January 30, 2023 • 30 mins
Dallas Police Sergeant Sam Digby, who is from Memphis, Tre Pennie, President of National Fallen Officer Foundation, 22-year retired Dallas Police Sergeant and Gianno Caldwell, Fox News political Analyst and author of Taken for Granted: How Conservatism Can Win Back the Americans That Liberalism Failed, join today to discuss the release of the videotape from the Memphis police in the beating and death of Tyre Nichols. The tapes have sparked nationwide outrage, with protestors lining the streets of major cities calling for justice. Pennie and Digby will talk about what a police officer goes through when they are dealing with an attack, a traffic stop or a 911 call. They will walk us through their analysis of the Pelosi and Nichols tapes.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, our two Sean Hannity Show toll free. It's
eight hundred and nine for one, Shawn, if you want
to be a part of the program over the weekend.
The narrative, the commentary of now even elected officials that
what happened in the case of Tyree Nichols had to
do with race is kind of jarring to me in
(00:23):
many many ways. As everybody involved in this case we're
African Americans, black Americans. I'm trying to understand where this
narrative is coming from. Despite the fact that the victim,
all five now accused perpetrators in this case, we're black.
(00:44):
You have New York City Mayor Eric Adams on fake
News CNN this morning saying that race played a major
role in nichols murder. Uh don Lemon over there brought
up the previous conversation with the Memphis Police chief where
she said, quote, race is off the table. Now, the
question was Chief Davis says that because all the officers
(01:05):
were black, it takes race off the table. Do you
agree with that? No, I don't. I think race is
still on the table when a culture of policing historically
has treated those from different groups differently, even when the
individuals are from the same group, that culture can still exist.
And you have over at fake News, CNN's Van Jones
writing an editorial opinion that police who killed Tyree Nichols
(01:28):
were black, but they might have been driven by racism,
you know, and said black people are not immune to
anti black messages. And one of the sad facts about
the anti black racism is that black people ourselves are
not immune to its pernicious effects. Society's message that black
people are inferior, unworthy, and dangerous is pervasive. And you know,
(01:51):
then we had other comments the Communications Workers of Workers
of America said, once again, our country's confronted with the brutal,
deadly reality of the effects of structural racism on Black Americans.
And once again a man has been murdered by police
officers during a traffic stop. The Philly Inquirer they had
an op ed as another black man dies at the
(02:13):
hands of police, a lesson in whom the system stands
up for. Perhaps like so many who get caught up
in racist systems. They the officers believed it when they
were told that they were part of a team MPR.
Same thing, Al Sharpton, same thing, you know, race is involved,
and it goes on and on and on. Let me
(02:35):
play a montage of some of this, then we'll bring
in our panel. This is an outrage and race still
is involved. Joeys, you and I spoke about on the phone.
I don't those five cops would have done that to
a young white on a traffic stop. Not surprised the
officers here were black, because when we talk about race
and policing, we talk about the way black men, black women,
(02:59):
black people are perceived in the way they are perceived
by all of us, and so anti black racism, the
idea of thinking of black men and women as prone
to violence, as dangerous, as bigger or stronger, or more
insiduous than they really are, something that can affect all
of our minds, and black people are not immune from
that as well. There's this very simplistic notion that says, well,
(03:22):
if a white cop is doing something to an unarmed
black person, and that's racism, But we sometimes forget. Unfortunately,
African Americans can also be guilty of hatred and bias
and bigotry against other African Americans. But I think a
race is still on the table when a culture of
policing historically has treated those from different groups differently, even
(03:47):
when the individuals are from that same group. That culture
can still exists, and we have to zero in on it,
being honest about it, and making sure that we properly
train police for the realities of the cities that they
are police. It shouldn't be a surprise to people that
individual black people can actually do anti black things. Anyone
(04:09):
who knows the history of enslavement, Anyone who knows the
history of policing, knows that black people can do anti
black things, and communities of color they often have different
types of policing than many of our white brothers or
sisters have in their community. And this video illustrates it
(04:31):
that it's this culture that says it doesn't matter whether
the police officers are black, Hispanic, or white, that it
is somehow allowed for you to tramp on the constitutional
rights of certain citizens from certain ethnicities and certain communities.
All right, So there you hear it. I mean, it
(04:52):
was almost a narrative that was so widespread it kind
of shocked me a little bit. But anyway, here to
put some on it, we have Dallas Police Sergeant Sam
Digby's with us. He's from Memphis. Trey Penny, president of
the Fallen Officers Foundation, twenty two year retired Dallas Police sergeant.
Our friend and colleague Giano Caldwell. Don't forget he wrote
(05:16):
his best selling book, How Conservatism Can Win Back the
Americans that liberalism failed. You might recall back in June
of last year, he lost his younger brother, who was
a victim and innocent victim, in a shooting on the
streets of Chicago. Like so many others, have welcome all
of you back to the program. Trey, let me start
with you. You've been at this and now retired, and
(05:40):
I'm listening to these comments that I'm thinking, No, we
had we had five cops that are supposed to be
part of an elite unit that had no clue about
basic policing. One on one. There were five big, strong,
supposedly trained cops that were incapable of cuffing one suspect. Yeah, absolutely, Searan,
Look this there is a case of police misconduct. I'm
(06:03):
looking at the whole thing from this broad spectrum. Look,
I want to offer my condolens to that family, but
the reality is we cannot allow that one incident involved
in these officers. I meant the Memphis Police Department and
law enforcement as a home. And we do have to remember,
in the days after this, we've been hearing all this
stuff about racism and training in police league. That's not
(06:27):
the case. Guys. You have to realize that there is
a there is a reason for these type of groups
to exist. The Scorpion Unit existed for a reason, right
They go after the bold crime. Every police department across
this country has a unit similar to that, and you
have to have them. In Memphis. They had three hundred
murders last year, thirty five of them were kids under
(06:47):
the age of fourteen, and you've got this unit is
gonna be the unit that's going after those individuals. So
I think the response to what happened on that day
to this, to this young man, I think the response
was to that was on sean, and we got to
bring that into focus because it's gonna hurt last for
McGing forward, I heard a lot of egos involved here
(07:08):
and anger on the part of the officers. You know
what I was looking for the whole time, Sam Digby.
