INTERVIEW: Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky's Lawyer, Talks Felony Assault Trial, A$AP Relli Perjury, Diddy, Michael Jackson + More

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake that ass up in the morning.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The Breakfast Club Morning Everybody is DJ n V, Jess Hilarious,
Charlamagne the guy. We are the Breakfast Club law Laosa
filling in for Jess. We got a special guest in
the building asaf Joe. He has represented on MJ Meek.
The Washington Commander is Donald Trump, Foxy Brown, Neo Swiss Beats,

(00:22):
and of course ASAP Rocky.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Ladies and gentlemen, we have Attorney Joe Tacopina. Did I
say last day right?

Speaker 1 (00:28):
It did perfect?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
How are you feeling this morning?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Tired but really good, really good. Yeah. So it's uh,
it was a five week war, but I've never been happier.
I mean those two people. When I say those two people,
Rocky Ree Rihanna just such great people. I've gotten to
know them over three years, really well at babysat fore
of the Hid's one throwing her super Bowl performance. Wow,
they're just good people. They're really for real good people.

(00:53):
You know, you just listened a bunch of people I've represented.
Rocky stands out. Really that's a terrific guy. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Really, you know it's interesting now, people always when we
see these cases, they always wonder how the client is
doing right, like how is they sat? But I would
think it's just more mentally and emotionally draining for you
as an attorney.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
You hit it man, I mean because look, obviously they
have the stress of the unknown, right, what's going to
happen when I'm on trial and whether it's Rocky or
some unknown client I represent. The days goes from you know,
nine in the morning in court till about four am.
You just work through. And it's when you have a

(01:34):
five week trial, you know, you're sleeping in an average
of ten hours a week. Wow, But you have to.
You have to. But it's fine because you go on adrenaline.
It's all adrenaline based because I can't go to sleep
thinking I'm leaving something out or missing one thing. And
then when I go to sleep, I sleep with one
I open and a pad next to my bed. But
it is it's you know, it's stressful. And then in

(01:56):
this case, in particular, where we had a prosecutor, it
was you know, off the rails. I mean it was
like one day every day was you know, a war
with him making you know, all sorts of problems and allegations,
and we got heated and it became very personal, so
you know, it was it was. It was a lot
for me, but of course, you know they suffer in

(02:17):
a different way because you know, one day we Rihanna
brought the babies to court and people thinking it was
a ploy, like some sort of maneuver to get the
joy to feel sympathy. Georgie's not feeling sympathy. They know
he has a wife and kids. It was more because
it was the last day of the trial and we
were summing up with doing summations, and the judge sid
we're going to write into Jory deliberations after that. At

(02:37):
least that was the plan. Didn't work out that way.
She worked the court because that could have been the
last time he'd seen his kids for a decade or more.

Speaker 5 (02:44):
Wow that day, Wow, think about that.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
That's why she brought them, and people that prosecutor made
a big deal of it in histormation, which I thought
was a fatal mistake quite frankly. But I do have to.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Ask, you know two things that you did that that
we loved up here. One, you know, we've seen criminal
attorneys a million one times, I've had Charlemagne had, but
with you, it seemed like we were talking about it
seems like you were fighting for your life too.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
What gives you the passion?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Because it I mean looking at you, you were like it
was like we all going to jail, you know, So
what gave you the passion? Because, like I said, we
see other criminal attorneys and for some you could tell
when it's a check a check, and some we can
tell like, no, you this is your life. So what
gives you the passion when you have these cases?

Speaker 1 (03:24):
I don't know any other way. Whether it's Rocky I
mean a Rod when I was representing, that's what you
said to the New York Times, he goes to treat
you like family. But I don't. I honestly, it's not
like I do it, you know for a tactic. It's
just I don't know any other way. When someone entrusts
you with their life and it's like their life. Okay,
maybe not the death penalty, but you know, their liberty
for twenty years, ten years whatever. I can't. I couldn't

(03:45):
look myself in the mirror if I didn't like, get
into that bunker with them and make it personal and
treat them like family, because then it you know, I'm
not mailing anything in that way. I have to That's
why I don't sleep thuring trials, because I have to
look and make sure I'm not missing something. I want
to take get every tackle advantage I could get, and
in every case we always wind up ropeid doping the opponent.

(04:06):
I mean, you know, we we blow stuff out on summation,
they're just like, oh, you know, like they weren't ready
for it. It happened in this case twelve times and
they were knocked on their heels. You know, we did
a five and a half hour summation I did from
that jury, and they were on the edge of their
seat for five and a half hours, which is you know,
you know you're connecting with them when that's happening. So

(04:26):
it's just it becomes personal. Mean, look, you just said
something v that was important because when I get to
the end of those summations and you know, these have
been put together over the course of my career. Johnny
Cochran was a mentor to me when he after the
OJ case, he came to New York. You know, we
opened up the firm here. He plucked me out out
of obscurity and basically took me under his wing for

(04:47):
three years, and Johnny and I worked together, you know,
we crafted summations, stuff like that, and I still use
some for material and I did it at the end
of this case. But one thing I do is when
I go to thank you know, let the dury know
that an honor for me to represent this individual, and
I thank the family. I turned around to look at
Rocky and then I saw Rihanna. I looked at her.
She's crying. Wow, she's a strong woman. Rina. I saw

(05:10):
her crying. It hit me like a ton of bricks.
I turned around, and you know, I had a I
couldn't speak for a second, and then my eyes welled
up and the jury is looking at me, and then
two of them started crying. When I see jewis crying
when I'm speaking to them during my stummation, I feel
pretty good. They weren't good. You know, you got it.
So that's why it's it's that's a good question. It's

(05:31):
it's you know, it's part of how I do it.
But it's not like a ploy, it's not a tactic.
It's how I really feel.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
And what gave you the confidence that when they offered
you that deal, you said f that because the world
was like four, you don't only have to do six
months and three months in community service a.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
Black man in America. First thing I said, I was like, man,
I take the I.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Was I'm thinking, I'm thinking, La, they're gonna let him
go in a day anyway, because the jails are overpopulated.
So what gave you the confidence and be like, I
mean obviously you guys won, but you weren't scanned, and
be like, well, maybe we should just take this deal.

Speaker 5 (06:05):
And whose idea was it to not take the deal?

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, it was Rocky and I had a one minute conversation,
literally one minute. Rock here's offer. I don't want to
do it too. What do you think, welcome, let's go?

Speaker 6 (06:16):
Oh, I mean not that?

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Can I say that?

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Here? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (06:18):
So you didn't even think about it, like you we
thought about for a second and then but here it
required him to plead guilty of something I didn't do. Right,
required him to say, I'm guilty of a you know,
assault with a semi to mac weapon seven years suspended sentence, right,
which means he's under the thumb for seven years five
years probation. So if he crossed against the red they

(06:39):
could take him back. Yeah, it's six months, which means
three months. But it was a career ender for him.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
Really, he'll lose deals and stuff.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Gucci was gone. I mean I've been dealing with Gucci
for two years on its Gucci Puma, you know, all
his shows. He couldn't travel out of the country with
felting convictions. It was a life changer for him. And
more importantly, he maintained his instance from the minute I
met him three years ago. Maintained his instance. So it
was it was a you know, it was really a
quick decision. Yeah, people like this guy has onions and

(07:07):
doing that kind of stuff, right, how do you do that?
But I also felt very confident I knew were gonna
win that.

Speaker 7 (07:11):
At what point do you get so I know that
there's like discovery, so you get to see like what
the other side has, so that helps you like craft
your defense and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 (07:18):
But at what point did.

Speaker 7 (07:20):
You guys have everything? Like you knew everything upfront or
where things added as things were going, We're.

Speaker 6 (07:25):
Like, if you ever got nervous.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Like hmmm, they're trying to oh what about this? We
forgot about this show about.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Picked the jury? You know, I mean they came with
a ballistics report that had been done a year and
a half ago, and they said, oh, we just found
this now we we missed it. So I'm like, you're
kidding me, right, and like that kind of those games
happened throughout the trial, but you know whatever, I'm used
to that kind of stuff and didn't face Look, I
knew we had a defense. My defense was to eviscerate

(07:51):
this asaparately, this this absolute pathological liar, and I eviscerate
him in a way that you know, I told this
jewiss that you guys had a firm room seat the
history because you just witnessed the worst witness in the
history of American jurisprudence. Jesus. I mean, he imploded like
and by the way, you know, I'm considered, you know,
top cross examiner anyone could you know you could cross

(08:14):
examine him. I mean, really it was that the guy
was was his home worst enemy.

