August 21, 2025 • 48 mins
Alessandro Palombo is a global expert in citizenship strategy, residency optimization, and the intersection of Bitcoin and personal sovereignty. In this episode, we explore how high-net-worth individuals are navigating global uncertainty with a new playbook—leveraging Bitcoin and flag theory to unlock a permissionless life. We dig into how the rise of machine-driven economies, overreaching governments, and outdated governance structures are creating a new class divide: landlords vs. renters. Alessandro shares why now—especially if your net worth exceeds $1M—is the time to build your "freedom stack," diversify across jurisdictions, and secure optionality for you and your family. From Portugal’s Bitcoin-backed golden visa program to the evolution of Europe’s flat tax regimes, Alessandro breaks down actionable strategies for preserving wealth, accessing global mobility, and achieving true sovereignty in the AI age. Whether you're a Bitcoin believer, a sovereign individual in the making, or simply preparing for the future, this is a must-listen conversation.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are living right now, Mark in using governance structures
that are at least two hundred years old. We still
vote with a piece of paper. Maybe in the i
AH there will be landlords and renters leandlords like the
machine owners that really own the machine, and the machines
are producing actually almost eighty percent eventually of the goods
and services. So it may view in twenty twenty five now,
(00:21):
but even in five years, if you are anything north
of one million personal network, you should prioritize considering implementing
on yourself this freedom stack. Permissionless life at this point
means get the documents that enables you to travel, leave,
do business, access to healthcare in as many countries as possible.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
How do you see the ability to sort of stay
flexible and move around these times? All right? Ali, So
I want to talk about all things wealth, money, making money,
investing money, but also living our best life. I travel
all over the world, and you're sort of European contact.
Let's talk about wealth in general before we get into
(01:03):
money in ways we can use our money to increase
our wealth. But when I think about Europe from an
American viewpoint, I see it looks like the European continents
changing quite a bit. Some areas, maybe like in Paris
the UK, seem to be getting very dangerous. Other areas
seem to be getting racing more freedom and becoming safer.
(01:24):
What's going on over there in Europe from your standpoint,
and how we should sort of look at the living
and traveling to these different areas.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's a great question mark. I'm very excited to be
here and trying to you know, naviate you and actually
our listeners to in this topic. So, first and foremost,
Europe it's not a single country. So I always remark
these to my American friends because sometimes you may say, oh, yeah, December,
I go to Europe. Okay, yes, but it depends. You
(01:53):
can go literally in den American and maybe having a
more chilling experience in your summer, or you can come
in south of Europe and having a text as alike,
you know, temperature. So Europe is right now twenty seven
from a European Union perspective, twenty seven member states, and
every member state is a different story. Now we have
some commonalities for sure, but we are even culturally a
(02:16):
bit different. And in my view, this is both the
strength and the weakness from any perspective, it's fragmentation, and
it's in my view from an American standpoint and global standpoint.
That's also the power of Europe because we have so
much diversity within our I would say in our geopolitical
continent Europe that you can find literally everything. So if
(02:36):
you like to surf, like you for example, well Portugal
for sure, or even the South of friend France. Apparently
it's one of the best pots ever Italy. It's an
amazing place for if you want to have great food
and enjoy the beach, but you won't find I've never
heard any Italian friend doing that much surfing in it,
So yeah, it's a very diversified you know, environment and
(02:59):
the UK off the Brexit, of course, went out from
the European Union, and this is another macro topic because
they had a unique opportunity of becoming this sort of
Delaware or Singapore of Europe and unfortunately until now they're struggling.
I'm writing about these topics very often, so I might
be to I can dive in in from so many
angles up to you, what do you find?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
More specifically, for my audience, who are investors and we're
trying to build wealth, and we're trying to navigate our
wealth and our and our freedom. I think about the
way that these nations are changing, and specifically more around
the political climate, maybe also the populace as well, and
it's changing rapidly, like areas that used to be safe
(03:40):
are now dangerous, areas that were dangerous are now getting safer.
But also tax rates are changing rapidly, So now nations
are cranking up the tax rates to trying to create
exit taxes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And so when it comes.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
To building wealth and then really, like I said, navigating wealth,
I think it's important for me to understand what's going on,
so I could be prepared to navigate around that. If
they're going to put some massive wealth tax, unrealized capital
gains tax, I might want to leave and move my
tax jurisdiction to another country. If they're going to pass
(04:11):
some policies and political policies that I think could put
myself in danger or area I wouldn't want to live,
I would probably want to move. And so I guess
that's sort of more the angle I was coming from.
I know, you help people think through those things and
sort of where we're aligned. Is this flag theory, right?
You wouldn't put all your money in one stock. Why
(04:33):
do you have all your life in the hands of
one country when you could diversify and move your tax
base and move your voting base and move your asset
base and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
One hundred percent. And this is somehow not so well,
none expecially from Americans. But within Europe there are very
powerful tax exemption methodologies. So let me give you an
overview so you can map it out. Portugal until actually
one year ago it had a so called NHR system.
Right now the new NHR improperly actually called this effichi.
(05:06):
Long story short. With proper conditions, you can pay zero
foreign income for ten years, but right now you need
to have a local employment agreement in a eligible profession.
So Portugal, which is a very cool place where to live,
still can be for ten years, upon several conditions, a
great tax spot. And this is great because you know,
intra Europe in general, even helpinging bank accounts in a
(05:28):
different country and so far and strown, it's quite simple,
so Portugal could be on the map Spain. Always be
careful about Spain and Italy because sometimes theory in practice differ.
So with that disclaimer and caveat in mind, Spain has
the so called regime of the Backham law that can
give you a specific you know, advantage in terms of
foreign income for six years if I'm not wrong, and
(05:49):
many have chosen Spain for this reason. Italy, if you
are an ultra network individual, guys, my take mark is
right now, it's the best place word to be. But
you need to be. Probably with my family sometimes we
make this joke, you know, we aim to go back
to the using this flat tax system. It works this way,
so you pay two hundred thousand euro every year and
(06:11):
you have essentially a flat tax for you and your family.
There are more nuances, but I don't want to make
this two boring. The key piece of information is that
this regime guarantees you these numbers for fifteen years one
to five. And if you think that you can live
in Rome Million or Tuscany and pay two hundred k
every year and that's it, that sounds like magic. So
in my view right now, if you are maybe everything
(06:31):
north out of ten million, maybe of early income, it
may be it's a no brainer because you have an
incredible quity of life and so many other benefits. Malta
Cyprus tale also potentially very good places for taxi utimization reasons,
and in general this is the primary list. Of course,
if you look from a geographical perspective, Monoco is historically
(06:51):
right the zero income place in Europe. It's probably the
place with aldest money, I would say, in general, and
each one of the place has so many nuances and
it's never easy because Europe it is of course very
serious in terms of regulation. But yeah, you can have
your space of freedom leveraging properly. In the end, these
systems and these systems are built on a busy principle.
(07:12):
Every country wants to protract wealth and copy and talent.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Of course, do they really, because what I see the
UK just passed the largest tax increases since nineteen ninety three,
and when I see that happen, I see lots of
wealthy people saying they're going to leave the country. As
a matter of fact, in the UK, I see one
of the major banks reveal that they are potentially going
(07:36):
to pull out and move out of the country because
of the tax increases. So you say that they all
want to attract this, but it seems like the policies
like the UK is doing and historically has shown that
when they do these they're actually driving those people out
of the country.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's a great angle and the great point some countries,
and depending on the police, I would say cycle they
adopt the right legislation, the right the right framework where
they want, they are capable of attracting with benefits specific
target of population in the same precise moment. Other countries
go the other way around, and that's what caust for example,
(08:15):
the exodus from Norway. Norway also introduced from a specific
arealized capital gain taxation. Australia is considering to introduce, for
above a certain threshold irealized capital taxes, and in my view,
is the best way to kill an economy and to
make your wealthy people actually escape from you. Is taxing
that that should be legally and constitutional, is my personal opinion.
(08:35):
For the UK, we assisted to this so called UK
exoduce and I read, actually I wrote a post that
probably ten days ago whatever a lot of people moved
from London to Milan. So what my interpretation, but it
is open to discussion. I would like to hear your
point of view. In my view, the real key point
is that we don't know how the world even next
year or in five years or in ten years will evolve,
(08:57):
and it's a constant change. It will never remain stable.
So today maybe one country is optimus for you, Tomorrow
it won And in these eternal dents, I would say
it's a sort of ballot of Essentially, there is an
intrinsic tension between individual freedom and eventually government outreach. And
in this tension that moves constantly. In my view, there
is this this whole movement of let's call it a
(09:19):
sortn individuals, sort in collective people, lovers of freedom and
so far instrument.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, and you mentioned a couple of really good cases.
Here in the United States, it's similar. Obviously, we have
the federal taxes we have to deal with, but like
during COVID, for example, New York and California tried to
be the most aggressive, did try. They were the most
aggressive as far as the rules and regulations they put
people in during that time. But also those two states
have the highest tax rates, and so we saw a
(09:44):
massive exodus out of New York and people went down
to Florida where it was both more free and there's
no state taxes. Wall Street was leaving in mass to
go down to Florida. Same with California. Everyone left California,
a lot of people went to Texas again, a place
that was more free and has no taxes. And so
we see this happening more and more. And I think
(10:05):
you bring up a really good point, which is these
policies are changing so fast we don't know what it's
going to be in the next couple of years, which
is why I think it's important to sort of think
ahead and sort of be able to plan for these
changes as they come about.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
So I guess, I mean, how do you see this
shaping up and how do you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
See the ability to sort of stay flexible and move
around in these times?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Great? Great take, and to answer me to your question.
To your question, in my view, what I've seen multiple
times from tech founders, alternate working individuals, investors, also more
traditional real estate people. And I also had I get
got there for various reasons with my personal life and strategy.
I lived in Italy for many years and I did
(10:54):
my old career and became a qualified as a lawyer.