I mean, you're a police sergeant, you know better than me.
I was waiting for one of these officers. You know,
obviously this young man was was shocked and disturbed in
the sense that he didn't know what was going on.
He felt like he was being manhandled. He didn't understand
(07:30):
why he was stopped, and that seems to be I'm
sure that's a frequent occurrence, to be honest with you,
and anyway, there was there wasn't the one cop that said,
all right, everybody, just calmed down. I need you to
take a deep breath. I need you to listen to me. Well,
nobody needs to get hurt here. There are five of us,
as one of you. We have reason to believe you
(07:51):
were driving recklessly and we need to do our job.
We don't want you to get hurt, so we're gonna
need your operation to make sure that that happens instead
of cops literally you know, running five steps and then
and then kicking this kid in the head, and then
you know, stepping back three steps and running again and
kicking him again in the head, or just beating the
(08:13):
crap out of them, which is what we witnessed. Or
you're absolutely right and thanks for having me. Um. It's
my condolescence to the family. The Nichols family. No families
should have to endure or watching that loved one or
anyone be abused like that at the hands of police officers.
Police officers in the community to serve and protect, and
(08:36):
that's what we are supposed to do. Nothing in that
video that I witness said to me that that was
police protocol. What I witnessed, what appeared to me was
some police officers that were out of control and um
and it went bad, and it went bad real quickly
(08:58):
and almost went bad from the start. Absolutely absolutely, there
was no de escalation done. That was, like you said,
it appeared to me. Nobody stepped up and said, hey,
wait a minute, everybody calmed down. Let's you know, let's
explain to this individual what's going on. It just looked
bad from the beginning. And you know, that's troubling that
(09:20):
that video is troubling. I know a lot of Memphis
police officers. I'm from that area, and I can truthfully
say it is my prayer that the Memphis community and
society as a whole do not indict the entire Memphis
Police Department or that unit the action of these five individuals.
(09:41):
All that union has now been disbanded, right right, right, So,
but but but I would agree, and people look at
this tape and and maybe think the worst of the
police officers, um and what have been a different reaction
if the officers in this case, or some of the
officers were of a different race. I don't know the
(10:03):
answer to that. I know some agitators might try to
use it politically, but you know, in every profession, you
have good people and you have bad people. I can
tell you my profession, there are some jackasses. I can
name names I won't otherwise it'll consume my entire program.
One that is not on that list for sure, as
our colleague and our friend Gianno Caldwell's with us. Gianna,
(10:27):
what did you see when you were watching this and
you were on the ground for us Friday night? Yeah, Sean,
I absolutely was on the ground for you guys that
we actually talked to the family attorney being Crump, who
gave us an exclusive. You know, I couldn't believe that
the officers were willing to so brazenly do this on
their body cameras. And my only conclusion that I can
(10:49):
draw from that is they believe that they can get
away with it. And I say that because I'm gonna
be Frank here he was a young black male. These
are all black officers, you know, maybe just paperwork and
we move on. Maybe that was the conclusion in which
they drawn at the time. But what this says to
me is we need to open back up that discussion
that Tim Scott was having with the Democrats, who was
(11:13):
a negotiator when it came to police reform after George Floyd.
I think those conversations need to resume. Democrats were not
willing to really negotiate on issues of critical importance that
we can get something done, and that was their failure.
That's what that was. But now we need to get
back to the table because we see that bias and
(11:34):
bias training is absolutely needed. No matter what color the
officer is. You can be from a totally different background
and go to a place like the South side of
Chicago in Inglewood where you'll find a lot of aggressive
people who would cause the police officer the pull is gun. Now,
so to understand to understand these intricacies, I think it's
(11:56):
necessary for us to go back to the table and
start having those conversations so we can that everyone in stayed.
The officers included Sean jan Jano's my brother I love
them to death, but this is not a This is
not a legislation issue, man, This is not something that
needs to be fixed like that. All officers have enough,
they have enough policy, they have enough legislation out there
(12:17):
controlling their actions. We gotta what this was was bad
that bad officers behaving badly in the field. Right we
have mechanivers in place to address those type of behaviors.
We don't want to We don't want to prist this
down the line and say, hey, we need new legislation
so we can uh put officers in the classroom and
train them on how to treat black people. Man, this
is a city that's six to five percent black. Most
(12:40):
of the police officers are black. They know how to
treat black people. This was a behavioral issue with these
individual officers. So we have to move away from that. Man. Look,
I don't want to take take anything away from the
Memphis Police Department. I don't want to take anything away
from the training that these officers have had over the
older the long period of time that they've been with
this agency. Right now, we have democrats, we have liberals
(13:03):
hijack and his narrative so they can use it to
press for this, George Ford, build man. Look, if I'm
all that we are all about training, We are all
about training. We have enough of it. But we don't
need to keep blaming all police officers for the actors
of five but trading go. Let me ask you this,
because this is important. I don't see officers here that
(13:24):
implemented any of the training that I know that officers
go through. Because I'm friends with a ton of police officers,
people in law enforcement. None of their training seemed to
be utilized that with this young man. None of it.
And and I know I can tell you, you know,
simple simple jiu jitsu maneuvers. You know, when you have
(13:44):
five guys on one young man, this should be This
should not have been that difficult to cuff him. You
manipulate his fingers, you manipulate his wrist. He's going to comply,
and he's gonna comply quickly. You've got five guys there
to how and assist with getting those cuffs on this
young man. That was the culture of that particular unit,
(14:07):
right this unit. You gotta think about these disruption units.
I want you to think about this. For a thing.
