March 18, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, Tudor welcomes Amy DiSibio of ackforwhales.org for a conversation exploring the negative impacts of wind turbines on the environment and wildlife, with a focus on the effects on whales. The discussion highlights concerns about the size and scale of offshore wind projects, the pollution caused by the construction and maintenance of turbines, and the potential harm to marine life. The conversation also touches on the lack of thorough evaluation and the need for a more responsible approach to renewable energy. Overall, the episode emphasizes the importance of considering the long-term consequences of new energy solutions and protecting the environment. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday, Wednesday, & Friday. For more information visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are talking
all things whales. I know that seems a little bit different,
but as we talk about how the world is changing
and weather and environment and climate and all of those
things have been changing, obviously, there have been a lot
of people that have said, Okay, what are the alternatives
that we can use to try to make sure that
(00:22):
we don't see a lot of these changes. And one
of those alternatives that we've seen is windmills. This is
something that we talk about a lot in Michigan because
there's been discussion in Michigan of putting windmills into Lake Michigan,
and people are concerned about what that means. We've talked
a lot about how the environment has been affected by
(00:46):
manufacturing and how manufacturers in the United States have changed
over the years to run cleaner manufacturing. And I know
this because I come from a steal foundery and I
know the changes that we made over the years to
make sure that we were running a clean factory. What
I love about the United States is we're always innovating.
We're always looking for ways to make things better, more
(01:09):
so than other countries, and I think that's important to
keep in mind when we have this discussion that sometimes
our innovations, while they may be different than what we're
using at the time, they may not be the right answer.
But that doesn't mean we should stop innovating and looking
for the right answer. And if you look at the
United States, like compared to China, we are doing things
(01:32):
leaps and bounds beyond them. When it comes to taking
care of the environment, it's a constant and ever changing battle.
But one of the things that we have seen is
that some of these environmental changes have other environmental consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It was interesting because just yesterday I.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Was meeting with a guy and he said, I said, well,
what do you think will happen with ev vehicles? And
he said, you know, as we're doing more studies, and
he was putting in some of the high powered chargers,
and he said, now we're kind of backing off of
that because as we're doing more studies, we're finding that
these high powered chargers for electric vehicles, when they charge
(02:12):
them in fifteen minutes, because of the amount of power
that you have to put into the car, that heats
up the battery. He said, the batteries then don't last
as long. But heating up the battery also causes gases,
and we end up with environmental issues from what's coming
off of the battery.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So we're learning, we're always learning.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That doesn't mean that there are people on a partisan issue,
that there are people on one side or the other
that are.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Saying don't do this.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It's just is it always the best thing in every situation,
And that brings us to the whales. And I wanted
to intro this that way because I want you to
know that we're not talking about this from a partisan
standpoint today. We are talking about this from the standpoint
of our wildlife. And we have seen issue hues in
(03:01):
the ocean where they've been putting these windmills with whales.
So I am so excited that Amy Decibio, she's a
board member for Act for Whales and they are based
in Nantucket Island, Massachusetts. I'm so excited that she's here
to talk to us today because I think we're all wondering, Amy,
what's happening. We see all these things, all these articles
(03:23):
and all these newscasts saying, oh more whales washed up
on shore, and we have beached whales and we have
dead whales.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
What's going on. Give us a little background on us.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
First of all, Tudor, thank you very much for having
me on. And it's interesting to be representing an organization
that's far from Michigan, but yet this is going to
be an issue everywhere in the United States. And I
think you said the most important thing earlier, this should
not be a part is an issue. There's nothing part
is in about protecting the environment. Everyone should want to
protect the environment, and I don't think what we really
(03:57):
want to do is attempt to solve a problem that's
potentially not solvable by this and create another huge breath.
So our organization has sort of stepped in to this,
as many other organizations have backed for Whales has formerly
been known as Residents against Turbines. We try to have
(04:18):
a little bit more of a positive message. But you know,
and we do do not call them windmills. These are
wind turbines. These are power plants that are being constructed
in our waters. And it's beyond just the size of
an individual turbine, and you know, in our case, there
will be thousands of them up and down the East coast,
and the size of these things are huge. If you've
(04:40):
seen turbines on shore. They're tiny ones off the coast,
are you know, eleven hundred feet tall to eleven hundred
and some even taller than that. Some of them models
are even larger than that. So imagine the support and
the pile driving that has to go into the bottom
of the ocean to support something like that, and the
girth of the you know, the turbine stanchions themselves. These
(05:04):
are cash machines, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You you talk about that, and it's funny because you
said they're huge. And in my mind, I'm thinking of
all the windmill farms that I drive by in the
state of Michigan as I go through the state, and
we have in Wisconsin has a really large turbine farm.
I guess that's what we call them. We call them
wind farms. But when you go past them, they're they're
(05:27):
massive and and I think people, if you haven't seen
these these wind mills or turbines, then I can see
how you think it it is a windmill. I see
why you don't use that term, because a windmill is
it's a small little fan really that is going around
and it kind of has this nostalgic feel.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But these things are massive.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I mean just one blade is like the size of
three football fields when that they're on land. I think
the other thing that people don't realize is that they're
constantly making noise. So it's not and that is disruptive
to animals. It's not innocent. It's not out there doing nothing.
We think of it as so natural, but it's not
natural to machine out there in the ground. And now
(06:08):
we're talking about them in the ocean. Another thing to
remember with these turbines is that they light up at night,
and that is something that in Michigan when farmers saw
this and they looked out and here they had this
beautiful piece of property and then they see all these lights.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well it bothers us.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
From an aesthetic standpoint, but it really messes with our animals.
It messes with our birds, with migration, with all of
these things. And I think that we just don't talk
about this. And the reason we're starting to find out
that we don't get to hear as much information about
this is that some of these groups that have always
(06:47):
been in defensive animals. Money always plays a factor, right,
and there's a lot of money in this. So these
corporations are getting big grants from the government, billions of
dollars of grants for the gut from the government, and
so some of these nonprofits that have always been we've trusted,
they've always been in defensive animals, they're now in defense
(07:11):
of equipment that is hurting our animals. But in some
cases it does come back to money. But what you
said about the turbines in the ocean, I was reading
that some of them are taller than skyscrapers, and that
is shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, the height of the wines in the ocean, I mean,
you know, you know, if you've been to New York,
you know it's the height of the chrystl they're building.
They are very tall. But just to look back on
something that you just said, Yes, there have been tons,
you know, billions and billions of dollars allocated from our
US government that you know is being allocated to these
(07:48):
energy companies. And I think people should understand in almost
all the cases, at least off the East Coast, the
energy companies that are doing this are foreign energy company.
So it's wow, more tax dollars funding you know, the
Inflation Reduction Act, and then that money is in turn
being allocated to foreign energy companies. Secondly, you touched on
something else that's very important, that the wind companies have
(08:10):
been very strategic and there have been a lot of money, yes,
that's been placed into tried and true big NGOs you know,
Sierra Club, you know, you know some of the Audubon societies,
green Peace, you know, and these tried and true organizations.
Many of the aquariums up and down the East Coast
I can speak of there and maybe you'll see the
(08:31):
same thing around the Great Lakes. But these are tried
and true, trusted organizations that really impact decision making by
both legislators and the public. So if the public is
not hearing anything, and everybody seems to want clean green energy,
which of course we do, but make sure that this
(08:52):
is clean green energy before we make a huge ofvot
because the damage is real.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, because something you said that I just want to
kind of explain to our audience because they may not understand.
I mean, if you have heard negative things about oil drilling,
You've heard about fracking, you've heard about the pressure that
it puts on the earth, You've heard about all of
these complaints. I ask you to think what is different
(09:18):
when you think about the massive to erect a building
the size of the John Hancock Building in the ocean.
