45):
might have to tell somebody to heal. So what can
you guys tell?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And what you know?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
What is just you know, patient crime privilege.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yes, you got to go to prison for us, you can.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
But I'm sure there's people that have seen crimes, have
yet crimes, and they're going through things like I'll just
use Robe four nine again. He said that he's seen
so many things in his past, he seemed death, so
much of his past, but he might not want to
tell because he might want not want to get some
money in trouble.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, in that example, he can say I've seen.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Okay, So anyone can say they've seen something without giving
you know, facts or specifics and not expect for the
police to come in and haul them off. But what
I will say is so we talk in the first
session about confidentiality, like confidentiality is part of the bedrock
of what we do as licensed professionals, Like you can't
just go out and yap about what people have been
(16:36):
sharing or what they've disclosed in therapy. Now, the other
thing that we emphasize is if someone says that they
could be a harm to themselves or danger to themselves
or to someone else, then that information might have to
be disclosed in order to be able to protect that
person's life or to protect the life of someone else
if they are if there's a danger or abuse of children,
(16:58):
elderly or people who have disabilities or different abilities, then
that would have to be disclosed, and to be honest,
it varies by state, but that's, you know, kind of
a minimum threshold to be aware of because at the
end of the day, the client has to be able
to talk to their therapists because they aren't going to
be able to get the healing and the help that
they need if they can't get some stuff off of
their chest. But then once they do that, then there
(17:19):
has to be some understanding about what's going to happen next.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You haven't mentionalbody so toxic like they made your therapist
energy say yeah, I can't help you.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So there have been a couple of occasions, and so
what I have done for the most part is supervise
PhD students in training. And there have been occasions, as
an example, where the client was racist, or the client
was doing harm to animals and the therapist was having
a really difficult time because of I mean, that would
(17:52):
be hard for hopefully anyone and supervisors do approach this
work differently, I will say that, and that's one of
the reasons you may get different stories and different narratives
from different professionals because folks approach some of the work differently.
But for me, you can't have a client who is
disrespecting you or who is making you feel nauseous or
uncomfortable on the inside and do your work like that's
(18:15):
you can't do that. And so we're human first, like
you know therapists professionals, we are human first, but we
still also have a responsibility and obligation to be able
to provide the best possible care.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
We got a good friend, good friend of mine, name's
Humble the Poet, and he put out a book called Unanxious,
Fifty simple truths to help overthinkers feel less stress and
more calm. And I want to read just a quick
little line from it because I want to know what
you think about it. He says, life doesn't begin after
the obstacles. Life is the obstacles, and we have to
unlearn the idea.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
That we need.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I would even want a life free of chaos, stress,
and anxiety. We grow from facing challenges and exploring our limits.
And the book encourages people to face their stressors and
triggers head on with research techniques and journal prompts and
We had a discussion here on Breakfast Club because I'm like,
(19:06):
if I know something triggers me, I feel that I
reserve the right to disconnect from it and set my
boundary and not deal with that thing. He feels like,
you should sit with the thing so the thing doesn't
trigger you anymore.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Well, I think you know how I feel about the
word should, so I avoid it at all costs. And
so if there is something in you that says, in
this moment, I need to avoid this thing, I'm going
to honor that. But I'm also going to ask you
questions about what is happening for you? What are you
telling yourself? So I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, and so
(19:40):
for me, you know, thoughts connect with behaviors, connect with feelings.
So it all starts with, yes, something happened, But what
is your thought in response to the thing? So is
your thought in that moment? I can't deal with this.
This is gonna hurt me, This is gonna harm me.
I can't survive this because it happens, it plays out
automatically before folks recognize, and so we have to slow
(20:01):
down the process. Okay, tell me the facts. Tell me
what happened, tell me what your next thought was, because
most people don't have a sense of what was the
next thought, and as a therapist, I have to slow
things way down to understand. However, in order for you
to feel like I can deal with this, whatever this
situation is, or I need to be able to deal
(20:22):
with this in order to be successful in life, then
we got to figure out how to allow you to
be able to do that, because yes, I think what
I heard him saying was, you know, people need to
be able to adapt to new and novel situations and
circumstances in order to grow. In order to feel like, Okay,
I got this, you know I can be successful in life.
But I would I would pause, I'd hit the pause button.
(20:43):
Something happens, person wants to avoid, and I'm like, okay,
tell me what just happened, because again I'm asking questions.
I want to know what's going on for you, because
I don't assume anything about anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
See, I was like when he was there, I was like,
f that adapt right, And I'll explain to you if
I don't like you because you're a negative person. You're
always putting me down, and I just don't feel good
energy around you. You don't affect me in any which way.
So I can cut you off and say, you know what,
I'm not answering your phone anymore. I don't work with you.
I don't have to see you, and I should that
should be my right to do that, because my energy
(21:14):
is more important than this friendship. I don't have to
sit in it. I don't have to adapt. I don't
care if you like me or not. But that's how
we should be. I think a lot of times we
try to adapt in things, and we try to make
things right, and I think a lot of times it
hurts more than help.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah, you know, and I respect that one hundred percent.
And I can say that there have been maybe the
middle ground, because you never know, you just you never
know if someone says something to you, or they bring
you a certain kind of energy, and maybe you do
have some relationship with the person that you're willing to
consider and preserve. Why not say to them, you know,
when you do X, Y and Z, when you do
(21:48):
that thing right there, when you do this, this is
how I feel when that happens. Maybe they didn't know,
you know, maybe they thought they were doing a good thing.
And I think that allows us to be more in community,
because we need.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
More and more community.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I hear what you're saying. I used to try to
thinkams over there to show me something different, right, Short,
I used to do that too, Like you try to
adapt to people, you do things that sometimes you don't
want to do because you feel like it's the right
thing to do. Right, and Short Thinkham's over there would
be like, no, I'm not gonna do it because that
doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy for
what you do. I work hard, but I want to
(22:23):
protect my piece. And I didn't understand it for a while,
right because Short things just wouldn't go He was like,
I'm not doing it, You're not catch me, and I
wouldn't get it. But then after a while I understood,
and I'm like, yeah, if this is gonna up my piece,
if this is not gonna make me happy, I'm gonna
I'm gonna stage in my life where you know what effort.
