September 10, 2025 • 42 mins
Today on The Breakfast Club, Shaka Senghor Reveals Life's "Hidden Prisons", Finding Freedom, Forgiveness. Listen For More!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Don't every day a week ago clicks up the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all done morning.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Everybody is dj en Vy Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the gud
We are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest
in the building. Yes, indeed, Shakas and welcome back, Brotherling.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Thank y'all so much for having
me back. Man.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Shaka just put out an amazing new body of work, Man,
a new book, How to Be Free, a proving guid
escaping life's hidden prisons.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Man, what is a hidden prison?
Speaker 5 (00:31):
It's the things that you don't see that standing away
of you living the best life for yourself.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
Right.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
So, when I've thought about this, this big idea and
created this kind of blueprint to help people live the
life that they're fully capable of, the fully deserving of,
I recognize that we all had these hidden prisons, you know,
self doubt, negative self talk. You know, that's one of
the big things that kind of standing away. But there's
also things like anger, grief, shame, things from our childhood
(00:57):
that really doesn't allow us to show up fully authentically
in our full potential.
Speaker 6 (01:03):
You know, I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I know you got the book out, but there's a
lot that's been going on, and I figured you would
be the right person to ask some questions about so
everything going on in Atlanta.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
It seems like people, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Say, glorify the street, right, glorify things that happen in
the street. And I feel like sometimes people don't know
how to get out of it. Right, you see what
happened to Atlanta. Everybody's a niche, this person's a rat.
When do you get to an age or what do
you tell those young as it says, hey, it's not
worth it.
Speaker 6 (01:30):
We see what's happening. But it seems like they don't
learn their lessons.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So what do you tell one of those little young
those little young brothers out there.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Because that's a prison that's not hidden.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
But I think one of the things with our culture,
specifically like hip hop culture, is we've kind of intermingled
the idea that these guys are really street guys and
really they artists. They're kids who are trying to figure
out how to make money using the talent but also
using the stories from a background that society has sold
us on as being like the way to show up
in world, right, like the only way we can make it.
(02:02):
And what I tell the young people is that it's
made way more money in legitimate enterprise. And like I
was pretty decent with street sales, but I can tell
you make way more money in legitimate enterprise. And the
accessibility to it now is something we see. I mean,
like you can take a phone and build a whole career, right,
And so I think we have to separate like what's
(02:23):
really the streets from like what's music culture and these
kids pretending to be street guys, because it's kind of
ridiculous if you think about it. If you're making all
this money in music, then why are you going backwards?
Because it's not many guys that's really financially successful coming
for the streets, Like and I mean, you talk to
any of the guys that actually are you know, recognized
(02:44):
from being in that environment, they tell you most guys
don't make real money in the streets. Most guys are
basically minimum wage.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
You know, workers.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
So if you're making all this legitimate money in music,
why would you kind of try to intermingle that with
this identity that's not real?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Man?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
That's a great point and what do you say to
people who act like the screeches in industry?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And what I mean by that is.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You'll have folks that will say things to you like, well,
who determines what's legal and illegal?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Or who determines what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Because they'll say, there's people out here that make money
selling alcohol.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
There's people that out.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Here that's making money selling marijuana. Now I'm like, that's
not the same, Like the screech is not a real industry.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, no, I mean it's a kind of dispersed industry. Right,
It's like anything goes, but you when you look at
how you know, for example, the marijuana industry, right, how
that's evolved to become legitimate enterprise. Right, Like that's where
we should be, folks, And how do we change laws
and policies to work for our advantage insteady being victimized
(03:43):
by these policies and then somebody else reaps all the benefits.
And so you know, I'm always telling telling you know,
the young people that I mentor is really think about
how do you get ownership and whatever it is you're
interested in. Like that's I've been in Silicon Valley for
three years, which actually is one of the inspirations for
right now this book, because I work with people that's
like ultra wealthy, and yet I see them have kind
(04:06):
of like some of the same prisons that you know,
I see.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
People in a neighborhood.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I've seen people who is actually in real prison have
that same kind of mental blocks that doesn't allow them
to show up authentically. Even though it looks like they
got all the travelers of success, they're still not happy
and fulfilled. So that's to me, it's more like, how
are you getting equity, but also how are you creating
like the mental equity to really live a life that you.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Want to live.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I got one more question with that. Is there a
cold when it comes to the street in your opinion,
But we.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
Had a conversation about cold. Is there a cold? Is
there a cold that you're supposed to follow or is
it just.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Is it legal activity, you know, I mean, or is
there something that guidelines that should be followed.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
I mean, I grew up in the era of like
crack cocaine, so I can't speak to with there's codes.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Now.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
I haven't been in the streets in like thirty some years,
and I'm fifty three years old.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Man, successful business man.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
I'm an entrepreneur, married, I got a kid, I got investments.
But I do you know, I mean, I still do
a lot of work with with people in prison and
in the neighborhoods, and you know, I kind of know that.
You know, it's the codes are really your personal values, right,
everybody can say that they're real and to them handcuffs
going up to you in that terrogation room, and you're
(05:16):
really facing a life sentence. And that's what that's what
we don't talk about, is how many different ways you
can end up serving life without actually even really doing
anything meaningful, just by associations, right, you know, when you're
talking about those rico charges, a lot of these guys
not making real money. They just around and then you
get swooped up and the way the farest players, they
(05:37):
gonna load up everything they could charge you with and
then most likely you'll plead out, which is like ninety
five percent of people do.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
But yeah, I don't.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
I stay out the streets and I'm out here just
being a grown mary man.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
No, we try to tell the youngers that to stay
out the streets absolutely in a minute, it ain't worth it,
and any little bit of money you were gonna make,
or any little bit of clouds that you're gonna make,
ain't like worth the ten life sentences, two lifesent This
is a one life sentence, you know.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
I mean, it ain't worth missing your family, life, your kids.
It ain't worth it.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Man.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
You know, the nineteen years in prison that I serve,
I've watched life go by. You know, I came home,
my younger siblings were adults. My nephews and nieces didn't
even know me, you know, they had to get to
know me. And so you can't you can't replace those years.
You know, there's nothing you can do to get that
time back. And this is what I can tell you
for sure about about prison. Life is the toughest break
(06:27):
under those circumstances. Everybody when they when they hit that
pillar at night, they're wishing that they would have made
different life choices, you know what I mean. So I
wouldn't wish that on anybody, and I try to discourage guys.
I think one of the things I will say that
I'm proud of that I'm starting to see in our
culture it's more interest being you know, placed on actually
the legitimate financial investments you know, I think about what
(06:50):
the young brother's doing on your leisure. You know, I
think about Wallow and some of the brothers I've been
able to interact with, and I'm like, Yo, that's that's
a move right there, because it's still cool at the
end of the day. If it's really about making money.
Investments is a way to make make a lot of money,
you know, And that's the freedom that I even talk
about in the book.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
It's like financial freedom.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
You know, how are you taking advantage of these opportunities
that's really right in front of you? And you know,
my philosophy is simple. I came from nineteen years in prison,
seven years in solitary confinement, to becoming really, really successful,
not only as an author but also as an investor.
So my philosophy is like, if I can do it
coming from those circumstances, what excuse you got?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (07:31):
So I tell my mentees, you got to take every
excuse off the table because I've done all the hard
work for you. And that's you know, That's what I've
done in this book is like, here's a framework and
a blueprint for you to literally live the freeest life possible.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
One of the biggest hitting prisoners I see is people,
you know, being defined by their past mistakes, are not
knowing how to let go of their past mistakes. So
how do you keep from being defined by your past
mistakes when the system is sometimes even your own people
want to keep you stuck there?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Man, I stay out the comments. It's brutal out there. Man.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
No, but but but really it's a lot of self
affirming care right. It's like negative self talk is one
of the biggest self imposed prisons I've found where even
successful people are doubting themselves or you know, dealing with
imposter syndrome, like why am I in this room?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Do I really belong in this room?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
And so for me, you know, the way that I've
kind of mapped my life out is really through writing
it down Like journalists, one of the greatest hacks in
life is like when you see it, you can be
super clear on Hey, here's who I actually am, not
who they say I am. I get judged all the time,
like why are you able to do some of these things?
You know, you went to pro went to prison for
a homicide. You know, it's one of the most regrettable
(08:43):
acts in my life, and It's something I could never undo,
which is why I'm so conscious about talking to the
young guys about the decisions that they make. And I've
also lived fifteen years of freedom where I've been able
to create, you know, a lot of value for community
that I mean, I've invested in the community in the
real way, and so I've done way more good than
(09:04):
I've done bad. But the reality is people are going
to bring that up. You know, they're gonna judge you
for that. And so that's why that self talk is
so important, and journaling and really writing it down and
getting super clear about who you are really is what
makes the world of difference.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Let me ask you a questions. What's free to you?
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And the reason I asked that is some people look
at free as financial freedom. One of my biggest things
for myself was making sure my kids were free. And
when I mean free, I mean this life is short.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Try to set them up.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Where they can do what they want to do just
to be happy. Right, if my daughter wanted to do
here for the rest of my life, what ever made
her happy? It ain't about the mansions, the cause and
all that that we think that some people idolize.
Speaker 6 (09:43):
Some people don't. But what's free to you? Because I
always felt just living a free life and being happy
is free to me.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Yes, it's really having complete agency and autonomy over my
time and how I spend it and who I spend
it with, and being able to wake up and every
day and say that I'm intentional about the where I
live my life, that I'm unburding by anything that does
not coincide with my core values.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
And so you know, I'm an artist, so I want
to wake up and be able to create, you know,
I want to be able to spend time with people
that I actually value and care about in a meaningful way.
And like being able to create space for myself and
create a lifestyle that really allows me to have that agency.