They take these groups and they assign them to the
hot spot. These are these are areas that either have
a hot spiking and crime murders rate, whatever. And they
take these groups and they put them many specific areas
because they want them to be aggressive. That's why they
create them. They want them to be aggressive. And you
(14:27):
know what, these guys they took eight hundred guns off
the street last year, right, they probably made. I don't
know how many arrests that they've made. But if you
look at these disruption units across the country, they're the
ones that are breaking up these games. They're the ones
that are putting the drugs off the street. Sean, So
we gotta let's keep those units in playing. Let's teach
this was a bad actions of these. I'm not saying
(14:50):
not to keep the units in place, but I'm saying
that we need people with the right temperament and the
right training that would be better able to handle a
what should have been a route team case. This did
not need to rise to this level. I gotta take
a break. We'll come back more with Dallas Police. Sergeant
Sam Digby is with us, Trey Pennies with US, General
(15:11):
Callwells with us. We'll get to your calls. Also coming
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dot com. All right, we continue with our panel. We
have Dallas Police Sergeant Sam Digby is with us. Sergeant
Trey Penny, president of the National Fallen Officers Foundation, twenty
two year retired Dallas Police sergeant, our friend and colleague,
Giano Caldwell, who he was on the ground of Memphis
(16:58):
on Friday night. I'm not exactly sure where Joe Biden
is coming from on this, but you know, we now
know that Joe Biden as is opening a civil rights
investigation into this murder. Gianno, I know you wanted to
respond to what Trey Penny was saying earlier. Yeah, that's right, Trey,
I understand what you're saying. If for the officers necessarious,
(17:21):
they're going to be necessarious. But we also recognize that patterns,
not patterns, but practices. Training isn't universal. That was a
part of what they were looking to do in Congress
ensure that everyone would have a very similar training. So
I get what you're saying, but I also understand and
know and recognize my work with the National Organization of
Black Law Enforcement Executive that it is necessary for them
(17:44):
to have greater training. Now, if the officer is gonna
try to take someone's life, they're gonna go against their
their protocol and their sworn duties. They're gonna do that,
and certainly there should be greater penalties for that kind
of thing. But we do need more training, bar none,
and and just to jump right in there about I'm
not gonna even try to attempt to justify no good
(18:07):
lawforce an answer. Will look at the videos and just
y any of that. My concern, my concern in the
whole deal is the amount of time or lack there
of that WET was taken to draw this conclusion. I'm
a firm believer that those ausers should be terminated and
(18:27):
should be fired for their actions, but it's even more
important that we do it the right way. We have
due process, the maintenance of rule, the law, all of
that comes into play. I would like to have seen,
you know, a situation whereby we gathered all of the
evidence and all of the evidence, including the autopsic report,
(18:48):
the videos, and then once we gather all of the
evidence and put it together, then presented a case that's
rock solid through to the grand jury. Because when I
look at this case, I think about Freddy Gray. I
think about what happen up there in Baltimore here a
few years ago, where the rush to judgment and the
playing into the political scene in social media. Every one
(19:10):
of those officers was acquitted. Everyone on with a quit.
That's why I'm born with that, because there was such
a rush to you know, we want justice, where do
we want it now? I mean we had that going on. Well. Ferguson,
Missouri is another case where hands up, don't shoot. That
never happened, and in fact, it was the eyewitness testimony
(19:31):
of numerous African Americans in the community that confirmed that
what the officer had said happened indeed had happened. That
this guy had reached into his car, tried to grab
his gun, that was when the first shot was fired,
and that in fact, the guy turned around, charged at
the officer and that's when he had to defend himself,
(19:51):
and that all came out after the fact, but his
career was Overbud by that point he had he couldn't
be a policeman in that community any longer. And I
just want a situation whereby when we fire these officers,
bad officers that deserve to be fired. We fired them
one time and they don't end up getting their job
back on some technicality because we were so overzealous and
(20:13):
falling and caving to political pressures that we were willing
to do any and every well, well, one of the
things that's got to happen too. They have yet to
bifurcate out the role of each and every individual officer
in the situation. For example, the one officer you know
that made the run to to kick Tyree Nichols in
the head and then kick them in the head again. Um,
(20:35):
I would say, probably it was properly charged. I think
those guys wailing on him, they probably were properly charged.
But I don't know if every officer was involved in
that level of contact. Doesn't mean they didn't do things wrong,
but what it but is that second degree murder. I
can't tell because they we've never differentiated what officer did
what Trey, Yeah, you're absolutely right, but you know something,
(20:56):
This is the thing. The thing Sean, even if it's
the same as if there is a you and a
group of people going to a store, you roll off
that store and during this process you killed the clerk, right,
everyone in that situation is gonna be charged with capital murder, okay,
And in this situation, that's kind of what's happening. Now,
what's going to become a a mitigating circumstance to the
(21:18):
prosecution would be what each individual did once they actually
get it to trial. The problem is, we don't we
none of us have even seen the poor video. We're
gonta get bits and pieces. We don't know what led
to that initial interaction. We know the chief said that
they didn't have a reason to stop, but we don't
know what they're officer perceived or what that officer saw. Now,
everything that happened after that, I would say there were
(21:40):
definitely some training issues or maybe that was just a
pattern in practice or bad behavior. Right, And like I
told you, I talked to you before about these these
these different disruption type groups. They're designed to be more aggressive.
So if if they and if they didn't, if we
didn't have the video, we would have never known what
these officers were doing out there in the field. So
(22:01):
I'm glad to think that we do have the video.
But that's gonna be a big part of the criminal
cave going forward in determining who's gonna be charged with
what or who or which cases are going to be.
More so, they're gonna allow some some plea bargains in
these cases going forward. Let me ask you, Joanna is
somebody that lost his own younger brother in a senseless
(22:22):
shooting and he was just an innocent victim in the
wrong place at the wrong time, But that they've not
done a thing or lifted a finger to protect the
innocent people that live in Chicago. I've been scrolling names
of people whose names nobody ever hears of for since
two thousand and nine, and nobody seems to care, and
the police there have made no dramatic change that I
(22:43):
can see. The murder rate continues. You know, on any
average weekend, you can predict with some degree of certainty
how many shootings will occur, how many people will be shot,
and how many people will be shot and killed. Yeah,
and things have gotten much worse than Chicago with Mirror
and Laurie Life, who implemented a no chase policy which
(23:04):
ensure that officers cannot chase the suspect on foot and
if they're in a car, they have to call their
supervisor to get permission to chase them in the car.
