In this episode of All Things Book Marketing, Marissa Eigenbrood, President of Smith Publicity, welcomes Kevin Anderson, CEO of Kevin Anderson & Associates, for an insightful discussion on the evolving landscape of ghostwriting and book publishing.
Kevin shares how his unexpected entry into ghostwriting shaped his career and offers a behind-the-scenes look at the collaboration process between ghostwriters and authors. He emphasizes the importance of a holistic approach to book writing, where the marketing strategy is considered from the very beginning to maximize impact.
Kevin also delves into the rise of hybrid publishing, offering authors more control over their publishing goals, and highlights how books serve as investments in thought leadership, elevating an author’s credibility beyond book sales.
With advice on choosing the right ghostwriter and navigating the publishing journey, this episode is packed with valuable insights for nonfiction authors, publishing professionals, and anyone looking to understand the dynamics of book writing and marketing. Tune in to learn from Kevin’s experience and expertise in shaping bestselling books and thought leadership brands.
Kevin shares how his unexpected entry into ghostwriting shaped his career and offers a behind-the-scenes look at the collaboration process between ghostwriters and authors. He emphasizes the importance of a holistic approach to book writing, where the marketing strategy is considered from the very beginning to maximize impact.
Kevin also delves into the rise of hybrid publishing, offering authors more control over their publishing goals, and highlights how books serve as investments in thought leadership, elevating an author’s credibility beyond book sales.
With advice on choosing the right ghostwriter and navigating the publishing journey, this episode is packed with valuable insights for nonfiction authors, publishing professionals, and anyone looking to understand the dynamics of book writing and marketing. Tune in to learn from Kevin’s experience and expertise in shaping bestselling books and thought leadership brands.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights, and advice from the best in the
publishing industry. Hello everyone, and welcome to the All Things
Book Marketing Podcast. I am your host today Marisa Eigenbrud,
the President and partner at Smith Publicity, and today I
(00:22):
am super excited as we talk about all things ghostwriting.
No better time than the month of October to have
Kevin Anderson joining us today. Kevin Anderson longtime friend of
Smith Publicities, and he is the CEO and founder of
Kevin Anderson and Associates.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Kevin, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Of course, my pleasure. Thanks for having me wonderful.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So I'm just going to give everyone a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Of a bio background or on you first, and then
we'll jump into some awesome questions and discussion points today. So,
Kevin Anderson is a number one New York Times best
selling editor, a number one national best selling author, and
an entrepreneur and founder of multiple seven and eight figure
editorial service businesses.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
He's a busy guy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
His flagship company, Kevin Anderson and Associates KAA, has offices
in New York, LA, Nashville, and London and serves more
than five hundred authors per year while supporting a network
of five hundred plus freelance writers and editors. Ka's in
office staff of thirty former Big Five executive editors, literary
(01:29):
agents and best selling writers have combined to produce more
than two hundred New York Times bestsellers, six hundred national bestsellers,
and launch five thousand plus first time authors.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Some big numbers there.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So great, serving a wide range of celebrities, spot laiders.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And inspirational authors.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
KAA is responsible for launching the number one New York
Times bestselling YA series Five Nights at Freddy's by Scott Cowthorn,
the New York Times bestseller Welcome to un Mifflin, The
Ultimate Oral History of the Office by actor Brian Bogartner
Boegartner and former NBC co chairman Ben Silverman, and the
(02:12):
Wall Street Journal bestseller Built Not Born by multi billionaire
Tom Golisano, among many others. This also goes into Kevin's
other founding businesses and Kevin is originally from Canada, currently
lives in Boston with his wife, four young children, and
a red lab named Marbella. Kevin somewhere incredibly busy and
(02:39):
and just such an incredible career and track record within KAA.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
But let's go before it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Before ka for a minute here, tell us all about
how you got into ghostwriting.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Yeah, you know, it was never part of the plan
to get into ghost writing. It kind of just happened.
One thing kind of led to another. You know, when
I was in at school, I started working for a
tutoring company. And yeah, I'll try to keep I'll try
to keep the story short. It's one I go into
a lot of detail and when I'm on the business podcast.
(03:11):
But but but basically, you know, I started tutoring and
just realized that I really loved it and that, you know,
instead of working for somebody else, I could do better
on my own.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And I started advertising.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
For that service and I and I got so busy
that you know, I had more than I could handle.
So it just made sense to start hiring, you know,
my friends I was at I was doing my graduate
work at Harvard, so I had a really great network
of really of really great you know, potential tutors and
you know, especially from the English and Philosophy departments, and
and so so it started out as like a tutoring business,
(03:46):
just local to the Cambridge Boston area.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But then you know.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Things you know online, we were advertising online. We're actually
advertising through Craigslist of all things. Uh yeah, and some
people are started finding us from from other you know,
remotely and reaching out and and so at that point
we you know, and tutoring was so it was it
wasn't it was.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It was tough, you.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Know, like I mean, every you know, every client you'd
only be with for like an hour or two a week.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
There was a lot of logistics issues.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And then when people started reaching out online for online tutoring,
it just you know, it just made so much sense.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So we moved in that direction pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And then you know, advent of PayPal and things like
that will allowed us to do you know, make safe
transactions you know, across the country. But then we grew
this core of primarily just doing editing and tutoring. But
it was mostly I could relate it, you know. It
wasn't anything to do with books at first or ghost
writing of course, but but over but one day it
(04:49):
was actually a small a small hybrid publisher. Actually, I
would I would say it's more of a vanity press
than than what we call the publisher. Back then, there
was a lot more it was there's a lot more
of those kind of big vanity presses there weren't. There
weren't these great hybrid tis out now. And anyway, they
reached out and they were doing like thirty books a week.
It was the kind of press that you pay, like,
(05:10):
you know, thirty thousand dollars to have a book out,
and they all scratch the others backs and all the authors,
their other authors are endorsing their books and whatnot. Anyway,
they time with copy editing, so they hired they wanted
they were impressed with the Harvard credentials on our team,
and they wanted us to copy.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Edit their books.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And this just was like, this was a game changer
for us because we were used to tutoring and editing
and looking at like you know, ten to fifty page
like really thick academic type stuff and you know, editing
these books and these were really you know, they were
not the greatest books, but they were easy to read
and usually pretty poorly written.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But it's a lot more fun and it was a
lot and it.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Was easy, and it was much bigger projects at a time,
So it just came natural to kind of transition the
whole business that direction. So I at some point I
split up the company. I have another company that still
worked because it's it's transitioned a little bit. It just
works with people in the PhD process. It's called dissertation.
It has a UK office as well, called thesis editor
because in the UK they call dissertations thesis and THESS dissertations.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's like the opposite. But anyway, so they and that
still is.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
A staff of PhDs that that work in the academic field.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And then our and then.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
I I I broke off KAA to be its own
thing that really just focused on on the book industry
and you know, uh and editing in terms of ghostwriting.
How it got there, I mean it was just one
thing led to another. So they at one point they
sent us a manuscript that was just in such bad
shape that we said, look, we can't even edit this,
like we're not even at a point where we can
(06:43):
make this book work editorially, Like it needs to be
totally rewritten. They just said, so, well, can you rewrite it?
And you'll never never read Before no one on the
team had written a book or rewrote wrote rewrote a
book and and we said, sure, we can, we can
do that, and and so I I, you know, I
found somebody that could do it, that had written books before.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And and then again, you.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Know, the price point and everything was you know, it
was a bigger, bigger price point per ticket than what
we were doing. It just made sense from a business
standpoint to move in that direction. You know, it was
a long time ago. Since then, you know, we've hired
you know, you know, former executive editors from big five houses.
We most of our authors now have multiple bestsellers in
their own name. But at the time we were just
(07:26):
you know, we were just it was really just grinding
it out and any work that we thought we could do, we.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Would do it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
And and we never said no, you know, to to
any opportunities.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
That's where it all kind of started. Was one thing
to kind of led to another.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, yeah, I there's so much about those kind of
earlier days you've fallen kind of accidentally and in those spaces,
and and that's was very similar to our fat or
Dance story too, of kind of working alongside someone in
some other PR activities and.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They were writing a book and he said, hey, can
you promote my book. It's it's self published.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
We can't tell you know, nobody else wanted to touch
self published books. And yeah, Dan was like, yeah, but
absolutely I'll give it a go. Sure, you know, why
not and I kind of, you know, all all spurred
and the snowball got bigger and bigger from there too.