Imagine what you have to do to the earth because
and we're not talking about one of these turbines. We're
talking about twenty four hundred turbines. So this has to
go into the ocean. And this is disturbing all of
(09:39):
the wildlife that lives in the ocean. And we don't
know what the impact of this kind of noise, this
kind of vibration does to these creatures, but we do
know that something is happening with the whales. The whales
are just, to me, the biggest creature that we get
to see, so we know because we see it. So
how many other creatures are in the ocean that this
(10:00):
pounding and these And I think the other thing we
need to remember is they don't last forever. So when
you hear about people, well we have to move and
drill for oil in another spot. Turbines last about thirty
to sixty years. Then you got to rip it out
and put a new one in.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, well, Tutor, I would say a couple of things.
It's beyond just the pile driving. They're all interconnected by
high voltage cabling, so there's plowd driving that goes on also,
and it's extensive and that you know, it interconnects all
of them. They go to substations, and the substations you know,
jack up the juice and then high voltage tables have
to land on shore, you know, come into communities, you know,
(10:39):
somehow attached to the grid. So it's a very robust buildout.
I mean to really, the fair term for this is
it's a power plant. It's they're absolutely industrial power plants.
There's kind of no other way to look at it.
And you know, we firmly believe that this has been
already that just the even the survey work, because before
(10:59):
they even in the construction, the survey work alone is
you know, is can be damaging to hearing for marine life,
and you know, we believe that that's what's caused a
lot of the whales that have beached themselves along the
East Coast over the last year, well last years, but
this particular, this last year has been crazy. And the
(11:20):
reality is the wind companies and the government know that
this is risky business. The wind companies apply for incidental
harassment authorizations and they are granted them by the US government. Agencies,
So there is an expectation these They make a whole
spreadsheet and say we think we'll harm you know, we're harassed.
(11:40):
This many minky whales, they go by species, this, many
North Atlantic right whales, and you know this, many dolphins.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
This.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
They go up and down and come up with you know,
hundreds of thousands of species that will be impacted by this.
So when these whales show up dead along the beach,
it's disheartening at the very least, but disturbing that everyone,
you know, the powers that be all turning around and say, well,
you know there's nothing to see here. This can't be that,
(12:09):
you know, caused by you know, the survey work or
the construction of an offshore power plant. Well, I would
say that we think otherwise. And you know, we work
with a coalition Save the Right Whales coalition. It's an
organization that encompasses many groups up and down the East coast.
There was a report, I Marie, you know, we did
a report, an actual study, and it shows a very
(12:31):
high correlation between whale dusts and the traffic, the extra
traffic that's seeing caused by offshore wind work. So you know,
we think that at least we should be putting these
projects on hold and taking a much better look and
to see what's happening.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Well, there has to be a
discussion out there that pollution comes in more than one form.
I a few years ago, I was at a it
was a National Geographic presentation on light pollution. And to
be honest, I was there with a bunch of Republicans
(13:07):
and I could tell they walked in and they're like, oh,
you know, the word pollution, and people just get kind
of turned off by that and don't understand it. They
don't understand pollution. By the end of this discussion, it
was amazing. This man had done such a beautiful job
of explaining what was happening. He was like, you know,
I take pictures for a living, and I've watched the
(13:29):
migratory patterns of birds and bees. And he said, because
we're using these new LED lights, we have this light
pollution and it is confusing our birds, but also our
honey bees. And so because our honeybees are getting confused,
they're not pollinating our crops. And at the end of it,
(13:51):
and you know, people were going, oh, wait a minute,
that's something different than what we understood before.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
We thought light pollution.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Meant it's just hurting our eyes, you know, or we
have too much light, we're not seeing the stars. Never
really got it full understanding of the definition of that.
And I remember I went up to him afterward and
I said, you know, you said things that I don't
think any of us have ever thought about. This is
putting our food supply at risk. And he said, do
(14:18):
you think if I explained it in those terms, people
would understand it in a different way. And I was like,
I think no one has truly explained these terms because
one side or the other on the political aisle gets
triggered by them. And he was like, it's a simple fix.
We're not asking you to get rid of lights. We're
(14:39):
asking you to go back to yellow lights rather than
white lights. And certain towns have actually gotten on board
with this and it has changed the natural environment there in.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
A big way.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I look at this as something similar this noise pollution.
I mean, this is a form of pollution. Even though
we think, okay, this is a new form of getting energy,
there are side effects that are maybe not worth the
new form of energy. I mean, if it's killing our
our ocean life, it's not worth it.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I agree, and I think very interesting story about the bees.
You know, this is definitely disruptive to the entire ecosystem.
And that's a case in point. You're talking about a
tiny you know, a little small bee and how important
they are for everyone. Right, so you know, not just humans,
but animals, all animals and the environment as a whole,
(15:33):
and this, you know, the lights will be significant. The
other thing to think about here is, yes, there's a
lot of pollution that is involved. You see, you know,
you have lots of you know, wind turbines on land
and I don't know if you've ever done sort of
a quick inventory to see, you know, are they all
moving all of the time? No, they're not right, and
(15:55):
are some of them broken? And the thought that they're
going to live thirty to sixty in the ocean is
not even that. They don't even pretend to use those numbers.
So lifespan is more probably twenty five years. And we
even think that's a bush at least in the Atlantic Ocean.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Is that because of corrosion or.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah, they'll take a yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And you know, so how do you keep them safe
from oil leaks.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean they all have you know, they're all
filled with thousands of gallons of synthetic oil for lubrication.
There are a lot of toxic materials in a turbine,
and you know, not to mention the constant vessel traffic
that will be out there constructing over decades and maintaining.
So as I was saying, you see the work that
(16:38):
has to happen to keep turbines on land, you know,
you know, maintenance, maintenance, duff. You know, we'll see what
happens in the ocean, and if a turbine blade falls,
what happens goes to the bottom of the ocean. Is
someone digging that out? You know, there are a lot
of big questions, and it just really seems like this
entire idea has been advanced very quickly, very little beta testing.
(17:00):
I mean, this hasn't you know, it's checking that they
haven't said, let's put out ten turbines, how to see
and let's see what happens, and let's see what the
impacts are. Instead, it's settled to the metal. Let's put
in hundreds and thousands of them, and then we'll see
and then we'll test and you know, off Nantucket and
I know your audience is Michigan, but there's a critically
endangered species, the North Atlantic right whale. Is there that
(17:22):
are fewer than three hundred and forty species left, and
they are building this turbine power plants back in the
middle where they're safe and is it's not responsible.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Well, so this is where I say these groups that
are fighting you on this. I mean there have been
some of these groups like Sierra Club have come out
and attacked you on this. These are the groups that
in the past, what have always been the ones out
there saying we are not going to take an endangered
species and.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Kill them off. We're not going to take that chance.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, you know, and it's been really it's been discouraging
to see some of the press and the accusations that
have come our way. I mean, it's almost if it
wasn't so discouraging, it would be funny, you know, the
thought that we're being funded by big O Island Gas,
when in fact the wind companies themselves are typically big
oiland gas. This is a new frontier for that many
of them have right forward. You know, we haven't taken
(18:13):
a penny from that, most of the groups up and
down the East Coast are very grassroots organizations, and we're
stepping in because the tried and true organizations that do
have funding, and many of them have funding. As we said,
from the wind companies are not doing what they say
what they say they're going to do. So it's it's
been really you know, that's probably been the hardest part
of it, is sort of the reality of Wow, things
(18:36):
don't really work how you think they work, and the
guy with the biggest bag of money wins, and it's.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Really it's really true.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, it's really able. And I can't even mention these
in the Great Lakes and that would just be a sin.