Speaker 8 (08:19):
Have you ever met a man that couldn't rat right?
He couldn't even rat rat right. He cursed in a
courtroom or a judge of jury. He cursed to the jury.
He told the jury, Yeah, I lied because I didn't
want to answer this guy's question.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
He's annoying me.

Speaker 5 (08:33):
He said, you're annoying.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, I don't mean to annoy you just
want you thirty million dollars and you want to just leave.
You don't want to answer questions like he shoot for
thirty million dollars with knuckle scrapes. This guy's a clown
and and he's a liar. He's a midliar. He's admitted perjurer.
He lied at least to this story twenty times and
was caught coming in perjury. I caught him in multiple
At one point toward listenation, I said, oh, this is

(08:55):
the next one's my favorite. This is a perjury mini
series because he lied. It was it was like this
series of lives about whether he shot a gun before
November sixth, twenty twenty one, the day of the incident.
And he said no, no, never I go. You sure never?
He goes, yeah, never, I go. What about a shooting rage?
Hot about the shooting edge? You sure it goes? Absolutely not?

Speaker 5 (09:14):
Ago video?

Speaker 1 (09:17):
I really gave him a shot igo, Absolutely, he goes,
You heard me like an a large It absolutely not? Okay?
Think video him and shooting at nine milimeters shell cases? Pop?

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Was that on his Instagram.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, pulled it from I got it from his phone.
But I guess the prosecutors didn't want to go through
his phone like we did. See when I get discovery,
there is nothing I won't look at it.

Speaker 6 (09:35):
Would they not go through their clients phone?

Speaker 1 (09:38):
He took a video of himself from twenty twenty one,
twenty twenty one. I'm sorry, and I guess when he
turned over the phone, we got the phone also, as
we're entitled to. We did it dump. I mean I
brought to an agency that you know, I t company
that doesn't dump. And I looked at every phone call,
every message, and every picture and every video, and I

(09:59):
saw these There was like whoo, I got the metadata.
October nineteen, twenty twenty one. Okay, right before the incident,
he's shooting a nine millimeter with shellcasing, popping back over
his shoulder. Because don't get our theory was he placed
those shellcasings, and he lied about it, and then he
lied about the shellcase. Then he lied about where it was.

(10:20):
I said, well, where was that shooting range? He said,
we know, New Jersey somewhere not in California though, just
not in California. And the point of that was he
supposedly traveled back to New York. I started COBE nineteen.
It came back right before the November sixth incident for
complex not or something, and he was there, and apparently

(10:41):
the point of the prosecutor was like, well, he couldn't
fly back with shellcasings in his back. So even if
he shot, you know, in a shooting range in cober
A two weeks before the incident, he couldn't flown with
shellcasings and the commercial plane. We found out that the
shooting range was in Los Angeles, two blocks from the courthouse. Wow.
So I'm like, where was the shooting range and he's like, no,

(11:02):
I don't know, and not in Los Angeles, non California.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
I'm like, really, oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Over the weekend we compared the video to I went
to have a shooting range of Los Angeles, saw the
same thing. I was like, got him. And then we
on Monday came back. He's like, oh, I checked my Instagram.
Yeah it was in Los Angeles. I forgot. I go, oh,
you checked your Instagram?

Speaker 9 (11:19):
Huh.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
Had nothing to do with the post that someone posted
one minute before he called the district turns offs to
say you know, because someone had outed him after I
went there and showed that it was the same shooting
range in Los Angeles. So he lied about shooting, He
lied about shooting nine millimeter, he lied about where he
shot the nine millimeter, and so it was just like
this series of lies. And then he lied about how

(11:41):
he found it out. He pretended he went back to
his phone just because he wanted to make sure he
did say things incorrect, and he found that and he
called the DA. It happed to be about one and
a half minute after he was tagged on a post
showing his video and the shooting engine. It was just anyway.
That's one example of about thirty where so I finally
said to the jury at the end of this, if

(12:01):
you can't trust this guy with a matter of importance
in your own life or a life of a love
on which you can never do and they only create
with that, you can't trust them with the matter of
importance in his life being a rocket. You just can't.
And if you take them out of the equation, there's
no proof that there was a shooting. There is none
that could be or it could be not, And that's
not proof. You unreasonable doubt and that was it. It

(12:21):
was a three hour.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
Deliberation and the truth that he you said, you said
that you thought that he planted the showcases, the true
of the police searched the area, didn't find those show cases,
and all of a sudden he.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Came with stupid story. So he's claiming Rocky shot too,
pops them, and the Rockety did shoot too from a
prop gun, the start pest and the whole story as
to why he had that, But if he shot two
shots from a real nine millimeter ten minutes, the seven
cops came within ten minutes with search lights. Those flashlights,
they have bodycam. Thank god, they searched the exact spot

(12:53):
where the sincident happened. Seven cops twenty minutes, that's one
hundred and forty minutes of manpower, and they're looking. They
find nothing, nothing, no evidence of a shooting, no broken
there's a parking lot right next to it, no cars
that were doing nothing. He claims it comes back now
and forty five minutes later, goes to the exact same
spot the cops were searching, bends down and finds the
two shell cases.

Speaker 7 (13:15):
I mean, so what happens now? Because I know you
mentioned when you walked out the court, like you want
them to pursue him for perjury charges.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
I want them to. They should. I mean the District
Attorney's office was and should be embarrassed by this guy.
I mean, he absolutely played them like a fiddle. We
had a tape which he first, by the way, a
tape of him and one of a mutual friend of
Rocky Unrellies. And he said that there was a there
was a recording, and he's and when he heard the

(13:45):
beginning of the recording he realized what that was. He
was like, oh, that's fake. Get that away from It's fake.
It's not my voice. It's it's it's Ai. It's like,
that's fake, it's Ai. So then I had to call
the poor guy who made the recording in Wally. Wally say, yeah,
that's from Paris. It was in Paris's so that's my voice,
that's really's voice. He said this stuff. I know nothing
about this case, but yes, I'm here authenticated tape. And

(14:07):
on the tape, what really is saying is if he
gives me thirty million, I'll disappear to an island and
they'll never find me. The DA can never find me,
and they can't prosecute their case. You know. It's like,
you know, and this is his example, not mine. It's
like you know, when you when you smack your bitch
and she files charged against you, if she doesn't show up,

(14:28):
the case is way weaker than That's what. Yeah, so
that's his that's like where his mind goes to. But
his thought was I'm gonna disappear to an island. The
day will never find me. So I stood behind the
two disc attorneys. I was like, so they'll never find
him like this, and they're just saying they're like sleeking
down in their chairs. I'm like, he tried to sell

(14:49):
his criminal case for thirty million dollars. That's called extortion, Okay,
so he should be prosecuted for extortion. He admitted perjury.
He was caught other times committing perjury when he did
admit it. I mean, this guy's a one man crime
spree on the witness stand alone who.

Speaker 5 (15:05):
Follow charges against him.

Speaker 7 (15:06):
You to say, because you told me that, you guys
have begin putting together transcripts and stuff like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Put to the transcripts we're going to present. You know,
we have this video fortunate instingcents on TV. So we
also have video. We're going to bring this to the
district Attorney's office. I'm sure they'll looking for a minute
and a half and disregarded. You know, they went after
Rocky like you know he was I don't know, Dillinger,
Pablo Escobar. I mean, they got a guy who's who's
not only admitted to crimes on the stand, they got

(15:32):
caught red handed committing extortion, light about it and tried
to sell the case. Now that is to me a
perversion of justice. And if you're the district attorney and
you have somebody trying to sell your criminal case for
thirty million dollars, I'd be mad as hell. I mean
I used to be a prosecutor. I would go after
him with everything I had. But you know, I don't
predict that will.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
But what about the prosecutor because in this case, right
you look at at asap the prosecutor obviously, well yeah,
that's that's actually what is monster's water. The prosecutor, I
guess didn't do their homework right out a little bit. Right,
So now I'm paying. I have to pay for my attorney.
I have to pay for everything that they did for me,

(16:12):
and they have no consequence at all.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
You can't sue the district attorney. Nothing is just you
just got to eat that.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean you do. It's they have sort of
this governmental community when they bring charges. As soon as
have a good faith basis to bring them, you really can't.
The good faith basis is. They have a video of
Rocky holding one appears to be gone, and they have
another video where, well, it's grainy, you do here in
nest cret cam to Pops Pop Pop so, and he

(16:39):
had a witness swearing despite the fact that he's he's
his tongue is a stranger to the truth. He did swear,
and so that's enough to isolate them from from civil damages.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
I don't understand the prop gun thing though. I was like,
why would he be having a prop gun for safety?