That's like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
But then I you know, I drilled down into like
what is financial freedom? You know, that's really recognizing that
my money actually works for me instead of me working
for money. What does freedom look like with love?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Right?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Is being able to show up authentically with my family,
being vulnerable, being open, you know, not playing this kind
of put this mask on as a dad or as
a husband, and being able to show up in that
way man, it's the most incredible sense of freedom. And
then you know the socially, you know, one of the
things that this will be the first place that I
shared this on because it was share. Recently, Oprah talked
(10:56):
about me putting in for my partner and she asked
me what would mean if I got my partner, and
I said, it the mean that I'm you know, now
I'm back included in the tribe, because there are barriers
when you have a felony on your life, you know,
and it's been you know, you know, I caught this
felony in nineteen ninety one and it still impacts my life,
my wife's life, my son's life, and unfortunately, we just
(11:18):
learned that they didn't give me that pardon, and so
I had to reimagine, like what this freedom looked like
to be unburdened by a system. And really what it
looks like to me is I was a presidential party. Well,
it wouldn't have been president and governor because I was.
My case was state so Whittmer in Michigan, and they
shot it down at the fifteen years and I'm talking
(11:40):
about come on, yeah, what I've received in fifteen years
is like unparalleled for somebody who was formally incarcerated. But
it was one of those moments, right, Well, I had
to go back to my own book, the own my
own framework of like, Okay, how do you navigate that disappointment,
you know, without it spiraling? Right, Because it's infuriating when
(12:01):
you think about, I've done all this work in the
world and I'm still told that it's not enough, you
know what I mean, how does.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
That make you feel?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Because you you know, not that it's it's you know
that you deserve it or you earn it, but you
did so much for your city, right, You've changed, You've
talked about your change, you accepted what happened, like you've
been a man and said, you know, this is what
it was.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
But you've made it your life.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
To make sure that you've changed and you give back
and that for them to turn you down, what does
that do to you?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah? I mean it was it was a moment.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Man.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
You know.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
I remember my wife and I we were you know,
she had brought the mail in and she handed me
the mail and you know, we both kind of like excited,
like all right, well what's going to happen?
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Right? And I open up and it was just like
the way they shot me down.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
It wasn't even no clarity as to why, right, it
was just like, you've been denied reapplying two years. And
in my man, I'm like, Okay, what do I What
do I accomplish in two years that I haven't accomplished
in fifteen?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right? And so it's that thing of like that.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
That reminder that comes back over and over You're not
worthy to be fully included. And so what I what
I what I did is I actually literally went to
the playbook that I've outlined in How to Be Free,
and I went back in our journal. I was like,
how do I really feel about this? What does this
really mean for my life? And what is my plan
moving forward? Because initially I was like, man, I'm not
(13:20):
a plan back in two years? Like why would I?
Why would I do that? I've accomplished so much. I mean,
I'm been Grammy nominated album with NAS, Emmy winning film
with Able to Verney, New York Times Bestseller fellow at
m I T Fellow at Virginia Tech Kellogg Like you name.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
It your community work, community work, you know what I'm saying.
And so I'm like, what more? What more? Do they
want from me?
Speaker 5 (13:44):
And it was like through that process of writeing and down,
it was like, you know, at the end of the day,
I'm gonna show up in the spirit of gratitude for
all of it.
Speaker 6 (13:52):
Have you talked to the government.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Have y'all spoke at all?
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I've never spoke to the governor because you go, it
goes through a whole parole, board, part and board. I
spoke to the lieutenant government. I actually know lieutenant governor.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
And then he running and he's running for governor.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
He's probably running for governor.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
So yeah, Gilgris, Yeah, and so you know, it's it's
it's one of those things where you just kind of
go back to like what is my role in this right?
And for me, it's coming back to a spirit of gratitude.
My life is blessed. I'm blessed. Even the things that
challenged me betters me. And so that's how I so
it's approach it.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You know, we pay attention to stuff like that Governor
Shapiro's with Governor joshapairoll he pardon Wallow, Yeah, you know
in Pennsylvania. So you know, Governor, your women, I hope
you know, attention to stuff.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Like that that's real.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You know one of the other hidden prisons man that well,
I want to ask you about hitting prisons. Can freedom
be obtained if you are physically free, but you're still
battling things within your stuff? That's why I love that
you did this guide to being a hitten prison, because
I wonder that when you're you're out physically, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Can it truly be attained if you still battling things
within here?
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Here's one of the things that I shared in the
book that I think blew people mind is that I
realized I was incarcerated before I was having a prison
cell like. Mentally, I brought into a narrative that my
life can only have two outcomes dead or on prison
before twenty one.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And I ended up living that narrative.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
But I was also free before they ever let me out,
because I took the time to really start to do
the hard work right of asking that question, how did
I end up here?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Right? Like?
Speaker 5 (15:22):
How did I end up serving out my most promising
years in a sale Like? I wanted to be a
doctor and an artist and I ended up getting caught
up in the street coach when I was fourteen years
old and dealt with all the things that came with that.
And so when I was actually in physical prison, I
started to kind of write my way out, journaling I
got free before they ever let me out. And so
(15:43):
the reason I wrote this book is working in Silicon
Valley and working in the community, I started to see
a consistent trend of people really who were like stuck.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
You know. Sometime it was grief.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Sometimes they couldn't get over the loss of a job,
the loss of a loved one.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Sometimes it was shame.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
You know, Silicon Valley is a very aggressive environment, right,
It's like it's hard. You got to be a real
hustler to survive in that environment. And I would see
people just get broken from being shamed when they didn't
execute on the project. And so I started to see
these consistent patterns anger, the inability to forgive, which is
something that I think really is a hidden prison for
(16:24):
a lot of people, where you get stuck and this
thing of like I'm going to hold on to like
not forgiveness person. Meanwhile that person out somewhere frolicking, and
you get up upset every time you think of it,
and you just can't move on with your life. And
then there's also like these well intended prisons, right, helicopter parenting.
Have you see that parent who's just like, I'm gonna
do all the things for my child. I'm a Hoffer
(16:45):
over room. And then your child doesn't build up resilience,
They don't build up any agency, they don't build up
any capabilities.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
And even in love life, right, it's like we broke up,
but we're going to remain friends. And then you wonder
why you can never find a husband or a wife
because you're trapped in these old narratives. And so it's
a lot of people that's out here that's stuck in
the old story.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Talk about the forgiveness freedom, right, that was a tough
one for me for a long time.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Right, I held things right?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, and you know I was.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I was talking to somebody recently, and then I didn't
hold them for forgiveness or non forgiveness. I held them
for revenge, right, because I felt like I needed that
look back.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
I mean I need that for two right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So that's one of the most difficult for people. So,
so break that down. As far as the forgiveness freedom.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
That's a great one.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
So interesting enough, a couple of years ago I got
a letter from the guy who shot me when I
was seventeen years old. This exchanged our beef. It was,
you know, thirty seconds right put up on the block.
We had words exchange.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
He shot me.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
I never saw this guy's face, shot me three times.
I get this letter and he's like, yo, I'm the
guy who shot you. I apologized at the time. He's
still me in prison right now. I got mad respecting there.
You know what I'm saying, Like I can literally call
and shoot somebody. Somebody on their books, take care of dude.
I felt that old anger come up for hot second,
(18:09):
for a hot second, and I literally said, well, what
do you preach? You preach that people are worthy of
second chances, Like you got to be a man of
your word. You gotta honor that right. And so I
had to sit with that, and I realized that the
anger was rooted and I never saw.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
This guy's face. So I looked him up on the.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Computer, saw his face, and I made peace with that,
and I started writing him a letter. And then I
was like, you know what, I don't owe him that
I can forget his brother moved on. But instead I
actually wrote a letter to my mother because we were
in a space of healing and I was getting to
a space of realizing I thought I had forgiven her,
but I was holding on to something, and so that
(18:47):
letter allowed me to release that and get to a
space where Man, my mother and our relationship has evolved
to the point where I feel like the parent, you
know what I'm saying, and trying to protect the little
girl that got hurt.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
That turned her into a hurt woman and a hurt mother.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
And that was the beauty of forgiveness, is like I
forget this guy. I had to let it go. I
could have, you know, been back in that old energy.
And I'm like, man, that don't feel good in my spirit,
you know what I mean, Because I've said to people
like you aren't your worst moment. And like that guy,
whatever moment he was in when he shot me, I
was in a similar moment when I shot somebody else.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
But would you feel different if he didn't apologize, If
he didn't come out and say I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Would you.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Feel differently and not say, you know what, I needed
that apology, you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (19:39):
Would it make you feel different?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Would you still forgive the same way if he didn't
apologize and you found out who it was, Yeah, I would.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Because I have the wisdom how to understand that oftentimes
people are operating out of a spirit or hope that
has nothing to.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Do with me. Oo you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Yeah, I mean like a lot of times we're holding
on to things with people that we aren't even really
thinking about how did they arrive at that right? Like
you know I talk about in the book, my brother
was murdered in July twenty twenty one, and I remember
sitting in my family's living room and I'm you know,
I'm coming home. I'm like, let me come home and help,
but my brother let me be a support for my dad,
(20:16):
my mom. And then I had this moment where I
was watching my step mom and she's heartbroken. It's her
baby boy that's been murdered. And I felt guilty, you
know what I mean. So I was caught between this
world of trying to grieve for my brother, guilty because
I made somebody else family feel like that, you know
what I mean. And so I was sitting there like,
what's stuck with this energy? And so when I look
(20:40):
at somebody who's done something that's harmful, like I can't
like just just them solely based on that without looking within.