I mean, it's bad enough where we but.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's the same. I mean that I think is the
thing that shocks me the most.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, when you were we used to take a
lot of road trips when I was a kid, and
I remember driving past the power plants where you would
see all of those blinking lights, and I in my mind,
when I was a kid, I would think about Batman,
you know, because is like Gotham City, and I cannot
imagine looking out at the ocean and seeing that. But
(19:18):
it's the same when I drive past these wind farms,
it's just blinking lights, blinking lights. And I think that,
you know, people made fun of Donald Trump when he
came out and he said they're killing birds, and you know,
I don't think that there's been anybody who's come out
and actually kind of exposed what's happening with them.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And I think it's easy to go, oh, that, how silly,
you know.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But in Michigan we've had a huge problem on our
farms where they've killed bats because I think it's maybe
a similar situation with the sonar and they can't they
can't judge where the propellers are coming down, and they're
killing bats. We have a massive rodent problem then with
our food supply. So then the bats go in and
(20:02):
they killed the pests, right, So the bats are very
important the whole ecosystem of farming. And now our farmers
have their neighbor's land is being sold off because again
these companies come in with massive amounts of money and
they're like, we'll buy up your property and you can
stop farming and you're set for life, and it's very tempting,
and then these folks take it. They put up a
(20:24):
huge wind farm. That's what like I said, that's what
we call it a farm, and then the bats get
killed off and it hurts the environment for the farmers around.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, there really are a lot of side effects.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And that's why I just don't understand why we can't
step back and take this approach of there's got to
be I say this for other things too. There's more
than one way to skin a cat.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, you're bringing up something that I'm going to take
a step further about the bats. So we attended a
there was a summit in Hyana's, Massachusetts, and people from
off and down the East Coast came to speak about
the impacts of offshore wind, you know, not just on
the ocean but also on land. But one of the
(21:07):
big concerns in the ocean is that the turbines themselves,
you know, the ms are emitted, and what is the
impact that on animals, but also the impact that the
turbines themselves have on radar and it is shown to
compromise radar, so there are safety issues. The Coastguard has
(21:29):
been very clear that you know, we don't go out
and our work is typically in the water when conditions
are poor and there's low visibility. That's when accidents happen.
But because of part of it is because of the
radar compromisation, but also just the turbines, Like we're not
bringing a helicopter down in a turbine field. Similarly, there
(21:52):
could be national security issues et cetera, et cetera that
all needs to be addressed much more. And I think
part of the problem is some of the folks that
are nervous about this are I think of many people.
This is this the the era that we are in.
People are afraid to speak up because their job may
become perhaps they're in an appointed position by someone who
(22:12):
really wants this. On the East coast, you know, we
know that this is a big Biden administration agenda item,
and this has been a you know, many of the
states on the East Coast have jumped on board both sides.
You know, both parties have jumped on board on this wholeheartedly.
And I think mostly out of hate to say this,
(22:34):
but out of really not understanding the issue fully. I
don't like to use the word ignorance, but somewhat on
that And I think, and why go back and blame
again the environmental groups that work almost like lobbyists that
they teach us and if they're afraid, you know, and
their concerns are real, you know, And nobody brings this
to the forefront. The decision makers aren't fully equipped. We
(22:55):
don't expect our legislators to be marine biologists or energy
expert fryd out loud. Let's put all the smartest people
in the room and have a robust discussion before we
make such huge decisions. But what a pedal to the metal.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
What a misnomer to call it clean energy when we
see it hurting so many different areas.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
What you are seeing on the East Coast is certainly
what we're fearing here in Michigan, because Lake Michigan does
have a massive amount of wind.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It would be on paper, it looks.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Good, right, And we actually have a legislator who recently
put in a bill that would take away local control.
And I was talking to a gentleman yesterday about this
and he said, yeah, so if my neighbor decides to
sell their land and put up a wind farm, then
my local community can't do anything about it. It comes
from the capital and this gentleman also just so happened
(24:00):
to own a solar company. But to your point, it's
the people with money, it's the people with power. They
then change the laws and it's all under the guise
of clean energy. Again, like I said, that is the
wrong name. And I think that we are so afraid
of coming out and saying, hey, we're against this because
people will say you don't love the environment.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
No, no, quite the opposite.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It is that I do love the environment and I
don't know how this is going to affect it and
what permanent damage could be done, because we know as
humans we've done permanent damage before there and nobody can
say we have not left a footprint on this earth.
We certainly have, so why not be incredibly careful before
we leave another irreversible footprint?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, I agree, you know, I think you know, again,
it's been hard to I believe it's been very hard
to have. This is the overall global or the national
climate that we've had. Right that anything that's controversial, if
it's been hard to speak up there there's a lot
of shaming that go that goes on. So if you
decide to say, you know, we've been called you know,
(25:07):
you're just climate denying gas loving freaks, right, I mean,
that couldn't be further from the truth. We are concerned
about the environment, so let's not you know, try to
fix one problem which may not really fix anything. By
the way, because I also think that's important. You know,
when you keep reading why we're doing things, the answer
is to meet you know, Michigan's climate goals or Massachusetts
(25:31):
climate goals. But what are the climate goals based upon?
These are these climate goals that they actually going to do.
Why don't we take a step back and say what
are we trying to solve for? And if it's climate change,
then let's see in the data where we show that
this actually will move the needle on climate change. Unfortunately
you don't really see that. But we've all made climate goals,
(25:53):
and so you know, we're sticking to them, come hell
or hot water. I don't think that that's responsible and
we should be able to pivot if we start to
head down a path and we people start to push
back and we start to see evidence that you know,
dead animals for example, when we know that that could
be a risk, why don't we pull back and put
these things on paps. But you know, I don't think
(26:14):
it works that way. Once the government's allocated money to
do something, they're going to spend it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean it's it's been the same for us here
in the Midwest. It's been kind of the same discussion
over electric vehicles because there's been there have been some
groups who have said, well, you know, the chemicals used
to make the batteries are not great. The amount of
energy that it takes to build the car is three
times what it was to build a gas powered car.
(26:42):
To charge the batteries. Now we're hearing that there's potentially
gases coming off the batteries.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And this is not to say, oh, we can't do this.
It's to say, in the midst of innovation, when you're
still figuring things out, when the federal government says it's
go time, we're putting billions of dogs into it. Sometimes
then all of those tests that would normally happen, they
take their foot off of the brakes there and say, okay,
(27:09):
well we've got the go And that to me is
dangerous because then we go off in a direction that could,
like I said, be potentially dangerous. You hit on something
else and before I let you go, I just I
want to talk.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
About this because you talked about the size of these
propellers or whatever we're calling them that come off of
the turbines.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
The part of me what did you call them the blades,
the turbine blades?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, yes, And I think that from the outside perspective,
some people look at these and they go, oh, it's
all metal and it's all something that it can just
be melted down or reused.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
But it's not. It's fiberglass.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's a combination of materials that cannot be recycled. And
so you talk about one of these blades falling into
the ocean, what is actually once that goes into the ocean.
How quickly does the salt water start to eat away
at that? What kind of chemicals are going into the
ocean When you have something that is made from a
(28:07):
fiberglass material, which we know is highly dangerous, a carcinogen
for a humans, what could it do to ocean life?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And what is the base made of?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
What exactly are we putting in the ocean because we
know on land these cannot be recycled. We're taking them
out to Wyoming, We're digging these massive holes that are
like the size of three football fields and then burying them.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
How is this a good thing?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I know, it's yeah, I agree. The composition of a
turbine is steel, carbon fiber as you mentioned, or fiberglass
on the blades. There are lots of rare earth minerals
and magnet minerals in the rotor toxic you know. You know,
almost the entire thing is non recyclable. So what do
(28:55):
we do with all of these things? And you know,
and they're just enormous. You know, these are just huge machines.