I made the PhD, said that I would never thought
to be my country until that moment. And then for
startups reason, I found the different companies. I started traveling,
and when I started traveling, I inevitably started having in
multiple jurisdiction companies, regulated entities, bank accounts and so far
and so on. When you, with your own experience you
(11:15):
touch this, I would say, lifestyle, you realize sometimes that ultimately,
in twenty twenty five, do borders really represent an obstacle
for your own freedom and for your own planning for
your family? I would say they don't, and they should not.
And that's very important for me because let's take examples Canada.
The Canadian approach with COVID, it was objectively, over strictly
(11:38):
and crazy. I was in Dubai at the time. We
barely only at this at the end we had lockdowns,
et cetera. So my take and my strong advice is
every case is unique, but in general terms, you should
get exposure to different jurisdictions in terms of citizenship, residiency,
bank account, business setups and so far and so on.
(11:59):
Why because arbit you know, in most of the markets,
in the traditional and not rational sense, are forms of arbitrash.
And if you think of yourself and your family, you
want to put yourself and your family in the best
spot no matter what, and you want to be able
to choose every single time. So, in my view, in
twenty twenty five now, but even in five years, if
(12:19):
you are anything north of one million personal network, you
should prioritize considering implementing on yourself this freedom stack, at
least maybe with an additional residency, and if you can
afford it, maybe with a second citizenship, and why not
maybe trying to open a bank account in a different
place so you distribute your access to your control to
your own wealth, and so far and sorong. So this
(12:41):
is in my interpretation of how to optimize your family
future in my view, and I would just want to
make one remark. I when I refer to these things,
I am thinking both of web preservation, but at the
same time I'm also thinking of I'm a big believer
that money and taxes are part of a broader event
scheme of optimizing the capability of expressing yourself, and the
(13:04):
same for your kids. What I'm trying to say is
that it's not just doing the right trust set up
for your kid with ten million in it's also putting
them in condition to express themselves depending on their preferences
of their passion and so far and so on, and
from an objectively, at this point, geography in an interconnected
world should not be an obstacle. And in my view,
what is the key problem and why we're talking about
(13:26):
these topics. We are living right now, mark in using
governance structures that are at least two hundred of years old.
We still vote with a piece of paper, and the
world at this point is fully digital. So there is
a friction between old systems and current reality, and that's
what we need to delivery day with That's a.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Really good point.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I talk about that often, how we were sort of
trained in the school system that was set up for
the industrial era, and we've been given industrial ara tools.
But now we're in this new age through the information age,
now maybe into the intelligence age with AI. So how
do we deal with that mismatch of government that's no
longer a government structure that's no longer sort of relevant
(14:07):
in the world that we live in today.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Great question, and I completely agree also with the example
of the you know, the school methodology I learned to personally.
I can translate still from Latin ancient lating in Greek,
but I intee twent seventeen my English was pretty much
at zero. So and of course there are pros and
cons in everything, but I think I think the right
recipe is sometimes we need to de learn some some
(14:33):
or we need to unlearn sorry, certain principles when they
become an obstacle to ourselves. And in my view, we
need to think of citizenship residency in different terms, in
terms of effective, you know, effectiveness and strategy. So in
my view, you need to deal. You need to sit
down as you do financial planning, as you do as
you potentially you know, want to say that you want
(14:54):
to improve your you know, your physical captabilities for a
specific sport that can be served, can be gym, whatever,
and do a plan with a personal trainer you do
you exercise every day, and the same for eventually, you know, mindfulness.
Let's say that you want to increase your stability and
you and you're your emotional side, and you do maybe
coaching on that side. I find incredible. Today we do
(15:15):
eventually financial planning, but we don't do any efforts sometimes
in diversifying our from a geographical and geopolitical point our freedom.
So in my view, we need to take these matters seriously.
And I'm not technically a consultant I have. I promote
a fund, I created a fan structure, but I'm dealing
and from a product perspective, I see these and help
many families in funding their solution. I think everyone should
(15:38):
take seriously in consideration this matter, because sometimes it's not
You don't need ten millions or one million to invest
in a country to get a citizenship. You can start
with much less. I know a lot of I've been
this week and at an event of a friend of mine.
We're actually after which we met actually our common friend
that we were referring to Alex and there were some
(16:00):
any guys the younger nineteen year old and this guy
has one million followers on Instagram and he's already aware
of these issues and getting a Paraguay and in this
case residency and studying towards that direction. So my best
advice is put on your map at least this area.
Maybe today you don't have the tools for solving it
the equation, but you should put in your own strategic
(16:22):
map this area as a foundational one for yourself. And
also it's very funny because sometimes you know, we all
live in our city, in our country. Traveling opens your
mind gives you more wider business opportunities and so far
and from so start thinking of it in order to
be able to ask for assistance and build your own plan.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah, I think about you know, how the world changed
and sort of back to that industrial era versus the
information age, and the internet has now, as you said earlier,
sort of connected us.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And so now we travel a lot more.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And I think we've gone from obviously the big factories
and then we still have the small mom and pops,
but those are you know, brick and mortar businesses that
can't easily move. But now today we have the rise
of the gig economy and people working remotely. Digital nomads
is rising, and I think that's really escalating this. But
I also think about bitcoin, and so with bitcoin, it's
like I think about something I refer too often, and
(17:15):
it's sort of this frame I think from is permissionless
money for permissionless life. And so when you don't need
permission for your money, when you have a borderless money,
then do I need permission for my life? Can I
just do things? Even in a sense where like one
(17:37):
of my sisters is a doctor, One of my sisters
has a medical practice, but isn't a doctor, but hired doctors.
And then my daughter just became a health coach, but
she's not a doctor and she's my sister that's a doctor.
Is upset because not upset, but a little bit upset
that my daughter who's this health coach can work with
(17:58):
clients anywhere in the country and do all these things
that she, as a doctor, can't do because she hasn't
informission for So it's like we can just learn skills,
and we can just take this to the market, and
we can just have a money that gives us as
permissional life, and we can just move to Portugal or Brazil.
And so is that sort of a frame that you
think through? And how do you talk to clients about.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That great angle? I think I think in these terms.
Let me try. Let's see if I address this question
and I exhausted it correctly. So you are surely familiar
with this sort of individual book, and we are all
familiar with the main thesis so information age. Eventually, the
(18:40):
initial thesis was with digetization or a cyber economy, we
all would have been more free compared to yesterday. In
my view, mark we went the opposite way around so
we experienced it. Government's having actually another reach and an
over goodory approach. The more the economy has been digitized,
the more eventually regulation and boundaries have been digitized eventually
(19:04):
before the technology was ready Europe until now. Things may change,
but until now Europe has been atrocious, terrible in this.
They regulated things before they were reality, before they were economy.
So in this world, I think having access to permissionless
money is the step one. So everyone at this point
should have. This is not a financial advice, but part
(19:25):
of their portfolio exposed to bitcoin in whichever matter, partially
mediaf partially I always advise called storage. We always, you know,
we all ask advice the same thing, but the thing
is permission and money, maybe up to five percent, depending
of course on everyone preferences and permissional less permissionless life
at this point means get the documents that enables you
(19:47):
to travel, leave, do business, access to healthcare in as
many countries as possible. Because we don't know how the
world will change and on the on the AI impact
on the next ten and twenty years of economy. I
would like to express my perspective, which is potentially ambrong.
So maybe these won't age well. In ten years Summer
(20:08):
will resurrect this video. But in my view, the world
is going to change in crazy manners that we can't predict.
Nobody can predict, including the best RAND team in the
world under Black Rock all Maan Saks. Nobody can predict it,
which means maybe in the IH there will be landlords
and renters. Landlords like the machine owners that really own
(20:28):
the machine, and the machines are producing actually almost eighty
percent eventually off the goods and services, and they will
become richer and richer, and eventually it will be renters.
Those ones probably leading out of UBI or digital credits,
sort of new mechanics for ensuring minimum you know, lively
to anyone. And in my view, we're going towards a polarization.
(20:49):
So there will be either Rolls Royce with handmade crafting
cards or maybe mass market created Tesla's and Sofar or
Bad or whatever else. The middle is going to die.
So if this is the general trajectory, because I need
to be high level, I can't zoom in because we
don't know how the things will evolve. My advice is
(21:10):
don't give for granted that the current state of the
geo politics will remain as is right now, Europe is
the place where launching a business is a terrible idea.
Today it's terrible, you should not do it. But my
provocation for you is maybe mark in ten years, in
fifteen years in Europe has assets that can't be machine
(21:30):
replicated because we have a lot of culture and things
that don't work, but they are beautiful, and maybe beauty
and authenticity will be the new currency in the IE age.
So if that's the trajectory, what today we give for
granted may be actually maybe doing a one hundred d
degree change. So my thesis is I'm not going to
tell you how the future necessary will look like, but
(21:51):
I'm very very convinced and o being read in telling
you that the level of risk of not understanding where
we are going in the next ten years brings to
ida conclusion we need to get an edge, including on Europe,
including on Middle Least Asia and so far and so on.
And this doesn't mean to eventually be philosophically anti patriotic,
because in my view, the concept of national and the
(22:12):
concept of state is going to well has it already
evolved in different manners, so we can be nationalist we
can love our nation even without being living our life
in the boundaries of our specific state.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, that's a good thesis. I haven't really thought about
it like that, but it makes perfect sense. And it's
something I talk about quite often, which is sort of
in this age of AI where everything is to your point,
sort of mass produced. I think it's typically about like
from a content angle, and now it's you know, writing content,
it's making videos, all these things. And so now we're
starting to see the shift where people are purposely making
videos that are very rough and raw and rugged.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
That can't be created by AI.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And so to your point about sort of some of
this culture and beauty coming back, I like that. Let's
talk about bitcoin for a minute, because permissionless money for
mentionless life. How would you say that you see what
is if people are underestimating about pecoins potential to disrupt
the financial world and really sort of usher in this
new age.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Also, this one is a great question. So I want
to bring in a unique angle in the sense of
I'm picking up something maybe more European. So I hope
Americans listening, you know, they find it is more interesting.