And when I look within, I realized that the decision
I made as a nineteen year old kid came from
a space of hurt, PTSD, all the things. So whether
he would apologize or not, I have to realize that
that he was probably similar, you know, he probably came
(21:03):
through gun trauma and gun violence and there was something
inside him that was broken, you know what I mean,
that had nothing to do with me. That's how me
and my mother was able to hear my mother she
started to open up to me man about the things
that happened in her life, and it all made sense.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
You understood, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
I understood that she was, you know, sexually assaulted as
a kid, she was abused as a teenager, you know
what I mean. And so like once I recognize that,
I have to see that in anybody that I have
conflict with, that something inside of them is dictating the
behavior in the same way that it happened with me,
you know what I mean. So that's how I get
(21:39):
to that deep forgiveness. And that's one of the things
about the book that you as you begin to read
through it, not only are you getting these powerful stories,
but you're really getting like, here's a how to unlock
that door and let yourself out, because when you don't forgive,
the other person isn't suffering like you're You're trapped in
that cage, right, And so I wanted to make sure
that people had the keys let themselves out.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You have a shocked by the amount of people that
want to keep you in that box. That that that
box of oh yeah, he murdered somebody when h nineteen
years old, because I saw the comments on Joe Rogan.
But then on the flip side, yo, you your your
redeeming quality was that moment. It was the fact you
went to prison. I was at Rikers with you. Yes,
(22:22):
I said, the connection that you have, you know, with
these inmates. You tell that story and they automatic you
can you can see them like, oh I can relate
to what that brother went through, Like they look at
you as a beacon of hope. You know, somebody who
paid it to society and made it. So you have
a shock how people want to keep you in that box.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
I'm never really shocked because I know that oftentimes people
are operating out of their own hurt, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (22:43):
And like they're hot. They are.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
We live in a snap judgment society, like people can
look at you and make a decision and a split
second without actually really getting to know you. You know,
That's one of the things I was super happy when
we went into Rikers Island is the work that you're
doing in the world. I think it's some of the
most incredile but meaningful work ever. You know, this mental
health piece is so important to our culture, and prison
(23:06):
is where it's really needed at.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
And for you to be able to bear witness to
that in that testimony, you see that people aren't in
there like yo, let me get out and wild out.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
They're really looking for help and they're really hurt.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
And so you know that balances out for me, you
know what I mean, to go in there man and
pour into people and like those are my people, that's
my tribe, you know what I'm saying. But to go
in there and the pouring to them and had them
pour into me, like that balances out all the negativity,
you know what I mean, and what I always think
about you know, I'm thinking about them people in the comments.
You know, I sometimes I'm kind of petty in my thoughts.
(23:40):
You know what I'm saying, I'm like, here, this person
is trying to troll me, and I might have just
flew in on a PJ. I'm good, you know what
I'm saying, Like I'm great, man. My wife might have
just went out and had an amazing dinner. My son might
have accomplished something brilliant, Like life is good, and like
that's where I think sometimes we get lost at especially
with like you know, all the digital content is we
(24:02):
forget we're living a real life. We're really present in
the moment. And again that's another practice that I have.
It's mindfulness. It's like it doesn't mean that you don't
hear the things. I just bring myself back to my
real moments. Where am I really at in life? You
know what I mean? Am I stuck in nineteen ninety
one because that's where they want to be?
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Or am I actually present? You know? Am I out
here pruning my plants? You know what I'm saying, I'm.
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Out here you know, doing whatever it is at home
that brings me joy?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
You know?
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Am I sitting out and the grives just reading the
book and enjoying life while these people are miserable, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
So I don't give too much, but you do.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
You do understand people's mindsets sometimes, right. I remember the
first time when I heard the story, and I remember
the first time you came on the breakfast club reading
the comments, and the first thing people would say was, well,
why him?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Right, he just did this?
Speaker 6 (24:50):
Why is he on Oprah? Why is he on a
breakfast club? Like this is not fair because people are
so used to people doing things and not changing.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
They see, like you said, they see the negatives things,
but they don't see the other side of it, right,
And sometimes I feel like, and this is why sometimes
I have a problem with Sometimes people are the church
that do foul stuff or they talk about the stuff
that they shouldn't do, and then you see them doing
the thing like we're not all human, like we all
don't make mistakes, right. But it's always I always says
apology is fine, but it's the change behavior that shows everything. Absolutely,
(25:20):
And we've seen your journey from that change behavior. So
I'm sure you understand why people's first knowledge of first
mind frame is this, that and the other.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Right you have to yeah, no, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
And I think about how we arrive at our conclusions
right as we see the end product. So they see
me here, you know, they don't see the work that
it took for me to get here.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
They see me on Oprah, and I realized I came home.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I was literally hustling books out of the trunk of
my car like a lot of people be like they
got it out the mud. Me and my brother we
always talk about we got it from beneath the mud.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
I used to set up tables and gentlemen's clubs. You
know what I'm saying to be like yo by these books, right,
And I've got rejected so many times. I mean I've
tried to get employment, felly came up, like you name
a rejection.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
I's got it.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Right, And so they don't see that part of the
of the journey. But also understand, right, people feel like,
you know, you you've done something bad in life. You
don't deserve any good to happen to you, you know,
but I hate you for that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah it's hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
You know, I'm not gonna name names, but we've got
rappers who've done that and rap about it, and yeah,
haven't shown any.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Change made at all. They still get welcomed everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yeah, I celebrated absolutely, And I think that's one of
the things in our culture, like we pick and choose
what we what we celebrate, and would always just try
to tell people is like, understand, as long as you
wake up breathing, you're on a journey, you know what
I mean, And where you start doesn't mean it's where
you have to end. That's That's the amazing thing that
you know people will really get out of the book
(26:49):
is that Look, I started, you know, in the in
the worst of environments, with the worst of circumstances, and
mentally I began to break free from that and start
to think about what is what is life possible abilities?
Like I was telling you know, the brothers and sisters
in prison yesterday, I wrote down when I was in
solitary confact I didn't even know if I was getting
out of prison. I was like, but if I ever
(27:09):
get out, here's all the things that I want to
manifest in my life. And I still had those journals
right now in my garage, and I wrote down everything
that I wanted accomplish, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
And so I did that because life really.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Is a journey and as long as you wake up breathing,
you got an opportunity, and it's really up to you
to seize that opportunity. And so that's what I've done.
I've seized the opportunity. And I just keep growing and
keep building, and keep evolving and keep being just curious
about life.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
One of the things that kept coming up yesterday even
at Rikers was the topic of grief. Yeah, and man,
grief is one of those hidden prisons that it's almost like,
you know, you're get in trouble back in.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The day, you end up doing a weekend. You had
a good week, you that work, but.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Getting locked up for the weekend, you do some of
those guys that had to go in on the weekend, Right,
That's what it feels like with grief.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So how do you get out of that hidden prison
of grief?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, that's that's that's when I actually start
with grief because I think it's the toughest prison for
anybody to get out, because can't nobody gets come to
you to be like charlamagn't stop grieving, Like that'll be
mean or cruel, right, and all grief isn't the same, right, Like,
you know, when I think about my brother's death. I
think about that diffinitely from my grandmother who just got
older and she passed and she transitioned sad miss Granny
(28:26):
missed the things.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
My brother that was traumatic.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
You know what I mean, sonstandable, It's more understandable, right,
And so those different type of grief. You can go
back to work after two weeks after you know, grandma passed.
Somebody in your family is murdered or tragically lost, that's.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
More difficult, right.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
What I what I arrived at for myself is gratitude.
You know, how do I How am I thankful for
the time that I spent with my brother? How am
I thankful for my brother's name is Shara is always
want to shout him out's name?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Is?
Speaker 5 (28:55):
How do I honor what he meant to our family?
You know, my siblings and and and that's what allows
me to heal.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
But here's the thing, like in the book.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Even the way that we designed the book, there's a
door in this part where it's about digging deeper. And
the reason I created the open door is because sometimes
you go in and out of these things. If you
live life long enough, you're gonna grieve more than once right,
And it's not always death. Sometimes it's an employment loss,
it's a love loss, it's losing a friend, friendships to end.
And to me, it's always about gratitude. You know what
(29:27):
am I thankful for in this experience? And it doesn't
take away like the longing for those moments or missing
my brother. It just allows me to reframe that his
life wasn't the moment it ended. It was all of
the things that came before that. And I got a
chance to appreciate that and spend time with him, and
you know, and and and love. Well, this was my
(29:48):
only little brother, you know, this my baby brother, and
and all the time we got a chance to share.
You know, I wanted to be able to honor that,
you know, through a spirit of gratitude.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
And so yeah, you talk about that in the book.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So it's like, whenever that grief comes up, just just
be grateful for the time you did spend.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, Like what what part of that?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
You know?
Speaker 5 (30:08):
I go back to like my brother, Like I have
a younger sister named Bootsie and her and she's the
baby girl.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
He was the baby boy.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
And they have a special relationship, right, they talk smack
to each other all the time. So on those tough
tough days, I think about the way that them too
used to joke, you know what I mean, and that
brings me my spirit a sense of peace, you know,
And that's and that's you know. In the book, also
talk about we had this beautiful puppy that you know,
a negligent trainer left the gate open and got ran over,
(30:37):
you know, and it was like it was heartbreaking, you know.
And I also talk about my younger son, Say who
being diagnosed with type one diabetes and seeing his young
life changed.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
So there's that type of grief.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Right and like now we have to manage and navigate
life through that lens, which is you know, it's wild
as a parent, you know, because you think about your
kid accomplished something. The first thing you do, let's go
grab ice cream, you know. So we had to start
thinking differently about all these moments, but again just leaning
into gratitude that he's the type of kid that's like
(31:08):
I'm gonna I'm going to fight this thing and I'm
going to stand up you know, to my own body,
and like that watching him, that gives me a sense
of like, man, I'm thankful that we've embode in his
spirit so that he can, you know, he can rise
to the casion.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
In part three of the book, you talk about embracing
freedom and down the separate chapters. I'm just gonna name
all the chapters, but I want you to tell me
which one of those is the most important for finding
and embracing freedom.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
So you have hope and composure.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you have love, you have joy, you have success,
you have facing down fear, becoming unstoppable, finding true freedom?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Which one of those is most important?