Speaker 5 (16:55):
Like that's just.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, it's it's actually what happened. But here's why, Rocky.
This is twenty twenty one, right, so he was still
you know, he had n't He was successful, but he
wasn't like rolling in crazy though, So he was successful.
He didn't use full time security twenty four to seven.
He does now after this, he does since that day.

(17:17):
What happened was he did DMV video in July twenty
one that actually came out the year later with Rihanna,
and in that video there was tons of prop guns
and that there were a lot of videos that you
have those things right. And so he had just recently
gotten slashed in the face in a bar. He was jumped.

(17:38):
He has a slash scarface right now. He has that
He had a stalker current at that time. In July
of twenty twenty one, he had a stalker active. Stalker
actually broke to his house. He had home invasions. He
was licensed to posess guns in the home, but not
to carry his security detail. And his manager Lou Levin
asap Blu, who was just a great guy in great witness,

(17:58):
said you have to if you're not going to use
this full time. You can't carry a gun, but you
should least carry a prop We can make it look
like a real gun, just to deter people in case
someone's coming up to you rolling up and you can
take it out. Rocky said, sure. Find So they took
this little block which was really small. He put it
in your pocketbook. Was a rock prop gun. From the video,

(18:20):
you can see it's in the video. They put an
extended magazine on it, a little bell clip to make
it look more intimidating. So that's what Rocky carried when
he didn't have security, And we had two witnesses testify that,
and you know, his inn circle knew that. So he
used it because he couldn't carry a real gun. First
of all, too, he didn't want to carry a real
gun because God forbid he has to use it. Then

(18:41):
you got to really answer some stuff. But so that's
why he carried it. You know, I know people like
that sounds like BS prop gun proper. But what sounds
like more BS is that he had a real gun
fired off two nine millimeters shots. No shell case were
found by the police, No damage was done anywhere in
one of the shots in that grainy video, and ast
Bills and this rally were an inch away from like

(19:03):
you and I, charl they aren't even as close as
they were, and he shoots someone's dying, someone's dying. No
one got hit. I mean, it's it was obvious that
that was not a real gun. Otherwise you would have
seen things that you would receive. As a matter of fact,
the cops on the body camp said, doesn't affect there's
any evidence of a shooting here. You know, it was

(19:23):
inches away from where the computers are, there, where the
screens are. There was a parking lot with cars. It
was a pay for parking lot. You know, you shoot
a gun, a window is going to break, Something's gonna happen.
There was nothing. They searched every car, So I think
there's while I get While the prop gun thing is
hard for some people to grasp, there's certainly way less
evidence that it was real gun than a prop gun.

(19:46):
And that's the bottom lie.

Speaker 7 (19:47):
What about this civil suit that Wally file whenever I'm
not I'm sorry, I rally filed when everything first started moving.
It was it's a defamation suit against Rock.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
No, it's assault Rocky, defamation shooting against you.

Speaker 7 (19:59):
Yes, she had two of them. So do you guys,
are you now want to submit to like file for dismissal.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Look, you know that case is running its course. I'm
dealing with it on my own, with Rocky Rock as
his sole case. I mean, that thing is on life
support now. Obviously, I can't imagine this guy ever want
to get back on a witness stand again. You know,
he he can't withstand it. I mean, he was again
a horrible witness. Even you know there are people inside

(20:24):
that courtroom, you know who are there, who are part
of this process, who said, how do they proceed with
this guy? And they did? You know, but we had
a prosecutor who was hel bent on winning, not doing justice,
help bent on winning. And when you have that, it's
a dangerous thing because you know they have the weight
of law enforcement behind them, and and you know, prosecute's

(20:48):
job and I used to be one, it's not solely
to just secure a conviction, just to make sure you're
doing right. And when a witness continually lies on a
witness stand and purchase himself and you know that they are,
you know sometimes okay, to take a step back and reevaluate.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
In your opinion, is because he was he's a celebrity
that that prosecutor probably thought this was his case.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
This was the one that's gonnaut him on the map.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Look if this would look This prosecutor has quite a history.
Let's put it that way. He was the Durst prosecutor. Okay,
so he was then sideline a bench for some miscandas
that apparently had committed. And we're going to the Drst case.
I don't need to get into it now. Yep. It
was just like coming back party, like this was his
first big trial since Thirst after the Old Day put

(21:27):
him to some administrative part right, so he took this
over like this was his chance to come back, high
profile case on TV. He wanted to you know, this
was his coming back party, and you know he got schooled.
He got schooled and got put back in his little
corner because he was and he was nasty. I gotta
be honest with you. I don't like saying that I've
again one hundred and twenty jury trials I've had, and

(21:48):
I've gone ahead toward with opponents, with adversaries who have
been hard charged like me. I could respect that. We
don't have to like each other, but we could respect
each other and not make it personal. This guy was
off the rails. But then I spoke to other lawyers.
David Chesnoff who tried I was a great lawyer from
Las Vegas who tried the Dirst case. He said he
almost went the blows with him, which you know, we
came close a few times too.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
I got right in my face, Brooklyn came out that
Brooklyn was out.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
It doesn't ever go away. But when this guy got
into my face, I looked him. I said, you're gonna
get hurt. You're making a mistake. I need to back
up man real quick. And and you.

Speaker 5 (22:22):
Know, whatever did you did you have that coat before
after the case?

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I had this before freezing outside? Okay barely?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
She asked about before and that's what?

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah? Yeah, in center barber.

Speaker 5 (22:38):
Wow, how was that?

Speaker 1 (22:40):
That was crazy too? That was really crazy. Mesro was
the lead lawyer in that case when I was younger,
but it was it was a nutty case. And that
was you know, that was another sort of travesty of justice.
I mean, whatever issues Michael had, that was not the
right case to bring against him. He was inno, he
was found not guilty, and uh, you know I worked
with his manager Francasio, and then when resolved Frank's case,

(23:03):
they asked me to stay and work with Michael, and
I did. In that case was yeah, I mean, it
was sad because and he was ready under the you know,
influence of doctor Murray at that point, and it was
you know, you can see there was something missing.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
But I want to know what you learn from these cases,
right because to me, I always say, it's got to
be extremely difficult to be in this game nowadays with
social media, because don't they tell jurors, hey, you're not
supposed to watch television, you're not supposed to turn But
how do you how do you not be on YouTube?
How do you not be on your phone? How do
you not see all of these things?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
You have to be on YouTube? I mean I opened
my phone and there was the thing of our case,
like you know, right there, Like on social media, comes
at you. You don't have to go look for it
comes at you. So I don't really know how that
works anymore. You know, you have to trust that the
jurors going to listen to the court's instructions, which are
do not read about this case. If you see something,
don't look at it, go past it. But human beings

(23:56):
are human beings, right, I mean, the more you tell
them not, the more they're gonna be what's out there,
I'm going to look at it. So I don't believe
that they are completely insulated from all the press and
stuff like that. I think at the end of the day, though,
they do make those decisions on what they see it.
I deal with that my summation by saying, look, you know,

(24:20):
people who come in out of the courtroom and sit
for ten minutes of testimony or the most important day
or the summations. They don't know this case. You're the
only ones who've sat here for four weeks, for every
minute of every of the testimony, and you're the only
ones who know all the facts. So whatever anyone else
is saying, I think it's irrelevant. What matters is what

(24:41):
you think you are. The judges are the facts in
this case. You and you know I empower that jury
and we did hear. What's crazy about this case though,
is this this We're in downtown LA right in the
court same floor as the OJ trial. We're the court
across from it, right because this role of the high
profile cases go there on the ninth floor the OJ trial.