So it's it's so exciting to hear that story and
the power of just saying yes and get you know,
(08:24):
trying something new and.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Seeing where it goes.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It's it's so not it's not that far connected or
disconnected from the other work that you were doing. It
was just kind of always taking it to this next level,
the next level, this next level, and seeing how how
it would evolve. But but what incredible you know again,
and the journey is certainly not over. Those numbers are
going to get bigger and bigger, and that we shared
the bios the years go on here, Kevin, and these
(08:47):
things continue to grow in such exciting ways for for
your team.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, thinking for that.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah, it's just you know, and the thing about you
think about those early days, right, you're just saying yes,
but you're making sure you're taking respect pssibility.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
To do it right. You know, I wouldn't have the plan.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
But I always had the confidence and and also the
responsibility to make sure that I was going to deliver
on that. So you know, on the phone the publisher,
you're saying, of course we can do that, which means,
of course, I'm going to figure.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Out how to make that happen. I don't know exactly
how right now.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And then you know, that just led to discovering writers
and freelancers and figuring out the whole business.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
And and that's really happened publishing altogether. I mean, it
was all a learn as we went.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
We didn't come from a publishing background as a company,
is something that we really learned as we went, and
that was I felt like that really was a big
advantage to us because we could really speak our author's language,
because they a lot of the people are coming to us,
you know, they have no idea about the publishing industry.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
They don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
They're afraid of they don't it's very big and complicated,
and there's.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
They don't want to make it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And but we had to learn all those things, you know, ourselves,
kind of the hard way, and we came at it
from perspective that looked at a lot of different elements
of like it wasn't it wasn't just marketing or just writing.
I mean we were really looking at, Okay, what's the
big picture here for this author and how can we
how can we think about the right book for them,
write that book in a way and then figure out
(10:11):
how to publish it in a way that's going to
meet there you know, they're publishing goals and be of
value to them. So we didn't know. None of us
came from that background in publishing, so we had to
just really kind of we've learned it all on our
on our own, through you know, through experience. Yeah, we
feel like that's a good asset our clients because we've
you know, we figured it out we can and so
we're the kind of a good teacher to show them
(10:32):
the ropes, you know, having done it ourselves so many
times from from scratch.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I mean that's that's why we we love working with
you guys too, because we had that same background.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
There's no there was no publishing in the mix over here.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Most of us didn't even the currency, most did not
come from from traditional publishing and such.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I think that it's you.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Know, I I love that anytime your team may bring
someone our way or because we're having a conversation the
other way, to just it's looking at things in a
very holistic approach. It's really thinking about, Okay, we're not
just writing a book here, and we're not. And I
think that there is still a little bit of a disconnect,
truly transparently like there's a disconnector I think in traditional
(11:14):
publishing and with some agents still you know, there's an
old school mentality of we're just kind of thinking about
a book that's going to sell, and not how is
it going to sell?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Who is it going to be sold to?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
It's just like, how do we make this as appealing
to everyone as possible? And I think in today's world,
especially in the power of really Niching.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Down and such, the more you're thinking about from the very.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Beginning, how do I write a book, then publish it,
then market it in a way that's going to really
speak to a specific audience. It's not going to you know,
it's not going to well everybody in right away, but
it's not going to shut out other people. So there's
an opportunity to still grow that connection. I just always
really loved seeing that your team is so much more
(11:59):
than just ghostwriting and editing. And it really is again
that I'm thinking about things from that holistic perspective. Yeah,
and it's us we don't get a chance to control
it that early on. I take so many people. I'm like,
I'm always happy to have a conversation with someone because
if I can just plant those seeds about marketing and publicity,
you know, we're the.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Last shoot to drop at the end. So we love
our advocates.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
On the early side who are planning those those seeds
and thinking about what it's going to look like on
the other end of this whole thing, and we try
to get people to buy it.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it's one of those things that
I mean, and I think that's why so many people
come to us.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's just to help navigate.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
You know, when do I start thinking about marketing? You know,
it's not the first thing you should start thinking about,
but it certainly shouldn't be the last one either, you know,
and you take a holistic approach to the whole thing.
When you're planning your whole book writing and publishing journey,
you know, you don't need to have every single step
mapped out.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
But it's good to have a big picture.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
You know, and know when the pieces you know what
pieces need to be in place and what timing so
that you know and that again, that was another need
that you know, that we just saw, like at first
we were just doing writing and editing, just really focused
on the manuscript itself, but so many we just realized
that so many clients needed like they didn't know what
to do next with the book. They didn't know like
(13:17):
what the direction they should take it in, or and
how to get an agent, how to like what what
hybrid public like what's the difference between a hybrid publisher
self publisher and UH and a vanity press and just
and also even once you've decided on the best publishing option,
there's just so many different companies, some of them there's
a lot of bad actors in our space, and so
(13:40):
just navigating that to make sure that they're getting a
really good you know, so just navig in that whole
industry became. We just saw that as such a big
need for for our clients. And because they were coming
to Adah, they were coming to us at a stage
where Avenue and started writing their book you know, we
really felt like we were in an advantageous place to
just help them see the big picture, give them the confidence,
and to make sure that they're you know, they're going
(14:00):
to get what they want out of this whole thing.
So yeah, it's it's it's a fun place to be at,
you know, in their journey and really kind of it
feels great too where you just know that you can
help someone get from you know, achieve their goal and
see the big picture without getting you know, getting involved
with the bad actor or or or making mistakes. That's
a lot of times people that charge into this thing
(14:21):
on their own, they and you know, they end up
spending a lot of time for money doing something that
they if they would have had somebody helping them in
the very beginning to kind of see the big picture.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
A lot of time and money going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So absolutely, that's that's that's where we come into trying
to help direct.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
That you do it.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It's so great and and that's you know, the different
layers of the conversation with an author. That's that's certainly
got to be a space where it is so beneficial
to have a team they are working with. So in
your in your case, a ghost writing firm, you know,
versus a freelancer that you've got different experiences perspective in
the mix. But what are the other things you would
(15:00):
say are And we get the same question on the
PR side, Well, why should I work with you as
an agency versus a PR freelancer? And I know there's a
lot of minds, there's a lot of ideas, there's a
lot of people involved here.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So from your perspective, what are some of those other,
you know, key values that come with working with a
firm versus a.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Kind of a freelancer an independent person directly as in
the ghostwriting stage.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, and it's not for everybody either.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
You know, some people do do well with just a
one on one with a freelancer, but a lot of people,
especially a lot of our clients that are busy professionals
or that just want I mean, it's so less risky
when you're working with the farm than with just an
individual writer because I mean any and you know, and
it could be no fault of anyones, but anything can
(15:44):
happen in a one on one relationship. You know, they
might or that I might change, there might be something
that comes up that that doesn't allow them to continue.
Some there are some freelancers that that do take on
more than what they can handle. And then so you
become you know, you might be you'd become a little
less prioritized than than than than their clients. And so
(16:06):
with a firm, you know, you have you have, it's
a lot less risk because you know, if anything happens
with the primary writer, you know, we we can replace
them with a different writer, and you still have a
whole team that understands the project, knows the big goals,
understands the material. You know, we do you know, we
we have you know, we take we we have transcripts,
we have you know, entire outlines, you have, you have
(16:27):
editors that are on the team, that are working alongside
the whole process. So when we do need, if we
do need to replace, you know, have a new writer
come in. And it could be for any reason, you know,
you know the other it's even just you know, like
not every marriage works out right, you know, but at
certain points, you know, you want to be able to
make sure that you're not losing all of the stuff
(16:48):
that you've got up to that point. And so that
you know, we really allow that transition to be a
lot smoother than having to go and find a new
a new freelancer, a new contract, possibly lose like you know,
some of your equity and in the projects you've been
developing and just the tas that goes into all of that.