Speaker 4 (31:46):
All of them? Trying to man, you gotta read all,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
But I would say the thing that I found the
most interesting was was joy, especially like as a as
a man. You know, we don't we don't often give
ourselves from missing to fully give in to the idea
that we can't experience joy and happiness and that it
doesn't make you sow for a week or a lame
or whatever. That it's actually dope and amazing, you know.
(32:11):
And so I think joy really kind of undergirds like
what it means to love, you know, to you know,
one of the things that is great to me is
like my son and my wife, they have similar energy.
They're like excitable and like you know, they get turned
up like you know, for anything, and I always watch
that and it's just like, man, that's an amazing orientation
(32:33):
around life, you know, And even though I don't have
that type of energy, Like my mindset is more like
how do I show up in joy with them? And
then how I show up and joy in my own life.
And it was a difficult thing I didn't even realize,
Like my reaction to things that are joyful was initially resistance.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
You know.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
I got invited on an incredible trip to go to
Italy yacht for like thirteen days, and my instinct was
like figuring out ways why I shouldn't go on this trip.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
And that's when I realized it.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Was attached to something deeper, this this inability to really
just give myself permission to let go. And once I
identified that, I was like, oh, I'm not standing my
own way anymore. I'm showing up you name, you name.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The same thing.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
I'm going to it, you know what I'm saying, Uh,
And I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna be president and
like that to me is like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, I was glad you used that term of joy
because I've been saying in this era that we're in
right now, black people have to create safe spaces for
us to just simply experience.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Jo Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, because that's that's the thing. Like
so much of like where we're at coachally, we're in
survival mode, you know, and once you step out of
survival and getting the thriving, you realize that that joy
is like one of the greatest components of what it
means to live a life that where you're thriving at
When you're in that survival mode, it's hard to appreciate anything,
(33:57):
you know what I mean. It's like we we celebrate,
but are we fully present in that celebration, you know.
And that's what I really wanted to offers, like here's
how you like not only not only experienced joy, but
be a joy hunter, you know. So I have this
part in the book where I talk about how do
you seek it out?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
How do you go and find it?
Speaker 5 (34:14):
How do you go in and experience and be curious
about life in such a way where you're like, oh,
that actually was joyful?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
So when I'm when I'm out different cities, different times,
I'm like, what would bring me joy in terms of experience,
Like my one of my favorite things is I like
to collect first edition paperback books written by block authors.
So when I go into a city, I'm like, where's
the used bookstore at? And I'm telling you, like I
be hyped up, like I'm about to go get the
(34:41):
latest mixtape. You know what I'm saying, because that brings
me joy, that sense of fulfillment of like seeing these
pages that somebody has written.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
I mean, I'm a.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Writer, so that that's like my joy hunting. I'm like
out on a mission.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
You know, it's wild because as you're saying that, I'm
watching your wife smile and so like she felt, he
feels she knows the joy you feel from that, and
it resonates with her.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Yeah, because I've drug her on some missions. Let's go
to this bookstore and I'll be turned up, but see
be with.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
It, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Do you feel like trauma is the root of all
hidden prisons?
Speaker 5 (35:13):
I think trauma is one of the core anchoring pieces
of the hidden prisons. You know, a lot of how
we see our lives has been shaped by our childhood,
and there's like big trauma and small trauma, right, But
I think it's it's really shaped by just negative experiences,
because some don't quite rise to the level of trauma,
(35:34):
but they do rise to the level of like making
you think about something in a way that's unpleasant. And
I think that's where a lot of the negative self
talught comes from. It's like, you know, you're in environments
might it's like, oh, you can't accomplish that, and now
you've adopted that's not necessarily Trauma's just negative input, but
now it has you questioning whether you can accomplish a
thing or not, right, And so I think there's like
(35:57):
the kind of big trauma, then they're like this kind
of small negative inputs.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
How do we use your new book, How to Be Free,
to shift from telling young people, especially young brothers, to
do better to actually creating healing spaces that deal with
that trump.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
That's a great question. I think we saw a lot
of that yesterday when we was at Riker. So one
of the things that I've done with this book is
I started the largest book club in prisons.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
So we gave the book away to.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Thirteen hundred prisons, to about a million people who are
incarcerated because I want to make sure that they had
access to this information and this framework so that they
can live the most free life possible, even though their
circumstances doesn't look look free. And I think what we
do is we start study groups, you know, we start
to really have these deep conversations, and like, it was
mind blowing to see how the people who are incarcerated
(36:49):
leaned into this book. Specifically, they had questions, they had thoughts,
they had all these things because we did create a
real framework within the book for them to kind of,
you know, guide the conversation. And it was amazing, you
know what I'm saying, to really see how that played out.
And I would love to do that out here where
we started to connect the dots, you know, especially in
our culture where it's like, you know, I'm I'm it's
(37:11):
wild sometime when I think about wrapping all the things
that they're rapping about it, I'm like, I really lived
that life, and but I may not be the person
that they see as being accessible because I'm not over
indexing on my past. I'm like, listen, I'm living a
whole different life and I want to bring you to
this part of it, not that old life, you.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
But I think this is a book opportunity that you know,
I would love to see more brothers and sisters in
the culture, like starting study groups and think tanks around
this framework, because it really is one of those problems
and we don't have nothing like it in our culture, right.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Like you know, when I was when I was set
out to write this.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
Particular book, I really was like, Man, I thought about
the books that helped me in my life while I
was incarcerated as a man, think of the secret man
starts with meaning all these books, and I didn't see
any book that was authored by somebody who really had
lived and experience that I had lived, and so I
was like, Oh, it's up to me to create that.
And that's how we ended up with this book. And
(38:08):
shout out to my brother being Horowitz, who actually encouraged
me to write a lesson book which was really powerful
and impactful.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Is a desire to be accepted a hidden prison?
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Oh? Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I think it's one of the one of the biggest
hidden prisons is that we're uh and it's really who
are you trying to be accepted by? And what do
you think that they have that you don't have inside yourself.
And I think when you when you begin to strengthen
your sense of who you are as a human being,
then you are draw to you what you need. But
you won't go out seeking acceptance from any and everybody.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
The book is out.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Right now, and then you invite me to write is
yesterday man Shack was clinding me because I take.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
He took a security personnel in an environment eight thousand, Yo.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
It was wid I don't practice.
Speaker 6 (39:00):
It was that weird, like I was.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
I was laughing the whole way as I was thinking
about what is going to happen when it's security walk
in and it's like literally hundreds of officers that are armed.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
And I'm like, Charlamne, you rolling in here with me? Man?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I didn't even think about it.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You good in any hood, any prison. When you rolling
with me.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I understand that I didn't the practice bad habits. You
know what I'm saying the movie that's right, that's right,
But that was stupid. And then just make took his
fire when he made him saying and you know he used.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
To be a cop. So I was like, yo, you
ever wanted to be a CEO Rikers he was.
Speaker 6 (39:32):
Like, Jesus, he's also doing your wealth ex bo Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
No, not this year. I'm a missing man.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
That's I've done it a couple of years and man,
it's one of the best best experience. I really encourage
everybody to go check it out, and we're gonna do
one on Rikers Island.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Gonna make that happen.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
But you know, I'm glad you did bring that up though,
because even though Shak is not doing it this year,
the years he's done it, it was such an important
It was so important to have you there as well
as Wallow because to your point, every year that we
did it, there was always people there who had either
just got out of prison or got people who are
in prison right now and we don't understand how that
(40:15):
impacts their mental especially brothers that just came home. It's
still institutionalized. And they were people like literally saying, y'all
need to add this component to the mental wealth x boo,
because those are the people that are dealing with it.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Absolutely absolutely, and I'll definitely be there next year. I'm
so sad to be missing this one, but I'm super
excited to be out on tour with the book and
celebrating man, this book number three. Man, So it's actually surreal,
you know, and you know you've written books. You know
how hard it is to get a book, book up,
book out in the world.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
So a few weeks ago, man, so y'all holding hands,
you have your hand braided all nights and beat back.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Man.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
You know you know the wild thing about about the
relationship with Oprahs. We're generally friends, man. And like when
I when I first wrote my book, I don't know
if I told you the story, but I wrote my
first book in solitary and I was like, Yo, anybody
want to read this book? And the guy was like, man,
this ain't over. Don't nobody want to read that ship?
And I was like, damn. I was like that was cold.
But then I wrote it down as a goal. Opened
(41:16):
and read three of my books and invited me to
her home multiple times.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
And said that you were her greatest interview ever. Imagine
open saying that about you, just my greatest interview ever.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Yeah. Yeah, And then we became real friends.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Man.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
So that's that's my girl.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And I shout her out all the time and she
always reaches out. She I'm sorry, She'll be like congraands
on pub day, Shaka. You know, so she's genuinely she's
who she said she.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Is, like, she didn't cook.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
We didn't know tequila that time we was working. It
was it was it was great.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
She likes No.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
She actually sent me a few bottles though that she
she she uped my game on.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
The tequilas years ago. She asked me what my favorite was.
I told her.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
She was like, let me send you, let me send
you something, and she sent me three bottles with my name.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Absolutely and I drunk all three of them. Jesus all right.
Not at the same time, I figured that we'll pick up.
Speaker 6 (42:13):
The book How to Be Free Shock.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Proving God to Escaping life' hitting prisoners. Don't forget that part.
Speaker 5 (42:18):
That's everybody got a hid in prison. For every hidden prison,
there is a door, and this book is the key.
