May 30, 2023 • 32 mins
Newt Gingrich, Former Speaker of the House and author of the upcoming book, March to the Majority, gives us his take on the spending bill and the deal cut by McCarthy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, thanks Scott Shannon, and welcome to our two
Sean Hannity Show toll free. It is eight hundred and
ninety four to one, Shawn, if you want to be
a part of the program. All right, The dead ceiling
battle is now full on. There is a full revolt
from the House Freedom Caucus. Dan Bishop and will join
(00:21):
us in a moment from North Carolina congressman is the
first to call for a motion to vacate as it
relates to Kevin McCarthy. Speaker Nuking Rich. I can give
you the list of people. Steve Moore, economist, author of Trumpanomics,
the New York Post editorial Board, Conservative, the Wall Street
Journal editorial Board, Washington Examiner, I believe is the Washington
(00:43):
Times signing on to Kevin McCarthy's bill. Others on the
Freedom Caucus signs saying why do we negotiate so much away? Anyway,
we've not gotten the actual verbiage of In terms of
the bill as written, it's going to be ninety nine pages,
so we're told a lot of the devil I'm sure
(01:04):
ends up being in the details of all of this.
But anyway, here to weigh in on both sides, of this,
we have NUW. Gingrich, former Speaker of the House, and
Congressman Dan Bishop from the great state of North Carolina.
Welcome you both to the program.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thanks Sean.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
All right, mister Speaker, Let's start with where these negotiations started.
It started with Joe Biden that said no, he wouldn't negotiate.
Joe Biden that met once and then disappeared for ninety
seven days. And you know, we're up on this quote deadline,
which I think economists rightly argue is not a real deadline.
But they're saying June what fifth is the drop dead deadline?
(01:42):
The deal is announced, we have the talking points from
both sides, but not the actual language from both sides.
The Republicans will have seventy two hours to read this
bill before they vote on it. But you generally support
this as historic and a dramatic victory. Why do you
say that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Well, where we started. You have a Senate which is
still nominally Democrat. You have a president who's Democrat. You
have a very narrow Republican majority in the House. By
the time this process was completed, Kevin McCarthy had the lead.
The center Republicans were backing the House Republicans. President Biden
(02:22):
had been forced into negotiations something he said he would
never do. And the real question in my mind, and
I cover this a lot in my new book, March
to the Majority, which is about how we took sixteen
years to get to a majority and for four years
we out maneuvered Bill Cluton. This is exactly in that model.
(02:42):
This is a good first step. If this was the
final step, I'd be really disappointed. But this step, if
this passes, we have strengthened the House Republicans, we have
strengthened conservatism. We've set the stage for appropriations fight this fall.
Remember sets a ceiling for appropriations, it doesn't set a basement.
(03:05):
And so we can come back with all the evidence
that the investigating committees are producing, we can cut a
lot of things that we're not cutting this deal, and
by the end of this year we can have significantly
changed the direction of government. That's how it happened in
the nineteen nineties. We ultimately got to four years in
a row of balance budget. But we didn't do it
the first day. We did it one step at a time.
(03:28):
This is step one, and I think for it to
be defeated would be a disaster would lead to a
clean that ceiling with no reforms and would shift the
balance of power to the Democrats decisively.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And you are the last Speaker to have balanced the
budget in our nation's history. Just as a point to
throw out there, Dan Bishop, thanks for joining us. Let's
get your take on it. And you're going as far
as to say that you're open now to triggering the
motion to vacate, which anyone Republican can do in the
House in terms of no confidence vote on Speaker McCarthy.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I think the negotiation has been handled disastrously, and with
all respect, I certainly respect Speaker Gingrid. She's got a
column on foxnews dot com that lists twelve supposed benefits
to us. But as you said at the very outset, Sean,
you haven't seen the text of the bill. So one
of the things Speaker Gingrit says is that just as
(04:27):
an example, it slashes funding for Biden's new IRS agents
and eliminates the total fiscal year twenty twenty three staffing
funding requests for new agents. Remember, the Democrats gave eighty
billion dollars to the IRS and a ten year advance
appropriation that they can this bill.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That best cuts twenty of the eighty billion, right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
No, sir, it cuts one point four billion of the
eighty billion.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is this in the actual language, because based on the
points of both sides.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
But all right, go ahea, hang on, Sean, let me
just give it. Hear me out for a second. So
one point four billion. By the way, Kevin said to
us on the call the O date, he said publicly
that it was one point nine billion. That's wrong. It's
one point four billion. And it doesn't do anything to
eliminate the fiscal year twenty twenty three staffing funding requests.
It just takes that out of that pot. The IRIS
(05:19):
can spend that whenever it wants to, and no further
progress is made toward the eighty billion. That is going
to be, you know, eating out the substance of the
American people. They talked about. Regulatory pago is another thing.
The Biden administration couldn't get the reins Act that would
control the growth of regulation, costly regulation. But there's going
(05:39):
to be something they say is almost as good, regulatory pago.
The administration is going to have to do what the
Trump administration did and say or if you're going to
have a new regulation that costs money, that put in
poses an expensive burden. You got to take one away. Well,
look at the language. It says the Biden administration can
in and laterally weigh that and if there's any question
(06:00):
about it, it's got provision in there and says and
the Bide Administration's determination cannot be challenged in any court.
This is what the bill is chock full of. Cosmetic
things like that. Even the point that the Speaker just said,
former Speaker said that it will cut spending year of year. No,
it's not clear that it will. It may cut maximum
(06:22):
twenty billion dollars more probably twelve billion. That is nothing
that it locks in the post COVID massive growth in
the bureaucracy. It doesn't put us on a path that
you can argue to getting anything better. Everything that is
a gift for Republicans in this bill, every single thing.
(06:42):
If we have enough time on your ferram I'll debate
them all. I'll show you all of it. Every one
of them is a fake. And at the same time,
here's the feature of the bill that dominates. It takes
the debt ceiling out to January of twenty twenty five.
That in an unlimited way.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
You can instead of instead of the original House bill
that would have brought us right back to this position
next year, which I thought politically would have been smart,
so we.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Could debate it before the country Instead that what does
Biden want to do? Take it out of the presidential
CAMPI you're kneecapping the presidential candidate by taking the issue out.
And the amount that can be incurred in that period
of time. People are estimating four trillion dollars more. Some
say it's going to be more than that five six.
(07:30):
Nobody on Capitolville can tell you, and they don't name it.