As I mentioned, They're filled with lubricating oil. You know,
they are connected interconnected by high voltage cabling that gets
cloud driven under the ground. And these are big, huge cables.
The amount of damage that happens at the bottom of
the seafloor is unbelievable. And then they have to you know,
(29:18):
travel you know, miles and miles to land. You know,
they're it's just really environmentally to me, I just feel
like this is a very bad trade. Wind is not
a dense product. It's meaning it requires a lot of
land to produce a relatively small amount of energy. You know. Conversely,
and I'm not espousing any kind of energy. I'm not
(29:40):
a I'm not an energy expert, but for example, nuclear
would be the opposite. It's a very dense product. You can,
you know, put a small nuclear reactor on your property
that could power you know, a lot of a lot
of homes. So it just requires less less earth destruction.
And I think because these are in the ocean or
(30:01):
in one of the Great Lakes, that they're not really
in anybody's backyard exactly, so that I think the public
has not had a chance to really think this through
very well. But it will impact everyone. As you said,
there's lighting. They'll be out there for vessel traffic, for
air traffic, they'll be lit all the time. That is
damaging to both animals and frankly to humans. And I
(30:24):
think that one last thing I would just say is
that the human environment matters. Also. It's important to be
able to sit at the Great Lakes and look out
and just see a horizon, or at the ocean and
just see a horizon. That's important for the human environment
to have that ability as well. And you know, it's
why we protect things, you know, we have you know,
(30:45):
you know, I don't know the geography in Michigan well enough.
But Nantucket, for example, the entire island is a National
Historic Landmark. This changes that. You know, would we stick these,
you know, in the middle of Williamsburg, Virginia or would
they stick these around the and canyon? You know, we
should treasure the things that we have and really think
these things through, really well before we make such a pivot.
(31:08):
My guess is a lot of these projects will get
built and then and I don't think that in fifty
years we're going to be having this discussion about offshore wind.
I think we'll have moved on. There'll be a better technology.
I think it'll be before that, frankly, But and then,
what who's paying to pull all of these things out
of the ground and where they're going? I can tell
(31:28):
you that, you know, they they have waived the mandate
for some of these projects, certainly the first one that's
being built off in Nantucket right now, they've waived the
mandate for the wind companies to ask grow funds to decommission.
So who's going to do that? They say, it costs
as much to decommission as it does to build. And
then and where do we put them? So I just
(31:49):
think this is a kind of a fool's errant, an
expensive to the environment, and an expensive financially fools errant.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And I think to your point as I was reading
about this, when I started reading about the amount of
lighting that it takes to put them in because you
have to have massive ships, and I don't think people
really understand. It's not like someone goes out there on
a dinghy and puts a light post in the ocean.
You have to have massive ships. It's going to be
(32:17):
a huge building process in the ocean. So you're polluting
the ocean with the ships that are out there. You
also are spending a massive amount of time out there
with with lighting that changes the whole course of the ocean.
The ocean is used to being, you know, the creatures
in the ocean are used to the darkness at night
and to be able to live their lives the way
they always have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
This is this is going to have a huge effect.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
That it doesn't happen overnight and then you come and
decommission and it's the same thing. And that's what made
me think of the gentleman from National Geographic who said, hey,
when we put up these big white lights, it has
a great effect on our environment.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That you aren't thinking about.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I think to myself, well, why wouldn't this do
the same thing in the ocean.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
There's so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
To just think about this to not And again I
just want to reiterate this is not a partisan discussion.
This is about protecting wildlife. And you talked about the
human aspect of the need to come out and see
the ocean, to decompress, to have that mental space and
(33:22):
that absorbing nature. We know how important that is. But
I just last thing. I know I said last thing,
but last thing I want to say. I want to
ask you about when you talk about the amount of
voltage that is going coursing through all of these lines
and all of these big turbines out in the ocean,
(33:42):
that seems to me like there would be a constant
vibration out there. So even though I mean, you have
the turbines moving, but even as that's coursing underground, what
is that doing?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Yeah, so you know there's not I don't have a
lot of research on that. We do know, we have
seen a study that was done in the UK with
offshore with offshore wind and the EMFs, the electromagnetic frequency
that comes off that type of cabling and they've attributed
(34:16):
the malformation of lobsters that they're seeing to that. You know,
these animals live on the bottom of the ground, and
these EMFs are being emitted. The cabling can't be veried
very deep, you know, which is odd, but when you
think about it, they emit a lot of heat and
so they need to be cooled by the water, and
so they're really only five or six feet deep, which
(34:40):
means they are fairly close to the surface. And you know,
they also the substations emit I can't remember the number gallons,
but they in order to keep things cool part of
the process. And again I'm not an energy expert. I
don't know exactly how this works, but you know, daily
like millions of gallons of really hot water is you know,
(35:04):
is water is cycled through the substation and then dumped
into the ocean much too warm. I mean, we're worried
about you know, global warming and temperatures rising in the
ocean for animals where we're just going to do it
ourselves and it'll be very very warm. Yeah, So it's
all of these concerns. You know, it's just it's sort
of one thing after the next, and you know, we
(35:26):
our organization did file a lawsuit. I don't think we
mentioned that against you know, the pure of Ocean Energy
Management and you know a fisheries that the agencies that
are responsible for the permitting process for the Vineyard Wind project,
which is the first the nation's first offshore wind projective
is offman took it. We were in federal Kielsport two
(35:47):
weeks ago and we're hoping to press forward with this.
You know, we just think that they know, you know,
in a nutshell, the lawsuit is, hey, US government, you're
not really following your own endangered species and our protection
laws should be. And you know that things needed to
be more third. So we're really hoping to get get
some traction there and have everybody stop. You know, we
(36:08):
really like it's just people to stop and take a
better look at all of this. You know, they never
consider the impacts, the cumulative impacts. There will be a
lot of projects that occur in that area. And you're
saying that it sounds like there would be twenty four
hundreds or buying. You know, that is a big area,
you know, off the Atlantic they're putting these things. There'll
be each one will take about a square miles. So
(36:31):
you're talking twenty four hundred miles. I mean, think about that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Good.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Agree, that's like twice the state of size the state
of Rhode Island. What you're talking about there, these are.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
How many whales has it been so far that you've seen,
you know, they are there.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It's been up and down the coast. You know, Nantucket
would be a small target to hit, you know, so
it's a little teeny island, but they and you know,
these whales migrate the North Atlantic great whale for example.
You know, it goes up and down the coast these
last three hundred and forties, so New Jersey and New
York have sort of been ground zero. It seems like
lots of them have shown there over the last just
(37:08):
way too many. And you know, it's these are huge beests.
They play a very important role in the ecosystem in
the ocean. They actually are Mother Nature's way of squestering
carbon dioxide, you know, whale FECs so are really feed
the basis of the entire food chain out there. So
they play a really vital role. You were talking about
(37:29):
the bees. It's you know, these are a big species
with big species with little feces. There are lots of
little feces, but that really are important. So, you know,
I think we need to really consider the impacts here
when when you start messing with mother nature on one
end of it or another, the ramifications can be enormous.
And you know, I think we just need to be
(37:50):
more responsible. And I'm really glad that you're taking a
look at this in Michigan. And you know, we've been
contacted from by groups in California, from the Golfer. This
is a concern all over the country and I think
that you know it's it's important that the discussion continues.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Well, I appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I know you've called it a David versus Goliath issue,
and it absolutely is. And I know the attacks that
you guys are under. I know they've gone after you
and they've said terrible things and they're trying to get
you shut down, and it speaks volumes about your character
that you don't stop.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Amy Decibio.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I'm so grateful that you came on today, and I'm
so grateful that you continue to fight for this.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Thank you so much, Thank you, tutor.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
It's a pleasure. Have a good day.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yes, thank you, and thank you all for joining us
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast for this episode and others.