So I believe that we have been all used and
accustomed to have a sort of sense of hyper respect
(23:35):
for institutions. Let me glorify respect for institutions for private
or publicly owned, family, state, nation. They are very important
and I think they should be the bedrock of our
society forever. But at the same time, we have been
induced to believe that every institution has existed forever. So
when we look at even the history of our country
(23:57):
or of our continent, we believe, yeah, two under the
ars Ago foundaries. Ago they were barbarians. Now we are
by far more evoluted. The reality is that every institution
we live in, including the state, the United South America,
every single state, for example Italy eighteen seventy one, the
foundation of the Italian state Unity of Italy, they are
(24:18):
relatively recent. Banking system is relatively recent, although the primordial
forms actually have a couple of hundreds of centuries. So
what I'm trying to say is we have eventually a
bias of thinking that things won't change. Why because they
have never changed. So I think this is the major
obstacle mark in the mind, especially of smart people, because
(24:42):
sometimes I have this thesis, especially for crypto and bitcoin specifically,
the early adopters are fifty to fifty. Fifty their geniuses
and fifty maybe are a bit above average because sometimes,
right the bigger innovation comes from either the genius or
someone who is completely unaware and maybe is not a culture.
Then that's why his mind is virgin, is a pristine,
(25:06):
so it's capable of thinking something new without following p
existing rules. So I believe that's the obstacle in terms
of understanding bitcoin. If you ask me, what's the obstacle
in terms of adopting bitcoin, which is a different point.
I believe that right now bitcoin has already matured a
higher degree of reputation, but still, to be very frank,
(25:29):
managing a ledger is still something honestly complex, and I
personally believe I don't fry me for this that in
my view, the ETFs are a good vehicle for bringing
people and normal I would say, non specialized capital into bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I would say that what is good like good
is a relative term, and so like with gold, let's
just use gold for example, Like I mean, I can
just buy some gold like a buyer goold coin. I
could throw it at my drawer in my room. If
I have more gold, I probably just don't want it
in my drawer. I might want a safe, and I
have have more gold, I might want to put it
(26:09):
in somebody else's vault. And if I have more gold,
I might want it in a custodian account like an
ETF that then it could be moved easier and I
got more liquidity to it. And so there is no
such thing as good. That's like a blanket for everybody.
And I would think about bitcoin sort of the same way.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's like, if I have a little bit of bitcoin,
I can just put in the wallet on my phone.
If I have more bigcoin, I should put into a
cold wallet. More big wine should probably put into a
multi sig cold wallet. More bitcoin, I might want a
custodian to hold that for me. And so you have
different levels and I can actually utilize all those at
the same time. So I do have some gold in
my safe and a hardware wallet in my safe, right
I do, right, And so I do have gold and
(26:46):
I do have bitcoin in these different areas, and so
there's no such thing as good. And then I think about,
like you know, to your point, I think secure and
bitcoin is extremely easy, but it can become more complex
the more security you need. What happens is if you
don't have the technical ability to do that, you actually
put yourself at more.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Risk by trying to have more security. So it's his paradox.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think you're right, and like I said, I think
there's a case to have it in all of these
locations because you're using it for different purposes.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Why is the words? I agree?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, Okay, let's talk about how all this is changing
and citizenship is sort of be Not only is the
money system changing, but citizenship is changing. And I know
you're specifically helping people get more citizenship. Think about that
(27:38):
moving to different jurisdictions. So let's talk about that for
a minute.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Fantastic, Yeah, of course. Well I would like to take
the opportunity to clarify that citizenship and residency and tax
or feescalary residency. There are three different things, and I
want to bring these in because it's always it seems obvious,
but it's not sorrow. Citizenship means it's like an option.
You have the option to do something, but you don't
(28:04):
have to. You don't have an obligation to Citizenship means
you have certain rights in tier, including the right of
living in a country, but you are not required to
live in that specific country tomorrow or within twelve months.
So citiship is a very powerful, you know, status that
is recognized by a country and it gives you rights
(28:26):
and obligations, not including the one to live in in
a country. Typically, physical residence is eradicated when you spend
a certain amount of time in a specific country, and
this means that typically is one hundred eighty three days.
But there are exceptions. If the US is an exception
in this an exception. So typically half of the year
in one country, like you're in Italy, well you should
(28:46):
at that point pay access to the Italian authorities. They
will tell you Benvenuto, welcome and they wouldn't want to
get your money, okay, so the same for France and Spain.
Citizenship in particular at this point in time can be
obtained via contributions, and contributions to a specific country can
(29:06):
take different forms. One form is, well, I spend my
time and I work there, so I create value locally
into the society. Therefore, for example, if you move to
Germany or Portugal or Spain and you live for five
eight years, depending on the rules for acquiring citizenship, of
after a few years of lawful residency legal residency in
a country, when you provide and contribute to the society meaningfully,
(29:30):
you can apply for citizenship upon for example, knowing a
bit of the language, upon integration, so typically you spend
some time, you learn the language, and then you get
the passport. Now this is one way for contributing to
a country and gain citizenship. There are other ways. Instead
of necessarily living there, so you contribute moving there with
your feet and your energies. You can contribute with money.
(29:52):
Those models in the puristic form are called citizenship by investment.
You invest and therefore you acquire the passport. Now these
forums recently became i would say unappreciated at the European level,
and the Maltese CBI or Cityship Investment program has been abolished.
Now without going too much indeed, because it would be
(30:14):
maybe a bit two technical, what it really matters, Mark.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Is you said, you said, you said multis program got abolished.
Oh yeah, yeah, that was like the best one in
the world, right, it was like a million dollars to invest.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, you should have invested starting well, you should have
donated six hundred and fifty k minimum. But if you
donated seven hundred and fifty, you would have gotten the
passport in a shorter time frame, so you could have
put the money and you lose the money, of course.
And at this, prior to this, you know, to it came,
before it came to an end, there was donation, then
real estate requirements. You should have purchased the hanhause O, rented,
(30:50):
then donated ten k to an NGO and in twelve
or thirty six months passport. So this was the European
CBI Malta, the European Union. Long story short said, hold on,
if you sell your passport as Malta and you're going
to acquire the Malti citizenship, but the factor you're going
to acquire also the European citizenship. And we don't want
(31:13):
someone who pays you Malta and then comes to living
Germany in France, and why why we should allow this?
Now the nuances are a bit more complex, but and
this decision, in my view, ultimately is wrong. So the
European Union should have done something different, should have actually
allowed Malta to sell their citizenship because it's a sovereign state.
It otherwise we have an ipair over each of the
(31:33):
European Union over the sovariety of the Single States, but
the European Union should have be in my view, created
a rebalancing effect so that the economic benefits that Malta received.
Malta collected Mark one point five billion in the in
the revenues because of donations via this route in the
past ten years. One point five billion, and it's a
(31:54):
timey Have you ever been in Malta. Well, it's a
super tiny island, quite nice place, and it's you know,
it's south of Sicily, Italy, so it's literally self of Italy.
It's a tiny island. One point five billion. So this
was the case for CBI right now in Europe is
not allowed anymore, but RBI you residiency by investment is allowed.
(32:17):
So for example, Portugal right now is the best. Why
you can technically invest in There are various routes, but
the simplest is you invest in an eligible fund five
hundred thousand euro and you need to spend only fourteen
days every two years in the country, plus either language
test or online language classes about one hundred and fifty hours,
(32:41):
and after five years you can apply for citizenship. So
this is a different approach to citizenship that is based
on an economic contribution, in this case worth mentioning. It's
not a donation, it's an investment. So if you invest
in the right fund, hopefully you will see a return
of investment. So these are strategies. Now I'm focusing on Europe,
(33:02):
but I can expand if you want, for other countries
or other geographical areas where you can expand your cityship portfolio.
Keeping in mind, as I was telling you a front,
that cityship does not equate to residency or physical residency.
And in the case of Portugal, for example, which is
the probably the program that I'm more actually expert about,
(33:22):
off you don't need to live here, so this means
that you will keep paying taxes wherever you are considered
physically resident. And other countries had these programs. Spain had
a Golden Vision. It got abolished in April twenty twenty five. Cyprus,
Bulgaria also they were CBI programs. They shut down. So
when we were chatting before about tensions and changes, this
(33:45):
matter is constantly changing. So what today is possible, eventually
tomorrow will be restricted or will become a bit more expensive.
Even the Italian flat tax, it was one unther k
per Yer and now it doubled, it's under So from
a web perspective, my very solid I would say recommendation
(34:07):
is when every family or every entrepreneur look at this
area of topics, should always factor in in their decision
making framework the pros and cons the cost, of course,
but at the same time the risk that the same product,
that the same thing, the same strategy will become either
(34:27):
unavailable Malta disappeared, now not available anymore, so you can't
do it, or they will cost much more. So this
is the game, I would say, the key levels of
these industries.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
So you have the ability to buy a citizenship and
then that money is a donation, You give up the
money and the money is gone. Another option is then
to invest into the move there and contribute your time
and energy. Or you can invest there and then that
could be some sort of an investment, a business that
could be real estate, things like that. And then you
(34:58):
want to decide which one you because then those passports
get you certain benefits, and so what you really want
is the most amount of countries you can travel to
visa free.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I'm guessing right.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So that's why Malta was like one of the best
whereas you can do it in the Caribbean Islands, for example,
but then you don't really get access to all the
different countries, and typically you could buy it for less
than you would invest for. And unfortunately, typically when you invest,
you're typically investing into things that maybe aren't.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
The best investments.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Right you have to buy some overpriced real estate that
probably is not going to cash flow or get your
money back out of it at some point.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
That's sort of what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I'm curious though, as far as and I have been
seeing them get more and more expensive over the last
couple of years, probably because there's more people that want them.
