Today on The Breakfast Club, Jarrett Adams On Being Wrongfully Convicted, 'Redeeming Justice,' Mental Well-Being, Prison Reform. Listen For More!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hold up every day.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Up Breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all done?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, The Breakfast Club. Charlamagna, God,
just hilarious, DJ Envy, justin, DJ n Bey on here today,
but ll Coolbay Law and Lerossa is and we're talking
to a very special brother man.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
His name is Jared Adams.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Okay, he's got a book out called Redeeming Justice, but
he is a civil rights attorney and justice reform advocate
with an amazing story.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Good morning, my brother.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Good morning, good morning. Thank you both for having me
on here.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Absolutely you know you were You were wrongfully convicted and
spent ten years in prison for a crime you didn't commit.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, and you got seventeen I.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Believe right, seventeen years old.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Seventeen but you went on to become an attorney yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, not the first to do it, but seventeen years old,
wrongfully convicted, my conviction being over reversed, reversed after almost
ten years with the help of the Wisconsin Innocence Project.
And then it was what I saw inside the prison
that really at me on the journey that I'm on
right now. So when I get to this maximum security prison,
(01:05):
you know, I'm one of the youngest you know, inmates
who's walking around this prison. By the time I'm on
my way out, you know, of this prison, I'm looking
at mainly eighty ninety percent of the prison, it's seventeen
eighteen year old men of color. So literally the prison
boom that we talk about right now, that was when
(01:25):
I was doing my time, and it was just it
was a sight to see. So when I left for
out of those doors, I told myself, not only was
I not gonna go back, but I'm gonna try to
do something to keep people from going there and pull
out as many brothers and sisters. Now increasingly that I'm
doing as I can.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
No, I was thinking, man, when you walk into a
courtroom now as a lawyer, what part of that teenage
version of you is still present in your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
The part of it well is too. It's too you know.
I would say, it's two spirits. When I go in there.
Number One, I thank God that I'm able to walk
in there now know a champion of justice, you know,
being able to pull people out. But then also when
I go in there, there's a bit of you know,
y'all try to try to murk me. You tried to
take me out, you know what I mean. So I'm
(02:10):
walking through swinging arms like George Jefferson and this boy,
you know what I mean, like like legitly. So there's
a there's a there's a moment of being proud. There's
definitely being humble. But it's a reminder that man, look,
this is all I fight. You understand what I'm saying.
There there are more families affected now by our system,
and we got to find a way to link arms
(02:30):
and create a human chain.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
How do you identify like what clients you choose to
take on.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, it's an interesting question because for a long time, Lauren,
I was a sucker for all my son and.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
You know my mom yeh see, anybody behind bars is tough.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
It is. But then also like my going through my journey,
I went through it with my mama, my mom, a
single black mother. I go through it with her and
we became tighter. And so once I got my law degree,
and it's to help answer the question to you know
how you gotta wait in the mail for the law
degree to actually get to the house. So when you
get to the house. My mama tell me I come
over there, and I thought, I want her to keep it.
(03:08):
And so she started crying and I say, well, we
ain't crying no more, man were doing good. She said, no, no,
I'm not crying because I'm sad. I'm crying because I
know you just hang onna go try to make money.
You're gonna realize that there are other black mails with
single parents and they gonna need your help, and you're
gonna help them. Right. So, for a long time I
was a sucker for that story. And then I get
(03:29):
down deep in these cases and realize that it wasn't
exactly what it was. But it never disturbed me from
from like perfecting the process of the intake unit that
we have right now. Right I have an organization called
Life After Justice where we review these cases and we
try to select these cases on the cases that can
do a couple of different things. Right. We always want
(03:49):
to see people get out, but also if we can
get out and make a change legislatively or or some
rule that would prevent those are the cases that we
highlight and we want to put at the top of
the list.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
I saw you working on d Bence Brother's case. Yes, right,
so I know that there's no decision at this point.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Where it is one, okay, they granted the decision in
the Vince case that she saw mat if you know it,
don't know. Two white brothers from Wisconsin were wrongfully convicted
and spent twenty seven years in prison for the rape
and the murder and the kidnapping of a bar you
know bartender. Right. They ended up doing DNA testing exhuming
(04:29):
the body of the person who actually did it and
was a serial rapist, and they cleared these men. But
when they came home, they came home past the age
of retirement. And literally there's a statute in Wisconsin that
no matter how many years you've spent in prison, the
maximum you will get is twenty five thousand dollars. Right,
so you have to petition the legislators and make an
(04:50):
argument and say, look, this is why they deserve more money.
They did not make a decision up until like a
month ago, about three weeks ago, and they agreed to
pay these men and a mis million dollars plus the
twenty five thousand, and it's something that they desperately needed.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Yeah, that's that's like, that's amazing. But when you get
involved in these cases like this, right, even though you
know that there's a wrong because of the way the
system is set up.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, how do.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
You kind of save yourself from like if there is
disappointment at the end, because you know, yeah, it's fifty.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
It's continued therapy. Like I still go to therapy right
now to this day, you know, because I have to
balance my emotions no matter what the tentacles of when
you come in contact with this system that we have
in the United States, the tentacles of that contact will
always reach you through life. And the only way you
can maintain that balance is with constant therapy. And so
I encourage therapy. I do it myself because there are
(05:40):
there are we take it on the chin a lot, Lauren,
And so we have to find a way to continue
to get up off the mat. And we who are
off the mat need to find a way to keep
extending our palm and pulling people up with us.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
And that was a historic amount that they were awarding Wisconsant.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. It was. It was
an amount where it's been met before, but like only twice, okay, right,
So don't they don't necessarily give it out, and right
now there's a bill on the floor right now to
make it, you know, a law that you will get
fifty thousand dollars a year not having to go through
what they went through and hold on and wait and hope.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I agree with you on therapy.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You know, I'm a big proponent of therapy myself, man,
And I always say, you know, heal people, Healed people
will help heal people.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Hurt people will continue to hurt.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Hurt people absolutely. And my journey from listen, my journey
through mental health wasn't easy. Man. I thought I was
going to a damn fish fry. My mom and Aunties
was like, man, baby, look we need you to like
you're going to see the lady. Yeah, we need you
let it out, you know. And I think that in
our community, we are we are we rejected because we
think it's a sign of weakness, because you're like, oh, man,
(06:47):
they's crazy he going to see this and going to
see that. But for me, I was on autopilot when
I got out because all of my guys, man, it
wasn't turning up no more. They had kids, they had careers,
So I thought I could work twenty four hours a
day to catch up for almost a decade that was
taken and it wasn't mentally healthy for me. So going
(07:07):
through that, I'm understanding now that the real how I
look at this when it comes to my mental health
is these are moments of decompression and sometimes, man, you
have to go and decompress so that way you can
have the right state of mind to respond to all
the stresses that the world has to offer each and
every day.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I gotta get you on, you know, you know, I
do the mental Wealth Explorer, I do.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I do.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Shaka was telling me about that. He was like, man,
make sure you talk about that so you.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Can get on with that problem that we're going next year.
We're gonna do I want to do three or four
cities next year. So okay, I definitely need you there.
But you got a memoir Redeeming Justice, right, and the
subtitle is from Defendant to Defender? Yes, what was the
hardest chapter to write? Emotionally? And what did you learn
about yourself when you was putting your story on paper?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So it took me three years to write the book.
And part of the reason why it took me those
three years is because I wanted to read all of
the books of people with stories of wrong for conviction
because I wanted it to be honestly, I wanted it
to be and I wanted to be a salute to
my mom and my aunts. Man, they didn't have to
hold me down like that, but they did. So when
(08:11):
I write it, and when you look at the book,
you think it's a wrong for Conviction book, But if
you look at the first opening, it's a dedication to
my aunts who sugar, Honey and pizzas looking from Chicago dough.