And I agree with Shaw Thinkhams.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It's a little pet nickname for me. Sey'all, men can't
even just say my name. He can't even say my name.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
He gotta give me a little cute nickname to be
vulnerable just to express himself.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
You know what I mean, that make you feel better?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yes, okay, thank you, thank you, my wiffle colored negro.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Thank you. It's my babe over there.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
That's such a beautiful moment.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yes, look, so this is my question.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I don't know if maybe you can help me with this.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Right, you don't even know what you just said. That's
what that's the funny question.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
That was a moment for him to get a short look.
I need uh So, just last night, right, I could
not go to sleep. I could not go to sleep.
I have problems sleeping. And I noticed you said at
the beginning of the interview right where. But my thing
is I can't turn my mind off. That's the that's
(23:35):
the main thing. I don't know how to turn my
brain off. I'm thinking about things I could be doing
rather than getting sleep. I'm thinking about Damn, I forgot
to do this today. It's not enough hours in a day.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I you know what I.
Speaker 6 (23:48):
Mean, Like I have like a whole schedule in my mind.
I never get it done. I feel guilty when I'm
just sitting around, right, But I'm not supposed to feel
like that, right Because also the guy that they were
just referring to Humble poet. He was also saying we're
not designed to take in as much that we take
in now between like the social media, everything that we're fed,
(24:11):
like even the algorithm. Like I because I've been thinking
about it since he said it, and it's like, yo, like,
first thing I do, I wake up, You know, I
will pray, but I don't pray till I get in
the car. I check my phone and then like even
when I'm scrolling, it'll be a video, say, it'll be comedy,
then it'll be another one about church, that it'll be
nothing about something else about Donald Trump, to be something
about the gaye you know, they everywhere, and then I
(24:32):
scroll up again and it'll be something else. And then
you know, it's like but I'm not getting a chance
to process each and every video, right, So it's so
much information that I'm downloading, and it's like I'm not
a robot.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I supposed to be okay.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
With silence for a while, you know, then I got
a nine month old. Then I'm a wife, and then
I got It's so much so when I'm laying down,
I cannot silence my mind my thoughts to go to sleep.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Ever, can't ever silence.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Most of the time, not not ever, because weed will
help me do that just being honest with you, Like
I will hit a blunt and I will laugh and
then I'll be out for a minute. But that's really
the only thing that helps me get good rest weed.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
So you know, and I've heard you talk about your schedule,
you know, and you know getting up and I think
you said like four in the morning, but then you
go to bed late at night, and so you know,
So there's so many different layers to this, because yes,
you are doing a lot. But one of the things
that I heard you say just now was even when
you're kind of sitting, you feel like you're supposed to
(25:39):
be doing something, and so you're also telling yourself, I'm
supposed to be doing something other than resting. So that's
that's one thing for you to be mindful of. But then,
you know, I think it's especially in this day and age,
it's easy to wake up or not to fall asleep
because your mind is racing.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I was telling my husband this morning.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
I woke up at three o clock and I started
to think about this conversation, and then I was thinking, Okay,
I can say this I'll say that ooh and ooh,
and I was like, okay, stop and I know better, right,
I have the tools and the resources, and I was
like quit it. And then that didn't work, and I said, Okay,
we're gonna do ten more minutes. And then that didn't work,
and I was like, Okay, we have to start doing
our progressive muscle relaxation in order to be able to
(26:21):
calm down.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
So there are strategies.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Progressive muscle relaxation. So for me, it's when I close
my eyes and I'm breathing deeply, and I tell myself
that with each exhalation to release the tension. And I
start with my forehead and eyebrows because I'm literally sometimes
like this in bed. It was in Bens, like yeah,
and so I have to tell myself to release and
I go everybody part, ears, nose, and then I allow
(26:44):
my body to be able to relax into the moment
because I'm literally not just thinking, but I'm feeling it
in my body and.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I have to be able to relax.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
That the other thing that I recommend, and I put
this in the workbook. So I did the unapologetic guy,
and I have then the power legetic workbook is giving
folks permission to before you go to bed, like some
people need to keep a notepad in a pen, not
the phone, but a notepad and a pen by the
bed so that when all of these thoughts come to mind,
you write them down. You write them down before you
(27:14):
get into bed, Like everything that comes about, okay, write
it down and then okay, try that if that you
know you wake up, Okay, write somewhere down.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I didn't have a notepad last night. I was like, okay,
we're just gonna.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Bug this out, but be able to write down all
the things that come to your mind to release it,
because otherwise you're going to ruminate about it, and that
rumination will absolutely keep you up for hours.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah. Now, I learned a lot of those techniques from you.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
And it's funny because you know, my three year old
and look at me, see you see daddy, why you
doing like this? And I don't even realize I'm doing it.
And then when she tells me that, that's when I
do those I try to do that technique to just relax.
But another thing I want you to talk to Jess about.
When you go to your website, it says reclaim your mind.
What does that statement mean to you?
Speaker 5 (28:01):
We are a very very powerful people. And this is
what I'm hoping that we eventually get to, you know,
maybe not in the next five years or even ten years,
but for the next generation, that we get back to
knowing who we are as black people, as people of
African descent. You know, there's so much negativity associated folks
like I don't want to be African, you know, some
(28:23):
folks now say I just want to be American. But
the brilliance, the collective brilliance in our community is there,
but it is way down by anxiety and depression. And
for those who don't know, we talk a lot about
anxiety and depression because those are the two most commonly
diagnosed challenges. When we are way down with that, and
sometimes it comes from racism, microaggressions out of nowhere. You know,
(28:47):
yourt your job, just trying to mind your business, working
on a project, and somebody says, oh, how'd you get
that job?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And you're like, well, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (28:53):
And you're ruminating about that, Like, we just get weighed
down by so much stuff that when we can get
back to a place when we recognize that we are
a brilliant people that when we can come together, maybe
sometimes kneel together if need be, When we can come together,
then we can reclaim who we are and we can
use our immense talents and gifts that we have. Then
(29:14):
we can use them, and then we will live collectively
much more fulfilling lives, like we weren't meant to exist
as individuals. Like that's a Eurocentric way of seeing the world.
We are African people. You know, we don't have brother
and you know, we don't have cousin and distant cousin
and in laws. You know, we have brother and sister,
like we are family, and so we need to get
back to that in order to kind of resist the
(29:36):
stuff that's happening out there.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I got a couple of question because you talked about
psychological fortitude earlier, which is a concept you introduced in
the book and declare confusion around mental health. You talk
about psychological fortitude, can you break down what that is
just for people and why that's the game changing?