I'm curious though. So you said, like Spain got rid
of their Golden visa program. Now you said, like in
Portugal it's a five year process, so I can apply
for it within five years, I can get my citizenship.
But in Spain they abolished it. If I had gotten
(35:54):
that five year residency to citizenship program started before, then
am I still grand father and going through that or
is it over or they're just not accepting new people.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Correct. So in general, when it comes to Europe specifically
in the print, one of the key corollary of the
rule of law implies that new laws can't be retroactive.
These are general principle, but to keep it simple, means
that if you got in in Spain before they changed
the law, you're right, wouldn't be preserved. So these are
(36:29):
general principle that applies more or less in all Europe.
So that's why I always say it's better to be
three days earlier than one single day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Right, Yeah, So tell me about the Golden visa program
in Portugal because it involves bitcoin. So it's not invested
into some overpriced real estate that you can get back
or some business model that could fail. But specifically, I
can move bitcoin into the country. So if I'm already
sitting on bitcoin, I believe in bitcoin, I'm investing in
the bitcoin for the long term, then this could be
(36:59):
a fit.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Absolutely. Let me let me tell you what we what
we built. So we built a bitcoin ecosystem Golden Visa fund.
This means that in essence, we created a bitcoin treasury
company and the fund owned by the fund, and the
fund invests in the bitcoin treasury company. So the ultimate
exposure is on bitcoin via a commercial company in Portugal.
(37:25):
We pay access here with the company and we provide
two investors a clear pathway to both get exposure to
bitcoin and directly and at the same time to qualify
for the Golden Visa. And there is a direct contribution
in the country, and we also are quite active. We
try to position Portugal on the tech and bid the
bitcoin movement mark I would say worldwide, and we do
(37:48):
our best for having a soid footprint in the country
and this model achieved well major success mark so far.
We will be able to attract many investors, some them
well known, and we are quite proud of pioneering this model.
So the difference has been typically these companies where the
funds invest maybe they hold real estate tassets and now
(38:10):
in Portugal is not anymore possible. The law explicitly exclude
real estate from the areas of eligible investment. So this
is the model we have created and we need to
technically the fund technically can receive Fiat money by loan,
so we can help people to exchange bitcoin immediately for Fiat.
The fund received Fiat allocates in the company, but the
(38:34):
legal requirement is technically at least the Fiat should money
Euro should eat the local bank account.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Okay, so then you see fiat money. We send dollars
or whatever currency that we're using, and then the fund
buys by cooin with those dollars.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Specifically, the fund with most of the money buys or
loans money to the company, and the company is a
bitcoin treasury company buy s bitcoin via atfs because it's
the most secure, secure way, and we provide of course
full transparency at the fund level, at the company level.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So then by proxy, basically the funds that I send
over are sitting in a bitcoin. And then in five years,
however bitcoin goes up, that's how much my investment goes up.
And then in five years, once I get my citizenship,
I can get my money back if I want, and
I get the gains of what bitcoin went up during
that period.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yes, we actually apply ten percent of performance fee. So
in principle, say that there is one million of profit
on your own allocation you take in an entred k,
we take ten percent.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Okay, okay, one under k.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
But rather than investing in some other type of thing
that has all types of operational risk and unknown risks
that I might be don't even understand. If I'm a
long term bitcoin investor, then basically I have it's like
sort of like buying an ETF.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
In a roundabout way. I understand there's technical difficulty, technical details, but.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, technically and legally it's it's a fun investment. But
let me make this analogy. There is a fund investing
in a company which trades looks for the cars. Look
looks for the cars. So practically the investor is investing
in the look it looks through the cars. They can
be vintage Ferrari, Vintach, Porsche. In our case, we don't,
of course, at any level investing in vintage cars. We
(40:23):
have a specific mandate. We are a bit conical system
focused and therefore we buy and maintain a position only
in bitcoin because we are an active player of conical system.
So from this perspective, yes, it's like if you are,
of course with a different structure, with a different meaning
and with a different ownership, but you get exposure to bitcoin,
and we try to do our best to make sure
(40:44):
that at any level, at least for what is visible,
we guarantee the most efficiency and the most long term
solidity for this model.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
All right, So you know, we've covered a lot of
ground from sort of shaping the future of technology and
how ami shape things and freedom is changing, and how
bitcoin is also helping the usher that in what would
you say, one big idea about freedom in this sort
of new tech driven world is sort of top of
mind that our listeners should take away from this.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
My very strong idea of freedom and the main rationale
that brought me in creating this opportunity with Leasership is
in using bitcoin as an asset, as a network, as
a technology, as a movement, and directly so if we
put away all the legal matters and the legal technicalities
from a philosophic standpoint, we are using we are both
(41:39):
contributing to the bitcoin movement and using bitcoin as a
tool for freedom for yourself, your family, for getting an
arbitrash across jurisdictions. And we are going to be the
team building similar solutions as soon as they are made
available by legal frameworks everywhere in the world. Because I
believe that bitcoin treasuries can be an interesting direct and
(42:00):
your market rights right about these very frequently. But at
the same time I believe that bitcoin treasuries can be
really used also as a tool for enabling a higher
degree of freedom to people. So this is the in
my view, the big kind of idea of freedom in
this modern world. In my view, bitcoin means freedom, especially
because of how technologically built, especially in the eye age,
(42:23):
and using bitcoin companies the bitcoin ecosystem for acquiring residencies
meaningfully for yourself and your family. I think this really
represents the highest form of freedom in my view.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And you know what I should have I should have
opened up with this. But my path to buying bitcoin
in twenty fifteen was that I was reading a newsletter
at the time called Sovereign Man, and it was about
being a sovereign man and having multiple multiple passports. And
I was working with someone and has a network in
Panama to open up a trust in Panama so I
could open up a bank account there.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
And if I open up a bank acount and put enough.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Money in there, they would allow me to have a
citizenship program, or I should say, a residency program that
would lead the citizenship.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And so I had already met with the attorney.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We were in the process of setting this up, and
I had taken another look at bitcoin. I'd heard about
it for a couple of years. I took another look
at and I said, wait a minute, this is what
I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get money out
of the banking system, the US banking system. I could
just buy bitcoin. It's the same thing. And it was
all about the freedom that I wanted that led me
to bitcoin, and this is basically the same thing. It's
(43:30):
sort of the same way. It's instead of putting fiat
dollars into another country to go to a residency citizenship,
this is the way that I can use my bitcoin
that I have now to increase my freedom and a
lot quicker.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
So I love that. It's a great way to think
about that.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Can I add one point that it's a bit controversial,
but I truly believe in this angle. So in this
specific case, mark to be very frank. So when you
eat problem market feet and you go viral, usually there
must be a reason. And people in general and on
enverage ones, they are intelligent. So if a product really
works and someone from scratch we raised an important amount
(44:06):
of money, I scaled my own account as you as
you know next very very fast. It means that you
created something on multiple layers valid. So there is one
layer that nobody really emphasizes enough. Now, Portugal is a
strategically it's becoming a tech cup specifically Lispon and Portugal
is a neutral place culturally in Europe because everyone speaks English,
so you can come here, you can enjoy the time.
(44:27):
And they have this very balanced model where yeah, you
need to learn a bit of language tow line classes,
you need to still spend time in the country. So
it's a legit model. And when you want to put
your money somewhere, especially in this area, you don't want
the shortcut. You want a serious opportunity. And Portugal is
a serious country. It's a serious process, and we created
this here because within this serious regime, in my view,
(44:49):
you get not only the Portugale serious remarket. The real
value my view is first getting an edge on accountry
that in my view is going to place itself more
and more as an innovative country in in Europe. And secondly,
over the years, think of your kids. You can get
the passport for sending your kid in France to learn
to study fashion or maybe in ten years the East
(45:10):
Europe I truly believe. So It's tube will be an
economic engine in ten fifteen years and even more than today.
And opportunities are even now right there. Say that your
son wants to launch a company, it will be able
to operate because it will be European citizen. So the
key point that I wanted to remark in terms of
freedom is in my view, within our offering. But I'm
not doing a sales pitch. It's a more philosophical analysis
(45:33):
on freedom. In my view, Europe is very criticized, and
I'm the first one in criticizing Europe so much. But
at the same time, the reason why it's in effective
fragmentation is the reason why to get exposure here to
twenty seven different economic, cultural, societal systems. It's an incredible
opportunity and it will not be available in six twelve
(45:55):
twenty four months in the current terms. So this is
why I personally believe very much in what you offering,
and I think that this is a fair offering, especially
for the countries that allow these systems to happen, and
in the I would say, in the larger scheme schemes
of in the in what from a proder perspective, in
(46:16):
my view, in the grand scheme of things, I think
this is also a maneuver that European countries, in my view,
they should accelerate also to welcome valuable wealth, wealthy, but
also talent tools individuals and not only be open to
legal immigration.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
So you brought up a good point that brings a question.
So you talk about if my kids want to move
to Europe and start a business. So if someone were
to buy this golden visa, or I should say not
buy it, but invest into a country to receive the
golden visa, then that includes the entire family.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yes, that's correct, and that's crucial. So you need to
pay a bit more for legal fees, governmental fees, and
every program is a bit different. In Portugal, you can
even in actually bring in automatically your parents if and
actually if they are below sixty above sixty five years old.
If they are below there it's a bit more complex.
(47:12):
You need to prove they their financially dependent from you.
But even your parents and your kids siblings are not allowed.
So this is critical because if you have two kids,
three kids, essentially you can give to your own old
family new opportunity and a new debil an.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
There are other places like in the Caribbean, if you
were to bypassports, you have to buy those extra ones,
so it starts starts adding up. If you have a
lot of kids, and this is great.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I'm gonna go ahead.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
We're gonna make sure that we link to all this
information down below. It's something that you should definitely check out.