You know what I'm saying. That's the big things, right,
And so I sent the shout out to them, because man,
they did stuff like keep me alive when I wanted
to die, and that boy, I would get a letter
(08:33):
with a verse every day from one of them, because
they told me, baby, look, we're gonna acknowledge that they've
incarcerated Joe body, but we will never let them imprison
your mind. And so I wrote this story from a
perspective of not just what the person goes through while
they're in prison, what does the family go through Because
my mama went from litis. My mother was a big
hat wearing peppermint passing Front Road Church. But when I
(08:57):
went through this, she got tired of answering the question
in Charlemagne, what happened to Jared? Where he at? You
know what I mean? It became hard for her, and
so I wanted to send a shout out to her
and then also continue to pay this about what I'm
doing in life right now.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
When you talk about like your mom and your aunt
right and you said that, they was like, Yo, you
gotta go see the lady when you're helping, because I mean,
you get people the justice that they deserve, right, but
a lot of times they don't identify that they have
issues that they need to deal with. So now you're
that person in their life when you're doing that. Like
how easy or how hard is it to tell somebody, hey,
(09:32):
you need to go get some help, Like we're going
to figure out the job and to stay, but you
need to go get some help because you're trying to
live your life.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
It's a difficult conversation. But I can use a story
that I just had. So I got a client in Chicago,
guy by the name of Shaquille Williams. He was wrongfully
arrested for a murder that they knew he didn't commit.
So we are going through the suit and one of
the toughest things about a civil suit is a deposition
because you get you get Pepper with questions, and so
he's being asked these questions that are emotionally triggering to
(10:02):
him where you know, he lost his mom while he
was locked up. He now has a wife, and I
have to explain to him and encourage him that you
have to keep going to therapy because there are situations
where when someone gets out of a place, like a
system like we have, you have to learn how to
not treat your wife like your selling and that's a
(10:23):
difficult thing to do, and you should never want to
do it alone. So what I try to do is
live my life and say look what I've done, what
I've done to make it more easier for guys to
be receptive. These are some hard dudes who think that
you know, they can't show a sign of weakness. So
if I'm telling them that I have went through and
did this time and I don't walked the same hard
tears you have, but I still revert back to therapy
(10:43):
because it has helped me tie my shoes in a
race that is life.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Ooh ooh, I've heard you say the criminal justice system
is rigged, yeah, and that justice is for sale. So
when you look at the current system, what are the
top two or three pressure points that most clearly show
you how like money and race still determine these outcomes.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Look at what we got going on right now, man, Like,
just look at what we what we got we have.
We have a system that it depends on who you
know and what you have right, and it will determine
your result. We are seeing right now our justice department,
you know, being used in such a way that is scary,
but also being used in a way that we must
(11:23):
ask ourselves, like why they weren't doing this for us,
you know what I mean? Like while we wasn't getting
this right. So I think that the low hanging fruit
is this. We must find a way to step in
where there are clear gaps in our system, and there
are wealth gaps that determine a whole lot of the
(11:43):
sentences and stuff like that. We need to get as
loud as we can for Lakeisha as we do for Bryant.
You get what I'm saying. And I think that I
really do believe that our way of fixing fixing the
system itself. And Angela Rye and a lot of other
of my colleagues say the same thing. We have to
(12:04):
focus in the individual states, right, That's what we have
to focus at. But once we start to work together
in these individual states, I think that we must then
be able to link arms and start to petition the
change that can make it up to the Supreme Court
to make that governmental change that will affect the United States.
And it's all in its entirety. So in short, what
(12:25):
we need to do is the people who are closest
to the fire usually know how to put it out,
but that the ferses from the water holes. We need
to find a way to feed the waterholes to the
people who are on the ground, the activists, the people
who are going to the courtrooms, the people who can
tell you, look, don't vote for this judge, vote for
that judge, because this judge will make the change. However,
(12:46):
we can go back and make sure that our vote counts.
We have to be educated in order to do it,
but that is what we have to do in order
to start to tinker away at this mighty, mighty system.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I wanted to ask you about this.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's why I got up out because the track you're
on is I want to stay on this track.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What did you think, man?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Because this really really disappointed me when I saw our
good brother, my son, and that's my daughter the front
page of the New York Post labeled as a crime boss.
Because Doron Madani is essentially doing what you're saying people
should do. He's going to get somebody who's been through
the system, who's reformed, put them in place on the
Public Safety Committee. I don't think that's a better representative
(13:23):
to have than somebody like a my song. And for
him to be demonized like this, how did that make
you feel?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean, look at it. I felt attack. I felt
attacked with that brother and I know him, like you
know what I'm saying, and me and me and we
just talked about a case. I have a new Jersey
a few, you know, weeks ago. The case is Rore
Hee and Brian. You could look at it. The kid
was shot in the back of the neck. We got
an assessive, assessive, uh, you know, force you going. But
I was just rotating with that brother. So when I
(13:48):
looked at that and I saw it, it came up
on my timeline and I immediately felt attacked. You know
what I'm saying as if it was me, And I
think we all should have that type of response. And
I'll just say this for anyone who's questioning, you know
this move right when we just came through the pandemic, right,
and we got through the pandemic through vaccines, right. So
the vaccines are actually what the virus that has turned
(14:11):
into an antibody, right, and we injected in ourselves as
a defense mechanism. If this brother, which I know he
will do with his experience being in this position, he
is a voice that is the closest thing to the
problems that we have to be able to provide us
a solution. Why would we not want that? If we
(14:31):
have a president right now who is the president, and
he's been convicted of something, why can't we have a
brother like this and more sisters like this in positions
where they can say, look, I know what it's like
right to be at home, not have childcare, and have
to not be able to work, So that way they
can provise the solution you want us to all come
off dedicating all these dumbass arguments that you hear about
(14:53):
with black people on snap. They don't stay on that. Well,
why don't you put the people who have had the
experience and why they had to be on snap position
to be able to provide solutions so that we could
snap snap the fuck out of here, if that's what
you're all want to do, right?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Is it just bothers me?
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Man? When I see your brother, you know, who went
to prison, what he got convicted with.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Ninety nine.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Years old, forty nine You've you've been a model citizen
since you've been home, and as soon as something like
this happens, you get labeled a crime boss.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
A crime ball?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Is it not liable?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I mean, listen, what I would do is this I'm
and I'm offering this for this brother if you want,
I would strongly send them a letter, you know, and
a letter would be a cease and desist, and would also,
you know, give the real facts, cause that brother ain't
never been no crime boss. Never understand. But look, let
me tell you how scary this is and what they
did to him. And this is what this reminded me of.
So we we had the rico that was made famous
(15:47):
by Judie Allen in New York taking down and tackling
the mod problem. Right shortly after his success in doing that,
who do you think became the target of the rico?
Exactly inside a neighbor hoods that you and I know
where guys were CouchSurfing, but all of a sudden when
they got to federal court, they were named to be
the federal you know, a guy who did everything and
(16:11):
they're the king pin and all of that to be
able to slam, slander us and continue to keep us
in the historical depiction that has hindered black men forever.
That's exactly what I thought about when I saw her.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Absolutely, it's not switching gears. I guess it's kind of
in the same vein. There was a case that I
know that you were involved in as well, the Waverley case. Yes, yes,
I thought we're talking about like people not being able
to live down what people title you at. So talk
a bit about that case and how those brothers were
found not guilty but still sitting and then you had
(16:45):
to fight, like explain a little bit, because when I
run it, I'm like, this makes no sense. Do you
still have to stick with that the rest of your life?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And it's a good outcome to that too, So I'm
glad you brought that up, and let me also send
a shout out to Ta Mika Mallory and also mindstn'.
That's where I first became in contact with them because
they saw my push on that story and they gave
me a platform to tell that story at a larger
place and help because we had to get them out
on a presidential commutation. So here's what happened in this case.
(17:13):
Two brothers down in Waverley, Virginia, and Waverley, Virginia has
a dirty history. They are one of the last known
towns to do a public open lynching, right, So that's
the atmosphere in which these guys are charged with the
murder of a police officer. And you know, they ain't
got no money, ain't a lot of platforms and stuff down,
(17:37):
ain't a lot of exposure. This is nineteen ninety eight.