So that's one of the major advantages. The other is
(17:08):
just you know, the power of of of of of
of of having multiple professionals and experience on your team.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You know, which.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
When you have an editor that's that's uh that's published
and edited you know, multiple New York Times best selling
books and has been in the industry for a long time,
and you have their experience on board with you through
every stage break from the very beginning planning stage.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I mean our.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Editors some of editors have published, edited, published more than
six hundred books through publisher as a sure, and so
you have that kind of experience working with you all
along the way to make sure that your your that
your book is making sense, that it's holding together, and
that it's going to be something that that readers want
to read. And then of course, just like the just
(17:54):
the keeping the trains on on time, you know element,
you know.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Having edger that's you know, you know, it's good to
have you know, there's a reason.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Why you have a conductor of an orchestra, you know,
I mean it's good to have someone that's, yeah, all
the creative people online on the right schedule, making sure
that all the parts and pieces are fitting together properly
and it's moving forward.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
So those things we just find have so much, just.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Have a lot of value, add a lot of value
to that process that you just don't get in a
one on one relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Sure sure, creative as we know, we can certainly go
off track sometimes with things and big ideas.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And run in all directions. So it is so helpful to.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Have that accountability and those timelines to stick to again
always kind of working for those end goals that no
one has in mind, and those backup layers of support.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
So, Kevin, you were a big part of it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Our team was too, of the first ever gathering of
the Ghost event earlier this year, which was just such
an exciting exposing fully of the ghost running run. I
don't think it's necessarily always been you know, I think
recently it's not been as behind the scenes as it
was in many years past, but it's been this constant
(19:09):
kind of you know, we're talking about our ghostly theme here,
like coming out of the shadows more and more and more,
and so you know, i'd really love to hear kind
of what you feel some of the biggest changes in
ghostwriting has been in recent years, and maybe even kind
of looking ahead too. I've just love to see that
those who are putting, you know, so much effort and
(19:31):
work into this are are being accredited as part of
the projects. More and more, there seems to be a
lot more openness to sharing that someone is using a
ghost writer and such. And of course, you know, so
many people read the big you know, a piece about
Prince Harry's.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Memoir and the ghost writing of there.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So we'll just love to hear, you know, in reflection
of a big event like that, for bringing all the
ghost writers out of the shadows and together in New
York City and kind of what you see ahead for
the space and publishing.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, it was a great event to be a
part of, and I was really happy to contribute. And
you know, I mean, you're you're you're bang on though,
I mean, that's the biggest change.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I think it's just been people.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
There's just been a lot, Yeah, ghostwriters I feel like
fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Ago, it was it was just it was, it was
it's just taken.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
For granted that the ghostwriter would not be mentioned, and
there was just a stigma about like it was like
people really wanted they didn't want you to know it
would be really embarrassed and feel like they're or something
they found out ghostwriter. And a lot of that comes
from just a real lack of understanding about what a
ghostwriter is, and also a lack of understanding that every
book is a team effort. You know, there's no there's
no book out there. I mean, you know, whether it's
(20:45):
Ernest Heming Why or Shakespeare. I mean, there was no
nothing been written that hasn't been edited or worked on
or had some kind of process that involves more than
one person.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
So obviously ghost writing.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Is is is an extreme version of that. But you know, people,
I think when they thought about ghost writing back then,
at least it was it was just they assumed that
that almost was like you just kind of said, hey,
ghost writer, write me a book about this topic and
get back to me with it, you know, in a
couple of months, and then I'll just put my name
on stamp on it and it'll be mine.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And that's just you know, anyone who's been through the.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Process knows that it is not that you know, the
whole process, right, really mining the brain of the author
and and being that kind of sophisticated pen like you know,
that that voice and figuring out all the and you know,
you're part psychologists, you're part writer. I mean, you're there's
so many elements to it, but all of the information
(21:41):
is coming from the author, So it's really the authors
one hundred percent of the book. And there's just been
this understanding recently, especially the last like ten fifteen years,
just moving towards people understanding that and seeing more credits
on the front covers of books, understanding that it's a
collaboration of people, you know, I mean, it's just.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
You know, people, I.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Think just starting to realize when they're seeing some of
these authors, even like James Patterson, et cetera, with with
so many books out you know, who's who, or even
like a busy ceo that has all these books, like
how are they because writing a book takes you know,
so many hours to write a book, like you know,
obviously they're they're getting some help with with the parts
(22:24):
and pieces that they're not necessarily professionals in. Right, A
CEO is a professor, is an expert, and a lot
in the things that they're doing, as you know, in
leadership or or with their company, but they're unlikely that
they're a professional writer. So just like you get you know,
you hire an accountant to do your taxes, you know, you
hire a writer to make sure that your book is
(22:46):
is well written. Still all your ideas, still all your
you know, thoughts, that's all your content, it's all you.
You're still the author, and I just understanding. So we've
always really pushed, right from the beginning, we've always kind
of pushed our our clients to give credit to the writers,
whether it's even if it's just an editorial credit, just
you know, just some credit where the where, because otherwise
(23:09):
and you would get this a lot fifteen years ago too,
where a lot of writers would be like, oh, I'm
a I'm a gross writer. I've written many published books,
many best sellers. I can't tell you any of them.
I can't tell you anyone I've worked with.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Because yeah, and it's like okay, well that like like.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
How can I I mean, I'm not an untrusting person.
But how do I know, Like I have no idea,
like what what your work is like other than getting
like a writing sample or something.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
But that doesn't really tell the.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Whole story of the whole project or so yeah, you know,
it's really important that that writers are able to have
some sort of credit, some kind of that they're able
to show a body of work. And so that's that's
been a great that's been a really great thing for
writers of this shift because now more and more they
are pushing for it, they're getting credit, they're getting some
(23:53):
kind of acknowledgment, if not cog credit, and they're able
to just add it to their to their lists and
they can even you know, we always tell writers, uh
is even just just ask for any kind of acknowledgment
and then you can have that list of your titles
that you've worked with and you can say something effect, Look,
here's the here's all the titles. I've been acknowledged in.
(24:16):
Some of these of ghosts written, some of them I
was just.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
An editor in it.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I can't tell you which one is necessarily I can
tell you these three I definitely ghost wrote because they
allowed me to give to take that credit but the
rest of these I've been editorial involved, but you know,
at least it gives you a sense of their body
of work.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So that's a big game change.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
And I think because of that, I think you've seen,
You've definitely seen. And this is another change. You know,
the rates have definitely increased dramatic. Oh yeah, like the
fifteen twenty years ago, the top ghost writers were charged
well other than like the you know, the jam Moringers
of the world, the top ghost writers. If you're going
to go look online and you were going to find like,
(24:55):
you know, the best ghostwriters in your and you were
seeing what the price categories were, you have to we
might have like sixty thousand dollars, like seventy five thousand
dollars if it wasn't like some like real well established
famous writer.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Already yeah, on the peripheral here.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah, right, and now that's now that's you know, I mean,
that's I mean, we sell projects into three four hundred
thousand dollars, you know, And it's not unusual. Lots of
ghost writers that are regularly is even as an individual freelancer,
are regularly charging you know, two hundred to three fifty
end up and the ones that are really at the
(25:29):
top level. Like if you got Jarmore and you're who's
you know at this point, it's just you know, that's
like a whole nother category just because of what he's done,
like how how his books have done, and he's he's
a great writer. So but he's you know, he's at
another category but down. But the next level down is
a whole bunch of great like like Dan Paisner and
Michelle Burfer. There's a whole bunch of incredible ghosts that
(25:53):
you know, and their their rates are regularly in you.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Know, the three to even half million range.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
So that's that's definitely something that's that's you like the
inflation on ghost writers. I think a lot of a
lot of these are able to get credit and so
you can show them a list, you can you can
show that you worked with these celebrities, right, which drives
you know, which allows you to get a much higher
price for for your work.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, I mean you get a chance to bolster that
resume up and have those examples and see. You know, however,
many way have best seller or this or that attached
to them, and it just yeah, it's hard to you know,
not want to go after something that's going to help
you achieve your goals too and bring that that right
team in into the mix. But yeah, it's certainly I
think again we're seeing this across the board and with
(26:43):
with the publishing industry as a whole. Is just the
you know, the inflation of it all and and kind
of growing. It's the prices, but just the uh, the
just the overall strategy that I think someone and the
mindset and coming into a book project I need to
(27:03):
have in mind of like this is this is a
big thing I'm committing to. I'm committing to a significant
investment here financially, but as you say, from go starting
all the way through the entire process, you're committing your
time too. Even if you are paying three hundred four
hundred and a half million dollars, you know, for someone to
(27:24):
write your book for you, you're still very much a
part of this process. And it is just this entire
thing is is.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Is a commitment unlike what it's been in a year's past.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I think when I started at Smith there just was like, oh,
you want to write a book, you want to talk
about it, Yeah, it's fine, just go just go do
that and you know, you didn't have to think about
all these other layers of who do I need to
be for through which platforms and at what points when
you know along the way and it's just there's there
is there's so much more to the entire process, something
(27:57):
that's there's ever been before having to guide you.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It's important, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know, we we
get a lot of thought leaders and business clients that
you know, for them it's it's it's an investment because
it there's.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And it has a good ro o I for a
lot of them.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
I mean it's something you know, the book really shows
thought leadership, shows authority in the space. It's it's easy
to market a book and and and you know it
looks good on your website, looks good.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
On your LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
I mean it also helps to you know, I mean,
a book can have great value for your for your company,
or for just like consolidating your thoughts into a single
you know, a single book that you can give out
to thousands of people instead of having thousands of times.
I mean, is so a lot we're seeing a lot
of that, and I think I think because there's so
many there is like that has really risen you know
(28:48):
just this and and and Lise of the Hybrid Publisher
for exactly this reason, right, because a lot of times
it's not book sales. That's like, the book sales is
not the ro o I for for these these clients
in fact books book sales, I mean a lot of them,
you know a lot of them, you know, financially, I
mean the even if they did have a best seller,
(29:10):
the amount of money that they would earn from it
wouldn't really be a life changing thing anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And it's really hard to make money exactly. Yeah, book
a terrible investment if you're looking at just like, you know,
book sales, you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Know, the money from books.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Yeah, go to the SMP if you're just looking for
you know, but if it's on book sales. But if
the investment is in what it does for you, your platform,
your you're authority in the space. Like can you get like,
if you spend quarter million on a book over the
course of the next ten, fifteen, twenty years, are you
going to earn back a quarter million of clients of
(29:42):
value or whatever it is that you want to.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Bout speaking fees? Yep?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Right, all of.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
These things you know in the book Last Forever like
twenty thirty years from now, if Google's still around, you know,
you google your name, that book.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Is gonna be one of the first things that comes up.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
And if you've hit the best seller that, you know,
thirty years from now, you're still New York Times best
Selling Author or or USA today by selling actional best
selling author, whatever it is. So those things have big value.