We'll put a link to it down below. Whatever you're doing,
think about your freedom, because man, the world is changing
super fast and you need I say, the way that
we beat uncertainty is with optionality, and so we need
as many options as we can because we don't know
(47:57):
how the world's gonna change, and this is this one
way you can do it. So we'll link to that
down below. Anything else that people should be paying attention to.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Everything else, No, I think, look, we covered thank you
so much for this interview. I think we covered all
these different topics and they are very very interesting. I
think we covered the more or less everything. So thank
you so much, and I think this was super interesting.
I hope we'll receive positive commands and questions. Of course.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
All right, thanks so much,
We are living right now, Mark in using governance structures
that are at least two hundred years old. We still
vote with a piece of paper. Maybe in the i
AH there will be landlords and renters leandlords like the
machine owners that really own the machine, and the machines
are producing actually almost eighty percent eventually of the goods
and services. So it may view in twenty twenty five now,
(00:21):
but even in five years, if you are anything north
of one million personal network, you should prioritize considering implementing
on yourself this freedom stack. Permissionless life at this point
means get the documents that enables you to travel, leave,
do business, access to healthcare in as many countries as possible.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
How do you see the ability to sort of stay
flexible and move around these times? All right? Ali, So
I want to talk about all things wealth, money, making money,
investing money, but also living our best life. I travel
all over the world, and you're sort of European contact.
Let's talk about wealth in general before we get into
(01:03):
money in ways we can use our money to increase
our wealth. But when I think about Europe from an
American viewpoint, I see it looks like the European continents
changing quite a bit. Some areas, maybe like in Paris
the UK, seem to be getting very dangerous. Other areas
seem to be getting racing more freedom and becoming safer.
(01:24):
What's going on over there in Europe from your standpoint,
and how we should sort of look at the living
and traveling to these different areas.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's a great question mark. I'm very excited to be
here and trying to you know, naviate you and actually
our listeners to in this topic. So, first and foremost,
Europe it's not a single country. So I always remark
these to my American friends because sometimes you may say, oh, yeah, December,
I go to Europe. Okay, yes, but it depends. You
(01:53):
can go literally in den American and maybe having a
more chilling experience in your summer, or you can come
in south of Europe and having a text as alike,
you know, temperature. So Europe is right now twenty seven
from a European Union perspective, twenty seven member states, and
every member state is a different story. Now we have
some commonalities for sure, but we are even culturally a
(02:16):
bit different. And in my view, this is both the
strength and the weakness from any perspective, it's fragmentation, and
it's in my view from an American standpoint and global standpoint.
That's also the power of Europe because we have so
much diversity within our I would say in our geopolitical
continent Europe that you can find literally everything. So if
(02:36):
you like to surf, like you for example, well Portugal
for sure, or even the South of friend France. Apparently
it's one of the best pots ever Italy. It's an
amazing place for if you want to have great food
and enjoy the beach, but you won't find I've never
heard any Italian friend doing that much surfing in it,
So yeah, it's a very diversified you know, environment and
(02:59):
the UK off the Brexit, of course, went out from
the European Union, and this is another macro topic because
they had a unique opportunity of becoming this sort of
Delaware or Singapore of Europe and unfortunately until now they're struggling.
I'm writing about these topics very often, so I might
be to I can dive in in from so many
angles up to you, what do you find?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
More specifically, for my audience, who are investors and we're
trying to build wealth, and we're trying to navigate our
wealth and our and our freedom. I think about the
way that these nations are changing, and specifically more around
the political climate, maybe also the populace as well, and
it's changing rapidly, like areas that used to be safe
(03:40):
are now dangerous, areas that were dangerous are now getting safer.
But also tax rates are changing rapidly, So now nations
are cranking up the tax rates to trying to create
exit taxes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And so when it comes.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
To building wealth and then really, like I said, navigating wealth,
I think it's important for me to understand what's going on,
so I could be prepared to navigate around that. If
they're going to put some massive wealth tax, unrealized capital
gains tax, I might want to leave and move my
tax jurisdiction to another country. If they're going to pass
(04:11):
some policies and political policies that I think could put
myself in danger or area I wouldn't want to live,
I would probably want to move. And so I guess
that's sort of more the angle I was coming from.
I know, you help people think through those things and
sort of where we're aligned. Is this flag theory, right?
You wouldn't put all your money in one stock. Why
(04:33):
do you have all your life in the hands of
one country when you could diversify and move your tax
base and move your voting base and move your asset
base and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
One hundred percent. And this is somehow not so well,
none expecially from Americans. But within Europe there are very
powerful tax exemption methodologies. So let me give you an
overview so you can map it out. Portugal until actually
one year ago it had a so called NHR system.
Right now the new NHR improperly actually called this effichi.
(05:06):
Long story short. With proper conditions, you can pay zero
foreign income for ten years, but right now you need
to have a local employment agreement in a eligible profession.
So Portugal, which is a very cool place where to live,
still can be for ten years, upon several conditions, a
great tax spot. And this is great because you know,
intra Europe in general, even helpinging bank accounts in a
(05:28):
different country and so far and strown, it's quite simple,
so Portugal could be on the map Spain. Always be
careful about Spain and Italy because sometimes theory in practice differ.
So with that disclaimer and caveat in mind, Spain has
the so called regime of the Backham law that can
give you a specific you know, advantage in terms of
foreign income for six years if I'm not wrong, and
(05:49):
many have chosen Spain for this reason. Italy, if you
are an ultra network individual, guys, my take mark is
right now, it's the best place word to be. But
you need to be. Probably with my family sometimes we
make this joke, you know, we aim to go back
to the using this flat tax system. It works this way,
so you pay two hundred thousand euro every year and
(06:11):
you have essentially a flat tax for you and your family.
There are more nuances, but I don't want to make
this two boring. The key piece of information is that
this regime guarantees you these numbers for fifteen years one
to five. And if you think that you can live
in Rome Million or Tuscany and pay two hundred k
every year and that's it, that sounds like magic. So
in my view right now, if you are maybe everything
(06:31):
north out of ten million, maybe of early income, it
may be it's a no brainer because you have an
incredible quity of life and so many other benefits. Malta
Cyprus tale also potentially very good places for taxi utimization reasons,
and in general this is the primary list. Of course,
if you look from a geographical perspective, Monoco is historically
(06:51):
right the zero income place in Europe. It's probably the
place with aldest money, I would say, in general, and
each one of the place has so many nuances and
it's never easy because Europe it is of course very
serious in terms of regulation. But yeah, you can have
your space of freedom leveraging properly. In the end, these
systems and these systems are built on a busy principle.
(07:12):
Every country wants to protract wealth and copy and talent.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Of course, do they really, because what I see the
UK just passed the largest tax increases since nineteen ninety three,
and when I see that happen, I see lots of
wealthy people saying they're going to leave the country. As
a matter of fact, in the UK, I see one
of the major banks reveal that they are potentially going
(07:36):
to pull out and move out of the country because
of the tax increases. So you say that they all
want to attract this, but it seems like the policies
like the UK is doing and historically has shown that
when they do these they're actually driving those people out
of the country.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's a great angle and the great point some countries,
and depending on the police, I would say cycle they
adopt the right legislation, the right the right framework where
they want, they are capable of attracting with benefits specific
target of population in the same precise moment. Other countries
go the other way around, and that's what caust for example,
(08:15):
the exodus from Norway. Norway also introduced from a specific
arealized capital gain taxation. Australia is considering to introduce, for
above a certain threshold irealized capital taxes, and in my view,
is the best way to kill an economy and to
make your wealthy people actually escape from you. Is taxing
that that should be legally and constitutional, is my personal opinion.
(08:35):
For the UK, we assisted to this so called UK
exoduce and I read, actually I wrote a post that
probably ten days ago whatever a lot of people moved
from London to Milan. So what my interpretation, but it
is open to discussion. I would like to hear your
point of view. In my view, the real key point
is that we don't know how the world even next
year or in five years or in ten years will evolve,
(08:57):
and it's a constant change. It will never remain stable.
So today maybe one country is optimus for you, Tomorrow
it won And in these eternal dents, I would say
it's a sort of ballot of Essentially, there is an
intrinsic tension between individual freedom and eventually government outreach. And
in this tension that moves constantly. In my view, there
is this this whole movement of let's call it a
(09:19):
sortn individuals, sort in collective people, lovers of freedom and
so far instrument.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, and you mentioned a couple of really good cases.
Here in the United States, it's similar. Obviously, we have
the federal taxes we have to deal with, but like
during COVID, for example, New York and California tried to
be the most aggressive, did try. They were the most
aggressive as far as the rules and regulations they put
people in during that time. But also those two states
have the highest tax rates, and so we saw a
(09:44):
massive exodus out of New York and people went down
to Florida where it was both more free and there's
no state taxes. Wall Street was leaving in mass to
go down to Florida. Same with California. Everyone left California,
a lot of people went to Texas again, a place
that was more free and has no taxes. And so
we see this happening more and more. And I think
(10:05):
you bring up a really good point, which is these
policies are changing so fast we don't know what it's
going to be in the next couple of years, which
is why I think it's important to sort of think
ahead and sort of be able to plan for these
changes as they come about.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
So I guess, I mean, how do you see this
shaping up and how do you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
See the ability to sort of stay flexible and move
around in these times?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Great? Great take, and to answer me to your question.
To your question, in my view, what I've seen multiple
times from tech founders, alternate working individuals, investors, also more
traditional real estate people. And I also had I get
got there for various reasons with my personal life and strategy.
I lived in Italy for many years and I did
(10:54):
my old career and became a qualified as a lawyer.
I made the PhD, said that I would never thought
to be my country until that moment. And then for
startups reason, I found the different companies. I started traveling,
and when I started traveling, I inevitably started having in
multiple jurisdiction companies, regulated entities, bank accounts and so far
and so on. When you, with your own experience you
(11:15):
touch this, I would say, lifestyle, you realize sometimes that ultimately,
in twenty twenty five, do borders really represent an obstacle
for your own freedom and for your own planning for
your family? I would say they don't, and they should not.