So they are talked into taking plea deals that should
already signal to you all this some bullshit, right, So
they plead to taran accessory after the fact and Terrence
pled to a man slat of charge in this case
even though there was nothing to no evidence at all.
(17:58):
But they were theyasically told by their attorney. Look, man,
if you get the death penalty, which they were facing,
ain't no way out of that even if you did
you know, if you did not do it, you can
get the death penalty. People get locked up and go
to jail for stuff they didn't do all all the time.
So they took these plea deals. When they took the
plea deals, they thought they were just going to have
to do five years and the other one had, you know,
(18:19):
time released. The fans came around and indicted them as
king pins of being drug dealers, and they said the
murder was a result of them being king pins, right,
and they were able to retry them in federal court.
They go to federal court, they're found not guilty of
the murder of this police officer, but they're found guilty
(18:42):
of selling drugs, and they were sentenced to life in
prison as an enhancement based on their guilty please in
state court. So as a result, they're in federal prison
for twenty something plus years, not because they're found guilty
of killing the officer, but because they played guilty to
save their life and their life was still taken from them.
It is one of the most insane stories ever. We
(19:04):
went to the last hour of Biden's presidency and he
finally signed a commutation to commute their sentence. They came
home and they've discharged off of their their their federal papers,
and they're released. And we just did an event with
them and we're working on the documentary to tell their
story because we're trying to change the law. You should
(19:24):
not be able to be found not guilty but still
sentenced to life based on allegations in other matters. It's
just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
How did y'all get the Biden administration to move because
they weren't. They weren't moving on nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Man, Charla Mane, when I tell you the squeakiest we'll
get the oil. Man, I was squeaky in the motherfucker
like I just I wouldn't stop. Man. I went around
and thankfully I got the support of some Virginia politicians
and legislators. Man, we're talking about Tim Kaine and a
bunch of folks who it took me nine years to
get them out, So it wasn't like it was no
(19:56):
short things. So they knew who I was. And I
just think I think it was a matter of me
being constant, me being persistent in God opening them doors.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
To be honest with you, absolutely, how do you determine
whether or not a potential client is actually innocent?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Sometimes you just got to go through it to find out, man.
And I ain't gonna lie to you. Look, I done been,
you know, thousands of dollars in hours and hours in
only for DNA results to come back, and it wasn't
telling me the truth. But let me say this, man,
that can't stop us from sending the elevator back down,
That can't keep us from extending our palms man, because
there are some innocent brothers and oversentssed sisters and brothers
(20:33):
who deserve our help. They need our help. And so
if I get one out of ten, I take that one.
I mean, that's how important it is to our culture, man,
that we make sure we don't have a bad experience
that makes us close to do it to everybody.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
My question for you, when I at my last job,
I used to do these stories whenever we would hear
about like Kim Kardashian or like you know, just any
of the attorneys she was working with getting involved rough
celebrities in general would speak out about people needing to
be put back in front of a judge because something
was done wrong in the legal system. There would be
the other side, the families of these people who thought, Okay,
(21:06):
I finally have peace, the case is solved, now we
can rest, and then this comes back up and it
kind of opens up a doorback for that right. How
do you as an attorney deal with that because you
want justice for the people who are wrong the justice system,
but then it's opening up a whole new world of
like chaos for this family connected to the person who
yes was harmed.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Here's what we do in our practice and what we
do at Life After Justice. So after we do their
full investigation, we presented to the victim's family as well,
because we deserve it. They we think they deserve to
have full closure, not the closure that they have been
forced to get. So that case of Terrence and Faran,
I took the complete and total investigation to the family
(21:49):
of the officer and at one point his daughter was like, look,
I have my attorney read this and I'm going to
provide you with the letter that says I want complete
and total transparency. I want to know what happened to
my father. That letter went a long way and helping,
and so I think that that is a way that
you can do it. I think it's deserving, right, because
you're opening up wounds and someone tragically lost their life
(22:12):
and situations like that. I think we have to be
respectful in mindful of everyone's feelings.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I want to talk about you know, the prison library, right.
I read when you started reading case law in the
prison library. Yeah, and helping other guys with their cases.
We always hear about that, Yeah, But and you did
that before you ever set foot in the law school classroom.
How did that prison law school shape you differently than
the traditional legal education.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think what it did for me is personally, it
helped me to better understand my clients and listen. Also,
I mean I think that as an attorney, I think
sometimes man, we can just be like, I know what
I'm doing and stuff like that. I think what it
did for me is it made me understand that just
as portant as important as it is when in the case,
(22:56):
and you also need to personalize yourself and learn from
your clients and stuff like that. And so I think
that I'm sitting across from guys who are you know,
rightfully convicted, wrongfully convicted and I'm helping them out. And
I think what it helped me do was master become
a master class of the client communications that is necessary
to be victorious in these tough cases.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You know what I think about, and this is a
lot of times I think about even people who are
locked up right that may actually have done what they
did and they need like some form of rehabilitation. Are
we ever going to figure out a system that like
actually rehabilitates people but also balances punishment, because I do
think there is a form of punishment needed, but when
(23:38):
it's your family member, you don't feel like that. But realistically,
like it's like the conversation we have around like defund
the police and what is actually supposed to mean what
people think We're saying, Yeah, you need police, but you
need them to like be human.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Why can't we just advance, Like we've advanced in technology, man,
And we advanced in technology from learning, right, we learned
from our mistakes. We got better. Used to have to
remember the phone with the core, man, My mama had
a fifty extension court. We used to walk around to
how we go to the basement at that phone. We've
advanced from that, so it's like, why can't we advance
in these things that affect our lives as much as
(24:12):
this criminal system does. And I'll tell you in my perspective.
So this is what I think is the problem. We
have an adversarial system. And I don't care if it's
a spitball contest or a pencil popping contest. You gonna
want to win. Right when you win this contest. I'll
give you an example of what I mean by that.
I did a study of broad in London because I
was trying to get through law school and the only
(24:32):
way you can get like a bunch of credits was
if you did this study of Broad. So I went
over there. I spent about four weeks in The assignment
was you need to go to their criminal system, see
what's there, and write a paper on what you think
will work in our system. So when I got there
and you sit up in the top, you know of
this thing called the Old Bailey or whatever it is, right,
and you look down at the barristers, who are both
(24:55):
men and women, and they're doing these arguments. And I
remember this lady man. She was kicking man. She was
kicking this dude butt up in there right with the
argument that she had, and it was it was involved
in the sense of the subject. It was involving actually
a rape case, right, And then I seen her come
back like three days later, and now she was actually
defending a guy who was accused of a rape with
(25:18):
the same passion and the same just vigorous, like this
is my client. What I walked away from with that
is you know what, That's how they're able to preserve
the sympathy and empathy that is missing out of our system.
We just want to win as defense attorneys. We just
want to win as prosecutors, and sometimes when that happens,
(25:38):
the thing that has lost is justice. I'm just going
to say.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
It's been like that for like this whole thing and
like breaking this whole system. When people had that conversation,
I'm like, it's been like this for so many years,
Like it's so far beyond us. Like sometimes I wonder,
why do we believe that it's going to just be
able to change and like you'll be able to change
even people's spirits to not want to just win the case.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Man, We got to get people closer to what is
really happening, you know, and that's going to make people
want to change. I think that, you know, until it,
until Trump was actually prosecuted by the system, don't you
think he had a problem with the system? You know
what I mean? No, until he was prosecuted by it,
then he had a problem with the system. Right, So
(26:22):
I think that I.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Still don't think he has a problem with how it
does certain people, meaning black and brown people.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, that's true too, but.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
He has because his privilege when he encountered the system
is a lot different and a lot of times you
got people who create do these like you know, certain
collar crimes and put in certain facilities. Yeah, so different
than what we know. Like when I have a family
member going to prison, it's a different experience. So even
their close experience doesn't change how they view things because
(26:50):
it's different for them.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It's my opinion, right, it is different for them. But
but I use something my grandfather used to use, which
is man. You know, look, sometimes people don't underst shit
to that shit on the bottom of their shoe, right,
And that's that's really one of them things where it's
like we need our leaders and I'm not gonna identify
and point out on names. We need our leaders man
to start to make the quick rapid change that we're
(27:15):
seeing right now with this current administration. Man, Like, legitly,
I don't.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I don't think they had a courage to do it now,
even if they get back in position with all the
tools at their disposal, I don't think they got the courage.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Well, I'll just say this, listen, don't do the job then,
you know what I mean, Like, if you don't have
the courage to do what is necessary, don't do the
job like we need y'all. Like, legitly, man, we need y'all.