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Absolutely, because you know, just think on a day to
day basis, you ask somebody how they're doing, and they
say I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
You know, they may or may not mean it.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
But that's the answer that they give because oftentimes, you know,
we think people don't want to know, maybe we don't
know how well we're doing. But psychological fortitude is the
zero to ten rating of a few different things. It's
it's basically your capacity to function. So take care of
your work responsibilities and or school responsibilities, because this can
apply to children and teens. Also to be able to
(30:22):
take care of your family.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Maybe you got the in.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Laws at the house, you got other cousins, you got
folks at the house. To be able to take care
of your physical health. You know, health health is a
serious concern in our community for a number of different reasons.
We got to be able to exercise and eat, write
and do all the things while not sleeping. You know,
you want a bag of chip sometimes when you can't
sleep in your stressed out I love dessert, you know.
And then we also need to be able to withstand
(30:44):
the threats, like the things that are coming after us
while we're still trying to tap into our gifts and talents.
You know, in some communities not using your gifts and
talents as a sin. But for us, it's kind of like,
you know, you're just going through the motions and hoping.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
For the best.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
So if I say, you know, I say, envy, you
know zero to ten, you don't have to tell us,
but you could if you like, you know, on a
zero to ten, you know, zero mean you have nothing
in the tank, and ten is you cooking? You know,
where would you say you are on your capacity to
be able to do all those things?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
All?
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Now?
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Nine you're the nine, and so you're at a great place.
And so I might say, Okay, you know, Mby's good.
You know we're gonna keep it moving. But if he
said like four or lower, then that says to me,
as someone in his community, that I need to just
check in and say, hey, you know you're at a four, but.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
That's two day tomorrow. It could be a two.
Speaker 5 (31:32):
Tomorrow, it could be a two, right And if you
stayed at a two for weeks, then we know it's
a problem. But we have our two moments cause we're human.
And then also for me, for myself, if I ask
myself my own rating, and if it's too low, then
I know that I probably need to be working on
a boundary, Like I definitely don't need to be taken
on anything else. I don't care who it is. I
(31:53):
don't care what they ask. I cannot take on a
single thing. If I'm at a six for me personally,
if I'm at a six or lower, I'm I'm not
doing anything else.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I appreciate you. I can't today. Check in with me
in three to four five months and or I need
to add.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
Some sources of joy, you know, maybe reach out to
someone that I haven't talked to in a while, who
makes me smile, who I know isn't going to judge me.
And I do have, you know, friends and folks who
reach out to me and just say like, hey, what's
your PF. SO PF for psychological fortitude? What's your PF
right now? And depending on where I am, you know,
I don't think about it for too long because you know,
we can think. We want to get the right answer.
(32:29):
I don't know what they're going to say, like just
give a number. Like a number is so much more
neutral than saying I'm good when I'm not, or risking
saying you know, maybe someone else isn't ready for what
all I might be going through.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I begad of a number that tells you a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
My last question is you know, you know, I love
don't apologetic God to Black Pirns's Health. I swear by it.
I think it's more than a book. It's a call
to action. So what would progress look like in another
five years from now if everybody really embrace the call
to act that's.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
In this book?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (33:01):
I love that question. So in another five years, we
would have stronger communities where we're able to ask someone
what's your PF right now? And if they say something
that is a four or five, then you say, hey,
do you have time right now? Let's check in, let's
let's sit down. Or if they say something like a
two or three, then someone in the community says, let
(33:24):
me help you find a professional who can.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Work with you. That it helps to build.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Our communities, and that we have folks who are suffering
less because you know, there are a lot of people
who are suffering needlessly because they don't know whether or
not this is mental health related or am I going crazy?
Like we have legitimate language and understanding about what our
psychological fortitude is. And I introduce that in part because
(33:50):
and I think I mentioned this because when we hear
mental health, we think something else. We need to get
beyond that like we really need to get beyond this
person is crazy, this person is having a nervous breakdown,
Like that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
We need to be able to function.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
But there are people who for sure have serious challenges
and are hearing things that aren't there, and they do
need to be able to connect with someone who's going
to get them some medication. But I want us to
normalize these conversations, get folks the help that they need
so that every everyone can contribute to a better functioning society.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
All right, absolutely well, doctor Rida Walker, we appreciate a
joining thank you. If you haven't got the book, pick
up the book now is to fit the anniversary of
the release of The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
And the work book, the workbook that goes with The
Unapologetic God to Black Mental Health. I tell everybody it
is a muster read. It's one of them books that
you have to have in your household. This is the
book that we all needed, you know, growing up, Like
you know, when our parents didn't know how to talk
to us about it, or adults around us didn't know
how to talk to us about mental health.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
This book right here laid it down quite flat.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, can I can?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I just add just two brief things.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
One, thank you so much to you, because you know,
there have been a lot of people who said they
got the book because of you didn't know any thing
about it. So I am beyond grateful to you, Leonard
forgetting the word out about the book. And also, folks
can follow me. I'm most active on Instagram doctor Rita
Walker dot com. Maybe I can get five hundred more
followers to get me to twenty thousand for my birthday.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Birthday day, It's Saturday.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
On Saturday, go follow doctor Rita Walker. Right do you
say birthday, doctor Walker?
Speaker 4 (35:21):
You turn up.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Birthday.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
It's doctor Rita Walker.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up
in the morning.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
The Breakfast Club.
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Everybody is DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the God. We
are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in
the building. Yes, indeed have doctor Rito Walker. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Good Mon's great to be here with you all.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Great to have you.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Doctor Rida Walker is the author one of my favorite
books ever, The Unapologetic God, The Black Mental Health.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I recommend it to everybody.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
And you are celebrating the fifth anniversary of the release
of The Unapologetic God, The Black Mental Health. Jesus Christ,
time don't be playing boy, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I mean five years.
Speaker 5 (00:32):
God is good and I never would have expected that
the book would have had the impact that has had,
you know, meeting you, you know, being able to talk
to you. All the folks who have you know, come
to me and said the book has changed their life.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You know.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Did they buy the book for their family members and
for friends, they have book club meetings.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It's just, you know, it's been a blessing.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I remember when I read it. Debbie Brown, our good sister,
Debbie Brown.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
She gave me the manuscript and I read it on vacation,
and I remember reading it and saying to my so,
where has this book been all of our lives?