Things are dramatically worse since Lightfood has taken over and
she's ensure that the crime crisis continues. The only sign
of relief I think anyone in the city of Chicago
(23:25):
could potentially have is her losing her reelection. Bed with
her reelection, the election is on Thebruary twenty eighth, I
think it in so Yeah. With that consideration, I think
we all need to be considerate of the crime crisis.
We need to know what laws are on the books
and what laws may potentially come on the books. They
ensure that our safety and I'm hoping that those that
(23:49):
live in the Chicago area will work with the police
because they need to end that no snitch culture. That's
a part of the issue. They're not working with the police,
they're not telling me who's committing the rons because they
believe that their lives could be in danger. But the
truth of the matter is their lives are in danger
already with them not telling because someone can shoot through
(24:10):
their window at night. Well that Giana, it even goes
deeper than that. The cops that they don't feel like
they're going to be defended if they go to do
their job, and when they probably should be turning left
to protecting us some people and serve their community, they're
turning right on purpose. That's true too, That's very, very
very true. So they want to stay out of the
way of what could potentially happen to them, especially with
(24:31):
you have a mayor who's willing to throw you under
the bus just to save her own high So yeah,
those are a bunch of different considerations that people have
to think about. But at the end of the day,
you've become a police officer, so you can serve and
protect and that's what people should want. So the elected
officials have to stop making it hard for those who
are in the job for the right reason, who want
(24:51):
to serve and protect, who are honorable, which I would
argue is the majority of those who sware the oath
of office, of the oath or the badge. They need
to get out of the way, so these police officers
can do their job and make sure that they have
the proper training needed. But let me ask all three
of you, would would the reaction nationwide have been different
if the officers in this case or of another race.
(25:14):
Ty No, I mean, the bottom line is, um, it's
as bad as it as it exists in behavior in
itself is really bad. But I do think that the
that the race vaders, like your al Shafts and those
kind of guys, they would jump out there if this
would if he were white officers doing this, they would
have wrapped this up. You would have Black lives matter.
And by the way, I did ask Congress back in
(25:37):
back in July to create investigations to acting launch against again,
investigations into the George Floor Ryan, and nobody has chosen
to take that direction, so we can actually get up
make sure if this doesn't happen again. But yeah, if
it was white officers involved in black officers, that would
be amplified to make it look like more of a
race issue than and they're trying to do it now,
(25:58):
but they don't go go nowhere. They would absolutely if
it was white officers, and that's only because of the
late Baders that a user social media to wrap that
message up right off. Final moments with Sam Digby, Trey
Penny and Gianno Colwell, I'm trying to understand, Sam, how
is it? Why were these officers so jacked up and
so pissed off and so angry and frankly lacking in
(26:21):
all professionalism that I would expect from a police officer. Well, Sean,
you know, let's face it, our police officers come from
our communities. A lot of people, I'm not gonna say
a lot, but they're some They go into this profession
for the wrong reason, unfortunately, and we had to be
very careful that we're not creating an environment which is
(26:43):
discouraging the good people from wanting to serve, because, make
no mistake, police department's gonna have to hire somebody and
if all of a sudden we create an environment with
the good people, the good men and women who would
be good for this profession are choosing other professions because
of what's happening. That leads a joke delers, gang bangers
(27:03):
in the street, good ones you know to pick from,
and you know, begg you look, you have a situation
where this one's steal up your ranks and we can't
have that. We cannot have that, so you know we
have to do a better. Well, I'll give you an example.
People ask me all the time. Young people will ask
me about, you know, pursuing a passion or a career,
and I'll ask them what they're interested in, and if
(27:24):
they mentioned policing or law enforcement, I'm like, well, where
do you want to work, because being a police officer
you really do get to do your job. In other states,
like the state of Florida, you can do real policing.
I know cops down there, they're allowed to do their
job and they do it with great courage and professionalism.
And yet if somebody asked me if they want to
(27:46):
join the NYPD or the Chicago Police Force, I tell
them to go run a country mile before they even
think about it. Am I Am I wrong? Am I Gianno?
You lost your brother? Am I wrong? No? I don't
think that you are rock shot. I mean, at the
end of the day, when you're talking about what profession
was the golden at any given times, it's been law enforcement.
(28:10):
To be a police officer growing up was actually a
dream of mine when I was a young man, and
then it became politics and a bunch of other things.
But I think that there are reforms that have to
take place in order for the integrity the thoughts around
law enforcement we can get back to what they were.
I understand that there's a lot of things that need
(28:31):
to change at this particular time. There are considerations to
be had, but those things can happen if we can
unite and comfy as a country versus dividing around racial
and political lines. Can I add this to you. I
want to add this. We brought up New York. I
will say that the citizens in New York they need
(28:52):
police as well. And these are police that are come
from a community that are going to understand these communities.
My such, by the way, New York is a majority
minority police force, as are many police forces now across
the country, and you need officers that want to that
want to come in the healthy community. So I'm going
(29:14):
to encourage every young man, every person that listens to
every young man, every young woman that listens to this
radio station, please consider joining law enforce that don't allow
allow these situations to deter you going into this profession,
because these communities lead you. I don't know if I
could give that advice in certain cities. I really don't tray.
And you know how much I love law enforcement and
(29:36):
I have a family full of law enforcement. But things
have changed and changed dramatically. And I'm not saying that
there weren't bad apples back in the day either. There's
bad apples. And every profession I mentioned mine profession, Sam
will give you the last word. Well, I just want
to say that for all them hard working men and
women out there in uniform, you know, keep up the
(29:59):
good work. You know, we need you. For those young
people out there that's considering joining law enforcement, we need
you as well. And I agree with you Sean. Yeah,
in law enforcement, depending on what's part of the country
and it's localized, and some areas you're able to do more,
some marriage you're able to do less. But regardless, you know,
we have to adapt to just and overcome to the
(30:20):
areas in which we serve, because you cannot police a
community that does not want to be policed. Well said,
and that was my point. You know, if a community
does not want to be police, if a city doesn't
want to be policed, if it's leadership doesn't want real policing,
that's probably not the place to do to try and
do that job because you're not gonna have support. Appreciate
(30:41):
all of you, Sam Digby, thank you, Trey Penny, thank you,
Gianno Caldwell, thank you, thank you all. We appreciate it.