Especially as an attorney in court every day, Man, I'm
seeing every day how slight changes could change the system. Like,
for example, why do public defenders have the budget of
a school teacher but the caseload of an entire administration.
(27:49):
It ain't fair, you know what I mean? Like, so
why can't we come in and just change that system alone?
Ninety percent of the public relies on public defense, Like
public defenders are different organizations like that. So it's like, man,
if you want to change this system, why can't we
change the budget to that? If you look at the
pot chart and the Department of Justice, we spend the
majority of that on what they call policing right, that's
(28:13):
locking people up, that's building new prisons. We got a
smart you can't even see that dot on what they
spend on reintegration and mental health care. So it's like,
why not just start there and you tell me if
it worked. I give you another example. We've seen the
war on drugs create mass incarceration. There was billions of
dollars that were spent on the war on drugs. Let
(28:34):
me see a war on childcare. Let me see a
war on the school systems in Hyrack where I'm from.
Let me see a war on putting them jobs back
that in those areas, replacing those liquor stores with those jobs.
And you talk to me in ten years and you
tell me if that ain't produced a better product.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Man, you said something earlier when you were talking about
like the prosecutors. Man, it made me think, like you
stent on both sides, right defended and attorney, what's one
thing you wish every prosecutor, judge and cop had to
experience or learn before they're allowed to hold that kind
of power over somebody's life.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Man, I really mishtaken experience a day in prison, in
a day with the family members at home. Who have
they loved ones in prison? Right? Because you're talking about
astronomical phone calls. Prisons ain't placed in the city. They
Appalachia somewhere, right. You know what I'm saying. You got
to drive a Clinton correctional You ever went to Clinton.
I got a couple of clients up there. Man, you
(29:32):
might as well block out your calendar for that day,
right and hope everything work out. So it's like that
that part of it, in my opinion, is again they
need to experience it, just to have that sympathy and empathy. Man.
Everything doesn't require a hammer, you understand what I'm saying.
(29:52):
And that's that just seems like what happens when you
get us in front of one of these systems. Man,
we all are like nails to them.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
For people who listening, man, who will never see the
inside of a courtroom beyond jury duty, what's one specific
action they can take, you know, right now to actually
move the needle on wrongful convictions and criminal justice reform
in their own city?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Pay attention man, like legitly man, if you're gonna be
there and you're gonna show and also listen. In general,
black folks show up the jury duty. Come on, y'all
like legitly, man, like we have to show up the
jury duty. Like you just don't know how many jury
pools in the Northern District of Illinois where I'm doing
a wrongful conviction case and I ain't got nothing but
one or two of us in there, and then we're
(30:33):
trying to get about that motherfucker like we need y'all. Man,
we listen, look, our turn up cannot outweigh our turnout
like legitly like that. So for me and my perspective,
I like to have a good time too, man, But man,
when it's time, when it's time to turn out, we
got to turn out. Please show up the jury duty, y'all. Y'all, y'all,
you just don't know. Man. If we get a jury
(30:55):
pool that is diverse, right, we now cantrol a lot
of the outcomes. Man, show up, show up, if you
can be there, be there, right. I'll be like, man, Charlamagne,
I'll be trying to get people are eye contact when
they be on the jury pool, like please please don't no,
it's go stand up and say you got a baby
like that. Come on, But that's that's what we need
because we present the case, but the jury makes a decision.
(31:18):
We need black and brown folk. And let me make
sure that I'm clarifying that not just black for black
and brown folk, because we ain't the minority if we
link up, you know what I'm saying. So that's what
we need. Show up the jury duty, that's it, and
even pay attention in that, take notes and stuff like that.
Be active in your participation because what your what your
vote counts for right there in that moment, it's critical
(31:39):
to the lives of a lot of my clients and
a lot of lawyer's clients.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
What gives you hope that meaningful justice reform is actually possible?
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Man?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
The cases, Man, I just look at the cases and
I and I also am just a person who wants
to be hopeful. I have to be right going through
what I went through. Man, I'm a prayerful person. I'm
a I'm a hopeful person. And I also get an
opportunity to look at the babies that we have that
are coming up right now. Man, and I'm I'm I'm afraid, y'all.
Ain't don't even lie, you know, when I'm looking to
(32:09):
talking to these mothers and fathers in these courtrooms. I
believe that it's desensitizing our babies to believe that the
criminal system is just a part of our lives. And
some kids never experience that only in the movie and
I and I. You know, I give you another example
of of of people ask me, man, what's what's the
toughest thing you've ever seen in prison? They expect me
to say a knife fight or something like that. Man,
(32:30):
I tell you the toughest thing that I ever seen
in this prison. So I'm playing ball on the first
couple of years that I get to to Green Bay Correctional.
Green Bay Correctional in Wisconsin was was is a. It's
a tough place, okay, And right now they are they
are stabbing each other up in there, and it's just
it doesn't make any sense what's going on with the violence.
So I'm passing time. I playing basketball, and you know,
(32:53):
everybody picking a squad, everybody got a nickname. And I'm hearing,
you know, these guys on the other team, and they're
like G Pops old man and G's son, right, I'm
just thinking that they all from the same block. You
know what I'm saying. I ain't no, I ain't no.
At all. It wasn't until I got in the visiting
room and I was visiting. My mama came up to
see me from Chicago, and I'm in the visiting room
(33:16):
and I didn't realize, Man, this was three generations. Man,
this was a grandfather, a father and his son.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
God.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
But what really messed me up was two women came
to see him with three kids, and it was a
little girl with him, and man, the little girl came
through the medalal detective and raised the armor to be
wanded because she was looking at her mama and grandmama
be wanded coming to the prison. And you don't wand
(33:45):
the kids anything like that? Man, like you, you know
you this is a baby. What's she doing at three
four years old? Knowing that she's supposed to stick her
arms up in the air. I said, man, look we
got addressed. We need to implement inside our schools of
psychology sections that address specifically people who encounter the system,
(34:09):
whether it be family members or whether it be people
who are there in order to make some real, real,
real change. That is the thing that I will never forget,
And that happened almost twenty seven years ago. But I
never forget it.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You talk about the importance of pro bono work.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Oh, look, I know.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
That's a part of the reason why even with your situation, right.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, an instance project got me out. It's important that
we donate to the right organizations that are doing the
work on the ground. And look, man, it's tough. You
understand what I'm saying. There's a lot of organizations, a
lot of people doing the same work, but we are system.
There are people. Once you get convicted, you on your own,
as a matter of fact, not people everybody. Once you
(34:51):
get convicted and that first appeal is over with, you're
on your own, right, So there are people who will
never have an opportunity to present their case of innocence,
not because they're not innocent, but because there's no money
around to do it. So we have to donate to
organizations like my organization, Life After Justice, people who are
doing the work and taking on cases pro bono to
be able to really get them the help that they need.
(35:14):
We have to do this right because there are there
are no The cavalry ain't coming.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
We the cavalry ourselves. That's sh listen man. Jared Adams
his book Redeeming Justice from Defending to defender my fight
for equity on both sides of a broken system is
available everywhere you buy books now, man, thank you man.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
How can we continue to support your work?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I know Life After Justice, but also the website is
is Jared Adams all dot com. Life after Justice dot
org is the website and y'all can support by sharing
the story. Man, like honestly, Charla Magne. Listen, if we're
gonna have a donkey of today, let's do a King
of Queen of the day. You know what I'm saying.
Straight up, Man, I love y'all. Thank y'all. I appreciate you, brother,
(35:59):
I really do, man, So I really do.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's Jared Adams is the breakfast Club.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Hold up every day a weak click your ass up
the breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You're finish what y'all done.