And that's very important for me because let's take examples Canada.
The Canadian approach with COVID, it was objectively, over strictly
(11:38):
and crazy. I was in Dubai at the time. We
barely only at this at the end we had lockdowns,
et cetera. So my take and my strong advice is
every case is unique, but in general terms, you should
get exposure to different jurisdictions in terms of citizenship, residiency,
bank account, business setups and so far and so on.
(11:59):
Why because arbit you know, in most of the markets,
in the traditional and not rational sense, are forms of arbitrash.
And if you think of yourself and your family, you
want to put yourself and your family in the best
spot no matter what, and you want to be able
to choose every single time. So, in my view, in
twenty twenty five now, but even in five years, if
(12:19):
you are anything north of one million personal network, you
should prioritize considering implementing on yourself this freedom stack, at
least maybe with an additional residency, and if you can
afford it, maybe with a second citizenship, and why not
maybe trying to open a bank account in a different
place so you distribute your access to your control to
your own wealth, and so far and sorong. So this
(12:41):
is in my interpretation of how to optimize your family
future in my view, and I would just want to
make one remark. I when I refer to these things,
I am thinking both of web preservation, but at the
same time I'm also thinking of I'm a big believer
that money and taxes are part of a broader event
scheme of optimizing the capability of expressing yourself, and the
(13:04):
same for your kids. What I'm trying to say is
that it's not just doing the right trust set up
for your kid with ten million in it's also putting
them in condition to express themselves depending on their preferences
of their passion and so far and so on, and
from an objectively, at this point, geography in an interconnected
world should not be an obstacle. And in my view,
what is the key problem and why we're talking about
(13:26):
these topics. We are living right now, mark in using
governance structures that are at least two hundred of years old.
We still vote with a piece of paper, and the
world at this point is fully digital. So there is
a friction between old systems and current reality, and that's
what we need to delivery day with That's a.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Really good point.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I talk about that often, how we were sort of
trained in the school system that was set up for
the industrial era, and we've been given industrial ara tools.
But now we're in this new age through the information age,
now maybe into the intelligence age with AI. So how
do we deal with that mismatch of government that's no
longer a government structure that's no longer sort of relevant
(14:07):
in the world that we live in today.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Great question, and I completely agree also with the example
of the you know, the school methodology I learned to personally.
I can translate still from Latin ancient lating in Greek,
but I intee twent seventeen my English was pretty much
at zero. So and of course there are pros and
cons in everything, but I think I think the right
recipe is sometimes we need to de learn some some
(14:33):
or we need to unlearn sorry, certain principles when they
become an obstacle to ourselves. And in my view, we
need to think of citizenship residency in different terms, in
terms of effective, you know, effectiveness and strategy. So in
my view, you need to deal. You need to sit
down as you do financial planning, as you do as
you potentially you know, want to say that you want
(14:54):
to improve your you know, your physical captabilities for a
specific sport that can be served, can be gym, whatever,
and do a plan with a personal trainer you do
you exercise every day, and the same for eventually, you know, mindfulness.
Let's say that you want to increase your stability and
you and you're your emotional side, and you do maybe
coaching on that side. I find incredible. Today we do
(15:15):
eventually financial planning, but we don't do any efforts sometimes
in diversifying our from a geographical and geopolitical point our freedom.
So in my view, we need to take these matters seriously.
And I'm not technically a consultant I have. I promote
a fund, I created a fan structure, but I'm dealing
and from a product perspective, I see these and help
many families in funding their solution. I think everyone should
(15:38):
take seriously in consideration this matter, because sometimes it's not
You don't need ten millions or one million to invest
in a country to get a citizenship. You can start
with much less. I know a lot of I've been
this week and at an event of a friend of mine.
We're actually after which we met actually our common friend
that we were referring to Alex and there were some
(16:00):
any guys the younger nineteen year old and this guy
has one million followers on Instagram and he's already aware
of these issues and getting a Paraguay and in this
case residency and studying towards that direction. So my best
advice is put on your map at least this area.
Maybe today you don't have the tools for solving it
the equation, but you should put in your own strategic
(16:22):
map this area as a foundational one for yourself. And
also it's very funny because sometimes you know, we all
live in our city, in our country. Traveling opens your
mind gives you more wider business opportunities and so far
and from so start thinking of it in order to
be able to ask for assistance and build your own plan.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah, I think about you know, how the world changed
and sort of back to that industrial era versus the
information age, and the internet has now, as you said earlier,
sort of connected us.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And so now we travel a lot more.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And I think we've gone from obviously the big factories
and then we still have the small mom and pops,
but those are you know, brick and mortar businesses that
can't easily move. But now today we have the rise
of the gig economy and people working remotely. Digital nomads
is rising, and I think that's really escalating this. But
I also think about bitcoin, and so with bitcoin, it's
like I think about something I refer too often, and
(17:15):
it's sort of this frame I think from is permissionless
money for permissionless life. And so when you don't need
permission for your money, when you have a borderless money,
then do I need permission for my life? Can I
just do things? Even in a sense where like one
(17:37):
of my sisters is a doctor, One of my sisters
has a medical practice, but isn't a doctor, but hired doctors.
And then my daughter just became a health coach, but
she's not a doctor and she's my sister that's a doctor.
Is upset because not upset, but a little bit upset
that my daughter who's this health coach can work with
(17:58):
clients anywhere in the country and do all these things
that she, as a doctor, can't do because she hasn't
informission for So it's like we can just learn skills,
and we can just take this to the market, and
we can just have a money that gives us as
permissional life, and we can just move to Portugal or Brazil.
And so is that sort of a frame that you
think through? And how do you talk to clients about.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That great angle? I think I think in these terms.
Let me try. Let's see if I address this question
and I exhausted it correctly. So you are surely familiar
with this sort of individual book, and we are all
familiar with the main thesis so information age. Eventually, the
(18:40):
initial thesis was with digetization or a cyber economy, we
all would have been more free compared to yesterday. In
my view, mark we went the opposite way around so
we experienced it. Government's having actually another reach and an
over goodory approach. The more the economy has been digitized,
the more eventually regulation and boundaries have been digitized eventually
(19:04):
before the technology was ready Europe until now. Things may change,
but until now Europe has been atrocious, terrible in this.
They regulated things before they were reality, before they were economy.
So in this world, I think having access to permissionless
money is the step one. So everyone at this point
should have. This is not a financial advice, but part
(19:25):
of their portfolio exposed to bitcoin in whichever matter, partially
mediaf partially I always advise called storage. We always, you know,
we all ask advice the same thing, but the thing
is permission and money, maybe up to five percent, depending
of course on everyone preferences and permissional less permissionless life
at this point means get the documents that enables you
(19:47):
to travel, leave, do business, access to healthcare in as
many countries as possible. Because we don't know how the
world will change and on the on the AI impact
on the next ten and twenty years of economy. I
would like to express my perspective, which is potentially ambrong.
So maybe these won't age well. In ten years Summer
(20:08):
will resurrect this video. But in my view, the world
is going to change in crazy manners that we can't predict.
Nobody can predict, including the best RAND team in the
world under Black Rock all Maan Saks. Nobody can predict it,
which means maybe in the IH there will be landlords
and renters. Landlords like the machine owners that really own
(20:28):
the machine, and the machines are producing actually almost eighty
percent eventually off the goods and services, and they will
become richer and richer, and eventually it will be renters.
Those ones probably leading out of UBI or digital credits,
sort of new mechanics for ensuring minimum you know, lively
to anyone. And in my view, we're going towards a polarization.
(20:49):
So there will be either Rolls Royce with handmade crafting
cards or maybe mass market created Tesla's and Sofar or
Bad or whatever else. The middle is going to die.
So if this is the general trajectory, because I need
to be high level, I can't zoom in because we
don't know how the things will evolve. My advice is
(21:10):
don't give for granted that the current state of the
geo politics will remain as is right now, Europe is
the place where launching a business is a terrible idea.
Today it's terrible, you should not do it. But my
provocation for you is maybe mark in ten years, in
fifteen years in Europe has assets that can't be machine
(21:30):
replicated because we have a lot of culture and things
that don't work, but they are beautiful, and maybe beauty
and authenticity will be the new currency in the IE age.
So if that's the trajectory, what today we give for
granted may be actually maybe doing a one hundred d
degree change. So my thesis is I'm not going to
tell you how the future necessary will look like, but
(21:51):
I'm very very convinced and o being read in telling
you that the level of risk of not understanding where
we are going in the next ten years brings to
ida conclusion we need to get an edge, including on Europe,
including on Middle Least Asia and so far and so on.
And this doesn't mean to eventually be philosophically anti patriotic,
because in my view, the concept of national and the
(22:12):
concept of state is going to well has it already
evolved in different manners, so we can be nationalist we
can love our nation even without being living our life
in the boundaries of our specific state.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, that's a good thesis. I haven't really thought about
it like that, but it makes perfect sense. And it's
something I talk about quite often, which is sort of
in this age of AI where everything is to your point,
sort of mass produced. I think it's typically about like
from a content angle, and now it's you know, writing content,
it's making videos, all these things. And so now we're
starting to see the shift where people are purposely making
videos that are very rough and raw and rugged.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
That can't be created by AI.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And so to your point about sort of some of
this culture and beauty coming back, I like that. Let's
talk about bitcoin for a minute, because permissionless money for
mentionless life. How would you say that you see what
is if people are underestimating about pecoins potential to disrupt
the financial world and really sort of usher in this
new age.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Also, this one is a great question. So I want
to bring in a unique angle in the sense of
I'm picking up something maybe more European. So I hope
Americans listening, you know, they find it is more interesting.