Why do they not name it like we did in
our bill show?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Let me get speaker Gingrich to respond all.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
This, well, that's a lot of different assertions that are
you know, you get into he said. She said, The
fact is that this does cut domestic discussionary spending. This
does rescind all the COVID money that has not yet
been spent. This is about twenty eight billion dollars, which
by the way, is a larger recision. That is a
(08:02):
cut in existing authorization than all previous recisions combined with
total twenty six billion dollars. This does, I think in
a very important way increase the ability for both infrastructure
and energy with a pretty dramatic change in the permitting system,
(08:24):
which is something that the environmentalists were deeply opposed to,
and I think you can argue about the way in
which they're trying to do something. It has a work
requirement for food stamps and for other welfare programs, which
is frankly exactly the same that we had in the
nineteen ninety six. So it raises the age that people
(08:47):
can get money without working. It permanently rebalances the roles.
It lowers the amount of state can waiver from twelve
percent to eight percent. So again it's a step. I'm
not arguing that this is perfect. I'm arguing that defeating this,
in fact, that weakens us and strengthens the Democrats, and
(09:09):
that the national media will gleefully report that the House
Republicans are incapable of governing. And I don't see what
you gain for that, because the outcome in the end
would be a worse bill less change, because you know
what would pass. People are not going to accept the
United States government going into an inability to pay its debt,
(09:30):
and therefore you suddenly have all sorts of folks to decide. Okay,
I have no choice. Since we tried and failed, we
have to pass something. This is significantly better than we
would pass and significantly better than what Biden proposed. And
again the fact is, if you continue down the road
on spending the one percent growth cap, which again remember
(09:55):
is a ceiling. It's not a basement. You can go
below that in the future, So you can't go above it.
The Congressional Budget Office said it's it's two trillion dollars
in savings.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Dan Bishop, what you're saying, Oh my gosh, what.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I'm sorry, speaker ingrid that there are there are actual
enforceable caps like the caps in the twenty eleven BCA
that were by the way, blown every year by agreement.
They're enforceable caps for two years at one percent. The
other four years are mere aspirational targets.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
They have no force.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And you're right, they turned that into the CBO. CBO
comes out and says it's going to save two point
one trillion. Are you kidding me? When they're not even
caps that you have in the in the twenty eleven bill,
But the Congress agreed to blow every.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Dan let me ask for clarification. Can can any congress,
current Congress actually require future congresses on spending?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
No, but but leave aside whether it's been attempted before.
But at least when you attempted it before, you put
them in law, and they had to be discarded by
the future congress by action. Those four years of targets
don't even have any force whatsoever. Let me speak to
a couple of the other things that figure Garritt just said. Ingrid.
(11:16):
He said, we called back tens of billions in noun
spent COVID dollars. The number is six billion that has
actually been taken back. They took another twenty two billion
of it and they put it in a fund over
the Commerce Department to be able to be spent later
on something else. Over and above the one percent caps
that he was just talking about. He talked about work
(11:39):
requirements and said his collumn says it will help lift
millions out of poverty by enacting work requirements for food
stamps and wealthare benefits. Well, they didn't allow us to
put it on Medicaid, so we're talking about food stamps
SNAP and temporary assistance to needy family's tennis and on
those two. There already are work requirements from age eighteen
(11:59):
to forty nine. It extends it up to age fifty times,
but it and it does that gradually, one year at
a time, and it all goes away subsequently in a sunset.
But it adds three new categories of exemptions. It's not
even clear, as Democrats have said, it's not even clear
that will have more You know that snap won't the
work requirements will be more comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Or other than less, mister speaker, they have.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
They send leadership talking points to the speaker and he
put them in a column, but they're not true.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Mister speaker.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I think that'll be a very interesting debate. I'm let
me just say flatly, when we passed welfare reform in
nineteen ninety six, we didn't include medicaid either. So in
that sense, the fact is Bill Clinton vetoed at twice.
Biden would have vetoed it. Now, on the other hand,
this is a significant step in the right direction. It
(12:54):
does reduce state's ability to waive from twelve to eight percent.
It does extend the age from to fifty four. And
I agree up this is not perfection, But I don't
think I'm going to double check on the COVID caarback
because I'm not sure that that's an accurate interpretation of
(13:14):
what's happening there. I think it's legitimate to raise all
those questions and then to try to find out whether
or not, in fact we think that that is you know,
I mean, who is telling factually the truth? At this point,
I have to say I understand the passion, but I'm
(13:35):
not at all. I'm not totally convinced by the way.
I'm going to give an example. The bill's actual language
has been online Sunday since Sunday night at seven fifteen,
so anybody in the country who wants to can go
and read the bill. That's just an example of the
confusion that's out there. And it's just simply not accurate
(13:55):
to say that the bill has not been available.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Congressman, I would think you'd have read it by now,
mister Speakers, and you're making representations about it. You would
find everything that I've said to be accurate. And that's
not all.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
No, I'm gonna have my staff check every single thing
you said, and I'll be glad to get back to
Sean and check. I mean, I'm again I.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Think let me let me ask a more general question,
because I'm just I'm looking at the clock here in
this segment, and we'll carry this into the next segment.
Didn't I felt Kevin McCarthy went into these negotiations with
the upper hand. I mean, they passed the bill, they
did their job, they raised the dead ceiling, and it
was fiscally responsible and it scored out a what four
point eight trillion dollars saved and over in a ten
(14:42):
year period. Mister speaker, did he give up too much?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I don't know. I mean, look, I went through this
a lot with Bill Clinton, and we negotiated a lot
of different things over four years. I listen pretty carefully
as they worked their way. I thought that there were
certain red lines that the McCarthy heads that were real.
I mean, the work requirement changes may not sound like
(15:08):
a whole lot to Congress and Bishop, but I'll tell you,
for the left wing Democrats, it's a religious matter, and
they're in a state of shock that they were put
in there at all, and assess the stage to come back.
No worries that this is the ceiling, it's not the
basement the republic that they can get the votes can
come back this fall.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Let me let me I don't like to interrupt anybody
on this. It's too important. Speaker Gingrich, Congressman Bishops, stay there.
We'll talk to both you on the other side. Eight
hundred nine four one Seawan will do this for the
full hour, just to get you both sides of this,
twenty five to the top of the hour, eight hundred
and ninety four one sean. If you want to be
a part of the program. There is a massive inner
(15:51):
mural battle. By the way, it's happening on the Democratic
side too. This is not just the Republicans as it
relates to the deal that Speaker McCarthy least made with Biden.