Speaker 5 (01:04):
Well, it's been, you know, it's been a process. So
I earned my PhD more than twenty years ago, and
you know, working on trying to understand specifically for black people,
you know, our experiences, and trying to integrate that into
the larger landscape of mental health that you all know
has exploded, you know, trying to merge what I know
(01:25):
as a black woman and I'm a first generation college student.
My parents didn't go to college, and merging my reality
with what I was learning and the research that I
was engaged in and trying to train PhD clinical psychology students.
You know, that's it took time. So it took a
little time for me to get here, but I'm here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:41):
I noticed that it's not just about mental health, it's
specifically for black mental health, right, Like, why is it?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So?
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Why is it important to be unapologetic about who this
book is for.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
I'm so glad that you asked that, because, as you
all know, oftentimes, you know, black people get lumped in
with minorities. One of the labels that we use in
academia is bipock. So black and we include folks with
indigenous people of color, but we know that Black people
have a very specific and unique way of just living life,
(02:15):
of doing things. We've learned mental health from the generations
before us, and in ways that weren't always helpful. You know,
we learned not to talk about our feelings and emotions,
like we learned that like what we learned impacted who
we are, while at the same time dealing with racism,
dealing with microaggressions, you know, folks saying, you know, pull
yourself up by the bootstraps, and we don't even have boots.
(02:36):
You know, that is a reality for us, and we
need to be able to talk about that. And that's
part of what makes the book unapologetic is that I said, yeah,
we're not talking about everybody, We're just talking about black people. Yeah,
and that's not that it hasn't helped other folks. And
I've had people from many communities, you know, gay, straight, black, Asian,
We've all people from many different communities have said that
the book has helped them, which is fine, you know, great,
(02:56):
get what you need from the book.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
But I wrote it for us.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
How do you handle black people who still think therapy
is just white.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
People shit, Well, I say, you know, God bless you,
and then I talk to them about things that in
their language. And I think that's part of what made
the book resonate, is talking to folks in ways that
makes sense to us.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
And that's one of the reasons.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
They had to be for us, because we talk a
certain way, and I use that in the book. And so,
you know, I ask folks about their worry. I ask
folks about problem sleeping, Like in the black community, we
have a lot of problems with sleep, and we don't
even we normalize it. And so I talk about the
day to day kinds of things that people experience but
have normalize and then they say hmm, and then we
can start to have a conversation from there. I gotta
(03:39):
you got to meet folks where they are like. And
that's one of I introduced the idea of psychological fortitude
in the book, because we say mental health. As you
all know, folks start thinking, oh, someone's crazy. They hearing
and seeing things that aren't there. Okay, let's just move
by that. Let's let's let's keep it moving. Let's figure
out how I can help people with a different kind
of language.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's been five years. What's surprise you the most about
the impact of the book.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
I think probably the degree to which people who are
not black have said that the book has helped them really,
And I think it's because there are some dimensions of
mental health that are universal.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know, people worry, you know.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
People have difficulties with sadness and low moments, and so
what I do in the book is.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
To talk about what do you do with that?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
So given those moments, and they you know, they're transient,
like sometimes it's here, sometimes it's not. If we don't
address it, it can escalate, and so I talk about
that because we're humans, so it relates to it relates
for a lot of different communities.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And if you could add one chapter now right it's
been five years, if there's something that you missed it
you just wanted to add one chapter to discuss, what
would that chapter be on?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
You know what I have thought about I will say
the most is when I talk about suicide. So I
start there in the book. I didn't necessarily want to
start there, but the publishers wanted to start art there
because that's my area of research. So that's the research
that I have been doing, you know, for more than
twenty years. It's trying to understand risk and resilience related
(05:06):
to mental health crisis when someone decides they don't want
to live anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And so the.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Publisher said you need to start there, and I was like, ooh,
I don't. I don't think that's a good idea, you know,
not for my community. And since then we've had conversations
and they say, you know, okay, yeah, we kind of
get it. And so that's one thing I would definitely
do is to ease folks into that conversation maybe at
the end of the book rather than starting there.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
So just so you're prepared, I kind of start there, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Take I when to ask one thing about suicide before
you move on. You know, I was talking to my
wife about suicide because you see the suicide rates increase,
especially with young kids. People blame it on social media,
They blame on so many different things. Do you feel
like a lot of times a suicide is based off
of people not believing somebody's going through like almost like
I'm going to do it because I'm going to show you.
(05:56):
Do you see that a lot?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
I don't what I do see though, is people who
are in crisis and don't have the language to communicate
one or or they don't think people will believe them,
you know. So people are struggling, and there are a
lot of folks who are struggling, you know, especially especially
now and increasingly, and they don't have the wherewithal to
manage what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Or to be able to talk to folks who.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Are not going to judge them, because y'all know, there's
a lot of judgenus in our society, unfortunately. And the
sad thing about that judgingus is that it does keep
people from getting help. But the reality is, and you know,
I talk about it throughout the book, that if we
had a more informed society, and so this was my thinking.
I wrote the book because the suicide death rates were
(06:40):
increasing for black children age five to eleven, it was
decreasing at the same time for their white counterparts. And
so in my mind, because I know when people are
in crisis, it's hard to get help, and so they
need the folks around them to be able to say, hey,
you know, you don't quite seem like yourself, or oh,
I know you've been going through some things recently. I
just want to check in on a zero to ten rating.
(07:02):
You know, where where are you? And so, in my mind,
if we have a community around the struggling person, then
that's going to help them so much more than asking
them to reach out for help when they're already in crisis.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I'm glad you brought it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
Uh you called out beliefs like just pray about it
right as being part of the reason that black people
don't get formal help. What backlass did you face from that?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
You know, it's funny because I did have a couple
ordained ministers to read that chapter before it went into
the book, and one of them thanked me and the
other one said, uh, doctor Walker, we're just going to
have to.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Agree to disagree.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
And that was fine because I needed to be unapologetic
in calling out some of the things that we do
in the community that are problematic, like saying pray about it.