Speaker 6 (42:23):
It's the breakfast club.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Good morning every day, up weak, click your ass up,
the breakfast club.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
You don't finish for y'all done
Don't every day a week ago clicks up the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all done morning.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Everybody is dj en Vy Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the gud
We are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest
in the building. Yes, indeed, Shakas and welcome back, Brotherling.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Thank y'all so much for having
me back. Man.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Shaka just put out an amazing new body of work, Man,
a new book, How to Be Free, a proving guid
escaping life's hidden prisons.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Man, what is a hidden prison?
Speaker 5 (00:31):
It's the things that you don't see that standing away
of you living the best life for yourself.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
Right.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
So, when I've thought about this, this big idea and
created this kind of blueprint to help people live the
life that they're fully capable of, the fully deserving of,
I recognize that we all had these hidden prisons, you know,
self doubt, negative self talk. You know, that's one of
the big things that kind of standing away. But there's
also things like anger, grief, shame, things from our childhood
(00:57):
that really doesn't allow us to show up fully authentically
in our full potential.
Speaker 6 (01:03):
You know, I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I know you got the book out, but there's a
lot that's been going on, and I figured you would
be the right person to ask some questions about so
everything going on in Atlanta.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
It seems like people, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Say, glorify the street, right, glorify things that happen in
the street. And I feel like sometimes people don't know
how to get out of it. Right, you see what
happened to Atlanta. Everybody's a niche, this person's a rat.
When do you get to an age or what do
you tell those young as it says, hey, it's not
worth it.
Speaker 6 (01:30):
We see what's happening. But it seems like they don't
learn their lessons.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So what do you tell one of those little young
those little young brothers out there.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Because that's a prison that's not hidden.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
But I think one of the things with our culture,
specifically like hip hop culture, is we've kind of intermingled
the idea that these guys are really street guys and
really they artists. They're kids who are trying to figure
out how to make money using the talent but also
using the stories from a background that society has sold
us on as being like the way to show up
in world, right, like the only way we can make it.
(02:02):
And what I tell the young people is that it's
made way more money in legitimate enterprise. And like I
was pretty decent with street sales, but I can tell
you make way more money in legitimate enterprise. And the
accessibility to it now is something we see. I mean,
like you can take a phone and build a whole career, right,
And so I think we have to separate like what's
(02:23):
really the streets from like what's music culture and these
kids pretending to be street guys, because it's kind of
ridiculous if you think about it. If you're making all
this money in music, then why are you going backwards?
Because it's not many guys that's really financially successful coming
for the streets, Like and I mean, you talk to
any of the guys that actually are you know, recognized
(02:44):
from being in that environment, they tell you most guys
don't make real money in the streets. Most guys are
basically minimum wage.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
You know, workers.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
So if you're making all this legitimate money in music,
why would you kind of try to intermingle that with
this identity that's not real?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Man?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
That's a great point and what do you say to
people who act like the screeches in industry?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And what I mean by that is.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You'll have folks that will say things to you like, well,
who determines what's legal and illegal?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Or who determines what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Because they'll say, there's people out here that make money
selling alcohol.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
There's people that out.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Here that's making money selling marijuana. Now I'm like, that's
not the same, Like the screech is not a real industry.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, no, I mean it's a kind of dispersed industry. Right,
It's like anything goes, but you when you look at
how you know, for example, the marijuana industry, right, how
that's evolved to become legitimate enterprise. Right, Like that's where
we should be, folks, And how do we change laws
and policies to work for our advantage insteady being victimized
(03:43):
by these policies and then somebody else reaps all the benefits.
And so you know, I'm always telling telling you know,
the young people that I mentor is really think about
how do you get ownership and whatever it is you're
interested in. Like that's I've been in Silicon Valley for
three years, which actually is one of the inspirations for
right now this book, because I work with people that's
like ultra wealthy, and yet I see them have kind
(04:06):
of like some of the same prisons that you know,
I see.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
People in a neighborhood.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I've seen people who is actually in real prison have
that same kind of mental blocks that doesn't allow them
to show up authentically. Even though it looks like they
got all the travelers of success, they're still not happy
and fulfilled. So that's to me, it's more like, how
are you getting equity, but also how are you creating
like the mental equity to really live a life that you.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Want to live.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I got one more question with that. Is there a
cold when it comes to the street in your opinion,
But we.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
Had a conversation about cold. Is there a cold? Is
there a cold that you're supposed to follow or is
it just.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Is it legal activity, you know, I mean, or is
there something that guidelines that should be followed.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
I mean, I grew up in the era of like
crack cocaine, so I can't speak to with there's codes.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Now.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
I haven't been in the streets in like thirty some years,
and I'm fifty three years old.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Man, successful business man.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
I'm an entrepreneur, married, I got a kid, I got investments.
But I do you know, I mean, I still do
a lot of work with with people in prison and
in the neighborhoods, and you know, I kind of know that.
You know, it's the codes are really your personal values, right,
everybody can say that they're real and to them handcuffs
going up to you in that terrogation room, and you're
(05:16):
really facing a life sentence. And that's what that's what
we don't talk about, is how many different ways you
can end up serving life without actually even really doing
anything meaningful, just by associations, right, you know, when you're
talking about those rico charges, a lot of these guys
not making real money. They just around and then you
get swooped up and the way the farest players, they
(05:37):
gonna load up everything they could charge you with and
then most likely you'll plead out, which is like ninety
five percent of people do.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
But yeah, I don't.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
I stay out the streets and I'm out here just
being a grown mary man.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
No, we try to tell the youngers that to stay
out the streets absolutely in a minute, it ain't worth it,
and any little bit of money you were gonna make,
or any little bit of clouds that you're gonna make,
ain't like worth the ten life sentences, two lifesent This
is a one life sentence, you know.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
I mean, it ain't worth missing your family, life, your kids.
It ain't worth it.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Man.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
You know, the nineteen years in prison that I serve,
I've watched life go by. You know, I came home,
my younger siblings were adults. My nephews and nieces didn't
even know me, you know, they had to get to
know me. And so you can't you can't replace those years.
You know, there's nothing you can do to get that
time back. And this is what I can tell you
for sure about about prison. Life is the toughest break
(06:27):
under those circumstances. Everybody when they when they hit that
pillar at night, they're wishing that they would have made
different life choices, you know what I mean. So I
wouldn't wish that on anybody, and I try to discourage guys.
I think one of the things I will say that
I'm proud of that I'm starting to see in our
culture it's more interest being you know, placed on actually
the legitimate financial investments you know, I think about what
(06:50):
the young brother's doing on your leisure. You know, I
think about Wallow and some of the brothers I've been
able to interact with, and I'm like, Yo, that's that's
a move right there, because it's still cool at the
end of the day. If it's really about making money.
Investments is a way to make make a lot of money,
you know, And that's the freedom that I even talk
about in the book.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
It's like financial freedom.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
You know, how are you taking advantage of these opportunities
that's really right in front of you? And you know,
my philosophy is simple. I came from nineteen years in prison,
seven years in solitary confinement, to becoming really, really successful,
not only as an author but also as an investor.
So my philosophy is like, if I can do it
coming from those circumstances, what excuse you got?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (07:31):
So I tell my mentees, you got to take every
excuse off the table because I've done all the hard
work for you. And that's you know, That's what I've
done in this book is like, here's a framework and
a blueprint for you to literally live the freeest life possible.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
One of the biggest hitting prisoners I see is people,
you know, being defined by their past mistakes, are not
knowing how to let go of their past mistakes. So
how do you keep from being defined by your past
mistakes when the system is sometimes even your own people
want to keep you stuck there?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Man, I stay out the comments. It's brutal out there. Man.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
No, but but but really it's a lot of self
affirming care right. It's like negative self talk is one
of the biggest self imposed prisons I've found where even
successful people are doubting themselves or you know, dealing with
imposter syndrome, like why am I in this room?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Do I really belong in this room?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
And so for me, you know, the way that I've
kind of mapped my life out is really through writing
it down Like journalists, one of the greatest hacks in
life is like when you see it, you can be
super clear on Hey, here's who I actually am, not
who they say I am. I get judged all the time,
like why are you able to do some of these things?
You know, you went to pro went to prison for
a homicide. You know, it's one of the most regrettable
(08:43):
acts in my life, and It's something I could never undo,
which is why I'm so conscious about talking to the
young guys about the decisions that they make. And I've
also lived fifteen years of freedom where I've been able
to create, you know, a lot of value for community
that I mean, I've invested in the community in the
real way, and so I've done way more good than
(09:04):
I've done bad. But the reality is people are going
to bring that up. You know, they're gonna judge you
for that. And so that's why that self talk is
so important, and journaling and really writing it down and
getting super clear about who you are really is what
makes the world of difference.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Let me ask you a questions. What's free to you?
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And the reason I asked that is some people look
at free as financial freedom. One of my biggest things
for myself was making sure my kids were free. And
when I mean free, I mean this life is short.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Try to set them up.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Where they can do what they want to do just
to be happy. Right, if my daughter wanted to do
here for the rest of my life, what ever made
her happy? It ain't about the mansions, the cause and
all that that we think that some people idolize.
Speaker 6 (09:43):
Some people don't. But what's free to you? Because I
always felt just living a free life and being happy
is free to me.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Yes, it's really having complete agency and autonomy over my
time and how I spend it and who I spend
it with, and being able to wake up and every
day and say that I'm intentional about the where I
live my life, that I'm unburding by anything that does
not coincide with my core values.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
And so you know, I'm an artist, so I want
to wake up and be able to create, you know,
I want to be able to spend time with people
that I actually value and care about in a meaningful way.
And like being able to create space for myself and
create a lifestyle that really allows me to have that agency.