They now have the bill out, there's a seventy two
hour period where people get to read the bill. In
terms of the people that are supporting Speaker McCarthy, there's
(16:15):
a lot of people that I talked to today and
yesterday and they're all saying, I'm not sure yet. I
want to read the bill. I want to get into
the ninety nine pages, okay, which by the way, is
the right decision. But if you're looking at those people
supporting it, it would be like New Gingrich Stephen Moore, who
wrote trump Onomics, was going to join us in a second.
The New York Post editorial board, the Wall Street Journal
(16:35):
editorial board, the Washington I'm trying to remember it was
that the Examiner or the Time, no Washington Times, you know,
called it a win for McCarthy. And anyway, so we continue.
Dan Bishop is with us, who said that he's likely
going to put forward a motion to vacate. You might
remember during the battle over speaker that was a big deal.
(16:57):
Anyone Republican member to have that motion and that would
be a vote, then that would take place in terms
of whether they would remove Kevin McCarthy. There's a lot
of anger from the Freedom Caucus, more conservatives in the
House that are angry about it. Others like Steve Moore saying, okay,
(17:18):
the the you know, he's telling us about the things
that he's liked, that he likes about it. Steve Moore
joins us now along with Congressman Dan Bishop. By the way,
Congressman Bishop, are you going to move forward with a
motion of vacate or you would have not decided.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So all I said about that, Sean is it is
clear to me this is such a disaster that it's
going to have to be done. I'm not anxious to
do that. I don't do something like that out of
anger the other members that I don't work with. But
the point is is this, and you talked about it.
They said we couldn't get two hundred and eighteen votes
(17:53):
for a bill. We did and I have and it's
not in speaker Ginrich thinks that, you know, I'm sort
of a false strung man argument that we must all
be upset because we didn't get our bill and Kevin
went for a more incremental approach. That's not it at all.
Is that Kevin conceded every single possible thing and then
has come out with a bunch of fictional, kind of
(18:14):
cosmetic nothings and tried to suggest that their benefits and
I can take each one apart, as I was in
the last segment. So the point is, and we said
this to Kevin as the negotiations began sort of getting
in a weird spot, we sent him a letter and
the main thing that forces a substance of that was
to say, Kevin, do not force it. Republican unity. They
(18:35):
said we couldn't do it, but we've been unified in
an amazing way. It is the dynamic force in Washington.
He disregarded that, and they brought back this disaster that
he knew would split the conference all the hell and that.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
What I'm having a hard time understanding is why wasn't
he in touch with the caucus the whole time before
any concessions were made one hundred percent?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
If he was going to surrender this comprehensively, why not
get at least representatives of the factions that we've been
working throughout the whole eight file four months of this
Congress since we had the Speaker's contest back to Washington,
say here's the situation. It's really gone badly. What do
we do? Instead? They just bring this back and drop
it in our laps and then lie about it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Let me get Steve Moore in here. Steve, you've actually
you actually said, I believe with Cudlow that you think
McCarthy actually outmaneuvered the White House and negotiated a deal
with valuable concessions that were Conservatives demanded strict spending caps
for twenty twenty four, green light on new energy, permitting
no new student loan bailouts, but the old ones remain.
(19:43):
Energy permitting no what else requirements for welfare, a recision
of some fifty billion of unspent COVID money, et cetera,
and limits on Biden's job killing regulations, which overall you
give this a net plus in a big way.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Why not in a big way?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Sean?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Goodbye with you. And by the way, Congressman Bishop is
somebody I greatly respect. And look, you're not going to
find many people out here show John who are more
anti big government than I am. I mean, if I
have my way, we would cut this government in half.
It is atrocious. It's killing our country, it's sapping of
us of our economic energy. But I think the most
(20:23):
important thing for your listeners to understand is this whole
fight demonstrates is if you want smaller government, as you do, Sean,
I do, congressm Bishop does to most of your listeners,
you've got to get a new president.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
This president is atrocious and he's run a six trillion
dollar hole into our budget and it is a financial catastrophe.
Do I think that the Speaker did about as good
a job as possible given the hand that he was dealt. Remember,
Republicans only have one half of one third power of
the government right now, and so I would have liked
(20:57):
to have had him hold out for a better deal.
I agree with you, Congressman Bishop, that I hate the
idea that we're going to instead of hiring eighty seven
thousand agents, they're going to hire eighty two thousand agents.
I don't declare that as a victory, but we'll see,
you know. I do think that the cap for next
year is an important one, and I think there were
(21:17):
some victories here and I think we have to pull together.
And by the way, if the Conservatives vote against this,
I have no problem with that. I think, you know, Sean,
it was it was Nancy Pelosi and Chucky Schumer and
and President Biden who blew this six trillion dollar, you
know hole in our budget. They should have to walk
(21:37):
the plank and vote for the death ceiling increase.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, I don't disagree with that at all. Dan, what's
your reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So Steve's a reasonable guy. A number of the things
that you read out of I think a column he
wrote that I had a chance to see. Once Steve
sees the language and the bill that I was referring
to before, he also will see that a lot of
the things he understood to be the case aren't and
and and that.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
What do you why do you tell them specifically and
let them respond to each one.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, again, I don't have the language before me, so
I can't quote it quite as readily as I did
with Speaker Ginkricks. But there was something he made reference
to what I referred to earlier as administered regulatory PAGO,
which is the administration. That's the provision in there to
sort of sort of limit destructive regulations. Well, Steve may
not know that the bill allows the Biden administration to
(22:25):
completely waive impact of that if uh if if they
believe it's necessary for if program effectiveness. In other words,
something of the language doesn't mean anything. They can do
it inunilaterally. If there's this and the provision, the language
says that decision cannot be challenged and is not subject
to judicial reviews. Nobody can do anything about it. It's
(22:46):
it is, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
It's been well, Congressman Bishop, let me ask you this.
What was the communication like during the negotiations with the Speaker?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Very very limited? Uh? You know, I had some calls
from Garrett Graves as one of his Negotia's great guy
Patrick McHenry a few times. It was in the last hours.