As always, you can go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com
and subscribe right there, or head over to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and join
us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Have a blessing,
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are talking
all things whales. I know that seems a little bit different,
but as we talk about how the world is changing
and weather and environment and climate and all of those
things have been changing, obviously, there have been a lot
of people that have said, Okay, what are the alternatives
that we can use to try to make sure that
(00:22):
we don't see a lot of these changes. And one
of those alternatives that we've seen is windmills. This is
something that we talk about a lot in Michigan because
there's been discussion in Michigan of putting windmills into Lake Michigan,
and people are concerned about what that means. We've talked
a lot about how the environment has been affected by
(00:46):
manufacturing and how manufacturers in the United States have changed
over the years to run cleaner manufacturing. And I know
this because I come from a steal foundery and I
know the changes that we made over the years to
make sure that we were running a clean factory. What
I love about the United States is we're always innovating.
We're always looking for ways to make things better, more
(01:09):
so than other countries, and I think that's important to
keep in mind when we have this discussion that sometimes
our innovations, while they may be different than what we're
using at the time, they may not be the right answer.
But that doesn't mean we should stop innovating and looking
for the right answer. And if you look at the
United States, like compared to China, we are doing things
(01:32):
leaps and bounds beyond them. When it comes to taking
care of the environment, it's a constant and ever changing battle.
But one of the things that we have seen is
that some of these environmental changes have other environmental consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It was interesting because just yesterday I.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Was meeting with a guy and he said, I said, well,
what do you think will happen with ev vehicles? And
he said, you know, as we're doing more studies, and
he was putting in some of the high powered chargers,
and he said, now we're kind of backing off of
that because as we're doing more studies, we're finding that
these high powered chargers for electric vehicles, when they charge
(02:12):
them in fifteen minutes, because of the amount of power
that you have to put into the car, that heats
up the battery. He said, the batteries then don't last
as long. But heating up the battery also causes gases,
and we end up with environmental issues from what's coming
off of the battery.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So we're learning, we're always learning.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That doesn't mean that there are people on a partisan issue,
that there are people on one side or the other
that are.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Saying don't do this.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It's just is it always the best thing in every situation,
And that brings us to the whales. And I wanted
to intro this that way because I want you to
know that we're not talking about this from a partisan
standpoint today. We are talking about this from the standpoint
of our wildlife. And we have seen issue hues in
(03:01):
the ocean where they've been putting these windmills with whales.
So I am so excited that Amy Decibio, she's a
board member for Act for Whales and they are based
in Nantucket Island, Massachusetts. I'm so excited that she's here
to talk to us today because I think we're all wondering, Amy,
what's happening. We see all these things, all these articles
(03:23):
and all these newscasts saying, oh more whales washed up
on shore, and we have beached whales and we have
dead whales.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
What's going on. Give us a little background on us.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
First of all, Tudor, thank you very much for having
me on. And it's interesting to be representing an organization
that's far from Michigan, but yet this is going to
be an issue everywhere in the United States. And I
think you said the most important thing earlier, this should
not be a part is an issue. There's nothing part
is in about protecting the environment. Everyone should want to
protect the environment, and I don't think what we really
(03:57):
want to do is attempt to solve a problem that's
potentially not solvable by this and create another huge breath.
So our organization has sort of stepped in to this,
as many other organizations have backed for Whales has formerly
been known as Residents against Turbines. We try to have
(04:18):
a little bit more of a positive message. But you know,
and we do do not call them windmills. These are
wind turbines. These are power plants that are being constructed
in our waters. And it's beyond just the size of
an individual turbine, and you know, in our case, there
will be thousands of them up and down the East coast,
and the size of these things are huge. If you've
(04:40):
seen turbines on shore. They're tiny ones off the coast,
are you know, eleven hundred feet tall to eleven hundred
and some even taller than that. Some of them models
are even larger than that. So imagine the support and
the pile driving that has to go into the bottom
of the ocean to support something like that, and the
girth of the you know, the turbine stanchions themselves. These
(05:04):
are cash machines, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You you talk about that, and it's funny because you
said they're huge. And in my mind, I'm thinking of
all the windmill farms that I drive by in the
state of Michigan as I go through the state, and
we have in Wisconsin has a really large turbine farm.
I guess that's what we call them. We call them
wind farms. But when you go past them, they're they're
(05:27):
massive and and I think people, if you haven't seen
these these wind mills or turbines, then I can see
how you think it it is a windmill. I see
why you don't use that term, because a windmill is
it's a small little fan really that is going around
and it kind of has this nostalgic feel.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But these things are massive.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I mean just one blade is like the size of
three football fields when that they're on land. I think
the other thing that people don't realize is that they're
constantly making noise. So it's not and that is disruptive
to animals. It's not innocent. It's not out there doing nothing.
We think of it as so natural, but it's not
natural to machine out there in the ground. And now
(06:08):
we're talking about them in the ocean. Another thing to
remember with these turbines is that they light up at night,
and that is something that in Michigan when farmers saw
this and they looked out and here they had this
beautiful piece of property and then they see all these lights.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well it bothers us.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
From an aesthetic standpoint, but it really messes with our animals.
It messes with our birds, with migration, with all of
these things. And I think that we just don't talk
about this. And the reason we're starting to find out
that we don't get to hear as much information about
this is that some of these groups that have always
(06:47):
been in defensive animals. Money always plays a factor, right,
and there's a lot of money in this. So these
corporations are getting big grants from the government, billions of
dollars of grants for the gut from the government, and
so some of these nonprofits that have always been we've trusted,
they've always been in defensive animals, they're now in defense
(07:11):
of equipment that is hurting our animals. But in some
cases it does come back to money. But what you
said about the turbines in the ocean, I was reading
that some of them are taller than skyscrapers, and that
is shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, the height of the wines in the ocean, I mean,
you know, you know, if you've been to New York,
you know it's the height of the chrystl they're building.
They are very tall. But just to look back on
something that you just said, Yes, there have been tons,
you know, billions and billions of dollars allocated from our
US government that you know is being allocated to these
(07:48):
energy companies. And I think people should understand in almost
all the cases, at least off the East Coast, the
energy companies that are doing this are foreign energy company.
So it's wow, more tax dollars funding you know, the
Inflation Reduction Act, and then that money is in turn
being allocated to foreign energy companies. Secondly, you touched on
something else that's very important, that the wind companies have
(08:10):
been very strategic and there have been a lot of money, yes,
that's been placed into tried and true big NGOs you know,
Sierra Club, you know, you know some of the Audubon societies,
green Peace, you know, and these tried and true organizations.
Many of the aquariums up and down the East Coast
I can speak of there and maybe you'll see the
(08:31):
same thing around the Great Lakes. But these are tried
and true, trusted organizations that really impact decision making by
both legislators and the public. So if the public is
not hearing anything, and everybody seems to want clean green energy,
which of course we do, but make sure that this
(08:52):
is clean green energy before we make a huge ofvot
because the damage is real.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, because something you said that I just want to
kind of explain to our audience because they may not understand.
I mean, if you have heard negative things about oil drilling,
You've heard about fracking, you've heard about the pressure that
it puts on the earth, You've heard about all of
these complaints. I ask you to think what is different
(09:18):
when you think about the massive to erect a building
the size of the John Hancock Building in the ocean.