And so I think that's also part of what has
has increased the value and price point on these things,
just because like those things have such value and they
(30:17):
last a long time, I mean, and and so you
want to make sure that if you're going to go
do this, you're going to be working with the very best,
and if you're going to have that kind of investment, that.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
You're working with people that have had success in before.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
So but we do see a lot of that, and
the rise of the hybrid, I mean, the rise of
the hybrid has been like like the grostriating and hybrid
publishing have both really co benefited because because hybrid publishing
and of course is giving is given the opportunity for
for for someone a publisher, a publisher publishers books. It's
(30:49):
a business that is based on selling books, right like
if the book doesn't sell, that's a fail, that's that
book has failed.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
With the hybrid.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Publishers totally the pain for the publishing that way, that's
giving anyone an access point. So any business or whatever
they can get the book, they can get it professionally published, written,
et cetera. They have a hybrid publisher publish it, and
they're they're checking all their boxes of what the book
is for them, what the ROI with the value is
for them without having to, you know, without having to
(31:19):
prove to a publisher that the book is going to
sell you know, ten thousand or more copies. So the
hybrid publisher the rise of that because before the publishers there.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Were really they were really garbage. They were really terrible.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Like you know, twenty years not very many good hybrid
like pay to play publishers. But now they do a
really good job. They have their high quality, the editorial
quality is really really high, so you're able to you're
able to check all the boxes of what of what
you're looking for in a book and the guarantee that
(31:51):
you can make it happen. So having that kind of
real professional hybrid publisher has has really spiked ghost writing
business because it's given so many more people now have
a way to get the book out there in a
way that they're proud of and that's going to serve
their goals. So that's really I mean, that's definitely brought
a lot of business to ghost writing.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, and we've seen it on our side on the
other side as well, and just like, hey, we've you know,
we've done everything so far.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Now we need to get it out there to the market.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And you know, we are huge fans of the hybrid
is actually a big part of kind of our evolution
as a company too, and starting off with working with
independently published authors and hey, that one tries out hybrid
for the first time, and then that one, you know,
worked with Wiley for the first time, let's just say,
and then we get we got to know the Wiley.
So it's just that's been a big part of our
evolution too. But I love seeing that. You know, again,
(32:42):
when you're making that investment in ghostwriting, there was, like
I said before, like this question mark of like, well,
I'm making this investment, but I don't know if it's
going to get published.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I don't know if anybody's going to pick it.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Up and it is I'm making the right choice here
if it doesn't get published on the other side, and
now there is this fantastic option and I mean, there's
so many fantastic hybrids that are out there, but I
love too that there is that, you know, that that
control over intellectual property too, so you still have that
really strong brand alignment and that clarity and your messaging
(33:13):
and how that continues moving forward, like everything from from
timing sometimes of when it comes out to to you know,
just and also again still working to achieve certain like
book centric goals, whether it's the best seller or whatever
it might be. But also you know, not necessarily all
of the pressure that traditional publishing can bring of what
(33:35):
publication date does, like what's going to happen at publication,
but it's also that ability to keep that energy and
the momentum going well after which when we think about
the ROI that we're discussing that where you're actually going
to make money, it's going to be the long term,
it's going to be the twenty you know, fifteen, twenty
thirty years to get that overall return back in all
(33:56):
of those business opportunities, speaking fees, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And so I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
The hybrid supports the more author and brand goals. Then
I think, you know, I see some traditional publishers starting
to starting to shift a little bit in their ways
of doing things, their mentalities around it. But the hybrid
publishing just really offers that that great support for the
for like a lot of thought leaders, speakers and such
(34:21):
that we could work too, are coming in with And
rarely do I talk to someone when I ask what
are your goals for this project? Do they say New
York Times bestseller? I heard Wall Street. I heard bestseller
a lot more. Wall Street Journal was still around, but
I rarely hear bestseller anymore. The first goal that comes
out of someone's mouth is I want this book to
elevate my my platform, my presence, my expertise. I wanted
(34:43):
to help me elevate my speaking fees. I wanted to
ideally bring attention back into these workshops. I facilitate the
courses I teach, you know, whatever else is kind of
living in their brand ecosystems.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So that's that's music to my ears. A lot of
the time, again, we'll go.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Let's go for the best seller, let's work towards those goals.
Together if we haven't in mind, but I love thinking
about the long term impact that we can have in
that work together, and that ultimately is going to help
to kind of circle back and cover that investment and
hopefully a lot more in the end.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then you know, and what's really
nice about it is that you can you just know,
like you can like you know, you geart, like you
can do the whole you can map it all out right.
You know you're going to get published, so so like
you know, maybe twenty five years ago, your your options
if you're not going to get published. So so let's
say you're starting out you want to write a book,
(35:37):
but you don't know that it's a publisher going to
pick it up. So and if you can't write it, now,
you're investing all this money into a writer to help
work with you to write this book without any assurance
that that book is actually going to get published at all. Right,
so there's a big question mark and risk factor there,
and your only backup option is a really terrible vanity
(35:57):
press that everyone's going to laugh at you because it's
so low quality. You know, they've messed up the binding
and you know, whatever it is I mean they were
really bad, and also everyone knew like if they had
that label on it, and everyone knew like, oh, that's
you just paid to have that published, and it was
really looked down upon. But now you can start from
the very beginning. You can know with certainty that you're
going to have a good publisher, that it's going to
(36:18):
get out there.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
You can do your whole timeline that.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
With traditional publishing timelight could be tricky because you don't
know how long it's going to take you to get
it's going to take you to get the publishing deal.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Once you get the deal the publisher, you might be
like a year and a half out two years maybe
before that book come out. Whereas with hybrids you can
accelerate that whole thing. I mean we've done books where
from zero to publication with six months that includes writing
the book. You know, you really condensed the timeline and
you have all these assurances, so you can start with
(36:48):
complete confidence that you're going to be able to achieve
your publishing goals, which is a game changer compared to
what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
And a lot of our business is like a lot
of people they're like, Okay, I want to go traditional publishing,
We'll do the book proposal, but then they know they
have this backup plan, right, so they'll still they stop
them from traditional publishing.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
They'll still We'll still do.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
The proposal, pitch it sure agent or agent it ourselves.
But then at least you know that if Plan A
doesn't work out, you've got a really solid Plan B.
So there's all these assurances that you just you know
that you didn't have before. So that that's a that's
that's the game changer.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, oh absolutely, But Kevin, I have one last quick
question for you, and then we're going to wrap up today.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
What is one.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Key point of advice or one question you would encourage
an author to ask or to to bring up when
they're working on finding the right ghost writer for their project.
What's that one key thing that you think is most
important for the author to consider when they're finding that
right partner in those early stages.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Yeah, you know, I would say the one. I mean,
chemistry is is definitely key. I mean, you've got to
have someone you work well with. But I get I
think the caution there is find someone that works that
you work well with, but that also pushes you, right,
I mean you you you want to have someone that's
really digging, that really draws out your inconsistencies, that that
can really see what you know, the things that you're
(38:16):
not seeing and and and bring that out.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
And put it all together. You know, when you're talking when.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
You're interviewing writers, which is is you know and you're
looking at their list obviously you know, make sure you
make sure this date age, there's no you should never
be hiring a writer that doesn't have a list of
some of some titles that that they can point to
that's going to give you confidence unless you're at a
very low budget, which you know, and that's a whole
nother approach to getting a writer. But if if you
(38:43):
have the budget for a gross writer, there's no do
not like make sure you're you're you're look like they
should have titles, you should they should have titles that
you can trust, that that you can look up and
see that there's sales and reviews and that there's you know,
or it's a or it's somebody from a business that's notable,
Like they should have some titles that speak to their
professionalism in this in the industry. So that's like a baseline.
(39:06):
Make sure that's there, but then after that, when you're
interviewing them, you know who's like I think the number
one advice is go with go with chemistry first, but
with a caveat of like, make sure it's someone like
the chemistry should be someone that's making you think, that's
bringing you to the next level. That's not just like
a social experience for you. They might get along really well,
but that doesn't necessarily make them the best writer. So
(39:28):
that's what I mean by chemistry.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
But now that would be my impart love it.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
It's so important you've got to find that strong partner.
But experience in your face certainly is critical there too.
And wonderful, well, Kevin, this has been such a great conversation.
I had like a bunch of other questions that I
here too. We just kept going forever, and absolutely it is.
(39:54):
It's always great speaking with you again. I hope everybody
has learned here to We share a lot of similar
understandings and values and uh and perspectives in this in
this world of publishing. And I continue to give so
much credit to anyone who is willing to embark on
the author journey. It is not for the faint of heart.
(40:16):
It is not for it is not an easy one.
It comes with many decisions along the way, and I
can think of a better place to start than with
you and your team and getting that process underway. So
thank you so much for joining us today. Where do
you want people to go to to learn more about you?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
K A A? Where is the best best places?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, our website is probably the best. K A writing
dot com, So okay A writing the writing a book
dot com. And yeah, but you know we're really accessible available,
you know, call email, whatever. We're happy to hop on
a call and and you know there's no charge to
get on a call and just have a free consultation
about the industry and and your book and what what
(40:58):
we can do to help. And you know, we're very
realistic with with what your options are. And you know,
we serve all publishing models, so there's no we're very
agnostic in terms of which publishing model that authors want
to use, but we have experience and success in all
of them. So yeah, we're happy to to kind of
unbiased advice.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Fantastic. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us.