It was when we heard the possibility of a four
trillion dollar debt increase, and then even later I think
that we did. Do we understand that they're going to
take it out of the presidential election by putting the
(23:16):
next issue, you know, by extending it out without any
specific numerical limit to January twenty twenty five. I mean,
do you even know that it was bad enough? It
takes it out of the presidential race race, but it
also puts a lame duck Biden administration in position and
a lame duck Congress. You know what happens in those situations, Sean,
where that's when the spending blowouts occur. They put that
(23:39):
right on the opposite side of that to be the
worst possible strategic moment. Everything about this.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Is I'd think of stretching this out. I would rather
have come back next year this time next year, and
don't gone through this all over again in an election year.
Is it what to defined? Whether the two parties are
at least given an up opportunity to define it, Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Make it as clear as I can. Here's the we
would have been better off with a clean debt ceiling
limit that was within a year than this disaster. Oh well, Steve,
you know, I mean the Congressman is right that there
are all sorts of loopholes in here. And you know,
the more we about the fine print in this budget,
(24:24):
that the worst you like it. I think that it
is interesting to me though, that a month ago I
would have thought that there was no way we could
get any concessions from But remember he was the one
who said it has to be, you know, a depth
bill without any conditions on it. And I think McCarthy did.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
But Steve, let me let me interrupt just for clarification,
and I'm trying to interrupt you, but but for clarification.
The Republicans in the House did their job. They passed
a bill, they raised the debt ceiling. It's a four
point eight trillion scored out by the CBO. It had
all of the wins in there for the republic Bigans.
Why did they feel the need to negotiate at all
(25:02):
against themselves? And let you know, we had forty three,
forty four senators when you had Senator Kennedy that were
willing to go along with what the House ultimately came
up with, so they were supposedly holding strong.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Well, you may, you guys both make a very strong point,
and I think that the deal may have been premature.
I think that McCarthy may have panicked a little bit.
And part of the reason was you've got all of
the people in the media and all the people that
buy the administration with this kind of made up story
that if we didn't pass this thing by June fifth,
(25:35):
that we were going to have a default on the debt,
which I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
That's total BS. Everybody knows it that knows anything about
the economy.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I have said it many times on your show that
it was total BS. But this was but a lot
of people on Wall Street believed it. And I think,
you know, McCarthy may have panicked a little bit. I
think the best outcome, frankly, from here, because they're going
to have I believe the vote will be tomorrow that
I think conservatives that say it should say hell, no,
this is not good enough. We're not going to support this,
(26:03):
and force you know, you get some modern Republicans and
then force the Democrats who are the ones who're saying,
oh my god, you know it's gonna be armaged and
if we don't pass the debt ceiling or them to
vote for this. And I'm not hearing that from McCarthy,
but I did talk to Steve Scalife and I told
him exactly that. I said, I said, you know, mister
Majority leader, you've got to get the Democrats to walk
(26:24):
the plank. They're the ones who ran up the debt there.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
But didn't they have the leverage when when they had
the House bill and they raised the debt ceiling and
Biden had done nothing and Schumer couldn't even get a
bill to the floor.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, I think again, John, I think you make a
good point. I think that the one the other mistake
that I think McCarthy made strategically is he should have said,
we've got our bill. The Senate is now responsible for
passing a bill, and we're not negotiating until the Chucky
Schumer passes something out of the Senate. But you know what,
he couldn't get anything out of the Senate. I'm not
(26:59):
on the Republican you can't.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And I mean that's the point. And I think you're
both kind of more in agreement than I think I
thought you would be. What does this mean for Kevin
McCarthy now, Steve, people like Dan Bishop think this is
now headed to a motion to vacate. And I think
the Democrats will love that, the media will love that.
And you know, on the other side of it, you
(27:22):
have you know, the New Green Deal climate alarmist, religious cultist.
You know they're unhappy with this deal too.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, so that I you know, I strongly disagree with
a vacator of the show. Has McCarthy played this, you
know perfectly, No, But I think he's done un given. Remember, Sean,
they only have two hundred and twenty two out of
two hundred, you know, what is a three or four
steep majority. So you know, I'm a fan of what
he's done here, but I do think he's made some mistakes.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think the biggest sounds like a communication error, Dan,
because it sounds like you guys weren't being kept in
the loop the whole way as negotiations went forward. You know,
my recommendation not no nobody ever listens to me, Hangresman.
Just so you know, my recommendation would have been to
keep the caucus in the loop before any concessions I
made and say I got to go back to my
caucus and ask them, and.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
If you're going to concede everything, then that would doubly
be so. And that's really what has happened. Totally correct.
Everything you said, Sean is right. But again I'm not
even clinging to the idea that, yeah, we had the
package of the pass with two eighteen that they said
we could never do, we had passed one. We shouldn't
be negotiating against ourselves. All of that is correct, But
given that we did start negotiating against ourselves where we've
(28:32):
gotten to. And I look forward to some opportunity to
go point for point with for Steve about his enthusiasm
for the bill, because there's nothing left to the enthusiastic
about at the end and the and the you.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Know so look, well, let me ask you, is this
bill going to pass?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Is you going to get any Republicans voting for this? I,
frankly I think, Sean, it is so bad. And other Republicans,
not Freedom Caucus, not the people who contested the speakers,
the speaker's election jam are coming out Nancy Mace, Corey Mills,
Wesley Hunt, cat Camick. Also who I'm leaving somebody else,
Mike Wallas, who are saying this is catastrophically may We're
(29:11):
not vote for. So here's what I would say, actually, Sean,
is the first step to salvaging this disaster, and that
is that more than half of the Republican Conference needs
to vote against. It needs to pass overwhelming. It's going
to pass with Democrat votes, but it needs to pass.
That needs to be the major voting flankoln and then
there are would what would you both?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I don't have a lot of time. Steve will go
to you first and I'll get back to you. Dan.