Imagine what you have to do to the earth because
and we're not talking about one of these turbines. We're
talking about twenty four hundred turbines. So this has to
go into the ocean. And this is disturbing all of
(09:39):
the wildlife that lives in the ocean. And we don't
know what the impact of this kind of noise, this
kind of vibration does to these creatures, but we do
know that something is happening with the whales. The whales
are just, to me, the biggest creature that we get
to see, so we know because we see it. So
how many other creatures are in the ocean that this
(10:00):
pounding and these And I think the other thing we
need to remember is they don't last forever. So when
you hear about people, well we have to move and
drill for oil in another spot. Turbines last about thirty
to sixty years. Then you got to rip it out
and put a new one in.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, well, Tutor, I would say a couple of things.
It's beyond just the pile driving. They're all interconnected by
high voltage cabling, so there's plowd driving that goes on also,
and it's extensive and that you know, it interconnects all
of them. They go to substations, and the substations you know,
jack up the juice and then high voltage tables have
to land on shore, you know, come into communities, you know,
(10:39):
somehow attached to the grid. So it's a very robust buildout.
I mean to really, the fair term for this is
it's a power plant. It's they're absolutely industrial power plants.
There's kind of no other way to look at it.
And you know, we firmly believe that this has been
already that just the even the survey work, because before
(10:59):
they even in the construction, the survey work alone is
you know, is can be damaging to hearing for marine life,
and you know, we believe that that's what's caused a
lot of the whales that have beached themselves along the
East Coast over the last year, well last years, but
this particular, this last year has been crazy. And the
(11:20):
reality is the wind companies and the government know that
this is risky business. The wind companies apply for incidental
harassment authorizations and they are granted them by the US government. Agencies,
So there is an expectation these They make a whole
spreadsheet and say we think we'll harm you know, we're harassed.
(11:40):
This many minky whales, they go by species, this, many
North Atlantic right whales, and you know this, many dolphins.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
This.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
They go up and down and come up with you know,
hundreds of thousands of species that will be impacted by this.
So when these whales show up dead along the beach,
it's disheartening at the very least, but disturbing that everyone,
you know, the powers that be all turning around and say, well,
you know there's nothing to see here. This can't be that,
(12:09):
you know, caused by you know, the survey work or
the construction of an offshore power plant. Well, I would
say that we think otherwise. And you know, we work
with a coalition Save the Right Whales coalition. It's an
organization that encompasses many groups up and down the East coast.
There was a report, I Marie, you know, we did
a report, an actual study, and it shows a very
(12:31):
high correlation between whale dusts and the traffic, the extra
traffic that's seeing caused by offshore wind work. So you know,
we think that at least we should be putting these
projects on hold and taking a much better look and
to see what's happening.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Well, there has to be a
discussion out there that pollution comes in more than one form.
I a few years ago, I was at a it
was a National Geographic presentation on light pollution. And to
be honest, I was there with a bunch of Republicans
(13:07):
and I could tell they walked in and they're like, oh,
you know, the word pollution, and people just get kind
of turned off by that and don't understand it. They
don't understand pollution. By the end of this discussion, it
was amazing. This man had done such a beautiful job
of explaining what was happening. He was like, you know,
I take pictures for a living, and I've watched the
(13:29):
migratory patterns of birds and bees. And he said, because
we're using these new LED lights, we have this light
pollution and it is confusing our birds, but also our
honey bees. And so because our honeybees are getting confused,
they're not pollinating our crops. And at the end of it,
(13:51):
and you know, people were going, oh, wait a minute,
that's something different than what we understood before.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
We thought light pollution.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Meant it's just hurting our eyes, you know, or we
have too much light, we're not seeing the stars. Never
really got it full understanding of the definition of that.
And I remember I went up to him afterward and
I said, you know, you said things that I don't
think any of us have ever thought about. This is
putting our food supply at risk. And he said, do
(14:18):
you think if I explained it in those terms, people
would understand it in a different way. And I was like,
I think no one has truly explained these terms because
one side or the other on the political aisle gets
triggered by them. And he was like, it's a simple fix.
We're not asking you to get rid of lights. We're
(14:39):
asking you to go back to yellow lights rather than
white lights. And certain towns have actually gotten on board
with this and it has changed the natural environment there in.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
A big way.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I look at this as something similar this noise pollution.
I mean, this is a form of pollution. Even though
we think, okay, this is a new form of getting energy,
there are side effects that are maybe not worth the
new form of energy. I mean, if it's killing our
our ocean life, it's not worth it.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I agree, and I think very interesting story about the bees.
You know, this is definitely disruptive to the entire ecosystem.
And that's a case in point. You're talking about a
tiny you know, a little small bee and how important
they are for everyone. Right, so you know, not just humans,
but animals, all animals and the environment as a whole,
(15:33):
and this, you know, the lights will be significant. The
other thing to think about here is, yes, there's a
lot of pollution that is involved. You see, you know,
you have lots of you know, wind turbines on land
and I don't know if you've ever done sort of
a quick inventory to see, you know, are they all
moving all of the time? No, they're not right, and
(15:55):
are some of them broken? And the thought that they're
going to live thirty to sixty in the ocean is
not even that. They don't even pretend to use those numbers.
So lifespan is more probably twenty five years. And we
even think that's a bush at least in the Atlantic Ocean.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Is that because of corrosion or.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah, they'll take a yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And you know, so how do you keep them safe
from oil leaks.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean they all have you know, they're all
filled with thousands of gallons of synthetic oil for lubrication.
There are a lot of toxic materials in a turbine,
and you know, not to mention the constant vessel traffic
that will be out there constructing over decades and maintaining.
So as I was saying, you see the work that
(16:38):
has to happen to keep turbines on land, you know,
you know, maintenance, maintenance, duff. You know, we'll see what
happens in the ocean, and if a turbine blade falls,
what happens goes to the bottom of the ocean. Is
someone digging that out? You know, there are a lot
of big questions, and it just really seems like this
entire idea has been advanced very quickly, very little beta testing.
(17:00):
I mean, this hasn't you know, it's checking that they
haven't said, let's put out ten turbines, how to see
and let's see what happens, and let's see what the
impacts are. Instead, it's settled to the metal. Let's put
in hundreds and thousands of them, and then we'll see
and then we'll test and you know, off Nantucket and
I know your audience is Michigan, but there's a critically
endangered species, the North Atlantic right whale. Is there that
(17:22):
are fewer than three hundred and forty species left, and
they are building this turbine power plants back in the
middle where they're safe and is it's not responsible.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Well, so this is where I say these groups that
are fighting you on this. I mean there have been
some of these groups like Sierra Club have come out
and attacked you on this. These are the groups that
in the past, what have always been the ones out
there saying we are not going to take an endangered
species and.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Kill them off. We're not going to take that chance.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, you know, and it's been really it's been discouraging
to see some of the press and the accusations that
have come our way. I mean, it's almost if it
wasn't so discouraging, it would be funny, you know, the
thought that we're being funded by big O Island Gas,
when in fact the wind companies themselves are typically big
oiland gas. This is a new frontier for that many
of them have right forward. You know, we haven't taken
(18:13):
a penny from that, most of the groups up and
down the East Coast are very grassroots organizations, and we're
stepping in because the tried and true organizations that do
have funding, and many of them have funding. As we said,
from the wind companies are not doing what they say
what they say they're going to do. So it's it's
been really you know, that's probably been the hardest part
of it, is sort of the reality of Wow, things
(18:36):
don't really work how you think they work, and the
guy with the biggest bag of money wins, and it's.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Really it's really true.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, it's really able. And I can't even mention these
in the Great Lakes and that would just be a sin.