Eight hundred and ninety four one Sean our number you
want to be a part of the program, will get
your calls some of the other news of the day
on the other side of the break
All right, our two Sean Hannity Show toll free. It's
eight hundred and nine for one, Shawn, if you want
to be a part of the program over the weekend.
The narrative, the commentary of now even elected officials that
what happened in the case of Tyree Nichols had to
do with race is kind of jarring to me in
(00:23):
many many ways. As everybody involved in this case we're
African Americans, black Americans. I'm trying to understand where this
narrative is coming from. Despite the fact that the victim,
all five now accused perpetrators in this case, we're black.
(00:44):
You have New York City Mayor Eric Adams on fake
News CNN this morning saying that race played a major
role in nichols murder. Uh don Lemon over there brought
up the previous conversation with the Memphis Police chief where
she said, quote, race is off the table. Now, the
question was Chief Davis says that because all the officers
(01:05):
were black, it takes race off the table. Do you
agree with that? No, I don't. I think race is
still on the table when a culture of policing historically
has treated those from different groups differently, even when the
individuals are from the same group, that culture can still exist.
And you have over at fake News, CNN's Van Jones
writing an editorial opinion that police who killed Tyree Nichols
(01:28):
were black, but they might have been driven by racism,
you know, and said black people are not immune to
anti black messages. And one of the sad facts about
the anti black racism is that black people ourselves are
not immune to its pernicious effects. Society's message that black
people are inferior, unworthy, and dangerous is pervasive. And you know,
(01:51):
then we had other comments the Communications Workers of Workers
of America said, once again, our country's confronted with the brutal,
deadly reality of the effects of structural racism on Black Americans.
And once again a man has been murdered by police
officers during a traffic stop. The Philly Inquirer they had
an op ed as another black man dies at the
(02:13):
hands of police, a lesson in whom the system stands
up for. Perhaps like so many who get caught up
in racist systems. They the officers believed it when they
were told that they were part of a team MPR.
Same thing, Al Sharpton, same thing, you know, race is involved,
and it goes on and on and on. Let me
(02:35):
play a montage of some of this, then we'll bring
in our panel. This is an outrage and race still
is involved. Joeys, you and I spoke about on the phone.
I don't those five cops would have done that to
a young white on a traffic stop. Not surprised the
officers here were black, because when we talk about race
and policing, we talk about the way black men, black women,
(02:59):
black people are perceived in the way they are perceived
by all of us, and so anti black racism, the
idea of thinking of black men and women as prone
to violence, as dangerous, as bigger or stronger, or more
insiduous than they really are, something that can affect all
of our minds, and black people are not immune from
that as well. There's this very simplistic notion that says, well,
(03:22):
if a white cop is doing something to an unarmed
black person, and that's racism, But we sometimes forget. Unfortunately,
African Americans can also be guilty of hatred and bias
and bigotry against other African Americans. But I think a
race is still on the table when a culture of
policing historically has treated those from different groups differently, even
(03:47):
when the individuals are from that same group. That culture
can still exists, and we have to zero in on it,
being honest about it, and making sure that we properly
train police for the realities of the cities that they
are police. It shouldn't be a surprise to people that
individual black people can actually do anti black things. Anyone
(04:09):
who knows the history of enslavement, Anyone who knows the
history of policing, knows that black people can do anti
black things, and communities of color they often have different
types of policing than many of our white brothers or
sisters have in their community. And this video illustrates it
(04:31):
that it's this culture that says it doesn't matter whether
the police officers are black, Hispanic, or white, that it
is somehow allowed for you to tramp on the constitutional
rights of certain citizens from certain ethnicities and certain communities.
All right, So there you hear it. I mean, it
(04:52):
was almost a narrative that was so widespread it kind
of shocked me a little bit. But anyway, here to
put some on it, we have Dallas Police Sergeant Sam
Digby's with us. He's from Memphis. Trey Penny, president of
the Fallen Officers Foundation, twenty two year retired Dallas Police sergeant.
Our friend and colleague Giano Caldwell. Don't forget he wrote
(05:16):
his best selling book, How Conservatism Can Win Back the
Americans that liberalism failed. You might recall back in June
of last year, he lost his younger brother, who was
a victim and innocent victim, in a shooting on the
streets of Chicago. Like so many others, have welcome all
of you back to the program. Trey, let me start
with you. You've been at this and now retired, and
(05:40):
I'm listening to these comments that I'm thinking, No, we
had we had five cops that are supposed to be
part of an elite unit that had no clue about
basic policing. One on one. There were five big, strong,
supposedly trained cops that were incapable of cuffing one suspect. Yeah, absolutely, Searan,
Look this there is a case of police misconduct. I'm
(06:03):
looking at the whole thing from this broad spectrum. Look,
I want to offer my condolens to that family, but
the reality is we cannot allow that one incident involved
in these officers. I meant the Memphis Police Department and
law enforcement as a home. And we do have to remember,
in the days after this, we've been hearing all this
stuff about racism and training in police league. That's not
(06:27):
the case. Guys. You have to realize that there is
a there is a reason for these type of groups
to exist. The Scorpion Unit existed for a reason, right
They go after the bold crime. Every police department across
this country has a unit similar to that, and you
have to have them. In Memphis. They had three hundred
murders last year, thirty five of them were kids under
(06:47):
the age of fourteen, and you've got this unit is
gonna be the unit that's going after those individuals. So
I think the response to what happened on that day
to this, to this young man, I think the response
was to that was on sean, and we got to
bring that into focus because it's gonna hurt last for
McGing forward, I heard a lot of egos involved here
(07:08):
and anger on the part of the officers. You know
what I was looking for the whole time, Sam Digby.
I mean, you're a police sergeant, you know better than me.
I was waiting for one of these officers. You know,
obviously this young man was was shocked and disturbed in
the sense that he didn't know what was going on.