What do you recommend McCarthy do from this point?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I think you've got to go to Biden right away
and say, look, I've got a revolt on the right
against this because of so many of the tricks and
loopholes in this. Mister President, you want to avoid a
quote default, and we know that's bs charged. You've got
to get, you know, the Democrats. You've got to get
one hundred to one hundred and fifty Democrats in the
House to vote for this.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I only I don't know if he could pull that
off either.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, okay, well then it's on him, Say Sean, hell
don't click White House and say look, this isn't going
to do it. We're going to need to go back
and do a short term, very short term thirty day
forty five day deal and go back to the table
and get this fixed. That's what he.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Actually that's not a bad idea. Damn Bishop. Thanks you've
been with us for the hour. Steve Moore appreciated speaker
of gingrich On earlier. Thank you all all right eight
hundred ninety four one, Shawn greg jarreted at the top
of the hour. Now we've been warning if you have
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But it'll talk about the Trial of the Century and
(31:56):
the other news of the day as we continue. I
hope you found that debate worth while. More tonight on
Hannity
All right, thanks Scott Shannon, and welcome to our two
Sean Hannity Show toll free. It is eight hundred and
ninety four to one, Shawn, if you want to be
a part of the program. All right, The dead ceiling
battle is now full on. There is a full revolt
from the House Freedom Caucus. Dan Bishop and will join
(00:21):
us in a moment from North Carolina congressman is the
first to call for a motion to vacate as it
relates to Kevin McCarthy. Speaker Nuking Rich. I can give
you the list of people. Steve Moore, economist, author of Trumpanomics,
the New York Post editorial Board, Conservative, the Wall Street
Journal editorial Board, Washington Examiner, I believe is the Washington
(00:43):
Times signing on to Kevin McCarthy's bill. Others on the
Freedom Caucus signs saying why do we negotiate so much away? Anyway,
we've not gotten the actual verbiage of In terms of
the bill as written, it's going to be ninety nine pages,
so we're told a lot of the devil I'm sure
(01:04):
ends up being in the details of all of this.
But anyway, here to weigh in on both sides, of this,
we have NUW. Gingrich, former Speaker of the House, and
Congressman Dan Bishop from the great state of North Carolina.
Welcome you both to the program.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thanks Sean.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
All right, mister Speaker, Let's start with where these negotiations started.
It started with Joe Biden that said no, he wouldn't negotiate.
Joe Biden that met once and then disappeared for ninety
seven days. And you know, we're up on this quote deadline,
which I think economists rightly argue is not a real deadline.
But they're saying June what fifth is the drop dead deadline?
(01:42):
The deal is announced, we have the talking points from
both sides, but not the actual language from both sides.
The Republicans will have seventy two hours to read this
bill before they vote on it. But you generally support
this as historic and a dramatic victory. Why do you
say that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Well, where we started. You have a Senate which is
still nominally Democrat. You have a president who's Democrat. You
have a very narrow Republican majority in the House. By
the time this process was completed, Kevin McCarthy had the lead.
The center Republicans were backing the House Republicans. President Biden
(02:22):
had been forced into negotiations something he said he would
never do. And the real question in my mind, and
I cover this a lot in my new book, March
to the Majority, which is about how we took sixteen
years to get to a majority and for four years
we out maneuvered Bill Cluton. This is exactly in that model.
(02:42):
This is a good first step. If this was the
final step, I'd be really disappointed. But this step, if
this passes, we have strengthened the House Republicans, we have
strengthened conservatism. We've set the stage for appropriations fight this fall.
Remember sets a ceiling for appropriations, it doesn't set a basement.
(03:05):
And so we can come back with all the evidence
that the investigating committees are producing, we can cut a
lot of things that we're not cutting this deal, and
by the end of this year we can have significantly
changed the direction of government. That's how it happened in
the nineteen nineties. We ultimately got to four years in
a row of balance budget. But we didn't do it
the first day. We did it one step at a time.
(03:28):
This is step one, and I think for it to
be defeated would be a disaster would lead to a
clean that ceiling with no reforms and would shift the
balance of power to the Democrats decisively.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And you are the last Speaker to have balanced the
budget in our nation's history. Just as a point to
throw out there, Dan Bishop, thanks for joining us. Let's
get your take on it. And you're going as far
as to say that you're open now to triggering the
motion to vacate, which anyone Republican can do in the
House in terms of no confidence vote on Speaker McCarthy.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I think the negotiation has been handled disastrously, and with
all respect, I certainly respect Speaker Gingrid. She's got a
column on foxnews dot com that lists twelve supposed benefits
to us. But as you said at the very outset, Sean,
you haven't seen the text of the bill. So one
of the things Speaker Gingrit says is that just as
(04:27):
an example, it slashes funding for Biden's new IRS agents
and eliminates the total fiscal year twenty twenty three staffing
funding requests for new agents. Remember, the Democrats gave eighty
billion dollars to the IRS and a ten year advance
appropriation that they can this bill.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That best cuts twenty of the eighty billion, right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
No, sir, it cuts one point four billion of the
eighty billion.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is this in the actual language, because based on the
points of both sides.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
But all right, go ahea, hang on, Sean, let me
just give it. Hear me out for a second. So
one point four billion. By the way, Kevin said to
us on the call the O date, he said publicly
that it was one point nine billion. That's wrong. It's
one point four billion. And it doesn't do anything to
eliminate the fiscal year twenty twenty three staffing funding requests.
It just takes that out of that pot. The IRIS
(05:19):
can spend that whenever it wants to, and no further
progress is made toward the eighty billion. That is going
to be, you know, eating out the substance of the
American people. They talked about. Regulatory pago is another thing.
The Biden administration couldn't get the reins Act that would
control the growth of regulation, costly regulation. But there's going
(05:39):
to be something they say is almost as good, regulatory pago.
The administration is going to have to do what the
Trump administration did and say or if you're going to
have a new regulation that costs money, that put in
poses an expensive burden. You got to take one away. Well,
look at the language. It says the Biden administration can
in and laterally weigh that and if there's any question
(06:00):
about it, it's got provision in there and says and
the Bide Administration's determination cannot be challenged in any court.
This is what the bill is chock full of. Cosmetic
things like that. Even the point that the Speaker just said,
former Speaker said that it will cut spending year of year. No,
it's not clear that it will. It may cut maximum
(06:22):
twenty billion dollars more probably twelve billion. That is nothing
that it locks in the post COVID massive growth in
the bureaucracy. It doesn't put us on a path that
you can argue to getting anything better. Everything that is
a gift for Republicans in this bill, every single thing.
(06:42):
If we have enough time on your ferram I'll debate
them all. I'll show you all of it. Every one
of them is a fake. And at the same time,
here's the feature of the bill that dominates. It takes
the debt ceiling out to January of twenty twenty five.
That in an unlimited way.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
You can instead of instead of the original House bill
that would have brought us right back to this position
next year, which I thought politically would have been smart,
so we.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Could debate it before the country Instead that what does
Biden want to do? Take it out of the presidential
CAMPI you're kneecapping the presidential candidate by taking the issue out.
And the amount that can be incurred in that period
of time. People are estimating four trillion dollars more. Some
say it's going to be more than that five six.
(07:30):
Nobody on Capitolville can tell you, and they don't name it.