I mean, it's bad enough where we but.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's the same. I mean that I think is the
thing that shocks me the most.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, when you were we used to take a
lot of road trips when I was a kid, and
I remember driving past the power plants where you would
see all of those blinking lights, and I in my mind,
when I was a kid, I would think about Batman,
you know, because is like Gotham City, and I cannot
imagine looking out at the ocean and seeing that. But
(19:18):
it's the same when I drive past these wind farms,
it's just blinking lights, blinking lights. And I think that,
you know, people made fun of Donald Trump when he
came out and he said they're killing birds, and you know,
I don't think that there's been anybody who's come out
and actually kind of exposed what's happening with them.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And I think it's easy to go, oh, that, how silly,
you know.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But in Michigan we've had a huge problem on our
farms where they've killed bats because I think it's maybe
a similar situation with the sonar and they can't they
can't judge where the propellers are coming down, and they're
killing bats. We have a massive rodent problem then with
our food supply. So then the bats go in and
(20:02):
they killed the pests, right, So the bats are very
important the whole ecosystem of farming. And now our farmers
have their neighbor's land is being sold off because again
these companies come in with massive amounts of money and
they're like, we'll buy up your property and you can
stop farming and you're set for life, and it's very tempting,
and then these folks take it. They put up a
(20:24):
huge wind farm. That's what like I said, that's what
we call it a farm, and then the bats get
killed off and it hurts the environment for the farmers around.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, there really are a lot of side effects.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And that's why I just don't understand why we can't
step back and take this approach of there's got to
be I say this for other things too. There's more
than one way to skin a cat.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, you're bringing up something that I'm going to take
a step further about the bats. So we attended a
there was a summit in Hyana's, Massachusetts, and people from
off and down the East Coast came to speak about
the impacts of offshore wind, you know, not just on
the ocean but also on land. But one of the
(21:07):
big concerns in the ocean is that the turbines themselves,
you know, the ms are emitted, and what is the
impact that on animals, but also the impact that the
turbines themselves have on radar and it is shown to
compromise radar, so there are safety issues. The Coastguard has
(21:29):
been very clear that you know, we don't go out
and our work is typically in the water when conditions
are poor and there's low visibility. That's when accidents happen.
But because of part of it is because of the
radar compromisation, but also just the turbines, Like we're not
bringing a helicopter down in a turbine field. Similarly, there
(21:52):
could be national security issues et cetera, et cetera that
all needs to be addressed much more. And I think
part of the problem is some of the folks that
are nervous about this are I think of many people.
This is this the the era that we are in.
People are afraid to speak up because their job may
become perhaps they're in an appointed position by someone who
(22:12):
really wants this. On the East coast, you know, we
know that this is a big Biden administration agenda item,
and this has been a you know, many of the
states on the East Coast have jumped on board both sides.
You know, both parties have jumped on board on this wholeheartedly.
And I think mostly out of hate to say this,
(22:34):
but out of really not understanding the issue fully. I
don't like to use the word ignorance, but somewhat on
that And I think, and why go back and blame
again the environmental groups that work almost like lobbyists that
they teach us and if they're afraid, you know, and
their concerns are real, you know, And nobody brings this
to the forefront. The decision makers aren't fully equipped. We
(22:55):
don't expect our legislators to be marine biologists or energy
expert fryd out loud. Let's put all the smartest people
in the room and have a robust discussion before we
make such huge decisions. But what a pedal to the metal.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
What a misnomer to call it clean energy when we
see it hurting so many different areas.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
What you are seeing on the East Coast is certainly
what we're fearing here in Michigan, because Lake Michigan does
have a massive amount of wind.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It would be on paper, it looks.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Good, right, And we actually have a legislator who recently
put in a bill that would take away local control.
And I was talking to a gentleman yesterday about this
and he said, yeah, so if my neighbor decides to
sell their land and put up a wind farm, then
my local community can't do anything about it. It comes
from the capital and this gentleman also just so happened
(24:00):
to own a solar company. But to your point, it's
the people with money, it's the people with power. They
then change the laws and it's all under the guise
of clean energy. Again, like I said, that is the
wrong name. And I think that we are so afraid
of coming out and saying, hey, we're against this because
people will say you don't love the environment.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
No, no, quite the opposite.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It is that I do love the environment and I
don't know how this is going to affect it and
what permanent damage could be done, because we know as
humans we've done permanent damage before there and nobody can
say we have not left a footprint on this earth.
We certainly have, so why not be incredibly careful before
we leave another irreversible footprint?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, I agree, you know, I think you know, again,
it's been hard to I believe it's been very hard
to have. This is the overall global or the national
climate that we've had. Right that anything that's controversial, if
it's been hard to speak up there there's a lot
of shaming that go that goes on. So if you
decide to say, you know, we've been called you know,
(25:07):
you're just climate denying gas loving freaks, right, I mean,
that couldn't be further from the truth. We are concerned
about the environment, so let's not you know, try to
fix one problem which may not really fix anything. By
the way, because I also think that's important. You know,
when you keep reading why we're doing things, the answer
is to meet you know, Michigan's climate goals or Massachusetts
(25:31):
climate goals. But what are the climate goals based upon?
These are these climate goals that they actually going to do.
Why don't we take a step back and say what
are we trying to solve for? And if it's climate change,
then let's see in the data where we show that
this actually will move the needle on climate change. Unfortunately
you don't really see that. But we've all made climate goals,
(25:53):
and so you know, we're sticking to them, come hell
or hot water. I don't think that that's responsible and
we should be able to pivot if we start to
head down a path and we people start to push
back and we start to see evidence that you know,
dead animals for example, when we know that that could
be a risk, why don't we pull back and put
these things on paps. But you know, I don't think
(26:14):
it works that way. Once the government's allocated money to
do something, they're going to spend it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean it's it's been the same for us here
in the Midwest. It's been kind of the same discussion
over electric vehicles because there's been there have been some
groups who have said, well, you know, the chemicals used
to make the batteries are not great. The amount of
energy that it takes to build the car is three
times what it was to build a gas powered car.
(26:42):
To charge the batteries. Now we're hearing that there's potentially
gases coming off the batteries.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And this is not to say, oh, we can't do this.
It's to say, in the midst of innovation, when you're
still figuring things out, when the federal government says it's
go time, we're putting billions of dogs into it. Sometimes
then all of those tests that would normally happen, they
take their foot off of the brakes there and say, okay,
(27:09):
well we've got the go And that to me is
dangerous because then we go off in a direction that could,
like I said, be potentially dangerous. You hit on something
else and before I let you go, I just I
want to talk.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
About this because you talked about the size of these
propellers or whatever we're calling them that come off of
the turbines.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
The part of me what did you call them the blades,
the turbine blades?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, yes, And I think that from the outside perspective,
some people look at these and they go, oh, it's
all metal and it's all something that it can just
be melted down or reused.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
But it's not. It's fiberglass.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's a combination of materials that cannot be recycled. And
so you talk about one of these blades falling into
the ocean, what is actually once that goes into the ocean.
How quickly does the salt water start to eat away
at that? What kind of chemicals are going into the
ocean When you have something that is made from a
(28:07):
fiberglass material, which we know is highly dangerous, a carcinogen
for a humans, what could it do to ocean life?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And what is the base made of?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
What exactly are we putting in the ocean because we
know on land these cannot be recycled. We're taking them
out to Wyoming, We're digging these massive holes that are
like the size of three football fields and then burying them.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
How is this a good thing?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I know, it's yeah, I agree. The composition of a
turbine is steel, carbon fiber as you mentioned, or fiberglass
on the blades. There are lots of rare earth minerals
and magnet minerals in the rotor toxic you know. You know,
almost the entire thing is non recyclable. So what do
(28:55):
we do with all of these things? And you know,
and they're just enormous. You know, these are just huge machines.
As I mentioned, They're filled with lubricating oil. You know,
they are connected interconnected by high voltage cabling that gets
cloud driven under the ground. And these are big, huge cables.