Hold up every day.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Up Breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all done?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, The Breakfast Club. Charlamagna, God,
just hilarious, DJ Envy, justin, DJ n Bey on here today,
but ll Coolbay Law and Lerossa is and we're talking
to a very special brother man.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
His name is Jared Adams.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Okay, he's got a book out called Redeeming Justice, but
he is a civil rights attorney and justice reform advocate
with an amazing story.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Good morning, my brother.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Good morning, good morning. Thank you both for having me
on here.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Absolutely you know you were You were wrongfully convicted and
spent ten years in prison for a crime you didn't commit.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, and you got seventeen I.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Believe right, seventeen years old.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Seventeen but you went on to become an attorney yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, not the first to do it, but seventeen years old,
wrongfully convicted, my conviction being over reversed, reversed after almost
ten years with the help of the Wisconsin Innocence Project.
And then it was what I saw inside the prison
that really at me on the journey that I'm on
right now. So when I get to this maximum security prison,
(01:05):
you know, I'm one of the youngest you know, inmates
who's walking around this prison. By the time I'm on
my way out, you know, of this prison, I'm looking
at mainly eighty ninety percent of the prison, it's seventeen
eighteen year old men of color. So literally the prison
boom that we talk about right now, that was when
(01:25):
I was doing my time, and it was just it
was a sight to see. So when I left for
out of those doors, I told myself, not only was
I not gonna go back, but I'm gonna try to
do something to keep people from going there and pull
out as many brothers and sisters. Now increasingly that I'm
doing as I can.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
No, I was thinking, man, when you walk into a
courtroom now as a lawyer, what part of that teenage
version of you is still present in your mind?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
The part of it well is too. It's too you know.
I would say, it's two spirits. When I go in there.
Number One, I thank God that I'm able to walk
in there now know a champion of justice, you know,
being able to pull people out. But then also when
I go in there, there's a bit of you know,
y'all try to try to murk me. You tried to
take me out, you know what I mean. So I'm
(02:10):
walking through swinging arms like George Jefferson and this boy,
you know what I mean, like like legitly. So there's
a there's a there's a moment of being proud. There's
definitely being humble. But it's a reminder that man, look,
this is all I fight. You understand what I'm saying.
There there are more families affected now by our system,
and we got to find a way to link arms
(02:30):
and create a human chain.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
How do you identify like what clients you choose to
take on.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, it's an interesting question because for a long time, Lauren,
I was a sucker for all my son and.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
You know my mom yeh see, anybody behind bars is tough.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
It is. But then also like my going through my journey,
I went through it with my mama, my mom, a
single black mother. I go through it with her and
we became tighter. And so once I got my law degree,
and it's to help answer the question to you know
how you gotta wait in the mail for the law
degree to actually get to the house. So when you
get to the house. My mama tell me I come
over there, and I thought, I want her to keep it.
(03:08):
And so she started crying and I say, well, we
ain't crying no more, man were doing good. She said, no, no,
I'm not crying because I'm sad. I'm crying because I
know you just hang onna go try to make money.
You're gonna realize that there are other black mails with
single parents and they gonna need your help, and you're
gonna help them. Right. So, for a long time I
was a sucker for that story. And then I get
(03:29):
down deep in these cases and realize that it wasn't
exactly what it was. But it never disturbed me from
from like perfecting the process of the intake unit that
we have right now. Right I have an organization called
Life After Justice where we review these cases and we
try to select these cases on the cases that can
do a couple of different things. Right. We always want
(03:49):
to see people get out, but also if we can
get out and make a change legislatively or or some
rule that would prevent those are the cases that we
highlight and we want to put at the top of
the list.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
I saw you working on d Bence Brother's case. Yes, right,
so I know that there's no decision at this point.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Where it is one, okay, they granted the decision in
the Vince case that she saw mat if you know it,
don't know. Two white brothers from Wisconsin were wrongfully convicted
and spent twenty seven years in prison for the rape
and the murder and the kidnapping of a bar you
know bartender. Right. They ended up doing DNA testing exhuming
(04:29):
the body of the person who actually did it and
was a serial rapist, and they cleared these men. But
when they came home, they came home past the age
of retirement. And literally there's a statute in Wisconsin that
no matter how many years you've spent in prison, the
maximum you will get is twenty five thousand dollars. Right,
so you have to petition the legislators and make an
(04:50):
argument and say, look, this is why they deserve more money.
They did not make a decision up until like a
month ago, about three weeks ago, and they agreed to
pay these men and a mis million dollars plus the
twenty five thousand, and it's something that they desperately needed.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Yeah, that's that's like, that's amazing. But when you get
involved in these cases like this, right, even though you
know that there's a wrong because of the way the
system is set up.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, how do.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
You kind of save yourself from like if there is
disappointment at the end, because you know, yeah, it's fifty.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
It's continued therapy. Like I still go to therapy right
now to this day, you know, because I have to
balance my emotions no matter what the tentacles of when
you come in contact with this system that we have
in the United States, the tentacles of that contact will
always reach you through life. And the only way you
can maintain that balance is with constant therapy. And so
I encourage therapy. I do it myself because there are
(05:40):
there are we take it on the chin a lot, Lauren,
And so we have to find a way to continue
to get up off the mat. And we who are
off the mat need to find a way to keep
extending our palm and pulling people up with us.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
And that was a historic amount that they were awarding Wisconsant.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. It was. It was
an amount where it's been met before, but like only twice, okay, right,
So don't they don't necessarily give it out, and right
now there's a bill on the floor right now to
make it, you know, a law that you will get
fifty thousand dollars a year not having to go through
what they went through and hold on and wait and hope.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I agree with you on therapy.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You know, I'm a big proponent of therapy myself, man,
And I always say, you know, heal people, Healed people
will help heal people.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Hurt people will continue to hurt.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Hurt people absolutely. And my journey from listen, my journey
through mental health wasn't easy. Man. I thought I was
going to a damn fish fry. My mom and Aunties
was like, man, baby, look we need you to like
you're going to see the lady. Yeah, we need you
let it out, you know. And I think that in
our community, we are we are we rejected because we
think it's a sign of weakness, because you're like, oh, man,
(06:47):
they's crazy he going to see this and going to
see that. But for me, I was on autopilot when
I got out because all of my guys, man, it
wasn't turning up no more. They had kids, they had careers,
So I thought I could work twenty four hours a
day to catch up for almost a decade that was
taken and it wasn't mentally healthy for me. So going
(07:07):
through that, I'm understanding now that the real how I
look at this when it comes to my mental health
is these are moments of decompression and sometimes, man, you
have to go and decompress so that way you can
have the right state of mind to respond to all
the stresses that the world has to offer each and
every day.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I gotta get you on, you know, you know, I
do the mental Wealth Explorer, I do.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I do.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Shaka was telling me about that. He was like, man,
make sure you talk about that so you.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Can get on with that problem that we're going next year.
We're gonna do I want to do three or four
cities next year. So okay, I definitely need you there.
But you got a memoir Redeeming Justice, right, and the
subtitle is from Defendant to Defender? Yes, what was the
hardest chapter to write? Emotionally? And what did you learn
about yourself when you was putting your story on paper?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So it took me three years to write the book.
And part of the reason why it took me those
three years is because I wanted to read all of
the books of people with stories of wrong for conviction
because I wanted it to be honestly, I wanted it
to be and I wanted to be a salute to
my mom and my aunts. Man, they didn't have to
hold me down like that, but they did. So when
(08:11):
I write it, and when you look at the book,
you think it's a wrong for Conviction book, But if
you look at the first opening, it's a dedication to
my aunts who sugar, Honey and pizzas looking from Chicago dough.