(25:01):
And again, very close friends with Johnny it was very
He was my mentor. Bob Sappier was a dear friend
of mine. They had eight black jewis Counttown Los Angeles, right, fine,
fair we in our juris lection rocket case. I didn't
get to say hello to a black joer. Wow, It's
not like we didn't pick one. We didn't even get
to say hello. Out of one hundred and six jurors

(25:24):
that were brought in for the panel. Four were African
America four and the first one was like number seventy,
so I couldn't get to them unless like the first
thirty jurors decided they weren't showing up or something.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
It was.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
It was troubling to me, and Reverend Sharpton came out hard.
He called me, he's like, Joe, am I reading this right?
Oh yeah, Rev, you are. And you know, Reverend Sharpton
came out put out a really harsh statement just to
make sure that he got a fair trial. And so, look,
I didn't and I'm not. I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, Okay,
I thought I was a light skinned black had grown up,
so I didn't even know the difference. And I'd never

(25:58):
judge people by the cold, only by the content of
the character, right, And so for me, it doesn't really
matter if I see good people. If I wanted smart
and good people here, and I believe I got them,
obviously we got them so so, but I believe I
had them. So it wasn't so much we didn't have
a black person. We need a black person. But I
did tell this jury at the end at some point
during that summation, I said that you represent the conscious

(26:21):
of this community. You decide what's right and what's wrong,
because you're going to send the message out. But you
represent the entire community. And when I say the entire community,
I mean the community. You're all from different parts of
Los Angeles, right, And also you represent Compton and Englewood.
I just said that to make sure, and and Rocky
told me he was really moved by that because obviously

(26:41):
that's a large African American population, Compton Englewood. And I
said that, just remind the jury you're representing his peers. Also,
you're supposed to have a jury of peers. It was like,
you know, none representing. But but we were good. We
were good because I just got jurwis who I mean?
I had a rocket scientist on this jury. You understand,

(27:03):
I didn't even know that was a real thing. I thought,
you say, I'm like, yo, you're no rocket scientist. I
thought it was just a phrase. This woman was a
rocket scientist. She was a scientist who built rockets, space ships.
Like I said, you're really a rocket scientist. I was like,
I want you just like so we had a rocket
scientist on the show. We had a smart jury.

Speaker 6 (27:22):
We had a gun there was someone who worked in weapons.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, we had a woman who was a pistol and truck.

Speaker 7 (27:27):
We thought that you weren't gonna want her on that case.
A lot of people thought one thought that, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Love when people people think they know more than the Twitter.

Speaker 6 (27:34):
The Twitter, the twitter jury.

Speaker 7 (27:36):
We were breaking it down and we were like, there's
no way that he's gonna want her on that case.
But it's telling if he does or he doesn't want
And when you welcomed her, I was like, Oh, he's
so smart.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
I wanted her because the ballistics evidence actually worked in
our favor in this case. One two that was a
cruel defense.

Speaker 6 (27:51):
Jurney, Oh, I know.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I also thought she would understand. And then she said
one other thing during jury selection. You know I talked
about right now. Rockey's intention was always testify, always, but
we decided we had crippled their case so badly at
the end that I didn't want to shift the focus
of for Ralli's glorious train wreck to Rocky testimony, and
we decided it wasn't worth him testify because he already

(28:14):
had the witnesses. He was just going to corroborate or
reaffirm what witnesses already testify too. And then that prosecutor
be yelling at him for four days. You know, that's
which I put on a witness for ten minutes, said
he cross examiner for three and a half hours, screaming
at him, which didn't go for well, I don't think,
but the jury. But putting that aside, I didn't want
to get away from Rally's testimony. I didn't want there

(28:35):
to be too much time between the end the summations
and his testimony. So we we didn't call Rocky, but
we planned on it. But still, I asked the jurwors.
I asked the Drewors. I said, do any of you
have a problem if defend doesn't testify because you know
the judge going to instruct you can't consider that. And
that Durre, the pistol instructor, whose father was a criminal defensder,
and he looked at me and said, I wouldn't testify
as ours if I were a criminal defendant. There's no
way I would testify. And I just remember that, thinking, Okay,

(28:58):
she gets it, she'd understand, she understands why that's important
because most people say, now, why wouldn't he testify if
I want to testify. It's not that simple.

Speaker 4 (29:06):
It's just not that celebrity help or her, And it's
kind of a little layered question. But like you know,
I asked the celebrity helper hurt in cases like this
because I know when you're a juror, they'll ask you
questions about Rocky.

Speaker 5 (29:18):
But did they ask the jurors about Rihanna?

Speaker 7 (29:21):
A lot?

Speaker 6 (29:21):
They did.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
Okay, I get stolen, might get stolen.

Speaker 6 (29:32):
Except Joe got people out here. Don't even.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
You know. They were obsessed with I loved it. I mean,
they were just so obsessed with Rihanna. I didn't make
a part of this case. She wasn't part of the case.
The duid knows who Rihanna is. They know who she
is compared to you know, in Religious Rocky. They saw
her there every day, So I didn't need to inject
her into the case to make it like we were
playing on her celebrity status. Quite finally, think jurors, we're

(29:57):
gonna acquit him because oh here's Rihanna, So let's be
damn with the evidence. Let's just acquit him. But they
were so obsessed with focusing on Rihanna. Oh, Rihanna. They
don't you know, you have to treat everyone equally. It
was because Rihanna's here. I was like, keep going, man,
just keep going, keep reminding them that Rihanna's here, and
talk about her. Because I did that, it would look
like I was I was pandering. I don't think that

(30:20):
mattered at all. I honestly don't. I mean, I think
they looked at the evidence. I mean, look, if if
Relly turned out to be a great witness and I
couldn't destroy him like I did, I don't think. I
don't think the jury would care that Rihanna was.

Speaker 7 (30:33):
Sitting there the first couple of days though, of the
of it, she wasn't there. But then she came that Wednesday.
I believe it was that Wednesday, right, Why did Why
wasn't she there those first couple of days.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
I was the kids were in New York with her
because the la fires are still going okay, and they're
very protective and she's a mother, hen you know, she's
really protecting those boys, and you know, the air quality
was really bad that first week of that trial, and
my eyes were like we woke out of court. I
was staying downtown l a from so I had a
two block walk to my hotel, and it was it

(31:04):
was pretty bad. I mean the the you felt something,
you smelled something, so I think it was an air
quality issue. And she kept the boys away, and she
doesn't go anywhere with those kids, so she wasn't gonna
leave them in New York and come here. So but
she you know, we knew this was gonna be a
long trial, so she made it.

Speaker 7 (31:20):
What her name in the next baby? Oh, sorry, the
name of the next baby after except Joe, except Joe.
So that means we're not gonna get a Rihanna album
because they about to have to make a baby.

Speaker 6 (31:30):
So it's all your song.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Sorry, sorry, But Rocky's album's coming out soon, and that
thing is fire. I mean I heard some songs on that.
I mean, I'm you know, he does something. He's a
little different, like he's not you know, but this next
album is gonna be different than anything I've ever heard
anyway around. You're gonna you're gonna be If I'm not
the best man, there's a problem. I was gonna.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
I was gonna ask, you know, when you take a case,
do you have to believe.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
The person to believe in the person.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Okay, break that down.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
So look, I don't prejudge anyone. I'm not the judge
during executioner. Right, I've represented people who have probably done
what they've been accused of doing, but doesn't mean they're
bad people and don't deserve representation. You know, if we
all had our worst ten minutes of our lives captured
on video or something like that, I don't think we'd
all be happy. Right. If I love a person or

(32:27):
I think they're really good people and they just made
a mistake, I could deal with that. I'm not going
to subborn perjury. I'm not going to make up a story,
but I'll help them get through it, and that sometimes
that means just mitigating the damage. Right. Sometimes, you know,
with Meek's case, for example, right meet, you know, when
the crime, he led guilty to it, but this judge

(32:47):
in Philly was obsessed with him and was had him
under probation for over ten years. No one ever ever
he was a kid, he was a teenager when his
crime is committee. Ten years later, he's still in the probation.
If he came to court White sox boom two more,
yesprobation she wanted him under his thumb. She wanted him
to make a record about her. It's like she was.
It was an issue going on there. So it wasn't

(33:10):
like we were saying Meek was innocent, innocent, but he
served his his his you know, his sentence, and he
was being abused by the system, and the district Courney
came around and agreed with us, and eventually I got
that dismissed. We resolved the case, and you know that
judge was was relocated to a civil park.