Why do they not name it like we did in
our bill show?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Let me get speaker Gingrich to respond all.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
This, well, that's a lot of different assertions that are
you know, you get into he said. She said, The
fact is that this does cut domestic discussionary spending. This
does rescind all the COVID money that has not yet
been spent. This is about twenty eight billion dollars, which
by the way, is a larger recision. That is a
(08:02):
cut in existing authorization than all previous recisions combined with
total twenty six billion dollars. This does, I think in
a very important way increase the ability for both infrastructure
and energy with a pretty dramatic change in the permitting system,
(08:24):
which is something that the environmentalists were deeply opposed to,
and I think you can argue about the way in
which they're trying to do something. It has a work
requirement for food stamps and for other welfare programs, which
is frankly exactly the same that we had in the
nineteen ninety six. So it raises the age that people
(08:47):
can get money without working. It permanently rebalances the roles.
It lowers the amount of state can waiver from twelve
percent to eight percent. So again it's a step. I'm
not arguing that this is perfect. I'm arguing that defeating this,
in fact, that weakens us and strengthens the Democrats, and
(09:09):
that the national media will gleefully report that the House
Republicans are incapable of governing. And I don't see what
you gain for that, because the outcome in the end
would be a worse bill less change, because you know
what would pass. People are not going to accept the
United States government going into an inability to pay its debt,
(09:30):
and therefore you suddenly have all sorts of folks to decide. Okay,
I have no choice. Since we tried and failed, we
have to pass something. This is significantly better than we
would pass and significantly better than what Biden proposed. And
again the fact is, if you continue down the road
on spending the one percent growth cap, which again remember
(09:55):
is a ceiling. It's not a basement. You can go
below that in the future, So you can't go above it.
The Congressional Budget Office said it's it's two trillion dollars
in savings.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Dan Bishop, what you're saying, Oh my gosh, what.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I'm sorry, speaker ingrid that there are there are actual
enforceable caps like the caps in the twenty eleven BCA
that were by the way, blown every year by agreement.
They're enforceable caps for two years at one percent. The
other four years are mere aspirational targets.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
They have no force.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And you're right, they turned that into the CBO. CBO
comes out and says it's going to save two point
one trillion. Are you kidding me? When they're not even
caps that you have in the in the twenty eleven bill,
But the Congress agreed to blow every.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Dan let me ask for clarification. Can can any congress,
current Congress actually require future congresses on spending?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
No, but but leave aside whether it's been attempted before.
But at least when you attempted it before, you put
them in law, and they had to be discarded by
the future congress by action. Those four years of targets
don't even have any force whatsoever. Let me speak to
a couple of the other things that figure Garritt just said. Ingrid.
(11:16):
He said, we called back tens of billions in noun
spent COVID dollars. The number is six billion that has
actually been taken back. They took another twenty two billion
of it and they put it in a fund over
the Commerce Department to be able to be spent later
on something else. Over and above the one percent caps
that he was just talking about. He talked about work
(11:39):
requirements and said his collumn says it will help lift
millions out of poverty by enacting work requirements for food
stamps and wealthare benefits. Well, they didn't allow us to
put it on Medicaid, so we're talking about food stamps
SNAP and temporary assistance to needy family's tennis and on
those two. There already are work requirements from age eighteen
(11:59):
to forty nine. It extends it up to age fifty times,
but it and it does that gradually, one year at
a time, and it all goes away subsequently in a sunset.
But it adds three new categories of exemptions. It's not
even clear, as Democrats have said, it's not even clear
that will have more You know that snap won't the
work requirements will be more comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Or other than less, mister speaker, they have.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
They send leadership talking points to the speaker and he
put them in a column, but they're not true.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Mister speaker.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I think that'll be a very interesting debate. I'm let
me just say flatly, when we passed welfare reform in
nineteen ninety six, we didn't include medicaid either. So in
that sense, the fact is Bill Clinton vetoed at twice.
Biden would have vetoed it. Now, on the other hand,
this is a significant step in the right direction. It
(12:54):
does reduce state's ability to waive from twelve to eight percent.
It does extend the age from to fifty four. And
I agree up this is not perfection, But I don't
think I'm going to double check on the COVID caarback
because I'm not sure that that's an accurate interpretation of
(13:14):
what's happening there. I think it's legitimate to raise all
those questions and then to try to find out whether
or not, in fact we think that that is you know,
I mean, who is telling factually the truth? At this point,
I have to say I understand the passion, but I'm
(13:35):
not at all. I'm not totally convinced by the way.
I'm going to give an example. The bill's actual language
has been online Sunday since Sunday night at seven fifteen,
so anybody in the country who wants to can go
and read the bill. That's just an example of the
confusion that's out there. And it's just simply not accurate
(13:55):
to say that the bill has not been available.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Congressman, I would think you'd have read it by now,
mister Speakers, and you're making representations about it. You would
find everything that I've said to be accurate. And that's
not all.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
No, I'm gonna have my staff check every single thing
you said, and I'll be glad to get back to
Sean and check. I mean, I'm again I.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Think let me let me ask a more general question,
because I'm just I'm looking at the clock here in
this segment, and we'll carry this into the next segment.
Didn't I felt Kevin McCarthy went into these negotiations with
the upper hand. I mean, they passed the bill, they
did their job, they raised the dead ceiling, and it
was fiscally responsible and it scored out a what four
point eight trillion dollars saved and over in a ten
(14:42):
year period. Mister speaker, did he give up too much?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I don't know. I mean, look, I went through this
a lot with Bill Clinton, and we negotiated a lot
of different things over four years. I listen pretty carefully
as they worked their way. I thought that there were
certain red lines that the McCarthy heads that were real.
I mean, the work requirement changes may not sound like
(15:08):
a whole lot to Congress and Bishop, but I'll tell you,
for the left wing Democrats, it's a religious matter, and
they're in a state of shock that they were put
in there at all, and assess the stage to come back.
No worries that this is the ceiling, it's not the
basement the republic that they can get the votes can
come back this fall.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Let me let me I don't like to interrupt anybody
on this. It's too important. Speaker Gingrich, Congressman Bishops, stay there.
We'll talk to both you on the other side. Eight
hundred nine four one Seawan will do this for the
full hour, just to get you both sides of this,
twenty five to the top of the hour, eight hundred
and ninety four one sean. If you want to be
a part of the program. There is a massive inner
(15:51):
mural battle. By the way, it's happening on the Democratic
side too. This is not just the Republicans as it
relates to the deal that Speaker McCarthy least made with Biden.