You know what I'm saying. That's the big things, right,
And so I sent the shout out to them, because man,
they did stuff like keep me alive when I wanted
to die, and that boy, I would get a letter
(08:33):
with a verse every day from one of them, because
they told me, baby, look, we're gonna acknowledge that they've
incarcerated Joe body, but we will never let them imprison
your mind. And so I wrote this story from a
perspective of not just what the person goes through while
they're in prison, what does the family go through Because
my mama went from litis. My mother was a big
hat wearing peppermint passing Front Road Church. But when I
(08:57):
went through this, she got tired of answering the question
in Charlemagne, what happened to Jared? Where he at? You
know what I mean? It became hard for her, and
so I wanted to send a shout out to her
and then also continue to pay this about what I'm
doing in life right now.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
When you talk about like your mom and your aunt
right and you said that, they was like, Yo, you
gotta go see the lady when you're helping, because I mean,
you get people the justice that they deserve, right, but
a lot of times they don't identify that they have
issues that they need to deal with. So now you're
that person in their life when you're doing that. Like
how easy or how hard is it to tell somebody, hey,
(09:32):
you need to go get some help, Like we're going
to figure out the job and to stay, but you
need to go get some help because you're trying to
live your life.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
It's a difficult conversation. But I can use a story
that I just had. So I got a client in Chicago,
guy by the name of Shaquille Williams. He was wrongfully
arrested for a murder that they knew he didn't commit.
So we are going through the suit and one of
the toughest things about a civil suit is a deposition
because you get you get Pepper with questions, and so
he's being asked these questions that are emotionally triggering to
(10:02):
him where you know, he lost his mom while he
was locked up. He now has a wife, and I
have to explain to him and encourage him that you
have to keep going to therapy because there are situations
where when someone gets out of a place, like a
system like we have, you have to learn how to
not treat your wife like your selling and that's a
(10:23):
difficult thing to do, and you should never want to
do it alone. So what I try to do is
live my life and say look what I've done, what
I've done to make it more easier for guys to
be receptive. These are some hard dudes who think that
you know, they can't show a sign of weakness. So
if I'm telling them that I have went through and
did this time and I don't walked the same hard
tears you have, but I still revert back to therapy
(10:43):
because it has helped me tie my shoes in a
race that is life.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Ooh ooh, I've heard you say the criminal justice system
is rigged, yeah, and that justice is for sale. So
when you look at the current system, what are the
top two or three pressure points that most clearly show
you how like money and race still determine these outcomes.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Look at what we got going on right now, man, Like,
just look at what we what we got we have.
We have a system that it depends on who you
know and what you have right, and it will determine
your result. We are seeing right now our justice department,
you know, being used in such a way that is scary,
but also being used in a way that we must
(11:23):
ask ourselves, like why they weren't doing this for us,
you know what I mean? Like while we wasn't getting
this right. So I think that the low hanging fruit
is this. We must find a way to step in
where there are clear gaps in our system, and there
are wealth gaps that determine a whole lot of the
(11:43):
sentences and stuff like that. We need to get as
loud as we can for Lakeisha as we do for Bryant.
You get what I'm saying. And I think that I
really do believe that our way of fixing fixing the
system itself. And Angela Rye and a lot of other
of my colleagues say the same thing. We have to
(12:04):
focus in the individual states, right, That's what we have
to focus at. But once we start to work together
in these individual states, I think that we must then
be able to link arms and start to petition the
change that can make it up to the Supreme Court
to make that governmental change that will affect the United States.
And it's all in its entirety. So in short, what
(12:25):
we need to do is the people who are closest
to the fire usually know how to put it out,
but that the ferses from the water holes. We need
to find a way to feed the waterholes to the
people who are on the ground, the activists, the people
who are going to the courtrooms, the people who can
tell you, look, don't vote for this judge, vote for
that judge, because this judge will make the change. However,
(12:46):
we can go back and make sure that our vote counts.
We have to be educated in order to do it,
but that is what we have to do in order
to start to tinker away at this mighty, mighty system.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I wanted to ask you about this.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's why I got up out because the track you're
on is I want to stay on this track.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What did you think, man?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Because this really really disappointed me when I saw our
good brother, my son, and that's my daughter the front
page of the New York Post labeled as a crime boss.
Because Doron Madani is essentially doing what you're saying people
should do. He's going to get somebody who's been through
the system, who's reformed, put them in place on the
Public Safety Committee. I don't think that's a better representative
(13:23):
to have than somebody like a my song. And for
him to be demonized like this, how did that make
you feel?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean, look at it. I felt attack. I felt
attacked with that brother and I know him, like you
know what I'm saying, and me and me and we
just talked about a case. I have a new Jersey
a few, you know, weeks ago. The case is Rore
Hee and Brian. You could look at it. The kid
was shot in the back of the neck. We got
an assessive, assessive, uh, you know, force you going. But
I was just rotating with that brother. So when I
(13:48):
looked at that and I saw it, it came up
on my timeline and I immediately felt attacked. You know
what I'm saying as if it was me, And I
think we all should have that type of response. And
I'll just say this for anyone who's questioning, you know
this move right when we just came through the pandemic, right,
and we got through the pandemic through vaccines, right. So
the vaccines are actually what the virus that has turned
(14:11):
into an antibody, right, and we injected in ourselves as
a defense mechanism. If this brother, which I know he
will do with his experience being in this position, he
is a voice that is the closest thing to the
problems that we have to be able to provide us
a solution. Why would we not want that? If we
(14:31):
have a president right now who is the president, and
he's been convicted of something, why can't we have a
brother like this and more sisters like this in positions
where they can say, look, I know what it's like
right to be at home, not have childcare, and have
to not be able to work, So that way they
can provise the solution you want us to all come
off dedicating all these dumbass arguments that you hear about
(14:53):
with black people on snap. They don't stay on that. Well,
why don't you put the people who have had the
experience and why they had to be on snap position
to be able to provide solutions so that we could
snap snap the fuck out of here, if that's what
you're all want to do, right?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Is it just bothers me?
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Man? When I see your brother, you know, who went
to prison, what he got convicted with.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Ninety nine.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Years old, forty nine You've you've been a model citizen
since you've been home, and as soon as something like
this happens, you get labeled a crime boss.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
A crime ball?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Is it not liable?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I mean, listen, what I would do is this I'm
and I'm offering this for this brother if you want,
I would strongly send them a letter, you know, and
a letter would be a cease and desist, and would also,
you know, give the real facts, cause that brother ain't
never been no crime boss. Never understand. But look, let
me tell you how scary this is and what they
did to him. And this is what this reminded me of.
So we we had the rico that was made famous
(15:47):
by Judie Allen in New York taking down and tackling
the mod problem. Right shortly after his success in doing that,
who do you think became the target of the rico?
Exactly inside a neighbor hoods that you and I know
where guys were CouchSurfing, but all of a sudden when
they got to federal court, they were named to be
the federal you know, a guy who did everything and
(16:11):
they're the king pin and all of that to be
able to slam, slander us and continue to keep us
in the historical depiction that has hindered black men forever.
That's exactly what I thought about when I saw her.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Absolutely, it's not switching gears. I guess it's kind of
in the same vein. There was a case that I
know that you were involved in as well, the Waverley case. Yes, yes,
I thought we're talking about like people not being able
to live down what people title you at. So talk
a bit about that case and how those brothers were
found not guilty but still sitting and then you had
(16:45):
to fight, like explain a little bit, because when I
run it, I'm like, this makes no sense. Do you
still have to stick with that the rest of your life?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And it's a good outcome to that too, So I'm
glad you brought that up, and let me also send
a shout out to Ta Mika Mallory and also mindstn'.
That's where I first became in contact with them because
they saw my push on that story and they gave
me a platform to tell that story at a larger
place and help because we had to get them out
on a presidential commutation. So here's what happened in this case.
(17:13):
Two brothers down in Waverley, Virginia, and Waverley, Virginia has
a dirty history. They are one of the last known
towns to do a public open lynching, right, So that's
the atmosphere in which these guys are charged with the
murder of a police officer. And you know, they ain't
got no money, ain't a lot of platforms and stuff down,
(17:37):
ain't a lot of exposure. This is nineteen ninety eight.
So they are talked into taking plea deals that should
already signal to you all this some bullshit, right, So
they plead to taran accessory after the fact and Terrence
pled to a man slat of charge in this case
even though there was nothing to no evidence at all.