Speaker 7 (33:29):
He was Did you did you know that make me
a movement was going to be as big as it
was when that because it got it grew so insanely.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
That was crazy. No, because what I first first, honestly,
you know, I didn't realize how big that was and
how I loved that guy was, especially in Philly. I mean,
he's like Rocky in Philly, right, And so I culture
Reverend hal who I'm very close with, and and the
Reverend I said, can you come to Philly with me
and to visit him in jail and maybe you make

(33:59):
us stand here, this judge is really giving them once over,
and you know, I did I need you to help
on this one, and Reverend said to me, one thing,
is he a good guy? Joe? Am I getting embarrassors?
See you good guys? No, no, Reverend, you will not
get embarrassed here. It's worth it. He's a good guy.
More important, he's getting he's getting run over by the system.
And he has the wherewithal, He has a voice. You know.
That means ninety people in that system in Philly don't

(34:23):
have that voice, don't have the wherewithal. And again trampled on.
And it's true. They reformed, you know, that whole probation
system in Philadelphia because of Meek in our case put
a spotlight on it, you know, So it was it was.
It was an important case for a lot of reasons.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
How did you get your reputation?

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Like how did you become the person that people like
Donald Trump and Daniel Snyder and Michael Jackson?

Speaker 5 (34:50):
How do you become that guy?

Speaker 1 (34:51):
You know? Results at the end of the day, it's results, right,
I mean you had.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
To have a first big case that that put your name.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
As a prosecutor homicide in Brooklyn, you know, and I
did well there, but then I left and you know
I was doing well. My first case was a police
corruption case and called the Morgue Boys. Those guys were cops,
were alleged to have been robbing drug dealers in East
New York and then splitting them up in the and
then Morgue Factory.

Speaker 6 (35:20):
And that was why, just give me power, like the
fifty go ahead.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
So anyway, that was my first on the front page
New York Times. So I'm like a month out of
the DA's office. I have nationally important case, you know,
very important case. And I got my guy off, I
got acquittal, and from there I went on some talk
shows to talk about it, and then I started with
that no, that's later morg Boys. This was like, you know,

(35:46):
Michael Dowd was the main witness the Model Commission. That
was like that's what we're talking about, like ninety early nineties.
And then then you know, just sort of steamrolled from
there a little bit. I started getting case at the case.
I started representing a lot of cops first, and then
rappers like Raquen came to me on a little thing. Foxy. Right,

(36:08):
Foxy put out a great post yesterday or something like that,
a picture of us. I looked like I was twelve
years old in that picture. But Foxy was awesome. My god,
who's I had all these like old school gangster rappers, right,
sticky fingers, form onyx, you know, and and stuff like that.
And so I started getting to that world a little bit,

(36:29):
just you know, and then working hard. And then you know,
I had some good case. I had some good wins.
People think I was gonna win these cases. And I
started winning cases. And then Johnny came Cochrane, fresho off
the heels of OJ right, so, and he looked me up.
Someone said something about me, and he looked me up.
He said I heard a lot of good things about you.
I got a call from him and I'm like, okay, yeah,
Johnny cockran sure. I didn't believe I didn't know him,

(36:52):
and he said, could you meet me at my office.
I was like, okay, I'm gon shit you off. So
again I thought this was like a candy camera prankers.
I went there and it was him, and he just like,
I love your style, I love what you do. I've
seen work, I've read your transcripts. You're gonna be a star,
You're gonna be me. And I was like, really you
think that? And I mean I was confident in myself.

(37:13):
I you know, I had some good wins early on,
and he just like just yes, let's let's let's hang
together and let's do some things together. I'm like, okay.
I was like, oh my god, you know, Johnny cochrane
and and it helped, it was it was a great
thing for me. And I'm still young, Lauren. You know,
He's then sent me some work and then just happens.
You know, then once you win a big case and

(37:34):
you know you're in the game, then all of a
sudden just started just started that way. I got Foxy,
you know, off of a few things. She had a
little soul phone problem, kept slipping at of her hands,
hitting people.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
And do you have a fear any retaliation because they
know they described they described you as the most hated
a lawyer in New York City because you take on
a lot of controversial cases.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
That was I love that that they described it. It
was one anonymous prosecutors asked, I kicked and I know
the case. That was a quote to the New York Post,
of course, the near Post and makes most hey, lor
One person said that I'm sure a lot of people
hate No, No, I don't give a crap. A lot
of people hate me. I know, I could look myself
in the mirror. I'm a hard charger. I don't look
to make friends when I go into a courtroom. I

(38:16):
look to defend the person I'm standing that stuff, and
if it means I ruffle a few feathers, so be it.
I really don't care. But you know, it's that controversial cases.
Anyone who's charged with bad things, you know, needs a
criminal defense start. I don't know if that makes it controversial,
but yes, they're talking about the rape cops rape Cops case.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
Yeah, that was that was the King of Marino case.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, that was Marino, which I wanted no one to
the could win because he was on a wire. She
was wired and he acknowledged what they claim he did.

Speaker 5 (38:46):
And how do you want something like that?

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, I said, basically, he told her what she wanted
to hear, calm her down. And I used science in
that case. That case was a science case. That it
was scientifically that was against this one with the rape
and I believed it, by the way, just so you know,
and and you know, we put on we put on
scientific evidence and I had him testify and he describes

(39:11):
his actions, the content that it wasn't all right. He
did make misconflict like he you know, he was a
recovering alcoholic. She was blackout drunk and he was trying
to help her, and so he went back and to
the apartment multiple times at night. But the jury believed him.
And that jury was also another I picked smart juries
when I need people to understand intricate defenses. I had five.

(39:33):
I believe who's on that jury that was which people like,
you're crazy. They most people think defense attorneys want the
dumbest stories you could find. I don't. I want people
to understand what the burdens are. The proof be unreasonable doubt.
Thing is you know you don't. We don't walk around
going hey, I don't know, did you prove that beyond
reasonable doubt? To me? You don't do that in right life.
But that's the highest standard of law allows. I mean,

(39:54):
you know, in a civil case, mere preponderance, I could
bankrupt you, take your money, take your house on a
fit fifty one forty nine percent verdict. That's preponderance, right, ponnously.
That's criminal case. That doesn't mean anything. I could take
your child away on clear and convincing evidence, right, that's
the standard higher than ponderance. I could literally a parent
could lose cost of a child on clear and convincing evidence.

(40:17):
That is not enough to convince someone in this country.
You have to go to the highest standard law permits,
which is proofly on a reasonable doubt. And when I
sort of make sure the Drew understands how high that is.
It's not he probably committed the crime. It's not I
think he committed the crime. It's not it's very likely
he committed the crime. It's not I'm almost certain he
committed the crime. It's I have no reason to doubt
he committed the crime. That's a real high standard. And

(40:38):
I have to make sure that Juri understands that, and
then I list the reasons to doubt, so you know
it's I take on these cases that I believe in.
I've turned down a lot of cases, a lot of
cases that could be lucrative or even very high profile.
Harvey Weinstein was one. He'd try to hire me, and
I wouldn't.

Speaker 5 (40:58):
Why why I.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Told you that thing about having a bond with somebody
feeling like, you know, people have been charged some horrific things.
But I liked it. I could tell it was good
inside of them more. I just had a good connection
with them.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
You didn't feel that with him.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
They did not feel that with him.

Speaker 4 (41:14):
Let me ask you a question, good because that's interesting
with the with the you represented Donald Trump in the
storm Daniel's case. Was that ever? Was there ever even
a chance of you winning that? And the reason I
asked that is because it was politicized, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 5 (41:29):
It was politicized. It was all over the media. Everybody
knew it was a target on Trump, like they wanted
to nail it.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
No doubt, that was not a case that would have
been broader for anyone. And I mean that whether whatever
your opinions are of Trump, I'm talking about the defendant.
That case would never have been brought if we're not him.
It was a case of first impression. Would think about it.
It was a settlement of a a personal matter, right
alleged you know, affair, consensual, nothing looking, but you know,

(41:58):
she was basically trying to get money from him to
keep it quiet. He paid her. Whether it happened didn't
happen to irrelevant. He paid her some money. And of story,
he didn't take a tax deduction on it, he didn't
file it in his campaign thing. I mean, he paid
personal money. Somehow they try and make that into a
false filing in his own records. So because he put
you know, payment, legal feest or whatever in his internal records,

(42:22):
this attorney charge.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I'd never understood how that was a charge.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
It's not, it's not. It wasn't and I don't think
it would have held up in court. But you know,
all the things that happened have happened. I actually didn't
try that. I stepped out from representing man after that.
I beat the rape charge for Gene Carroll. That's the
one I was involved in the rape allegation, and we
won that. He was then clipped with sexual conduct, sexual

(42:48):
and the defamation of her. But and he look, here's
the bottom line. He cannot win New York drury trial
and just can never do it. It's just never happening,
you know. So that's that's that's a different thing. That
was a different thing altogether. You know, is there like.