They now have the bill out, there's a seventy two
hour period where people get to read the bill. In
terms of the people that are supporting Speaker McCarthy, there's
(16:15):
a lot of people that I talked to today and
yesterday and they're all saying, I'm not sure yet. I
want to read the bill. I want to get into
the ninety nine pages, okay, which by the way, is
the right decision. But if you're looking at those people
supporting it, it would be like New Gingrich Stephen Moore, who
wrote trump Onomics, was going to join us in a second.
The New York Post editorial board, the Wall Street Journal
(16:35):
editorial board, the Washington I'm trying to remember it was
that the Examiner or the Time, no Washington Times, you know,
called it a win for McCarthy. And anyway, so we continue.
Dan Bishop is with us, who said that he's likely
going to put forward a motion to vacate. You might
remember during the battle over speaker that was a big deal.
(16:57):
Anyone Republican member to have that motion and that would
be a vote, then that would take place in terms
of whether they would remove Kevin McCarthy. There's a lot
of anger from the Freedom Caucus, more conservatives in the
House that are angry about it. Others like Steve Moore saying, okay,
(17:18):
the the you know, he's telling us about the things
that he's liked, that he likes about it. Steve Moore
joins us now along with Congressman Dan Bishop. By the way,
Congressman Bishop, are you going to move forward with a
motion of vacate or you would have not decided.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So all I said about that, Sean is it is
clear to me this is such a disaster that it's
going to have to be done. I'm not anxious to
do that. I don't do something like that out of
anger the other members that I don't work with. But
the point is is this, and you talked about it.
They said we couldn't get two hundred and eighteen votes
(17:53):
for a bill. We did and I have and it's
not in speaker Ginrich thinks that, you know, I'm sort
of a false strung man argument that we must all
be upset because we didn't get our bill and Kevin
went for a more incremental approach. That's not it at all.
Is that Kevin conceded every single possible thing and then
has come out with a bunch of fictional, kind of
(18:14):
cosmetic nothings and tried to suggest that their benefits and
I can take each one apart, as I was in
the last segment. So the point is, and we said
this to Kevin as the negotiations began sort of getting
in a weird spot, we sent him a letter and
the main thing that forces a substance of that was
to say, Kevin, do not force it. Republican unity. They
(18:35):
said we couldn't do it, but we've been unified in
an amazing way. It is the dynamic force in Washington.
He disregarded that, and they brought back this disaster that
he knew would split the conference all the hell and that.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
What I'm having a hard time understanding is why wasn't
he in touch with the caucus the whole time before
any concessions were made one hundred percent?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
If he was going to surrender this comprehensively, why not
get at least representatives of the factions that we've been
working throughout the whole eight file four months of this
Congress since we had the Speaker's contest back to Washington,
say here's the situation. It's really gone badly. What do
we do? Instead? They just bring this back and drop
it in our laps and then lie about it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Let me get Steve Moore in here. Steve, you've actually
you actually said, I believe with Cudlow that you think
McCarthy actually outmaneuvered the White House and negotiated a deal
with valuable concessions that were Conservatives demanded strict spending caps
for twenty twenty four, green light on new energy, permitting
no new student loan bailouts, but the old ones remain.
(19:43):
Energy permitting no what else requirements for welfare, a recision
of some fifty billion of unspent COVID money, et cetera,
and limits on Biden's job killing regulations, which overall you
give this a net plus in a big way.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Why not in a big way?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Sean?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Goodbye with you. And by the way, Congressman Bishop is
somebody I greatly respect. And look, you're not going to
find many people out here show John who are more
anti big government than I am. I mean, if I
have my way, we would cut this government in half.
It is atrocious. It's killing our country, it's sapping of
us of our economic energy. But I think the most
(20:23):
important thing for your listeners to understand is this whole
fight demonstrates is if you want smaller government, as you do, Sean,
I do, congressm Bishop does to most of your listeners,
you've got to get a new president.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
This president is atrocious and he's run a six trillion
dollar hole into our budget and it is a financial catastrophe.
Do I think that the Speaker did about as good
a job as possible given the hand that he was dealt. Remember,
Republicans only have one half of one third power of
the government right now, and so I would have liked
(20:57):
to have had him hold out for a better deal.
I agree with you, Congressman Bishop, that I hate the
idea that we're going to instead of hiring eighty seven
thousand agents, they're going to hire eighty two thousand agents.
I don't declare that as a victory, but we'll see,
you know. I do think that the cap for next
year is an important one, and I think there were
(21:17):
some victories here and I think we have to pull together.
And by the way, if the Conservatives vote against this,
I have no problem with that. I think, you know, Sean,
it was it was Nancy Pelosi and Chucky Schumer and
and President Biden who blew this six trillion dollar, you
know hole in our budget. They should have to walk
(21:37):
the plank and vote for the death ceiling increase.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, I don't disagree with that at all. Dan, what's
your reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So Steve's a reasonable guy. A number of the things
that you read out of I think a column he
wrote that I had a chance to see. Once Steve
sees the language and the bill that I was referring
to before, he also will see that a lot of
the things he understood to be the case aren't and
and and that.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
What do you why do you tell them specifically and
let them respond to each one.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, again, I don't have the language before me, so
I can't quote it quite as readily as I did
with Speaker Ginkricks. But there was something he made reference
to what I referred to earlier as administered regulatory PAGO,
which is the administration. That's the provision in there to
sort of sort of limit destructive regulations. Well, Steve may
not know that the bill allows the Biden administration to
(22:25):
completely waive impact of that if uh if if they
believe it's necessary for if program effectiveness. In other words,
something of the language doesn't mean anything. They can do
it inunilaterally. If there's this and the provision, the language
says that decision cannot be challenged and is not subject
to judicial reviews. Nobody can do anything about it. It's
(22:46):
it is, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
It's been well, Congressman Bishop, let me ask you this.
What was the communication like during the negotiations with the Speaker?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Very very limited? Uh? You know, I had some calls
from Garrett Graves as one of his Negotia's great guy
Patrick McHenry a few times. It was in the last hours.
It was when we heard the possibility of a four
trillion dollar debt increase, and then even later I think
that we did. Do we understand that they're going to
take it out of the presidential election by putting the
(23:16):
next issue, you know, by extending it out without any
specific numerical limit to January twenty twenty five. I mean,
do you even know that it was bad enough? It
takes it out of the presidential race race, but it
also puts a lame duck Biden administration in position and
a lame duck Congress. You know what happens in those situations, Sean,
where that's when the spending blowouts occur. They put that
(23:39):
right on the opposite side of that to be the
worst possible strategic moment. Everything about this.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Is I'd think of stretching this out. I would rather
have come back next year this time next year, and
don't gone through this all over again in an election year.