You know, when someone is really very depressed, and if
you say that to them and then they start to think, well,
maybe it's something wrong with me in my relationship with
God because I have been praying, Like why would you
(08:00):
think I haven't prayed? And so telling someone to pray
about it, will tell them what to pray for, ask
them to or advise them to pray for a mental
health professional who's going to help them, you know, ask
them to pray for someone who's going to give them
a good, strong reference or something that they can do
or hold on to. But to say pray about it
and good luck, that's not helping people. And it saddens me.
(08:21):
And it's almost heartbreaking when I still hear that, you know,
in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And I hate that hearing it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
I hate off people who think it got to be
an either or like you can have God and therapy
because if I break my arm right now, you might
pray for me, but you still won't send me to
a doctor.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yes, absolutely, And there's someone who's made a T shirt
that said, you know that I pray, I pray and
go to therapy like please do, and even even better,
pray for a therapist who has some spiritual mindedness that
they can help you to integrate your faith in with
the therapy. And that's something that I trained PhD psychology
(08:57):
students to be able to do. You know, you got
to first ask someone because not everyone is a believer,
but ask them, you know, are you a person of faith?
What does that mean to you to be a person
of faith? Let's work together in order to be able
to help you using one of your resources, because yes,
having faith is a resource. Having faith has gotten black
folks through a lot when there was nothing else. And
(09:19):
I talk about that to my one of my newest books,
You Know, no racial Elephants in the therapy room. I
talked to specifically to therapists to be able to work
with their clients and including their faith.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I think the Potter's House has done a fantastic job
of combining the two. You know, Bish you TDJ, Sagax,
Roberts Torrey, like they've they always talk about God.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But then also you've got to bring into.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Mental health professionals when this actual mental health crisis is
going on.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Yes, because a lot of folks don't understand, you know,
the psychological and the psychiatric part of it that you know,
we can't expect for pastors and ministers to do that.
That's not their training. For some of them it is,
but for most it's not.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
You were talking about the language earlier, and that's a
conversation we always have, you know, here on the show
about how everybody has learned a lot of their language, right,
whether it's you know, depression, anxiety. Do you think that
people are self diagnosing too much? Are that just how
awareness starts?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
I think it's good for awareness because one of some
of the feedback that I've gotten about the book is
folks saying they didn't know what was going on with them,
and so they appreciate having language to be able to
communicate what's going on for them. So that's definitely a
good thing. But I do think that there is a
lot of self diagnosis and it ends there. So if
your diagnosis is I have higher than what is helpful
(10:32):
level of anxiety, go see a professional. If it is
my depression keeps me from being able to cook meals
for my family, I don't know what to do, go
see a professional who can help diagnose and give a
roadmap for what needs to happen next. But yeah, the
TikTok therapy is kind of concerning the kid.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The kids is what scares me because the kid will
say I'm depressed, and then if you ask the kay,
well what does depressed mean?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I can't even say I don't know I'm just upset
I failed the test and I'm depressed. You no, you're
not depressed.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But that's my only fear.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I wanted to ask. We had on that for a second.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Isn't that how we Isn't that a thing though, because
like when we were young, we knew we were feeling something.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
We just didn't know what it was. We didn't even
have the language to say depressed.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But you could be sad. Depressed is different being sad,
like it's different.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
But doesn't certain can sadness lead to the depression? Constant sadness? Right?
Speaker 5 (11:27):
Yes, So if you're sad for several weeks, if you're
sad for for two weeks or more, then you could
be depressed. I mean there there's certainly levels to depression,
and that's why help it's helpful to go to a licensed,
trained professional to be able to disentangle what might be happening. So, yeah,
(11:50):
if you fail to test, I want you to be sad.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I'm sad.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm sad for the day. I'm sad for a couple
of hours, but that doesn't mean depressed because tomorrow you're
back outside playing.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Soccer exactly exactly, and that's what we're.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It's a very dangerous even anxiety. Like when I hear
a kid say it, I'm like, I just realized what
anxiety was a couple of years ago. How you know
what it is to us?
Speaker 5 (12:09):
But they're smart, but you know, so for those of
us who are you know, who are older, who can
talk to young people, we can just ask what does
that mean for you?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
What does that look like for you?
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Because even as a professional, if I'm seeing someone or
a client for the first time, I'm asking them they
because they come in, they watch TikTok, you know, they
come in and they're saying, I'm depressed, and I still
need to know what does your depression look like? Because
your depression might be, you know, not being not wanting
to eat, Maybe you feel really very sad and you
don't want to be around people. But your depression might
(12:42):
be like you're doing too much, you know, because you're
trying to compensate for the depression, and your depression might
look like you're overeating. And everyone is experiencing depression, and
so we have to be able to ask not just
for our clients, but for everyday people, what does that
look like for you? Because It also gives us a
point of intervention. You know, So if you're feeling more
like you need to be isolated from folks, then okay,
(13:03):
maybe I'll let you go be to yourself for a
little while, and then I'll check in and say, Okay,
how are you doing today. We don't even have to
talk about the situation that you're going through. I just
want you to know I'm here for you. People need
to know that someone is going to be there for
them and that they're not going to judge them.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I think whatever I think.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Basically, you're just telling people, don't self not diagnose if
you think there's something there, and go seek help from professional.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, please, gotcha? Please.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I wanted to ask to what are some of the
myths that our community still have with therapy?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
We had an artist's name is Rob four nine. You
heard of him? What the helly? Okay, don't worry about it.
But he was saying basically that he feels like he
needs therapy, but he doesn't necessarily want to go because
he can't. He doesn't see himself talking to them. People
don't trust them, you know, he doesn't trust them. So
what are some of the myths that you still.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
See, well, that's certainly one of them. They gonna tell
all my business, and that's important. We you know, you
can't have folks, you can't have your business in the
street like that's something that is unacceptable in our community.
And so for that person. And I encounter a lot
of those folks who are struggling. You see it, you know,
we see it. But if they're not ready, then you
(14:16):
can't force them to go and talk to someone. That's
that's one part. And I there's so many folks, you know,
and that's why we have to be non judgmental because
if we say, like this is what I see, just
want you to know I'm concerned, and then back off,
then they know who they can go and talk to,
like this person express concern, they seem concerned about me,
I will go to them. But yes, those big myths
that are those people are going to tell on my business.
(14:38):
That's one part. The other part is what can they
tell me. They're not gonna be able to tell me.
They don't they don't even know me. But that's part
of the process, is getting to know the client. There
isn't a single person who is sit in front of
me that I would say, I know their life story,
I know how to help them. I'm gonna start with questions.