Speaker 7 (43:07):
An ethics thing for your attorneys where like, because I'm
just sitting here thinking, like you representing Trump, like people
right now love everything about what you're doing because of
a sat right, But I'm sure during you represented Trump,
They probably thought you were like exactly something, and.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Then the others loved me like it's like you know,
when I represented Lelo Broncado, right, the Sopranos actor, the
guy they he and some other guy were breaking in
to get some drugs from a house. They were both addicts,
that crazy atats. They were going into a house of
a friend who used to give them drugs and he
was very dead, so they drugs were breaking cop. As

(43:44):
the neighbors sees it, the other guy shoots him dead.
Lelo is not a gun. He didn't know what the
guy's have gone. The other guy got life in prison
and Leo went to trial the charge home murders try
to murder, which is the same as murder. And we
beat that, and we beat it because we had to
present the case with Leo the fight, and you know,
we proved that he did not know that this other
guy are meant to had a gun. Now, you know,

(44:07):
I just told you I represent all these cops in
different cases, major cases, in case all these cases that
day that mean Pat Lynch was like, you know, in
the whole we almost had a fistfight, like so you know,
I'm a chamileon I guess I'm representing who I represent
that particular moment. When I represent Trump, A lot of

(44:27):
people hate me for that I represent. When I represent
someone like uh, you know, Rocky or Meek, other people
hate me for that, right, And I don't care. I
don't lose sleep. I have mirrors, as long as I
could look at the mirror and I do the right thing,
and I don't mess around like I you know, and again,
as long as I'm comfortable, like with the with the

(44:48):
with the Trump thing. I thought those cases I got
involved in, I thought, absolutely, yes, I really did certain
case I wouldn't get involved in.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
When you take a step back, right, and I'm sure
people have asked you a million in one time, and
you look at, for example, this Diddy case, would you
do a lot of things different than his attorney's actually
doing because it seems like they're already losing and it
just it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
What would you do different?

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Well, uh, I wouldn't go out in the press and
make pronouncements that are later disproved quickly because you sent
the loose credibility. I mean, there's this whole thing, like
the stupid baby oil thing, right, who cares first of all, right,
but that became like this, this this battle line, and

(45:32):
they went out and said, oh, you know, he just
brought him in bulk at that Costco right down the
block from his house. And that's that's why he has
it so big, No big deal. But baby, First of all,
it's a thousand bottles. Do buy a thousand bottle of
right Roads in bold, but that was what he said,
of course that. Then Costco then comes out with a statement, No,
we've never sold baby lotion in our life.

Speaker 5 (45:50):
Jesus, we don't.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Not one Costco ever sold baby loces. So boom, Now
it looks like somebody's lying. Right, you don't need that.

Speaker 7 (45:57):
Kind of stuff on the Cassie video too, And they.

Speaker 6 (46:00):
Came out strong before the video dropped.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
That was before you charged.

Speaker 6 (46:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Now look, here's the thing with the Cassio video that's horrible,
cringe worthy. Right, you don't do that. You don't put
your hand on a woman. I don't care what the
story is, just I wouldn't anyway, not how I grow right,
But that's not that's not What does that have to
do with these non consensual what they called freak off things?

(46:26):
What did that video have to do with that though, right,
and and I would say, well, and that's the one
count of the trafficking. She's the one person in the
trafficking count. Like, what does that video have to do? Okay,
maybe you should be charged with domestic violence in state court,
but what does that have to do with a non
consentual freak off where people are being alleged to have

(46:47):
non consensual you know, sex because they're drugged up and
they're being gang raped or whatever. I don't see why
that video was so of course, that video has been
played and showed and people think like, oh, he's guilty.
But he's guilty like assault of a woman who was
his girlfriend. That doesn't make me guilty of everything else. Now,
I don't know enough about the case. I was asked

(47:08):
to take a look at the case. There's another case.
I said, I would not be interested.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
I just want to the same same reason. Connection is
it's different a little bit.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
I represent Rock Nation, a lot of people from Rock
and very close with Jay and Desert Perez was most amazing,
Like I love them, bomb up a boss love amazing.
You know, Jay Brown, all those people are just like
there really are special, special people and they you know,
that's sort of family to me, and you know, I

(47:37):
don't think they're they're sort of.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Last question on that, do you think you.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
Should say that again? Please?

Speaker 1 (47:44):
I don't think they see repet Diddy.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
I just want to throw that out there, because you
remember everybody was saying when Jay said they weren't friends,
everybody was like they were in pictures together all the time.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Everyone was a picture of Peat Diddy at one time
or another, they went to a party. But when things
got real years and years ago, you know, do.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
You think he should have got a bail? And do
you think he didn't get a bail? Break that down
because I said the same thing and people thought I
was crazy?

Speaker 1 (48:11):
No, no, what what I mean? He was willing. First
of all, it was no mistake I thought they made saying, oh,
he'll have a ankle bracelet and stay in his.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
Mansion in Miami and monitor who comes in and the.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Case in New York. Staying at a resort in Miami
with a pool is not exactly really something I would
offer up to the court. What I would have said, Remember,
like I dk asked the French guy who was charged
here with the rape of a maiden hotel because named
Dominic cal Straan Dominic Strauss Khan his bail. He got bail.

(48:47):
And the reason he got bail was he said, I'll
rent the place here in New York, i will stay inside,
I'll have I'll pay for security, I'll have a brace on.
That's a concession. I think maybe if they had done
that from the beginning, that may have been something that happened. Look,
I don't you know, there's a presumption of innocence that
we still have to not worth. You know, people have

(49:09):
forgotten that in this country a lot. He is innocent
right now. He did He's innocent, whatever you think of
him or everything that you know, the evidence will be.
No one's seen a minute of testimony. Yet he's presumed
innocent until and unless the prosecution proves that case beyond
a reasonable doubt. They may do it one day, but
not today. And and you know, to get to keep
someone in jail for a year awaiting trial, they have

(49:33):
to either be a flight risk or a danger of
community or or or they've done something so horrific like
a murder. Right where you know, bail is not necessarily common.
This is a case of having parties that got out
of hand and there's allegations of you know, sexual misconduct.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
Okay, I just don't see how you, as an attorney
it can do. Like when when the court of public
opinion has already convicted somebody, which it seems like they
have with that's got to make your job so difficult.

Speaker 5 (50:05):
How do you don't know?

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Because every jura turns on the news, it's all over
on social media.

Speaker 6 (50:10):
And even with the.

Speaker 7 (50:10):
Video you mentioned, I feel like even though he's not
I mean, he's not convicted of anything in relation to
that video, but the picture that it paints, I don't
see how an attorney wins after that, because.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Well, you have to be smart. Look in the rape
cops case for it. So I'll tell you an example
of Rocky. Also in the rape cops case, these guys
before trial were called rape cops, rape cops. We're picking
a jury that called the rape cops case not a
leed rape cops case, rape cops. I fronted with the
jury said, you guys understand that they've been called rape
cops for years before you heard a minute of testimony.

(50:41):
They've been deemed rough committed crime. You guys should take
a fetch to that, because we as a society. Don't
want to be judged by the president deemed guilty before
we've had a chance to have a due process of hearing.
We then saw failing as a society if we do that. Look,
a great example of my day, example not so much
Monern anymore, but still relatively recent, is that Richard Jewel guy.