Is it what to defined? Whether the two parties are
at least given an up opportunity to define it, Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Make it as clear as I can. Here's the we
would have been better off with a clean debt ceiling
limit that was within a year than this disaster. Oh well, Steve,
you know, I mean the Congressman is right that there
are all sorts of loopholes in here. And you know,
the more we about the fine print in this budget,
(24:24):
that the worst you like it. I think that it
is interesting to me though, that a month ago I
would have thought that there was no way we could
get any concessions from But remember he was the one
who said it has to be, you know, a depth
bill without any conditions on it. And I think McCarthy did.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
But Steve, let me let me interrupt just for clarification,
and I'm trying to interrupt you, but but for clarification.
The Republicans in the House did their job. They passed
a bill, they raised the debt ceiling. It's a four
point eight trillion scored out by the CBO. It had
all of the wins in there for the republic Bigans.
Why did they feel the need to negotiate at all
(25:02):
against themselves? And let you know, we had forty three,
forty four senators when you had Senator Kennedy that were
willing to go along with what the House ultimately came
up with, so they were supposedly holding strong.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Well, you may, you guys both make a very strong point,
and I think that the deal may have been premature.
I think that McCarthy may have panicked a little bit.
And part of the reason was you've got all of
the people in the media and all the people that
buy the administration with this kind of made up story
that if we didn't pass this thing by June fifth,
(25:35):
that we were going to have a default on the debt,
which I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
That's total BS. Everybody knows it that knows anything about
the economy.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I have said it many times on your show that
it was total BS. But this was but a lot
of people on Wall Street believed it. And I think,
you know, McCarthy may have panicked a little bit. I
think the best outcome, frankly, from here, because they're going
to have I believe the vote will be tomorrow that
I think conservatives that say it should say hell, no,
this is not good enough. We're not going to support this,
(26:03):
and force you know, you get some modern Republicans and
then force the Democrats who are the ones who're saying,
oh my god, you know it's gonna be armaged and
if we don't pass the debt ceiling or them to
vote for this. And I'm not hearing that from McCarthy,
but I did talk to Steve Scalife and I told
him exactly that. I said, I said, you know, mister
Majority leader, you've got to get the Democrats to walk
(26:24):
the plank. They're the ones who ran up the debt there.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
But didn't they have the leverage when when they had
the House bill and they raised the debt ceiling and
Biden had done nothing and Schumer couldn't even get a
bill to the floor.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, I think again, John, I think you make a
good point. I think that the one the other mistake
that I think McCarthy made strategically is he should have said,
we've got our bill. The Senate is now responsible for
passing a bill, and we're not negotiating until the Chucky
Schumer passes something out of the Senate. But you know what,
he couldn't get anything out of the Senate. I'm not
(26:59):
on the Republican you can't.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And I mean that's the point. And I think you're
both kind of more in agreement than I think I
thought you would be. What does this mean for Kevin
McCarthy now, Steve, people like Dan Bishop think this is
now headed to a motion to vacate. And I think
the Democrats will love that, the media will love that.
And you know, on the other side of it, you
(27:22):
have you know, the New Green Deal climate alarmist, religious cultist.
You know they're unhappy with this deal too.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, so that I you know, I strongly disagree with
a vacator of the show. Has McCarthy played this, you
know perfectly, No, But I think he's done un given. Remember, Sean,
they only have two hundred and twenty two out of
two hundred, you know, what is a three or four
steep majority. So you know, I'm a fan of what
he's done here, but I do think he's made some mistakes.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think the biggest sounds like a communication error, Dan,
because it sounds like you guys weren't being kept in
the loop the whole way as negotiations went forward. You know,
my recommendation not no nobody ever listens to me, Hangresman.
Just so you know, my recommendation would have been to
keep the caucus in the loop before any concessions I
made and say I got to go back to my
caucus and ask them, and.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
If you're going to concede everything, then that would doubly
be so. And that's really what has happened. Totally correct.
Everything you said, Sean is right. But again I'm not
even clinging to the idea that, yeah, we had the
package of the pass with two eighteen that they said
we could never do, we had passed one. We shouldn't
be negotiating against ourselves. All of that is correct, But
given that we did start negotiating against ourselves where we've
(28:32):
gotten to. And I look forward to some opportunity to
go point for point with for Steve about his enthusiasm
for the bill, because there's nothing left to the enthusiastic
about at the end and the and the you.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Know so look, well, let me ask you, is this
bill going to pass?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Is you going to get any Republicans voting for this? I,
frankly I think, Sean, it is so bad. And other Republicans,
not Freedom Caucus, not the people who contested the speakers,
the speaker's election jam are coming out Nancy Mace, Corey Mills,
Wesley Hunt, cat Camick. Also who I'm leaving somebody else,
Mike Wallas, who are saying this is catastrophically may We're
(29:11):
not vote for. So here's what I would say, actually, Sean,
is the first step to salvaging this disaster, and that
is that more than half of the Republican Conference needs
to vote against. It needs to pass overwhelming. It's going
to pass with Democrat votes, but it needs to pass.
That needs to be the major voting flankoln and then
there are would what would you both?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I don't have a lot of time. Steve will go
to you first and I'll get back to you. Dan.
What do you recommend McCarthy do from this point?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I think you've got to go to Biden right away
and say, look, I've got a revolt on the right
against this because of so many of the tricks and
loopholes in this. Mister President, you want to avoid a
quote default, and we know that's bs charged. You've got
to get, you know, the Democrats. You've got to get
one hundred to one hundred and fifty Democrats in the
House to vote for this.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I only I don't know if he could pull that
off either.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, okay, well then it's on him, Say Sean, hell
don't click White House and say look, this isn't going
to do it. We're going to need to go back
and do a short term, very short term thirty day
forty five day deal and go back to the table
and get this fixed. That's what he.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Actually that's not a bad idea. Damn Bishop. Thanks you've
been with us for the hour. Steve Moore appreciated speaker
of gingrich On earlier. Thank you all all right eight
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But it'll talk about the Trial of the Century and
(31:56):
the other news of the day as we continue. I
hope you found that debate worth while. More tonight on
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