He felt like he was being manhandled. He didn't understand
(07:30):
why he was stopped, and that seems to be I'm
sure that's a frequent occurrence, to be honest with you,
and anyway, there was there wasn't the one cop that said,
all right, everybody, just calmed down. I need you to
take a deep breath. I need you to listen to me. Well,
nobody needs to get hurt here. There are five of us,
as one of you. We have reason to believe you
(07:51):
were driving recklessly and we need to do our job.
We don't want you to get hurt, so we're gonna
need your operation to make sure that that happens instead
of cops literally you know, running five steps and then
and then kicking this kid in the head, and then
you know, stepping back three steps and running again and
kicking him again in the head, or just beating the
(08:13):
crap out of them, which is what we witnessed. Or
you're absolutely right and thanks for having me. Um. It's
my condolescence to the family. The Nichols family. No families
should have to endure or watching that loved one or
anyone be abused like that at the hands of police officers.
Police officers in the community to serve and protect, and
(08:36):
that's what we are supposed to do. Nothing in that
video that I witness said to me that that was
police protocol. What I witnessed, what appeared to me was
some police officers that were out of control and um
and it went bad, and it went bad real quickly
(08:58):
and almost went bad from the start. Absolutely absolutely, there
was no de escalation done. That was, like you said,
it appeared to me. Nobody stepped up and said, hey,
wait a minute, everybody calmed down. Let's you know, let's
explain to this individual what's going on. It just looked
bad from the beginning. And you know, that's troubling that
(09:20):
that video is troubling. I know a lot of Memphis
police officers. I'm from that area, and I can truthfully
say it is my prayer that the Memphis community and
society as a whole do not indict the entire Memphis
Police Department or that unit the action of these five individuals.
(09:41):
All that union has now been disbanded, right right, right, So,
but but but I would agree, and people look at
this tape and and maybe think the worst of the
police officers, um and what have been a different reaction
if the officers in this case, or some of the
officers were of a different race. I don't know the
(10:03):
answer to that. I know some agitators might try to
use it politically, but you know, in every profession, you
have good people and you have bad people. I can
tell you my profession, there are some jackasses. I can
name names I won't otherwise it'll consume my entire program.
One that is not on that list for sure, as
our colleague and our friend Gianno Caldwell's with us. Gianna,
(10:27):
what did you see when you were watching this and
you were on the ground for us Friday night? Yeah, Sean,
I absolutely was on the ground for you guys that
we actually talked to the family attorney being Crump, who
gave us an exclusive. You know, I couldn't believe that
the officers were willing to so brazenly do this on
their body cameras. And my only conclusion that I can
(10:49):
draw from that is they believe that they can get
away with it. And I say that because I'm gonna
be Frank here he was a young black male. These
are all black officers, you know, maybe just paperwork and
we move on. Maybe that was the conclusion in which
they drawn at the time. But what this says to
me is we need to open back up that discussion
that Tim Scott was having with the Democrats, who was
(11:13):
a negotiator when it came to police reform after George Floyd.
I think those conversations need to resume. Democrats were not
willing to really negotiate on issues of critical importance that
we can get something done, and that was their failure.
That's what that was. But now we need to get
back to the table because we see that bias and
(11:34):
bias training is absolutely needed. No matter what color the
officer is. You can be from a totally different background
and go to a place like the South side of
Chicago in Inglewood where you'll find a lot of aggressive
people who would cause the police officer the pull is gun. Now,
so to understand to understand these intricacies, I think it's
(11:56):
necessary for us to go back to the table and
start having those conversations so we can that everyone in stayed.
The officers included Sean jan Jano's my brother I love
them to death, but this is not a This is
not a legislation issue, man, This is not something that
needs to be fixed like that. All officers have enough,
they have enough policy, they have enough legislation out there
(12:17):
controlling their actions. We gotta what this was was bad
that bad officers behaving badly in the field. Right we
have mechanivers in place to address those type of behaviors.
We don't want to We don't want to prist this
down the line and say, hey, we need new legislation
so we can uh put officers in the classroom and
train them on how to treat black people. Man, this
is a city that's six to five percent black. Most
(12:40):
of the police officers are black. They know how to
treat black people. This was a behavioral issue with these
individual officers. So we have to move away from that. Man. Look,
I don't want to take take anything away from the
Memphis Police Department. I don't want to take anything away
from the training that these officers have had over the
older the long period of time that they've been with
this agency. Right now, we have democrats, we have liberals
(13:03):
hijack and his narrative so they can use it to
press for this, George Ford, build man. Look, if I'm
all that we are all about training, We are all
about training. We have enough of it. But we don't
need to keep blaming all police officers for the actors
of five but trading go. Let me ask you this,
because this is important. I don't see officers here that
(13:24):
implemented any of the training that I know that officers
go through. Because I'm friends with a ton of police officers,
people in law enforcement. None of their training seemed to
be utilized that with this young man. None of it.
And and I know I can tell you, you know,
simple simple jiu jitsu maneuvers. You know, when you have
(13:44):
five guys on one young man, this should be This
should not have been that difficult to cuff him. You
manipulate his fingers, you manipulate his wrist. He's going to comply,
and he's gonna comply quickly. You've got five guys there
to how and assist with getting those cuffs on this
young man. That was the culture of that particular unit,
(14:07):
right this unit. You gotta think about these disruption units.
I want you to think about this. For a thing.
They take these groups and they assign them to the
hot spot. These are these are areas that either have
a hot spiking and crime murders rate, whatever. And they
take these groups and they put them many specific areas
because they want them to be aggressive. That's why they
create them. They want them to be aggressive. And you
(14:27):
know what, these guys they took eight hundred guns off
the street last year, right, they probably made. I don't
know how many arrests that they've made. But if you
look at these disruption units across the country, they're the
ones that are breaking up these games. They're the ones
that are putting the drugs off the street. Sean, So
we gotta let's keep those units in playing. Let's teach
this was a bad actions of these. I'm not saying
(14:50):
not to keep the units in place, but I'm saying
that we need people with the right temperament and the
right training that would be better able to handle a
what should have been a route team case. This did
not need to rise to this level. I gotta take
a break. We'll come back more with Dallas Police. Sergeant
Sam Digby is with us, Trey Pennies with US, General
(15:11):
Callwells with us. We'll get to your calls. Also coming
up soon. Twenty fives at the top of the hour.