So I believe that we have been all used and
accustomed to have a sort of sense of hyper respect
(23:35):
for institutions. Let me glorify respect for institutions for private
or publicly owned, family, state, nation. They are very important
and I think they should be the bedrock of our
society forever. But at the same time, we have been
induced to believe that every institution has existed forever. So
when we look at even the history of our country
(23:57):
or of our continent, we believe, yeah, two under the
ars Ago foundaries. Ago they were barbarians. Now we are
by far more evoluted. The reality is that every institution
we live in, including the state, the United South America,
every single state, for example Italy eighteen seventy one, the
foundation of the Italian state Unity of Italy, they are
(24:18):
relatively recent. Banking system is relatively recent, although the primordial
forms actually have a couple of hundreds of centuries. So
what I'm trying to say is we have eventually a
bias of thinking that things won't change. Why because they
have never changed. So I think this is the major
obstacle mark in the mind, especially of smart people, because
(24:42):
sometimes I have this thesis, especially for crypto and bitcoin specifically,
the early adopters are fifty to fifty. Fifty their geniuses
and fifty maybe are a bit above average because sometimes,
right the bigger innovation comes from either the genius or
someone who is completely unaware and maybe is not a culture.
Then that's why his mind is virgin, is a pristine,
(25:06):
so it's capable of thinking something new without following p
existing rules. So I believe that's the obstacle in terms
of understanding bitcoin. If you ask me, what's the obstacle
in terms of adopting bitcoin, which is a different point.
I believe that right now bitcoin has already matured a
higher degree of reputation, but still, to be very frank,
(25:29):
managing a ledger is still something honestly complex, and I
personally believe I don't fry me for this that in
my view, the ETFs are a good vehicle for bringing
people and normal I would say, non specialized capital into bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I would say that what is good like good
is a relative term, and so like with gold, let's
just use gold for example, Like I mean, I can
just buy some gold like a buyer goold coin. I
could throw it at my drawer in my room. If
I have more gold, I probably just don't want it
in my drawer. I might want a safe, and I
have have more gold, I might want to put it
(26:09):
in somebody else's vault. And if I have more gold,
I might want it in a custodian account like an
ETF that then it could be moved easier and I
got more liquidity to it. And so there is no
such thing as good. That's like a blanket for everybody.
And I would think about bitcoin sort of the same way.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's like, if I have a little bit of bitcoin,
I can just put in the wallet on my phone.
If I have more bigcoin, I should put into a
cold wallet. More big wine should probably put into a
multi sig cold wallet. More bitcoin, I might want a
custodian to hold that for me. And so you have
different levels and I can actually utilize all those at
the same time. So I do have some gold in
my safe and a hardware wallet in my safe, right
I do, right, And so I do have gold and
(26:46):
I do have bitcoin in these different areas, and so
there's no such thing as good. And then I think about,
like you know, to your point, I think secure and
bitcoin is extremely easy, but it can become more complex
the more security you need. What happens is if you
don't have the technical ability to do that, you actually
put yourself at more.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Risk by trying to have more security. So it's his paradox.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think you're right, and like I said, I think
there's a case to have it in all of these
locations because you're using it for different purposes.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Why is the words? I agree?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, Okay, let's talk about how all this is changing
and citizenship is sort of be Not only is the
money system changing, but citizenship is changing. And I know
you're specifically helping people get more citizenship. Think about that
(27:38):
moving to different jurisdictions. So let's talk about that for
a minute.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Fantastic, Yeah, of course. Well I would like to take
the opportunity to clarify that citizenship and residency and tax
or feescalary residency. There are three different things, and I
want to bring these in because it's always it seems obvious,
but it's not sorrow. Citizenship means it's like an option.
You have the option to do something, but you don't
(28:04):
have to. You don't have an obligation to Citizenship means
you have certain rights in tier, including the right of
living in a country, but you are not required to
live in that specific country tomorrow or within twelve months.
So citiship is a very powerful, you know, status that
is recognized by a country and it gives you rights
(28:26):
and obligations, not including the one to live in in
a country. Typically, physical residence is eradicated when you spend
a certain amount of time in a specific country, and
this means that typically is one hundred eighty three days.
But there are exceptions. If the US is an exception
in this an exception. So typically half of the year
in one country, like you're in Italy, well you should
(28:46):
at that point pay access to the Italian authorities. They
will tell you Benvenuto, welcome and they wouldn't want to
get your money, okay, so the same for France and Spain.
Citizenship in particular at this point in time can be
obtained via contributions, and contributions to a specific country can
(29:06):
take different forms. One form is, well, I spend my
time and I work there, so I create value locally
into the society. Therefore, for example, if you move to
Germany or Portugal or Spain and you live for five
eight years, depending on the rules for acquiring citizenship, of
after a few years of lawful residency legal residency in
a country, when you provide and contribute to the society meaningfully,
(29:30):
you can apply for citizenship upon for example, knowing a
bit of the language, upon integration, so typically you spend
some time, you learn the language, and then you get
the passport. Now this is one way for contributing to
a country and gain citizenship. There are other ways. Instead
of necessarily living there, so you contribute moving there with
your feet and your energies. You can contribute with money.
(29:52):
Those models in the puristic form are called citizenship by investment.
You invest and therefore you acquire the passport. Now these
forums recently became i would say unappreciated at the European level,
and the Maltese CBI or Cityship Investment program has been abolished.
Now without going too much indeed, because it would be
(30:14):
maybe a bit two technical, what it really matters, Mark.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Is you said, you said, you said multis program got abolished.
Oh yeah, yeah, that was like the best one in
the world, right, it was like a million dollars to invest.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, you should have invested starting well, you should have
donated six hundred and fifty k minimum. But if you
donated seven hundred and fifty, you would have gotten the
passport in a shorter time frame, so you could have
put the money and you lose the money, of course.
And at this, prior to this, you know, to it came,
before it came to an end, there was donation, then
real estate requirements. You should have purchased the hanhause O, rented,
(30:50):
then donated ten k to an NGO and in twelve
or thirty six months passport. So this was the European
CBI Malta, the European Union. Long story short said, hold on,
if you sell your passport as Malta and you're going
to acquire the Malti citizenship, but the factor you're going
to acquire also the European citizenship. And we don't want
(31:13):
someone who pays you Malta and then comes to living
Germany in France, and why why we should allow this?
Now the nuances are a bit more complex, but and
this decision, in my view, ultimately is wrong. So the
European Union should have done something different, should have actually
allowed Malta to sell their citizenship because it's a sovereign state.
It otherwise we have an ipair over each of the
(31:33):
European Union over the sovariety of the Single States, but
the European Union should have be in my view, created
a rebalancing effect so that the economic benefits that Malta received.
Malta collected Mark one point five billion in the in
the revenues because of donations via this route in the
past ten years. One point five billion, and it's a
(31:54):
timey Have you ever been in Malta. Well, it's a
super tiny island, quite nice place, and it's you know,
it's south of Sicily, Italy, so it's literally self of Italy.
It's a tiny island. One point five billion. So this
was the case for CBI right now in Europe is
not allowed anymore, but RBI you residiency by investment is allowed.
(32:17):
So for example, Portugal right now is the best. Why
you can technically invest in There are various routes, but
the simplest is you invest in an eligible fund five
hundred thousand euro and you need to spend only fourteen
days every two years in the country, plus either language
test or online language classes about one hundred and fifty hours,
(32:41):
and after five years you can apply for citizenship. So
this is a different approach to citizenship that is based
on an economic contribution, in this case worth mentioning. It's
not a donation, it's an investment. So if you invest
in the right fund, hopefully you will see a return
of investment. So these are strategies. Now I'm focusing on Europe,
(33:02):
but I can expand if you want, for other countries
or other geographical areas where you can expand your cityship portfolio.
Keeping in mind, as I was telling you a front,
that cityship does not equate to residency or physical residency.
And in the case of Portugal, for example, which is
the probably the program that I'm more actually expert about,
(33:22):
off you don't need to live here, so this means
that you will keep paying taxes wherever you are considered
physically resident. And other countries had these programs. Spain had
a Golden Vision. It got abolished in April twenty twenty five. Cyprus,
Bulgaria also they were CBI programs. They shut down. So
when we were chatting before about tensions and changes, this
(33:45):
matter is constantly changing. So what today is possible, eventually
tomorrow will be restricted or will become a bit more expensive.
Even the Italian flat tax, it was one unther k
per Yer and now it doubled, it's under So from
a web perspective, my very solid I would say recommendation
(34:07):
is when every family or every entrepreneur look at this
area of topics, should always factor in in their decision
making framework the pros and cons the cost, of course,
but at the same time the risk that the same product,
that the same thing, the same strategy will become either
(34:27):
unavailable Malta disappeared, now not available anymore, so you can't
do it, or they will cost much more. So this
is the game, I would say, the key levels of
these industries.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
So you have the ability to buy a citizenship and
then that money is a donation, You give up the
money and the money is gone. Another option is then
to invest into the move there and contribute your time
and energy. Or you can invest there and then that
could be some sort of an investment, a business that
could be real estate, things like that. And then you
(34:58):
want to decide which one you because then those passports
get you certain benefits, and so what you really want
is the most amount of countries you can travel to
visa free.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I'm guessing right.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So that's why Malta was like one of the best
whereas you can do it in the Caribbean Islands, for example,
but then you don't really get access to all the
different countries, and typically you could buy it for less
than you would invest for. And unfortunately, typically when you invest,
you're typically investing into things that maybe aren't.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
The best investments.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Right you have to buy some overpriced real estate that
probably is not going to cash flow or get your
money back out of it at some point.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
That's sort of what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I'm curious though, as far as and I have been
seeing them get more and more expensive over the last
couple of years, probably because there's more people that want them.
I'm curious though. So you said, like Spain got rid
of their Golden visa program. Now you said, like in
Portugal it's a five year process, so I can apply
for it within five years, I can get my citizenship.
But in Spain they abolished it. If I had gotten
(35:54):
that five year residency to citizenship program started before, then
am I still grand father and going through that or
is it over or they're just not accepting new people.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Correct. So in general, when it comes to Europe specifically
in the print, one of the key corollary of the
rule of law implies that new laws can't be retroactive.