I got questions first, and then the other part is
(15:00):
you know something. I think that is they're gonna make
me someone that I'm not and I need to maintain myself.
Like I don't know a professional who has the power
to be able to magically make someone different. The goal
would be to make them a better functioning person, you know,
to take on their responsibilities and do the best that
they can, but not to make them a different person.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I do have a question what is a therapist allowed
to talk about?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So if I see a murder, if I murder somebody,
if I see domestic violence, if I see somebody getting hurt,
it always brings me back to the Mendez brothers right
where they were talking to the therapists, and the therapists
use some of the stuff on the court case. So
when you see stuff like that and something is going
through my mind, I'm like, I ain't gonna tell nobody
because what if they use it later? But then I
(15:45):
might have to tell somebody to heal. So what can
you guys tell?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And what you know?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
What is just you know, patient crime privilege.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yes, you got to go to prison for us, you can.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
But I'm sure there's people that have seen crimes, have
yet crimes, and they're going through things like I'll just
use Robe four nine again. He said that he's seen
so many things in his past, he seemed death, so
much of his past, but he might not want to
tell because he might want not want to get some
money in trouble.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Well, in that example, he can say I've seen.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Okay, So anyone can say they've seen something without giving
you know, facts or specifics and not expect for the
police to come in and haul them off. But what
I will say is so we talk in the first
session about confidentiality, like confidentiality is part of the bedrock
of what we do as licensed professionals, Like you can't
just go out and yap about what people have been
(16:36):
sharing or what they've disclosed in therapy. Now, the other
thing that we emphasize is if someone says that they
could be a harm to themselves or danger to themselves
or to someone else, then that information might have to
be disclosed in order to be able to protect that
person's life or to protect the life of someone else
if they are if there's a danger or abuse of children,
(16:58):
elderly or people who have disabilities or different abilities, then
that would have to be disclosed, and to be honest,
it varies by state, but that's, you know, kind of
a minimum threshold to be aware of because at the
end of the day, the client has to be able
to talk to their therapists because they aren't going to
be able to get the healing and the help that
they need if they can't get some stuff off of
their chest. But then once they do that, then there
(17:19):
has to be some understanding about what's going to happen next.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You haven't mentionalbody so toxic like they made your therapist
energy say yeah, I can't help you.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So there have been a couple of occasions, and so
what I have done for the most part is supervise
PhD students in training. And there have been occasions, as
an example, where the client was racist, or the client
was doing harm to animals and the therapist was having
a really difficult time because of I mean, that would
(17:52):
be hard for hopefully anyone and supervisors do approach this
work differently, I will say that, and that's one of
the reasons you may get different stories and different narratives
from different professionals because folks approach some of the work differently.
But for me, you can't have a client who is
disrespecting you or who is making you feel nauseous or
uncomfortable on the inside and do your work like that's
(18:15):
you can't do that. And so we're human first, like
you know therapists professionals, we are human first, but we
still also have a responsibility and obligation to be able
to provide the best possible care.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
We got a good friend, good friend of mine, name's
Humble the Poet, and he put out a book called Unanxious,
Fifty simple truths to help overthinkers feel less stress and
more calm. And I want to read just a quick
little line from it because I want to know what
you think about it. He says, life doesn't begin after
the obstacles. Life is the obstacles, and we have to
unlearn the idea.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
That we need.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I would even want a life free of chaos, stress,
and anxiety. We grow from facing challenges and exploring our limits.
And the book encourages people to face their stressors and
triggers head on with research techniques and journal prompts and
We had a discussion here on Breakfast Club because I'm like,
(19:06):
if I know something triggers me, I feel that I
reserve the right to disconnect from it and set my
boundary and not deal with that thing. He feels like,
you should sit with the thing so the thing doesn't
trigger you anymore.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Well, I think you know how I feel about the
word should, so I avoid it at all costs. And
so if there is something in you that says, in
this moment, I need to avoid this thing, I'm going
to honor that. But I'm also going to ask you
questions about what is happening for you? What are you
telling yourself? So I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, and so
(19:40):
for me, you know, thoughts connect with behaviors, connect with feelings.
So it all starts with, yes, something happened, But what
is your thought in response to the thing? So is
your thought in that moment? I can't deal with this.
This is gonna hurt me, This is gonna harm me.
I can't survive this because it happens, it plays out
automatically before folks recognize, and so we have to slow
(20:01):
down the process. Okay, tell me the facts. Tell me
what happened, tell me what your next thought was, because
most people don't have a sense of what was the
next thought, and as a therapist, I have to slow
things way down to understand. However, in order for you
to feel like I can deal with this, whatever this
situation is, or I need to be able to deal
(20:22):
with this in order to be successful in life, then
we got to figure out how to allow you to
be able to do that, because yes, I think what
I heard him saying was, you know, people need to
be able to adapt to new and novel situations and
circumstances in order to grow. In order to feel like, Okay,
I got this, you know I can be successful in life.
But I would I would pause, I'd hit the pause button.
(20:43):
Something happens, person wants to avoid, and I'm like, okay,
tell me what just happened, because again I'm asking questions.
I want to know what's going on for you, because
I don't assume anything about anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
See, I was like when he was there, I was like,
f that adapt right, And I'll explain to you if
I don't like you because you're a negative person. You're
always putting me down, and I just don't feel good
energy around you. You don't affect me in any which way.
So I can cut you off and say, you know what,
I'm not answering your phone anymore. I don't work with you.
I don't have to see you, and I should that
should be my right to do that, because my energy
(21:14):
is more important than this friendship. I don't have to
sit in it. I don't have to adapt. I don't
care if you like me or not. But that's how
we should be. I think a lot of times we
try to adapt in things, and we try to make
things right, and I think a lot of times it
hurts more than help.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah, you know, and I respect that one hundred percent.
And I can say that there have been maybe the
middle ground, because you never know, you just you never
know if someone says something to you, or they bring
you a certain kind of energy, and maybe you do
have some relationship with the person that you're willing to
consider and preserve. Why not say to them, you know,
when you do X, Y and Z, when you do
(21:48):
that thing right there, when you do this, this is
how I feel when that happens. Maybe they didn't know,
you know, maybe they thought they were doing a good thing.