Kevin excited for everyone to tune in here and learn
more in the conversation as well as in connecting with
your team afterwards.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
For everyone who has.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Been listening in today, you can please subscribe and you know,
tune into some of our other episodes as well. You
can learn more about Smith Publicity at Smith Publicity dot com.
Really appreciate you all being here and have a wonderful day.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Smith
Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
To reach us and learn about our many services, visit
Smith Publicity dot dot com or send us an email
Speaker 4 (42:01):
To info at Smith Publicity dot com
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights, and advice from the best in the
publishing industry. Hello everyone, and welcome to the All Things
Book Marketing Podcast. I am your host today Marisa Eigenbrud,
the President and partner at Smith Publicity, and today I
(00:22):
am super excited as we talk about all things ghostwriting.
No better time than the month of October to have
Kevin Anderson joining us today. Kevin Anderson longtime friend of
Smith Publicities, and he is the CEO and founder of
Kevin Anderson and Associates.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Kevin, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Of course, my pleasure. Thanks for having me wonderful.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So I'm just going to give everyone a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Of a bio background or on you first, and then
we'll jump into some awesome questions and discussion points today. So,
Kevin Anderson is a number one New York Times best
selling editor, a number one national best selling author, and
an entrepreneur and founder of multiple seven and eight figure
editorial service businesses.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
He's a busy guy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
His flagship company, Kevin Anderson and Associates KAA, has offices
in New York, LA, Nashville, and London and serves more
than five hundred authors per year while supporting a network
of five hundred plus freelance writers and editors. Ka's in
office staff of thirty former Big Five executive editors, literary
(01:29):
agents and best selling writers have combined to produce more
than two hundred New York Times bestsellers, six hundred national bestsellers,
and launch five thousand plus first time authors.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Some big numbers there.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So great, serving a wide range of celebrities, spot laiders.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And inspirational authors.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
KAA is responsible for launching the number one New York
Times bestselling YA series Five Nights at Freddy's by Scott Cowthorn,
the New York Times bestseller Welcome to un Mifflin, The
Ultimate Oral History of the Office by actor Brian Bogartner
Boegartner and former NBC co chairman Ben Silverman, and the
(02:12):
Wall Street Journal bestseller Built Not Born by multi billionaire
Tom Golisano, among many others. This also goes into Kevin's
other founding businesses and Kevin is originally from Canada, currently
lives in Boston with his wife, four young children, and
a red lab named Marbella. Kevin somewhere incredibly busy and
(02:39):
and just such an incredible career and track record within KAA.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
But let's go before it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Before ka for a minute here, tell us all about
how you got into ghostwriting.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Yeah, you know, it was never part of the plan
to get into ghost writing. It kind of just happened.
One thing kind of led to another. You know, when
I was in at school, I started working for a
tutoring company. And yeah, I'll try to keep I'll try
to keep the story short. It's one I go into
a lot of detail and when I'm on the business podcast.
(03:11):
But but but basically, you know, I started tutoring and
just realized that I really loved it and that, you know,
instead of working for somebody else, I could do better
on my own.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And I started advertising.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
For that service and I and I got so busy
that you know, I had more than I could handle.
So it just made sense to start hiring, you know,
my friends I was at I was doing my graduate
work at Harvard, so I had a really great network
of really of really great you know, potential tutors and
you know, especially from the English and Philosophy departments, and
and so so it started out as like a tutoring business,
(03:46):
just local to the Cambridge Boston area.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But then you know.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Things you know online, we were advertising online. We're actually
advertising through Craigslist of all things. Uh yeah, and some
people are started finding us from from other you know,
remotely and reaching out and and so at that point
we you know, and tutoring was so it was it
wasn't it was.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It was tough, you.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Know, like I mean, every you know, every client you'd
only be with for like an hour or two a week.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
There was a lot of logistics issues.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And then when people started reaching out online for online tutoring,
it just you know, it just made so much sense.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So we moved in that direction pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And then you know, advent of PayPal and things like
that will allowed us to do you know, make safe
transactions you know, across the country. But then we grew
this core of primarily just doing editing and tutoring. But
it was mostly I could relate it, you know. It
wasn't anything to do with books at first or ghost
writing of course, but but over but one day it
(04:49):
was actually a small a small hybrid publisher. Actually, I
would I would say it's more of a vanity press
than than what we call the publisher. Back then, there
was a lot more it was there's a lot more
of those kind of big vanity presses there weren't. There
weren't these great hybrid tis out now. And anyway, they
reached out and they were doing like thirty books a week.
It was the kind of press that you pay, like,
(05:10):
you know, thirty thousand dollars to have a book out,
and they all scratch the others backs and all the authors,
their other authors are endorsing their books and whatnot. Anyway,
they time with copy editing, so they hired they wanted
they were impressed with the Harvard credentials on our team,
and they wanted us to copy.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Edit their books.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And this just was like, this was a game changer
for us because we were used to tutoring and editing
and looking at like you know, ten to fifty page
like really thick academic type stuff and you know, editing
these books and these were really you know, they were
not the greatest books, but they were easy to read
and usually pretty poorly written.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But it's a lot more fun and it was a
lot and it.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Was easy, and it was much bigger projects at a time,
So it just came natural to kind of transition the
whole business that direction. So I at some point I
split up the company. I have another company that still
worked because it's it's transitioned a little bit. It just
works with people in the PhD process. It's called dissertation.
It has a UK office as well, called thesis editor
because in the UK they call dissertations thesis and THESS dissertations.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's like the opposite. But anyway, so they and that
still is.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
A staff of PhDs that that work in the academic field.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And then our and then.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
I I I broke off KAA to be its own
thing that really just focused on on the book industry
and you know, uh and editing in terms of ghostwriting.
How it got there, I mean it was just one
thing led to another. So they at one point they
sent us a manuscript that was just in such bad
shape that we said, look, we can't even edit this,
like we're not even at a point where we can
(06:43):
make this book work editorially, Like it needs to be
totally rewritten. They just said, so, well, can you rewrite it?
And you'll never never read Before no one on the
team had written a book or rewrote wrote rewrote a
book and and we said, sure, we can, we can
do that, and and so I I, you know, I
found somebody that could do it, that had written books before.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And and then again, you.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Know, the price point and everything was you know, it
was a bigger, bigger price point per ticket than what
we were doing. It just made sense from a business
standpoint to move in that direction. You know, it was
a long time ago. Since then, you know, we've hired
you know, you know, former executive editors from big five houses.
We most of our authors now have multiple bestsellers in
their own name. But at the time we were just
(07:26):
you know, we were just it was really just grinding
it out and any work that we thought we could do, we.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Would do it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
And and we never said no, you know, to to
any opportunities.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
That's where it all kind of started. Was one thing
to kind of led to another.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, yeah, I there's so much about those kind of
earlier days you've fallen kind of accidentally and in those spaces,
and and that's was very similar to our fat or
Dance story too, of kind of working alongside someone in
some other PR activities and.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They were writing a book and he said, hey, can
you promote my book. It's it's self published.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
We can't tell you know, nobody else wanted to touch
self published books. And yeah, Dan was like, yeah, but
absolutely I'll give it a go. Sure, you know, why
not and I kind of, you know, all all spurred
and the snowball got bigger and bigger from there too.
So it's it's so exciting to hear that story and
the power of just saying yes and get you know,
(08:24):
trying something new and.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Seeing where it goes.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It's it's so not it's not that far connected or
disconnected from the other work that you were doing. It
was just kind of always taking it to this next level,
the next level, this next level, and seeing how how
it would evolve. But but what incredible you know again,
and the journey is certainly not over. Those numbers are
going to get bigger and bigger, and that we shared
the bios the years go on here, Kevin, and these
(08:47):
things continue to grow in such exciting ways for for
your team.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, thinking for that.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah, it's just you know, and the thing about you
think about those early days, right, you're just saying yes,
but you're making sure you're taking respect pssibility.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
To do it right. You know, I wouldn't have the plan.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
But I always had the confidence and and also the
responsibility to make sure that I was going to deliver
on that. So you know, on the phone the publisher,
you're saying, of course we can do that, which means,
of course, I'm going to figure.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Out how to make that happen. I don't know exactly
how right now.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And then you know, that just led to discovering writers
and freelancers and figuring out the whole business.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
And and that's really happened publishing altogether. I mean, it
was all a learn as we went.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
We didn't come from a publishing background as a company,
is something that we really learned as we went, and
that was I felt like that really was a big
advantage to us because we could really speak our author's language,
because they a lot of the people are coming to us,
you know, they have no idea about the publishing industry.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
They don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
They're afraid of they don't it's very big and complicated,
and there's.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
They don't want to make it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And but we had to learn all those things, you know, ourselves,
kind of the hard way, and we came at it
from perspective that looked at a lot of different elements
of like it wasn't it wasn't just marketing or just writing.