These are general principle, but to keep it simple, means
that if you got in in Spain before they changed
the law, you're right, wouldn't be preserved. So these are
(36:29):
general principle that applies more or less in all Europe.
So that's why I always say it's better to be
three days earlier than one single day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Right, Yeah, So tell me about the Golden visa program
in Portugal because it involves bitcoin. So it's not invested
into some overpriced real estate that you can get back
or some business model that could fail. But specifically, I
can move bitcoin into the country. So if I'm already
sitting on bitcoin, I believe in bitcoin, I'm investing in
the bitcoin for the long term, then this could be
(36:59):
a fit.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Absolutely. Let me let me tell you what we what
we built. So we built a bitcoin ecosystem Golden Visa fund.
This means that in essence, we created a bitcoin treasury
company and the fund owned by the fund, and the
fund invests in the bitcoin treasury company. So the ultimate
exposure is on bitcoin via a commercial company in Portugal.
(37:25):
We pay access here with the company and we provide
two investors a clear pathway to both get exposure to
bitcoin and directly and at the same time to qualify
for the Golden Visa. And there is a direct contribution
in the country, and we also are quite active. We
try to position Portugal on the tech and bid the
bitcoin movement mark I would say worldwide, and we do
(37:48):
our best for having a soid footprint in the country
and this model achieved well major success mark so far.
We will be able to attract many investors, some them
well known, and we are quite proud of pioneering this model.
So the difference has been typically these companies where the
funds invest maybe they hold real estate tassets and now
(38:10):
in Portugal is not anymore possible. The law explicitly exclude
real estate from the areas of eligible investment. So this
is the model we have created and we need to
technically the fund technically can receive Fiat money by loan,
so we can help people to exchange bitcoin immediately for Fiat.
The fund received Fiat allocates in the company, but the
(38:34):
legal requirement is technically at least the Fiat should money
Euro should eat the local bank account.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Okay, so then you see fiat money. We send dollars
or whatever currency that we're using, and then the fund
buys by cooin with those dollars.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Specifically, the fund with most of the money buys or
loans money to the company, and the company is a
bitcoin treasury company buy s bitcoin via atfs because it's
the most secure, secure way, and we provide of course
full transparency at the fund level, at the company level.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So then by proxy, basically the funds that I send
over are sitting in a bitcoin. And then in five years,
however bitcoin goes up, that's how much my investment goes up.
And then in five years, once I get my citizenship,
I can get my money back if I want, and
I get the gains of what bitcoin went up during
that period.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Yes, we actually apply ten percent of performance fee. So
in principle, say that there is one million of profit
on your own allocation you take in an entred k,
we take ten percent.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Okay, okay, one under k.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
But rather than investing in some other type of thing
that has all types of operational risk and unknown risks
that I might be don't even understand. If I'm a
long term bitcoin investor, then basically I have it's like
sort of like buying an ETF.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
In a roundabout way. I understand there's technical difficulty, technical details, but.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, technically and legally it's it's a fun investment. But
let me make this analogy. There is a fund investing
in a company which trades looks for the cars. Look
looks for the cars. So practically the investor is investing
in the look it looks through the cars. They can
be vintage Ferrari, Vintach, Porsche. In our case, we don't,
of course, at any level investing in vintage cars. We
(40:23):
have a specific mandate. We are a bit conical system
focused and therefore we buy and maintain a position only
in bitcoin because we are an active player of conical system.
So from this perspective, yes, it's like if you are,
of course with a different structure, with a different meaning
and with a different ownership, but you get exposure to bitcoin,
and we try to do our best to make sure
(40:44):
that at any level, at least for what is visible,
we guarantee the most efficiency and the most long term
solidity for this model.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
All right, So you know, we've covered a lot of
ground from sort of shaping the future of technology and
how ami shape things and freedom is changing, and how
bitcoin is also helping the usher that in what would
you say, one big idea about freedom in this sort
of new tech driven world is sort of top of
mind that our listeners should take away from this.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
My very strong idea of freedom and the main rationale
that brought me in creating this opportunity with Leasership is
in using bitcoin as an asset, as a network, as
a technology, as a movement, and directly so if we
put away all the legal matters and the legal technicalities
from a philosophic standpoint, we are using we are both
(41:39):
contributing to the bitcoin movement and using bitcoin as a
tool for freedom for yourself, your family, for getting an
arbitrash across jurisdictions. And we are going to be the
team building similar solutions as soon as they are made
available by legal frameworks everywhere in the world. Because I
believe that bitcoin treasuries can be an interesting direct and
(42:00):
your market rights right about these very frequently. But at
the same time I believe that bitcoin treasuries can be
really used also as a tool for enabling a higher
degree of freedom to people. So this is the in
my view, the big kind of idea of freedom in
this modern world. In my view, bitcoin means freedom, especially
because of how technologically built, especially in the eye age,
(42:23):
and using bitcoin companies the bitcoin ecosystem for acquiring residencies
meaningfully for yourself and your family. I think this really
represents the highest form of freedom in my view.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And you know what I should have I should have
opened up with this. But my path to buying bitcoin
in twenty fifteen was that I was reading a newsletter
at the time called Sovereign Man, and it was about
being a sovereign man and having multiple multiple passports. And
I was working with someone and has a network in
Panama to open up a trust in Panama so I
could open up a bank account there.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
And if I open up a bank acount and put enough.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Money in there, they would allow me to have a
citizenship program, or I should say, a residency program that
would lead the citizenship.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And so I had already met with the attorney.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We were in the process of setting this up, and
I had taken another look at bitcoin. I'd heard about
it for a couple of years. I took another look
at and I said, wait a minute, this is what
I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get money out
of the banking system, the US banking system. I could
just buy bitcoin. It's the same thing. And it was
all about the freedom that I wanted that led me
to bitcoin, and this is basically the same thing. It's
(43:30):
sort of the same way. It's instead of putting fiat
dollars into another country to go to a residency citizenship,
this is the way that I can use my bitcoin
that I have now to increase my freedom and a
lot quicker.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
So I love that. It's a great way to think
about that.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Can I add one point that it's a bit controversial,
but I truly believe in this angle. So in this
specific case, mark to be very frank. So when you
eat problem market feet and you go viral, usually there
must be a reason. And people in general and on
enverage ones, they are intelligent. So if a product really
works and someone from scratch we raised an important amount
(44:06):
of money, I scaled my own account as you as
you know next very very fast. It means that you
created something on multiple layers valid. So there is one
layer that nobody really emphasizes enough. Now, Portugal is a
strategically it's becoming a tech cup specifically Lispon and Portugal
is a neutral place culturally in Europe because everyone speaks English,
so you can come here, you can enjoy the time.
(44:27):
And they have this very balanced model where yeah, you
need to learn a bit of language tow line classes,
you need to still spend time in the country. So
it's a legit model. And when you want to put
your money somewhere, especially in this area, you don't want
the shortcut. You want a serious opportunity. And Portugal is
a serious country. It's a serious process, and we created
this here because within this serious regime, in my view,
(44:49):
you get not only the Portugale serious remarket. The real
value my view is first getting an edge on accountry
that in my view is going to place itself more
and more as an innovative country in in Europe. And secondly,
over the years, think of your kids. You can get
the passport for sending your kid in France to learn
to study fashion or maybe in ten years the East
(45:10):
Europe I truly believe. So It's tube will be an
economic engine in ten fifteen years and even more than today.
And opportunities are even now right there. Say that your
son wants to launch a company, it will be able
to operate because it will be European citizen. So the
key point that I wanted to remark in terms of
freedom is in my view, within our offering. But I'm
not doing a sales pitch. It's a more philosophical analysis
(45:33):
on freedom. In my view, Europe is very criticized, and
I'm the first one in criticizing Europe so much. But
at the same time, the reason why it's in effective
fragmentation is the reason why to get exposure here to
twenty seven different economic, cultural, societal systems. It's an incredible
opportunity and it will not be available in six twelve
(45:55):
twenty four months in the current terms. So this is
why I personally believe very much in what you offering,
and I think that this is a fair offering, especially
for the countries that allow these systems to happen, and
in the I would say, in the larger scheme schemes
of in the in what from a proder perspective, in
(46:16):
my view, in the grand scheme of things, I think
this is also a maneuver that European countries, in my view,
they should accelerate also to welcome valuable wealth, wealthy, but
also talent tools individuals and not only be open to
legal immigration.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
So you brought up a good point that brings a question.
So you talk about if my kids want to move
to Europe and start a business. So if someone were
to buy this golden visa, or I should say not
buy it, but invest into a country to receive the
golden visa, then that includes the entire family.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yes, that's correct, and that's crucial. So you need to
pay a bit more for legal fees, governmental fees, and
every program is a bit different. In Portugal, you can
even in actually bring in automatically your parents if and
actually if they are below sixty above sixty five years old.
If they are below there it's a bit more complex.
(47:12):
You need to prove they their financially dependent from you.
But even your parents and your kids siblings are not allowed.
So this is critical because if you have two kids,
three kids, essentially you can give to your own old
family new opportunity and a new debil an.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
There are other places like in the Caribbean, if you
were to bypassports, you have to buy those extra ones,
so it starts starts adding up. If you have a
lot of kids, and this is great.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I'm gonna go ahead.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
We're gonna make sure that we link to all this
information down below. It's something that you should definitely check out.
We'll put a link to it down below. Whatever you're doing,
think about your freedom, because man, the world is changing
super fast and you need I say, the way that
we beat uncertainty is with optionality, and so we need
as many options as we can because we don't know
(47:57):
how the world's gonna change, and this is this one
way you can do it. So we'll link to that
down below. Anything else that people should be paying attention to.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Everything else, No, I think, look, we covered thank you
so much for this interview. I think we covered all
these different topics and they are very very interesting. I
think we covered the more or less everything. So thank
you so much, and I think this was super interesting.
I hope we'll receive positive commands and questions. Of course.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
All right, thanks so much,
Host
Mark Moss
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