And I think that allows us to be more in community,
because we need.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
More and more community.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I hear what you're saying. I used to try to
thinkams over there to show me something different, right, Short,
I used to do that too, Like you try to
adapt to people, you do things that sometimes you don't
want to do because you feel like it's the right
thing to do. Right, and Short Thinkham's over there would
be like, no, I'm not gonna do it because that
doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy for
what you do. I work hard, but I want to
(22:23):
protect my piece. And I didn't understand it for a while,
right because Short things just wouldn't go He was like,
I'm not doing it, You're not catch me, and I
wouldn't get it. But then after a while I understood,
and I'm like, yeah, if this is gonna up my piece,
if this is not gonna make me happy, I'm gonna
I'm gonna stage in my life where you know what effort.
And I agree with Shaw Thinkhams.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It's a little pet nickname for me. Sey'all, men can't
even just say my name. He can't even say my name.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
He gotta give me a little cute nickname to be
vulnerable just to express himself.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
You know what I mean, that make you feel better?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yes, okay, thank you, thank you, my wiffle colored negro.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Thank you. It's my babe over there.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
That's such a beautiful moment.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yes, look, so this is my question.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I don't know if maybe you can help me with this.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Right, you don't even know what you just said. That's
what that's the funny question.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
That was a moment for him to get a short look.
I need uh So, just last night, right, I could
not go to sleep. I could not go to sleep.
I have problems sleeping. And I noticed you said at
the beginning of the interview right where. But my thing
is I can't turn my mind off. That's the that's
(23:35):
the main thing. I don't know how to turn my
brain off. I'm thinking about things I could be doing
rather than getting sleep. I'm thinking about Damn, I forgot
to do this today. It's not enough hours in a day.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I you know what I.
Speaker 6 (23:48):
Mean, Like I have like a whole schedule in my mind.
I never get it done. I feel guilty when I'm
just sitting around, right, But I'm not supposed to feel
like that, right Because also the guy that they were
just referring to Humble poet. He was also saying we're
not designed to take in as much that we take
in now between like the social media, everything that we're fed,
(24:11):
like even the algorithm. Like I because I've been thinking
about it since he said it, and it's like, yo, like,
first thing I do, I wake up, You know, I
will pray, but I don't pray till I get in
the car. I check my phone and then like even
when I'm scrolling, it'll be a video, say, it'll be comedy,
then it'll be another one about church, that it'll be
nothing about something else about Donald Trump, to be something
about the gaye you know, they everywhere, and then I
(24:32):
scroll up again and it'll be something else. And then
you know, it's like but I'm not getting a chance
to process each and every video, right, So it's so
much information that I'm downloading, and it's like I'm not
a robot.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I supposed to be okay.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
With silence for a while, you know, then I got
a nine month old. Then I'm a wife, and then
I got It's so much so when I'm laying down,
I cannot silence my mind my thoughts to go to sleep.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Ever, can't ever silence.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Most of the time, not not ever, because weed will
help me do that just being honest with you, Like
I will hit a blunt and I will laugh and
then I'll be out for a minute. But that's really
the only thing that helps me get good rest weed.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
So you know, and I've heard you talk about your schedule,
you know, and you know getting up and I think
you said like four in the morning, but then you
go to bed late at night, and so you know,
So there's so many different layers to this, because yes,
you are doing a lot. But one of the things
that I heard you say just now was even when
you're kind of sitting, you feel like you're supposed to
(25:39):
be doing something, and so you're also telling yourself, I'm
supposed to be doing something other than resting. So that's
that's one thing for you to be mindful of. But then,
you know, I think it's especially in this day and age,
it's easy to wake up or not to fall asleep
because your mind is racing.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I was telling my husband this morning.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
I woke up at three o clock and I started
to think about this conversation, and then I was thinking, Okay,
I can say this I'll say that ooh and ooh,
and I was like, okay, stop and I know better, right,
I have the tools and the resources, and I was
like quit it. And then that didn't work, and I said, Okay,
we're gonna do ten more minutes. And then that didn't work,
and I was like, Okay, we have to start doing
our progressive muscle relaxation in order to be able to
(26:21):
calm down.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
So there are strategies.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Progressive muscle relaxation. So for me, it's when I close
my eyes and I'm breathing deeply, and I tell myself
that with each exhalation to release the tension. And I
start with my forehead and eyebrows because I'm literally sometimes
like this in bed. It was in Bens, like yeah,
and so I have to tell myself to release and
I go everybody part, ears, nose, and then I allow
(26:44):
my body to be able to relax into the moment
because I'm literally not just thinking, but I'm feeling it
in my body and.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I have to be able to relax.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
That the other thing that I recommend, and I put
this in the workbook. So I did the unapologetic guy,
and I have then the power legetic workbook is giving
folks permission to before you go to bed, like some
people need to keep a notepad in a pen, not
the phone, but a notepad and a pen by the
bed so that when all of these thoughts come to mind,
you write them down. You write them down before you
(27:14):
get into bed, Like everything that comes about, okay, write
it down and then okay, try that if that you
know you wake up, Okay, write somewhere down.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I didn't have a notepad last night. I was like, okay,
we're just gonna.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Bug this out, but be able to write down all
the things that come to your mind to release it,
because otherwise you're going to ruminate about it, and that
rumination will absolutely keep you up for hours.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah. Now, I learned a lot of those techniques from you.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
And it's funny because you know, my three year old
and look at me, see you see daddy, why you
doing like this? And I don't even realize I'm doing it.
And then when she tells me that, that's when I
do those I try to do that technique to just relax.
But another thing I want you to talk to Jess about.
When you go to your website, it says reclaim your mind.
What does that statement mean to you?
Speaker 5 (28:01):
We are a very very powerful people. And this is
what I'm hoping that we eventually get to, you know,
maybe not in the next five years or even ten years,
but for the next generation, that we get back to
knowing who we are as black people, as people of
African descent. You know, there's so much negativity associated folks
like I don't want to be African, you know, some
(28:23):
folks now say I just want to be American. But
the brilliance, the collective brilliance in our community is there,
but it is way down by anxiety and depression. And
for those who don't know, we talk a lot about
anxiety and depression because those are the two most commonly
diagnosed challenges. When we are way down with that, and
sometimes it comes from racism, microaggressions out of nowhere. You know,
(28:47):
yourt your job, just trying to mind your business, working
on a project, and somebody says, oh, how'd you get
that job?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And you're like, well, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (28:53):
And you're ruminating about that, Like, we just get weighed
down by so much stuff that when we can get
back to a place when we recognize that we are
a brilliant people that when we can come together, maybe
sometimes kneel together if need be, When we can come together,
then we can reclaim who we are and we can
use our immense talents and gifts that we have. Then
(29:14):
we can use them, and then we will live collectively
much more fulfilling lives, like we weren't meant to exist
as individuals. Like that's a Eurocentric way of seeing the world.