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dot com. All right, we continue with our panel. We
have Dallas Police Sergeant Sam Digby is with us. Sergeant
Trey Penny, president of the National Fallen Officers Foundation, twenty
two year retired Dallas Police sergeant, our friend and colleague,
Giano Caldwell, who he was on the ground of Memphis
(16:58):
on Friday night. I'm not exactly sure where Joe Biden
is coming from on this, but you know, we now
know that Joe Biden as is opening a civil rights
investigation into this murder. Gianno, I know you wanted to
respond to what Trey Penny was saying earlier. Yeah, that's right, Trey,
I understand what you're saying. If for the officers necessarious,
(17:21):
they're going to be necessarious. But we also recognize that patterns,
not patterns, but practices. Training isn't universal. That was a
part of what they were looking to do in Congress
ensure that everyone would have a very similar training. So
I get what you're saying, but I also understand and
know and recognize my work with the National Organization of
Black Law Enforcement Executive that it is necessary for them
(17:44):
to have greater training. Now, if the officer is gonna
try to take someone's life, they're gonna go against their
their protocol and their sworn duties. They're gonna do that,
and certainly there should be greater penalties for that kind
of thing. But we do need more training, bar none,
and and just to jump right in there about I'm
not gonna even try to attempt to justify no good
(18:07):
lawforce an answer. Will look at the videos and just
y any of that. My concern, my concern in the
whole deal is the amount of time or lack there
of that WET was taken to draw this conclusion. I'm
a firm believer that those ausers should be terminated and
(18:27):
should be fired for their actions, but it's even more
important that we do it the right way. We have
due process, the maintenance of rule, the law, all of
that comes into play. I would like to have seen,
you know, a situation whereby we gathered all of the
evidence and all of the evidence, including the autopsic report,
(18:48):
the videos, and then once we gather all of the
evidence and put it together, then presented a case that's
rock solid through to the grand jury. Because when I
look at this case, I think about Freddy Gray. I
think about what happen up there in Baltimore here a
few years ago, where the rush to judgment and the
playing into the political scene in social media. Every one
(19:10):
of those officers was acquitted. Everyone on with a quit.
That's why I'm born with that, because there was such
a rush to you know, we want justice, where do
we want it now? I mean we had that going on. Well. Ferguson,
Missouri is another case where hands up, don't shoot. That
never happened, and in fact, it was the eyewitness testimony
(19:31):
of numerous African Americans in the community that confirmed that
what the officer had said happened indeed had happened. That
this guy had reached into his car, tried to grab
his gun, that was when the first shot was fired,
and that in fact, the guy turned around, charged at
the officer and that's when he had to defend himself,
(19:51):
and that all came out after the fact, but his
career was Overbud by that point he had he couldn't
be a policeman in that community any longer. And I
just want a situation whereby when we fire these officers,
bad officers that deserve to be fired. We fired them
one time and they don't end up getting their job
back on some technicality because we were so overzealous and
(20:13):
falling and caving to political pressures that we were willing
to do any and every well, well, one of the
things that's got to happen too. They have yet to
bifurcate out the role of each and every individual officer
in the situation. For example, the one officer you know
that made the run to to kick Tyree Nichols in
the head and then kick them in the head again. Um,
(20:35):
I would say, probably it was properly charged. I think
those guys wailing on him, they probably were properly charged.
But I don't know if every officer was involved in
that level of contact. Doesn't mean they didn't do things wrong,
but what it but is that second degree murder. I
can't tell because they we've never differentiated what officer did
what Trey, Yeah, you're absolutely right, but you know something,
(20:56):
This is the thing. The thing Sean, even if it's
the same as if there is a you and a
group of people going to a store, you roll off
that store and during this process you killed the clerk, right,
everyone in that situation is gonna be charged with capital murder, okay,
And in this situation, that's kind of what's happening. Now,
what's going to become a a mitigating circumstance to the
(21:18):
prosecution would be what each individual did once they actually
get it to trial. The problem is, we don't we
none of us have even seen the poor video. We're
gonta get bits and pieces. We don't know what led
to that initial interaction. We know the chief said that
they didn't have a reason to stop, but we don't
know what they're officer perceived or what that officer saw. Now,
everything that happened after that, I would say there were
(21:40):
definitely some training issues or maybe that was just a
pattern in practice or bad behavior. Right, And like I
told you, I talked to you before about these these
these different disruption type groups. They're designed to be more aggressive.
So if if they and if they didn't, if we
didn't have the video, we would have never known what
these officers were doing out there in the field. So
(22:01):
I'm glad to think that we do have the video.
But that's gonna be a big part of the criminal
cave going forward in determining who's gonna be charged with
what or who or which cases are going to be.
More so, they're gonna allow some some plea bargains in
these cases going forward. Let me ask you, Joanna is
somebody that lost his own younger brother in a senseless
(22:22):
shooting and he was just an innocent victim in the
wrong place at the wrong time, But that they've not
done a thing or lifted a finger to protect the
innocent people that live in Chicago. I've been scrolling names
of people whose names nobody ever hears of for since
two thousand and nine, and nobody seems to care, and
the police there have made no dramatic change that I
(22:43):
can see. The murder rate continues. You know, on any
average weekend, you can predict with some degree of certainty
how many shootings will occur, how many people will be shot,
and how many people will be shot and killed. Yeah,
and things have gotten much worse than Chicago with Mirror
and Laurie Life, who implemented a no chase policy which
(23:04):
ensure that officers cannot chase the suspect on foot and
if they're in a car, they have to call their
supervisor to get permission to chase them in the car.
Things are dramatically worse since Lightfood has taken over and
she's ensure that the crime crisis continues. The only sign
of relief I think anyone in the city of Chicago
(23:25):
could potentially have is her losing her reelection. Bed with
her reelection, the election is on Thebruary twenty eighth, I
think it in so Yeah. With that consideration, I think
we all need to be considerate of the crime crisis.