(17:58):
But they were theyasically told by their attorney. Look, man,
if you get the death penalty, which they were facing,
ain't no way out of that even if you did
you know, if you did not do it, you can
get the death penalty. People get locked up and go
to jail for stuff they didn't do all all the time.
So they took these plea deals. When they took the
plea deals, they thought they were just going to have
to do five years and the other one had, you know,
(18:19):
time released. The fans came around and indicted them as
king pins of being drug dealers, and they said the
murder was a result of them being king pins, right,
and they were able to retry them in federal court.
They go to federal court, they're found not guilty of
the murder of this police officer, but they're found guilty
(18:42):
of selling drugs, and they were sentenced to life in
prison as an enhancement based on their guilty please in
state court. So as a result, they're in federal prison
for twenty something plus years, not because they're found guilty
of killing the officer, but because they played guilty to
save their life and their life was still taken from them.
It is one of the most insane stories ever. We
(19:04):
went to the last hour of Biden's presidency and he
finally signed a commutation to commute their sentence. They came
home and they've discharged off of their their their federal papers,
and they're released. And we just did an event with
them and we're working on the documentary to tell their
story because we're trying to change the law. You should
(19:24):
not be able to be found not guilty but still
sentenced to life based on allegations in other matters. It's
just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
How did y'all get the Biden administration to move because
they weren't. They weren't moving on nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Man, Charla Mane, when I tell you the squeakiest we'll
get the oil. Man, I was squeaky in the motherfucker
like I just I wouldn't stop. Man. I went around
and thankfully I got the support of some Virginia politicians
and legislators. Man, we're talking about Tim Kaine and a
bunch of folks who it took me nine years to
get them out, So it wasn't like it was no
(19:56):
short things. So they knew who I was. And I
just think I think it was a matter of me
being constant, me being persistent in God opening them doors.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
To be honest with you, absolutely, how do you determine
whether or not a potential client is actually innocent?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Sometimes you just got to go through it to find out, man.
And I ain't gonna lie to you. Look, I done been,
you know, thousands of dollars in hours and hours in
only for DNA results to come back, and it wasn't
telling me the truth. But let me say this, man,
that can't stop us from sending the elevator back down,
That can't keep us from extending our palms man, because
there are some innocent brothers and oversentssed sisters and brothers
(20:33):
who deserve our help. They need our help. And so
if I get one out of ten, I take that one.
I mean, that's how important it is to our culture, man,
that we make sure we don't have a bad experience
that makes us close to do it to everybody.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
My question for you, when I at my last job,
I used to do these stories whenever we would hear
about like Kim Kardashian or like you know, just any
of the attorneys she was working with getting involved rough
celebrities in general would speak out about people needing to
be put back in front of a judge because something
was done wrong in the legal system. There would be
the other side, the families of these people who thought, Okay,
(21:06):
I finally have peace, the case is solved, now we
can rest, and then this comes back up and it
kind of opens up a doorback for that right. How
do you as an attorney deal with that because you
want justice for the people who are wrong the justice system,
but then it's opening up a whole new world of
like chaos for this family connected to the person who
yes was harmed.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Here's what we do in our practice and what we
do at Life After Justice. So after we do their
full investigation, we presented to the victim's family as well,
because we deserve it. They we think they deserve to
have full closure, not the closure that they have been
forced to get. So that case of Terrence and Faran,
I took the complete and total investigation to the family
(21:49):
of the officer and at one point his daughter was like, look,
I have my attorney read this and I'm going to
provide you with the letter that says I want complete
and total transparency. I want to know what happened to
my father. That letter went a long way and helping,
and so I think that that is a way that
you can do it. I think it's deserving, right, because
you're opening up wounds and someone tragically lost their life
(22:12):
and situations like that. I think we have to be
respectful in mindful of everyone's feelings.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I want to talk about you know, the prison library, right.
I read when you started reading case law in the
prison library. Yeah, and helping other guys with their cases.
We always hear about that, Yeah, But and you did
that before you ever set foot in the law school classroom.
How did that prison law school shape you differently than
the traditional legal education.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think what it did for me is personally, it
helped me to better understand my clients and listen. Also,
I mean I think that as an attorney, I think
sometimes man, we can just be like, I know what
I'm doing and stuff like that. I think what it
did for me is it made me understand that just
as portant as important as it is when in the case,
(22:56):
and you also need to personalize yourself and learn from
your clients and stuff like that. And so I think
that I'm sitting across from guys who are you know,
rightfully convicted, wrongfully convicted and I'm helping them out. And
I think what it helped me do was master become
a master class of the client communications that is necessary
to be victorious in these tough cases.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You know what I think about, and this is a
lot of times I think about even people who are
locked up right that may actually have done what they
did and they need like some form of rehabilitation. Are
we ever going to figure out a system that like
actually rehabilitates people but also balances punishment, because I do
think there is a form of punishment needed, but when
(23:38):
it's your family member, you don't feel like that. But realistically,
like it's like the conversation we have around like defund
the police and what is actually supposed to mean what
people think We're saying, Yeah, you need police, but you
need them to like be human.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Why can't we just advance, Like we've advanced in technology, man,
And we advanced in technology from learning, right, we learned
from our mistakes. We got better. Used to have to
remember the phone with the core, man, My mama had
a fifty extension court. We used to walk around to
how we go to the basement at that phone. We've
advanced from that, so it's like, why can't we advance
in these things that affect our lives as much as
(24:12):
this criminal system does. And I'll tell you in my perspective.
So this is what I think is the problem. We
have an adversarial system. And I don't care if it's
a spitball contest or a pencil popping contest. You gonna
want to win. Right when you win this contest. I'll
give you an example of what I mean by that.
I did a study of broad in London because I
was trying to get through law school and the only
(24:32):
way you can get like a bunch of credits was
if you did this study of Broad. So I went
over there. I spent about four weeks in The assignment
was you need to go to their criminal system, see
what's there, and write a paper on what you think
will work in our system. So when I got there
and you sit up in the top, you know of
this thing called the Old Bailey or whatever it is, right,
and you look down at the barristers, who are both
(24:55):
men and women, and they're doing these arguments. And I
remember this lady man. She was kicking man. She was
kicking this dude butt up in there right with the
argument that she had, and it was it was involved
in the sense of the subject. It was involving actually
a rape case, right, And then I seen her come
back like three days later, and now she was actually
defending a guy who was accused of a rape with
(25:18):
the same passion and the same just vigorous, like this
is my client. What I walked away from with that
is you know what, That's how they're able to preserve
the sympathy and empathy that is missing out of our system.
We just want to win as defense attorneys. We just
want to win as prosecutors, and sometimes when that happens,
(25:38):
the thing that has lost is justice. I'm just going
to say.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
It's been like that for like this whole thing and
like breaking this whole system. When people had that conversation,
I'm like, it's been like this for so many years,
Like it's so far beyond us. Like sometimes I wonder,
why do we believe that it's going to just be
able to change and like you'll be able to change
even people's spirits to not want to just win the case.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Man, We got to get people closer to what is
really happening, you know, and that's going to make people
want to change. I think that, you know, until it,
until Trump was actually prosecuted by the system, don't you
think he had a problem with the system? You know
what I mean? No, until he was prosecuted by it,
then he had a problem with the system. Right, So
(26:22):
I think that I.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Still don't think he has a problem with how it
does certain people, meaning black and brown people.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, that's true too, but.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
He has because his privilege when he encountered the system
is a lot different and a lot of times you
got people who create do these like you know, certain
collar crimes and put in certain facilities. Yeah, so different
than what we know. Like when I have a family
member going to prison, it's a different experience. So even
their close experience doesn't change how they view things because
(26:50):
it's different for them.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It's my opinion, right, it is different for them. But
but I use something my grandfather used to use, which
is man. You know, look, sometimes people don't underst shit
to that shit on the bottom of their shoe, right,
And that's that's really one of them things where it's
like we need our leaders and I'm not gonna identify
and point out on names. We need our leaders man
to start to make the quick rapid change that we're
(27:15):
seeing right now with this current administration. Man, Like, legitly,
I don't.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I don't think they had a courage to do it now,
even if they get back in position with all the
tools at their disposal, I don't think they got the courage.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Well, I'll just say this, listen, don't do the job then,
you know what I mean, Like, if you don't have
the courage to do what is necessary, don't do the
job like we need y'all. Like, legitly, man, we need y'all.