The amount of damage that happens at the bottom of
the seafloor is unbelievable. And then they have to you know,
(29:18):
travel you know, miles and miles to land. You know,
they're it's just really environmentally to me, I just feel
like this is a very bad trade. Wind is not
a dense product. It's meaning it requires a lot of
land to produce a relatively small amount of energy. You know. Conversely,
and I'm not espousing any kind of energy. I'm not
(29:40):
a I'm not an energy expert, but for example, nuclear
would be the opposite. It's a very dense product. You can,
you know, put a small nuclear reactor on your property
that could power you know, a lot of a lot
of homes. So it just requires less less earth destruction.
And I think because these are in the ocean or
(30:01):
in one of the Great Lakes, that they're not really
in anybody's backyard exactly, so that I think the public
has not had a chance to really think this through
very well. But it will impact everyone. As you said,
there's lighting. They'll be out there for vessel traffic, for
air traffic, they'll be lit all the time. That is
damaging to both animals and frankly to humans. And I
(30:24):
think that one last thing I would just say is
that the human environment matters. Also. It's important to be
able to sit at the Great Lakes and look out
and just see a horizon, or at the ocean and
just see a horizon. That's important for the human environment
to have that ability as well. And you know, it's
why we protect things, you know, we have you know,
(30:45):
you know, I don't know the geography in Michigan well enough.
But Nantucket, for example, the entire island is a National
Historic Landmark. This changes that. You know, would we stick these,
you know, in the middle of Williamsburg, Virginia or would
they stick these around the and canyon? You know, we
should treasure the things that we have and really think
these things through, really well before we make such a pivot.
(31:08):
My guess is a lot of these projects will get
built and then and I don't think that in fifty
years we're going to be having this discussion about offshore wind.
I think we'll have moved on. There'll be a better technology.
I think it'll be before that, frankly, But and then,
what who's paying to pull all of these things out
of the ground and where they're going? I can tell
(31:28):
you that, you know, they they have waived the mandate
for some of these projects, certainly the first one that's
being built off in Nantucket right now, they've waived the
mandate for the wind companies to ask grow funds to decommission.
So who's going to do that? They say, it costs
as much to decommission as it does to build. And
then and where do we put them? So I just
(31:49):
think this is a kind of a fool's errant, an
expensive to the environment, and an expensive financially fools errant.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And I think to your point as I was reading
about this, when I started reading about the amount of
lighting that it takes to put them in because you
have to have massive ships, and I don't think people
really understand. It's not like someone goes out there on
a dinghy and puts a light post in the ocean.
You have to have massive ships. It's going to be
(32:17):
a huge building process in the ocean. So you're polluting
the ocean with the ships that are out there. You
also are spending a massive amount of time out there
with with lighting that changes the whole course of the ocean.
The ocean is used to being, you know, the creatures
in the ocean are used to the darkness at night
and to be able to live their lives the way
they always have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
This is this is going to have a huge effect.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
That it doesn't happen overnight and then you come and
decommission and it's the same thing. And that's what made
me think of the gentleman from National Geographic who said, hey,
when we put up these big white lights, it has
a great effect on our environment.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That you aren't thinking about.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I think to myself, well, why wouldn't this do
the same thing in the ocean.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
There's so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
To just think about this to not And again I
just want to reiterate this is not a partisan discussion.
This is about protecting wildlife. And you talked about the
human aspect of the need to come out and see
the ocean, to decompress, to have that mental space and
(33:22):
that absorbing nature. We know how important that is. But
I just last thing. I know I said last thing,
but last thing I want to say. I want to
ask you about when you talk about the amount of
voltage that is going coursing through all of these lines
and all of these big turbines out in the ocean,
(33:42):
that seems to me like there would be a constant
vibration out there. So even though I mean, you have
the turbines moving, but even as that's coursing underground, what
is that doing?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Yeah, so you know there's not I don't have a
lot of research on that. We do know, we have
seen a study that was done in the UK with
offshore with offshore wind and the EMFs, the electromagnetic frequency
that comes off that type of cabling and they've attributed
(34:16):
the malformation of lobsters that they're seeing to that. You know,
these animals live on the bottom of the ground, and
these EMFs are being emitted. The cabling can't be veried
very deep, you know, which is odd, but when you
think about it, they emit a lot of heat and
so they need to be cooled by the water, and
so they're really only five or six feet deep, which
(34:40):
means they are fairly close to the surface. And you know,
they also the substations emit I can't remember the number gallons,
but they in order to keep things cool part of
the process. And again I'm not an energy expert. I
don't know exactly how this works, but you know, daily
like millions of gallons of really hot water is you know,
(35:04):
is water is cycled through the substation and then dumped
into the ocean much too warm. I mean, we're worried
about you know, global warming and temperatures rising in the
ocean for animals where we're just going to do it
ourselves and it'll be very very warm. Yeah, So it's
all of these concerns. You know, it's just it's sort
of one thing after the next, and you know, we
(35:26):
our organization did file a lawsuit. I don't think we
mentioned that against you know, the pure of Ocean Energy
Management and you know a fisheries that the agencies that
are responsible for the permitting process for the Vineyard Wind project,
which is the first the nation's first offshore wind projective
is offman took it. We were in federal Kielsport two
(35:47):
weeks ago and we're hoping to press forward with this.
You know, we just think that they know, you know,
in a nutshell, the lawsuit is, hey, US government, you're
not really following your own endangered species and our protection
laws should be. And you know that things needed to
be more third. So we're really hoping to get get
some traction there and have everybody stop. You know, we
(36:08):
really like it's just people to stop and take a
better look at all of this. You know, they never
consider the impacts, the cumulative impacts. There will be a
lot of projects that occur in that area. And you're
saying that it sounds like there would be twenty four
hundreds or buying. You know, that is a big area,
you know, off the Atlantic they're putting these things. There'll
be each one will take about a square miles. So
(36:31):
you're talking twenty four hundred miles. I mean, think about that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Good.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Agree, that's like twice the state of size the state
of Rhode Island. What you're talking about there, these are.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
How many whales has it been so far that you've seen,
you know, they are there.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It's been up and down the coast. You know, Nantucket
would be a small target to hit, you know, so
it's a little teeny island, but they and you know,
these whales migrate the North Atlantic great whale for example.
You know, it goes up and down the coast these
last three hundred and forties, so New Jersey and New
York have sort of been ground zero. It seems like
lots of them have shown there over the last just
(37:08):
way too many. And you know, it's these are huge beests.
They play a very important role in the ecosystem in
the ocean. They actually are Mother Nature's way of squestering
carbon dioxide, you know, whale FECs so are really feed
the basis of the entire food chain out there. So
they play a really vital role. You were talking about
(37:29):
the bees. It's you know, these are a big species
with big species with little feces. There are lots of
little feces, but that really are important. So, you know,
I think we need to really consider the impacts here
when when you start messing with mother nature on one
end of it or another, the ramifications can be enormous.
And you know, I think we just need to be
(37:50):
more responsible. And I'm really glad that you're taking a
look at this in Michigan. And you know, we've been
contacted from by groups in California, from the Golfer. This
is a concern all over the country and I think
that you know it's it's important that the discussion continues.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Well, I appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I know you've called it a David versus Goliath issue,
and it absolutely is. And I know the attacks that
you guys are under. I know they've gone after you
and they've said terrible things and they're trying to get
you shut down, and it speaks volumes about your character
that you don't stop.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Amy Decibio.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I'm so grateful that you came on today, and I'm
so grateful that you continue to fight for this.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Thank you so much, Thank you, tutor.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
It's a pleasure. Have a good day.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yes, thank you, and thank you all for joining us
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast for this episode and others.
As always, you can go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com
and subscribe right there, or head over to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and join
us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Have a blessing,
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