We need to know what laws are on the books
and what laws may potentially come on the books. They
ensure that our safety and I'm hoping that those that
(23:49):
live in the Chicago area will work with the police
because they need to end that no snitch culture. That's
a part of the issue. They're not working with the police,
they're not telling me who's committing the rons because they
believe that their lives could be in danger. But the
truth of the matter is their lives are in danger
already with them not telling because someone can shoot through
(24:10):
their window at night. Well that Giana, it even goes
deeper than that. The cops that they don't feel like
they're going to be defended if they go to do
their job, and when they probably should be turning left
to protecting us some people and serve their community, they're
turning right on purpose. That's true too, That's very, very
very true. So they want to stay out of the
way of what could potentially happen to them, especially with
(24:31):
you have a mayor who's willing to throw you under
the bus just to save her own high So yeah,
those are a bunch of different considerations that people have
to think about. But at the end of the day,
you've become a police officer, so you can serve and
protect and that's what people should want. So the elected
officials have to stop making it hard for those who
are in the job for the right reason, who want
(24:51):
to serve and protect, who are honorable, which I would
argue is the majority of those who sware the oath
of office, of the oath or the badge. They need
to get out of the way, so these police officers
can do their job and make sure that they have
the proper training needed. But let me ask all three
of you, would would the reaction nationwide have been different
if the officers in this case or of another race.
(25:14):
Ty No, I mean, the bottom line is, um, it's
as bad as it as it exists in behavior in
itself is really bad. But I do think that the
that the race vaders, like your al Shafts and those
kind of guys, they would jump out there if this
would if he were white officers doing this, they would
have wrapped this up. You would have Black lives matter.
And by the way, I did ask Congress back in
(25:37):
back in July to create investigations to acting launch against again,
investigations into the George Floor Ryan, and nobody has chosen
to take that direction, so we can actually get up
make sure if this doesn't happen again. But yeah, if
it was white officers involved in black officers, that would
be amplified to make it look like more of a
race issue than and they're trying to do it now,
(25:58):
but they don't go go nowhere. They would absolutely if
it was white officers, and that's only because of the
late Baders that a user social media to wrap that
message up right off. Final moments with Sam Digby, Trey
Penny and Gianno Colwell, I'm trying to understand, Sam, how
is it? Why were these officers so jacked up and
so pissed off and so angry and frankly lacking in
(26:21):
all professionalism that I would expect from a police officer. Well, Sean,
you know, let's face it, our police officers come from
our communities. A lot of people, I'm not gonna say
a lot, but they're some They go into this profession
for the wrong reason, unfortunately, and we had to be
very careful that we're not creating an environment which is
(26:43):
discouraging the good people from wanting to serve, because, make
no mistake, police department's gonna have to hire somebody and
if all of a sudden we create an environment with
the good people, the good men and women who would
be good for this profession are choosing other professions because
of what's happening. That leads a joke delers, gang bangers
(27:03):
in the street, good ones you know to pick from,
and you know, begg you look, you have a situation
where this one's steal up your ranks and we can't
have that. We cannot have that, so you know we
have to do a better. Well, I'll give you an example.
People ask me all the time. Young people will ask
me about, you know, pursuing a passion or a career,
and I'll ask them what they're interested in, and if
(27:24):
they mentioned policing or law enforcement, I'm like, well, where
do you want to work, because being a police officer
you really do get to do your job. In other states,
like the state of Florida, you can do real policing.
I know cops down there, they're allowed to do their
job and they do it with great courage and professionalism.
And yet if somebody asked me if they want to
(27:46):
join the NYPD or the Chicago Police Force, I tell
them to go run a country mile before they even
think about it. Am I Am I wrong? Am I Gianno?
You lost your brother? Am I wrong? No? I don't
think that you are rock shot. I mean, at the
end of the day, when you're talking about what profession
was the golden at any given times, it's been law enforcement.
(28:10):
To be a police officer growing up was actually a
dream of mine when I was a young man, and
then it became politics and a bunch of other things.
But I think that there are reforms that have to
take place in order for the integrity the thoughts around
law enforcement we can get back to what they were.
I understand that there's a lot of things that need
(28:31):
to change at this particular time. There are considerations to
be had, but those things can happen if we can
unite and comfy as a country versus dividing around racial
and political lines. Can I add this to you. I
want to add this. We brought up New York. I
will say that the citizens in New York they need
(28:52):
police as well. And these are police that are come
from a community that are going to understand these communities.
My such, by the way, New York is a majority
minority police force, as are many police forces now across
the country, and you need officers that want to that
want to come in the healthy community. So I'm going
(29:14):
to encourage every young man, every person that listens to
every young man, every young woman that listens to this
radio station, please consider joining law enforce that don't allow
allow these situations to deter you going into this profession,
because these communities lead you. I don't know if I
could give that advice in certain cities. I really don't tray.
And you know how much I love law enforcement and
(29:36):
I have a family full of law enforcement. But things
have changed and changed dramatically. And I'm not saying that
there weren't bad apples back in the day either. There's
bad apples. And every profession I mentioned mine profession, Sam
will give you the last word. Well, I just want
to say that for all them hard working men and
women out there in uniform, you know, keep up the
(29:59):
good work. You know, we need you. For those young
people out there that's considering joining law enforcement, we need
you as well. And I agree with you Sean. Yeah,
in law enforcement, depending on what's part of the country
and it's localized, and some areas you're able to do more,
some marriage you're able to do less. But regardless, you know,
we have to adapt to just and overcome to the
(30:20):
areas in which we serve, because you cannot police a
community that does not want to be policed. Well said,
and that was my point. You know, if a community
does not want to be police, if a city doesn't
want to be policed, if it's leadership doesn't want real policing,
that's probably not the place to do to try and
do that job because you're not gonna have support. Appreciate
(30:41):
all of you, Sam Digby, thank you, Trey Penny, thank you,
Gianno Caldwell, thank you, thank you all. We appreciate it.
Eight hundred and ninety four one Sean our number you
want to be a part of the program, will get
your calls some of the other news of the day
on the other side of the break
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