That's like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
But then I you know, I drilled down into like
what is financial freedom? You know, that's really recognizing that
my money actually works for me instead of me working
for money. What does freedom look like with love?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Right?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Is being able to show up authentically with my family,
being vulnerable, being open, you know, not playing this kind
of put this mask on as a dad or as
a husband, and being able to show up in that
way man, it's the most incredible sense of freedom. And
then you know the socially, you know, one of the
things that this will be the first place that I
shared this on because it was share. Recently, Oprah talked
(10:56):
about me putting in for my partner and she asked
me what would mean if I got my partner, and
I said, it the mean that I'm you know, now
I'm back included in the tribe, because there are barriers
when you have a felony on your life, you know,
and it's been you know, you know, I caught this
felony in nineteen ninety one and it still impacts my life,
my wife's life, my son's life, and unfortunately, we just
(11:18):
learned that they didn't give me that pardon, and so
I had to reimagine, like what this freedom looked like
to be unburdened by a system. And really what it
looks like to me is I was a presidential party. Well,
it wouldn't have been president and governor because I was.
My case was state so Whittmer in Michigan, and they
shot it down at the fifteen years and I'm talking
(11:40):
about come on, yeah, what I've received in fifteen years
is like unparalleled for somebody who was formally incarcerated. But
it was one of those moments, right, Well, I had
to go back to my own book, the own my
own framework of like, Okay, how do you navigate that disappointment,
you know, without it spiraling? Right, Because it's infuriating when
(12:01):
you think about, I've done all this work in the
world and I'm still told that it's not enough, you
know what I mean, how does.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
That make you feel?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Because you you know, not that it's it's you know
that you deserve it or you earn it, but you
did so much for your city, right, You've changed, You've
talked about your change, you accepted what happened, like you've
been a man and said, you know, this is what
it was.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
But you've made it your life.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
To make sure that you've changed and you give back
and that for them to turn you down, what does
that do to you?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah? I mean it was it was a moment.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Man.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
You know.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
I remember my wife and I we were you know,
she had brought the mail in and she handed me
the mail and you know, we both kind of like excited,
like all right, well what's going to happen?
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Right? And I open up and it was just like
the way they shot me down.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
It wasn't even no clarity as to why, right, it
was just like, you've been denied reapplying two years. And
in my man, I'm like, Okay, what do I What
do I accomplish in two years that I haven't accomplished
in fifteen?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right? And so it's that thing of like that.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
That reminder that comes back over and over You're not
worthy to be fully included. And so what I what
I what I did is I actually literally went to
the playbook that I've outlined in How to Be Free,
and I went back in our journal. I was like,
how do I really feel about this? What does this
really mean for my life? And what is my plan
moving forward? Because initially I was like, man, I'm not
(13:20):
a plan back in two years? Like why would I?
Why would I do that? I've accomplished so much. I mean,
I'm been Grammy nominated album with NAS, Emmy winning film
with Able to Verney, New York Times Bestseller fellow at
m I T Fellow at Virginia Tech Kellogg Like you name.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
It your community work, community work, you know what I'm saying.
And so I'm like, what more? What more? Do they
want from me?
Speaker 5 (13:44):
And it was like through that process of writeing and down,
it was like, you know, at the end of the day,
I'm gonna show up in the spirit of gratitude for
all of it.
Speaker 6 (13:52):
Have you talked to the government.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Have y'all spoke at all?
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I've never spoke to the governor because you go, it
goes through a whole parole, board, part and board. I
spoke to the lieutenant government. I actually know lieutenant governor.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
And then he running and he's running for governor.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
He's probably running for governor.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
So yeah, Gilgris, Yeah, and so you know, it's it's
it's one of those things where you just kind of
go back to like what is my role in this right?
And for me, it's coming back to a spirit of gratitude.
My life is blessed. I'm blessed. Even the things that
challenged me betters me. And so that's how I so
it's approach it.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You know, we pay attention to stuff like that Governor
Shapiro's with Governor joshapairoll he pardon Wallow, Yeah, you know
in Pennsylvania. So you know, Governor, your women, I hope
you know, attention to stuff.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Like that that's real.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You know one of the other hidden prisons man that well,
I want to ask you about hitting prisons. Can freedom
be obtained if you are physically free, but you're still
battling things within your stuff? That's why I love that
you did this guide to being a hitten prison, because
I wonder that when you're you're out physically, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Can it truly be attained if you still battling things
within here?
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Here's one of the things that I shared in the
book that I think blew people mind is that I
realized I was incarcerated before I was having a prison
cell like. Mentally, I brought into a narrative that my
life can only have two outcomes dead or on prison
before twenty one.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And I ended up living that narrative.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
But I was also free before they ever let me out,
because I took the time to really start to do
the hard work right of asking that question, how did
I end up here?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Right? Like?
Speaker 5 (15:22):
How did I end up serving out my most promising
years in a sale Like? I wanted to be a
doctor and an artist and I ended up getting caught
up in the street coach when I was fourteen years
old and dealt with all the things that came with that.
And so when I was actually in physical prison, I
started to kind of write my way out, journaling I
got free before they ever let me out. And so
(15:43):
the reason I wrote this book is working in Silicon
Valley and working in the community, I started to see
a consistent trend of people really who were like stuck.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
You know. Sometime it was grief.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Sometimes they couldn't get over the loss of a job,
the loss of a loved one.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Sometimes it was shame.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
You know, Silicon Valley is a very aggressive environment, right,
It's like it's hard. You got to be a real
hustler to survive in that environment. And I would see
people just get broken from being shamed when they didn't
execute on the project. And so I started to see
these consistent patterns anger, the inability to forgive, which is
something that I think really is a hidden prison for
(16:24):
a lot of people, where you get stuck and this
thing of like I'm going to hold on to like
not forgiveness person. Meanwhile that person out somewhere frolicking, and
you get up upset every time you think of it,
and you just can't move on with your life. And
then there's also like these well intended prisons, right, helicopter parenting.
Have you see that parent who's just like, I'm gonna
do all the things for my child. I'm a Hoffer
(16:45):
over room. And then your child doesn't build up resilience,
They don't build up any agency, they don't build up
any capabilities.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
And even in love life, right, it's like we broke up,
but we're going to remain friends. And then you wonder
why you can never find a husband or a wife
because you're trapped in these old narratives. And so it's
a lot of people that's out here that's stuck in
the old story.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Talk about the forgiveness freedom, right, that was a tough
one for me for a long time.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Right, I held things right?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, and you know I was.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I was talking to somebody recently, and then I didn't
hold them for forgiveness or non forgiveness. I held them
for revenge, right, because I felt like I needed that
look back.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
I mean I need that for two right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So that's one of the most difficult for people. So,
so break that down. As far as the forgiveness freedom.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
That's a great one.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
So interesting enough, a couple of years ago I got
a letter from the guy who shot me when I
was seventeen years old. This exchanged our beef. It was,
you know, thirty seconds right put up on the block.
We had words exchange.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
He shot me.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
I never saw this guy's face, shot me three times.
I get this letter and he's like, yo, I'm the
guy who shot you. I apologized at the time. He's
still me in prison right now. I got mad respecting there.
You know what I'm saying, Like I can literally call
and shoot somebody. Somebody on their books, take care of dude.
I felt that old anger come up for hot second,
(18:09):
for a hot second, and I literally said, well, what
do you preach? You preach that people are worthy of
second chances, Like you got to be a man of
your word. You gotta honor that right. And so I
had to sit with that, and I realized that the
anger was rooted and I never saw.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
This guy's face. So I looked him up on the.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Computer, saw his face, and I made peace with that,
and I started writing him a letter. And then I
was like, you know what, I don't owe him that
I can forget his brother moved on. But instead I
actually wrote a letter to my mother because we were
in a space of healing and I was getting to
a space of realizing I thought I had forgiven her,
but I was holding on to something, and so that
(18:47):
letter allowed me to release that and get to a
space where Man, my mother and our relationship has evolved
to the point where I feel like the parent, you
know what I'm saying, and trying to protect the little
girl that got hurt.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
That turned her into a hurt woman and a hurt mother.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
And that was the beauty of forgiveness, is like I
forget this guy. I had to let it go. I
could have, you know, been back in that old energy.
And I'm like, man, that don't feel good in my spirit,
you know what I mean, Because I've said to people
like you aren't your worst moment. And like that guy,
whatever moment he was in when he shot me, I
was in a similar moment when I shot somebody else.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
But would you feel different if he didn't apologize, If
he didn't come out and say I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Would you.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Feel differently and not say, you know what, I needed
that apology, you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (19:39):
Would it make you feel different?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Would you still forgive the same way if he didn't
apologize and you found out who it was, Yeah, I would.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Because I have the wisdom how to understand that oftentimes
people are operating out of a spirit or hope that
has nothing to.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Do with me. Oo you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Yeah, I mean like a lot of times we're holding
on to things with people that we aren't even really
thinking about how did they arrive at that right? Like
you know I talk about in the book, my brother
was murdered in July twenty twenty one, and I remember
sitting in my family's living room and I'm you know,
I'm coming home. I'm like, let me come home and help,
but my brother let me be a support for my dad,
(20:16):
my mom. And then I had this moment where I
was watching my step mom and she's heartbroken. It's her
baby boy that's been murdered. And I felt guilty, you
know what I mean. So I was caught between this
world of trying to grieve for my brother, guilty because
I made somebody else family feel like that, you know
what I mean. And so I was sitting there like,
what's stuck with this energy? And so when I look
(20:40):
at somebody who's done something that's harmful, like I can't
like just just them solely based on that without looking within.