We are African people. You know, we don't have brother
and you know, we don't have cousin and distant cousin
and in laws. You know, we have brother and sister,
like we are family, and so we need to get
back to that in order to kind of resist the
(29:36):
stuff that's happening out there.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I got a couple of question because you talked about
psychological fortitude earlier, which is a concept you introduced in
the book and declare confusion around mental health. You talk
about psychological fortitude, can you break down what that is
just for people and why that's the game changing?
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Absolutely, because you know, just think on a day to
day basis, you ask somebody how they're doing, and they
say I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
You know, they may or may not mean it.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
But that's the answer that they give because oftentimes, you know,
we think people don't want to know, maybe we don't
know how well we're doing. But psychological fortitude is the
zero to ten rating of a few different things. It's
it's basically your capacity to function. So take care of
your work responsibilities and or school responsibilities, because this can
apply to children and teens. Also to be able to
(30:22):
take care of your family.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Maybe you got the in.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Laws at the house, you got other cousins, you got
folks at the house. To be able to take care
of your physical health. You know, health health is a
serious concern in our community for a number of different reasons.
We got to be able to exercise and eat, write
and do all the things while not sleeping. You know,
you want a bag of chip sometimes when you can't
sleep in your stressed out I love dessert, you know.
And then we also need to be able to withstand
(30:44):
the threats, like the things that are coming after us
while we're still trying to tap into our gifts and talents.
You know, in some communities not using your gifts and
talents as a sin. But for us, it's kind of like,
you know, you're just going through the motions and hoping.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
For the best.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
So if I say, you know, I say, envy, you
know zero to ten, you don't have to tell us,
but you could if you like, you know, on a
zero to ten, you know, zero mean you have nothing
in the tank, and ten is you cooking? You know,
where would you say you are on your capacity to
be able to do all those things?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
All?
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Now?
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Nine you're the nine, and so you're at a great place.
And so I might say, Okay, you know, Mby's good.
You know we're gonna keep it moving. But if he
said like four or lower, then that says to me,
as someone in his community, that I need to just
check in and say, hey, you know you're at a four, but.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
That's two day tomorrow. It could be a two.
Speaker 5 (31:32):
Tomorrow, it could be a two, right And if you
stayed at a two for weeks, then we know it's
a problem. But we have our two moments cause we're human.
And then also for me, for myself, if I ask
myself my own rating, and if it's too low, then
I know that I probably need to be working on
a boundary, Like I definitely don't need to be taken
on anything else. I don't care who it is. I
(31:53):
don't care what they ask. I cannot take on a
single thing. If I'm at a six for me personally,
if I'm at a six or lower, I'm I'm not
doing anything else.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I appreciate you. I can't today. Check in with me
in three to four five months and or I need
to add.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
Some sources of joy, you know, maybe reach out to
someone that I haven't talked to in a while, who
makes me smile, who I know isn't going to judge me.
And I do have, you know, friends and folks who
reach out to me and just say like, hey, what's
your PF. SO PF for psychological fortitude? What's your PF
right now? And depending on where I am, you know,
I don't think about it for too long because you know,
we can think. We want to get the right answer.
(32:29):
I don't know what they're going to say, like just
give a number. Like a number is so much more
neutral than saying I'm good when I'm not, or risking
saying you know, maybe someone else isn't ready for what
all I might be going through.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I begad of a number that tells you a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
My last question is you know, you know, I love
don't apologetic God to Black Pirns's Health. I swear by it.
I think it's more than a book. It's a call
to action. So what would progress look like in another
five years from now if everybody really embrace the call
to act that's.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
In this book?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (33:01):
I love that question. So in another five years, we
would have stronger communities where we're able to ask someone
what's your PF right now? And if they say something
that is a four or five, then you say, hey,
do you have time right now? Let's check in, let's
let's sit down. Or if they say something like a
two or three, then someone in the community says, let
(33:24):
me help you find a professional who can.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Work with you. That it helps to build.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Our communities, and that we have folks who are suffering
less because you know, there are a lot of people
who are suffering needlessly because they don't know whether or
not this is mental health related or am I going crazy?
Like we have legitimate language and understanding about what our
psychological fortitude is. And I introduce that in part because
(33:50):
and I think I mentioned this because when we hear
mental health, we think something else. We need to get
beyond that like we really need to get beyond this
person is crazy, this person is having a nervous breakdown,
Like that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
We need to be able to function.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
But there are people who for sure have serious challenges
and are hearing things that aren't there, and they do
need to be able to connect with someone who's going
to get them some medication. But I want us to
normalize these conversations, get folks the help that they need
so that every everyone can contribute to a better functioning society.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
All right, absolutely well, doctor Rida Walker, we appreciate a
joining thank you. If you haven't got the book, pick
up the book now is to fit the anniversary of
the release of The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
And the work book, the workbook that goes with The
Unapologetic God to Black Mental Health. I tell everybody it
is a muster read. It's one of them books that
you have to have in your household. This is the
book that we all needed, you know, growing up, Like
you know, when our parents didn't know how to talk
to us about it, or adults around us didn't know
how to talk to us about mental health.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
This book right here laid it down quite flat.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, can I can?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I just add just two brief things.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
One, thank you so much to you, because you know,
there have been a lot of people who said they
got the book because of you didn't know any thing
about it. So I am beyond grateful to you, Leonard
forgetting the word out about the book. And also, folks
can follow me. I'm most active on Instagram doctor Rita
Walker dot com. Maybe I can get five hundred more
followers to get me to twenty thousand for my birthday.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Birthday day, It's Saturday.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
On Saturday, go follow doctor Rita Walker. Right do you
say birthday, doctor Walker?
Speaker 4 (35:21):
You turn up.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Birthday.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
It's doctor Rita Walker.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up
in the morning.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
The Breakfast Club.
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