I mean we were really looking at, Okay, what's the
big picture here for this author and how can we
how can we think about the right book for them,
write that book in a way and then figure out
(10:11):
how to publish it in a way that's going to
meet there you know, they're publishing goals and be of
value to them. So we didn't know. None of us
came from that background in publishing, so we had to
just really kind of we've learned it all on our
on our own, through you know, through experience. Yeah, we
feel like that's a good asset our clients because we've
you know, we figured it out we can and so
we're the kind of a good teacher to show them
(10:32):
the ropes, you know, having done it ourselves so many
times from from scratch.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I mean that's that's why we we love working with
you guys too, because we had that same background.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
There's no there was no publishing in the mix over here.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Most of us didn't even the currency, most did not
come from from traditional publishing and such.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I think that it's you.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Know, I I love that anytime your team may bring
someone our way or because we're having a conversation the
other way, to just it's looking at things in a
very holistic approach. It's really thinking about, Okay, we're not
just writing a book here, and we're not. And I
think that there is still a little bit of a disconnect,
truly transparently like there's a disconnector I think in traditional
(11:14):
publishing and with some agents still you know, there's an
old school mentality of we're just kind of thinking about
a book that's going to sell, and not how is
it going to sell?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Who is it going to be sold to?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
It's just like, how do we make this as appealing
to everyone as possible? And I think in today's world,
especially in the power of really Niching.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Down and such, the more you're thinking about from the very.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Beginning, how do I write a book, then publish it,
then market it in a way that's going to really
speak to a specific audience. It's not going to you know,
it's not going to well everybody in right away, but
it's not going to shut out other people. So there's
an opportunity to still grow that connection. I just always
really loved seeing that your team is so much more
(11:59):
than just ghostwriting and editing. And it really is again
that I'm thinking about things from that holistic perspective. Yeah,
and it's us we don't get a chance to control
it that early on. I take so many people. I'm like,
I'm always happy to have a conversation with someone because
if I can just plant those seeds about marketing and publicity,
you know, we're the.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Last shoot to drop at the end. So we love
our advocates.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
On the early side who are planning those those seeds
and thinking about what it's going to look like on
the other end of this whole thing, and we try
to get people to buy it.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it's one of those things that
I mean, and I think that's why so many people
come to us.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's just to help navigate.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
You know, when do I start thinking about marketing? You know,
it's not the first thing you should start thinking about,
but it certainly shouldn't be the last one either, you know,
and you take a holistic approach to the whole thing.
When you're planning your whole book writing and publishing journey,
you know, you don't need to have every single step
mapped out.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
But it's good to have a big picture.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
You know, and know when the pieces you know what
pieces need to be in place and what timing so
that you know and that again, that was another need
that you know, that we just saw, like at first
we were just doing writing and editing, just really focused
on the manuscript itself, but so many we just realized
that so many clients needed like they didn't know what
to do next with the book. They didn't know like
(13:17):
what the direction they should take it in, or and
how to get an agent, how to like what what
hybrid public like what's the difference between a hybrid publisher
self publisher and UH and a vanity press and just
and also even once you've decided on the best publishing option,
there's just so many different companies, some of them there's
a lot of bad actors in our space, and so
(13:40):
just navigating that to make sure that they're getting a
really good you know, so just navig in that whole
industry became. We just saw that as such a big
need for for our clients. And because they were coming
to Adah, they were coming to us at a stage
where Avenue and started writing their book you know, we
really felt like we were in an advantageous place to
just help them see the big picture, give them the confidence,
and to make sure that they're you know, they're going
(14:00):
to get what they want out of this whole thing.
So yeah, it's it's it's a fun place to be at,
you know, in their journey and really kind of it
feels great too where you just know that you can
help someone get from you know, achieve their goal and
see the big picture without getting you know, getting involved
with the bad actor or or or making mistakes. That's
a lot of times people that charge into this thing
(14:21):
on their own, they and you know, they end up
spending a lot of time for money doing something that
they if they would have had somebody helping them in
the very beginning to kind of see the big picture.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
A lot of time and money going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So absolutely, that's that's that's where we come into trying
to help direct.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
That you do it.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It's so great and and that's you know, the different
layers of the conversation with an author. That's that's certainly
got to be a space where it is so beneficial
to have a team they are working with. So in
your in your case, a ghost writing firm, you know,
versus a freelancer that you've got different experiences perspective in
the mix. But what are the other things you would
(15:00):
say are And we get the same question on the
PR side, Well, why should I work with you as
an agency versus a PR freelancer? And I know there's a
lot of minds, there's a lot of ideas, there's a
lot of people involved here.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So from your perspective, what are some of those other,
you know, key values that come with working with a
firm versus a.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Kind of a freelancer an independent person directly as in
the ghostwriting stage.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, and it's not for everybody either.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
You know, some people do do well with just a
one on one with a freelancer, but a lot of people,
especially a lot of our clients that are busy professionals
or that just want I mean, it's so less risky
when you're working with the farm than with just an
individual writer because I mean any and you know, and
it could be no fault of anyones, but anything can
(15:44):
happen in a one on one relationship. You know, they
might or that I might change, there might be something
that comes up that that doesn't allow them to continue.
Some there are some freelancers that that do take on
more than what they can handle. And then so you
become you know, you might be you'd become a little
less prioritized than than than than their clients. And so
(16:06):
with a firm, you know, you have you have, it's
a lot less risk because you know, if anything happens
with the primary writer, you know, we we can replace
them with a different writer, and you still have a
whole team that understands the project, knows the big goals,
understands the material. You know, we do you know, we
we have you know, we take we we have transcripts,
we have you know, entire outlines, you have, you have
(16:27):
editors that are on the team, that are working alongside
the whole process. So when we do need, if we
do need to replace, you know, have a new writer
come in. And it could be for any reason, you know,
you know the other it's even just you know, like
not every marriage works out right, you know, but at
certain points, you know, you want to be able to
make sure that you're not losing all of the stuff
(16:48):
that you've got up to that point. And so that
you know, we really allow that transition to be a
lot smoother than having to go and find a new
a new freelancer, a new contract, possibly lose like you know,
some of your equity and in the projects you've been
developing and just the tas that goes into all of that.
So that's one of the major advantages. The other is
(17:08):
just you know, the power of of of of of
of of having multiple professionals and experience on your team.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You know, which.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
When you have an editor that's that's uh that's published
and edited you know, multiple New York Times best selling
books and has been in the industry for a long time,
and you have their experience on board with you through
every stage break from the very beginning planning stage.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I mean our.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Editors some of editors have published, edited, published more than
six hundred books through publisher as a sure, and so
you have that kind of experience working with you all
along the way to make sure that your your that
your book is making sense, that it's holding together, and
that it's going to be something that that readers want
to read. And then of course, just like the just
(17:54):
the keeping the trains on on time, you know element,
you know.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Having edger that's you know, you know, it's good to
have you know, there's a reason.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Why you have a conductor of an orchestra, you know,
I mean it's good to have someone that's, yeah, all
the creative people online on the right schedule, making sure
that all the parts and pieces are fitting together properly
and it's moving forward.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
So those things we just find have so much, just.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Have a lot of value, add a lot of value
to that process that you just don't get in a
one on one relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Sure sure, creative as we know, we can certainly go
off track sometimes with things and big ideas.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And run in all directions. So it is so helpful to.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Have that accountability and those timelines to stick to again
always kind of working for those end goals that no
one has in mind, and those backup layers of support.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
So, Kevin, you were a big part of it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Our team was too, of the first ever gathering of
the Ghost event earlier this year, which was just such
an exciting exposing fully of the ghost running run. I
don't think it's necessarily always been you know, I think
recently it's not been as behind the scenes as it
was in many years past, but it's been this constant
(19:09):
kind of you know, we're talking about our ghostly theme here,
like coming out of the shadows more and more and more,
and so you know, i'd really love to hear kind
of what you feel some of the biggest changes in
ghostwriting has been in recent years, and maybe even kind
of looking ahead too. I've just love to see that
those who are putting, you know, so much effort and
(19:31):
work into this are are being accredited as part of
the projects. More and more, there seems to be a
lot more openness to sharing that someone is using a
ghost writer and such. And of course, you know, so
many people read the big you know, a piece about
Prince Harry's.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Memoir and the ghost writing of there.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So we'll just love to hear, you know, in reflection
of a big event like that, for bringing all the
ghost writers out of the shadows and together in New
York City and kind of what you see ahead for
the space and publishing.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, it was a great event to be a
part of, and I was really happy to contribute. And
you know, I mean, you're you're you're bang on though,
I mean, that's the biggest change.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I think it's just been people.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
There's just been a lot, Yeah, ghostwriters I feel like
fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Ago, it was it was just it was, it was
it's just taken.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
For granted that the ghostwriter would not be mentioned, and
there was just a stigma about like it was like
people really wanted they didn't want you to know it
would be really embarrassed and feel like they're or something
they found out ghostwriter. And a lot of that comes
from just a real lack of understanding about what a
ghostwriter is, and also a lack of understanding that every
book is a team effort. You know, there's no there's
no book out there. I mean, you know, whether it's
(20:45):
Ernest Heming Why or Shakespeare. I mean, there was no
nothing been written that hasn't been edited or worked on
or had some kind of process that involves more than
one person.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
So obviously ghost writing.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Is is is an extreme version of that. But you know, people,
I think when they thought about ghost writing back then,
at least it was it was just they assumed that
that almost was like you just kind of said, hey,
ghost writer, write me a book about this topic and
get back to me with it, you know, in a
couple of months, and then I'll just put my name
on stamp on it and it'll be mine.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And that's just you know, anyone who's been through the.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Process knows that it is not that you know, the
whole process, right, really mining the brain of the author
and and being that kind of sophisticated pen like you know,
that that voice and figuring out all the and you know,
you're part psychologists, you're part writer. I mean, you're there's
so many elements to it, but all of the information
(21:41):
is coming from the author, So it's really the authors
one hundred percent of the book. And there's just been
this understanding recently, especially the last like ten fifteen years,
just moving towards people understanding that and seeing more credits
on the front covers of books, understanding that it's a
collaboration of people, you know, I mean, it's just.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
You know, people, I.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Think just starting to realize when they're seeing some of
these authors, even like James Patterson, et cetera, with with
so many books out you know, who's who, or even
like a busy ceo that has all these books, like
how are they because writing a book takes you know,
so many hours to write a book, like you know,
obviously they're they're getting some help with with the parts
(22:24):
and pieces that they're not necessarily professionals in. Right, A
CEO is a professor, is an expert, and a lot
in the things that they're doing, as you know, in
leadership or or with their company, but they're unlikely that
they're a professional writer. So just like you get you know,
you hire an accountant to do your taxes, you know, you
hire a writer to make sure that your book is
(22:46):
is well written. Still all your ideas, still all your
you know, thoughts, that's all your content, it's all you.