And when I look within, I realized that the decision
I made as a nineteen year old kid came from
a space of hurt, PTSD, all the things. So whether
he would apologize or not, I have to realize that
that he was probably similar, you know, he probably came
(21:03):
through gun trauma and gun violence and there was something
inside him that was broken, you know what I mean,
that had nothing to do with me. That's how me
and my mother was able to hear my mother she
started to open up to me man about the things
that happened in her life, and it all made sense.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
You understood, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
I understood that she was, you know, sexually assaulted as
a kid, she was abused as a teenager, you know
what I mean. And so like once I recognize that,
I have to see that in anybody that I have
conflict with, that something inside of them is dictating the
behavior in the same way that it happened with me,
you know what I mean. So that's how I get
(21:39):
to that deep forgiveness. And that's one of the things
about the book that you as you begin to read
through it, not only are you getting these powerful stories,
but you're really getting like, here's a how to unlock
that door and let yourself out, because when you don't forgive,
the other person isn't suffering like you're You're trapped in
that cage, right, And so I wanted to make sure
that people had the keys let themselves out.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You have a shocked by the amount of people that
want to keep you in that box. That that that
box of oh yeah, he murdered somebody when h nineteen
years old, because I saw the comments on Joe Rogan.
But then on the flip side, yo, you your your
redeeming quality was that moment. It was the fact you
went to prison. I was at Rikers with you. Yes,
(22:22):
I said, the connection that you have, you know, with
these inmates. You tell that story and they automatic you
can you can see them like, oh I can relate
to what that brother went through, Like they look at
you as a beacon of hope. You know, somebody who
paid it to society and made it. So you have
a shock how people want to keep you in that box.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
I'm never really shocked because I know that oftentimes people
are operating out of their own hurt, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (22:43):
And like they're hot. They are.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
We live in a snap judgment society, like people can
look at you and make a decision and a split
second without actually really getting to know you. You know,
That's one of the things I was super happy when
we went into Rikers Island is the work that you're
doing in the world. I think it's some of the
most incredile but meaningful work ever. You know, this mental
health piece is so important to our culture, and prison
(23:06):
is where it's really needed at.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
And for you to be able to bear witness to
that in that testimony, you see that people aren't in
there like yo, let me get out and wild out.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
They're really looking for help and they're really hurt.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
And so you know that balances out for me, you
know what I mean, to go in there man and
pour into people and like those are my people, that's
my tribe, you know what I'm saying. But to go
in there and the pouring to them and had them
pour into me, like that balances out all the negativity,
you know what I mean, and what I always think
about you know, I'm thinking about them people in the comments.
You know, I sometimes I'm kind of petty in my thoughts.
(23:40):
You know what I'm saying, I'm like, here, this person
is trying to troll me, and I might have just
flew in on a PJ. I'm good, you know what
I'm saying, Like I'm great, man. My wife might have
just went out and had an amazing dinner. My son might
have accomplished something brilliant, Like life is good, and like
that's where I think sometimes we get lost at especially
with like you know, all the digital content is we
(24:02):
forget we're living a real life. We're really present in
the moment. And again that's another practice that I have.
It's mindfulness. It's like it doesn't mean that you don't
hear the things. I just bring myself back to my
real moments. Where am I really at in life? You
know what I mean? Am I stuck in nineteen ninety
one because that's where they want to be?
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Or am I actually present? You know? Am I out
here pruning my plants? You know what I'm saying, I'm.
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Out here you know, doing whatever it is at home
that brings me joy?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
You know?
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Am I sitting out and the grives just reading the
book and enjoying life while these people are miserable, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
So I don't give too much, but you do.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
You do understand people's mindsets sometimes, right. I remember the
first time when I heard the story, and I remember
the first time you came on the breakfast club reading
the comments, and the first thing people would say was, well,
why him?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Right, he just did this?
Speaker 6 (24:50):
Why is he on Oprah? Why is he on a
breakfast club? Like this is not fair because people are
so used to people doing things and not changing.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
They see, like you said, they see the negatives things,
but they don't see the other side of it, right,
And sometimes I feel like, and this is why sometimes
I have a problem with Sometimes people are the church
that do foul stuff or they talk about the stuff
that they shouldn't do, and then you see them doing
the thing like we're not all human, like we all
don't make mistakes, right. But it's always I always says
apology is fine, but it's the change behavior that shows everything. Absolutely,
(25:20):
And we've seen your journey from that change behavior. So
I'm sure you understand why people's first knowledge of first
mind frame is this, that and the other.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Right you have to yeah, no, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
And I think about how we arrive at our conclusions
right as we see the end product. So they see
me here, you know, they don't see the work that
it took for me to get here.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
They see me on Oprah, and I realized I came home.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I was literally hustling books out of the trunk of
my car like a lot of people be like they
got it out the mud. Me and my brother we
always talk about we got it from beneath the mud.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
I used to set up tables and gentlemen's clubs. You
know what I'm saying to be like yo by these books, right,
And I've got rejected so many times. I mean I've
tried to get employment, felly came up, like you name
a rejection.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
I's got it.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Right, And so they don't see that part of the
of the journey. But also understand, right, people feel like,
you know, you you've done something bad in life. You
don't deserve any good to happen to you, you know,
but I hate you for that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah it's hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
You know, I'm not gonna name names, but we've got
rappers who've done that and rap about it, and yeah,
haven't shown any.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Change made at all. They still get welcomed everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yeah, I celebrated absolutely, And I think that's one of
the things in our culture, like we pick and choose
what we what we celebrate, and would always just try
to tell people is like, understand, as long as you
wake up breathing, you're on a journey, you know what
I mean, And where you start doesn't mean it's where
you have to end. That's That's the amazing thing that
you know people will really get out of the book
(26:49):
is that Look, I started, you know, in the in
the worst of environments, with the worst of circumstances, and
mentally I began to break free from that and start
to think about what is what is life possible abilities?
Like I was telling you know, the brothers and sisters
in prison yesterday, I wrote down when I was in
solitary confact I didn't even know if I was getting
out of prison. I was like, but if I ever
(27:09):
get out, here's all the things that I want to
manifest in my life. And I still had those journals
right now in my garage, and I wrote down everything
that I wanted accomplish, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
And so I did that because life really.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Is a journey and as long as you wake up breathing,
you got an opportunity, and it's really up to you
to seize that opportunity. And so that's what I've done.
I've seized the opportunity. And I just keep growing and
keep building, and keep evolving and keep being just curious
about life.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
One of the things that kept coming up yesterday even
at Rikers was the topic of grief. Yeah, and man,
grief is one of those hidden prisons that it's almost like,
you know, you're get in trouble back in.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The day, you end up doing a weekend. You had
a good week, you that work, but.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Getting locked up for the weekend, you do some of
those guys that had to go in on the weekend, Right,
That's what it feels like with grief.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So how do you get out of that hidden prison
of grief?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, that's that's that's when I actually start
with grief because I think it's the toughest prison for
anybody to get out, because can't nobody gets come to
you to be like charlamagn't stop grieving, Like that'll be
mean or cruel, right, and all grief isn't the same, right, Like,
you know, when I think about my brother's death. I
think about that diffinitely from my grandmother who just got
older and she passed and she transitioned sad miss Granny
(28:26):
missed the things.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
My brother that was traumatic.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
You know what I mean, sonstandable, It's more understandable, right,
And so those different type of grief. You can go
back to work after two weeks after you know, grandma passed.
Somebody in your family is murdered or tragically lost, that's.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
More difficult, right.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
What I what I arrived at for myself is gratitude.
You know, how do I How am I thankful for
the time that I spent with my brother? How am
I thankful for my brother's name is Shara is always
want to shout him out's name?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Is?
Speaker 5 (28:55):
How do I honor what he meant to our family?
You know, my siblings and and and that's what allows
me to heal.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
But here's the thing, like in the book.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Even the way that we designed the book, there's a
door in this part where it's about digging deeper. And
the reason I created the open door is because sometimes
you go in and out of these things. If you
live life long enough, you're gonna grieve more than once right,
And it's not always death. Sometimes it's an employment loss,
it's a love loss, it's losing a friend, friendships to end.
And to me, it's always about gratitude. You know what
(29:27):
am I thankful for in this experience? And it doesn't
take away like the longing for those moments or missing
my brother. It just allows me to reframe that his
life wasn't the moment it ended. It was all of
the things that came before that. And I got a
chance to appreciate that and spend time with him, and
you know, and and and love. Well, this was my
(29:48):
only little brother, you know, this my baby brother, and
and all the time we got a chance to share.
You know, I wanted to be able to honor that,
you know, through a spirit of gratitude.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
And so yeah, you talk about that in the book.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So it's like, whenever that grief comes up, just just
be grateful for the time you did spend.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, Like what what part of that?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
You know?
Speaker 5 (30:08):
I go back to like my brother, Like I have
a younger sister named Bootsie and her and she's the
baby girl.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
He was the baby boy.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
And they have a special relationship, right, they talk smack
to each other all the time. So on those tough
tough days, I think about the way that them too
used to joke, you know what I mean, and that
brings me my spirit a sense of peace, you know,
And that's and that's you know. In the book, also
talk about we had this beautiful puppy that you know,
a negligent trainer left the gate open and got ran over,
(30:37):
you know, and it was like it was heartbreaking, you know.
And I also talk about my younger son, Say who
being diagnosed with type one diabetes and seeing his young
life changed.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
So there's that type of grief.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Right and like now we have to manage and navigate
life through that lens, which is you know, it's wild
as a parent, you know, because you think about your
kid accomplished something. The first thing you do, let's go
grab ice cream, you know. So we had to start
thinking differently about all these moments, but again just leaning
into gratitude that he's the type of kid that's like
(31:08):
I'm gonna I'm going to fight this thing and I'm
going to stand up you know, to my own body,
and like that watching him, that gives me a sense
of like, man, I'm thankful that we've embode in his
spirit so that he can, you know, he can rise
to the casion.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
In part three of the book, you talk about embracing
freedom and down the separate chapters. I'm just gonna name
all the chapters, but I want you to tell me
which one of those is the most important for finding
and embracing freedom.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
So you have hope and composure.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you have love, you have joy, you have success,
you have facing down fear, becoming unstoppable, finding true freedom?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Which one of those is most important?