(51:05):
Remember that guy from the Atlanta Olympics. They used they
made a movie great, one of the best movies ever,
called Jewel. But he was the heavy security guard, the bomber,
they said, the Olympic bomber in the Atlanta Olympics. They
said he was the guy with the fat guy who
planted They said, planted a bomb and the Atlanta Olympics
that went off, and they you know, they FBI was

(51:25):
all over him. He was, you know, he was a
sort of a sort of hapless guy. And the guy
was a security guard and they say planted his bomb,
and he was condemned and the world had convicted them.
As a matter of fact. You know, there was that
Ted Kaczynski, the Montana bomb, the Union bomber. So they
called this guy to make fun of the UNI blubber,
and and it was basically they condemned him and they

(51:47):
he there was a lawyer who touch his case and
he didn't have any money, and some like you know
lawyer who worked in social work services basically said well
let me see, I don't know I help you. But
he's started looking at it by little things in that
up and the FBI was playing some games and it
turned out this guy was stone cold innocent and he
was actually a hero. He was actually trying to move

(52:09):
the bag that blew up and people from next to it,
and they thought he was going to plant it, and
he was exonerated. He was totally one exonerated. But his
life was over, Like how he had a year of
being called a murderer, a bomber terrorist making fun of him,
calling them the Uni blubber and the truth is never
as loud as July, right, and then and then and

(52:30):
then what happens He died of a heart attack like
six months later, like he just was his heart was broken,
his life was over, and it was really sad that
they had a great movie called Jewel. It's called Jewel
And if you know, you want to see how our
system could really screw up a life, watch that movie.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Do you feel do you feel like as a community.
We don't do enough as far as Jeurry Judy is concerned.
Like you talk about one hundred and seventy people and
it was five. And I talked about this on the
air a lot of times. It's effed up because we
don't want to go to court, We don't want to
spend that time. But then when we do something wrong
or when we're on trial, we don't have our peers.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah, you know, that's what some people told me. You know,
they were like, I'm like, how could this be? I
thought it was. I really thought it was a plant.
Like I was like, they're setting this up. This is
a setup. There's no way in downtown LA. You know,
they moved. They were thinking about moving the OJ trial
to Santa Monica to get it out of downtown LA
because so there wouldn't be so many blacks, right, And
the DA said, no, no, we don't want to give the

(53:26):
appearances that were doing that. So because it was on
the heels of Rodney King, so they kept in downtown
LA and we had, you know, eight black juris when
they filed in. I was like, I'm like, I mean,
I was the blackest guy in the room aside from
Rocky like me. So I'm like, what is going on here?
And it was just it was odd. But so someone

(53:48):
said to me, well, you know, someone's just go out
the jury. Somethings go out. We can't force people to
respond and show up, you know. So I'd say to
the community, you gotta you gotta show up to represent
because then then you know the day we need and
we being this community, the day that that's needed to
be represented. So you have a jury of your peers,

(54:09):
you know, if you don't show up, you're you're failing
each other. And I think that's important. That's a great
point to JAF.

Speaker 7 (54:15):
I have one more Diddy question and did another asap question.
So for Diddy, would you have advised him if you
were if you were his attorney when Cassie first reached
out to just achieve my god, just paid the money.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Listen to That was the honestly, And I don't I
hate they're talking to other attorneys because attorneys who do
that and don't believe me. There were so many jealous
people of me that I've heard people say, oh, he's
not a good trial. Heer's not a goodness And all
I do is win And then it was this last
case on national TV so people could see me cross examine,
see my five hours summation were like holy cow. But

(54:46):
you know, there are haters out there and people who
just say negative things to make themselves feel better because
they don't have good self worth, right, And anyone talks
negatively about other people publicly anyway, it's just because they
feel bad about themselves. I truly believe that. That being said,
I don't like the bad mouth of the lawyers, but
I'm just gonna talk facts here. That strategy that was
that was a legal trade wreck. What happened because this

(55:09):
avoided avoided he had that case where with Cassie right,
and it was all about a civil case. Civil there
was no prosecutes involved, no FBI nothing. They wanted a
settlement and you know, these lawyers said, you know, no,
they'll close. No, but no, and they said, well, we're
going to file a lawsuit if you don't give us

(55:30):
a settlement, and like, you know, go ahead, then bad.

Speaker 5 (55:35):
Bad move, you know, especially knowing the tape exists and
all that.

Speaker 7 (55:38):
Like that, I think they underestimated her, her voice, like
what she was going to do, how people would consider.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
How people can respond looking at this day and age. Now,
this day and age to cancel culture. My god, people
get accused of anything, gone, You're gone, Like that's it.
You don't even get a chance to defend yourself. Just
the accusation is enough to cripple somebody and this career. Right,
so that happens. He went from being on top of
the hill. You know, whispers always about him whatever, But
he went from be on top of the hill to

(56:08):
boom like the pariah. No one wanted to even and
they knew him. And look what happened. They filed that
lawsuit and what do you get? You get red ink
end of the world headlines, Right, did he rapist? But
all this crazy stuff and what do they do? The worst?
Once you let that happen, You now have to fight.
You have to fight that suit. You have to. But

(56:29):
instead the day after they filed it, they settled. And
so what that was was in admission and then it
opened up the floodgates. You notice what happened right after that,
right woo everyone whoever met him, me too, I want
the money to like he did to me. And there
was twenty thirty forty. Then the FBI was like, wait, well,

(56:49):
what all these women, so some of them will go
into law enforcement, someone will go into civil attorneys. But
it was an avalanche that came around him. And the
only reason that it happened is because they didn't sell
that case civily. Because if that Caste case was settled
and went away, none would have heard anything nothing. There
would no other people coming after the Diddy until that

(57:11):
thing was filed. Right, So if you're going to settle,
you settle before they filed the lawsuits. That's what you're
settling for, to prevent that public damage, right, But you
don't let them follow it. And then so the day
later that's the worst of all worlds because then it's
a mission and then bam.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
And you can't give him the benefit of the doubt
because you know he lied us about Cassidy. Then the
video comes out to it Now it's just like everything
else you hear, you like, I don't know what's.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
True and was not true, And none of that would
have happened if he settled, which is crazy. If you
had to do it roll over again, you know, we'd
give her one hundred million whatever, because what's his life worth?

Speaker 4 (57:45):
Because now I want to ask you something to I
only got a couple more questions. You worked under Michael
Jackson case. Is it true that Johnny Cochrane told Michael
Jackson once don't settle if you don't settle with anybody,
because when you settle, you become a pigyment.

Speaker 5 (57:58):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Do you feel that way for all cases?

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Not for all cases. I think each case is different, right,
Look what Michael was different? If you Michael said the
case somehow it was out there in the press, right,
that was Michael was Michael. There's only one Michael Jackson, right,
So I know Johnny did that to him, but he
was right to say that to him. But not every case.
But you know, sometimes the settlement is a good thing

(58:24):
because it just not because you did it or because
you want a mission. But just take Diddy as an example.
Sometimes the settlement will save more money than you could
ever imagined later and more heartache.

Speaker 5 (58:38):
But he actually did it.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
I'm talking about people who because I've seen cases where
people would settle just because they don't want the bad
press and they don't want to end up spending a
whole bunch of money and court for the next four
or five years.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
And I've represented some very very famous people without the
case ever become public, that have settled because it's not
worth it, just the allegation is not and they'll pay
money even though they proclaim their innocence. But they're like,
but yeah, but okay, so I met this person, so

(59:08):
there is they can prove that they know me or
met me. And now I have to then fight, like
and and go after this. But yet all under the
cloud of suspicion. And again in this day and age,
when you're when you're accused of something, it's like you
know your son are guilty, and if you challenge the accusation,
you're victimizing the victim even though they're not a victim. Yet,

(59:31):
Like that drives me crazy. You can't even defend yourself.
So if someone accused me of sexual misconduct and I
said she's a liar or she's made these false claims before,
oh how you're victimizing the victim all over again, and
did she become a victim that's the allegation. I'm telling you,
I'm innocent. I'm gonna fight this, so I you know,
but now if you defend yourself, you're you know, you're

(59:53):
a pariah. So it's just it's yes. So people do
settle all the time. It's called the nuisance, you know,
just to make sure that they don't wind up from
pigeon post DMZ and you know on the breakfast.

Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
Love and I got three more questions. You have one question?

Speaker 6 (01:00:11):
A question, right, Yeah, I have an a question.

Speaker 7 (01:00:13):
I just saw just now that he was named the
first ever creative director of Rayband.

Speaker 6 (01:00:18):
Yeah, it's Rocky.

Speaker 7 (01:00:19):
And I remember after the case happened, you talked about
and you talked about it here like telling Gucci to
hold off on the Gucci Guilty, which is an amazing
cent and by the way, but telling him to hold off.
And I just I think for me, when I heard
you talk about that, and I'm seeing this now, I
think about, even though he was proven innocent, were there
people who walked away, Like in the midst of this.