Especially as an attorney in court every day, Man, I'm
seeing every day how slight changes could change the system. Like,
for example, why do public defenders have the budget of
a school teacher but the caseload of an entire administration.
(27:49):
It ain't fair, you know what I mean? Like, so
why can't we come in and just change that system alone?
Ninety percent of the public relies on public defense, Like
public defenders are different organizations like that. So it's like, man,
if you want to change this system, why can't we
change the budget to that? If you look at the
pot chart and the Department of Justice, we spend the
majority of that on what they call policing right, that's
(28:13):
locking people up, that's building new prisons. We got a
smart you can't even see that dot on what they
spend on reintegration and mental health care. So it's like,
why not just start there and you tell me if
it worked. I give you another example. We've seen the
war on drugs create mass incarceration. There was billions of
dollars that were spent on the war on drugs. Let
(28:34):
me see a war on childcare. Let me see a
war on the school systems in Hyrack where I'm from.
Let me see a war on putting them jobs back
that in those areas, replacing those liquor stores with those jobs.
And you talk to me in ten years and you
tell me if that ain't produced a better product.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Man, you said something earlier when you were talking about
like the prosecutors. Man, it made me think, like you
stent on both sides, right defended and attorney, what's one
thing you wish every prosecutor, judge and cop had to
experience or learn before they're allowed to hold that kind
of power over somebody's life.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Man, I really mishtaken experience a day in prison, in
a day with the family members at home. Who have
they loved ones in prison? Right? Because you're talking about
astronomical phone calls. Prisons ain't placed in the city. They
Appalachia somewhere, right. You know what I'm saying. You got
to drive a Clinton correctional You ever went to Clinton.
I got a couple of clients up there. Man, you
(29:32):
might as well block out your calendar for that day,
right and hope everything work out. So it's like that
that part of it, in my opinion, is again they
need to experience it, just to have that sympathy and empathy. Man.
Everything doesn't require a hammer, you understand what I'm saying.
(29:52):
And that's that just seems like what happens when you
get us in front of one of these systems. Man,
we all are like nails to them.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
For people who listening, man, who will never see the
inside of a courtroom beyond jury duty, what's one specific
action they can take, you know, right now to actually
move the needle on wrongful convictions and criminal justice reform
in their own city?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Pay attention man, like legitly man, if you're gonna be
there and you're gonna show and also listen. In general,
black folks show up the jury duty. Come on, y'all
like legitly, man, like we have to show up the
jury duty. Like you just don't know how many jury
pools in the Northern District of Illinois where I'm doing
a wrongful conviction case and I ain't got nothing but
one or two of us in there, and then we're
(30:33):
trying to get about that motherfucker like we need y'all. Man,
we listen, look, our turn up cannot outweigh our turnout
like legitly like that. So for me and my perspective,
I like to have a good time too, man, But man,
when it's time, when it's time to turn out, we
got to turn out. Please show up the jury duty, y'all. Y'all, y'all,
you just don't know. Man. If we get a jury
(30:55):
pool that is diverse, right, we now cantrol a lot
of the outcomes. Man, show up, show up, if you
can be there, be there, right. I'll be like, man, Charlamagne,
I'll be trying to get people are eye contact when
they be on the jury pool, like please please don't no,
it's go stand up and say you got a baby
like that. Come on, But that's that's what we need
because we present the case, but the jury makes a decision.
(31:18):
We need black and brown folk. And let me make
sure that I'm clarifying that not just black for black
and brown folk, because we ain't the minority if we
link up, you know what I'm saying. So that's what
we need. Show up the jury duty, that's it, and
even pay attention in that, take notes and stuff like that.
Be active in your participation because what your what your
vote counts for right there in that moment, it's critical
(31:39):
to the lives of a lot of my clients and
a lot of lawyer's clients.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
What gives you hope that meaningful justice reform is actually possible?
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Man?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
The cases, Man, I just look at the cases and
I and I also am just a person who wants
to be hopeful. I have to be right going through
what I went through. Man, I'm a prayerful person. I'm
a I'm a hopeful person. And I also get an
opportunity to look at the babies that we have that
are coming up right now. Man, and I'm I'm I'm afraid, y'all.
Ain't don't even lie, you know, when I'm looking to
(32:09):
talking to these mothers and fathers in these courtrooms. I
believe that it's desensitizing our babies to believe that the
criminal system is just a part of our lives. And
some kids never experience that only in the movie and
I and I. You know, I give you another example
of of of people ask me, man, what's what's the
toughest thing you've ever seen in prison? They expect me
to say a knife fight or something like that. Man,
(32:30):
I tell you the toughest thing that I ever seen
in this prison. So I'm playing ball on the first
couple of years that I get to to Green Bay Correctional.
Green Bay Correctional in Wisconsin was was is a. It's
a tough place, okay, And right now they are they
are stabbing each other up in there, and it's just
it doesn't make any sense what's going on with the violence.
So I'm passing time. I playing basketball, and you know,
(32:53):
everybody picking a squad, everybody got a nickname. And I'm hearing,
you know, these guys on the other team, and they're
like G Pops old man and G's son, right, I'm
just thinking that they all from the same block. You
know what I'm saying. I ain't no, I ain't no.
At all. It wasn't until I got in the visiting
room and I was visiting. My mama came up to
see me from Chicago, and I'm in the visiting room
(33:16):
and I didn't realize, Man, this was three generations. Man,
this was a grandfather, a father and his son.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
God.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
But what really messed me up was two women came
to see him with three kids, and it was a
little girl with him, and man, the little girl came
through the medalal detective and raised the armor to be
wanded because she was looking at her mama and grandmama
be wanded coming to the prison. And you don't wand
(33:45):
the kids anything like that? Man, like you, you know
you this is a baby. What's she doing at three
four years old? Knowing that she's supposed to stick her
arms up in the air. I said, man, look we
got addressed. We need to implement inside our schools of
psychology sections that address specifically people who encounter the system,
(34:09):
whether it be family members or whether it be people
who are there in order to make some real, real,
real change. That is the thing that I will never forget,
And that happened almost twenty seven years ago. But I
never forget it.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You talk about the importance of pro bono work.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Oh, look, I know.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
That's a part of the reason why even with your situation, right.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, an instance project got me out. It's important that
we donate to the right organizations that are doing the
work on the ground. And look, man, it's tough. You
understand what I'm saying. There's a lot of organizations, a
lot of people doing the same work, but we are system.
There are people. Once you get convicted, you on your own,
as a matter of fact, not people everybody. Once you
(34:51):
get convicted and that first appeal is over with, you're
on your own, right, So there are people who will
never have an opportunity to present their case of innocence,
not because they're not innocent, but because there's no money
around to do it. So we have to donate to
organizations like my organization, Life After Justice, people who are
doing the work and taking on cases pro bono to
be able to really get them the help that they need.
(35:14):
We have to do this right because there are there
are no The cavalry ain't coming.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
We the cavalry ourselves. That's sh listen man. Jared Adams
his book Redeeming Justice from Defending to defender my fight
for equity on both sides of a broken system is
available everywhere you buy books now, man, thank you man.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
How can we continue to support your work?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I know Life After Justice, but also the website is
is Jared Adams all dot com. Life after Justice dot
org is the website and y'all can support by sharing
the story. Man, like honestly, Charla Magne. Listen, if we're
gonna have a donkey of today, let's do a King
of Queen of the day. You know what I'm saying.
Straight up, Man, I love y'all. Thank y'all. I appreciate you, brother,
(35:59):
I really do, man, So I really do.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's Jared Adams is the breakfast Club.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Hold up every day a weak click your ass up
the breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You're finish what y'all done.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.