You're still the author, and I just understanding. So we've
always really pushed, right from the beginning, we've always kind
of pushed our our clients to give credit to the writers,
whether it's even if it's just an editorial credit, just
you know, just some credit where the where, because otherwise
(23:09):
and you would get this a lot fifteen years ago too,
where a lot of writers would be like, oh, I'm
a I'm a gross writer. I've written many published books,
many best sellers. I can't tell you any of them.
I can't tell you anyone I've worked with.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Because yeah, and it's like okay, well that like like.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
How can I I mean, I'm not an untrusting person.
But how do I know, Like I have no idea,
like what what your work is like other than getting
like a writing sample or something.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
But that doesn't really tell the.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Whole story of the whole project or so yeah, you know,
it's really important that that writers are able to have
some sort of credit, some kind of that they're able
to show a body of work. And so that's that's
been a great that's been a really great thing for
writers of this shift because now more and more they
are pushing for it, they're getting credit, they're getting some
(23:53):
kind of acknowledgment, if not cog credit, and they're able
to just add it to their to their lists and
they can even you know, we always tell writers, uh
is even just just ask for any kind of acknowledgment
and then you can have that list of your titles
that you've worked with and you can say something effect, Look,
here's the here's all the titles. I've been acknowledged in.
(24:16):
Some of these of ghosts written, some of them I
was just.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
An editor in it.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I can't tell you which one is necessarily I can
tell you these three I definitely ghost wrote because they
allowed me to give to take that credit but the
rest of these I've been editorial involved, but you know,
at least it gives you a sense of their body
of work.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So that's a big game change.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
And I think because of that, I think you've seen,
You've definitely seen. And this is another change. You know,
the rates have definitely increased dramatic. Oh yeah, like the
fifteen twenty years ago, the top ghost writers were charged
well other than like the you know, the jam Moringers
of the world, the top ghost writers. If you're going
to go look online and you were going to find like,
(24:55):
you know, the best ghostwriters in your and you were
seeing what the price categories were, you have to we
might have like sixty thousand dollars, like seventy five thousand
dollars if it wasn't like some like real well established
famous writer.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Already yeah, on the peripheral here.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah, right, and now that's now that's you know, I mean,
that's I mean, we sell projects into three four hundred
thousand dollars, you know, And it's not unusual. Lots of
ghost writers that are regularly is even as an individual freelancer,
are regularly charging you know, two hundred to three fifty
end up and the ones that are really at the
(25:29):
top level. Like if you got Jarmore and you're who's
you know at this point, it's just you know, that's
like a whole nother category just because of what he's done,
like how how his books have done, and he's he's
a great writer. So but he's you know, he's at
another category but down. But the next level down is
a whole bunch of great like like Dan Paisner and
Michelle Burfer. There's a whole bunch of incredible ghosts that
(25:53):
you know, and their their rates are regularly in you.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Know, the three to even half million range.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
So that's that's definitely something that's that's you like the
inflation on ghost writers. I think a lot of a
lot of these are able to get credit and so
you can show them a list, you can you can
show that you worked with these celebrities, right, which drives
you know, which allows you to get a much higher
price for for your work.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, I mean you get a chance to bolster that
resume up and have those examples and see. You know, however,
many way have best seller or this or that attached
to them, and it just yeah, it's hard to you know,
not want to go after something that's going to help
you achieve your goals too and bring that that right
team in into the mix. But yeah, it's certainly I
think again we're seeing this across the board and with
(26:43):
with the publishing industry as a whole. Is just the
you know, the inflation of it all and and kind
of growing. It's the prices, but just the uh, the
just the overall strategy that I think someone and the
mindset and coming into a book project I need to
(27:03):
have in mind of like this is this is a
big thing I'm committing to. I'm committing to a significant
investment here financially, but as you say, from go starting
all the way through the entire process, you're committing your
time too. Even if you are paying three hundred four
hundred and a half million dollars, you know, for someone to
(27:24):
write your book for you, you're still very much a
part of this process. And it is just this entire
thing is is.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Is a commitment unlike what it's been in a year's past.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I think when I started at Smith there just was like, oh,
you want to write a book, you want to talk
about it, Yeah, it's fine, just go just go do
that and you know, you didn't have to think about
all these other layers of who do I need to
be for through which platforms and at what points when
you know along the way and it's just there's there
is there's so much more to the entire process, something
(27:57):
that's there's ever been before having to guide you.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It's important, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know, we we
get a lot of thought leaders and business clients that
you know, for them it's it's it's an investment because
it there's.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And it has a good ro o I for a
lot of them.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
I mean it's something you know, the book really shows
thought leadership, shows authority in the space. It's it's easy
to market a book and and and you know it
looks good on your website, looks good.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
On your LinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
I mean it also helps to you know, I mean,
a book can have great value for your for your company,
or for just like consolidating your thoughts into a single
you know, a single book that you can give out
to thousands of people instead of having thousands of times.
I mean, is so a lot we're seeing a lot
of that, and I think I think because there's so
many there is like that has really risen you know
(28:48):
just this and and and Lise of the Hybrid Publisher
for exactly this reason, right, because a lot of times
it's not book sales. That's like, the book sales is
not the ro o I for for these these clients
in fact books book sales, I mean a lot of them,
you know a lot of them, you know, financially, I
mean the even if they did have a best seller,
(29:10):
the amount of money that they would earn from it
wouldn't really be a life changing thing anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And it's really hard to make money exactly. Yeah, book
a terrible investment if you're looking at just like, you know,
book sales, you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Know, the money from books.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Yeah, go to the SMP if you're just looking for
you know, but if it's on book sales. But if
the investment is in what it does for you, your platform,
your you're authority in the space. Like can you get like,
if you spend quarter million on a book over the
course of the next ten, fifteen, twenty years, are you
going to earn back a quarter million of clients of
(29:42):
value or whatever it is that you want to.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Bout speaking fees? Yep?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Right, all of.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
These things you know in the book Last Forever like
twenty thirty years from now, if Google's still around, you know,
you google your name, that book.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Is gonna be one of the first things that comes up.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
And if you've hit the best seller that, you know,
thirty years from now, you're still New York Times best
Selling Author or or USA today by selling actional best
selling author, whatever it is. So those things have big value.