Speaker 6 (01:00:42):
No, everybody's saying I feel all the.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I mean, I was like on conference call of Comfort, Gucci, Puma,
all these different brands who worked with Rocky who wanted
to know what was going on, giving them up. They
I would tell them, we're gonna win, We're gonna win,
We're gonna win, but you gotta wait. Gucci Guilty was
my biggest heart attack. The wolfings to be called the
alone Gucci guilty, and they wanted to roll it out

(01:01:06):
before Valentine's Dad. I'm like, that would have missed the
middle of the trial. I'm gonna be summing up on
Valentine's Day. Can you do me a favor and just
wait another week? They're like, what's Valentine's I'm like, I
don't get They called Gucci not guilty. How about that?
Put it a little not in there and then let
it roll. But you can't call Gucci guilty. So what
they did was recompromise. They put the ad out with
Rocky in it holding the bottle cologne, and there was

(01:01:28):
no Gucci guilty. It was just the Colonne and Rocky.
But if you looked at the bottle to get real close,
it would say Gucci guilty on the bottle. But they
didn't put those big letters. Now there's all the big
letters and now I don't care, right, So that was nuts.

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
I got two more questions, did how good did it feel?
Because that was what's the young lady's name that'd be
doing this stuff? Megan was mean, Yeah, I saw you
point at her and said you were wrong.

Speaker 7 (01:01:49):
Oh yeah, if I think it came in talking about Rocky.

Speaker 9 (01:01:55):
Following us high Rocky and then one day, I mean,
you sent me some messages that were pretty against the prosecution,
very for Rocket, and one day whoop.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
I don't know what happened, but whoop. The defense is lying.
He's gonna be found guilty. Who would believe him?

Speaker 6 (01:02:14):
I'm like, I think it was the prop gun thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Nah, it was the prop gun thing. The proper gun
thing was in the beginning, so it wasn't the proper
First of all, if you're a journalist, be a journalist,
you're not. If you're not, if you're gonna pretend to
be a journalist and you're really not a journalists and
do what you want, say what you want. No journalist
says the defense is lying. They report the facts. It's
for other people to determine. Right. So I guess she's

(01:02:38):
not a journalist, but she's a blogger. Right.

Speaker 7 (01:02:40):
She's an attorney though, correct? Wasn't she an attorney at
one point? I don't think that she was an.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Attorney at one point? Wrong? I mean, listen, I don't
have any personal feelings against her, but it was it
was shocking to see her go from one to the other,
and she's like, no one's gonna believe this defense. Well,
guess what. And we had a three hour and look
we had a four week trial. We had a vert

(01:03:06):
in three hours. I knew that point we won. There's
no doubt. It's not one hundred percent because you never
know what a durid could do. But for twelve people
that can beyond a reasonable doubt on that evidence, it
was gonna take a long time to get everyone around
what we found out from I spoke to three drawers personally,
Rolling Stone spoke to one, and someone else spoke to one.

(01:03:27):
The one Dury that was on video was there basically
our worst drawer or the one who was against us
that she believed it was she believed, she believed. But
when they went to the drew room, ten people voted
immediately within one minute to it quit. Wow, Okay, there's
reasonable doubt. Look, can we say, can anyone say it's
definitely a prop gun? Of course not. Can anyone say
it's definitely a real gun? Of course not. So that's

(01:03:49):
reasonable doubt and that's not guilty though. That's it. But
you know, she then came out, she was walked to
the court and a three hour verdict. When you get
a three hour vert it's the defense verdict ninety nine
percent of the time, especially in a four week trial, right,
because you can't come to the conclusion that he's guilt.
You have to go really comb through the evidence. They
asked for one exhibit in their notes, the defense video.

(01:04:10):
That's it, the FNCH video. Five minutes later, we have
a verdict. It didn't take a rocket science figure out
where this was going. Right. So she's walking the court
like doing a selfie video. If anyone thinks this is
not guilty, they're crazy. Of course that it's guilty. They
didn't believe the prop cunning, and it's gonna be a
guilty very clearly. A quick video like this is death

(01:04:30):
for the defense. Okay, she's talking about but I guess
we're gonna say and or it's not guilty. And I
killed in and I just looked at her. I said,
you were wrong, you know, so whatever.

Speaker 7 (01:04:42):
By the way, I can't find any evidence that she
was an interney. I tried to look it up. Yeah,
I think it was.

Speaker 6 (01:04:46):
She worked for Long Cry.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
One of my favorite movies, Devil's Advocate, Keanu reeves you
know al Pacino and you know in that movie, can
resplayed the character named Kevin, and he's representing somebody.

Speaker 5 (01:04:56):
But in the midst of representing him, he realized, oh shit,
this mobuck's guilt.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Remember the child educated god hard while he was while
a young girl was understanding testifying. Have you ever been
in a situation like that, like in the mydst of it,
you like, I mean I think this motherfucker actually did it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it wasn't this case. Oh look,
I've tried one hundred and twenty jury trials and so
again a chunk of those was a prosecutor. But there's
been times where you know, I believe that since then
I saw some evidence halfway through it was like, but
you know, at that point, you're you're you're just fighting

(01:05:32):
them all. Yeah. All you can do at that point
is if they don't want to take it please, you
could just challenge the evidence, which is constitutionally what you
have to do. Right, someone could be guilty but also
be entitled to a not guilty verdict, And that sounds
weird to people, but the reason that's true is because
if the proof isn't there, if the prosecution has then
met their burden to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

(01:05:54):
The person's entitled to not guilty verd. The communities and
towed tore not guilty verd. The system isn't tout thro're
not guilty verdict it. You know, we're not a perfect system.
But what you definitely don't want is we start cutting
corners for people we know are guilty, because that's rick
or jewel. That's what starts happening. Oh they're guilty, so
we're you know, constitutional safeguards, we can cheat a little
bit here and there. That's when innocent people start getting clipped.

(01:06:15):
And that, to me is the worst thing that could
ever happen. When I representing people who are purely innocent,
that's the worst things for me because then I'm dealing
with like a pressure that is just enormous, enormous, And
you know, if you don't win that case, you feel
as like burden for the rest of your life.

Speaker 5 (01:06:31):
Does it bother you more with the more of the burden?

Speaker 7 (01:06:34):
Does it?

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
Like if you know somebody's guilty and still represent them
and when that isn't that a burden too?

Speaker 6 (01:06:39):
Though?

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
No? No, because that means it's system worked that means
it's system worked. It means the proof wasn't there. As
almost I'm not a borning perjury, which I would never
do as long as I'm not making you know, somebody
say something that's not true. If someone's guilty and I
think they're guilty, but they were found not guilty, that
means the proof wasn't there. The proof wasn't there, and

(01:07:03):
we need that person be found not guilty because it
keeps the system strong, keeps all of us safe, because
if we start again lowering stands for the ones we
know are guilty, that's when, really that's when innocent people
start getting convicted, and that's bad. So I could live
with that as long as the system was put to
the test and I've done my job, then you know

(01:07:24):
it's it's it's is what it is. The worst thing
is if you've represent someone who's truly, truly innocent, you
know that truly innocent, and they're being either framed, set up,
or just for whatever reason, there's an agenda, and you
know that's that's the stuff that you lose sleepover because
God forbid that convicted. I mean, just like, how do
you deal with that? Do you have that with you

(01:07:45):
for the rest of your life. So fortunately I've not
had that happen. I've represent a lot of innocent, truly
innocent people. They've all been vindicated, thank god, because if
I had that happen, that would be that would be,
you know, something that would be very tough to go
on with.

Speaker 5 (01:07:59):
Absolutely do next, because do you take a break? Do
you jump right back into a case?

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
I gotta. I'm gonna have to go to my off sets,
so I'm afraid to see what I want to find
on my desk. I mean, been there for five weeks.

Speaker 7 (01:08:09):
Especially now, you don't like take a break like you gotta,
you miss, No.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
That's the left for trial or I mean, look, will
I take any downtime? Maybe a few days here or there,
But I got there's a judge dying to get me
on trial in Westchester County waiting for this case to
be over, So so I know that's gonna happen soon.
Trial in Arizona coming up. So it's you know, whatever
it is, what it is. Yeah, try and take care
of myself, keep myself in good shape, work out a

(01:08:40):
lot well, and that gives me a little extra energy,
you know, go forward.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
You need a documentary or something absolutely seriously with all
the represented.

Speaker 5 (01:08:52):
Hey, Joe, good to meet you. Pray Yeah, absolutely, sir.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Well, we we definitely gonna keep your number because if
we see any cases that we don't understand, we might
need all to break some things down.

Speaker 6 (01:09:01):
For some time. I called you before I got you
on the phone.

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
That's right, wells as Joe Joe tackle Pena. It's the
Breakfast Club. Good morning, wake that ass up in the
morning for Breakfast Club.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}INTERVIEW: Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky's Lawyer, Talks Felony Assault Trial, A$AP Relli Perjury, Diddy, Michael Jackson + More