Speaker 4 (31:46):
All of them? Trying to man, you gotta read all,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
But I would say the thing that I found the
most interesting was was joy, especially like as a as
a man. You know, we don't we don't often give
ourselves from missing to fully give in to the idea
that we can't experience joy and happiness and that it
doesn't make you sow for a week or a lame
or whatever. That it's actually dope and amazing, you know.
(32:11):
And so I think joy really kind of undergirds like
what it means to love, you know, to you know,
one of the things that is great to me is
like my son and my wife, they have similar energy.
They're like excitable and like you know, they get turned
up like you know, for anything, and I always watch
that and it's just like, man, that's an amazing orientation
(32:33):
around life, you know, And even though I don't have
that type of energy, Like my mindset is more like
how do I show up in joy with them? And
then how I show up and joy in my own life.
And it was a difficult thing I didn't even realize,
Like my reaction to things that are joyful was initially resistance.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
You know.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
I got invited on an incredible trip to go to
Italy yacht for like thirteen days, and my instinct was
like figuring out ways why I shouldn't go on this trip.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
And that's when I realized it.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Was attached to something deeper, this this inability to really
just give myself permission to let go. And once I
identified that, I was like, oh, I'm not standing my
own way anymore. I'm showing up you name, you name.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The same thing.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
I'm going to it, you know what I'm saying, Uh,
And I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna be president and
like that to me is like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, I was glad you used that term of joy
because I've been saying in this era that we're in
right now, black people have to create safe spaces for
us to just simply experience.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Jo Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, because that's that's the thing. Like
so much of like where we're at coachally, we're in
survival mode, you know, and once you step out of
survival and getting the thriving, you realize that that joy
is like one of the greatest components of what it
means to live a life that where you're thriving at
When you're in that survival mode, it's hard to appreciate anything,
(33:57):
you know what I mean. It's like we we celebrate,
but are we fully present in that celebration, you know.
And that's what I really wanted to offers, like here's
how you like not only not only experienced joy, but
be a joy hunter, you know. So I have this
part in the book where I talk about how do
you seek it out?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
How do you go and find it?
Speaker 5 (34:14):
How do you go in and experience and be curious
about life in such a way where you're like, oh,
that actually was joyful?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
So when I'm when I'm out different cities, different times,
I'm like, what would bring me joy in terms of experience,
Like my one of my favorite things is I like
to collect first edition paperback books written by block authors.
So when I go into a city, I'm like, where's
the used bookstore at? And I'm telling you, like I
be hyped up, like I'm about to go get the
(34:41):
latest mixtape. You know what I'm saying, because that brings
me joy, that sense of fulfillment of like seeing these
pages that somebody has written.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
I mean, I'm a.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Writer, so that that's like my joy hunting. I'm like
out on a mission.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
You know, it's wild because as you're saying that, I'm
watching your wife smile and so like she felt, he
feels she knows the joy you feel from that, and
it resonates with her.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Yeah, because I've drug her on some missions. Let's go
to this bookstore and I'll be turned up, but see
be with.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
It, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Do you feel like trauma is the root of all
hidden prisons?
Speaker 5 (35:13):
I think trauma is one of the core anchoring pieces
of the hidden prisons. You know, a lot of how
we see our lives has been shaped by our childhood,
and there's like big trauma and small trauma, right, But
I think it's it's really shaped by just negative experiences,
because some don't quite rise to the level of trauma,
(35:34):
but they do rise to the level of like making
you think about something in a way that's unpleasant. And
I think that's where a lot of the negative self
talught comes from. It's like, you know, you're in environments
might it's like, oh, you can't accomplish that, and now
you've adopted that's not necessarily Trauma's just negative input, but
now it has you questioning whether you can accomplish a
thing or not, right, And so I think there's like
(35:57):
the kind of big trauma, then they're like this kind
of small negative inputs.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
How do we use your new book, How to Be Free,
to shift from telling young people, especially young brothers, to
do better to actually creating healing spaces that deal with
that trump.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
That's a great question. I think we saw a lot
of that yesterday when we was at Riker. So one
of the things that I've done with this book is
I started the largest book club in prisons.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
So we gave the book away to.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Thirteen hundred prisons, to about a million people who are
incarcerated because I want to make sure that they had
access to this information and this framework so that they
can live the most free life possible, even though their
circumstances doesn't look look free. And I think what we
do is we start study groups, you know, we start
to really have these deep conversations, and like, it was
mind blowing to see how the people who are incarcerated
(36:49):
leaned into this book. Specifically, they had questions, they had thoughts,
they had all these things because we did create a
real framework within the book for them to kind of,
you know, guide the conversation. And it was amazing, you
know what I'm saying, to really see how that played out.
And I would love to do that out here where
we started to connect the dots, you know, especially in
our culture where it's like, you know, I'm I'm it's
(37:11):
wild sometime when I think about wrapping all the things
that they're rapping about it, I'm like, I really lived
that life, and but I may not be the person
that they see as being accessible because I'm not over
indexing on my past. I'm like, listen, I'm living a
whole different life and I want to bring you to
this part of it, not that old life, you.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
But I think this is a book opportunity that you know,
I would love to see more brothers and sisters in
the culture, like starting study groups and think tanks around
this framework, because it really is one of those problems
and we don't have nothing like it in our culture, right.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Like you know, when I was when I was set
out to write this.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
Particular book, I really was like, Man, I thought about
the books that helped me in my life while I
was incarcerated as a man, think of the secret man
starts with meaning all these books, and I didn't see
any book that was authored by somebody who really had
lived and experience that I had lived, and so I
was like, Oh, it's up to me to create that.
And that's how we ended up with this book. And
(38:08):
shout out to my brother being Horowitz, who actually encouraged
me to write a lesson book which was really powerful
and impactful.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Is a desire to be accepted a hidden prison?
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Oh? Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I think it's one of the one of the biggest
hidden prisons is that we're uh and it's really who
are you trying to be accepted by? And what do
you think that they have that you don't have inside yourself.
And I think when you when you begin to strengthen
your sense of who you are as a human being,
then you are draw to you what you need. But
you won't go out seeking acceptance from any and everybody.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
The book is out.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Right now, and then you invite me to write is
yesterday man Shack was clinding me because I take.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
He took a security personnel in an environment eight thousand, Yo.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
It was wid I don't practice.
Speaker 6 (39:00):
It was that weird, like I was.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
I was laughing the whole way as I was thinking
about what is going to happen when it's security walk
in and it's like literally hundreds of officers that are armed.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
And I'm like, Charlamne, you rolling in here with me? Man?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I didn't even think about it.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You good in any hood, any prison. When you rolling
with me.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I understand that I didn't the practice bad habits. You
know what I'm saying the movie that's right, that's right,
But that was stupid. And then just make took his
fire when he made him saying and you know he used.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
To be a cop. So I was like, yo, you
ever wanted to be a CEO Rikers he was.
Speaker 6 (39:32):
Like, Jesus, he's also doing your wealth ex bo Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
No, not this year. I'm a missing man.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
That's I've done it a couple of years and man,
it's one of the best best experience. I really encourage
everybody to go check it out, and we're gonna do
one on Rikers Island.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Gonna make that happen.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
But you know, I'm glad you did bring that up though,
because even though Shak is not doing it this year,
the years he's done it, it was such an important
It was so important to have you there as well
as Wallow because to your point, every year that we
did it, there was always people there who had either
just got out of prison or got people who are
in prison right now and we don't understand how that
(40:15):
impacts their mental especially brothers that just came home. It's
still institutionalized. And they were people like literally saying, y'all
need to add this component to the mental wealth x boo,
because those are the people that are dealing with it.
Speaker 5 (40:27):
Absolutely absolutely, and I'll definitely be there next year. I'm
so sad to be missing this one, but I'm super
excited to be out on tour with the book and
celebrating man, this book number three. Man, So it's actually surreal,
you know, and you know you've written books. You know
how hard it is to get a book, book up,
book out in the world.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
So a few weeks ago, man, so y'all holding hands,
you have your hand braided all nights and beat back.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Man.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
You know you know the wild thing about about the
relationship with Oprahs. We're generally friends, man. And like when
I when I first wrote my book, I don't know
if I told you the story, but I wrote my
first book in solitary and I was like, Yo, anybody
want to read this book? And the guy was like, man,
this ain't over. Don't nobody want to read that ship?
And I was like, damn. I was like that was cold.
But then I wrote it down as a goal. Opened
(41:16):
and read three of my books and invited me to
her home multiple times.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
And said that you were her greatest interview ever. Imagine
open saying that about you, just my greatest interview ever.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Yeah. Yeah, And then we became real friends.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Man.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
So that's that's my girl.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And I shout her out all the time and she
always reaches out. She I'm sorry, She'll be like congraands
on pub day, Shaka. You know, so she's genuinely she's
who she said she.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Is, like, she didn't cook.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
We didn't know tequila that time we was working. It
was it was it was great.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
She likes No.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
She actually sent me a few bottles though that she
she she uped my game on.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
The tequilas years ago. She asked me what my favorite was.
I told her.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
She was like, let me send you, let me send
you something, and she sent me three bottles with my name.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Absolutely and I drunk all three of them. Jesus all right.
Not at the same time, I figured that we'll pick up.
Speaker 6 (42:13):
The book How to Be Free Shock.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Proving God to Escaping life' hitting prisoners. Don't forget that part.
Speaker 5 (42:18):
That's everybody got a hid in prison. For every hidden prison,
there is a door, and this book is the key.
Speaker 6 (42:23):
It's the breakfast club.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Good morning every day, up weak, click your ass up,
the breakfast club.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
You don't finish for y'all done
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