And so I think that's also part of what has
has increased the value and price point on these things,
just because like those things have such value and they
(30:17):
last a long time, I mean, and and so you
want to make sure that if you're going to go
do this, you're going to be working with the very best,
and if you're going to have that kind of investment, that.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
You're working with people that have had success in before.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
So but we do see a lot of that, and
the rise of the hybrid, I mean, the rise of
the hybrid has been like like the grostriating and hybrid
publishing have both really co benefited because because hybrid publishing
and of course is giving is given the opportunity for
for for someone a publisher, a publisher publishers books. It's
(30:49):
a business that is based on selling books, right like
if the book doesn't sell, that's a fail, that's that
book has failed.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
With the hybrid.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Publishers totally the pain for the publishing that way, that's
giving anyone an access point. So any business or whatever
they can get the book, they can get it professionally published, written,
et cetera. They have a hybrid publisher publish it, and
they're they're checking all their boxes of what the book
is for them, what the ROI with the value is
for them without having to, you know, without having to
(31:19):
prove to a publisher that the book is going to
sell you know, ten thousand or more copies. So the
hybrid publisher the rise of that because before the publishers there.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Were really they were really garbage. They were really terrible.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Like you know, twenty years not very many good hybrid
like pay to play publishers. But now they do a
really good job. They have their high quality, the editorial
quality is really really high, so you're able to you're
able to check all the boxes of what of what
you're looking for in a book and the guarantee that
(31:51):
you can make it happen. So having that kind of
real professional hybrid publisher has has really spiked ghost writing
business because it's given so many more people now have
a way to get the book out there in a
way that they're proud of and that's going to serve
their goals. So that's really I mean, that's definitely brought
a lot of business to ghost writing.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, and we've seen it on our side on the
other side as well, and just like, hey, we've you know,
we've done everything so far.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Now we need to get it out there to the market.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And you know, we are huge fans of the hybrid
is actually a big part of kind of our evolution
as a company too, and starting off with working with
independently published authors and hey, that one tries out hybrid
for the first time, and then that one, you know,
worked with Wiley for the first time, let's just say,
and then we get we got to know the Wiley.
So it's just that's been a big part of our
evolution too. But I love seeing that. You know, again,
(32:42):
when you're making that investment in ghostwriting, there was, like
I said before, like this question mark of like, well,
I'm making this investment, but I don't know if it's
going to get published.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I don't know if anybody's going to pick it.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Up and it is I'm making the right choice here
if it doesn't get published on the other side, and
now there is this fantastic option and I mean, there's
so many fantastic hybrids that are out there, but I
love too that there is that, you know, that that
control over intellectual property too, so you still have that
really strong brand alignment and that clarity and your messaging
(33:13):
and how that continues moving forward, like everything from from
timing sometimes of when it comes out to to you know,
just and also again still working to achieve certain like
book centric goals, whether it's the best seller or whatever
it might be. But also you know, not necessarily all
of the pressure that traditional publishing can bring of what
(33:35):
publication date does, like what's going to happen at publication,
but it's also that ability to keep that energy and
the momentum going well after which when we think about
the ROI that we're discussing that where you're actually going
to make money, it's going to be the long term,
it's going to be the twenty you know, fifteen, twenty
thirty years to get that overall return back in all
(33:56):
of those business opportunities, speaking fees, so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And so I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
The hybrid supports the more author and brand goals. Then
I think, you know, I see some traditional publishers starting
to starting to shift a little bit in their ways
of doing things, their mentalities around it. But the hybrid
publishing just really offers that that great support for the
for like a lot of thought leaders, speakers and such
(34:21):
that we could work too, are coming in with And
rarely do I talk to someone when I ask what
are your goals for this project? Do they say New
York Times bestseller? I heard Wall Street. I heard bestseller
a lot more. Wall Street Journal was still around, but
I rarely hear bestseller anymore. The first goal that comes
out of someone's mouth is I want this book to
elevate my my platform, my presence, my expertise. I wanted
(34:43):
to help me elevate my speaking fees. I wanted to
ideally bring attention back into these workshops. I facilitate the
courses I teach, you know, whatever else is kind of
living in their brand ecosystems.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So that's that's music to my ears. A lot of
the time, again, we'll go.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Let's go for the best seller, let's work towards those goals.
Together if we haven't in mind, but I love thinking
about the long term impact that we can have in
that work together, and that ultimately is going to help
to kind of circle back and cover that investment and
hopefully a lot more in the end.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then you know, and what's really
nice about it is that you can you just know,
like you can like you know, you geart, like you
can do the whole you can map it all out right.
You know you're going to get published, so so like
you know, maybe twenty five years ago, your your options
if you're not going to get published. So so let's
say you're starting out you want to write a book,
(35:37):
but you don't know that it's a publisher going to
pick it up. So and if you can't write it, now,
you're investing all this money into a writer to help
work with you to write this book without any assurance
that that book is actually going to get published at all. Right,
so there's a big question mark and risk factor there,
and your only backup option is a really terrible vanity
(35:57):
press that everyone's going to laugh at you because it's
so low quality. You know, they've messed up the binding
and you know, whatever it is I mean they were
really bad, and also everyone knew like if they had
that label on it, and everyone knew like, oh, that's
you just paid to have that published, and it was
really looked down upon. But now you can start from
the very beginning. You can know with certainty that you're
going to have a good publisher, that it's going to
(36:18):
get out there.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
You can do your whole timeline that.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
With traditional publishing timelight could be tricky because you don't
know how long it's going to take you to get
it's going to take you to get the publishing deal.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Once you get the deal the publisher, you might be
like a year and a half out two years maybe
before that book come out. Whereas with hybrids you can
accelerate that whole thing. I mean we've done books where
from zero to publication with six months that includes writing
the book. You know, you really condensed the timeline and
you have all these assurances, so you can start with
(36:48):
complete confidence that you're going to be able to achieve
your publishing goals, which is a game changer compared to
what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
And a lot of our business is like a lot
of people they're like, Okay, I want to go traditional publishing,
We'll do the book proposal, but then they know they
have this backup plan, right, so they'll still they stop
them from traditional publishing.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
They'll still We'll still do.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
The proposal, pitch it sure agent or agent it ourselves.
But then at least you know that if Plan A
doesn't work out, you've got a really solid Plan B.
So there's all these assurances that you just you know
that you didn't have before. So that that's a that's
that's the game changer.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, oh absolutely, But Kevin, I have one last quick
question for you, and then we're going to wrap up today.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
What is one.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Key point of advice or one question you would encourage
an author to ask or to to bring up when
they're working on finding the right ghost writer for their project.
What's that one key thing that you think is most
important for the author to consider when they're finding that
right partner in those early stages.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Yeah, you know, I would say the one. I mean,
chemistry is is definitely key. I mean, you've got to
have someone you work well with. But I get I
think the caution there is find someone that works that
you work well with, but that also pushes you, right,
I mean you you you want to have someone that's
really digging, that really draws out your inconsistencies, that that
can really see what you know, the things that you're
(38:16):
not seeing and and and bring that out.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
And put it all together. You know, when you're talking when.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
You're interviewing writers, which is is you know and you're
looking at their list obviously you know, make sure you
make sure this date age, there's no you should never
be hiring a writer that doesn't have a list of
some of some titles that that they can point to
that's going to give you confidence unless you're at a
very low budget, which you know, and that's a whole
nother approach to getting a writer. But if if you
(38:43):
have the budget for a gross writer, there's no do
not like make sure you're you're you're look like they
should have titles, you should they should have titles that
you can trust, that that you can look up and
see that there's sales and reviews and that there's you know,
or it's a or it's somebody from a business that's notable,
Like they should have some titles that speak to their
professionalism in this in the industry. So that's like a baseline.
(39:06):
Make sure that's there, but then after that, when you're
interviewing them, you know who's like I think the number
one advice is go with go with chemistry first, but
with a caveat of like, make sure it's someone like
the chemistry should be someone that's making you think, that's
bringing you to the next level. That's not just like
a social experience for you. They might get along really well,
but that doesn't necessarily make them the best writer. So
(39:28):
that's what I mean by chemistry.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
But now that would be my impart love it.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
It's so important you've got to find that strong partner.
But experience in your face certainly is critical there too.
And wonderful, well, Kevin, this has been such a great conversation.
I had like a bunch of other questions that I
here too. We just kept going forever, and absolutely it is.
(39:54):
It's always great speaking with you again. I hope everybody
has learned here to We share a lot of similar
understandings and values and uh and perspectives in this in
this world of publishing. And I continue to give so
much credit to anyone who is willing to embark on
the author journey. It is not for the faint of heart.
(40:16):
It is not for it is not an easy one.
It comes with many decisions along the way, and I
can think of a better place to start than with
you and your team and getting that process underway. So
thank you so much for joining us today. Where do
you want people to go to to learn more about you?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
K A A? Where is the best best places?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, our website is probably the best. K A writing
dot com, So okay A writing the writing a book
dot com. And yeah, but you know we're really accessible available,
you know, call email, whatever. We're happy to hop on
a call and and you know there's no charge to
get on a call and just have a free consultation
about the industry and and your book and what what
(40:58):
we can do to help. And you know, we're very
realistic with with what your options are. And you know,
we serve all publishing models, so there's no we're very
agnostic in terms of which publishing model that authors want
to use, but we have experience and success in all
of them. So yeah, we're happy to to kind of
unbiased advice.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Fantastic. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us.
Kevin excited for everyone to tune in here and learn
more in the conversation as well as in connecting with
your team afterwards.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
For everyone who has.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Been listening in today, you can please subscribe and you know,
tune into some of our other episodes as well. You
can learn more about Smith Publicity at Smith Publicity dot com.
Really appreciate you all being here and have a wonderful day.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Smith
Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
To reach us and learn about our many services, visit
Smith Publicity dot dot com or send us an email
Speaker 4 (42:01):
To info at Smith Publicity dot com
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